Biblical Anthropology Panel | Tom Ascol, Voddie Baucham, Bradley Pierce, Paul Washer, Joel Beeke

well I'd like to invite our panelists to come on up here these are our speakers over the past day and the speakers that will be speaking throughout the rest of the conference so don't be shy you guys come on up give him a hand [Applause] I would remind you that we are going to have another panel discussion later today and the Q a discussion uh tomorrow morning and again if you want to ask questions you can send those questions in to us 888-525 1689 that's right that's the number that you can send those questions into all right well Brothers um welcome thank you for doing this and having this discussion with us this is a panel discussion on biblical anthropology and so the first question that I want to ask you just to get us started off with and this can be for anyone what is biblical anthropology as our minds are tired and we're trying to make sense of big words what is it it's the biblical doctrine of man the biblical doctrine of man and it would be opposed to other doctrines of man yeah or the biblical doctrine of God or okay it's just a category so anthropology is a doctor it's what the Bible teaches about man because everybody has opinions about these subjects people have opinions about human uh human beings the Bible defines what is human the Bible defines what constitutes humanity and as we've heard last night or yesterday that God made man in his own image and so what the scripture teaches about Humanity constitutes biblical anthropology okay um I think that sets us up well for kind of where I want to go in this discussion you know there's a great difference between uh the way that man understands himself to be and how God understands man to be and Paul you said last night you you referenced the fact that you know previously uh natural man was blinded to spiritual truths but at least had some understanding of natural truths it seems that today in our current culture natural man is blinded to spiritual truths but also can't see natural truths as well and so maybe this is for all of you gentlemen paint a picture for where we're at culturally the distinction between how God views man and how he reveals the way that he sees us in the word and the way that our culture understands man and then how do we address those differences effectively I believe that hello okay um when we study history as far back as what some would say 5th Century BC uh the beginning philosophy with thales and others as it progresses we can see that even in natural man there is some use of reason and that is Grace and we can see that all through um in in many many different societies and cultures we can see the restraining and helping grace of God because let's just face it if God were to pull back all restraint from man you know this our society the world itself would not even last but a few hours but God restrains the evil of man and also promotes reason even among the natural man so that he can carry out a work of Salvation a work of redemption through his son Jesus Christ so there comes times though where um man has violated so much the gospel the person of Christ that judgment comes upon a culture but also you have to understand something when when when God did what he did at Babel it was judgment but it was also a work of Grace it separated Nations and that's very very important why um if if Mike can't if my finger has cancer I can cut off my finger and save the rest of my body when there are nation states and there's enough separation between them sometimes moral contamination a moral infirmity can be isolated and judged the problem is is when all the nations come together and there's there they stand as a United whole and they stand against God then there's no member to cut off in order to save the whole and in some ways that's where we're headed if we're not already there the pollution that comes out of Hollywood this morning will be in Singapore or even the darkest Jungle of Peru or Asia by the evening and so we're seeing something that maybe we've not seen since Babel and and that that means that we don't give up it means that we work even harder yeah it makes one long for the day when the Nations will be inherited by Yahweh when there are nations yet all of them belong to the Lord culturally speaking you know understanding where we are even just specifically in the U.S what are some of the major distinctions that the rest of you Brothers see between the way that that the culture understands man to be and what what God understands man to be I think the the most significant aspect of that difference is the question of creation there is a world of difference between someone who believes that there is a God and that man was created by God and man was created for God and someone who believes that man is just the result of a cosmic accident there are significant implications there and I think many of the things that we see many of the things that we disagree on many of the things that we're you know at war with our culture about really come down to that is there a God is that why we're here does that give us our purpose if it does there are implications for every area and aspect of life yeah I might also just to add a personal note I've I've been engaging in Airplane evangelism I call it for the last 30 some years I have a commitment between God and me that I'll speak to every person I sit next to it's getting harder today with people putting earplugs in but uh I've noticed a tremendous difference from 30 years ago 20 30 years ago if I flew over Europe I discovered the person sitting next to me knows next to nothing about Christianity already then but in America sitting next to me almost always had you know somewhat of a God-fearing grandmother or father or something and knew the Bible and said he believed in God very different I mean you fly above Europe and the young man sit next to me and says you really believe in God I I can't believe that you believe in God six percent of Europeans go to church today America is still close to 50. but what I've noticed in the last 10 years is that when it comes to evangelizing Americans on the plane they have a little bit of background knowledge but but very very little it's fading fast we're just we're just like one generation behind Europe and so we we've got a a huge problem um as I I loved what Paul Washer said last night it's not just that the Judgment of God is coming it's here and we have to just pray that God ought to just sheer unmitigated Grace my common prayer lately has been Lord send a Great Awakening to America greater than the original Great Awakening because we we're in more desperate need than ever ever before and Dr beaky you've