Author Ryan Holiday Speaks On Working With Birdman & His New Book

[Music] you're watching The Breakfast Club [Music] morning everybody is DJ envy Angela Yee Charlemagne to God We Are The Breakfast Club we got a special guest in the building Ryan holiday Ryan holiday is absolutely my new favorite author of the moment I just got put on the Ryan holiday because of our God in his clock actually mm-hmm consulting he had iheartmedia he recommended a book to me called ego is the enemy and I've read this book in like a day and a half and I was like this is great so then I went nothing bought the obstacle is the way and trust me I'm lying but but tell them a little bit about yourself right cos you're 29 29 that's pretty young to be doing self-help books but you seem to know some things I know a thing or two I think I mean look I think a book is what you know about the world plus what you has studied and learned about the world so I came I came into writing and a very good mentor like you talked about in your book I worked for Robert Greene who at the 48 laws of power one of my favorite office yeah so I was his research assistant so he sort of I was I was his apprentice right he showed me how this both how this industry works and he showed me a lot about the world and then from there I ended up I had an interesting job as a director of marketing at American Apparel for a long time so it's all some craziness there okay yeah American Apparel is shutting down now yeah it's very sad not it would be difficult to separate that story and ego from each other right how do you build a billion-dollar company in less than 10 years and then watch it disappear in the same amount of time right so the book is about the ambition that takes people to great heights often is also what proves to be their undoing Wow now did your information come from more experience or observation both both I think you take I think I think when you read your experiences are shaping what you see in the book and then you're you're also you're also taking what you've read in books and applying them to your experiences there's a line from Bismarck criticism you know any fool can learn by experience I prefer to learn by the experiences of others yes that's my thinking right I'd rather not learn by trial and error because that can really hurt well let's go back to American Apparel that is a really crazy story and clearly you were there as you said watching a lot of those things unfold and I'm sure that's a lot of material it is for you as observations so you did say talking about building this company that was worth so much money and then there was so much drama and you are a media manipulator also so I can imagine you had your work cut out for you yeah I mean I think one of the interesting things about a company like American Apparel is it's kind of a crazy idea right you know and a lot of really successful people are crazy and everyone told them when they were starting that it would never work expensive t-shirts yes yeah I mean I'm still wearing it's great stuff but like you know when everyone says like that's not going to work and then you do it anyway and it does work that that's what an entrepreneur does it's what a great person does but then you've also learned a dangerous lesson which is that you shouldn't listen to other people right like well I didn't think it was in the world I thought it was a genius idea I mean t-shirts every color squid shirt did it very eventful is that expensive for this you oughta Barney's bloomin rearranged yeah most people it's not it's not that expensive t-shirts or how much indicia it's not the shirts are expensive they cost the same prices of the research but they're made in the US right they do their own advertising they run their own stores use don't use celebrities those are all sort of anathema to how other fashion companies work so so you you you ignore all the haters well most not most of them but a lot of the time the haters are right or they're raising legitimate concerns so if you get this attitude where I don't listen to anyone I'm I make my own reality the problem is what happens when that gets off right now all of a sudden everyone is trying to help you they're trying to warn you not to do this or that that's a huge mistake then you end up destroying the thing that you just worked so hard to build that's definitely part of that story is it hard to separate the owner of the company from the actual company because there were a lot of things that happened with allegations against him and young girls and the ads and all that because I have no job so American Apparel obviously the founders sued a number of times for sexual harassment well he we ran a number of really controversial advertisements it was sort of a provocative crazy untraditional company right a lot of times you know you think oh these rules are holding me down and then you realize actually the rules are there to prevent people from making mistakes yeah and and so I think I think that's part of American Apparel I think it's part of a lot of stories though right is the the the person's ambition the person's drive to succeed also undermines them once they have it you look at someone like Kanye right obviously he's a he's a genius he's incredibly talented he pushes past what other people think is normal or okay and that works but that also prevents him from say staying in his chair at the Grammys Tania needs this I think okay now trust me I'm lying confessions of a media manipulator I feel like everyone in the Trump administration is Reggie book and I feel like this whole social media era is all media manipulation did you sort of see this coming so yeah definitely and I know some of them have read the book because I hear from them I think I think what we're realizing and this is this is dangerous as a media environment is that people have realized if I don't care what I'm getting attention for if I just care that I'm getting attention I'm essentially invincible people say uh press is good press I