body/soul or body/soul/spirit

Karl asked a pastor working there what's the difference between the soul and the spirit I thought they were the same thing are they two different things could you show me from the scripture at least he asked something like that and this is a great question Karl because there's been a long fight about this in church history and second I actually don't I don't know the answer I I know the way that the old Lutheran's talk about it that there's just body and soul we don't get into this tripartite division of mind or of body and soul and spirit and so forth but I don't know why we say that and I'm not sure from what scriptures we derive our doctrines so this is a really good question because it gives me a chance but don't worry by the way at the end of the video we'll know the answer but but I think this is an opportunity to actually walk you guys you YouTube theologians how to explore a theological question I'm going to I'm going to take you through the process that I use to sort these things out and and this again is the best I mean the questions that we don't know the answers to are the best questions because it's not like the answers aren't out there right I mean the Lord has told us everything we need to know in the scriptures and so forth so we just got to go and dig it out and do the work to come to the conclusion so I'm going to take you guys with me on the journey today and by the end of the day we're gonna know this we're gonna know the the relevant biblical passages and the language we need to use to talk about the body and the soul and the spirit so thanks for the question Karl I want to give two pieces two pieces of advice when we're starting to explore these kind of things the first is that we that we don't start with the Internet now I know that's somewhat ironic because you're probably watching this video because you were searching on the internet for what's the difference between body and soul in the Bible anyway don't start with the Internet we'll come back to that later but the second is to remember that we're not we're not the first ones to have this conversation and try to figure this out but the church has been asking and exploring these things for a long time books you got to look at books so here's what I'm gonna do I'm gonna write soul and spirit on up on a blank page there and I'm gonna start taking notes and gathering stuff up now the two things I'm after at the first stage of this investigation is number one how is the conversation gone before and then number two what are the relevant scripture passages I want to knowing that I'm not the first guy to try to figure this stuff out I'm gonna try to look and see where people have talked about it before now it used to be that I would go to peepers there's a great peepers dogmatix is a four-volume can you see that this is volume two which is gonna be there volume one the relevant volume and I would go to that I would go to that first I'd look in the index and I'd look up soul and I'd do that which I'm gonna do but now I have a new process I've got this book the even the doctrine the Evangelical Lutheran Church by Heinrich Schmitt now the reason why this book is so important is because it gives you a survey of all the different dogmatix and this I'm gonna put a link to it but you can download this thing for free you can get the PDF all 700 pages of it you can get this for like 20 bucks or something I republish that this is such a important treasure but you can download it for free and that gives everybody watching can just have this book and have it at your hand this is like a seminary right here this particular book so I'm going to look up soul in here and then I'm gonna look up a soul and spirit and peeper and I'm gonna I'm gonna try to get the contours of how the sation has gone before so give me a minute and I'll get back to you alright reporting back first from the doctor of the Evangelical Lutheran Church this nice discussion it mostly it's just a little paragraph here I by the work by the way learned a new thing here there was there's some heretics in the in the 17th century 1655 who taught a pre Adam ISM that means that there were people before Adam I'm so glad that's been called a heresy because of all these conversations I've been having with evolutionist lately but anyway later on it says talking about the material and physical form of the body and the soul of man it says down here the the spirit is thus not enumerated as a third essential part of man so this is going to be the the traditional thinking of the Lutheran's and it goes on to say this arguing against passages that are cited in favor of the idea that the Spirit is an essential part so that were body soul and spirit we're gonna have this argument from quintet who says in such passages Holy Scripture does not understand by spirit a spirit differing substantially from the human soul but the superior part of the soul and then this the two ideas of spirit in the Bible on the one hand the spirit is understood to be the essential part of man basically synonymous with the soul or on the other hand it's distinguished from the soul as though as the part of man which is employed for spiritual gifts and those of sanctification let me show this to you is that dude so we can pause it there and you can get a picture of what that looks like so that's a that's a beginning now no biblical references on this so that's just partially helpful so we go to two peepers dogmatix and we find in volume 1 page 47 this very helpful section here which I'll put on the screen and it gives you the language look at the top dichotomy and