been addressing this idea of man human nature in its four-fold state kind of following Augustine and following Thomas Boston and our own confession of Faith the 1689 confession addresses this most specifically in chapter nine when it speaks of the Free Will it speaks of man and his will as it is in his state of Innocence man in his will and his state of sin and his state of grace and the state of glorification state of glory and what it's doing is it's showing that the will of mankind that faculty changes depending upon the state that the human nature is in and you spoke this morning about man being justified and being brought into that State of Grace so thinking of of man in a state of sin and how that affects all the faculties of a person and all the faculties of the human nature um is there anything good that a man in a state of sin can do what is the man in the state of saying capable of doing yeah it's a great a great question so picture in your mind with me a whiteboard and in the middle of the white board a line from top to bottom and then picture the left side of that white board and put an X on the white board about six feet away from the line far from the line now on the right side of the or the other side of the white board just put true good and then on the left side put evil so the natural man can never do never cross that line because he's never Living For the Glory of God but six feet away maybe he's he's robbing a bank or he's murdering somebody or he's doing something very very evil and God's common Grace that Paul was just talking about is not restraining him of course that's evil but what if he donates a million dollars to a hospital I mean unconverted people do that what then is that a good deed well it's good in the eyes of men it can do a lot of good but in God's eyes you'll see he sees the heart so that little X of giving a million dollars may be closer to the line but it's still on the evil side because he's not doing it out of the right motivation for the glory of God so the point is I was trying to say earlier uh this morning is that whenever you don't do something out of the love for the glory of God and of true love for your neighbor you are sinning no matter how good it looks in the eyes of men so that's why Spurgeon called this whole issue of debate about the Free Will Free Will yet bound rebound to the wrong side of of of the Whiteboard but it doesn't mean that you don't do some common good outwardly in in the eyes of man so think of it this way an unconverted person is never committing one act of genuine spiritual good in the eyes of a holy almighty God so his his will is bound but doesn't mean he doesn't have choices sometimes we think Free Will means well God's decreed everything true you have no choice you had a choice of whether to come here this morning or not you have a choice when to eat lunch today you have a choice to come to this conference whether you're saved or unsaved so we have all kinds of choices our we have a free will that way but it's bound because we can never do good apart from the saving grace of God brother I when I'm explaining this to a lost person who brings up that question every once in a while I say it's not a really a question of Free Will everyone's always talking about free will it's not a question of free will it's a question of Goodwill and that will to be good has to be tied to a nature that is good and what is the thing the thing does according to what it is and another thing that I'd like to point out when when someone talks about well I know this atheist over here who mows the elderly neighbor's yard you know charges her battery when it's cold what about what about him and for shock value I'll say oh he will for him is reserved at the deepest place in hell and and they go how can you say that I said because the only way he can do those things and not walk over to her the neighbor's house and and murder her with an ax is the grace of God he is boasting about things that he is doing saying it's in his own power when in fact it is the grace of the very God he's denying he's taking credit for what God is doing even in his life and that's very important to understand if it wasn't for the grace of God we would all make Hitler look like a choir boy again God restrains the evil of man so that he can carry out a work of redemption for his son you know the other side of that too I think is important that in Christ we can do good works that are acceptable to God even though they are still tainted with sin and so sometimes Christians can get this the side of depravity and recognizing everything that a wicked person does no matter how good is not righteous and think well I can't do anything good either well no we're created for good works and what makes our good works good and acceptable to God is that they're in accordance with his Revelation and they're in Christ and God accepts them from us in Christ yeah it's uh being can't act in contradiction to its own nature you know you're you have a sin nature you have to act according to that you've been saved by grace you're in a state of grace you can act according to that even God himself acts according to his own nature um so then that brings up a question in my own mind when we see people who are in a state of sin doing things that we would say yes that is a good thing or that is a good Discovery or they're saying a true thing do Christians have an obligated to an obligation to recognize that as good and praise it do we have an obligation to be indifferent towards it do we have an obligation to condemn it because it's not done out of the right motives um I think we have an obligation to praise those things and I think that you goes back to what what Paul just said you know we recognize that that is the grace of God right and we want to acknowledge the grace of God in restraining sin and in leading even Fallen men um to to do things like that so you know I do I do think that we need to recognize that praise God for that um help people understand that um while at the same time calling people to repentance and faith and calling them to understand the fact that you know however good that looks to us it it doesn't make it to the other side of the line another thing I think is very important is God is he's he doesn't just demonstrate Grace he is gracious he doesn't just show kindness he is kind and we are to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect one of the things that preachers want to make sure that they do is spend time with those who are not Christians so that they can remember to be gracious and to be kind and to pass over even a multitude of sins it is our it is the kindness of God that brings men to repentance so if I'm you know I have