don't believe that though I think that ultimately Rose you oh I think it ruins you as a person but if all you're trying to do is go from unknown to known it's very easy right there's nothing bad you can say about a reality star that doesn't help their career Kylie Jenner's commercial hurts Pepsi it doesn't hurt her career she's just Kendall Jenner this is more famous because we're talking about it right now right and so but anyway but though they have to get rich right now because if they don't there's no future it's not a long-term strategy certainly because you're not actually producing anything and so I think that's also part of ego right is that if all you want is attention all you want is validation you'll do these crazy things but you won't lay the groundwork for a real career for you won't do the work that needs to be underneath that a balloon it's no real foundation now I read that a you actually spoke well you gave a copy of confessions of a media manipulated the Tommy Lawrence college class yeah and you spoke to her class I did so you might have started that fire yeah I don't know if I'm to blame for that exactly I have mixed feelings that on the one hand I think I think I share your opinions you out of respect anyone who's in their early 20s who's built a media platform of literally millions of people they figured out how the system works better than the people that I might agree with that I want to see have a platform and so I think part of the problem too is that the crazy people have all figured out how the media works and then the smart people are just sort of sitting there on the sidelines going like I'm too good for that or I don't like it or they think that because they're right that's enough you also have to understand how to get attention for your ideas how to understand how social media works out of generating attention now Robert Greene says if to be able to create compelling spectacle you can't do that no one no one's even going to know that you exist or that you are right you think there's a future for her now somewhere else after everything that has happened and she doesn't have a job right now there's these lawsuits going back and forth do you think that someplace else will pick her up she still got a Facebook oh yeah I don't know if she needs to get picked up that's so interesting about the media system now is like Facebook is already did pick her up right if you know what matters is do you have ax and I think this is true for all creators if you have access directly to your own audience you don't need anyone else and so part of her problem is that the the blaze owns her audience they own her Facebook page got it back oh she got it back both in this weekend but yeah if you don't get it back like if you're if you're dependent on an employer to get access to your audience or a TV show or whatever that can be taken away from you so that's a vulnerable position but they own it let me ask a question which you know you do self-help books self-help books sometimes bother me okay and I'm gonna tell you why I feel like a lot of times authors play to the fears of people a place to the fact that people want to be better so it's like kind of like going to church sometimes sometimes churches are doing it for the right reason and sometimes they're doing it for the wrong money to pull money from people sure so what makes your book I don't want to say a real self I think legwork but books like genuine opposed to some other authors because sometimes when you look at it it seems like everybody's doing a self-help book right now everybody telling people you should do this you should do that but what makes you less genuine well so you look at let's say you're sitting down at a blank page you're like I want to write a book that's going to make a lot of money right the first thing you would do is you would tell people exactly what you want to hear right what did were they right yeah exactly so the difference between saying ego is the enemy that ego is a problem that maybe you're not as great as you you think you are that you need to check yourself this is not this is this is not as viral a messages say at the title of a book like you are a badass right or the power of the power within so and I'm not dissing those books but what I'm saying is that I think I've made a very conscious choice with my books to write what I think is important what I care about even at the cost of sales in the short term to make something that you know someone is going to unsolicited ly recommend to someone like you and then someone with your experience is going to say yeah he's close he's got it or whatever so I think at the end of the day if you're writing something that is true and honest you're going to be passing up some short-term attention or notoriety and I'm willing to make that trade no I mean the thing I like about you I was reading Eagles the enemy was one chapter that I thought I didn't agree with and I still don't necessarily all the way I agree with it but I like what you were saying about it it was a chapter about passion yeah could I believe in passion I feel like you should find your passion and you should pursue it but you don't believe that but what you said was it should be passionate with a purpose yeah and I was like okay that I agree with what do you mean you should you don't believe that well I think it's easy to go find your passion you got to be passionate but I tend to find like if you're hiring someone for the show do you want someone who's talented or do you want someone who's passionate I want skills right like I want people to know what they're doing I want I want passion you see the thing with a lot of time the skills you can teach skills you can't teach passion because we've seen a lot of people who had a lot of skills I'll say basketball had a lot of skills never make it to the NBA because I didn't have the passion anyone a trained they didn't want to go through the circumstances let me cook basketball player who was probably better than LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony played with them but he didn't have the passion he had the skills in that package I never made it so I think it's one of those things looks like a hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work they go well so historically the definition of passion is actually always been a negative like the passions is what the Greeks would would warn us against that's like hatred and envy and all the extreme emotions right so I think passion I think the passion in that sense I think it's the person who's who wants to go a million miles a minute they want to go in all directions at all time i won someone who's like I know what I'm trying to do very disciplined and very controlled and very focused totally so to me that's purpose you got to love what you're doing you got to have that that task you're dedicating your life towards but it can't like I see this way can't be unbridled passion totally all over the place well I see this with a lot of authors they want to have a book they don't want to write a book and so passion to have a book that's great right but that's not going to write the pages for you now being a media manipulator always say that I feel like media manipulate explain that because when you sit in a manipulative an expose of the media system and having worked with a number of like controversial clients what you're doing is you know a publicity stunt or creating attention so it's it's it's obviously an extreme concept but but the idea is you know can you can you jerk on the puppet strings a little bit and get the media to do what you want to do yeah I don't feel like it's any value in shock what's the level I don't like to like to call me a shot job but I don't so I guess any value in shock and I feel like eventually you'll crash and burn if that's what you're standing on yes totally it um you need to get crazier and crazier to keep getting attention and eventually I think you end up crossing the line absolutely yeah now let's talk about a robbery alright one of my favorite offers you worked with him on the 48 laws of power and the 50th law how did that come about so I worked I was his research assistant on the 50th law and then I was his research assistant for mastery and in the marketing message one of my favorite books goes into 40 Lopo that book came out when I was in middle right no it's an amazing book I mean I think I think he's one I think people are going to be reading Robert Greene's books in a hundred years you know and and so and that's sort of what I think we're talking about too is like he could have written a much simpler book he didn't have to pull you know lessons from Chinese history or you know the Renaissance he could have talked about you know what's on television but he invested in the long game and that's what I try to do with my books but um I think what people people want to be a writer they want to be a rapper they want to be in radio and they they don't realize that the way you the best way to get a job like that is to work for someone who are really has what you want and to study everything you can from them and that's that's what I did like he should he showed me page by page how you write a book he showed me how to research he showed me how to tell the difference between a good story and a bad story and he also just showed me how to you know be a man like he I respect how he lives his life I respect how he treats people the funny thing about Robert is you'd think he'd be this evil manipulative person very grainy this sweet I don't know boy he is really nice you know what I had told me because I always thought the 48 laws of power with very harsh like some of the things in there and I did always like the art of seduction that book and he said a lot of women like that book better actually because it is more it's like nicer kinder way to get things but still a man manipulating yeah it's the same thing no but I'm saying for the other powers like destroy completely your enemy like I don't believe in that I think that's harsh to me you know but getting a woman miss reducing are breaking our heart is just bad that's not what it's about it's about kind of like how to talk to people to get what is their drawers I read an article today I look at it in that way then why am i hearing yeah no no it's the same thing I apply it to my life but what I'm said with the 48 laws of power yeah I liked what a lot of the things that that's in that book is things that I agree with but I'm petty total yeah I know I'm saying I was just saying that personally me it was a you know those lessons I can read them and understand them but some of it was hard for somebody like me that's all well look crush your enemy totally I think is something you have to be aware of you ultimately have to make that decision in your own life what I are going to do that like you know he has a great lot where he says you know let others do all the work take all the credit credit totally true and and if you look at you know you look at a lot of really famous people you know realize that they have writing staff and and you know that writing all this stuff yet and but you know I was Roberts research assistant and he never did that to me he may always very generous he always helped me and at the same time though I also have to understand there's limits to that the first law of power is never outshine than that so I have to make sure that I'm always respectful to the person you know you look right now in the Trump administration ban an out shot out shown the master and now he's screwed right and so so these weather you apply them in your own life all the time is one thing but also you have to be prepared to make sure you don't accidentally violate them I think that's the most important part of that but do you know when did you know it was time to like a spray away from the nest so to speak yeah it's funny in master he has this line he says to the master goes the knife which is you're supposed to kill the master