Boston Public Radio Live from the Boston Public Library Friday June 9 2023

what does this mean for Trump's candidacy for the presidency and what does it mean to the tens of millions of people who appear to still support them remember this new indictment or these new indictments is on top of the 34 felony counts in New York after which Trump's numbers grew they didn't diminish there was the E Gene Carroll sex abuse ruling potential new case there not to mention likely additional criminal charges in Georgia over attempting to overturn the election results and possibly more federal charges concerning the January 6th Insurrection so this is a special day not just for our show but for the country we're going to be talking about this for much of today's show we'll hear from Rick's thieves in a bit about the importance of Defending democracies and historian in addition to a travel leader we'll be joined by media Maven Sue O'Connell in the political aspects of all this and retired federal judge Nancy gertner will join us at 12 30 on the mountains of legal implications but we're starting with you you at 877-301-8970 and call or text how are you reacting what are the political implications what are the implications for our country and the first thing I'll say to Marjorie the criminal charges are no longer imminent Marjorie no they have got to rest they have happened we were all making fun of the adjective imminent because we were using it for weeks talking about the charges out of New York and it was dragging and dragging and dragging on these were really quick you know not to ruin the mood here Jim but I just opened the text messages and I am Deluge with text messages from listeners who are telling me to uh they're congratulating me actually because it is today is the 50th anniversary of Secretariat that's beautiful thank you so thank you very much to everyone who shared my joy of secretary at winning the Triple Crown 15 years ago today by the way what I said before is uh uh it obviously shows the Justice uh system works we don't have no idea if Donald Trump's going to be convicted or whether he should be that'll be for a jury or jury needs to decide this jury will obviously be somewhere in Florida but there's a real question what does the Democracy what I said before is true after he was indicted on 34 felony counts by Alvin Bragg in Manhattan in New York City his poll numbers grew his lead over DeSantis group and after your charge criminally by the Department of Justice for a ton of things including as I said conspiracy and obstruction of justice are there going to be more supporters like there were several weeks ago are people finally going to say this person is not fit to be the leader of the United States of America again I think and maybe I'm being overly optimistic that is what it is one thing to be indicted in face charges about paying money to a porn star uh I agree with that I think and cheating in your on your marriage we know that Bill Clinton obviously was cheating on people left and right and the American people didn't really want to hear about it I think when the word Espionage comes forward and when you have a tape as the prosecutors reportedly have of Donald Trump holding up a document we're not sure if he's holding it up because it's an audio tape but he's in bent Minster talking to people uh in the course of the uh Mark Meadows biography people that were researching the biography March Mark Meadows or writing the biography of March Madness Mark Meadows and he's holding up this document allegedly talking that contains information about invading Iran and he's saying I couldn't classify this because I'm no longer the president of the United States I mean he's almost admitted to the crime on tape so and that obviously Iran is one of our long-time enemies I think that is a different level of seriousness it's it's secret military information that could be used against us and is very scary I think that's different but again well let's say you are wrong let's say you are wrong and his whatever it is 52 to 22 lead over DeSantis tomorrow morning the next day is another four points that that conservatives in this country a conservative is not even the right word radicals gravitate to a guy who's now been indicted not just for the Stormy Daniels stuff but for obstruction of justice conspiracy and all these things what happens if they say he's standing up to the government he's standing up to the man this makes us want him even more what happens to democracy then well I think it may be he may likely be the nominee I don't know because there's going to be so many trials going on I mean we're talking about trials it could be going on in the summer of 2024 but uh Biden beat him last time I know people aren't thrilled with buying in a lot of course I think he's too old to be the President Biden beat him in 20 20 I don't think there's any way he's not going to beat him in 2024 particularly with all of this I can't believe you're so casual well I don't I don't think he's indicted in New York and his numbers grow again he was indicted for paying off a porn star because he had an affair that's different it is different than having secrets from the military that could put people in danger including I think most people are very proud of the troops of the United States of America and they don't want to see in any way those troops put in Jeopardy and when you're talking about these waving them around at your bentminster New Jersey golf club that's not a good it's not a good luck Jim can we add one thing to this also one of the things that were I appear to be much more troubled than Marjorie is uh Ron DeSantis his primary rival criticizes the justice system for being weaponized against Donald Trump the Speaker of the House McCarthy comes to his defense in his typical sycophant of La sycophantic lap dog kind of way and here's what Trump said you know true social is his sort of Twitter listen to the language he used and if this is not incitement 2.0 when he talks about Warfare listen to Just a Little Bit of the four minutes of video that Trump posted last night they come after me because now we're leading in the polls Again by a lot against Biden and against the Republicans by a lot but we're leading against Biden by a lot a tremendous amount and we went up to a level that they figured the way they're going to stop us is by using what's called Warfare and that's what it is this is Warfare for the law and we can't let it happen we can't let it happen our country is going to hell we can't let it happen we can't let it happen says the guy who is pretty famous for a cold arms on the part of his troops let's see what happens in the streets let's see what happens in The Ballot Box 877-301-89 obviously be facing serious charges involving the uh January 6th because uh Insurrection although the legal experts say that's going to be much harder than this one which seems I'm not a lawyer but it seems pretty slam dunky to me we'll see when we talk to Nancy gertner about this Dan from Burlington you are first on the Donald Trump indictment hour thank you for calling hey Dan hey guys I just wanted to make a connection between the Hillary Clinton email server and and this document I'm dying to hear this one go ahead but well listen well let me just say up front I'm not a big Donald Trump fan but I would like to say that at the time uh the doj or the FBI I think it was Comey had said that they were able to charge Hillary Clinton for some of the things that happened with their server but I think they did what was right at the time and and decided not to for the sake of the country in the election and I think that this particular incident just reeks a political theater even though you know no one really liked Donald Trump and everyone wants them out excuse me reeks of political Theater which means it's not real what part of what you read about in the last 18 hours about the seven uh charges against Trump appear to be political theater as opposed to fact-based based upon what I'm sure you've been reading for months and months then where's the political theater well it's based only on the fact that he's a former president of the United States or other people like him or not and it's it's better overall for the country and the office not to bring former president well that's a different excuse me that's a different issue that's not political theater May I say something of course I don't think that's what Comey says I think Comey said that she was very very careless that we're not crimes here is is what he said that she that remember there were two investigations one right before the second thing right before the election where he came out went back and looked at her uh emails and again so I I I I I don't think that's not my recollection anyway but anyway I think the thing is Dan that's different is that we have never had I mean we had Richard Nixon with Watergate obviously we've never had someone take documents intentionally which it seems pretty clear he did he's admitted it himself basically um from the and not give them back and they involved uh top secret things involving Iran and War you know what I mean isn't that a different level than even if you did think Hillary Clinton did a bad thing with their emails I don't I really don't want to do this Hillary Clinton thing today with all due respect Dan I I just I I mean if you want okay let him answer okay go ahead Dan yeah so I think that there are some parallels with the Hillary Clinton server because she did destroy the server before anyone really understood exactly okay last question from me if I may let's assume it's political theater as you say and the facts are what the facts are but for the good of the country or whatever the hell you said you don't charge your former president what's the license that gives to the next Donald Trump to do whatever the hell he or she pleases in violation of law just go for it yeah and that that's certainly a fair point and I'm not saying I can predict the future but but I guess what I am saying is that there are some parallels in it we heard you it's unfortunate all the way around okay thank you we appreciate your call uh 877-301-897 his recitation of the facts are different than how so recall say it again well as I said I didn't think they were called they call me did not come to the conclusion that he talked about uh he came to the conclusion of it anyway a77-301-8970 is a number if you want to call us or text us about the indictment of former president Donald Trump shingley in Lexington thanks for calling hi shingling hi hi it's your earlier question about the impact of poles I don't think this will have an impact on the poll numbers because the supporters that are left are faith-based and not motivated by reason they don't believe in reason enough as a methodology I think they believe that reason is overthinking things by you know is called Ivory Tower liberal as they've been checked by it and they're not going to fall for it again so instead they stick to what they believe as their gut feelings what they call Common Sense and then we have seen as you pointed out Pace after case after case where that group has consistently Twisted any kind of evidence to support what they believe in rather than to as informed what they believe in the swing Builders are different stories that they absolutely I'm with you shingly well can I say to both you shingly and Marjorie let's assume you're both right the swing voters do the responsible thing to me it's not just about outcomes next November if 70 million people or 68 million people continue to embrace the candidacy of a guy who is credibly accused of serious crimes against this country what's that mean for the state of this democracy I mean what does that mean well I don't think it's going to be fewer than 70 million the next time around I mean I just think when you there's a call thing going on here I mean we have one thing a cult thing going on with with Donald Trump and he's a very persuasive guy and he's got a lot of Charisma and I think people get sucked into that cult you know we've all heard stories about people that believe these cult leaders and they did commit a mass suicide with themselves and their children so there's these kind of I'm not comparing himself suicide but there is a cult I mean you look at somebody that has been accused of of sexually assaulting 24 women he's been accused of paying hush money to a porn star now uh uh uh accused you're right my apologies defaming well in in the case of the rape Eugene Carroll of defaming her and sexually assaulting her so he's been um found guilty in that case then if you know you hear him on tape asking for 11 000 votes in Georgia and then you hear him on their Insurrection so you know it's kind of like I always say if if if if someone says uh that uh they've been they've been attacked by the robbed by the same man at 7-Eleven it's all over Boston 25 7-Elevens all over Boston and all these different people come forward and say yup Jim broudy he he robbed me with gunpoint the 7-Eleven we don't say you know they're all in the conspiracy they're all lying they say well the evidence is overwhelming and I think that's what people if they're not looking at all these charges against this man over and over in addition to what he did before that which is run a fraudulent University we have to pay 25 million which is run with fraudulent charity his children are born from running Charities it is a crime family in the Trump case so if people don't want to believe that I think there is a cult-like thing going on I don't know that they'll ever believe in reality but thankfully there's not enough people in the cult I don't think shingly thank you much for the call Brendan you're in Sturbridge you're on Boston Public Radio Live from the Boston Public Library welcome Kenny Marjorie happy Friday happy Trump indictment day uh round two here yeah um just wanted to call you know I'm really glad that from being held accountable law here in the United States as soon as president but I'm really worried that this is gonna get the nomination it's somewhat anecdotal but as a brother of mine who has very different politics and I kind of ditched Trump but that was very firmly back in Camp and as you both know Sturbridge is a little bit more of a conservative part of the state I got a neighbor a few house staff who has Daniel had a trump plan in his truck for quite a while it disappeared for maybe six months and now it's right back in the truck so I'm just worried that this you know particularly the length of these indictments as much as they should happen and I'm glad they are it's going to add fuel to the fire for his candidates Brendan did you speak to your brother last night after the indictments uh were reported we have a uh ongoing pessie Texas for several years yeah okay I got it Brendan Brendan I feel your pain I think a lot of families are torn um by this you haven't spoken to your relative have you since yes there's just no point in going there anymore because it is like I said it's like a a cult thing nothing seems to to stick Andrew and Sudbury thank you for coming good morning love your show I've called in several times thanks I'm listening because I'm a colonel defense attorney and have been for 42 years and I have a lot of clients who I representing Superior Court who get indicted and um they get excited and Titans basically are delivered by members of the community not Democrats or Democratic polls and not people with a particular political interest everyday people come in and they weigh the evidence and they decide whether somebody should be prosecuted and that particular point then it goes to a jury and the jury decides whether the person should be convicted or not this is not a political show it's not a political nothing this is a man who's committed crimes as a president and I hear somebody saying well he should be prosecuted after these presidents because after all it's another good thing to do even though he can't have anything done with him except be in peace when he's president which he wasn't because of political parties that are going on and now this man is going to be subjected to a prosecution and at the end of the prosecution if and when he found guilty by another jury which is that he also chosen by people from the community and not by democrats and Democratic polls or people with a political interest the question I'm going to have in my mind is whether the judge is going to have enough thoughts to put this man in jail like my client should be put in jail for things like this well Andrew let me just tell you speaking of that and thank you for your call at 12 30 today we'll be joined by former federal judge Nancy Gartner and Nancy Gardner is pretty outspoken about a judge in Florida to whom this case was just a sign Eileen Cannon who was the judge who went totally in the tank for Donald Trump early in this case and to say she was rebuked by her appellate Coast to Coast uh the court is an understatement and the question is is she chastened or is she going to do another good one for her the guy who appointed her again so stay tuned Andrew thank you for the calling history in the federal Society too so we'll see yeah she does so legal experts called it a bench slap the attacks when she was eviscerated by legal experts well all across the country people that were talking about her weird judgments in the beginnings of the Marlow case but anyway we're going to keep talking about this throughout the show right now though we're going to take a pause well actually we'll ask Rick Steves about this too PBS travel Guru Rick Steves of Rick Steves Europe who's in town for a show Jim and I got to see last night with the boss of pots which was amazing he's going to tell us about that and what else is going got going on uh Rick Steves is here with us in just a second into Boston Public Radio 89 7 gbh we have broadcasting live from the Boston Public Libraries we do every Tuesday and every Friday and we are streaming at youtube.com gbhnews and facebook.com gbh news [Music] foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music] there's nothing new about militaries using nature as a weapon and targeting natural resources the destruction of the kahovka dam in southern Ukraine underscores a devastating consequences that can occur both the human cost and to the environment weaponizing water that's next time on the world these ups are known at three here on gbh news 89 7. support for gbh comes from you and Southeastern records presenting weather veins the new album from Jason Isbell and the 400 unit available now wherever music is sold and the children's trust managers of Safe Kids Thrive helping youth serving organizations Keep Kids Safe from sexual abuse prevention plans at safekidsthrive.org welcome back to Boston Public Radio Jim Brody and madrigan live at the Boston Public Library streaming at youtube.com gbhnews and facebook.com gbh news we just during the break here we had brilliant songwriter singer Mary Goshay who's going to perform later in the show standing doing essentially a selfie of her with our next guest in the background we usually talk to this guy from somewhere in Washington state today's in person at the Boston Public Library Rick Steves Rick's an author television and