BINGHAM: Good evening, I'm Nathan W. Bingham,
and welcome to Ask Ligonier. Over the next hour, you're going to have the opportunity
to ask your biblical and theological questions to our special guest. So, who is our special
guest this evening? He is the president of Reformation Bible College. He serves as the
chief academic officer for Ligonier Ministries and is also a Ligonier Ministries teaching
fellow. He's also the host of a number of podcasts. Who am I speaking about? Dr. Stephen
Nichols. Dr. Nichols, thank you for joining us. I mentioned
that you're the host of a number of podcasts, one of them is the podcast Open Book, and
season two has just dropped. The featured guest on that season was John MacArthur. What
was it like to spend time with Dr. MacArthur and to talk to him about books and the impact
they've had on his life and ministry? NICHOLS: It was great of course, you know,
and I really enjoyed it. It was interesting to me because as we started to get into it,
I thought, "I see what he's trying to do here." He was linking together the influences on
him as he was starting the ministry there at Grace fifty years ago. And he started off
talking about his ecclesiology and then he went to his doctrine of God, and he just kept
moving. And I think it was about the fourth or fifth episode, it sort of dawned on me
what was happening here. He had put a lot of thought into what were clearly influential
books on him. So this was just…it was a real joy for me
and as I was participating in it, I sort of saw it unfold. And I just hope it's helpful
for people. I hope it's helpful for pastors as they think about their ministry, but also
for people who sit in the pew and think about what it means to be in the church, what the
church means for us, how intentional we have to be about preaching, about church practice,
about our theology. I think all that comes through. Plus, I mean we just know MacArthur, he's
just a solid guy. And we're just so grateful for him, for the faithful ministry that he's
had. The friendship that he had for R.C., that comes through, and you hear him making
reference to R.C.. So it's just, it was an enjoyable time. I hope people enjoy it. I
hope they get to know him a little bit better and also help…hope they think a little better
having listened to some of these episodes. BINGHAM: Well, I know I've enjoyed listening
to it, and if you haven't already, I do encourage you to subscribe. Just search for Open Book,
wherever you listen to podcasts, or go to openbookpodcast.com. Now if you have a question for Dr. Nichols
this evening, you can submit those questions using the #askligonier on Twitter, you can
send us a message on Facebook, or basically leave us a comment wherever you're watching
a livestream this evening. Now, Dr. Nichols, would you be game to begin this marathon this
evening with a sprint… NICHOLS: Yes. BINGHAM: …and do a little bit of a lightning
round? NICHOLS: Let's go. BINGHAM: Okay. So, lighting round means we're
trying to aim for less than 90 seconds for an answer. Alright well, we've got an easy
one here for you to begin the lightning round. Susan on Twitter wants to know in 90 seconds
or less, "What is the majesty of God?" NICHOLS: So see, I usually trust you Nathan,
but you say it is an easy one, and it's the majesty of God, but here we go. The psalmist
says, "God dwells in light inaccessible." We can use any word. I remember talking to
R.C. about this and he said, "You know, the word I used was, 'holiness.'" But there's
a lot of words we can use – "glory," "transcendence," "majesty." What we're talking about here is the Godness
of God. It's an awkward expression. This is the most perfect Being, God. And there's a
sense in which He has revealed Himself and we know who He is. We know who He is in the
full complex of His attributes, and in His works, and in His decrees, but there's a sense
in which God is a mystery. And the Bible uses a host of ways to get at it. Sometimes we
even say "God is awesome." In the old days, they would say, "God is terrible," right?
It's not how we use that word today, but to say "the majesty of God" is one of the ways
we expressed the Godness of who God is. BINGHAM: I think you did good for less than
90 seconds. NICHOLS: Well, let's go. Next one. BINGHAM: Next question from Facebook, "What
are your favorite classic works throughout church history?" NICHOLS: Oh this is, so one thing you could
do is, let's have one for every century. I think it's a great thing. We overlook some
centuries, but I only have 90 seconds, so we'll skip a few centuries. So we go to the
early church. I love The Martyrdom of Polycarp, it's a second century text. It gives us fresh
insight into what was happening in the church at that time. It helps us think about what
it means to be a Christian in a culture that is hostile to Christianity. Martyrdom of Polycarp,
first stop. Then we'll skip a bit to the four hundreds,
no we'll stop…and we'll, yeah, we'll go to the four hundreds. We'll pick up Augustine's
Confessions and Leo's Tome, but Leo's Tome, you know, "tome" is a big book. It's actually
only a seven-page letter, so we'll throw that in. Aquinas, so the Summa Theologica, I've
got a beautiful copy of Latin on one side and the English on the other, but you can
you find all kinds of versions. We come to the Reformation, I'm a big fan
of the Three Treatises, Luther's Three Treatises. You have to have Calvin's Institutes, it's
that mature thought of the Reformation. It's been going for a couple decades, Calvin gives
it to us. We can skip on to Edwards, and I always tell people, you know, Religious Affections,
Freedom of the Will, Original Sin, you know, you're at the deep end. Start with the sermons.