and that obviously didn't happen yeah um I think you know I would still I would still work for Robert today if you would let me but he sort of was like I think it's time for you to move on really yeah because I had more demands on my time and and I was writing my own books I was and and rightfully he wants when you have someone working for you you don't want them moonlighting and all these other things you want their undivided attention so I think you know an apprenticeship is supposed historically it was for like seven years Benjamin Franklin was an apprentice to his stepbrother it was four set it was a legal contract for seven years so there's got you have to move on at some point and you have to you cannot part of mastery yeah and you're never going to make money working for someone else you've got to take you've got to put your own stuff out there you got to start your own thing you got to take that leap if you want to you want to make a career out of it did Robin ever tell you that uh you weren't going to be a good author on your own yeah we had this conversation once so early on I got I'd written some articles and I got an offer to do a book and I was like you know I'm so excited as a grobart like I got a book deal what do you think and he was like you're not ready shouldn't do it and that was obviously crushed I think I was maybe 23 and you know my whole life was towards wanting to accomplish that and here it was earlier than I thought and and I ended up listening to him I passed on it he said like look every day you get better at what you're doing so the more time you put in the better the final products it's going to be and you're learning more I don't he's like I don't think you're ready to write this book yet and he was totally right about three years later I did do it I wrote another book in between that was much easier and I built an audience if if he had if he had told me what I wanted to hear I think I would have made I don't know if I'd be sitting here right now I think it might have totally changed my career what did he say about your books what have you said about them they've been very nice and super supportive and he's always I think the other thing about Robert and you want to have people in your life to do this he'll tell you the truth like I don't think this is working I think you should change this um and he gives me good advice you know have you researched this have you thought about that so he's always been a huge supporter which is been great not at the optical little way yeah the optical is the way the timeless art of turning trials in the triumph how do we turn the trials we are facing in the country right now currently in the trials particularly the administration yeah I'll of course you voted for Trump and you don't think it's try no I definitely definitely think it's a trial look I I think first the the first thing that people do when they're faced with some sort of bad situation is they freak out and they make it worse there's this astronaut Chris Hadfield and you're saying there's no problem in space that's so bad that you can't make it worse and I think that's true in life you know if you lose your head if you have an emotional reaction to everything that Trump's it like the way Trump thrives is by keeping everyone outraged on the internet all the time right he actually has a relative he has a very slim actually a minority of support in this country so if people are freaked out all the time if people are are responding some dumb thing you said on Twitter instead of organizing or coming up with a real coherent sort of opposition I agree you're you're you're not going to be successful so I think what this my book is most of my books are based on what's called stoic philosophy and the Stoics are about controlling your emotions or seeing things objectively not getting emotional not me to drag worse donation yeah so really the biggest enemy is in action with it first off it's the first enemy is just reactions emotional reaction I can't believe you said that you're the war you know losing your head is the first thing Napoleon said that the first qualification of a general is a cool head and I think that's true in life like no matter how bad the situation is freaking out never makes it better you know telling yourself this is unfair that I'm screwed it's impossible that doesn't help and then then you get to work on as Robert would say sort of a long-term strategic plan and I think if you do that you know four years is both a long time and not that long but it's going to be very long if you're thinking about it by second that's why I feel like fake outrage on social media is so pointless because you spend every day trying to put out these little small ad fires what about the long term plan and he by the way he doesn't care what you think that's his whole strategy and so you're plenty this is a media manipulation angle you're playing into exactly what he wants he's trying he's like a boxer who's trying to keep you from from getting your head back in the in the in the fight and sticking to what you trained to do you know and so you you've got to resist that and you've got to be able to think bigger picture what are we doing how are we thinking two or three moves ahead rather than responding in a in it with a lag and I think that's what we're doing and sometimes we get upset and we don't really do anything all we do is complain and like oh I can't do anything about it what are we going to do we're just going to have to for four years suffer instead you can be organizing and figuring out what is yeah I don't need me we don't need you to sign another petition or share another thing on Facebook I mean I remember in in in Austin where I lived they banned uber and lyft which is really annoying and like no trust me yeah no sucks nobody said nobody voted be like fifty thousand people voted in this election or whatever and then I remember getting an invite to a Facebook group the day after that was like joining this group to show