radio host and the owner Rick Steve's Europe tour group you can catch Rick seeds Europe weeknight 7 30 on gbh2 his radio show travel with Rick Steve Sundays at four on gbh 89 7. he's in town as Marjorie said performing with the Boston Pops last night and tonight Rick Steves Europe is Symphonic Journey Margie and I went last night it was spectacular there may be a few single seats left but it's pretty much sold out and it's really one wonderful coincidence that he's here because a huge theme of last night is the quest from people all over Europe for Freedom democracy and those kinds of things Rick it is thrilling to see in the flesh thanks so much for being here well thank you yeah we're very thrilled to actually see you in person I've met you in person before so this is a big deal that's never seen you before in person so Rick Steve thank you for coming in so tell people what you were doing what was the symbolic Journey about last night oh well this is a symphony I've been giving around the country we made a TV show about it in my own Symphony in Seattle it aired on gbh and all around the country and it's uh it's called Rick Steves Europe a symphonic journey and we touched down in seven different countries in Europe kind of feeling first of all we start with the Star Spangled Banner and we feel how that gives us patriotic Goosebumps and then we remind people you know we get excited about John Philip Souza and Aaron Copeland but when we go to Norway they get excited about Greek and when we go to Vienna they get excited about Strauss and you go to Czech Republic and they get excited about smetana so my job as tour guide is to take that ethnocentric music emotion and take it on the road and kind of broaden it out so we traveled all around Europe visiting countries all with music from that one generation in the late 1800s when they were establishing their their freedoms Norway was breaking away from Sweden Italy was forming Germany was forming the United States was fighting a Civil War and we analyzed it through the lens of music and it was such a fun concert last night it was so great to have you guys there and I thought I was going to get a little rest time this morning but then you guys invited me to drop by I'm just a block away in my hotel so I thought I'd stroll over and it's nice okay you have a nap this afternoon before your next performer it's okay yeah you know uh Margaret most of the people we were sitting around did not know until we whispered to them about the Trump indictments you didn't know until after the show was over and I have to say as it trickled out I kept leaning over to Marjorie or Marjorie to me in between music performances songs that you introduced and then Keith Lockard and Pops played and said how perfect this was for this incredibly important moment in our history can you talk for a minute through the lens of what you produced last night and we'll produce tonight how you see this moment with Trump and our country last night we celebrated Amazing Stories as caring citizens of their countries worked and struggled and and gave their lives for Independence there was no Italy in 1850 there was no Germany in 1850 there was no Bulgaria no Norway they were all they didn't have their democracies they didn't have their freedom France had a Divine Monarch and they finally had to get you know that was the commoners against the aristocracy and so on they fought and they earned that we've got that here in the United States our Revolution inspired their revolutions and now we are flirting with losing it and when I think about what's happening I think where where are the successful countries where are the societies that I really admire and think are doing well they are societies that have trust in their institutions and a great thing to do if you want to derail a democracy is to demolish trust in institutions and I really think that Trump has made a political career out of targeting trusted institutions and if he successfully gets through that he can do what a lot of horrible autocrats have done through history and right now as we speak in different parts of Europe yeah when you think about what's happened to the trust in the Supreme Court just as short amount of time that uh he's been the president United States but you know I want to mention uh how you did this last night um and this is a lot like your TV show you have these great scenes my favorite I must admit were the scenes of these castles that built up at the tippy top of these I don't know if you want to call them mountains but they're pretty stupid bills tell us about some of the visuals that you have last night to go with the pieces Marjorie the fun last night with our symphony was to merge the Beautiful music with the beautiful images from our public television series and then I got to do what a good tour guide does I got to give context to it that's right and my theme lately is if you're sightseeing trying to enjoy art or music or whatever the more understanding the more context you bring to it the more you get out of it people come to me for budget trip tips you're going to pay the same regardless when you go to the Louvre or the prod or the rakes Museum but if you understand what you're looking at you have tripled the experience so that's a budget trick right there know what you're looking at and when we looked at that art last night after I got to set it up and then listen to the music from that same generation you realize that those castles in Germany were not medieval castles they were faux medieval built in the Romantic age in the late 19th the pointiest stuff in Europe is not Gothic it's folgothic and those were attempts for people who wanted to establish their legitimacy to stoke up medieval mythical roots to their country and mad Ludwig's castle for example the one we all think of as the Disney castle in Germany that's got rebar in it that's poured in concrete that was built the same generation as the Eiffel Tower and for years I thought it was medieval I did too I did too I was so surprised when you said that last night I had no idea you know by the way for whatever it's worth Rick won't say this of course because he's out of some humility unlike some of us as you know King's Lockhart and the pops come on the stage and there's a lot of Applause as there always is because people love them and we love Keith and they love Keith this guy is introduced and correct me if I'm wrong Marjorie Rick Steve was introduced it is like the Beatles reunited at Symphony Hall it was unbelievable and what you are in addition to your travel thing and you're a musician and I know how you feel about music one of the things we've loved about knowing you and talking to you for years is you're an historian as well yeah and one of the things that came up the first caller today taught to us talked about how I'm putting words in his mouth but it was the gist of it how bad it would be for this country to have a president indicted and that kind of thing France has had that Berlusconi in Italy some of the con I can go down the list some of the countries that you've spent so much of your life decades in have done it and their democracies have have survived so is there a lesson is there a takeaway what is it I mean think of it conversely what countries had the opportunity but didn't do it Mussolini Franco Hitler all came to power legally by doing these that we see Happening Now Poland and Hungary they're losing their democracies right now because they've got guys that are reading the same recipe book that the fascists 100 years ago used in Europe and that you could say want to be autocrats all over Western democracies today including in our country are looking at you've got to demoralize the Trust In The Press you've got to demoralize the trust in the Judiciary you've got to dumb down education if there's any country in Europe that learned from its dark past when they screwed up it's Germany yeah and today Germany invests hugely not in a politicized educational system but in just a quality educational system because they want an electorate that can't be duped we're investing in a in an electorate in the future that can be duped you know I'm so glad you mentioned Germany because we are engaged in this effort now to kind of erase a lot of black history from the curriculums all around the country and crazy things like Amanda Gorman's poem that she wrote at the uh that she read a bison's inaugural one parent who hasn't even read it and thought it might have been Oprah Winfrey and not a men's Gorman that hadn't read the poem you know it's off the shelves at least for the elementary school yes they moved it to the middle school but that's going on all around the country and the Germans I mean they are big on Holocaust history they are big on saying this is what we did are they not I've been reporting on that for 30 years in my as I update my guidebooks and 30 years ago it was really tough because Uncle helmet was still alive and they didn't want to tell the real story of what he did but now all those characters are gone and Germany can talk frankly and candidly about what happened in their country and they do a remarkable job in the concentration camps and so on they call them docusenters documentation centers of dealing with their heart history and to see a German father with his child standing in front of one of those gas canisters in an exhibit in a in Dachau explaining to his child what his grandfather did or what his grandfather let happen in a democracy because they thought it would be political theater to not to stop this guy you know to I just think there's powerful lessons in history that's why a few years ago I produced this TV show on fashion lessons of fascism in Europe and I thought it'd be a long shot to have this be more than just a quick uh show on public television but it has been one of the most uh powerful and and successful shows I've certainly ever done in public television because there's such an appetite for us to learn from history and the stakes are really high right now and like you were talking about a cult and we're talking about demoralizing the press and we're talking about how are we going to get through this this is more fundamental than political this is a societal Challenge and people from all on the Spectrum if they really believe in a strong democracy if they really believe in a stable Society in the future they'll recognize this is not politics this is a societal challenge for all of us now I I do want to say though I'm don't think you get enough credit for the profound impact you've had all across America the first time I talked to you you were talking about how you were okay with recreational marijuana being legalized that's why I met him in person we said wow Rick Steves is sticking his neck out and now if I so choose I can run down a mile away from my house and get my little Edibles legally right in Brookline and marijuana is being legalized all across the country but it isn't really about marijuana I was just going to say it's more fundamental than that I mean of course it's nice for people who like to smoke pot to be able to do it legally but and the fact is in most of the country um rich white people can do it but it's poor people and people of color that are at risk but this is fundamentally a civil a principled civil liberties interest and way back then I was just working all over the country one state at a time to help legalize marijuana now more than half of the population of this country lives in legal states but tomorrow morning I'm getting up really early I'm sure you are flying to Denver because I happen to be the chair of the board of normal now and we've got our con our board meeting National Organization for the reform of marijuana laws for those who don't know yeah got it and uh and uh this is an ongoing struggle to stop that prohibition and uh again it's a principled thing for us it's a civil liberties issue it's a racism issue it's a respect for Law Enforcement issue you know I was just thinking about that Jim and Marjorie like when I'm working on the drug policy stuff I I quote mayor LaGuardia in New York who said if the society has a law on the books that it doesn't intend to enforce consistently across the board the very existence of that law erodes respect for law enforcement in general yeah that's in the context of drug policy reform you can see that in the context of this whole Trump thing also if we don't enforce our laws consistently across the board no matter how rich this guy is no matter how many people like them no matter how many lawyers he's got ignoring that problem erodes respect for law enforcement in general who can support that knowingly this is really a fascinating time we're in well John Court last night was a stirring American song what was the Encore after you finished last night with Ode to Joy from Ludwig van Beethoven well as a tour guide I always believe we want to get people out of their comfort zones you learn more about your home by leaving it and looking at it from a distance so we started with America the Beautiful and then we went all over Europe celebrating how other people have their own Nathan Hales and Ethan Allen's and Patrick Henry's and then I just thought well you know my favorite souvenir when I get home it's a broader perspective and a heightened appreciation of how blessed we are to live right here in the United States so we took it home and we the flag unfurls and we played John Philip Souza's March and uh everybody goes crazy and the pickle and stand up yeah we had all the stars that floating around in the symphony halls I learned as a tour guide you can take people politically out of their comfort zone but if you remind them that you're a good capitalist and you really appreciate the United States of America and the importance of our military to defend Freedom as long as you can ignore knowledge that people can listen to you and they can open up to hard lessons that you can learn when you leave our country and talk to people who find different truths to be self-evident and god-given and that's the beauty of travel and that's my beautiful little niche that I found is to be a tour guide and I've got friends like you guys where I can share my ideas I've got public television public radio and it's it's a cool gig you know by the way one last thing America's beautiful as you say first song you put up the composer's image after each and marching a look at each other we had no idea a woman wrote the lyrics to Bates to America the beautiful beautiful things so we learned a lot less I do so Rick I know I speak for Marjorie it's much better when you're here in person so if you can just fly across country maybe in two weeks you know I'm three hours off I'm three hours earlier than you guys and ever since the beginning of kovid we've had a monthly conversation yes that's right and it's my excuse once a month to get up early so I can talk to you guys on a zoom Rick I can't tell you how much we enjoy last night and how thrilled we are to see in person here thanks so much it's great to see the great Rick Steve thank you and you know I could mention if anybody wants to watch the original of that show they can watch it for free anytime if they go to ricksteves.com into the TV corner and look for the TV special along with the fascism show and everything else I've ever done called the symphonic Journey but people can watch the the original about it great and there may be a few things tickets you can check that out too yeah last night Rick Steves thanks safe trip home great thank you very much Rick Steves your best tour guide books I've ever seen you can catch Rick seeds Europe weeknights 7 30 on gbh2 and His Radio Show travel with Rick Steves Sundays at four o'clock on GPH 89 7. he's in town performing with the Boston Pops Rick Steve's Europe a symphonic jury a journey excuse me there's one more show tonight a handful of tickets left at bso.org pops okay coming up after a three-year Hiatus Boston is once again hosting a pride parade and Festival two of its organizers are here to tell us all about it you're listening to Boston Public Radio 89 7 gbh we have broadcasting live from the Boston Public Library streaming at youtube.com gbhnews facebook.com gbhnews [Music] thank you [Music] I see a police car rapidly approaching this week on stories from the stage emotions for my grandma to roll the window down she's deaf and we use sign language to communicate I'm gonna have to ask you both to keep your dome light off for the remainder of your trip basically this man is asking me and my grandma to not talk until we get home stories from the stage Sunday night at 7 only on gbh 89 7. funding for our programs comes from you and Comcast business committed to providing connectivity for your business by offering cyber security Internet and mobile solutions Comcast business powering possibilities restrictions apply Comcast Business Internet required and Mass General Cancer Center dedicated to providing the latest therapies and Cancer Specialists who are experienced in your cancer when you hear the word cancer their team is ready learn more at massgeneral.org cancer [Music] welcome back to Boston Public Radio I'm Jim Browder she's Marjorie and we're live at the Boston Public Library streaming youtube.com gbh news facebook.com gbh news I'm gonna do this introduction Marjorie as I hold my project angle I hate the news feed Cafe I apologize yes you did tomorrow tomorrow 11 Boston will kick off first Pride Parade since 2019. in large part thanks to our next two guests the parade is scheduled to start right where we're standing Copley Square it'll then make its way to Boston Common they're also two festivals both starting at noon more information of Boston Pride for the people.org here with us at the BPL we're joined by Adriana Bolin president of Boston Pride for the people the group behind the pride parade in Chastity bowick is here as well she's a member of the Boston Pride for the people organizing committee previously she co-founded trans resistance mass and led the transgender emergency fund these days she had chastities Consulting and talent group providing services and resources for Trans and gender non-conforming people as well as Ally and sensitivity training welcome to you both and congratulations we're really happy to see you thank you Adriana let's start with the good news that the pride parade is back so how did this not be here and how did it get back I would say so how it got back where the was a bunch of us in the community realizing that we had to be the ones to create something for our city where we all could feel included and respected and accepted and how hard was there to put the pieces back together though it was so hard well it was so hard it was so hard and I didn't really know what I was signing up for I'm such a passionate person and so I was so excited like let's get together let's create what we see in our mind and what we're engaging the community about that involved us meeting weekly starting from September 2022 meeting with different communities there's just so much that we did to try and understand what building this would be like and we hadn't done it before together you know Chastity the from our reading and talking to people who were involved in this issues of respect for people