And I'll tell you, one of my favorite Edward sermons, is a sermon called The Most High,
A Prayer Hearing God. And it is a beautiful sermon on the doctrine of God and prayer. And then let's go to Charles Hodge, a good
systematic theology, and let's go right up to Holiness of God. We skipped a few centuries,
but it's enough to get started. BINGHAM: That's good. They'll have to look
on Amazon to try and find some of the copies, I'm sure. NICHOLS: Go ahead. BINGHAM: Next question for you, Scott on Facebook,
"Who was Martin Bucer?" NICHOLS: Oh so, Bucer was… BINGHAM: Thank you for the correct pronunciation. NICHOLS: That's okay. Bucer was one
of the Reformers. One of the things I loved about Bucer was he ends up going to Cambridge,
he's such a star on the continent, he gets invited over to Cambridge, and this is the
time of young Edward VI, who is the godly young king, and he's in between Henry and
Queen Mary. And under that, under him rather in his reign, the Reformation just flourished.
So, Bucer is invited over to Cambridge. The other thing that's interesting about Bucer
is, his wife had married four times. He was the…she was widowed three times. He was
the fourth husband to Wibrandis. So sometimes she's called the wife of the ref…the bride
of the Reformation. But Bucer was just a brilliant scholar, but
what happened to him was once he got to Cambridge, the water, something didn't just, didn't agree
with him at all, and he picked up parasites. It killed him after he was there a few years.
So he didn't live as long as some of the Reformers. He didn't leave us behind as much of a corpus
as other Reformers, but a very significant Reformer, who was both on the continent and
at Cambridge. And just add quickly, I think we have a few more seconds, it was his preaching
at Cambridge that probably was the most impactful. And if you ever get to go to Cambridge, there's
always the King's College Chapel, right? It's towering. It's where they do the Christmas
Eve service, everybody knows it. The church you need to go to is the Church of St. Edward
the Confessor. It's so small, it's tucked away, it's not even surrounded by a street,
it's a little walkway just to get to it. That was the center of the Reformation. Thomas
Bilney preached there, Ridley preached there, and Bucer preached there. And it was his preaching
that had a huge effect on these Cambridge students who then went out and took the Reformation
with them. BINGHAM: Well, Ben from YouTube says, "How
much credence should we put in early church writings like the Didache?" NICHOLS: Yeah, so the early church is interesting
just because of its proximity to the New Testament. It does not mean it's always right. And I
think there's an assumption there that the closer you get to the source, the more pure.
Well, that's not necessarily the case. There's a lot of danger zones as we get into the early
church. Now having said that, I've got to be very grateful for the three main areas
where the early church helps us: canon development, the Christological controversies, which then
spill over into the Trinitarian heresies, and giving us a solid understanding of how
the Scriptures came together and how we are to understand the Scriptures as the Word of
God. A solid Christology coming to us ultimately in the Nicene and Chalcedonian Creed, and
then a solid Trinitarian understanding, and that comes to us in its fullest flower and
blossom in Augustine. So, those are areas where we can be very much helped by the early
church. But on some other areas, for instance, one
of the most prominent views of the atonement in the early church was the ransom theory,
and there's nothing necessarily wrong with the ransom theory. The question is, you know,
who's God paying the ransom to? And very quickly, it emerged that God is paying the ransom to
Satan, and that's just bad theology. We see centuries later, the preferred view of the
atonement is the substitutionary view of the atonement. So to say, well you know, the early
church was ransom theory, ransom theory, ransom theory. Substitutionary atonement is sort
of Johnny-come-lately. That is a misappropriation of the early church. So, a lot of promise
in the early church, but some pitfalls, and it's like anything in church history. Ultimately,
we have to hold it up to the standard of God's Word to judge it. BINGHAM: Aaron from Twitter wants to know,
"Does God really love the sinner, but hate the sin?" NICHOLS: You know, you hear this all the time,
don't you? And it comes under the category of, we'd like to try to help out God. There
are elements to the revelation of God that are difficult for us to take. And one of them
is anytime we associate the word "hate" with God. It's hard for us to do that. But here's
what we have, we have it in Scripture. So this idea that God hates the sin, loves the
sinner, is contrary to two Psalms and also contrary to the opening verses of the book
of Malachi, "Esau have I hated, Jacob have I loved." We have to be very careful that
we don't think somehow we help God by improving His PR for folks. So we have to be governed
here by the text. Now, I don't think that means we run around
saying, "God hates these particular sinners, God hates this particular group," and hold
banners up, and parade up and down the street, saying, "God hates (fill-in the social group)".