trichotomy so that's gonna be the two different views that's helpful to know that language so when we go later to dig into the stuff and search around we're gonna know what the different people call themselves the dichotomous and the trichotomous --tz-- and he says that the assumption that man consists of three is essentially different parts the soma or the body as the material part and the souq a soul as the lower animal principle of life which man has in common with the animals and the Ponemah the spirit as the higher or spiritual principle of life which distinguishes man from the animals is not sufficiently supported in Luke 1 and 1st Thessalonians 5 so people will go on and you can pause it and read it there but he's gonna go on to to take those two passages as the chief passages for those who argue for a trichotomy view to say here's why and he's gonna talk about why he doesn't hold to that on the next page I got to see if I can focus in there B he goes on to make the argument for the dichotomy and talk about the passages where the that's put forth you see Matthew 10 fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul and also Matthew 16 a what shall man give in exchange for a soul and then he's gonna note how those who are departed this life are called both spirits and souls when they've left their body behind in those two texts now look at this little line there at the bottom recent theologians are divided on the question nearly all the old Lutheran dog petitions teach dichotomy so it seems like a modern sort of thing to be able to fight so that's gonna give us the the language and a couple of the main scriptures to talk about now the next thing for us to do is to dig into the scriptures I'll show you what books we're gonna use for that well I want to start now collecting all the relevant biblical texts that have to do with what we're talking about I've got a list of I've got a list of six of them they're from from people but that's not gonna that's not gonna be enough so I want to dig into this and for this most people are gonna want to use a concordance I've got the Strong's exhaustive on tis an exact you want an exhaustive concordance that means it's got every word listed so you can track down all the various references this is going to be the old King James but it's fine because I want to show you something here when you when you look these up here let me let me flip this around when you look up these words in the in the concordance it's gonna give you a little code now here's how this works if you've never seen inside of the concordance this is really and you can find these at the thrift store these Strong's Concordance azar kind of everywhere and I think this is especially when you're digging into a particular topic this is going to be great and it'll have every listing of the words soul in the entire Bible in the English now again it's giving you the English so I'm going to show you how you got to check this out it this is all little Testament for the soul we're especially going to be interested in the New Testament for our conversation now and here's gonna be the ten twenty twenty-five listing listings of soul and so it gives you those are not it will kill the soul and it's going to give you the reference notice that the word itself is just indicated by the first letter if it's highlighted like that that's gonna mean that's the words of Jesus and then it gives you what's called the Strong's number over here now what you can actually do is flip to the back and you can just look up your Greek word five five nine zero by the number there it's it's really convenient I mean used to do this for you didn't know any Greek and it's not going to give you much help after that five five nine zero sue K that's our word for for soul that's there and but here's the reason why it's gonna be important we're gonna want to look and see that it's the same word being translated there now it could be that tsuke could be translated another way and not show up we can't in english we can't get there but we're gonna cross-reference that but we're gonna see here's all these listings of soul that are there and we're gonna we're gonna scan down these things to see which ones we think are important we're gonna do the same with spirit so here's spirit but remember spirit that's gonna be it's gonna refer to actually a lot of things the Holy Spirit the unclean spirits so look at this here's spirit in the New Testament starting here goes all the way down this column all the way down this column all the way down this column and then we have spirits as well the spirits are subject to the Prophet and so forth so we're gonna I'm going to scan these and I'm gonna try to find the those patient places where it's talking about the spirit of man so we can see what's going on there and I'm gonna make a note of those texts I'm gonna start I'm gonna start digging them up now I'm gonna do the same thing I'm gonna look at spirit and that's the word for one-five-zero that's Ponemah I know it's the same greek word that we were talking about before and so i'm gonna just see how consistent its translating Ponemah and i'm also gonna be looking for any times when they might have translated soul as spirit and it looks like it's pretty consistent look all the way down there that's that word Ponemah so I'm gonna so that's good so that's telling me that the that the King James is bringing the Greek over into the English with a great deal of consistency as far as I can tell with this tool so that's gonna be really helpful the other thing I'm gonna compare is I've got here the Greek concordance to the Greek New Testament