what you to show what you think about banning uber and lyft it's like why didn't we go vote yesterday and so I think I think that's I think that's the problem is we like to a moat about our problems we don't like to solve them because I'm Odin about them feels good yes I agree now what Trump too is like okay he is a media manipulator but then also he has a eagle so individually he himself to scrub I think I think so I mean I think if you know in some ways his presidency has been less disastrous than a lot of people predicted because he's so incompetent right and so I think that that is the danger of ego is that it is vit the being running for president being president of two very different things and running for president is much easier than being president I think you figured out you said this a couple times yeah so it's a hard job it's really complicated it's like only an idiot what I thought that it was easy so so this this is uh in some ways a good thing is that he is he is at the end of the day his own worst enemy and I think also what ego does is ego in what it it blusters and postures about reveals what it is weakest about right so you know he's like oh though the first hundred days don't matter so he's actually telling you that he's very insecure about how poorly the hundred days have gone and so so he in some ways Telegraph's to us exactly where he's weakest now you have a hard job Eddie oh so you're writing a book with Birdman and slim no not anymore not anymore I don't know what I don't know what happened to the project that I wrote a chunk of it and then it just sort of felt fell away : o watch bowed respect correctly and he's like what is this you actually getting in the same do it again my favorite part about the clip is all the people trying to get out of the cage yeah yeah exactly fossil ghosts glide with a book at Cash Money and everybody was so so you know whatever whatever you think uh it's in arguable that's one of the most successful you know companies in the history and yet the business absolutely and and and I think what's so impressive to me about them and what I wanted to write about is is is that they were successful like 99% of it in music yeah if you're if you're successful in music it's not that hard to then start a fashion line or license your you know your brand and make lots of money that way as a lot of other people and hip-hop did they're the only ones that made hundreds of millions of dollars selling song like they continued to yeah and from the earth like they started when Nirvana was on the radio yeah and they're still on the radio today they are I think in arguably the most successful independent music company in history and and yeah that's incredibly impressive so that's what the book was going to be about the sort of their way of doing business and you know projects often fall apart I don't know I don't love it I don't know he just seemed very Bernie he didn't pay you know when I bothe is your book Eagle is the enemy I had kids telling me you got to have a Eagle Y is equal to enemy well I think that that is one of the things I found with the book is like the people who have the most immediate negative reaction to the title are probably the people struggling with I if I see a book and I haven't read it you know what my opinion is let me wrap it up ILC it's inside play but people have been that all week yeah people yeah totally when people a good rule I heard is when someone has a very strong opinion about something they haven't experienced or don't know it says nothing about that thing and everything about them oh Linda and I think that's true so so look I'm not saying confidence isn't important I think confidence is very important ego is something different ego is arrogance and delusion and selfishness and greed and all the other negative traits that actually hurt successful people you know I don't think Kanye West is egotistical about his music I think he's great I think he's there's no way he doesn't sit in the studio and and subject himself to incredibly rigorous difficult standards right shouldn't you feel that way at some points like with Floyd Mayweather or Kanye you know you produce a rapper you could do something and you feel like ma at the best nobody's confidence so that is I think that long ago I think ego is of course I can also be successful in fashion with half the amount of work that I put into my music right and so so I think it looked at to bring up mayweather the timeless cycle in boxing is the hungry up-and-comer defeats the overconfident champion and then becomes the overconfident champion and defeated by the person who trains harder so I think in some ways you might you might think deep down that what you have is great and amazing but you also have to be a relentless perfectionist who thinks that your your stuff is terrible and that's what's making you improve it all like when I look at my books I think I see all the things that I can do better that I want it that I need to fix that I need to improve and that's what I think propels you forward what are the benefits to having an ego not confidence like an actual Igor there any been all of it as yeah yeah yeah I think so look one benefit is and I think there's a short term strategy but you asked for crazy things that a more humble person wouldn't have done right like Raya Carrie yes she have an eagle I don't know her but it maybe it seems that way but like look a or Mille person with Trump's qualifications would not go sure I can be President I'm qualified right right and so like you or I if we if we were in that position would have quit at any point in the process and we wouldn't have made it all the way through the argument though is is that is that is that not altima punishment frame would you trade places with him if you had to live inside that head I'm not sure it's worth it mm not at all now you dropped out of college I did yeah partly to work for Robert okay ugh laughing yeah well I I mean look I think school is very important I love