I don't think that's the call for us, but neither do I think there's merit in that phrase.
What we do need to talk about is that I was a worse sinner than anyone that we want to
say God hates, we all were. And to understand, you know, R.C. said this, and I'm past, in
this lightning round, I'm past the 90 seconds… BINGHAM: It's okay. NICHOLS: …R.C. said this how many times,
right? It's one sin, just the smallest sin is an affront to the holiness of God and just
brings down the thundering wrath of God upon us. And when we slip into these kind of statements,
we think we're doing God a favor, but we're not doing sinners any favor, because we're
not helping them see the wrath of God, we're not helping them see what that means. And
until they see that, they don't see their true need for a substitute, and they don't
fully understand what Christ was doing on the cross. So, sometimes we have to be careful
in how we want to help God's PR. BINGHAM: Another question from Twitter for
you, "Can you be Reformed and not agree with paedobaptism?" NICHOLS: Yeah, yes, of course. I knew we were
going to get into baptism eventually here. So if we're talking about Reformed, who are
you talking about? Well, the Reformation. And what comes out of the Reformation? And
so you've got the Solas, and also in addition to the Solas and what sort of holds the Solas
together is the view of the sovereignty of God. And this is true whether or not you're
reading Luther or Calvin. You're going to see it all the way through the Reformers,
and you see it in Luther in his Bondage of the Will. In fact, Luther says in Bondage
of the Will, so we're talking about sovereignty of God, doctrine of election, all those tall
grass doctrines people don't like to get into, right? What does Luther say? "This is the
centerpiece of the Reformation." Alright, this is Mr. Justification by faith saying,
"No, no, the centerpiece is election and God's sovereignty and God's decrees." So, to be Reformed is to have a classical
understanding of who God is. This comes to us from the creeds, to have an orthodox classical
understanding of Christology, again from the creeds. We've got the Solas from the Reformers,
an unmitigated commitment to the sovereignty of God and the decrees of God. I think it
affects a certain hermeneutic, I think eventually you're going to end up being covenantal, if
you're Reformed, and have a covenantal view of Scripture and a covenantal hermeneutic. But do you carry that covenantal hermeneutic
all the way through to baptism, like the Presbyterians do, or the Congregationalists of old did?
Or do you stop short and you have a believer's baptism view? I think, first of all, it was
perfectly within the bounds of Reformation, and I think it's within the bounds of being
Reformed. So, I'm of a mind to be inclusive on the baptism issue when it comes to being
Reformed. BINGHAM: Alright, we have another question
from Facebook for you, "Did Calvin use the Septuagint?" NICHOLS: So, this is interesting. They all
knew Greek very well, the Reformers, they all knew Greek very well. Not all of them
knew Hebrew as well. Calvin knew Hebrew. The other thing that's interesting is that we
miss sometimes, is Calvin spent time at Strasbourg, and Strasbourg was the home of probably the
best exegesis that was happening during the time of Reformation, of the Reformation. And
it was there in fact, this is where we get that the Hebrew work that underlies Luther's
work in terms of the scholarship and the Hebrew grammars, they're coming out of Strasbourg,
that's underlying for Luther's work. And this is also true of the city of Basel, and Calvin
spent time there. So, Calvin knew his Hebrew. He knew his Greek. You see him using his Hebrew
in his Old Testament commentaries. But as a general rule, the Reformers knew their Greek
better than they did their Hebrew. BINGHAM: Alright, I think we'll call that
the end of the lightning round. You survived, you made it. I do want to let folks know that
are watching live online, that although tonight is a special event, answering biblical and
theological questions isn't anything new for Ligonier Ministries. For almost fifty years
we've been doing this, whether it was what R.C. Sproul used to call in the '70s "Gabfests,"
or later "Q&A sessions" at conferences, or more formal "Ask R.C." events. We even had
Dr. Sproul on Twitter answering theological questions on several occasions. Or most recently, our newest outreach, the
Ask Ligonier chat service, which I want to tell you about now, 24 hours a day, six days
a week. You can ask your biblical and theological questions inside the Ligonier app by messaging
us on social media, by pressing the chat bubble on the bottom right-hand corner of ligonier.org.