and that's gonna let me look up these words in the Greek and this is a complete concordance so I'm gonna be able to compare the references and see if there was times where the English word a different English word was used to translate the Greek word that's the next step I'll show you guys this real quick this is so this is the good stuff look so I'm here on sue K and I'm noticing look Matthew chapter can you see that Matthew chapter 2 verse 20 is listed here but under soul it's not listed there's no Matthew 22 so there's no Matthew 2 so it turns out that there's gonna be another English word that the King James is gonna use this is gonna translate sookay into so what is it so you got to look it up and you see that it's the word life life so now I can look up life and look at what happens this is really I just want to show you this how this works so here's the word life in the New Testament and look there it is Matthew - they suck they sought to take the young child's life five five nines or so their suitcase becoming life but look at this two two two two it's gonna go there and then there's gonna be other words nine seven nine there's good to see look at all the difference so now when we're in the Gospel of John life is going to be this other words oh is what it is in the Greek and so there's a handful of words in Greek words that the Bible is going to bring across as life but we got to know that sometimes it's going to aha it's gonna be Seoul sometimes it's gonna translate that word sukiya Seoul and sometimes it's gonna translate this is a life here's the one of the most interesting places in in Matthew 16 this is great Jesus says for those who desire to keep their life will lose it but those who home where is it that's a news television resurrection what's the text here Matthew 16:25 and Jesus is going to say for if you desire your life to save you will lose it but if you lose your life and look at the word life there's the word sookay soul and then it says Jesus says for what does it gain you if you gain the whole world but then you lose your own soul so in English we have we have the word life and verse 25 and the words sold verse 26 but it's the same Greek word underneath now this is a this is just I got to turn this around or trying to answer a specific question but we don't want to miss the fact that as we're wandering down these fields we're just we're in a garden friends I mean we're rejoicing in this we just had Jesus the word for soul was right there in this beautiful verse where Jesus says all those who weary and are heavy laden come to me and I will give you rest and look at what it says here sorry in Bible pages I am gentle and lowly in heart this is Matthew 11:29 and you will find rest for your souls for your souls for my yoke is easy and my burden is light so I'm I'm digging in here you see what I'm doing I'm digging in I'm looking for the ways that the Bible uses soul and spirit and I'm especially looking for those texts where they're put together and they're put next to each other but I'm not gonna miss the fact that the Lord is as I'm reading these verses is just ladling gift upon gift upon gift all right back to work there's a verse here I got to hone in on it's Matthew chapter 22 where Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy 6 they asked what's the greatest commandment and he says you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart all your soul and all your now I know Jesus talks like this a couple of times and so I and in fact I know that in mark 12 there's a list of four things strength is included and he adds it to the thing so I'm gonna I'm gonna check that and I'm gonna check the cross references and I'm gonna compare the list of things that Jesus puts there when he when we have it in Matthew and in mark and in Luke to see if that's gonna give us a if that's gonna be a rabbit trail that we can chase down and find some helpful stuff well I tracked that down I don't think it's gonna lead anywhere but this is an interesting rabbit hole remember this the first commandment love the Lord your God with our heart soul mind and strength etc well it turns out in Deuteronomy love the Lord with all your heart soul and power okay boom in Matthew love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind Mark loved the Lord with all your heart soul mind and strength and then in Luke love the Lord with all your heart soul strength and mind any way no spirit on here so while this is helpful for the soul and for some of the various different things happening in the soul we're gonna we're gonna set this aside and keep tracking this down every verse of the scripture is inspired by god but but some are gonna be more important for and especially when we're doing these things and some are gonna be more connected to the topic than others so what we're looking for is is verses that are going to give us that are gonna use these words technically and especially we reverses we're soul and spirit are discussed together for example I came across the Luke one where where Mary says my soul magnifies the Lord my spirit rejoices in God my Savior so there you have soul and spirit used together and we got a we got to dig into that I'm on to another one as well first anytime I see first Corinthians 15 I'm gonna say I got a tune in there because that's remember Paul's great discussion of the resurrection and he he's developing a very precise and technical argument but look at look at this can you see this in the in the concordance first Corinthians 15 it's gonna use soul twice and it's going to give the two different very let's blurry come on I'm trying to show