(soft guitar) (male #1)
Behind the Guitar
is brought to you by: And by: (narrator)
Recorded live from
the campus of Steel Stacks in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, ladies and gentlemen,
our host Craig Thatcher. Welcome to Behind the Guitar. I'm your host
Craig Thatcher. Behind the Guitar is a
musical performance series which focuses on
stories and memories of each artist. As the co-founding member
and lead guitarist of The Byrds, Roger McGuinn
and his 12-string guitar pioneered
folk rock. With multiple
hit albums and songs, Roger and The Byrds began
to have a profound influence on folk rock,
psychedelic rock, and country rock music. Please put
your hands together as we go
Behind the Guitar with Rock and Roll
Hall of Famer Roger McGuinn. (applause) Thank you so much, Roger. What a pleasure
to have you on the show. (Roger)
Thank you, thank you. (lively guitar music) Crimson flames
tied through my ears Rollin' high
and mighty traps Pounced with fire
on flaming roads Using ideas as my maps "We'll meet on edges,
soon," said I Proud 'neath heated brow Ah, but I was
so much older then I'm younger than that now Yeah, I was
so much older then I'm younger than that now (applause) Thank you very much. (Craig)
Soundtrack to our lives from growing up
in the '60s. I just--your music was
so prominent on the airwaves and it just had
such a profound impact on so many people. Can you tell us a little bit
about your beginnings. You're from Chicago? (Roger)
I'm from Chicago. When I was 13 years old, they gave me
a transistor radio, and that was a game changer
because it meant you could listen to what
you wanted to listen to instead of the
big wooden box in the living room
with your parents. And I wanted to listen
to rock and roll. And most parents didn't
like rock and roll, which was
another reason why I wanted to listen
to rock and roll. So I used to ride
my bicycle around Chicago listening to
my transistor radio. I was tuned in to WJJD, which at the time
was a rock station. And I heard this
come over the airwaves. Well, since
my baby left me, I found a new place
to dwell Well, it's down at the end
of Lonely Street at Heartbreak Hotel Where I will be I'll be so lonely, baby I'll be so lonely I'll be so lonely
I could die (blues guitar music) -Yeah.
-I wasn't gonna do a full-on Elvis impersonation. (laughter) But I heard that
and it really jazzed me. I mean, I had heard
other songs on the radio like "How Much is that
Doggy in the Window?" and "When the Moon Hits
Your Eye Like a Big Pizza Pie--" -That's amore.
-For some reason, those songs didn't make
me want to get a guitar and--and play music,
but Elvis Presley did. So I asked for a guitar
for my 14th birthday and I got one. I couldn't
play it very well 'cause the strings
were about that high over the fingerboard. It was better suited for
slicing hard-boiled eggs than playing music. (Craig)
So you started
studying music at the Old Town School
of Folk Music. (Roger)
Yeah, well,
I didn't just go there, uh, there was a transition. Uh, I was into Elvis Presley
and Gene Vincent and Carl Perkins
and rockabilly. Very much, I loved it. And I taught myself how
to play some of the songs. And I took
the guitar to school and started playing it
for the kids in school. And I found out
the girls liked me better. (Craig)
Yeah! (Roger)
Well, one time I was at school and they had
this assembly, which was usually
pretty boring. But it was about
a 45-minute set and my music teacher
invited this guy named Bob Gibson
to play for us. Now Bob was kind of
a disciple of Pete Seeger's without the politics. He was kind of a stylist. And he played a set
on the five-string banjo that blew me away. I couldn't believe
how good this guy was. So I went running to
the music teacher and said, "What was that?
What kind of music was that?" She said,
"Well, that's folk music." And I said, "Well,
I've heard Burl Ives, he doesn't sound like that." She said, "Well, if you're
really interested in folk music, there's a school
that just opened up right--right--
a couple of months earlier in Chicago called The Old Town
School of Folk Music. Why don't you go over
and check it out?" So I went over there
with my guitar and a little bit
of an attitude because I had taught myself
how to play a couple of songs, and Frank Hamilton
sat me down and said, "Show me something you know." I played a song for him. He went, "Uh-huh." He said, "Uh, do you know
the circle of fifths?" And he demonstrated like: (demonstrates circle of fifths) I said,
"No, I didn't know that." He said, "Well, do you know
how to play the blues?" (blues chords) I said, "No, I didn't
know that either." He said, "Well,
what about finger pickin'?" (demonstrates finger picking) I said, "Okay,
I got a lot to learn." (Craig)
Who were some of your
contemporaries at Old Town? (Roger)
Well, there was one guy
named Mike Bloomfield -you might have heard of.