of color in positions of power in the organization trans people in particular were among the reasons why this collapsed a couple of years ago how are we doing in I mean in this limited space because we know the big picture we'll talk about that in a minute how are we doing in this limited space probably for the people in 2023. um pray for the people they are set in the Precedence of how to be inclusive of everyone under umbrella so making sure that marginalized voices like trans woman of color who are the most marginalized Under the Umbrella have a voice and what they want Pride to look like you know we lose a lot of lives in our community over the years so Pride can be Bittersweet to us and we want to have a say so what is it going to look like tomorrow I mean both the parade itself and these other companion Festival things that are happening Adriana well there's four principles that I want to mention that really are the foundation of everything that we do and then I'm going to talk about all the details okay so the four principles the first is commemoration and that's because Pride started as a protest um and we want to honor the lives lost the lives wrist for a lot of the freedoms that our community can experience today the second is educate our community experiences a lot of freedoms because of the folks that we're commemorating and there's so much that we have addressed today gender affirming care just trying to be our own selves and our lives and so we need to educate the community that these things are happening not everyone knows and so you can't change it unless everyone knows what's happening and their role in the context of that work the third is in power our communities can't make change unless they're empowered they're given the resources they're look to and respected and appreciated and the fourth is celebration because we are worthy of Celebration and joy as lgbtq plus communities and what that will look like tomorrow starting here is a parade that looks like the communities were looking to support and Center we'll have our youth we'll have all different organizations businesses folks coming together to really honor and celebrate a time where we need to really hold ourselves together in this world and we'll also have the two festivals that you mentioned earlier and I'm excited because there's something for all ages there's our all age area in the Boston Common which has an lgbtq plus and a bypoc Marketplace that has an aging and older adult area an area for families for youth we have a quiet area there's so many different things going on and then at Boston at um City Hall Plaza is our 21 plus area we'll have a beer garden a DJ entertainment vendors there as well so our hope is that folks can tap into something tomorrow and if not there's so many things going on throughout our city tomorrow so we just hope that folks can tap into things that are activated you know either of you can talk about this but I'll ask you chassis turning first you know I think a lot of people thought you know okay gay marriage uh Supreme Court says it's okay you have a lot of trans people out on TV magazine covers people were getting understanding what the trans was about people that didn't understand it it seemed like we were moving in this direction and all of a sudden there was like a going backwards and I don't know if it's just politicians or I mean what happened I guess is is I mean when you have people outside Children's Hospital complaining about transcare for children and in these weird scary outfits what happened in my opinion I would say in 2016. yeah it took a term for the worse this is when people had someone who was saying it was okay to attack us verbally physically emotionally and that has elevated over the years and so that's why you like you said outside of Boston Children's Hospital people feel they have their rights and that our lives don't matter that we don't have a choice in the late the last Republican convention they were talking about genocide within the trans community right so we have a lot of work to do so not only are we combating these politicians we have to combat the people who believe in this ideology that they're putting out there and so we have so much work to do and so pride is one month but we have to do this work all year round yeah because that's the only way we're going to combat these issues that's the voice of Chastity bowick she's here with Adriana Bowen they're both behind Boston Pride for the people and tomorrow is the parade and all this sort of stuff you know staying on that Adriana for a minute you know the human rights uh campaign is declared an lgbtq state of emergency because of what Marjorie and Chastity were talking about when you were going down the four elements a minute ago I don't even know if you're conscious of this you were straight faced when you did the first three and when you mentioned the celebration you had a broad smile on your face how do you adjust the pose the beauty of a celebration that hasn't been had in years finally coming back with the backdrop of all the crap that Chastity and Marjorie were talking about you know what I mean sorting two eyes on two you know what I mean I have this thing same question for myself and it's being in a position myself in our community where we can actually make change and realize that that change comes with a lot of feelings comes with it a lot of different experiences and in those experiences we still have to be happy so how we do it we do it and I just and I'm grateful that we have that energy it's not easy it's not easy to be a community that is experiencing and oppressed in all these different ways depending on our intersectional identities and still trying to express Joy so it's a superpower that our community has well also it seems to be the right community at least from my perspective I mean I know that under mayor Wu there's this city office for lgbtq plus advancement I know you worked in the housing area for Trans people uh Chastity and there is some housing provided for some Caesar seniors in the lgbtq community is this a community is this a city that's doing what it needs to do to advance this this cause Adriana it's doing what it needs to do and needs to continue doing more of what needs to be done you you're nodding in agreement Chastity say what you're thinking it's a start it's a start but you know like we're going back to these politicians when they're running it's a lot of lip service so now that you know we have two powerful women in office I'm going to be holding them accountable to make sure that they provide more resources what's the most important thing you want we're gonna have mayor Wu here on Tuesday one of the 20th my apologies and Governor Healy will probably be here the next couple of a week or so too what do you most immediately need from both of these recently elected leaders housing housing housing housing is a major component of Health and Wellness with the lgbtqia and particularly a problem in the trans Community absolutely we'll explain some of that I mean you ought to homelessness thing yourself did you not know exactly um if it wasn't for the trans emergency fund I probably wouldn't be here with you all today and so we need more programs and more resources being put into that infrastructure because we are still unfortunately being discriminated against in cisgender shelters so we need that space for ourselves and the trans emergency fund transitional home it can only house up to eight people so we need to quadruple that so we can get some of these trans folks off of the street and stop but they won't stop being attacked it was just a trans woman attacked a few weeks ago in Boston Commons but you don't see that on the news and so we need to make sure we have the right funding for these resources will you also mentioned Chastity the trans issue and the race issue I mean the obviously racism is involved in this whole thing too so it is kind of a double whammy that people are having to deal with what did the fun do for you um it got me off the streets where you know stopped me from having to engage in survival sex work and it got me a room that I paid the rent for for three months and so it literally saved my life and in return that's why I got involved because I wanted to give back to my community by the way people are texting or or posting on YouTube Love Jim's pride shirts from WGBH where do we get the shirt you don't unfortunately I don't think they're are they available to we'll see if they can be but they're not now by the way one factual update uh unrelated here one of the lawyers who was on CNN last night defending Trump is among two lawyers who resigned from Trump's theme this morning saying they will no longer be representing the former president of the United States no more negative talk for the remaining five minutes Adriana give us a little bit more of a feel of of tomorrow if you can you know just fill in a few more blanks for us yeah so tomorrow as I mentioned we'll be here we'll be doing a ribbon cutting there will be a lot of different people with us as we get ready to start our parade we have over 200 contingents joining us in our parade each with about 70 fights 75 folks will be kicking off and going towards the common once we get at the common everyone will be able to break out in their different activities we have several performers at both of our stages we have ASL interpreters both deaf and hearing interpreters available and we're just excited to to engage folks what are you doing about I mean I realized after I said no more negative this isn't quite negative let's consider this just a question what's happening with corporate support I mean there's been a lot of crap in the past that uh uh a lot of people what it's called rainbow washing essentially a lot of Corporations Target who are not doing the right my favorite store try to cover for their misdeeds is we'll give two thousand dollars to a parade you have a different sort of vetting standard this round do not do we came up with a cry too because so I just shared with you the four principles that our mission and work is founded on and we want to make sure that and any business or organization or corporation that we engage with align with those principles and we did that by developing a criteria where we're looking at their HRC index number and seeing if they've donated to any anti-lgbtq or anti-abortion legislation so we have an active criteria that we put all corporations through we have a conversation if in fact we do see that they have a score that is higher or suggests that they've donated somewhere we have a conversation and and share with them how they can be genuine we have had conversations could you describe one of those thus what's that like I like having honest conversations with people and I find when you approach people in a way to educate and not shame that it's a positive conversation so if you're laughing no I love that I want to be like you when I grow up by the way it takes patience it's not so it's not always easy to do that but what we aim for is to have honest conversations where we're educating then people feel more called in than called out and so they've been respectful conversations and has it worked in your estimation meaning have you seen movement receptivity understanding that maybe they can't behave that kind of way yeah which is nice it's like wow thought it wouldn't click but it clicked in our conversation when we have we've had the organ the privilege to actually be one-on-one with people and have conversations with them our community at large doesn't always have that privilege and access terrific like I said before I you know when you see stores like Target that have that has sold Pride material for years without controversy I was asking you about this before it's like okay you go and there's the stuff where you have in your kids schools as I've had in my kids schools you know talks about uh gay rights and kids with gay moms and transgender families and all this kind of stuff and then it's like this it's it seems like Dark Ages almost you know what I mean it feels like we've gone backwards yeah can I just say that I've reached out to Target multiple times um to ask for donations for the transgender emergency fund and I've never gotten a response so really yeah I guess now you know why I mean not a lot of courage in those part maybe you can have a one-on-one conversation with them maybe yeah we are the ones are you too as excited as you appear to be I should say I mean just look at you when you've been talking about tomorrow the Expressions explode I mean Adriana you're really I'm so excited I feel like I've talked about my experience with our committee like being at Camp I feel like in September we sat down with our crowns and markers like okay y'all this is what it's going to look like and we're gonna get to see that in person and while it's hitting me in a little emotional way but we get to see that in person and I'm like so I yeah I'm excited it's like building something and building something with such a diverse and intersectional group it's like y'all it's possible we can be different and come together and create something beautiful chest are you feeling the same deal absolutely and and the fact that we have this amazing beautiful black woman as the president of Boston Adriana we're talking about yeah yeah um because there's two of us up here and of course an amazing board that all assists like I'm excited to see what has all been executed and we're gonna come party I hope you're still gonna come party with us yeah the answer is yes and this is really contagious we're thrilled to see you both and congratulations on some wonderful work have fun tomorrow thank you very very much again here I hope you have a great day tomorrow we're speaking with Adriana Bolin she's president of Boston Pride for the people as well as Chastity bowick she's a member of the group's organizing committee as well as the woman behind Chastity's Consulting and talent group Boston Pride parades tomorrow it starts at 11 right here in Copley and ends at Boston Common what's the matter just watch it Adriana okay one happy woman two festivals you don't want to miss one for the whole family in Boston Common a second 21 plus Festival City Hall Plaza both starting at noon for more information go to Boston prideforthepeople.org coming up you're listening to Boston Public Radio 89 7 gbh we are broadcasting live from the Boston Public Library you're [Music] [Applause] [Music] here foreign all right [Music] got it [Music] hi Marjorie I'm the one who's excited yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah every single one of us could use immersion now [Music] every single one of us could use some mercy now [Music] they were great thank you committees and yeah the umbrella's big we have a hard time all figuring out how to stand next to each other publisher I remember Jim oh yeah I was friends with Jim when he started it way back in the day oh no we're good it's so nice to be in Boston [Music] every single one of us cause you some mercy now [Music] 40 minutes yeah okay 23 NASDAQ is up 10. you're listening to NPR news good afternoon from the gbh radio Newsroom I'm Henry Santoro after a three-year Hiatus Boston's Pride Parade will take to the streets of the city once again tomorrow the group Boston Pride for the people can be credited with pulling the events together not just for tomorrow but for most of pride month as well tomorrow's parade begins at 11 A.M on Boylston Street it will wind its way to the Boston Common and then not long after the pride festival will kick off on the common and at Boston City Hall Plaza according to the organizer some 250 groups organizations and businesses will March in the parade in Boston mayor Michelle Wu's office says they're expecting a million people or more to come out to the all ages events the owners of Dave and Buster's will pay 275 thousand dollars to resolve allegations of meal break and child labor violations at its various locations according to the Attorney General's office Andrea Campbell the settlement with Dave and Buster's and Braintree Natick and Woburn also includes compensation for more than 800 employees under the terms of the agreement Dave and Busters of Massachusetts Inc will accept three citations issued by the AG's office they include citations for violating state law by not providing meal breaks of at least 30 minutes to employees who work shifts lasting longer than six hours and not obtaining work permits for minors before they began employment and also by employing 16 or 17 year old minors for later hours than permitted by law 63 degrees outside our Studios we are expecting some rain support for NPR comes from NPR stations other contributors include the lodestar foundation inspired by the principle that helping someone else less fortunate is a path to a happier healthier and more meaningful life learn more at lodestarfoundation.org I'm Henry Santoro gbh news 89 7. [Music] and you're listening to Boston Public Radio 897 gbh we are broadcasting live from the Boston Public Library as we do every Tuesday and every Friday and we are streaming online at youtube.com gbhnews and facebook.com gbh news hello again Jim hello Again Margaret before we introduce the local woman who's also a coyote attack Survivor I just want to we've mentioned to you in the middle of our discussion with the pride for the people people that uh two of Donald Trump's lawyers have resigned uh this morning one of whom was on TV just last night defending him here's a statement a post by uh Donald Trump for purposes of fighting the greatest decisions a few minutes ago greatest Witch Hunt of all time now moving to the Florida courts I'll be represented by Todd Blanche and listeners and affirm to be named later I mean yeah is this even real I mean in any case we're going to talk more about this not only with Sue but with Nance gertner former federal judge at 12 30 and then after we have an incredible credible performance just before one o'clock we're going to spend the remainder of the last hour just talking to you about these historic developments but first that Local woman and coyote attack Survivor is joining us she'd be a media Maven over as well that's Sue O'Connell as soon as the co-publisher of bay windows in the South End news political analyst for NECN and NBC 10 Boston hello good day good day I'm headed down to Miami for the indictment so I'm very excited are you really oh good no you're not I think Tuesday at the courthouse in Miami right yep no wait a second you're going you are yep with the whole team we're all going down we're leaving uh Sunday night or Monday morning we'll be down there reporting live uh from from Miami well you have to call us on Tuesday you really have to work it out with Jamie remember you got to call us Jim doesn't understand that real reporters actually go to real and report on them as they're happy right in front of them in person that's right yeah it's a New Concept but anyway it's Joe O'Connell we're going to uh we're going to play a little sound from something that sounds really cool oh my God it's great speak now interview um for NBC this is part of you talking reflecting on coming out as a gay woman in America here it is I've been fortunate because I