that YouTube theologians a thing and my cameras blurry okay so it's going to give two different definitions it's gonna use in two different ways and then look at this it's gonna be quoting Genesis 2:7 there so it's going to show the Hebrew and the and the in the Greek so so this is an incredible verse where it's gonna and and if you look at it in in the Greek you can see at least in this version I've got this nice I like this it's kind of the easy Greek I mean it's the same words but it's got an I think it's got a nicer font and bigger letters anyway one of the things it does is it gives you the the Septuagint quotations the Greek Old Testament quotations in the bold and so it says the first man became a the first man anthropos adam a Sukkah zeus on a living soul see it there that's the word we're looking at the last Adam became a Ponemah though a place soon now this is gonna take a little work with this that's that word for spirit and this is like a life making spirit so the so the first Adam became a living soul that's alive the last Adam became a life-giving spirit so there so that's a it's a technical verse and it has both spirit and soul in it it's contrasting Adam with Jesus and yeah and it's in the resurrection so that is going to be an important verse for us to grapple with in this whole question about soul and spirit and so forth anyway there's an update all right updating you guys and we've looked up all the examples of soul and all the examples of spirit where it's talking about the spirit of man in the New Testament and they all fit fairly nicely except for there's two verses that we're gonna want to wrestle with the first we had already on our list 1st Thessalonians 5:23 where it says with your whole spirit soul and body is that talking about three distinct things there's another verse that we're gonna want to wrestle with also that I found and it wasn't listed before that's Hebrews 4:12 and that's where it's it's talking about how the Word of God is able to divide even between the soul and the spirit now that's a it's actually a very intriguing and interesting text so what I'm gonna do now is I'm but before I turn to the internet to see the already bubbling controversy about these things I'm gonna look in my dictionaries on the word soul and spirit just to make sure I'm not missing anything and then I'm gonna I'm gonna pull a couple commentaries out on that Hebrews 4:12 verse and see if there's any excursus or discussion about what might be going on I'll check back in a few minutes Luther says somewhere that it's better to do theology when you're hungry but I just don't I just don't agree with him on that it's like one of the three things I don't agree with Lutheran and just looking at the portraits of him later in life I don't think he believed it either the Epicureans and Stoics think of the soul think the soul is a material like all being whether it be made up of especially small and mobile atoms or whether it be like Ponemah spirit fire steam of the finest material which flows through the coarser body and is more compressed in the head and the heart in the Centers of vital force and in the power of thought the pagans Oh apparently apparently the old Gnostics were big into the trichotomy idea the separation here made between Noah and Sookie implies an express threefold division of man and the body soul and an additional divinely given Ponemah spirit the Greek world we find the threefold division of the soul in Plato the latter triad of new suka soma that would be mind soul and body but this is not a true trichotomy and then we've got a bunch of references down to our friend Irenaeus against the heresies so we're on to it we're sniffing it out now at this point you say okay pastor I thought you were gonna show us how we can track this stuff down and how are we I got a circle around and figure that out for the video but yeah I can't be stopped napkin alright we're in here in Deus now against the heresies book one chapter six five so this has got to be Chapter five paragraph six look so he's talking about what the Gnostics believe that's what irony is getting after and he says this then is the kind of man they the Gnostics conceived of he has his animal soul Sookie from the Demiurge that's the creating devil his body soma from the earth is fleshly part from matter that's the same and then his spirit Ponemah spiritual man from the mother aah-ha moth that's you can google that and come up with all sorts of crazy one of these emanations of the divinity the mother of who knows the threefold in the chapter now this I think these chapter headed are added by shaft who translated to the threefold kind of man feigned by the heretics good works needless for them though necessary to others they're abandoned morals this is really actually quite interesting so the the Gnostics are then gonna say that the animal man which is represented by the church needs to do good works to be saved but they don't need to be do good works because they are perfectly holy and incorruptible so just again we're just getting a flavor of this stuff because it's fun this being three kinds of substances they declare of all that is material which they also describe as being on the left hand they must have necessity perish in as much as it is incapable of receiving any a flatus of in corruption who knows what that is that'd be something to track down as to every animal existence which they also denominator on the right hand they hold that in as much as it is a mean between the spiritual and the material it passes to the side whoa which inclination draws it the spiritual substance again they describes