a a waitress let's say that's just fully tatted up and and and everything else and boisterous and everything I'm going to engage her in a conversation as though she were my daughter I'm going to love her I'm going to talk to her another thing about evangelism is that you know I sometimes Tell Young preachers what what think what where do you think you have the right to talk that way to someone you need to earn that right serve them love them bless them pray for them be gracious and I think that's very very important that when we're we have to talk about these realities they're horrific realities but never forget these are people they were made by God and something of the Imago day Still Remains within them and it's that kindness that we need to show if I see someone playing a guitar wildly I'm not going to walk up to them and say your guitar playing is sinful and leads to lustful thoughts even though it may I'm going to say my you play that guitar well and I'm going to talk to them as a human being and I'm going to love them and be gracious to them very important and those of us who believe in doctrine of radical depravity we need to be very very careful that we do not see people just through that lens that that's why hokuma's book on the image of God that that book really rebuked me because he talks about the Beauty and the glory of of this creation called man and we need to hold to that and honor that yeah Kelvin sheds a lot of light for me on this he has this concept that he calls a complexial oppositorum which is the complexity of opposites so that's the world we live in also with our redeemed nature even within ourselves we have the old nature and the new nature and Kelvin says when it comes to the ungodly as well so you have this you have this complexity where this world is like a graveyard he said it's like a Sepulcher there's just so much sin this it's just overwhelming and we're just grieved at the sin everywhere sin in US sin and the ungodly sin everywhere it's a it's a terrible world to live in because of sin and it offends God on the other side of the Ledger we as Christians we wow if we're a true Christian I want to use my car for the glory of God I want I want to love my wife for the glory of God I want to love my children so everything is really really positive in this world because I'm living for Christ and for his sake now what do you do with the unconverted person who's doing some of this outward good well just like just what was said here I think is you see the complexity of opposites also in that individual and even though you can't look into his heart and see the evil that still abides when they do something that seems to be good you still respond to the way that they're acting and you do praise you do you you are grateful as voting said last night for the for for the medical service I'm sure that all the Physicians working on you probably weren't saved but you're very grateful for them aren't you so yeah you do you do praise and you do Express gratitude for things that are in God's common Grace good you can add something in here by the way I'm just honored to be up here getting listening to these guys I'm just listening in um our church has gone through the Book of Ecclesiastes here recently and it's interesting um you look at Ecclesiastes and you know the preachers points out he says um hey it's good to do work work is good with any terms of riding around it says but under the sun it is Vanity um you know it's it's good to eat and drink but under the sun it's vanity um you know and basically the whole point of the book is Under the Sun apart from God everything even the best things are vanity at best or even as scripture calls it even the the lamp of the wicked as Sin even the good things that the wicked do are still sin but the flip side is also true and that is you know as scripture says whether you eat or drink do all the glory of God either the flip side is also true and that is that even the smallest things that we do for the glory of God in the fear of God as Ecclesiastes says those things are good God sanctifies those things and those are good even though they're still pathetic you know in our human strength they're still our meager efforts yet God sanctifies those and uses us for good so so even if we're doing the smallest little thing if we're doing it for the glory of God it's good but on the flip side if we're doing the even the best human you know good work but we're not doing it for the glory of God it's vanity and it's wicked amen speaking of these smaller works or maybe a common works for voting last night you talked about um the the preacher and the person who doesn't preach and how the preacher they don't do a job that's more important than the person who has maybe a more common job because work is good regardless of the work as long as you do it to the glory of God do you think that perhaps we have had a an errant view of this distinction between the sacred and the secular absolutely yeah we we most assuredly have and it it it's ironic you know that that that we as especially we as as Baptists you know would would have that view uh because of the fact of the matter is you know we are not a A sacramental or sasserole religion um Catholicism for example Sacramento Sasser doodle Sacramento Graces dispense through the sacraments that Grace is only dispensed through the sacraments when the right person is dispensing the grace through the sacraments so that idea of you know the the the sacred versus the secular really uh comes into you know Stark relief in that kind of environment um but the the fact of the matter is that if all that we do we're supposed to be doing to the glory of God then there is a sense in which you cannot have such a divide right um we and and that goes back to what I was saying last night because of that divide there are people who have no contentment in ordinary things and not only are we to have contentment in ordinary things but we're to strive for God's glory in the ordinary things but we're to strive for truth beauty and goodness in the ordinary things and find great joy in the ordinary things so yeah that it it is wrong but more than being wrong it is incredibly unfortunate because there's so much more that we're called to enjoy than we actually do so do you think that the distinction is appropriate at all should there be any sort of distinction between sacred and secular no because Christ is Lord of all it right it I mean if Christ is Lord of all then I can't have that distinction everything is his everything is meant to be his right everything exists by him and for him and through him and because of that those distinctions make no sense [Music] I'm gonna try to Nuance this a little bit I hope