Biblical theology, and preaching Paul's letters, with Tom Schreiner

it's good to be here again at the macarthur center for expository preaching dr thomas schreiner the james harrison buchanan professor of new testament interpretation at the southern baptist theological seminary he's out here teaching in our doctor of ministry program and we're grateful for your time with our students and to take a little time to help the macarthur center in its work on encouraging and promoting expository preaching so thank you again for being with us oh it's great to be here well what i'd like to do now is is hone in a bit on your expertise as a new testament scholar and the work you've done in theology as well and think about how that relates to those who you're often ministering to which is pastors in their studies so let's begin by talking about biblical theology some of our audience that may be a popular buzz word for them uh some may be newer to biblical theology maybe more familiar with a concept of systematic theology talk about how biblical theology let's do what biblical theology is in your understanding and how it's a benefit to an expositor yeah i i think the best way in a short compass to talk about biblical theology is to talk about the story of the bible there there's a story there's a narrative there's a plot and and biblical theology in one sense is not difficult what's that story we're we're trying to see what is the unfolding story as as we read the bible what why is that helpful it's it's helpful because wherever you're preaching where are we in the story right we're not just to give an example we're not on leviticus so if you're preaching leviticus you can't you can't preach well you shouldn't preach i should say that we ought to offer sacrifices right it's part of the story that atonement is needed human beings are sinners that's part of the story but we have to look at the whole story and the sacrifices for sin come obviously in the sacrifice of christ so biblical theology helps it's not absolutely separated from systematic theology but it helps us see how the whole story fits together and we always ought to be thinking where are we another way to put it is where are we in terms of the covenants are we are we in in the story line are you in the old covenant with moses the davidic covenant with david or are we in the new covenant with christ that is where you're reading in the bible obviously as believers we live in the new covenant but we always have to take into account where we are in the story when we're preaching and that is absolutely vital it sounds simple but a lot of people don't do it sure in some way it's context yes but a larger context exactly and you're asking the preacher to be mindful of not only where this is in god's unfolding story but where his audience is as well right right so you know i mean if i could just give an example jesus talks about in matthew 5 if your brother or sister is offended with you uh reconcile with them before you bring your gift to the altar but jesus was speaking in a particular context we don't have altars today jesus was speaking in a time in which there was a temple so that's that's pretty easy to understand but we what we recognize jesus ministered in a particular time in redemptive history where israel still lived under the old covenant and his illustrations and stories and applications fit with that particular story so there's obvious benefit to the preacher and to the interpreter in thinking about how this fits in god's big story are there concerns you have with biblical theology and the preacher either maybe in a case like an nt right kind of a case where the story is angled a little differently than you would you would put it or can someone put too much emphasis on that the overarching story and miss what's happening in the text yeah i i think that's a absolutely true two concerns one even wright says this about himself he's a big thinker which is a plus but the danger is that that overarching story you may impose it upon the text and and i and i think the second concern is similar the the story may so dominate one's thinking that the particulars of the texts get squelched as well so that you know some people who preach they'll say redemptive historically they actually don't believe in applying the text they they just think it's enough to tell the story of what god has done in christ and at least i don't think that's that's a good way to preach i i think we we have to tell the story but in accord with what the text is saying and apply it yeah as part of that the interpretation that comes along with biblical theology there's a lot of different angles in that story a lot of different emphases that you can make where a text will keep you in line with what it is saying rather than imposing that in exactly yeah the text the text is finally our authority and text i i like to say texts are stubborn things you know they're they they sit there and all their beauty and they they remind us don't ignore me and uh here's what i'm saying and and we can we all fall short of that sometimes and so when we prioritize the text uh that can be a safeguard in employing biblical theology and preaching yes yes you we really need both yeah because you could look very carefully at a text in the old testament but if you're not thinking of redemptive history if you're not thinking of biblical theology you could apply that in really terrible ways good let's think about some of these stubborn texts specifically some that you have worked on for so much of your career and we're grateful for that work let's start with the book of romans how about some help for a preacher who's considering tackling romans what would your concerns be that he would have sorted before he dives in what do you think about when you think about advice for a man about to start an exposition of the gospel of god well it helps of course it it it helps already to have some kind of theology going on in your in your heart