it having been sent forth for this end and here being united with that which is it animal it might assume shape the two elements being simultaneous is subjected to the same discipline if the interesting stuff here animal men that's like you and me the knot enlighted Gnostics are instructed in animal things such men namely as they're established by their works and by a mere faith which they have not perfect knowledge we of the church they say or of these persons wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us for that otherwise it is impossible that we should be saved but as to themselves they hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved not by means of conduct but because they are spiritual by nature this is a on account of which they've received anyway this is very interesting for this reason and that is that we see the the Gnostics holding forth the try part I dia of humanity this is getting more interesting all the time let me show you this here's clinic's commentary on Hebrews and I'm digging into this Hebrews 4:12 verse how this the Word of God pierces or divides between soul and spirit let me show you what let me show you what climbing says about this you got got it there it says like the Hebrew equivalent nephesh the Greek noun sook a soul designates the life breath of a living breathing person here and in 1213 it also has is more than that in Hebrews it is a person as a living spiritual being who takes refuge in God requires pastoral care through prayer and is delivered from destruction by Jesus for eternal safekeeping at death in contrast with that Ponemah spirit is the term for the divine life power that animates the soul of a living person with the life that comes from God 12 9 those who are enlivened by the I have the next page Holy Spirit are called spirits whether they be people living on earth the saints in heaven or angels etc etc so there's climbing and then I was not expecting this in the old Lenski Wow Lenski is talking about he talks about this let me show you this paragraph this is really something let's see it there boom the statement is striking even in Scripture piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit of both joints and marrow we should know he's appalled the sookay as distinguished from the Ponemah is the life which the spirit gives to the body as long as the two are connected hence the souq a soul is the seat of thoughts emotions feelings desires Volition's and actions pertaining to our earthly and bodily existence the Ponemah which is the source of the sookay is the immaterial part of our being that was created and breathed into us by the breath of God and is therefore the real seat of his gracious operations in regenerating and renewing us now look at this next paragraph in the unregenerate the psyche rules and the Ponemah is enslaved in the regenerate this is reversed I got to show you the next pager there it is look at that the Ponemah is enthroned thus we are no longer su kiosks ruled over by our earthly animated sensual nature but Panama Panama Tico's spiritual ruled also in bodily and in bodily life by the spirit piercing up to or as far as the division of the psyche but the Ponemah is therefore not a thundering of the soul and of the spirit by the word of God the word never does such a thing even also as the soul that animates our bodies in the spirit are not two entities which something may cut apart so Lenski I and I had never seen this before Lyn skis talking about the the soul is that kind of that's our that's our stuff that's our it's kind of our invisible humanity and this and the Spirit is that which gives life to it and he says in the unbeliever the soul rules in the spirit is enslaved but in the believer that it goes the opposite way and the spirit rules in the souls enslaved which is which is really something to think about I got to fight some more on that as far as I can tell I've exhausted my resources of books so now I'm getting ready to venture into the wild wild world of the internet now I got the language and I've got the major biblical passages it seems like the majority Christian view is a dichotomous view that is that we are body and soul and that spirit used a variety of ways in the Bible when used with the soul is a way of describing the part of our elves which receives life and good gifts from the spirit and the soul is gonna be when used with the spirit that part which is particularly interacting with our human body but there the two are used synonymously it's important though to note that the body soul distinction and the flesh spirit distinction are different distinctions and and we're gonna talk about that in a little bit but I'm gonna go in and dig in to see what the controversies are out there who's gonna hold to the trichotomous view and how they're gonna argue it so I can make sure I got a full kind of rounded view of the picture here all right the online searching I think indicates that we found everything that we needed to find and that the - let's summarize this and then I want to draw you guys a picture to kind of fill it in there's a there's two basic views of our Constitution as human beings a dichotomous idea that we our body and soul body and spirit or a trichotomous idea that we are body soul and spirit and there's a distinction to be made an important distinction to be made between the soul and the spirit the trichotomous view was famous in the old world Plato and the Gnostics and oddly enough with some of the charismatic Christians although I looked in my systematic Pentecostal dogmatic there and it put forth the arguments for both the dichotomous and the trichotomous