you agree with me vodi um my plan is coming together one of the problems one of the problems of Abraham Kuiper's theology you know Kuiper had that the side of piety then he had the side of you know everything must be sacred everything must be redeemed for Christ what are the problems that results from it is that Kuiper himself this is no secret if it was a secret I wouldn't tell you but Kuiper himself would stay home and write an article for his Daily newspaper on Sunday because he said well I'm doing this for the glory of God and going to churches for the glory of God if I'm putting putting gas you know many of the kiberians if I'm putting gas in the car doing for the glory of God so the sacred and secular have no distinction at all so there's nothing Superior about being in the house of God and worshiping God or nothing Superior about the means of Grace I get alarmed also when I hear even some reformed theologians say since all of life is sacred I actually heard this literally at a conference I was at since all of life is sacred doesn't really matter if you do your daily devotions because well you're doing all kinds of sacred things all day long so I agree with the principle that all of life is sacred but I think there's still a difference it's the same thing in marriage there are sacred moments in marriage and there are ordinary moments in marriage and I'm to love my wife all the time but there are special things in marriage that stand above it and I think we need to maintain the sacred secular distinction in that sense while at the same time stressing you know whatever we do eat or drink everything has to be to God's glory but there certainly is a difference between putting gas in my car and thinking well this is a nice car praise be to God and worshiping God in church as I receive the word of God yeah and I think it and for me and you're right that Nuance I I agree with and that's why when asked the question I immediately went to Sacred versus secular in terms of us up here versus people who don't do what we do yeah right right that I mean that was yeah not that there's you know nothing that has more significance there are things that have more significance but for me when I hear that question I'm thinking those of us who get to do what we do right we have sacred callings as opposed to those who serve the Lord in other ways will never aspire to that you know that like like we're foreign because of what we do we're privileged because of what we do but what we do is in service you know to God's people so I think we're we're agreeing on that yeah [Music] let me interpret this as someone who doesn't read as many books in there Paul so bring them together brother um I believe they're both right and I believe that both distincts I believe what voting said broadly and the distinctions that brother Becky made they both fit together there's I remember when I was in seminary 40 years ago or however and the professor came in and he said just students give me attributes of God and I'm going to write them on the board so they had like 30 attributes up there and I'm sitting there looking I guess kind of strange at it the professor said washer what's wrong and I said well we've said nothing he says what do you mean we've said nothing I've got all these attributes on the board and I said yes you have all the attributes on the board but everyone here in this room there's 30 students could have a different definition for each one of those attributes so now we have to go back and Define each one of those words biblically where everything is sacred I believe that when Christ rose from the dead he ripped the lid off the tomb and filled everything with light everything is sacred but now I have to go to the word and figure out from the word what does that mean how does sacred work itself out so then I go and I go I look at marriage I look at what he says about the Sabbath I look at church I look at everything and then I go okay everything is sacred but now I've got to go into scripture and find where everything fits and and that's the job of of each one of us of the Theologian of the of the exegete is to find out okay it's all sacred I mean from Jeremiah I would say the pots and pans in the kitchen are sacred but where do they fit where does it all fit yeah this is a great discussion and it's vitally important in our day right now because there is this massive divide between secularism and that which is sacred and we are told you know keep your sacred stuff in the church we have a secular State and we ought to have a secular neutral state so we can have religious freedom all these things and secularism is not neutral I mean secularism is religious as well and if we're not thinking in that way we can easily be played into okay uh well we're talking about sacred things so we've got to keep it within the context of the church or spirituality and relationships there and we walk out our door we say okay now we're in the secular worlds we have to play by different rules and no it's and Christ is Lord over it all so in that sense yes everything is sacred everything's under the lordship of Christ but um to Joel's point and Paul how you put it so well we go to the word to sort out how those things work proportionally and how we are to live under the lordship of Christ when we are entering what those would disagree with us call the secular Arena and we say okay but Christ is still Lord here too and so we're going to engage under the lordship of Christ and whatever thing it is that our hands find to do I think it's also important I don't think we realize how much of Roman Catholicism marches through the Evangelical world and even at times the reformed world not only with regard to the secular and sacred but also with the idea of piety a Monkish type of self beating piety I think that that we're not to prosper and we're not to be in joy and we're not to uh and I I think this is just an example a small example of how much we need to work as theologians and exegetes to find out what true piety is what true living is what true man is it and it the work's not done I love what Sam Waldron said a while back he goes we have the confession and we stand on that confession but the work's not done there's still more exegetical work to do there's still much more to discover of how do we live this Christian Life Joel I think the Dutch tradition has so much to teach us on this the Dutch reformed tradition has much to teach us on this in in the way that that's been applied through that tradition far better than in my Baptist tradition uh voting last night you threw a couple of bombs um you you stated last night that the cultural mandate is still in effect today and if I may play The Devil's Advocate