came out I think in 1983 and my family was accepting and I also was able to work in a place that allowed me to be openly gay but at the same time there were opportunities that I did not get and did not get to take advantage of because I was openly gay it definitely is still a major challenge for people to come out which is why the community is so important that we are often a community of of a chosen family friends and colleagues who support each other and hope to fill in the gaps where sometimes family is unable to do so so before I ask you a little bit about what you said in that little piece tell us what this is part of yeah so um NBC Universal and especially here at NBC 10 Boston Telemundo New England NECN and Boston uh NBC Sports uh we have speak now which is how we are celebrating pride month across our many companies and here in Boston our uh our group did an exceptional job I wasn't involved in it I was just a talent in this part but uh Mission and the team really asked folks to come out and tell their stories and produce them in these great black and white videos and also allies to share about how they support us and why pride is important so a number of my colleagues got to share their stories about being lgbtq you might note I forgot to say I was a lesbian yeah at the beginning of it I said I was a mother and then moved right on so I'd like to set the record straight I am indeed a lesbian um so thank you for that thank you sorry but it's been really um incredible it's had a great impact on our co-workers I mean we hang out the time we talk all the time but really sharing our stories and why pride month is so important to us has really been really meaningful I have to say I'm you know it was more moving than I think any of us expected it to be can I tell you I don't work there and I went online to watch you this morning and then I ended up watching like six or seven more some of the people you know from television some behind the scenes including the one reporter who didn't come out till later in life I can't I'm sorry I don't know her name Abby yes oh my God I mean these are so moving and so beautiful how do people find them by the way if they want to check them out where do they go they can go to our website at any of our websites at any time Boston just Google speak now and uh Colton Bradford there is tevin's there the whole crew of folks I think we might have possibly the most diverse on-air um staff in the market in the history of Boston so I just hope you get to get to know us a little bit better you know one one other thing about what you had to say did you not say bless you Margaret did you not say in the middle of this thing that you lived in New York City for 90 days is that what you said what was that about so I left Kiss 108 where I was the music director I think I was 25 years old and I moved to New York to work for Atlantic Records and surprisingly Jim I think you know this New York is not like Boston and um I saw my boss uh standing in line to get in a club and I thought oh forget this I'm going back to Boston where I never have to stand in line yeah well so you mentioned you mentioned uh that you were in jobs like Kiss 108 where things might have been like it you know everybody's kind of loose and relaxed and it wasn't like Corporate America or something like that or a white shoe Law Firm but you also mentioned that little clip we played that there were opportunities you think you did not get and didn't get to take advantage of like what well you know I at that time I had also applied for a job at another major record label um and I got all the way to the final um interview and uh someone who used to work there who I worked with that Kiss 108 came up and said they want to hire you but they want you to tone down the gay and this is like 1985 and I was just like well what does that even mean toned down the gate it wasn't like it is today you weren't really open all the time about what you were and so I didn't take that job and at that moment I made a decision that I was just going to work places where I could be who I was authentically and that automatically limits your where you're going to go work right so to your point there's a lot of corporate communication jobs that I could have applied for that I didn't I mean obviously I'm happy where I am and I'm things worked out perfectly but there I'm definitely sure I could have been making a lot more money than I'm making now uh and there are some other things that I I could be doing that those opportunities were not open to me because I I think I just physically was on unable to be closeted it wasn't so much a brave choice on my point part but I definitely did miss out on opportunities because I was openly gay in the 80s and 90s you know so we want to get your thoughts on Trump but one more related thing before we do we mentioned to the leaders of Pride for the people a couple of minutes ago that the Human Rights Campaign has declared an lgbtq plus a state of emergency and on the other side of the equation the the current President Joe Biden has been attempting through executive order to do some things to advance the cause and obviously people have learned if they didn't know before there's only so much a president can do unilaterally as opposed to getting things through Congress and then signing on has he done things that will make a difference and if he has what are they it's less about advancing using the cause and more about protecting us from an onslaught of of negativity both physically and emotionally some of the things that he did uh and he was he will celebrate on Saturday they had to move the lgbtq event at the White House due to the airport oh right I read that yeah and that's going to be on Saturday instead of yesterday he um authorized Homeland Security in helping train uh um lgbtq bars and restaurants and Retail establishments on how to react to bomb threats that's one of the things that the president has done the president is also working at examining these book bands and trying to stop those that's one thing that the president has done and getting more money from the government to help with mental health services especially for young lgbtq people so while these things are important they're not advancing our cause they are a firewall up against the attack that we are under right now so I'm sure that Joe Biden could be doing more uh but at this point it's he's got to defend us from the attacks that are happening across the country at us you know uh by the way I think the first openly gay press secretary is Joe Biden secretary is she not yeah so Jim mentioned we're just talking to people from Boston uh Pride Adriana Bolin and Chastity bowick and I asked Chastity about we see him for a while to be going in this trajectory where people saying okay you know I got a gay brother gay neighbor gay whatever and I'm on board gay marriage whatever fine and then we seem to take this turn and now we're in this horrible place where you've got hundreds of bills across the country aimed at gay and trans people um and I asked her what she thought was the turning point and she said 2016 which of course is When Donald Trump was elected do you think that's that's what happened or is it something else or yeah I I don't know I don't know Marjorie it definitely allowed I think uh Donald Trump allowed people to act in a way um because he acted in a way that some people might be thinking or it was socially unacceptable and or just plain rude and wrong to do yeah he just did it and and it allowed people to behave that way um I I I don't know why uh things changed that definitely is is associated to that I don't know if that's exactly why things change we were just joking around this morning with uh some straight colleagues saying you know straight people act like gay people raise gay kid they're all raised by straight people right I mean I was not exposed to drag shows when I was a kid and look what I turned out to be a lesbian you know and you never really know who your kid is going to turn out to be you just don't know what your adult child is going to be and that makes me really sad for a lot of these parents who are working so hard to um to make it more difficult for Trans kids to get care that they need and lgbtq kids to feel safe in school because you just don't know who your kid is going to turn out to be and if evidence and history teaches us anything about 99 of gay lgbtq people were born and raised by straight people so well I I can only hope that's going to turn the corner I'm laughing because I remember a line from Christopher's story we had Christopher on his travel writer for the globe and he was talking about this whole thing about the allegations about grooming children to be gay you know and and there was a quote in there from some gay guy who says you know I don't know about you but I I was groomed to be a heterosexual by two straight by two straight parents and obviously it didn't work going to your point that the idea that um you know you're going to be uh whatever you're going to be because you've got parents that are grooming you is Right children often don't listen to their parents that's been my experience so I don't know about yours my my bougie daughter who likes to spend as much money as she can on the finest restaurant says nothing to do with me exactly so uh you probably heard that for the first time in American history a president or former president has facing Federal criminal charges you know it's only it's only because Trump is Trump that there's not even more of a reaction than there is and should be you know you have to step back for a second and say okay it's sort of the norm and the natural progression for somebody who's got this kind of history but it's never been close to this for any of the presidents in our nation's history what was your immediate reaction when you heard this I assumed last night yeah I was actually um out to dinner with Ruby with my daughter in the North End and we were out our our other Pat Inca passed away last week and we were out celebrating his life at dinner and I'd shut my phones off and I got outside the restaurant and turned them both on and they blew up like crazy and I said to Ruby to your point I have I bet you Trump got indicted and she had hasn't he already he Bennett I did like well there's going to be more coming too I mean it's it's hard Jim you you sort of sum it up exactly it's like we expected this to happen this week all the news stations were on alert that something was going to happen and you're kind of Beyond being shocked at the same time you have to be shocked because this is so abnormal and it's really both a good day for America because the justice system is working and a sad day for America because we elected Donald Trump and this is what we got he's not going to change and his supporters at least 25 percent of them are still going to support them you know people keep asking me is this it is this when things will change I mean what more does he have to be accused of credibly accused of and indicted for and charged with fraud and convicted of fraud for people to think well no maybe he's not the kind of character the kind of morals moral character that we want to be president of the United States so it's it's just mind-blowing you know I don't know where you got that 25 figure I figure it's it's going to be a I worry it's going to be 100 of those who support him who's thick with them maybe more just like what happened after his indictments in Manhattan County I have to say that's what scares me more than what Trump trump will be Trump whatever that is it's not good for democracy in the future of our country but the notion that there is not that Kevin McCarthy in his office didn't say okay I'm gonna take a deep breath today's the day I got to do the right thing and say at minimum let the justice system play out as opposed to talking about the weaponization or whatever maybe that was the Santos who said that too I am really troubled about how this may not only cause his supporters to stick but may invigorate other people who are angry at big government uh like bullies to I I don't even know what it is are you worried or am I you know no I mean yeah my my 25 number is actually of the 30 percent of Republicans who support him so I'm sorry oh I got it again don't be 100 of his supporters and I imagine it just a couple will drop but he'll still have a number that will get him through the primary um and I think the anti-government people um I don't know it may you know we saw what happened on January 6th so I don't want to Discount what could happen but we all also saw how many of those people who participate debated in January 6 are now behind bars in some serving true really really really lengthy sentences yeah while Donald Trump still roams the planet so I hope that for those who were kind of on the bubble and went and their wives yelled at them or their husbands yelled at them and now they're in jail um that might serve as a message to others that you know this isn't a movie this is real life um but what I do worry about is how the Republicans I think it's important for us to have a multi-party democracy where people can present ideas me too there's certainly things that regular Republicans put forward that I would consider supporting but at this moment you can't and where are the Democrats you know Joe Biden can say well gee I wish I could do these things I wish I could make sure that I could forgive your college loan I wish I could you know guarantee that climate crisis will be addressed but we're getting there we'll keep working on it while he can compromise but what do the Republicans say right they say well we're for Lauren odd or Law and Order and except in this case where we think the justice department is corrupt right you can't really Square that's not an ideology that you can marry off to each other so the Republicans are continuing to just shoot themselves in the foot and I you know I I never really think there's going to be an opportunity for a third party to emerge but they really got to get their act together if they want to govern they have done no governing for the most part since they have taken control of the house they've done no policy presented no real bills so it's just like a bad reality TV show you know we call you media Maven primarily because you are there's one more trickle-down effect at minimum of Donald Trump is the celebrated uh CEO or whatever he was of CNN uh Chris we hardly knew ye it lasted about a year there was this story by the way I know it's fifteen thousand words long if people want to have a real fun read and I use the term fun advisedly read the piece in the Atlantic where this ego maniacal fool agreed to have a reporter essentially move in with him for months and months and the guy rips Chris Licht to shreds in ways that are unimaginable and I think the conventional wisdom is the final straw was essentially uh not so much even the Trump Town Hall even though he took a lot of criticism but the Trump town hall audience which apparently was picked by CNN and was essentially participants in a Trump trump rally so what do you make of this CNN thing what's the Fallout going to be what does it mean for coverage of trump going forward all that sort of stuff so the most horrific part of that article to me and is was was sort of in the opening paragraph I don't have it in front of me but I think Chris lick was act asked about thinking about Donald Trump and how they covered Donald Trump and he said that he doesn't spend a lot of nights wondering how they should be covering Donald Trump and that he thought basically I'm paraphrasing that the media have learned their lesson from the 2016 campaign and he could not have been more wrong about that every legitimate serious journalist I know spends a lot of time thinking about talking about how do we cover Donald Trump during this election season how do we cover Robert F Kennedy Jr how do we cover candidates who are spreading disinformation or saying things that aren't true but yet still have to cover them because they're newsworthy and they are in fact legitimate candidates who are running for president we talk about it all the time so the fact that Chris admitted that he doesn't think about it at all was horrifying to me and that's clearly what happened with the town town hall meeting that it was not like what we do will have an impact how do we do it fairly how do we do it professionally didn't seem to be at all part of his DNA and how he would run CNN and you know a lot of folks are portraying this as CNN tried to go to the middle in their coverage right they wanted to not be a little liberal they wanted to be in the middle and they might have over corrected but I I think he was just a bad choice to be a news director of of such a complicated um Network that if you could certainly offer more news coverage without pundits like me you could you could and CNN certainly has the bandwidth to do that and they certainly could have done a town meeting with uh with Donald Trump that could have in some way been more fact-based or correcting it in real time or airing it later but they chose not to so I think I'm hoping there are fewer Chris licks out there who will look at the CNN uh debacle as a cautionary tale that we do have to think about how we're covering these people we have to have meetings about it we have to make plans and we have to correct ourselves when we do something wrong and understand that everything that we do has an impact and I I'm I'm praying for CNN because I it's an important tool in the media landscape I'm not sure what they're going to do though you know a couple of final things about CNN that bear mentioning if you read a lot of the stories in New York Magazine of the Atlantic piece uh what's Brian stelter who is the former media critic there who was fired by I wish they'd be hire him who was recently on with us talking about this uh virtually none of the on-air leaders or high profile people would on camera or with a name attached criticize the direction their station took so it's worth doing a shout out to Christiana Amanpour who I think in her graduation address was the Columbia School of Journal journalism took them on and I mean she's a powerful woman she's huge presence Oliver Darcy who replaced uh uh Brian stelter as the editor of this fabulous morning newsletter which if you don't get you should it's free reliable sources uh that morning after the town hall had the courage to take on his boss and say and I'm paraphrasing I don't think any useful purpose was served by last night he was called in by Licht a fairly low-level person I mean not a pejorative way but he's not Anderson Cooper and he was accused of being too emotional by Chris Lake probably putting his livelihood at risk but that's the kind of courage in my opinion you want to see in journalists who are willing to call things as they see them so Amanpour and Darcy deserve a huge amount of praise for those who care about truth and uh journalism now agree medium even soon before you leave I want to know we have a text here I want you to know from Patty and Winthrop who says I just want to say there's a former resident and graduate of the high school in Revere that I think Sue O'Connell is a credit to Revere oh my God and