-Mm-hm! And, um, I remember one day
at the Old Town School he came up to me and said,
"How do they get that sound on the guitar
when it goes: (demonstrates)?" I said,
"You mean like a: (demonstrates bending a string) Bending the string?" He went, "Ah, that's great!" Yeah, I taught him
how to bend a string. (Craig)
Mike Bloomfield, whoa. That's a little--
a little-known fact right today. You were playing banjo
at this time? (Roger)
Well, I--I got interested
in banjo within a year. -Oh, within a year.
-And I didn't have enough money
to buy a banjo, but I had
an electric guitar that I had
absolutely no use for because folkies didn't
play electric instruments. So I took all
the guitar strings off and I put a nail
on the eighth fret and tucked a high string
under that, and tuned it up
like a banjo. And I learned
how to play banjo on the electric--
it was a K-161 Special. And an interesting fact
is that, um, John Lennon
learned how to play on a guitar
tuned like a banjo too, 'cause his mother
played banjo and she taught him
all the banjo chords on the guitar. And he tuned his guitar
like a banjo. (Craig)
There's another
little-known fact, folks. So how did this, um, technique with
the thumb and the fingers, how did this influence
your guitar playing? (Roger)
Well, I--first of all, I played guitar
like--like that with thumb and fingers,
and then, of course, I have to explain
what I'm doing here. When I got in The Byrds,
I had to do a lot of, uh... (demonstrates flatpicking) ...flatpicking, so I
transferred the thumb pick to a finger--
to a flatpick, and then I moved
the finger picks down one. So I can still finger pick... (Craig)
With the flatpick. (finger picking) (Roger)
And--but I can still: (flatpicking) So, I didn't have time
to switch picks in The Byrds, we'd switch styles in songs and I'd have
to flatpick it one moment and finger pick another. Um, the banjo playing
influenced my guitar playing because I was a Scruggs style
banjo player. And I... ...played a lot
of arpeggios. (Craig)
Yes. (Roger)
So if you listen
to "Turn, Turn, Turn," it's like: (demonstrates arpeggios) To everything,
turn, turn, turn There is a season You can hear the arpeggio
in the background. That would be the under thing, and then I'd go in
in the studio and overdub the, uh... (demonstrates) Only I did it
in double time, like: (demonstrates) (Craig)
Oh, boy, that's--that's
a very cool technique. -Thank you.
-Really sounds great. And you've heard it
many, many times. This is what
you've actually heard. You're getting
the explanation. How cool is that? Oh, my. So you, um,
could you play us a little bit of the song
"Easter Morn?" (Roger)
I think, uh,
Lead Belly sang it and, uh, he called it, uh,
"Never Said a Mumblin' Word." I think that was it,
the title. It's a song he didn't write. It was something--Lead Belly was
more of a rememberer of songs. He picked up a lot of songs
but he had a great memory and he would
remember them and transfer them
to other people. And, uh, it's an interesting
thing about Lead Belly, he never played minor chords. (demonstrates minor chord) He only played major chords. But sometimes
he'd sing minor over-- -Against the major.
-Against the major. But this is, uh,
a song that he used to do, it's an old gospel song. (lively guitar music) On Easter morn' He rose On Easter morn' He rose On Easter morn'
He rose for me One day when I was lost They hung Him on a cross They hung Him
on a cross for me Oh, they marched Him
up a hill They marched Him up a hill They marched Him
up a hill for me One day when I was lost They hung Him on a cross They hung Him
on a cross for me Yeah, the sky
turned dark and gray The sky turned
dark and gray Oh, the sky turned
dark and gray for me One day when I was lost They hung Him on a cross They hung Him
on a cross for me On Easter morn' He rose On Easter morn' He rose On Easter morn'
He rose for me One day when I was lost They hung Him on a cross They hung Him
on a cross for me Yeah, one day
when I was lost They hung Him on a cross They hung Him
on a cross for me (applause) (Craig)
So, Roger, what was your
first paying gig? It was a coffee house gig
at the Café Roué on Rush Street in Chicago. It was run by this guy
named Morrie who considered himself a roué, which is a French word
for sort of a scoundrel. (laughter) And, uh, he hired me
for $10 a night, which is about 75 bucks
in today's-- -Today, yeah.