because I think this is a question in a lot of people's minds you know there we have some good faithful Godly brothers who are reformed and confessional and covenantal and anti-woke and all all the good stuff right uh who would say that the cultural mandate was tied to the Covenant of works that God made with Adam in the garden and as man is no longer able to fulfill that Covenant now after the fall so then also the cultural mandate is no longer able to be fulfilled by a man but can be fulfilled by Christ as Christ fulfills the Covenant of Works um how would you respond to that I would respond to that by saying that in a sense yes this is true but if Christ is fulfilling that mandate and I am in Christ then to that degree and to that extent I am part of that mandate and also that when we look at the the culmination of all things right when we look at um at at the eschaton then we see that from a in in terms of the Telos in terms of where that mandate is going that that is still yet to be fulfilled so I'm not just anticipating that I'm not just watching that I'm participating in that in the same way um as under the old Covenant no not in the same way but isn't that true of all of our experience and walk with Christ um the other thing is from a very practical standpoint as a Christian if I am to be in Christ and if I am redeemed and if all of my life is redeemed then how do I think about the way that I exist as a husband and as a father and as a fill in the blank apart from tying it to this exercise of that mandate in my everyday life um so again that's the way that I would and I would answer that it seems like the even the New Testament admonitions if you fulfill them you're going to be doing the cultural mandate you know whatever your hands trying to do due to the glory of the Lord and do with all your strength all your might serve your Masters well all of those basic admonitions for just common Christianity if we apply them you're going to be doing what you talked about last night this is important because it and voting and I have talked about this because it really impacts missions and you know there's a lot of talk today about Prejudice racism things like that but but let me explain to you um some of the ways in which that actually does exist so you go into a tribal area let's say the core y 15 years ago they they were cannibals they lived up in the trees to escape the demons and the witches and they were at War constantly so the idea a lot of times in modern missions is if you can just go in there and get them to understand something about Jesus died for you pray and receive him that man you've you've won that people because obviously I mean they're so primitive they can't advance well you know if we go back and look at Europe prior to the gospel coming into Europe we were running around naked painting ourselves blue and clubbing each other to death what changed what what was where did John Owen and Bach come from they came from the gospel and so when when my special my calling is it are those people and as I see America decline why is it declining because its culture is no longer being influenced by the gospel I mean just play it backwards and also when I go into a culture and for example we the core y people even the translation most of them can't read so you have to put it in in an audio little recorders so you see I honestly believe that in two or three generations that John Owen can come out of there I believe that that's the power of the Gospel the power of the Gospel is is if it was just getting us to Heaven that's still enough to preach about throughout all eternity but one of the reasons why we pray for kings and all those in Authority did you ever wonder why we do that it's just not so that they don't put us in jail it's so that I want to pray that they will be in such a way toward me and my family that me and my family have the right to openly live as Christians before culture and have an influence that I can openly be employed and and show my Christianity to my fellow workers so that they will be changed this is about transformation this is about a demonstration of the power of the gospel and you should never limit that ever and that's what we we've done there should be far more preaching I mean I called up last night soon as I got home back to my hotel I called my wife and I said get get my kids to watch what Bodhi said think about this also a man works at a job and he's a Christian so he's going to try to do a good job but if he understands really understands that everything he does God Is Watching sees takes pleasure in it changes everything in his life I had a policeman one time I was teaching on not as eloquently but I was teaching on basically the same thing and a policeman came up to me and he was he was weeping he said I thought my life was a waste I sit there eight hours a day on the side of the road watching people and then pulling them over for speeding and you used an illustration about a policeman how he's a minister of Christ and he's causing Society to be shaped in a manner that is not chaos so that the gospel can go forward he goes I didn't realize my life has meaning and so if you want to throw out cultural mandate go ahead but if you're in the New Testament you'll find it again in this in distant different words so and and let me say though that on the other side of that I also understand and agree with people's trepidation about moving away from the gospel and just focusing on uh cultural transformation because because that's not that's not what we're called to and that's why this connection is important in that middle tree right the connection is important in the person and work of Christ Our Redeemer and that picture in Romans 8. of even creation groaning right because when the when the when the fall happens um you know Adam is in I read this last night you know Adam is not just told you know you got a spiritual problem between me and you he's told because of what you did you got a problem with the land you got a problem with the Earth you know you you got a problem with creation it's connected to what I you know called and called you to do created you to do told you to do that's impacted um and so because that's impacted you I can't I can't disconnect that from this overall comprehensive Redemptive work that God is doing and I'm also often reminded of the fact that you know somebody's going to be building culture either they're going to be people who love God or they're going to be people who hate God you know we have a classical school at our church and I tell my students that you will inherit the Earth because you are receiving a gospel spawned culture and those in our culture are attempting to build culture Carl Truman's