and mind you you're already developed to some extent theologically i think that's true of every book sure you're not you're not coming to any book of the new testament or the old testament without context but i i would say one of the dangers of romans is for people to think this is this is the whole of pulse theology i i think that's clearly not true we have we have to remember that romans is probably the most complete exposition of police theology but don't don't think it's the whole it's it's absolutely fundamental but it's not the whole and then recognize do recognize that the issues that come up in romans have to do especially with jews and gentiles so it's it's the the law and and and sin you know the law plays such a huge role in justification the the the role of israel the role of unclean foods so if we think more cosmically about romans there were there were jewish and gentile divisions i think in rome so i think it's helpful to think paul wrote this for a practical pastoral reason to explain his theology not all of it but a lot of it to to unify jews and gentiles in rome he wants the church to be harmonized so when we think of romans we ought to think this book is practical this book was meant to bring unity to believers and thirdly i think he wanted the roman churches to support his mission to spain but they wouldn't support his mission to spain if they weren't with him theologically so the you know i i think it's helpful to think romans is pastoral romans is missional romans is theological all three very helpful let's do the same thing with first corinthians maybe the book you've spent the most time on it sounds like in your teaching career and i think you have for my understanding the entire new testament memorized but you apparently have a a good grasp of first corinthians through all these years do the same thing with first corinthians help a guy who's starting out there's things that he needs to have sorted as he approaches the text what are you concerned about with first corinthians yeah i i think it's helpful to think of first corinthians paul's the paul's a pastor pastor missionary theologian and it's a great book it's a kind of a case study book almost here's all these problems in the churches divisions incest sexual sin uh food offered idols spiritual gifts so i think it's helpful for us to think what's paul the pastor doing how does he how does he tackle those problems what's his what's his theology what's his world view and then that can inform us what do i do when there's divisions how do i handle church discipline sexual sin and there's a depth and profundity which hopefully feeds into us so that we when we face pastoral problems that we don't just say to people stop it don't do that don't be divided don't commit incest of course that's true but that's not that's not helpful right it's like counseling a person they come into you for counseling if they're struggling with sin you we can say stop it and at some point we do need to say that but it's it's richer and deeper than that there's a theological foundation so we want to see that theological foundation that paul builds to get to the practical application that's what that's what we do every week when we preach so in a way we see paul as the preacher in this book he lays out his theology and then he applies it so what a great model for us very helpful let's get into one that's uh trickiest of all potentially let's talk about hebrews i'm grateful for your commentary in hebrews my copy has been almost completely chewed up by me over the years because it's not an easy book to interpret talk about how to approach preaching the book of hebrews what should a man have in his mind as he approaches it big picture and then some some help that you'd have for him yeah yeah hebrews is tough one other thing i just taught hebrews last semester and i said to the students one of the things that makes hebrews tough is the readers are tempted to go back to the sacrificial system how many of you have ever faced a situation where someone was tempted to do that never it's impossible there's not even a sacrificial system out there sodium from the outside it almost seems disconnected from our real lives so i think it's helpful to think of hebrews this way first chapter 13 verse 21 22 it's a sermon you know we tend to think of oh hebrews it's just deep theology and it is but it's a sermon it's he's he's preaching to these people and what's the main point of the sermon i would argue the main point of the sermon comes in the warning passages don't fall away here's another way to think of hebrews so i want people to see the big picture five warning passages so two one through four three seven through four 13 5 11 through 6 12 10 26 through 31 i mean some people would divide that differently 12 25 through 29 five times he circles back to the warnings that's what he's about so he does theology and then he hits him with the warning right theology and he hits them with a warning boom boom boom boom so i like to think the warnings are like a kaleidoscope you know you shake it but it's it's the same message it's just different angles so when we read those warning passages we ought not to play him off against each other he's doing the same thing every time like this is a sermon with one main point don't fall away why do i say that because people say oh hebrews is so hard it's so complex yes there are hard things in it but let's remember the main message is clear then i want to say about the theology actually the theology is clear too and he actually does the same thing what is the theology of the book jesus is better notice that word better in the book jesus is better than the angels chapters one and two who mediate the mosaic law chapters three and four jesus is better than moses and joshua chapters five through 10 jesus is the better priest he's he's better than the aaronic priest he's the better melchizedekian priest so those are those are big big categories right jesus