And we have a well-trained team of agents around the world who are ready to answer your
theological questions and point you to helpful resources. So whether you're preparing for
Sunday school or a midweek Bible study, or perhaps just trying to dig into Scripture,
maybe you're talking to an unbelieving friend, and they ask you a question that you don't
know how to answer, you can always ask Ligonier. So to learn more about that, please visit
ask.ligonier.org. Alright, well, we can give you a little bit
more than 90 seconds to answer some of these questions, so you can take a deep breath,
and we'll turn to this question from Matthew on Facebook. He wants to know, "What do you
think about the emphasis on emotional sentiment…sorry, what do you think about the emphasis on emotional
sensationalism in the modern church?" NICHOLS: So first of all, God made us whole
people. We're not just brains, we're not just rational. So we've got to resist the urge,
anytime we hear the emotional or the sensational, to just reject it. You've gotta realize that
God made us as persons with valid emotions, and we see valid emotional expression in the
pages of Scripture. We see depression and sadness, and how the psalmist or the prophet
will take that to God. We see joy and sort of elation in the text, and how that comes
into worship. So, let's not just have a knee-jerk reaction, and say emotion is bad. But especially in the American church, we
seem to be very, very susceptible to this. There's a difference between emotion and emotionalism,
and when you get into emotionalism, now all of a sudden, the barometer for what's true
or what's real is how I feel about it, and if I feel excited about this, this is good.
If I don't feel excited about this, this is bad. And we can even judge doctrine that way,
and we can begin to ask, "How does this make me feel?" Or, how does a book make me feel,
a biblical book? And we can judge its value to my life and my Christian walk. Sometimes in emotionalism, we can say, "Well,
you know, I don't want to be hypocrite. I don't really feel like praying today. The
last thing I want to do is be a hypocrite, so I'm not going to pray." Well, just start
praying, right? It's our duty, it's our obligation, so just start praying and see what comes of
that. So, I think sometimes we get emotions, being emotional. There's examples of it in
Scripture, it's how God made us, but it can get carried away with itself, and we have
to be very careful, very susceptible. And the other thing I think is, you got to
be very careful. You know when Edwards preached Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, Eleazer
Wheelock. And you knew I was going to bring up Edwards a lot tonight. Eliezer Wheelock,
who was a minister, he went on to found Dartmouth College, right? He was in the audience that
night, the sermon was preached in Enfield, Connecticut, and he was taking notes and observing.
And at certain points in the sermon, I mean, Edwards, this sermon is full of imagery, "The
bow of God's wrath is bent, and the arrow is aimed directly at you." This is intense. BINGHAM: It wasn't seeker friendly. NICHOLS: No, oh yeah that too. I mean, it's
all sin and you're precarious in nature. So, what happens? Well, this had an impact. Wheelock
said people were shrieking, like shrieking in the audience. Here's what Edwards does,
he stopped. He stopped talking. He let people calm down, so they would get a hold of themselves.
Then he proceeded with the sermon. Same thing, it builds up, he stops talking. See, this
is the opposite of what happens today. You see it on television. They play it up, and
they know how to do it, and once they get them going, there is no way they stop. BINGHAM: Play that chorus one more time. NICHOLS: Oh man. And they ramp it up, you
see? So, what was Edwards saying? You know, listen, it's the idea here that you've got
to reckon with. And I don't know how to judge your emotional response, you know. I was at
a hockey game the other night, joy, not so much, right? Is that my judge of truth, right?