done a great job in showing this they're actually building anti-culture devolving into chaos and so uh Christians we have a wonderful responsibility and we have a wonderful opportunity right now to serve our neighbor in that way I want to stretch this then into maybe some just to get some clarity uh into some eschatological Dimensions um so you know we look at the cultural mandates basically Adam is to take the Garden of Eden and expand it until it covers all of God's creation and to build on that and to glorify God and building um so then as we see ourselves attempting to fulfill the cultural mandates how do we view that in terms of eschatology are we attempting then to try to bring in the new heavens and new earth and in our efforts culturally in our building or is that something that we're just waiting for God to bring in himself how does how do our efforts in the cultural mandate tie into eschatology for me I would say think about it the same way that we think about it spiritually right we're preaching the gospel and we want you know men to be saved are we doing that because we want to Usher in the eschaton by getting everybody saved that's supposed to be it's the same question and our answer is the same we're doing this because this is what we're called to do this is the role that we're called to play as God works out his Redemptive purposes right I I don't know I don't know how or or or or you know why the Lord is using me in whatever area that he's using me but I know that I have a role to play and a duty to fulfill what all that looks like what the result of it will all be yeah that that's not my department you know my department is just faithfulness in this little corner that I've been given to cultivate there's a really important principle of hermeneutics here when and the reason why church history is so important when we're doing uh hermeneutics is that if if I look at a certain Doctrine thank you and Godly men down Through the Ages they've all believed this firmly and seen it as the very center of the Christian faith and they're all in agreement then my departure from that is dangerous so history that's why you study church history so when we come to the eschaton I know in history and today men who would disagree on nuances of how that's going to work itself out now we need to study eschatology but I'm probably it would not be wise to build my ethic on a certain view of eschatology because I'm violating that principle about the hermeneutic down through the ages of the church and it's like voting said I just build it on this you know again as as a simple man I just build it on the commands and the commands are there for every aspect of my life whether it be finances or my wife or my children or even how I treat animals the commands are there and so you don't have to be this tremendous Theologian with a perfect system you just have to be a person who reads the commands and obeys them but in the context of the Gospel work of Christ amen and I would say just adding to that and believes the promises and hopes and the promises and lives with the certainty that those promises are going to be fulfilled I I wish I could detail exactly how and with great confidence I don't good men have disagreed on that but I look forward to the day when the knowledge of the Lord will cover the Earth as the waters cover the sea it's gonna happen it's gonna happen and I want to live with that hope and anticipation until that day doing my job well if it doesn't happen in my lifetime or the way I think it's going to happen I know it's going to happen and so I can labor optimistically this is going to happen well when you're when you read the Bible about the end times you get you really get two sets of text don't you one is basically saying The Godly will become more Godly and the other is basic and there's hope and there's yeah knowledge will filled fill the Earth of the Lord now the other is saying will I find faith on the earth so the ungodly are going to be more ungodly it'll be like the days of Noah so you get this the antithesis is getting sharper and sharper and we're living we're living a really sharp antithesis in America today and all over the world so I want to be on the site of The Godly becoming more Godly so I want to promote piety I want to promote godliness and by the way Calvin Calvin's defined piety so well he said that the Old Testament word for piety is the fear of God the New Testament word for piety is godliness and both of them have this idea of in Quorum Dale you have this tremendous reverence for God in relationship to all that you do and we want to be on the side of the Godly that promote this awareness of God this in Quorum Deo spirit in and through Christ and if we can just help in some way by God's grace to to make The Godly more Godly and to be used as a means by the Holy Spirit to have the ungodly cross the line to The Godly while if it happens to one my whole life is worthwhile so we we strive to say Lord put me in that Godly stream and use me and make me fruitful to thy Glory so I may appear before thee with the blood passport saved as a poor sinner in Christ but oh what a day it will be in heaven to hear that one and that one and that one God used me for to help them come into that Godly stream Bradley you had the perhaps unenviable task of of exploring Mankind in the depths of depravity in the issue of abortion yesterday and a wonderful talk uh just excellent one thing that you said at the beginning of your talk that I've been thinking about since you said it is you said that the the pro-abortionists in the in the United States they're United around the same ideals they want abortion up to the moment of birth wherever they can get it however they can get it those who are anti-abortion are not United and you detailed some of the ways in which they're not United on the pro-life side on the Abolitionist side or whatever label that you use um what are some ways that you would suggest that we can work towards Unity between those who are anti-abortion we have to come back to God's word we have we have to unite around God's word you know the the enemies of God take counsel together and they conspire together they unite together against them that the friends of God need to conspire together and unite together around God's word we have to keep coming back to that you know a lot of the pro-life movement has not been built upon the word of God it's been built upon worldly wisdom you know man's strategies let's see okay well we want to get here but we can't say this because that's unpopular it may be biblical but it's unpopular so we gotta let's say this and let's take this little step instead of saying this is what God demands regardless of whether it's