to the schools in Revere and I'm proud to be from the same city Revere what do you say to her class of 1980 there you go she thinks it's the same part of Revere the Ave as in short for Avenue yeah I'm from Shirley Ave there you go well Patty and Winthrop she's very proud to be associated with you sue O'Connell people they move up in the world in Revere we moved to Windsor if I lived in Winter my brother lives in Winthrop I got lots of family and friends thank you Patty happy Friday I think Patty's mother was a bookie too that may be what it was all about hey Sue thank you happy Pride to you watch out by the way congratulations to your colleagues that's that's that those videos are brilliant and moving and important well done I'll let them know hey we're broadcasting the pride parade tomorrow call in Tuesday because real reporters go to the scene Marjorie that's right they do whatever that means we've been speaking with local woman Sue O'Connell who survived a coyote attack with her wonderful dog Maude she's also co-publisher of bay windows and South End news political analyst for NECN and nbc10 Boston and our media Maven right here at Boston Public Radio after a quick break oh by the way she is going to join it's already established my apologies she's already she's going to join us on Tuesday can I say one last thing yes a lot of people are texting saying well we have another opportunity to call in about Trump yes after we have This brilliant performance uh in maybe about 30 minutes we're going to take calls for the rest of the show yes we are but up next to retired federal judge Nancy gurton who's going to take a lot of our questions the legal questions about uh what the former president is is facing and the impact of this judge in Miami um as former president Trump of course becomes the first former president in the history of the United States to face Federal criminal charges you are listening to Boston Public Radio 89.7 gbh we have broadcasting live from the Boston Public Library and we are streaming at youtube.com gbhnews and facebook.com gbhnews [Music] [Applause] [Music] foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music] is heavily associated with going to the pool or the beach but many children from low-income communities don't know how to swim and it's generational their families have never swam they have a fear of the water how one non-profit organization is changing that with free swimming lessons taught by teens four teens more on all things considered from NPR news today at 4 here on gbh news 89 7. support for our programs comes from you and Mass General Brigham Health Plan a Health Plan connected to a world leading Health Care System committed to providing Innovative plans coverage and a broad network of doctors learn more at Mass General brighamhealthplan.org and Polar Seltzer family made in the heart of New England since 1882. cheers to being eight years older than radio learn more at polarsaltzer.com [Music] welcome back to Boston Public Radio Jim Brody and Marge Regan we're live at the Boston Public Library uh and we are streaming my apologies youtube.com gbhnews facebook.com gbh news in about 20 minutes Mary Goshay is going to talk to us and play and she's brilliant after that we're going to take your calls for the rest of the show about this history making day in case you missed it that was a joke a Federal grand jury in Florida has indicted a former president Trump on seven federal charges related to his handling of these classified documents in Mar-A-Lago as you all know it's the first ever for a president on federal charges in the history of our country there are a ton of legal questions to make sense of joining us to do just that on Zoom I guess for an indictment edition of on the dock it is retired federal judge Nancy gertner judge Gartner is a senior lecturer at Harvard Law School and a BPR contributor judge gertner thanks for making time we appreciate it Jessica reporter's question what's your reaction what does it mean yeah we'll get to that to the uh to the news of this indictment you know um again the if it had not happened it would do violence to the whole regime for the protection of classified and confidential documents in other words you can't have what Trump did essentially thumbing his nose at the entire system um if the reporting is right and it sounds right um and and with to with to go without consequences um so I I think that this is the indictment that had to happen um and you know and then the question is where we go from here well speaking of going from here you have to explain to me why the special counsel made the decision to choose Florida as a jurisdiction and not DC the two things that one appears to be true and one is true the thing that appears to be true is a typical jury in Washington DC uh again I'm not I want fairness but this is a fact is more democratic leaning a typical jury in Palm Beach or in that part of Florida is more Republican leaning that's one but much more importantly a judge whom you eviscerated on this show Eileen Cannon and a judge who is eviscerated by her appellate colleagues for essentially going in the tank for Donald Trump on these this these very this very issue several months ago Eileen Cannon his at least preliminarily been assigned this case uh marjorie's wondering if she'll be chastened I guess we'll get to that so what's your reaction on both fronts or any fronts to the decision to proceed in Florida okay so um what Jack Smith did was take a significant legal issue off the table by bringing this in Florida and the reason is the Constitution this is not a statute this is a constitutional requirement that you be tried in the venue and you would be tried the way the Constitution describes it as a bisonage um where you tried where the the ACT took place now there were a bunch of Acts here one could have been the act of taking these documents when you didn't have a right to in Washington willfully taking them in Washington and then there is willful retention which is in Florida Smith must have made the calculation that the willful retention case is much stronger and that therefore he had to bring that uh in Florida there was a theory that could have brought it in Washington but that would have wrapped this very important case up in all sorts of uh motions with respect to change to the venue and uh uh and and he didn't want to do that um I think on this show I predicted that that could well happen um because the retention stuff is very strong uh the taking is a different issue how about Judge Cannon well I don't think I've been scrambling to this and I had time this morning to try to figure out how this happened so the whether or not she is actually the judge on the case will is was was is is a question is a Randomness question so there is a wheel um that um all the judges in that jurisdiction are on and um uh and my understanding actually is she got on the case on the search warrant case by random selection he did not although everyone had reported that she was you know hand-picked in fact the people my friends down in Florida said that it was really random selection and and that's how she got it now the reporting is that she's preliminarily involved so here I don't know whether she's going to wind up on the case permanently there is some there are some local rules that would suggest that people who are in judges who are involved in preliminary matters stay on the case and other jurisdictions have um a rule that the you know the when the case is brought after the search warrant there's a random draw again I don't know what the local rule is and then on the question of whether she's chastened um who knows uh um the who knows what this will endure I should just explain I should explain to people though what she was chasing she was chasing for back in the uh Mar-A-Lago thing she issued this order appointing a special Master to review all these secret government documents from Mar-A-Lago and the appeals court which would have slowed down the whole process and the appeals court uh uh issued a 21-page opinion blasting Canada's decision to block the FBI from using thousands of documents until they were reviewed by a special Master it was a unanimous ruling uh said Canada never had the jurisdiction to order the review or prohibit the FBI from looking at the documents um and um it also the court also rejected the idea that Trump should be treated differently from any other Target so can we stay on the chase in the topic I started have you were you ever reversed in a dramatic fashion where the judges critic I'm serious where the judges were very critical of your decision making not that I can remember but then again I would have repressed it [Laughter] well how about your friends who've made a a fellow federal judges what is the impact on I know everybody's different when you are really that was a pretty heavy slap at judge cannon from the Appellate Court but the Attorney General Barr said she was yeah even right uh Trump's what usually is the response from a judge when he or she has been treated like that by his or her superiors well under a rock Iraq is that she was completely out of her Lane yeah the investigation of a uh of a criminal case is the responsibility of the prosecutor and while the judge has oversight responsibility she cannot meddle and that's what she did she walked out of her Lane now she's in the lane of a neutral Arbiter of what um the charges are and it's a it's a different it's a different issue see there are lots of ways that she could put her finger on the scale here when Trump you know asked for Discovery she could give Trump you know more Discovery than he otherwise would be entitled to she could also much more significantly considerably slow down the material the proceedings yeah and slowing it down could have interesting implications I mean if Trump were elected in 2024 sworn in in 2025 and this case we're still going he could make it go away wait wait wait fill in those blanks make it go away because he's a sitting president under that office yes Department of Justice drop it charges yeah yeah before he could or he could although there's some constitutional question about this he could um uh pardon himself um so she could so delay is a I mean it's not likely this is not a difficult case this is a pretty straightforward case it's not likely that it would take you know over a year and a half to try um but that's one way that the judge could slow down the proceedings we're talking a former federal judge Nancy gertner so uh judge gertner I was one because a lot of people that are on Trump's side are saying that this is the uh President Biden's justice department going after his chief rival in the election what I'm wondering from you is what's the procedure for the prosecutor Jack Smith I I assume he's got to run this by Merrick Garland the Attorney General but how does it work when you're about to indict um the former president does he have to call up Joe Biden and ask him permission I don't know my understanding and this is only from the reporting um is and also from knowing Garland is that uh you know Garland is in charge Merrick Garland is in charge but in appointing Jack Smith he made it clear that decisions with respect to prosecution he was not going to interfere intervene in at all and so my understanding just again from the reporting is that Smith would have notified Garland but garland would not have put pressure in any direction and my understanding is that Biden did not know okay the other okay so Nancy Gardner this is I think the biggest issue at least for me you and when you and Larry tribe were from obviously from Harvard Law School constitutional scholar your buddy were kind enough to come on television with me one of the things we talked about fairly regularly in the beginning of these multiple investigations is could Donald Trump serve as president from jail and my understanding and correct me for wrong that will you and Professor tribe uh taught me is there's provision in the 14th amendment that bars any federal elected official from serving in federal office if he or she is engaged in quote Insurrection or Rebellion against the Constitution of the United States or given Aid in Comfort to the enemies so my interpretation is and here's where you can disabuse me if I'm wrong if this trial happens and he's convicted and goes to jail and we'll ask you in a minute if you think he would get jail time or uh same thing in Manhattan County or uh well not Georgia because that may be Insurrection related on this case alone as serious as is conspiracy charges obstruction of justice if he's convicted and sent to jail he could both run and serve as president United States is that not correct yes because these charges two things about the 14th Amendment it is not it doesn't enforce itself so even assuming he were convicted that's assuming there was a January 6 indictment and he was convicted of it um some other entity would have to take action it would be either Congress that would have to take action to Bar him from office or it would be an application to a court it's not not the Constitution is never self-enforcing some other entity would have to take action now that that's the January 6th case uh one could argue that the Mar-A-Lago case is also about um uh Insurrection um also or or acting against the interests of the government because of the two things one is the Espionage claim is a claim of the unlawful uh uh retention of National Defense information if there's any indication in the case and we don't know that for he doesn't Smith doesn't have to prove this but if there's any indication that Trump actually showed any of these documents to anyone particularly an adversary um then this would amount to a conviction that would at least implicate the 14th Amendment on its face it doesn't in other words just looking right now retention of National Defense information retention of classified information uh even obstruction of justice um you have to you have to take some additional steps which the facts could wear out to get it under the 14th Amendment but even if you do there has to be an entity that would enforce it Congress the courts it would have to be an entity that would enforce it and and and there would be constitutional challenges up and down the line so these charges are not likely to trigger that any charges out of January 6th are another question I understood so do you have a question five million a couple more we're not going to keep you all day but I've been waiting to talk to you for 15 hours so you're not going anywhere judge gertner for a second you seem to intimate uh I hope I don't know if you I read this right you can Envision a situation where there could be a trial and a verdict in this case before people go to the polls in 20 24 and I assume that means this would move to the front of the pack ahead of Manhattan ahead of Georgia which is allegedly going to be announced in uh August so you're saying within a year and a couple of months this could come to closure sure uh the Florida courts are well known for their speed against if Canon if judge Cannon is the one in charge she would have control over that but they're well known for their speed um someone on television yesterday was describing it as a quote rocket docket jurisdiction um uh you know where where cases get tried very quickly so yes it could go but you know it's this is all speculation because at the same time if I were representing Donald Trump I would make sure I would raise every conceivable imaginable constitutional legal statutory issue that I can not necessarily even for delay although that's in his interest as well but because it's a pretty big deal and you want to make sure that you've defended the person well so yes the on the one hand it's a rocket talk and on the other hand there are bound to be lots of issues here by the way for those only know Nancy Gartner from her time on the federal court she's arguably one of the best criminal defense lawyers on the planet in parts of her other life one more question about the trial you side over the trial of a former president and he is found guilty on all seven of these counts including Espionage obstruction of justice he's a first-time offender as serious as the charges and the conviction would be what do you do with the defendant after his conviction you know you've asked me this before and I'm going to keep asking you too I mean there are the regular rules I mean the when the federal uh who had been 50 given probation 50 of the time we're given probation before the guidelines suddenly it was down to you know single digits everyone got prison time of some time but I I don't think that there's any way of predicting the way this case uh would go and what the sentence would be he certainly he's certainly vulnerable to to imprisonment there's no question about it the charges are very serious from what we understand but um who knows I don't think there's any way of predicting it I have one more related question of that and you can be sick of this question too when you're deciding that issue as a federal judge I've talked to you about I think one of these guys I think maybe these guys are friends here's Jack Goldsmith who I think worked for a George Bush in the office of legal counsel right Bob Bauer who was the uh Council for Barack Obama will my television show a couple years ago after they wrote a great book about how to fix what what Trump broke and the only issue this Republican and Democrat disagreed on as to whether or not Trump should be prosecuted not uh whether he had committed crimes but whether he should be prosecuted for those crimes so I guess my question flowing from that is it appropriate for a judge to consider not just the record of the individual Donald Trump not just the crimes for which he's committed but can he or she the judge consider the potential damage to the country if you believe that there's damage to the country of either imprisoning or not imprisoning a convicted former president you know what I mean yeah no I think there's no bar there's nothing that stops a judge from considering that so let me give you an analogy which is a just a silly analogy if I send Mr Smith to prison um uh his entire company will fall and there'll be 9 000 people unemployed It's Not Unusual in sentencing that you will consider what broadly the scholars talk about third party harms yeah and so yes a judge could there's no question a judge could consider that um you know there's no question about it whether they should and how that would figure in who knows yeah it judge Curtner I I have a question about the island Cannon thing too and she's the justice that was basically ridiculed from coast to coast um about her decision of making saying the FBI uh blocking the FBI from these documents until they had this special Master review I mean so she could either be you know chastened and humiliated by what happened to her or she could be digging in she's one of the justices that came up through the federal society that they were very instrumental in getting judges Kavanaugh on the court Amy Coney Barrett judge Gorsuch very conservative but more concerned about things I think and if I'm wrong like about abortion and social issues I don't think they're necessarily uh let's throw Law and Order out