learning I love reading obviously but the thinking for me was I want to be a writer and here's a chance to work for a writer and and I think you got to ask yourself what does a lot of people go to school and they spend a lot of money and they rack up a lot of debt or whatever and and they don't ask themselves what does success look like at the end of this four years so if you're just following some path that somebody else said this is how it should go I think you're making a huge mistake and it's very costly I mean like do you want to spend $200,000 going to college because somebody else said you said you know what sometimes you don't really know what it is that you want to do and sometimes when you go to school I'll say a couple of different things it could a put you in a position where you can learn about the different things you might not have thought about before and been like you know what I really like this I'm really good at it I'm taking classes getting better it and you also get to meet people who might ultimately help you out later on with whatever it is that you want to do in your career because I know a lot of people I went to college with we actually do a lot of things together I want to met them but see I think that's a definition of success right at the end of college I'm going to have figured out what I'm good at I'm going to have made these relationships too many people go to college and they're just like you're supposed to go to college and I'll get a job at the end and your parents want you to yeah exactly and so so for me it was like at the end of four years if I had this job offer from Robert that would be success so why would I spend another two years you know aquiline right it's like if you're going to college on a basketball scholarship to get drafted if you have a if you if you know where you're going to go in the draft and you you know your coach says has you learned all you're going to learn here then maybe you roll the dice right and there's really sort of decision like that absolutely now I love I love all your books but II go I think that should be required reading but you also worked with Tucker max I did I read one it's up the MacBooks okay because everybody's to call me an so I feel confident when I was in the airport and I saw finish first and I was like oh let me read this how was he working with him I was great I mean look he was another one of those mentors for me not less as like let's say a person and more as a writer you know his first book deal was for $7,500 it was the least amount you could you could be given without them insulting you basically and then that book went on to sell a million and a half copies not with traditional media support but like with the power of the internet with good marketing with all that so I learned was that 75 dollars it was a 2006 Wow so so something might not be popping like wow honey it was in Scituate one of the first books to go from the law jannettek huge back in a novel okay did you meant our people now yeah I mean look I have my own research assistant I think I think one of the important things is if you came up that way you have to pay it forward but I think mentorship is tricky you know people think it's like will you be my mentor like I can't say what it would ask me that yeah how it goes it's it's like that would be like walking up to someone in a bar being like will you be my boyfriend will you be my girlfriend you know it's nowhere you got a meet you got a meet and it develops over time and it like I think you can add someone can be your mentor and you could have never met them or they could be dead you know what I mean what matters is are they teaching you how to live and are they guiding you at important decisions and so like for Robert you know he he started me out my job was to transcribe the interviews that he'd done was 50 cent you know like he wasn't teaching me anything he just gave me you know hours and hours of content that I did you know right out but I learned from that and I learned a lot of things that I use now today so like it started very small just paying me you know per hour but then it became something more over time so when you consider your full time job media strategist author it's a it's both I probably spent I like to write in the mornings I I think it's very hard to just be a writer I don't know what people do all day you know so so I write in the mornings and then about out a lever 12 I sort of put on my different hat and then I work with clients probably have to be inspired to be able to write to and go and do other things because I feel like sometimes it would be hard to just sit down every single day you know and totally well look one of the one of the piece of advice I got from Tucker that I give to people now who say they want to be writers is like people think that to be a writer you get really good at writing and that's part of it but he said you know you have to go live in interesting light yeah you have to go experience things to have something to say about I'm sure that's true if you guys all you did was a show you wouldn't you wouldn't be able to talk about because we had nothing to talk about didn't go anywhere I do only that's why when I that's when I saw you so young I was like wow community so much information that I find viable was hard to get that one 29 year old I crammed a lot in relative it was it was crazy for a while where Ryan holiday man go pick up his books he goes the enemy I'm colored the way that's me I'm lying all right well we appreciate you joining I'm ordinaire have me man and thank you for the great conversation it's the breakfast club is Ryan holiday so breakfast go every weekday morning tune in [Music]

Channel: Breakfast Club Power 105.1 FM

Views: 130,047

Rating: 4.7696738 out of 5

Keywords: the breakfast club, power1051, celebrity news, radio, video, interview, angela yee, charlamagne tha god, dj envy, ryan holiday, birdman

Id: olN9akUNrxE

Length: 32min 11sec (1931 seconds)

Published: Tue May 09 2017