popular or unpopular that's not for me this is what God demands and lets let others compromise right let let the politicians say okay well we'll give you this well yeah but this is what God demands okay well we'll give you a little bit more yeah but this is what God still demands um you know we have to be willing to bring God's word again not just in our pulpits and not just in our pews but into our state houses and into our politics um you know I one time I was in our state legislature I was talking to one of our politicians there and we had a a one-pager document that explained our bill to abolish abortion and he said to me he said yeah I was looking this over and hey I'm a Christian I love what you're doing but people are laughing at you because we had scripture in our document explaining why they should abolish abortion and vindicate the image of God by protecting it by the law that people are laughing at you and I just felt so blessed at that moment blessed are they when they when they scorn you and um and you again bring God's word like we talked about in our brief to the U.S Supreme Court in the Dobbs case um again our number one Authority is the Holy Bible we can't drop our swords when we go into battle with the culture we have the most powerful weapon the only one that has spiritual significance that cuts and divides the hearts of men we can't put that aside when we're talking about the culture and we can't put that aside when we're talking with one another as well and that's where we find unity and that's where we need to unite as around God's word Brett Bradley would you mind telling people how they can read that brief I I was so blessed I don't know that I've ever been blessed by reading any kind of brief before but I was blessed by the out of the gate here are our authorities because all those legal worries start with you know here's the basis on which we're going to make our argument and it's the word of God and how can people find that online to read it yeah well they can find it on the U.S Supreme Court's website looking up the Dobbs case and then seeing the brief from the foundation to abolish abortion and there were 20 other organizations in the 20 state legislators have signed on to that as well or you can go to our website at faa.life and find the brief there and um you know it's just again I appreciate what you said about you know everything's sacred as a lawyer I appreciate that I appreciate that but um you know even even the briefs that we write even the the law even our politics we need to be bringing everything into into this objection of God and we're grateful that Supreme Court did overturn Roe however in some ways it has just Unleashed what was already there right and that is that abortion was not a problem that the Supreme Court had caused the Supreme Court federal government wasn't forcing people to get abortions right it's it's the hearts of man that are desperately wicked you know when when you said that that he told you you know these people are laughing at you um in the pre-conference uh I don't know if I think it was in the um the Q a I brought up the fact that in in the colonial era um one of the most popular books was blackstone's commentary on the laws of England and it has scripture references everywhere and so when you said that I'm thinking wow how far we've Fallen you know we we went from this book that layeth the foundation of our jurisprudence that has scriptural references all over it to now people who stand on the shoulders of those individuals who laugh at somebody who would who would do that and and uh yeah praise God that you know that is being done again and um you know make May you're driving Greece I remember even in law school you know even in law school I remember sitting in property class and contrast class and things like that just thinking this is from scripture yeah I mean so much of our law is built upon God's word and and then to see how now even though we're teaching the same thing even though we're enjoying the same benefits of being built upon those things yet we turn around we spit upon the foundation that all these wonderful things are based on you know it takes me back to the discussion between the secular and the sacred that distinction there you know theology 101 that God reveals himself in two ways in general Revelation and special Revelation and we for some reason think that we can only use special Revelation when it comes to certain things and we can only use General Revelation when it comes to certain things we can't use special Revelation when it comes to law and political Theory we can't use General Revelation when it comes to how we worship and all those things if you sit in a cushion chair in your worship Services you're using general Revelation right so we need to recognize that all God's all truth is God's truth and we need to use utilize it wherever we can but also in politics also in law also also in fighting against abortion we need to use God's truth particularly when it comes out of the word of God so I think a lot of pastors and Ministry leaders who are here today uh perhaps are dissatisfied with the pro-life movement or with maybe particular organizations that they've been involved with in the past what are some organizations Bradley that you would Point them to and then I think what would be most helpful is what is it that pastors and Christian leaders can do even in their own localities to fight against abortion and to seek the abolition of abortion well as far as organizations I mean you heard yesterday from Rescue those one of the sponsors here they have a booth out in the vendor Hall and they all the material is free so go out there and just Rob them blind for all their material they have a lot of great stuff so I encourage you to go out there and check them out and of course you can follow our organization faa.life Foundation abolish abortion um you know I think I think the most important thing we were actually talking about this last night at dinner okay okay um and that is that sometimes we can get things out of balance you know we're we can say well this ministry is where we need to be putting 100 of our time and if you're not doing that then you're not a Christian or you're not act you know we need to be preaching the whole counsel of God but this is also one of I mean if we're loving our neighbors as ourselves and we have neighbors who are daily by the hundreds and yearly by the hundreds of thousands being carried to the slaughter there's a certainly certain thing that every one of us should be caring about every one of us should be praying about not everyone's going to have the same Ministry or the same opportunities or devoting the same time and there's still so