-Not so bad. And I was living at home, didn't have any expenses, so I was able
to save up my money and buy some
nice instruments. (Craig)
So you performed quite early on
with the Limeliters, Chad Mitchell Trio,
and Bobby Darin. Could we talk
a little about-- (Roger)
Well, yeah,
I walked into the Gate of Horn one night
with my instruments. I had a banjo and guitar
in hardshell cases. I was real, real proud of 'em. And Alex Hassilev
from the Limeliters-- the Limeliters
and Theodore Bikel were having a jam session
at the bar. -Oh.
-Well, the showroom was doing its thing, they were just hanging out. And, uh, Alex said,
"What do you got there, kid?" And I said, "Well,
I got a banjo and a guitar." He said, "Oh, great,
break out the banjo, we got all these guitars going." So I did,
and I played with them till 5:00 in the morning, which is when
they closed the bars on a Saturday night
in Chicago. And Alex said, "You know,
we're thinking about hiring somebody
to back us up. Would you be interested?" I said, "Sure!" He said, "Okay,
take this record home and learn the songs
and meet us back at 1:00 for an audition." (Craig)
And this is 5:00 AM
in the morning. Yeah, it was,
and I still-- I went home
and I put the record on and listened
to a little bit. And fortunately,
there was some stuff on there I already knew like: (lively guitar music) There's a meetin'
here tonight There's a meetin'
here tonight I know you
by your friendly face There's a meetin'
here tonight There's a meetin'
here tonight And I'm glad
you came along Tell all the
brothers and sisters that you heard me
sing this song There's a meetin'
here tonight There's a meetin'
here tonight I know you
by your friendly face There's a meetin'
here tonight Yeah,
there's a meetin' here tonight (applause) So I went to the audition
at 1:00. And I was a little shaky,
but I got through it. And Alex said,
"Great, you got the job. When can you start?" I said, "Well, I get out
of high school in June." (laughter) He said,
"High school, huh? Didn't we meet you
in a bar last night?" And I said, "They let me in,
I don't make any trouble." -Chicago.
-Chicago, right. So, um, they said, "Well, June,
that's gonna work out okay, because we're gonna record
an album on RCA in June and at least we'd like
to have you on that." And, uh, they went back
to California and I went back
to high school. And it was a long time
between February and June. Forgot about the whole thing. When June
rolled around, I got a call
from California. And it was a big deal to get a long distance call
back then, before cell phones with
free minutes and weekends. And--and my mother
gave me the phone, it was Alex, he said,
"Do you remember me?" And I said, "Yeah." He said, "Do you
still want that job?" I said, "Sure." He said, "Okay,
we have to send a letter for your parents to sign
'cause you're under 18, and when we get that back, we'll send you
a plane ticket." So they sent a letter
and my parents signed it. And they sent me
a plane ticket. And there I was flying out
to LA on a Boeing 707, it was a new invention
at the time. -Yeah.
-Yeah. And they put me up
on the Sunset Strip, you know,
77 Sunset Strip. I was in show business, man. (Craig)
And you're like 17? Yeah, I was 17,
I was just about to turn 18. It was, um, July, so it was right before
my birthday. And we went down
to the Ash Grove where we were gonna play. And the opening act got sick, and so I got to be
the opening act too. I was playing--I was playing
with the Limeliters and being the opening act. I was getting double money. -Ooh.
-It was like--it was really-- -I was rich...
-You learned young. -For a 17 year old.
-You really did. And then we got a gig
with the, uh, opening act, as the opening act,
the Limeliters opening for Eartha Kitt. (Craig)
Oh, yeah. (Roger)
At the Hollywood Ball. (Craig)
Oh! (Roger)
It was such
a special occasion that we rented tuxedos. So we're all in our tuxedos and I'm standing in the wings
adjusting my bow tie and I felt this slap
on my bottom. I turned to see who it was
and it was Eartha Kitt. She said, "Go get 'em, kid." (laughter) I went, "Man, what a business." (Craig)
Oh yeah. (Roger)
I want to be in this
the rest of my life. -Yes.
-Yeah. (Craig)
What thrilling experiences you had
at such an early age. (Roger)
Yeah, and then
I bumped into this actor who was at the Ash Grove the week before
the Limeliters got there. His name was David Crosby. (Craig)
Mm. (Roger)
And he was an actor, he was in a very surreal play where he was
in a garbage can and people would stick their
heads out of the garbage can and deliver a line
and go back in. I'm not sure who--
who wrote the play. But anyway, he and I kind of
struck up a friendship. And he was just
learning guitar, so I showed him
a few chords. And, um, he--
we got to be friends, and, in fact, uh, he took me up
to Santa Barbara in his car, he had a convertible with these aircraft style
three-inch-wide seatbelts he was sort of proud of 'cause he had
installed them himself. Then about a week later, I moved in
with these kids from Cornell who were on a summer break. And we just hung out
on the beach for the-- and we had Coors
for breakfast. And I got my whole
fraternity thing without having
to go to college. -Yes, exactly.