the window I don't think that's their thing I don't think um so but like the question is you mentioned before that this Justice Canada could put her finger on the scale judge what judge judge yeah judge Justice she could put her finger on the scale and um if she were to put her finger on the scale and make it very difficult for the prosecutors and somehow you know you're you're a judge you can see what you can influence what the jury hears and doesn't hear and all that maybe she went if she could go overboard and the jury um a quits is that the end of it or so there's no like there's no like appealing the way she conducted the court room uh testimony or the discovery or any of those things she could do it the way she wants and even if it seems to strain the normal procedures she could just do it and and that could be the end of it an acquittal in the the United States is the end of the discussion okay by the way however she tries the case that resulted in acquittal it would be it would be over okay something can do things during the can can um uh object and try to file appeals from uh rulings that they think are wrong um they can they they can file what's known as an interlocutory appeal which is a an appeal before the case is over those kinds of appeals are rarely granted usually a court of appeals will say let's wait for the whole case to be over but again the who knows what the what would happen in this case um uh I'm having a blocking on um uh the uh the Trump Ally that was tried for money laundering bank fraud oh Paul um that's right he went before a judge who was constantly out of Lane who was constantly summarizing um the the defense evidence Etc government did not do anything and ultimately manafort was uh convicted but you know if the government doesn't seek interlocutory appeal of some really crazy opinions or if the court of appeals doesn't take an interlocutory appeal uh and he is acquitted he is acquitted yeah there's nothing more one question last question but I just want to read something it was just on CNN the Speaker of the House says this is incredible to me it's unconscionable for a president meaning Biden to indict the leading candidate of the opposing that is opposing him so basically Fanning the Flames for all those who want to this is just unconscionable last question is particularly in light of the fact I said what a fabulous defense attorney you are last night uh there was a lawyer uh Jim trustee who was on CNN one of Trump's lawyers defending him he and this other lawyer John Rawley both resigned from Trump's legal team this morning and Trump posted the following for purposes of fighting the greatest Witch Hunt of all time now moving to the Florida courts I'll be represented by I just Todd Blanche Esquire and a firm to be named later we just want to make sure that's not your firm is that correct it's like a player to be named later exactly you're not the player are you no no I'm I'm not the player but I mean I can think of a couple of people who might want it I know who that person is by the way that's right that's right who is it we can say okay say it yeah say it you should just Alan dershowitz yeah oh God Alan dershowitz okay I mean but but let me let me say one other thing the the um uh in one sense the the Press has been chafing at the fact that the indictment is sealed and won't be unsealed in the ordinary course until Tuesday and they want uh they want to have Jack Smith come forward and you know and and try to move to unseal it given the clatter on the other side there's an argument that he shouldn't do that that he we should he should wait until Tuesday in the ordinary course because it may be that everyone will have egg on their face if this indictment is more than just oh my goodness he unlawfully retained documents but if the indictment includes and I don't know if it does that he showed them to people that he talked about it that he actually actively promoted the information that he had my that would be a different matter and then presumably even the people who are coming out now and talking about a Witch Hunt will have egg on their face well remember uh Caitlin Collins in the town hall on CNN asked the president if he'd shown these documents to anyone and he danced around the answer he didn't really say no he didn't say yes but he didn't say no either and I wondered wow I mean I think the other thing is you know people he has admitted to the underlying case yes it's really when you think about what has to be litigated that the documents were in his home clear that he knew that they were somewhat classified they were classified on their face that he knew that he wasn't supposed to have it even if that weren't clear in January of 2021 it was certainly clear by mid-2022 um and and then he is saying not only do I have these documents but I have a right to have these documents and he was saying I Declassified them now he's not saying that anymore I mean he has admitted to the Bedrock of the case and so the notion that Jack Smith could say well you know no harm no foul just doesn't mean right and supposedly they had this document that he was holding I don't know if he was showing it to people at bent Minster when uh people were there yes among group people saying and this was about a plan to invade Iran and he was talking about I couldn't declassify it because I'd already I can't declassify this because I already left the White House so that seems to be a big time admission right I mean I think that you know given what his inability to control what he says um uh why are the you know the the the numbers of lawyers who uh who figure into the grand jury presentation these are lawyers who lost Trump loses the attorney client privilege because he was using lawyers basically to evade a legal requirement right legal advice so the testimony against him could well be as the January 6 presentation was largely by people who were in his camp um so no I I I think that the the only play I mean we'll have to see what the evidence looks like but certainly an important play for him will be delayed Nancy Gardner judge gergner we really appreciate your time as always you know you had a busy day thanks so much thank you very much Nancy gertner we've been talking with retired federal judge Nancy gertner she's a senior lecturer at Harvard Law School in the Boston Public Radio contributor up next we are going to take a musical break we are so excited before opening the phone and text lines again on Trump's historical Federal indictment so we can all get really depressed it's time for a live music Friday performance courtesy of Mary Goshay the singer songwriter and the first gay singer to play the Grand old Opry in Nashville she is here next you're listening to Boston Public Radio 897 gbh [Music] thank you [Music] foreign [Music] I'm from Haverhill Massachusetts and I'm an immigrant I'm a Latina and what matters to me is community which is my family my children and I have made a personal commitment to amplify leaders of color in my spaces specifically the planning and Community Development field your voice matters gbh 89 7 what matters to you support for gbh comes from you and South County Rhode Island featuring 100 miles of Coastline and 20 public beaches South County visitors can find many ways to enjoy the water in the ocean state learn more at southcountyri.com and Comcast business committed to providing connectivity for your business by offering cyber security Internet and mobile solutions Comcast business powering possibilities restrictions apply Comcast Business Internet required trusted local news you're listening to 89 7 WGBH HD1 Boston online at gbhnews.org gbh news with NPR what matters to you welcome back to Boston Public Radio Jim broughty madrigan we're live at the Boston Public Library streaming at youtube.com gbhnews facebook.com gbh news we're now joined by legendary singer songwriter Mary Goshay if you want to catch her in person you've got about five minutes to get to the library all there's another good option you can catch her tonight at the Great Club Pastime in Harvard Square she has a sold out show at seven but there are a couple tickets left for 9 30. for more information go to passim passim.org Mary we're thrilled to have you here thanks so much for coming yeah thank you thank you taught and written in in your book said by a song a lot about how songwriting can help deal with with trauma so what were you talking about you know I I found it uh sort of through trial and error in my own life writing songs that that songs were part of me staying sober I got sober in July of 1990 thanks to the uh friendly police in Dorchester after I got arrested for drunk driving I had to come to Jesus moment and I realized uh Mary you have a problem and so I got sober and in my sobriety I got brought over to Clubhouse theme in Harvard Square and I I saw how original songs were made and played and how you get started and I started writing songs and I began writing about my truth and next thing you know I I'm staying sober 10 years go by and I decided I'm going to do this for real and I became a songwriter moved to Nashville in 2001. and uh through music and song I've stabilized and and I found that uh singing through hard stuff connects people and then I got asked to write with Wounded veterans tell us about that a little bit yeah yeah at about 20 years sober I was invited to participate in a program called songwriting with soldiers which pairs professional songwriters with Wounded veterans and their families and I had the experience behind me of knowing the the Alchemy of music and song and the transformative properties particularly around trauma because as my understanding uh goes and I was taught by the great doctor vessel Van Der kolk who's based here in the Boston area the trauma is removal and so when you are deeply traumatized you're very removed and and that's why there's such a crisis of Veteran suicide so getting people back is the Hope and we can do this through music and song Because when a song is working it connects and people come forward with the two big words you need to hear so desperately me too and it transcends all the politics and all the belief systems and all the divisive things because it goes to the core of what it means to be human it's not a political or a belief system based thing we don't sing about beliefs we sing about emotion you know when you say you get sober in 1990 after drunk driving arrest how did you get sober I mean so many people that we all know in our lives have tried and failed and tried and failed what what worked for you I don't own the answer to that you know I just know laying on the floor in area B something happened to me and I just uh I surrendered I just gave up I realized there was a war I lost drugs and alcohol one I had to find another way and I asked for help and there's so much help available when you're ready and willing to ask for help you know Mary O'Shea I know a lot about your music and songwriting life I knew nothing about your prior life in the restaurant business in Boston yeah were you a a business kind of person or were you a chef or were you both will work both yeah I had a restaurant around the corner from here called the Dixie Kitchen restaurant I did Cajun food for almost 10 years on Massachusetts Avenue were you good um good night great we had a a we had a concept that really worked everything was under ten dollars um it was traditional Cajun cuisine I was born in New Orleans I'm originally from Louisiana we had the plastic uh sort of taped on uh uh tablecloths uh Trivial Pursuit cards on the table oh we were fast and and we moved quickly uh the line we had po boys we had jambalaya we had gumbo so the concept wasn't fine fine cuisine although I went to the Cambridge school of culinary arts and graduated from there yeah I didn't know there was a Cambridge wow did not know that you know when you listened everybody who knows your music knows you're you're a pretty courageous Soul which you write about what you're willing to talk about and thinking of Courage I think Marjorie said this one should be first she introduced you when she was teasing and comp coming you were uh uh OG at the Grand Ole Opry what's that mean original gay original gay so when you walked out on the stage weren't you terrified or what were you here's what happened Marty Stewart who was in line at the time for Porter Wagner's job as the Master of Ceremonies of the Grand old Opry the longest running live radio variety show in the world Marty Stewart brought me on it was on national television and I did not show up in a pride shirt or with a rainbow flag I just showed up as me Marty wanted me to play my song Mercy now he wanted to make a statement but he couldn't so he had me make his statement for him and I didn't announce that this was a lesbian singing to you live from the stage I just showed up as me and it was historic because I was the first openly gay person to take the stage obviously not the first gay person and nothing really was frightening about it because Marty had my back yeah what year is this ah 2001. I'm nervous not that long ago not really no not that long ago but that's a very conservative institution yes yes so you're going to play a couple things for us the thing I'm nervous about is I'm afraid to ask are you going to play mercy now because if you say no I'm going to be upset I'm playing it oh you are oh you are so do you want to do that and then you come back and talk a little bit this is one of the great this is Mary Goshay as you've learned she'll be a club pass theme tonight seven o'clock show is sold out there are a few tickets left for the later show you go to passim pass.com to this fabulous I was institutional I hope people don't consider that to be a pajar thing it's such an important historical place this is one of the great songs ever Mercy now performed by Mary Goshay [Music] well my father sure could use a little Mercy now the fruits of his labor fall and ride slowly on the ground [Music] his work is almost over won't be long he won't be around I love my father [Music] you some mercy now [Music] and my brother sure could use a little Mercy now he's a stranger to Freedom Shackled to his fear and doubt pain that he lives in it's almost more than living well alive I love my brother he could use some mercy now [Music] my church in my country they could use a little mercina as they sink into a poison pit it's gonna take forever to climb out [Music] very Lloyd who follow them down I love my church and Country they could use some mercy now [Music] every living thing could use a little merchandise [Music] only the hand of Grace can Embrace towards another mushroom cloud [Music] there's people in power we'll do anything to keep their Crown I love life life itself could you lose singing [Music] [Applause] [Music] yeah we are we all could use a little Mercy now oh I know we don't deserve it but we needed anyhow [Music] we hang in the balance we dangle between hell and hallowed the ground and every single one of us could use some mercy now every single one of us could use some mercy now [Music] [Applause] [Music] thank you come back and join us please Mercy now which is just a spectacular song again at Club pass theme tonight uh seven o'clock show sold out later show a couple tickets left go to passime.com why'd you bring the book back because I have a feeling you're going to ask a question that I could answer with a short paragraph from the book why don't you ask yourself the question you want to ask and then answer it from your book and tell us saved by a song of 2021 I think it came in yeah it came out in 21. it's called saved by a song which is sort of My Story music and song I've Been a form of salvation for me and then I watched it work for so many wounded veterans to have that story that they were struggling to tell be told by song and have people come up to them and say I see you I am you the me too is a very powerful thing when you feel removed so when people ask me if I believe Psalms can change the world my answer is always yes I believe it absolutely and I think I understand how it works a song has the power to change a heart songs can generate empathy a changed heart then has the power to change a mind and when a mind changes a person changes when people change the world changes one song one heart one mind one person at a time Bruce Springsteen says music is a repair shop basically I'm a repairman [Laughter] the boss knows the boss is right songs do have the power to repair hearts and help heal Souls that's why I call my book saved by saved by a song Mary go show you so tell us certain gay I know you were adopted and you dealt with that when you talk about the trauma it was all those things together going through being dealing with the alcoholism all those things together that kind of combined to what you put in this book yes yes see I was adopted at a year old and in a closed adoption system which means I was never going to be allowed to have my original birth certificate and I'm still not allowed to have my original birth certificate but I found later in life a way to to get some of my story anyway but I was adopted at a year old so I spent a year in what they called an orphanage which is a strange thing when you have parents to be an orphanage yes it was in New Orleans and I was adopted by a Catholic couple it was a Catholic orphanage and brought to Baton Rouge from New Orleans but something in me didn't feel right as I became a teenager I just felt I didn't know what it was and as I got a little older I moved to drugs and alcohol really quickly and it took me until my mid to late 40s to realize that year in that orphanage did something to me and then I found out through music actually playing in New Orleans somebody told me their mom volunteered at the orphanage to hold the babies because there were more babies than nuns it's like oh my God so I think that that early trauma really did a number on me and it was a removal and that feeling of removal I could Bridge with drugs and alcohol but it was temporary it wasn't a solution it was a Band-Aid and when you talk about being removed in terms of your story or in terms of veterans I think you mean being removed from your feelings or being removed from self and being removed from Community always feeling uh like an outsider looking in or a a plate of glass between me and my ability to fully connect uh and and uh taking that glass apart has been my life's work and I was just so blessed that I ended up with a guitar in my hand and an art form that can alchemize some of the trauma and bring me home and help help me to to to help others to come home yeah you talk like you sing I guess that's not a surprise you know what I mean so by the way uh ajda from Somerville texted in I remember the Dixon kitchen and went there often as a Berkeley student I missed their shrimp po boys I haven't found anything like it in Boston ever since then so somebody thinks you're a pretty good cook we have a lot of text messages about a great performance that you did I think it was in uh Yarmouth Port last year at the Harwich crayon Festival yep yeah and someone else wants me to ask you about Miss folk America by faith Solway and wants to know if you're chilling is still in touch with any of the Stars Katie Curtis