Just because I'm happy about something or I'm crying about something and shrieking out,
like what's going on in my heart? So I think we can learn a lesson from Edwards, and it's
very crucial, those who teach the truth and those who are teachers, you can, you can manipulate
the emotions. Be warned against that. And for some reason, American evangelicalism has
always been susceptible to it, and it gets played up. And it's not a responsible handling
of God's Word or caring for the flock. So I would add that. BINGHAM: And it's a comfort for the Christian
too, knowing that God's Word is true, whether you feel good about it or not, His promises… NICHOLS: Absolutely, absolutely. You know,
Luther has a hymn, it's coming from memory. It goes something like this, "For feelings
come and feelings go, and feelings are deceiving." And if anyone knew about feelings, it was
Luther. He's the whole range. And then he says this, "My warrant is the Word of God,
naught else is worth believing." So, it's a good point. BINGHAM: Well, John on Twitter asked, "What
was Zwingli's impact on the Reformation?" NICHOLS: I love when someone brings up Zwingli,
sometimes a forgotten Reformer. And, he's at Zürich. And, if you've seen any spy movies,
Zürich's always in the storyline, so you gotta love this. So, here he is at Zürich.
The nice thing about Zwingli, his career as a Reformer spans about ten years. He's being
worked on. He's at Basel when Erasmus is putting together the Greek text, as a student, and
he's likely helping in the production of the Greek New Testament in 1560. He takes a copy
with him and his…to his first parish priest job, and it was like a shrine, and so it was
full of people coming to see the shrine, and a Mary apparition or something like that. And so he would go down and do mass at 10
o'clock, then he had the rest of the day free. This was all that he had to do. And so he's
up in his study, and he's, now get this, 1517, 1518-19, he's hand copying the Greek text.
He has a printed Greek text, and he's hand copying to make his own text. Talk about being
immersed in the Word. Then he gets the post at Zürich. He goes to Zürich. New Year's
day, 1520, he decides he's going to do something novel, he's going to start at Matthew 1:1
and preach the text and preach through the Bible. And he does preach through the New
Testament. And within two years, there's a sausage supper at Zürich. And it's a bunch
of middle-aged men sitting around eating sausage, and Zwingli is there, and other priests are
there, Conrad Grebel, who goes on to be one of the Anabaptists, and Christoph Froschauer,
who's the printer. And the printers are like, they are the guy in the town, the well-respected
guy. So, they are all there. Zwingli does not partake.
He cuts up the sausage and he serves it, but he doesn't eat it, which I sometimes jokingly
say, I shouldn't say…anyway, this is what Zwingli does. Ask me on Twitter later and
maybe I'll answer. But what's the significance? It's Friday and it's Lent, and the next Sunday,
Zwingli gets up in the pulpit, and he preaches a sermon entitled On the Choice and Freedom
of Foods. First of all, it's a great sermon title. But Zwingli says, "Look, Lent's not
in the text." And this Roman Catholic Church has built all of these structures around us,
and all that it's doing is obscuring the gospel. And it's basically like, scaffolding you know,
you go to see some, some great site in Europe and they're cleaning it, so they got scaffolding.
You didn't go to see the scaffolding, you went to see St. Peter's Dome in London. You
didn't go to see scaffolding. This is what Zwingli does, he just starts ripping down
the scaffolding, shows people the gospel, and the Reformation comes to Zürich. The
whole city votes on it, they become Reformed. Ten years later, 1530, Zwingli's on the battlefield
and he dies, and that's the end of Zwingli, dies on the battlefield. There's a great statue
of him at Zürich next to his church. He's got the Bible in one hand and a big sword
in the other, and you know, there's something to that. So yeah, Zwingli, colorful figure,
fascinating figure. If anybody looks into him, they'd be glad they did. BINGHAM: Alright, a question here from Ryan
on Facebook. He wants to know "Why did you write a book on the blues?" NICHOLS: Oh, I did. So primarily, you know
the short answer is, so I could build up my CD collection and call it "research," but
the real answer is this, Nathan, I was listening to a program on NPR years and years ago. My
wife and I would listen to this, called, American Routes, r-o-u-t-e-s, American Routes, and
it was just early American folk music. It was fun. It was an enjoyable program. And
he kept referencing this ethnomusicologist named Alan Lomax, and I got his book The Land
Where the Blues Began, about the Mississippi Delta, and those between the war years, World
War I and World War II. These are all sharecroppers, right, cotton farms. This is before the harvester,
McCormick's harvester. This is all picked by hand. And you know, some have likened it
to slavery, that era. And I'm reading this book and I'm thinking,
there is a theological story here, there really is. And there's a story that I think some
of us in that happy-clappy American evangelicalism just don't always get. And I'll tell you this,
as I was reading that book, I was reading through my Bible that year, and I got as far
as Ruth, at least that year, so I was doing pretty well. Got out of Leviticus, made it
to Ruth. And I'm reading Naomi. And she comes back, you know, and they say, "Is that…is
that you, Naomi?" And she says, "Don't call me Naomi," which means "sweet," "call me Mara,"
which means "bitter." "I went away empty," I'm sorry, "I went away full, and the Lord
has brought me back empty." And I mean, as clear, like a lightning bolt struck me, I
thought, that's a blues lyric. "I was full, I went away full, and the Lord brought me
back empty." Alright, that's a blues lyric. And I started to think about these, that element
of the biblical narrative that we miss sometimes. I love Easter Sunday. We all love Easter Sunday.