many other areas that the church needs to be focused on um but this is something that I think I think we all need can be doing something and pastors need to be making it clear not only for how we abolish abortion but I think a lot of people take it for granted that no there's probably people in your pews right now in your church who have had abortion and maybe still have guilt over that that needs to be dealt with or they're considering abortion um and they need to hear what God's word says on that with compassion but without varnishing the truth um I've had the privilege of preaching at a number of um you know pro-life Ministries and crisis pregnancy centers around the country over the years and one of the things that shocked me the first time I heard it it shocked me so much that I kept asking the question when I would go to other um um crisis pregnancy centers and that was that among the women who come in considering abortion that anywhere from 50 to 75 percent of them are churchgoers I remember the first time I heard that I was like wait wait what yeah and so you know I'm in another um you know Crisis Pregnancy Center in another state and I go hey how many of the women who come in here who are abortion minded you know identify themselves as churches always somewhere you know 50 to 75 percent of them and it was it was shocking to me but it brought that same truth to mind that you just you know said that that we're naive if we think that there aren't people sitting in our pews who find themselves in this situation um they're there are and and we need to be aware of that and and and press into that and engage there let me say too just underscore what you said in your talk yesterday Bradley that man it's the most cruel thing in the world to keep someone who has committed Sin from coming face to face with the reality that they've committed sin because there is a savior for Sinners and there's an antidote and if someone can be convinced that well you know I'm I'm a victim I'm not the perpetrator I haven't done anything wrong they've just cut themselves off from the grace of God because the grace of God is in Christ for Sinners and so as pastors I've seen this happen where you can lead someone to come to grips face to face with what they have done and it's shattering and it it's it's horrific for that moment of Revelation to come but it is the entryway into the gospel and so brothers and sisters we don't serve people well whenever we do anything to make light of their sin we have to have such confidence in Christ that we can lead people to see sin for what it is and then hold Christ to them and press into them so that they really can find forgiveness they really can find redemption in Christ yeah one final question particularly for you Bradley but for all of you men you know when it comes to fighting the sin of abortion in our own lands you know is there is there a way that Christians can rejoice in an incremental approach is there any room for any sort of incrementalism or should we always be dissatisfied when there are you know successes on that front I mean in one sense everything is incremental right my sanctification is is incremental our the kingdom coming God's will be done is uh is incremental but God's demands God's law his standards are clear and that's what we're to lift up like when it comes to our sanctification we don't treat although we may treat it as incremental we don't Proclaim it as incremental we don't say okay well just I know you're sinning in this area but just you know just commit adultery a little less right no it's Thou shalt not commit adultery and although the sanctification may come incrementally or may become oh well I'm not doing it physically well I'm still doing it mentally or okay well now I'm dealing with that or now I'm discovering oh here's other ways that I'm doing that and God brings a sanctification nevertheless the standard is the same and that's the standard has to be what we're proclaiming to the culture what we're proclaiming and demanding of our our Representatives who are God's Ministers of justice as Romans 13 says they're they are to administer Justice with our our partiality and so we're to we're to call them to that now it may happen incrementally in that okay it's okay this is this jurisdiction or maybe it's this state or maybe it's this area and we start seeing those kind of Victories um and I think absolutely we can when when we see it's happening here celebrated when they're when they're meeting God's standard when they're seeking God's standard we celebrate that what we don't celebrate is sin you know an impartial decree is still an iniquitous decree I'm sorry a partial decree and by partial I don't mean halfway I mean a partial in the sense that it shows partiality right if we're still showing partiality to the if we're still um justifying the wicked and condemning the innocent in what we pass then that's not something to celebrate now is could God use that right what others mean for evil to see you for good absolutely and that's that God uses things what others mean for evil for good all the time incrementally but that's but we don't celebrate the fact that Joseph's brothers threw him into a pit or sold them into slavery those things were still sin but is God using it yes um so I think whenever it comes to you know if we pass a 20-week ban on abortion or if we pass a heartbeat ban on abortion those are incremental but at the same time they're still showing partiality we're still saying you know okay well you know this life gets a different Justice in this life this got life gets different protection than this life and oh and all of these is still a much lower penalty and mothers are still have carte blanche you know right to commit this that's still an iniquitous decree that still falls short of God's standard and uh and I don't think that's something to celebrate but is it something that God's using yes I think it certainly can be but that's not something we celebrate unless it's truly meeting his standard amen well thank you gentlemen for this panel discussion give them a hand [Applause] foreign

Channel: Founders Ministries

Views: 162,706

Keywords: Founders Ministries, Tom Ascol, Founders, Reformed Theology, Theology, 1689 Confession, Reformed, Founders Ministries Podcast, Founders Ministry, Founders Conference, Voddie Baucham, Voddie Baucham Sermon, 2023 Founders Conference, psalm 8, founders conference 2023, founders conference 2023 paul washer, founders conference sermons, tom ascol founders ministries, biblical anthropology, biblical anthropology (the study of man), nfc24, joel beeke, paul washer, voddie baucham, panel

Id: u9-U4XQUOuE

Length: 66min 3sec (3963 seconds)

Published: Sat Mar 18 2023