Jennifer Kimball Laura McKinnon so tell tell that's from Greg in Arlington misspoke America is a spoof on the Miss America contest and a lot of us female folk singers here in Boston were part of that Faith Solway is the older sister of Joey Solway the creator of transparent which was a television yes their comedian which is now about to be on Broadway by the way transparent the musical yes indeed on its way couldn't be more proud of my friend Faith Sol away and I was on the plane here yesterday with Lori McKenna who goes back and forth to Nashville writing I see I see these women regularly and I'm I'm so happy to have that question she's a local she's down here saying girl crush on my show about six months I almost passed out you know speaking of that do you go to insulted when someone says I think of somebody else when I think of you is that okay are you going to get angry at me oh no it's did you get to meet him I worked with John for two years I did a lot of shows for John and he was a friend yeah and his wife Fiona still is yeah yeah well I mean he's very much missed is he not every single day so so let me ask you one more thing before you play for us again how'd this all happen to you how did you get together with the guitar and your ability to write music you've obviously got a great voice yeah I probably had that since you were a little girl but how'd this all happen I think there's a Divine Spirit or Angels or somebody has my back you know it wouldn't have happened if I didn't get sober and I probably wouldn't have gotten sober if I hadn't gotten arrested for drunk driving which felt like the worst day and most humiliating thing that ever happened to me turned out to be the springboard from which a whole new life was given to me so uh it's hard to answer that good question I I just find it all so mysterious and miraculous and I'm I'm amazed but but there's this Instinct that we all have inside us to live and survive and it it pushes us into things that that we wouldn't have do otherwise I think that's how I ended up with the guitar in my hand it was going to help me of course I didn't know that but it knew that somehow you know talk about the small circle she was talking about the solid ways fate Solway wrote band in Boston that you and I were just lucky enough to be a small part of an urban improv that's right everything else that they do what are you going to play for us well I have a new record out it's called dark enough to see the stars the title came out of a Dr Martin Luther King Jr speech and I'd love to play that if that's awesome Mary Goshay again saved by a song is the name of the book and latest CD is dark enough to see the stars and again she's at Club Pastime tonight p-a-s-s-i-m.com couple of tickets left for the late show and I think based in the last 20 minutes you know you want to be there here She is again Mary go Shea [Music] at the bottom of my Tears on the back side of my fear at the center of the pain I hear my voice call out your name days go by nothing works I can't believe how much this hurts foreign don't know where you are it's dark enough to see the stars us darken enough to see the stars dark enough to see the light in an ocean black and deep [Music] in the middle of the night as I hold on to your love like those lights from up above I have drifted out so far it's dark enough to see the stars curse the clock time is a thief please every life it measures breathe every child is born to die but the soul is Born to Fly under Heaven's canopy tiny diamonds you and me lightning bugs inside a jar it's dark enough to see the stars dark enough to see the stars dark enough to see the light in an ocean black and deep middle middle of night as I hold on to your love like those lights from up above I've drifted it out so far it's dark enough to see the stop s I've been carried out so far it's dark enough to see the stars that was the voice of Mary Goshay she has two shows tonight at Club Casino in Harvard Square the 7 PM as we said is sold out but there are tickets at least they were still available before we started the show I hope they're still available for 9 30 and the virtual streams as well for more information go to paseem.org uh thank you so much keeps saying.com my apologies is dot org uh I believe so that's what it says in front of me okay my apologies s-p-a-s-s-i-m.orgasim in pasium rather in Cambridge thank you so much to Mary thank you yeah that was fantastic okay back to reality after a quick break that was reality we were opening the phone and text floodgates we've been talking all throughout the show about the historic Federal indictment and former president Trump how are you reacting to the news do you want him uh to be uh convicted do you know you want to get acquitted you don't think we should be doing this at all well American democracy survive the never-ending Trump show and all his court and legal involvements numbers 877-301-8970 if you can call us or text us at that number [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] summer is heavily associated with going to the pool or the beach but many children from low-income communities don't know how to swim and it's generational their families have never swam they have a fear of the water how one non-profit organization is changing that with free swimming lessons taught by teens four teens more on all things considered from NPR news today at 4 here on gbh news 89 7. funding for our programs comes from you and Bunker Hill Community College offering students six-week summer sessions to help them achieve their college and skill goals two sessions starting June 5th and July 17th registration at bhcc.edu Summer and the Lyric Stage presenting rooted in this offbeat comedy all it takes is two sisters and a tree house to accidentally start a cult now through June 25th at lyricstage Boston tickets at lyricstage.com [Music] welcome back to Boston Public Radio Jim Brody and Marge Regan we're live in the library streaming at youtube.com gbhnews and facebook.com gbh news the rest of the show is yours calls and texts at 877-301-8970 obviously we're talking about the twice impeached now twice indicted former president Donald Trump remember this new indictment is on top of the 34 felony counts in New York the E Gene Carroll civil ruling that he had sexually abused her and defamed her potential of and by the way a new case there because she's amended her matter potential other charges about trying to steal an election in Georgia and of course the January 6th Insurrection investigation being done by the same special counsel that indicted him uh uh in the Mar-A-Lago case what's your reflection on this I mean some people are celebrating the news some people even who are not Trump fans are mourning the fact that it's come to the fact that a former president is being indicted on so many accounts I'm mourning my concern that uh democracy could go right down the tube with these indictments if tens of millions of people say even more energetically this is the kind of person we want to lead us the number is 877-301-8970 we played you just a little bit from Trump's post on last night a video on true social uh we played you some sound where it sounded to me when he's talking about Warfare that he was essentially once again inciting people to do horrible things here he is where he claims his indictment as just just another hoax they go after a popular president a president that got more votes than any sitting president in the history of our country by far and did much better the second time in the election than the first and they go after him on a boxer's house just like the Russia Russia Russia Hooks and all of the others this has been going on for seven years that they can't stop because it's election interference at the highest level there's never been anything like what's happened I'm an innocent man I'm an innocent person 877-301-8970 there's the indictee uh Tuesday he will at least he says he will be in court in Florida to answer to these seven charges which include conspiracy obstruction of justice which judge gertner suggested just a few minutes ago with us are really serious matters not trivial ones like some people consider the charges the criminal charges in New York City 877-301-8970 is this not still sort of an out-of-body experience well it is I mean it's it's uh it's it's I mean it's never happened before if criminal charges against a president or foreign president United States it hasn't it hasn't happened before as you all know I guess the closest we came to this was when the Republicans were not been told Richard Nixon he had to get out of office after the Watergate scandal but there was no Federal Criminal indictment against Richard Nixon so this is this is totally new territory and it's a very it's a very it's very upsetting time I mean what's upsetting is that as you keep parking harping on that so many Americans buy this guy's uh story and so many so-called leaders buy this yeah I'm rushing to his side well you know I don't think the Republicans that are defending a bias story I think they feel that they need them to get reelected so the people are putting their re-election in the Republican primary ahead of things you've had uh you know Jim Jordan rushing to say I don't know what he said it was a sad day for America or a dark day for America you know Kevin McCarthy saying this is Joe Biden essentially orchestrating this attack why is Ron DeSantis is running against him defending him well because Rhonda the only one who's really gone after him so far is Chris Christie right Chris Christie Nikki Haley in kind of a veil way saying people over 75. well the competency test is going going directly at Trump but um I mean I Ron DeSantis is just kind of hoping that somehow he can go to the right of trump with none of the um appeal I mean you can Trump is a very successful TV star and people that are TV stars do very well as we know Ronald Reagan did very well when he ran over presidential TV star I mean Bill Clinton wasn't a TV star but he had that whole thing about him so you know Rhonda Santos does not have that um but you know Josh Hawley JD Vance Jim Jordan they're all kind of saying Margie Taylor Green Gates they're all kind of staying the same sort of thing this is just Grace this is a dark day this is terrible this is a a orchestrated attack by the Democrats I don't think they're doing that because they believe it I think they're doing that because they know they need to think Kevin McCarthy is doing it because he believes that I don't think so well Kevin McCarthy is one of the people who said on January 6 it's over essentially like Lindsey Graham and apparently it's not over 877-301-8970 so any Reflections you personally have uh in the wake of the announcement of these indictments announced by the way by Donald Trump himself and typical Trump fashion I should say I don't think we have a comment yet from the special counsel and probably won't till Tuesday oh by the way we as long as you mentioned Ron DeSantis uh what he said is why so zealous in pursuing Trump yet so passive about Hillary Clinton or Hunter Biden Hunter Biden is now under investigation by the Department of Justice right then there may well be some Shenanigans involving 100 Biden there's but no connection that anybody can point to that's telling the truth between Hunter Biden and Joe Biden and then we all recall how many Benghazi hearings do we have about Hillary eight or nine Benghazi hearings how many investigations of her emails of her server all these I don't think that was passive but this is kind of try they try to ghost light you and hope you don't remember all those investigations involving Hillary Clinton not to mention Hillary and her husband how long did White Water last when he was in the White House forever what do they find about white water the clintons lost money in Whitewater 877-301-8897 I'm really ready to have a stroke over the State of Affairs that's I am I just I am like I just can't believe I'm not naive but I guess I am I can't believe that people aren't standing up and saying this is a bridge too far from throwing your first on Boston Public Radio thank you much for calling hi friend hi yeah what's up okay I would love to see this guy finally Behind Bars we've had enough the January 6th Insurrection uh his cast of passes rise of stone of Lynn manafort they're all a bunch of her books um the most disturbing thing I heard today was the fact that judge Arlene Cannon is going to be yeah sitting and hearing the case that to me is unbelievable unbelievable for the thank you well actually judge gertner says that's not necessarily the case her understanding is it was a random selection but for those who are not lyfran thank you we're not listening earlier in the show Aileen Cannon is the one who basically was appointed nominated by Trump went in the tank for Trump and then was excoriated in a ruling by her superiors Appellate Court uh federal courts and amazingly at least temporarily is the judge in the new Trump proceedings Nancy Gardner says it's not clear she'll be there the whole way around Marjorie asked the question about whether or not she'd be chasing by the embarrassment she went through who the hell knows 877-301-8970 could you play that little little bit of what Trump just had to say a couple of minutes ago back in Brighton please I'm an innocent man I'm an innocent person yeah you know what sounds exactly like one of the most famous quotes in American history from Richard Nixon remember what he said I am not a crook I am not a crook I know I am not and it turns out of course he wasn't correct exactly you know Maggie haverman a great reporter who wrote a book about uh Trump called confidence man has reported on him so she used to work at the New York Post and he was calling out gossip writers in Boston I mean New York City pretending to be somebody that he wasn't John Barron I think was his name something like that he never played those tapes it sounds exactly like him yeah everybody John Baron and he named his kid uh Baron he doesn't like his sunburn because Baron is tall and he is I guess that really annoys him but like Maggie Hebron is this piece about how Trump was gathered with his political advisors in the office near his poolside Cottage at his Club in bent Mr New Jersey when the phone rang about seven o'clock on Thursday night it was one of his lawyers calling them uh to hit to tell him he had been indicted and I love the way she reminded us all of this he had been indicted for the second time in less than three months yeah well she also goes on to say there it's significant which I think it is it's so Trump he's surrounded by political and Communications advisors not by lawyers even though once they got the target letter he knew that a a a an indictment or set of indictments was very likely to happen Victor in Rhode Island welcome back Victor yeah hi hey yeah what's up well I am anti-trump and I believe in the rule law but I don't think that we could be celebrating um what is happening here this is really horrible and uh the Republicans of this weaponizing this I mean they say Democrats are weaponizing this the Republicans are this this is a sad day for a country well you know Victor I have to say I wouldn't use the word celebrate to describe how I'm feeling and I can't even come up with a verb but I'm actually pleased I guess is a better word that uh the justice department was willing to stand up to criminality even if it comes from a person who was once the most powerful person on the planet I guess I should say alleged criminality that to me shows that one part of our system works the only question as I said at 11 o'clock is does the Democracy part of our system work and that remains to be seen Victor thanks for the call 877-301-897 you know what picture races is is the question do you want the former president to be prosecuted or don't you and some people think we that's a bad idea even some people who think he's committed a crime don't think through prosecuted yes I mean there was a big debate over Nixon although you know Nixon needless to say was at a lower level than Trump at least by these accusations that we're talking about in the case that he just was found guilty of of sexually assaulting a woman and then defaming her um but so do you want us to be a government of laws or don't you and I guess to me it's important that you're not let it get let someone get away with this even if they are the president United States I mean it's a big deal I think to share classified information or to take class of information about wars and and plans to invade other countries like Iran and we know and he we have a tape of him saying he's got that information and he knew he was supposed to give it back can I make up this kid down in Dighton that was uh doing the um took Sarah that was do the national Guardsman that was putting stuff online about classified documents and he's facing what 25 years in prison he's probably going to do a lot of years in prison can I speak to the whole issue you broached about you know even if he committed a crime is it in the interest of this country to prosecute him Jill wine Banks who you probably remember she's on MSNBC from time to time now she was the only woman on the Watergate prosecution team Richard Nixon and I interviewed her on Greater Boston before I left a couple of months ago and I asked her uh she said to me I don't know if I asked her if she just volunteered she was then an outlier in that group she believed that he should be prosecuted criminally and you know why she said which is really prescient I think the reason Joe wine Banks thought that Richard Nixon should be criminally prosecuted because she said it would send a message to the next Richard Nixon and I would argue Trump is Richard Nixon on steroids that if you do this you're gonna have to pay a price Trump I'm assuming operated under the assumption it's never happened before I've got away with everything in my life and I'm going to continue to get away with this had Nixon been prosecuted it's very possible even Trump as Lawless as he is might have said this is not something but I want to do and that's why this prosecution is so important in my estimation regardless of outcome it's so important so the next Donald Trump next year or 20 years from now knows that there's a price to pay for illegal Behavior that's a risk to this country well all I know is that it's incredible and really depressing that he didn't pay contractors you know I had all these people working in his casinos got away with that he ran a racist apartment complex in New York City he was found to have run a racist apartment complex by the courts he got away with that he defrauded all these people that were hoping to learn about business at Trump University and it was so bad he had to pay 25 million dollars and the charity was so corrupt that the state of New York said neither he nor his children Ivanka and Don Jr and I think Eric as well I'm not sure Baron so far has escaped and he criminal applications and the other daughter has escaped any kind of criminal Tiffany But but so but that they can't run a charity again in the state of New York the corruption has been has been litigated over and over and over or the stealing litigated over and over and I guess he thought