-It was--it was really cool. -You didn't have to pay for it.
-Yep. And then I hopped a bus,
a Greyhound bus, and went up
to San Francisco because, uh, I wanted
to go to the Hungry I, I'd seen that
on an album cover. And I got to San Francisco
on the bus, it was about 2:00
in the morning. I called the number
that The Limeliters had given me
and it was disconnected. So I had no--
nothing going on at all. But I started hanging out
at the Hungry I, and I ran into this guy
named Adam Yagodka who had been
in The Gateway Singers. And he, um,
he was friendly and we hung out together. And then I got a call from
Chicago at--at the Hungry I. Because the folk community
was so small, if you wanted to get
a hold of somebody all you had to do was
call one of the clubs like the Gate of Horn,
or, in this case, the Hungry I. And it was somebody
from the Chad Mitchell Trio who had heard about me
working with the Limeliters and they wanted to hire me. So they flew me to New York
and I ran into Chad, and he said, uh,
he was taking me back into the city
from the airport. He said, "You know, we don't
really have a trio right now. One of the guys
went back to college. We have to look around
and find somebody to fill in." So we went
to the Village and we didn't
see anybody there. -This is 1960.
-Oh. -Yeah.
-Your first trip to the Village? (Roger)
My first trip to--well, I had
lived in New York as a kid, but yeah, yep, my first trip
to the Village. And so we went up
to Cambridge and we-- (Craig)
Oh, there's a big scene there. Yeah, we went to,
uh, Club 47, and there was this
beautiful older woman with long,
flowing black hair. Well, I say older,
she was 19 and I was 18. (laughter) Her name was Joan Baez. (Craig)
Aw. They asked Joan
if she wanted to be in the Chad Mitchell Trio and she graciously declined. (Craig)
Oh, my. (Roger)
Yeah, she wanted to be herself. (Craig)
She wanted to go solo. (Roger)
Yeah, so we went
back down to New York and we found this
Broadway chorus singer who was from
Lebanon, Pennsylvania, as a matter of fact. -Not far from here.
-Not far from here. Yeah, we passed it
on the way here. And his name was Joe Frazier. And we got the trio together
and made a couple of albums, got a couple of hit records, got to go on a 90-day tour
of South America. (Craig)
Why don't you play
something else for us? We'd love to hear another song. Wouldn't you guys
like to hear a song? (applause) (Roger)
Okay, well,
here's a song that, um, Jim Dickson got-- overheard a couple of
record producers in Hollywood -talking about Bob Dylan.
-Ah. Saying, "It's really
a shame Bob can't use that great new song
he just wrote 'cause somebody was singing
out of tune on it." And, uh,
they got a copy of it sent out to the West Coast. And the way
Bob was doing it was something like this. (lively guitar music) Hey, hey,
Mr. Tambourine Man, play a song for me I'm not sleepy and there's no place
I'm going to Hey, Mr. Tambourine Man, play a song for me In the jingle jangle morning I'll come followin' you And David Crosby said,
"I don't like it, man." (laughter) He said,
"That folky 2/4 time is not gonna play
on the radio." Well, this is after the Beatles
and The Stones were out, so I had an idea
of how to fix it up. I'd been playing around
on my guitar with a little: (demonstrates) I thought, "What if
I put something like that on the front of it
for an intro?" And, yeah, it was
"Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring." I learned it
from Pete Seeger's "Goofing-Off Suite." He did it on banjo. If I put that on there
for an intro and we cut it down to one verse
about the boot heels because the Beatles wore
these really cool boots. And so we shortened it
down for radio to under two minutes
and thirty seconds, which was the limit
on AM radio. They wouldn't play
anything longer. And I put--I changed
the time signature from the 2/4 to 4/4. And it came out like: (demonstrates) Hey,
Mr. Tambourine Man, play a song for me I'm not sleepy and there ain't
no place I'm going to Hey, Mr. Tambourine Man, play a song for me In the jingle jangle morning I'll come followin' you Take me for a trip upon your magic swirlin' ship All my senses
have been stripped And my hands
can't feel to grip And my toes
too numb to step Wait only for
my boot heels to be wanderin' I'm ready to go anywhere I'm ready for to fade, oh, into my own parade Cast your dancing spell
my way I promise to go under it Hey, Mr. Tambourine Man, play a song for me I'm not sleepy and there ain't
no place I'm going to Hey, Mr. Tambourine Man, play a song for me In the jingle jangle morning I'll come followin' you (applause) (Craig)
I just went back to 1966
for a minute. That was just beautiful. So, before The Byrds, uh, and after Chad Mitchell
and The Limeliters, you actually did some work
with Bobby Darin. (Roger)
I did. Uh, as I mentioned before, on the 90-day tour
of South America, uh, it was kind of hectic, I was glad to get back
to The States, and we were at
the Crescendo Club in LA opening up for Lenny Bruce. (Craig)
Oh. (laughter) How old were you now? -Um, 19.