is better than angels jesus is better than moses and joshua jesus is better than the levitical aaronic priesthood because of that don't fall away don't go back two other things i want to say just when we get to chapter 7 and 10 that's really heavy theology so how can we think of a big picture simply and i would say chapter 7 he's the better priest chapter eight better covenant chapters nine and ten better sacrifice so again i want i want people to think what what's going on in this book as a whole better priest better covenant better sacrifice therefore don't fall away okay couple more things i want to say what is chapter 11 doing in that book the hall of faith the hall of faith that's another way of saying don't fall away so it all integrates together there's a simplicity in the book what does it mean not to fall away it means you trust god that's what it means you put your faith in him so he's not really doing something different in that chapter so think of him as a preacher he's in a way he's one maybe the clearest preacher in the new testament i mean all god's word is clear so i don't want to press that too far but what you're saying is that hebrews if it is the earliest extant christian sermon that we have it teaches us something about preaching it does it's remarkable it's deeply theological but in in one way it's so clear it's just we're distant we don't think in terms of tabernacle temple sacrifice one other practical application you know we're not tempted to go back to you know sacrifices but i think the readers barnabas linder says this in his book in hebrews the reader why did they want to go back to these sacrifices i think they had a problem with guilt and hebrews really emphasizes our our sins are washed away you're clean your conscience is cleansed you can boldly enter god's presence i mean such a huge problem in all of our lives is the guilt of what we've done so hebrews is a great book for preaching and and for counseling you know so it was we we've committed grievous sins and hebrews says you're clean yeah you're freezing and i know you're you're gonna like this but so many approach hebrews wanting to focus on how this can reconcile with their understanding of biblical perseverance and try to solve a theological problem by isolating chapter 6 and chapter 10. your view of hebrews is that god intends to use warning passages if i'm summarizing it accurately as a means of persevering his people talk about how that should help a preacher see what his responsibility is as his people aren't thinking of returning to a sacrificial system but could be looking over their shoulder considering a former manner of life or do consider the the difficulty of dealing with their guilt how do we preach like whoever that preacher was yeah yeah it's so so practical right we're not we're not tempted to return to judaism but we may we may want to go back to our secular life or some other ideology or some other religion i mean we think of people who come out of islam or whatever you come out of so hebrews is so practical because the author is saying don't go back there and the warnings as you said the warnings are the means god uses to keep us so it's right if if this if this water i had here were poison and i say don't drink it that's the sort of thing hebrews is doing the hebrews is saying don't drink the poison don't go back recognize recognize this will destroy you here's a simple illustration i use a couple years ago i stood above the grand canyon and i thought to myself it'd be fun to jump strange thought but you know a warning went up in my head it'll kill you yeah it would be fun to jump for a little while less fun to land exactly exactly so that's kind of what horny warning the hebrews is doing right [Music] don't jump it'll it'll destroy you so you see that pastoral heart you're really forgiven in christ don't forsake what jeremiah says right the fountain of living water for broken cisterns that hold no water that's that's what hebrews is about okay that's helpful so one of the things you've encouraged us in class is to be thinking about preaching larger sections and i think what you just did in those three books is show us that it's important to hang on to the large themes that are there the theology of the book that's probably one of the things that will help you grab onto bigger sections talk a little bit about that concern maybe somebody getting cut in a worm's eye view of a text rather than making sure that they're grabbing the whole piece give advice about pericopes and sections and preaching bigger chunks smaller chunks what's your what's your thoughts yeah yeah i think it's been a tradition and evangelicalism some of the greatest preachers spend five ten years on a particular book we have to remember they're excellent preachers and then they're you the exception not and i don't think that's a pattern most of us should follow i think we we need to preach bigger chunks for for a couple of reasons one people lose track yeah what's what's this book about uh it's it's hard to follow a line of thought in a book if you're in it for five or ten years secondly so many people in our churches we need to recognize the only teaching they hear sunday morning so if you spend 10 years in romans what a great book but there's a lot of the rest of the bible that they they don't hear so i recommend preaching bigger chunks there's time to do smaller portions and i actually recommend not as a rigid world but do a new testament book then an old testament book when you do an old testament book do it faster so if i were to preach hebrews which i didn't do actually i was going to do it near the end but i didn't get to it but i thought about it i'd probably preach chapters one through seven is one sermon chapters eight through ten is the second maybe 11 through 15 is the third and then maybe i take four or five sermons for the rest of the book because sometimes we feel like well what i do with romans is what i got to do with leviticus