view and said doesn't matter but interestingly enough there's some danger in the trichotomous view now the the scriptures for the trichotomous view does that Tennessean trichotomous are mostly first Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 both of which are very interesting texts and texts that we should pay close attention to but but not text that I think can conclusively say we got to think this way about our own humanity where your body soul and spirit although maybe we can make a distinction between soul and spirit but barely just in fact that's maybe the point that Hebrews or twelve is making that only the Word of God can see the difference between the two and and we can't but I want to draw a picture for you this is my attempt now to summarize and to simplify so let's take a look one of the difficulties we will face in this conversation is that the Bible will use different words in different ways referring to different things in different times so so here's the basic idea we are body and soul or body and spirit we have a physical part and we have a spiritual part or an incorporeal a non bodily part and and this is the basic distinction the basic thing that the Bible teaches about who we are now sometimes the Bible will use the word soul referring to the whole being the for 2,000 souls or 3,000 souls were baptized on Pentecost or it'll use this it'll use the word soul as an equivalent for life Jesus says the Good Shepherd gives down it gives up his soul for the sheep but this is basically the idea that we have soul or spirit and that again the Bible will use spirit for a different a bunch of different things the Spirit of the Lord the unclean spirits but this is referring to that non corporal or non bodily part of our life now we mentioned before that that that the death is the separation of the soul from the body or the separation of the spirit from the body and both those who have departed this life are called souls and spirits in the scripture so that is gonna confirm that sort of thing now there's a couple of Bible passages that would like to make a distinction between the soul and the spirit and we've talked about those already we have first Thessalonians chapter 5 verse 23 which says body soul and spirit and then we have Hebrews 4 verse 12 which talks about the Word of God probably meaning Jesus separating or dividing or piercing the soul and the spirit saying that there's a distinction between these two and if we were to make a between these two it'd be very slight but the soul is maybe the immaterial life as it relates to the body and the spirit is that immaterial life as it relates to God now let's be very careful in saying that these are the sort of tendencies that we see in this sort of thing but Linsky made this very profound point that that the that the soul of the unbeliever is in charge of the spirit and the spirit is enslaved whereas for the Christian the spirit isn't in fact ruling and the soul is under the governance of the Spirit and what begins to what begins to show itself to us is that we have a distinction like this of body and soul and then we have a distinction that runs through the middle of spirit and flesh and this is this is how to keep I think this in mind and to let it be helpful because Paul for example in Romans chapter 8 oh he loves it in Romans chapter 8 and in a number of other places let me see my notes here almost flesh spear look at Galatians also Galatians five verse four and following that Paul will say those who are driven by the spirit versus those who are driven by the flesh and the spirit and the flesh are distinct from body and soul the spirit is that which relates to God and the flesh is that which it relates to sin and here's the important point the Gnostics the Gnostics want to make the distinction between body and soul the same as this distinction between flesh and spirit so that our body is the sinful part of us and the soul is the spiritual part of us but the Bible resists that you sin in your body as well as in your soul in fact the worst sins that you commit are sins of the soul idolatry and and and unbelief and all that sort of thing whereas you in fact serve God not only in your soul and your spirit but even with your body offer your body as a living sacrifice in fact this is where that verse from first viens comes in is that you it says that according to the resurrection you have a spiritual body that your very body will be raised holy on the last day so the danger in the trichotomous view is letting this distinction start to break down so we are body and soul we are flesh and spirit and on the last day our flesh is left behind and we our body and soul together in in in the perfect life that Jesus has to give to us incorruptible and holy look at this April the 10th Colorado blizzard warning Carl I hope that's helpful I hope it's helpful to see the biblical doctrine of man I hope it's also helpful to see the theological process and work trying to how we investigate these things you guys say now look you were looking into the Greek and all these other stuff I don't have a library like this but you can get this one right here I'm gonna put the link below you guys should all have that one PDF so you can search it and set you off in the in the right direction and and thanks for asking the question thanks for being YouTube theologians send more questions if you got em we'll talk to you soon God's peace be with you [Music]

Channel: Bryan Wolfmueller

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Id: XXcSZuEojTI

Length: 36min 23sec (2183 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 10 2019