-Okay. (Roger)
Yeah. (laughter) Nineteen, and, uh, Lenny was hilarious. -Yeah?
-When he wasn't in jail. Bobby Darin was
in the audience, and I think he was there
to see Lenny, but he sat through
the Chad Mitchell set. And after the show,
he came up to me and said, "You know, I liked what
you were doing up there. I'm thinking about putting
a folk segment in my act and I'd like to hire you." I said, "Well,
I've already got a job with the Chad Mitchell Trio." He said, "Yeah,
what are they paying you?" I told him, he said,
"I'll double it." What? Okay. -Sure.
-Cool. (laughter) So I worked for Bobby. And Bobby loved folk music. He was really--
he was a good folk singer. He was into
the old prison songs like: (lively guitar music) Makes a long time man
feel bad He was really good. And he used
to want me to play faster and faster
on this riff. (demonstrates) Faster. -Wow.
-I know. So, there I'd be
playing behind him and singing
the harmony with him. And he let me sing, the Chad Mitchell Trio
didn't let me sing 'cause they were
three singers and if I had sung
it would have been a quartet. (Craig)
They'd have
to change the name. (Roger)
They would have
changed the name. So, but Bobby let me even do a couple of songs on my own and the audience liked it. And he was very,
very supportive. He was a mentor. I used
to follow him around and ask him questions
about show business and what to--how to make it. He said, "You know,
one thing you have to do is perform
in front of audiences as much as you can. It doesn't matter
how good you are in the mirror
in your house 'cause you have
to test it under fire. It's a whole different
dynamic out there." -Changes completely.
-Yeah. So I started doing that,
I started playing at coffee houses
and wherever I could. The seed had been planted
by Bobby Darin to do rock. And I was already a folkie
and I knew all these-- a million songs
that had these chords. -Same chords.
-Yeah. So it gave me an idea
of taking like: Oh, the water is wide I cannot cross over And neither have
I wings to fly And putting
a rock beat to it, like: (bright guitar music) The water is wide I cannot cross over And neither have I wings to fly Build me a boat that can carry two And both shall row, my love and I I took it down to the Village and played it for the people
in the coffee house. They didn't like it. (Craig)
They didn't go for it? No, they were purists. They like their folk music
the straight way. Yeah. (Craig)
Well, I guess I grew up with liking that way better. (laughter) (Roger)
Well, I thought it was fun. And, uh, I--
so I left New York, I went out to,
uh, California, and that's how The Byrds
got together. I was doing
a solo gig doing folk songs
with a Beatle beat and nobody was liking it
except one guy. -His name was Gene Clark.
-Gene Clark. And he came backstage
and said, "Let's write some songs." So, we wrote
some songs together, and David Crosby came along and he knew a guy
who had a recording studio we could use for free. And that was it, man,
we were on our way. We got Michael Clarke
to be the drummer and we got Chris Hillman
to be the bass player. Chris was playing in
a bluegrass band in Westwood called the Scottsville
Squirrel Barkers. -Yeah, I'm familiar with it.
-Yeah, yeah. And we got 'em
to come over and audition-- well, play for us. And we gave 'em a bass
and he figured it out, so that's how
we got going. (Craig)
What a fascinating story. I'll tell you what, my producer
is gonna kill me here because we just have so many
more things to talk about, more music that we want
to hear from you, and we're gonna--we're gonna
make part two out of this. Is that okay with everybody? We're gonna--
we're gonna stop right now and we're gonna go to
Behind the Guitar part two with Roger McGuinn. We're gonna pick up
with The Byrds.