but that's i don't think that's true and i think the thought of spending 38 weeks in leviticus scares us off yeah we think wow that's not going to work well well we ought to be more creative and i think faithful to say no i don't have to spend the same amount of time in leviticus than i do in romans the books are different and and that would free us up to say yeah we can we can do numbers and uh we can do isaiah isaiah is a deep rich book but you could be in isaiah for 30 years sure you don't want to do that right yeah no i think it's helpful we tell the guys in seminary you know dr macarthur has he's preached five sermons on the word paul before so or maybe eight and so i just like to hopefully remind them you're no macarthur so i i think that's what we're saying there's there's a place for both don't get trapped into a tiny kind of exposition stuck here that may not be what your giftedness is and don't miss the larger forest i think so i mean john piper's done this with romans martin lloyd jones but they are not the model for all of us in everything they did it's helpful as great as they are absolutely let's talk about a little bit more about preaching uh when you think about your the worst sermons you've ever heard your pet peeves about preaching what are you most concerned about the top things that come to your mind when you think the worst sermons i've ever heard yeah my top concern is obviously the person didn't study the text we we all have different gifts in terms of presentation and i i understand that we're all at different places they're in terms of giftedness but if a person comes in the text to the to the text and hasn't studied it and they haven't prepared well that that's annoying and i honestly i think it's dishonoring the god unless they have a great reason and perhaps sometimes there's a great reason some crisis in their family or something but typically there's not a good reason for for not knowing what the text means so that that is clearly the most annoying thing secondly the the second biggest problem is just explaining the text without applying it just doing a commentary data dump yeah yeah i mean i you know i love the bible but i do go hear sermons where i already know what's there and i hear sermons and i think i need the bible applied to my life just like everybody else and i think well i already knew everything that was said there i need to be reminded of that but what does it mean to me yeah now we people have various gifts in terms of application but at least try to apply it and sometimes people don't apply it at all they think it's sufficient simply to explain what the text says i don't think that's a good model of preaching application is necessary and it isn't necessary exhortation it's the hardest part it's the hardest part for me yeah and i i recognize it's a weakness i have and i i struggle but at least at least i try to apply it so those are your top concerns the worst sermons you've ever heard are data dumps that have no application or they're not honoring the text what about the best sermons you hear what's what do you love in what do you love about preaching uh what sets your heart on fire what what's your great encouragement when you think about preaching what what makes a sermon great yeah it's almost it's really the reverse one the the you know show me wonders things from your law the psalmist says and you see it the preacher the preacher different personalities quiet personalities extroverts you see when they preach they're excited about the text and they've learned from the text it's clear it comes out and uh and you learn even things you've known before it strikes you in a new and fresh way and they apply it in powerful ways so i'm convicted or i'm encouraged or challenged and and your you sense god's speaking the holy spirit's speaking not just to me but everybody in this room there's a sense of what's going on and that's a great experience uh when you're preaching and uh when you're when you're listening uh you know i would say as a preacher just you know there are times i've gone into the pulpit and thought this sermon's gonna be amazing i feel like i'm depending on god this is gonna be amazing and i can step out and think i that didn't go well i don't know what happened i thought it was going to be so great but and then and then i've had the opposite opposite experience i go in the pool but maybe i pray harder and i say this it's going to be awful this was not good and suddenly the lord shows up so there's that sovereignty of god in these and when we preach isn't there where there are times where he takes over and is it's such a good reminder our our work is pretty feeble in one way i i always feel i mean how what how can i do justice to this text especially you know you do psalm 23 i'm like what can i say about psalm 23 it's been it's such a great text who is adequate for these things yes and the power's there it's in the spirit of god moving through the word of god to the people of god and that's where we we see that effect yeah and that's that's so helpful because i think i think as preachers we begin to think somehow i can do this sure and i think god god reminds us no the power's not in ourselves the power's in his word yeah we want to communicate as best we can we want to be clear and precise but we ultimately know that the work and the results are up to the working of his spirit yeah dr schreiner thank you so much for your time for your ministry it's been a benefit to to me personally to so many of us thanks for being with us at the macarthur center and at the masters seminary we're really grateful for your your ministry to us

Channel: The Master's Seminary

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Keywords: The Master's Seminary, John MacArthur, Expository Preaching, Inerrancy, Biblical Teaching, TMS, Bible, Truth, Scripture, Pastor, Chapel

Id: jA_7jn_8mUw

Length: 27min 33sec (1653 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 15 2021