he could get away with it almost anything I think that's true because he has he said right should somebody on Fifth Avenue Kim in Foxboro thanks for your patience you're on Boston Public Radio welcome welcome our thank you you're welcome sure I uh done then but I want to agree with both of you um but thankfully uh I but I don't think uh with all the people that have said this I don't think that it's the days or time when we should be bad I think at the time when we should celebrate our democracy um because our democracy has proven that it is strong enough to do the right thing and that it can survive um The Evils that have been put upon it by this by this person Kim I half agreed with you it proves that our democracy can do the right thing I don't know that we know yet that it can survive because I for one worry about how the trumpets and potential trumpists are going to react to this but the first half of what you said I think is totally true whether it's celebrate or some other word it proves that no person at least at this stage of the process is above the law which is one of the central principles of our democracy Kim thank you for the call here's Kyrie from Worcester I think the unprecedented nature about this is another example of America exceptionalism at play like you said before other democracies have tried their former leaders and survived why are we pretending that this shouldn't apply to us too I think this should be the first Domino and leaders actually being held accountable and it should have started a long time ago you remember what Drake Steve said in response that when Rick was with us in person for a change a couple of hours ago we talked about leaders of Italy France other places who've been tried convicted and jailed and how those countries survived maybe prospered he talked about the flip side look at those countries that have not prosecuted he cited Mussolini as an example and he's done a lot of public work on elected leaders who became fascists and the consequence of failure to prosecute so every argument I've heard is you break the law you pay the price Tom in Canterbury Connecticut hi hi I I the effect this thing has had on me is that I don't watch the news anymore because everybody's you can't really tell what's going on because this guy says this and that guy says that the Republicans have you know their range of people saying things the Democrats and the it's just I can't follow it I just so I don't watch TV much anymore I can't take very much of uh MSNBC I watched a little you know five minutes of Ms Morning Joe is about a about all I can take him and the only times I watched CNN is when uh John King is on because he seems like the only guy that plays things straight or relatively straight well can I make a suggestion that Marjorie might make Tom I don't mean to be disrespectful read a damn newspaper I mean maybe try that read The Washington Post read the Boston Globe read the New York Times read The Wall Street Journal read the book they have wacky editorials but they're reporting is is is is very good newspapers actually report the news a lot more than kids is a really danger with all due respect is a really really dangerous proposition and I think there's a lot more clarity out there than you but here's suggestions here's the thing that I think a lot of people that are in the Trump cult don't want to acknowledge you know uh you don't mean him no no the people that that are in this Trump of um you know believing all this stuff Fox News just had to pay how much money 787 million dollars yeah 787 million dollars for knowingly lying over and over and over and over again there are Sean Hannity Maria bartorama or whatever her name is and they're doing it again now lying about the election they knew the election was was fair and square they knew there was not there's always voter fraud and elections but nowhere near the voter fraud that would have had any outcome in this election they knew it and they said it over and over again so you know for sure they're they're lying MSNBC is obviously very liberal in their biased against Trump but if they're not lying in the same way that fox is or some of these right-wing talk show host there's a difference between opinion um and and lying Barbara from Spencer thank you for calling hey hi thanks I'm so glad I got in I totally totally agree with everything Jim is saying I do believe he should be prosecuted um this whole thing about the missing documents concerns me especially when they're talking about Iran what bothers me is the fact that they have only search for the documents at Mar-A-Lago however if you all recall and I never hear any of this uh back and I think it was about July of uh either 21 or 22. he hosted the Saudis at his golf course in New Jersey now that might be just a coincidence but missing documents Saudis Iran well can I tell you something that I think will make you feel a little better I don't know the special counsel personally but I've read every word I can find about this guy and I would say if there's something to be found that was untoward Behavior this character will find it so uh maybe it's not comforting you on Nancy gertner judge gertner made a wonderful point I think we really don't know I mean the crimes for which he has been indicted based on the reporting so far these seven are pretty serious we have no idea if that's the whole kettle of fish or if there is more to come Tuesday in court so I I would say Barbara I understand your anxiety but I would stay tuned this guy has a record of being really comprehensive meaning the special counsel and really thorough and really competent so keep the faithful because it's just too coincidence I got it yeah no one talks about him hosting them at his golf course in New Jersey well I'm really glad you're called thanks Barbara we appreciate you know I I think that uh Jack Smith is a different person than Robert Mueller I mean Robert Mueller did find was it 10 or 12 instances of obstruction of justice in the Mueller report but then of course we all remember what happened attorney general Barr before he changed his mind about Trump came out and defended Trump uh and kind of lied basically about what the moment said now he's he's changed his mind I don't know if he was uh no longer invited to dinner parties in Georgetown the attorney general has changed his mind but I I don't and we all I think we're fairly disappointed in Robert mullica's Robert Mueller was an older man who seemed not to be at the very top of his game when he testified I don't think we had that problem with Jack read this from The Business Insider before we take a break do you see this uh okay Trump was DJing on the patio at bestminster and playing Elvis Pavarotti and James Brown tracks from an iPad after he found out about his second indictment the only tell you if I found out about a set of indictments that's what I'd be doing I'd be DJing maybe throwing a little Springsteen maybe a little Mary Goshay oh people are asking by the way they're looking up her music it's not spelled the way it sounds it's Mary God it looks like gothier but g-a-u-t-h-i-e-r you don't pronounce it that way but it's spelled gothier if you look her up it's Mary goth here okay we're gonna take a quick break and then we're going to come back and and take more uh texts and calls from all of you we're talking about the indictment of the foreign president United States is Maggie Haven points out the New York Times the second indictment of the president in three months this is a criminal indictment as opposed to a civil indictment we are taking your calls at 877-301-8970 we have broadcasting live from the Boston Public Library and we are streaming at youtube.com gbhnews and facebook.com gbh news [Music] all right UK prime minister sunat talks trade artificial intelligence and the war in Ukraine on a visit to Washington kiev's Long planned counter-offensive appears to have started as the damn destruction Blame Game unfolds the higher electric power station has been irreversibly destroyed and is beyond Japan and an earthquake hits Haiti days after severe flooding this afternoon at 2 here on gbh news 89 7. our programs are made possible thanks to you and Mass General Brigham Health Plan a Health Plan connected to a world-leading Health Care System committed to providing Innovative plans coverage and a broad network of doctors learn more at Mass General brighamhealthplan.org and the Boston Foundation knowing it will take all of us to improve lives and strengthen communities TBF partners with leaders and change makers to close opportunity gaps Advance equity and power of better Boston learn more at tbf.org [Music] welcome back to Boston Public Radio Jim Brownie and Marjorie eager for streaming at youtube.com gbh news from the Boston Public Library and facebook.com gbh news uh uh by the way I'm a little embarrassed we often say we don't know something about history I didn't know what Jamie just told us when that when people were texting saying how do you pronounce Mary goshay's last name and you spelled it for well Marjorie did you know this what that if you go to our website at gbhnews.org BPR you can see the names of not only all the guests we had on the show today but the names of all the guests we're gonna have on the show tomorrow I did not know that do you know that no I probably should have known that I did not so you did not need to text Marjorie or me just go to gbhnews.org PPR here's a text from Jim in Rockport Trump is a con man the people who are being conned want to believe that he's not a crook they want to believe that he's fighting for them any good con must have people who want to believe the Khan that that's why it works so well I want to disagree with that what's that person's name Jim I think they know he's a crook and they don't care I don't think they don't believe he is I think it's mixed well I think I mean how can you I know you and I have this debate every day so I'll be really well I won't even say it well I will say it I don't care if you watch Fox News 24 hours a day a sane person who is upright cannot at least a significant chunk of those people cannot think that every charge against this guy every allegation of sexual abuse or rape every criminal charge that all of them are bogus it's just not possible it's a Witch Hunt gym they're coming after him because they don't like his Pisces these women are coming after them because they want to write books and make money even though none of them have made money off this as far as I know it's one of them made money I don't think oh well Eugene Carol is going to write a book now she's going to write a book oh I'm sorry uh so she may she may make some money but her previous book made seventy thousand dollars sorry I was going to say and that's what they say this is a big Democrats conspiracy the Democrats are after them the the judicial system is corrupt 70 million people believe that uh it's interesting how when there was talk from the black lives matter movement this was a bad phrase if you find the police thing I wish they'd never said that but now I know they're Republicans want to do fun yeah so he never should have said defund the cops but now it's okay to defund the FBI and this is all a conspiracy that's part of the justice department that's what they're saying it's all I mean Steve said it you and this is what all authoritarians do right yes did you discredit all institutions the government the president Supreme Court et cetera et cetera Etc Gino and Salem hi you gotta turn the radio down Gino okay Gino put you on hold we'll get to you in a minute uh I think most people know when you call our show because there's a brief delay you got to turn your radio down or else we hear ourselves which is not good for anybody Peter and Hopedale what's up hi Dan hi what's up I I'm originally British but I've lived in America for for 40 years great and um my relatives and friends in Europe can't believe how gullible Americans Peter you are my hero take as long as you want I am so with you go ahead yeah I mean this guy has made it it's his entire life is to be a cheat and a cook and I would be ashamed to say that I support him and I think all our politicians who know better and are supporting him should be ashamed of themselves Peter I love you and all your family members who are back in the UK thank you but he already says they're gullible that they that they believe it that's what it means right yeah you're always telling me on gobble you are occasionally and uh only Jim has that laser vision well except remember we both humiliate ourselves with Andrew Cabral yesterday on that decision on the Alabama district humiliated myself a lot well so have I we should keep a record of humiliations and who wins months by month this is Jim from Rockport is this a gentleman text me oh my God oh my goodness what's up well it is Jim from Rockport now you didn't agree you Jim you didn't agree with what I said that's right what'd you say again give it to him Jim a long time ago what'd you say the American people on his side want to believe the Khan just like in Love or Money over the internet people get ripped off the American people are not as bright as you think they are Jim anymore they don't want to look at magazines they don't want to look at news they just want to believe like any good cons that it's true and that's all they don't want to look into anything else how does that make you feel how does that make you feel uh Jim it makes me Furious that this country is in a lot of trouble that's how I feel but you know something Jim I always like to say when people say that people aren't as smart as they think they are I I do know people that are really smart people that have read more than I will ever read in my entire life of History you know thousand page books about history and they are they say they're not in the Trump camp but they are in the Trump Camp there's something appealing about him uh people like that there's there's a lot of people frankly are racist and he's brought that out in people well it's also the pot remember when we uh Jim thank you for calling in texting whatever else a lot of people don't like women you remember that out in 2016 we've told the story but not recently Marty and I went to New Hampshire is we have every four years for primary season we would ask people who are uncommitted who were they deciding between right and the most common answer was what they were trying to decide between Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump why was that because they're both populous yeah and they're both promising they were going to be good to you and they're going to lower your taxes and they want to get you Medicare and they want to get you a reasonably priced drugs and they were angry at the same institution that's right we're angry and one was legit and one was a fraud right so I buy your notion that in 2016 a lot of people who feel they've been treated poorly by big institutions would gravitate to Trump I don't buy after four years criminal indictments liability for sexual abuse 24 credible arguments saying that they were sexually harassed Joe Biden beat him and why you think Joe Biden was not despite all the tumbles of Joe Biden of his age and the gaps and all that kind of stuff I I just think if Trump isn't Republican nominee he'll lose by a lot Daniel and Somerville thanks for calling you have a minute and a half or a minute or something whatever I think hey um I think a lot of our leaders um Democrat and Republican have been corrupt over many years and have done a lot of bad things so I get why people say I think what Trump has done is worse but I get why people say well he's a crook but they're all Crooks so we're still going to vote for him and I don't know I think it's I think a lot of our institutions have discredited themselves by being this way and Trump is kind of a natural conclusion yeah the thing is Daniel I hear that a lot too I I don't think Crooks I mean I think there are a lot of people who are not making money they're doing good things I mean there's a lot of senators that probably have done insider trading and all these things with their that they shouldn't have done maybe there are a lot of people in the Senate but I I don't buy the they're all Crooks thing I've known so everything is relative even a few their perception is right and I'm with Marjorie Daniel on this and thank you for the call and let's assume Hunter Biden has done everything horrible but he's accused of to my knowledge he has not attempted to steal a presidential election he has not done anything close to what Donald Trump's accused of so there is a false equivalency thing which a lot of us fell prey to in the Clinton uh Trump race in 2016 but regardless that's where we are we're out of time we are out of time okay well by the way there are CNN's reporting their additional uh uh charges against both Trump and his associate Walt Nora uh the unseal indictment in the New York Times says that Trump stored boxes containing classified documents including in a ballroom a bathroom a shower as well as in his office and bedroom his lawyers had told investigators documents were kept only in a storage room so the story is far from over some of his lawyers are going to be in trouble too for uh lying under why do you think they're abandoning ship yeah okay that's all right thank you very much for listening to another edition of Boston Public Radio thank you to people that came down here to the Boston Public Library we really really appreciate it hope you enjoyed Today's show you can keep up with us 24 7 by way of our podcast on Monday we're going to have embraced Boston CEO Amari Paris Jeffries will join us at this year's Embrace ideas Festival we'll tell you all about that we're also going to talk about the naacp's Michael Curry the reverence Ironman Rowan mhg price of third for all revved up front lines AC Thomas with his latest documentary America's dangerous trucks all about these oversized cars and trucks a lot of us are driving around in and stand-up comedian John early ahead of his show at the Wilbur Theater I want to thank our crew Chelsea Chelsea emerge about four years ago yep just popped up there actually our producer's right next to me his name is Jane bologna Chelsea Murray used to be here Zoe Matthews Aidan Conley Nicole Garcia Hannah loss our engineer John the club Parker and as always want to thank our staff here at the Boston Public Library Evelyn Britto Colin Cockrell Matthew Glover and Sandra Lopez Burke can I quickly just read you yes I may a federal judge in Florida has unsealed the indictment of 49-page indictment at three o'clock this afternoon Jack Smith the special counsel will speak he will not take questions three o'clock today I'm sure you'll hear about it on NPR stick around have a wonderful I'll tell you what I wouldn't want Jack Smith Prosecuting me I'll tell you that right now I mean we're near me we'll see you on Monday have a great weekend happy Pride everybody happy Pride he's Jim Brady thanks for tuning in and as Jim said hope you have a great weekend and hope you can tune in on Monday bye [Music] foreign [Music]

Channel: GBH News

Views: 20,105

Keywords: Boston, Massachusetts, WGBH, GBH

Id: awSy9lYj5UI

Length: 172min 45sec (10365 seconds)

Published: Fri Jun 09 2023