Good Friday is part of the story, and sometimes we just want to get past Good Friday and get
to Resurrection Sunday. And we must, but Good Friday is there. And so I wrote that book
because this impacted my thinking theologically. I was seeing things I hadn't seen before and
thought of things I hadn't thought of before. And I thought there's an element of American
evangelicalism that we need to hear this. Why don't we like the lament, and there's
a lot of them in the Psalms? There's an element here we need to embrace, so that's why I wrote
the book. BINGHAM: And if you've never contacted Ligonier
Ministries before, I want to let you know about a special offer. If you visit ask.ligonier.org/offer,
that's ask.ligonier.org/offer, you can go and request your free copy of R.C. Sproul's
new booklet God is Holy. We have designed this booklet as a helpful tool for you to
be able to share with people and introduce them to the incredible theme of God's holiness,
this important subject that Dr. Sproul was so well known for teaching. The place to visit
is ask.ligonier.org/offer. And this is a limited time offer for those who have not contacted
Ligonier Ministries before. So I encourage you to respond today. Well, speaking of R.C. Sproul, a question
that we get a lot is, "Will there be an official biography of Dr. Sproul?" And for some reason,
I think you could be a good person answer that question. NICHOLS: The answer is, God willing. So yeah,
I'm under contract. It will be published by Crossway, and the goal is to have this out
in 2021. And the significance of that date is it's the 50th anniversary of Ligonier Ministries.
Some of the greatest times, Nathan, I had just before R.C.'s passing, were these biography
sessions. And I would just go to his home, I'd sit with him. We did some of the Open
Book recordings in his library, that was a great way to find out about his influences.
But I would just sit with him, and we'd mike up, and we'd talk for an hour and we started.
We literally started with the day he came home from the hospital, actually we started
before that because he loved to talk about the Sproul family history. So actually, we
started with John Knox, the first minister that Knox ordains in Scotland is a minister
named Sproul. So, R.C. loved that, of course. So, that's where we started actually, we started
with John Knox, and then we would just go through his life, and there were fascinating
times. I miss those times, I mean, I truly do. I love going back listening to the tapes,
he was fun. The best parts of those sessions were when he would say, "Don't put this in
the book." And then he would tell me something. BINGHAM: You respected those wishes? NICHOLS: We'll see. So yeah, it's in the works,
but won't be out till 2021. BINGHAM: Is there anything that surprised
you as you sat down to have those conversations and you've done research into Dr. Sproul's
life and ministry? NICHOLS: You know, one of the interesting
things, I knew this, I knew how influential college was on him, and I knew how influential
professors he had at college. Thomas Gregory was a massive influence on him, his college
years. Gerstner of course, everyone knows and is aware of the John Gerstner collection…connection
to R.C. and the impact he had. But an interesting thing that's sort of missed about R.C., he
wanted to be a pastor. And the whole time he was in seminary, he just wanted to be a
pastor, that's all he wanted to do. And you know what happened was Gerstner blocked him.
Gerstner saw that R.C. should, has academic potential, and should go pursue a Ph.D., and
Gerstner wanted him to do that. And so R.C. would interview with different presbyteries,
you know, Pittsburgh was the haven of Presbyterianism, and is the epicenter of Presbyterianism. There
are Presbyterian churches all over, up and down Western Pennsylvania. And R.C. would
go and visit with session after session to interview for churches in his junior and senior
years of seminary only to find out that Gerstner and called ahead and said, "No, you're not
gonna do anything with this guy." So, that was interesting. Can I tell you a story? BINGHAM: Yeah. NICHOLS: Do we have time for a story, do you
want to hear a story? BINGHAM: I'd love to hear a story. NICHOLS: Okay. So, when he was a senior in
seminary, he actually had a church. It was a small Presbyterian church in a little bedroom
community of Butler, and Butler is just a little bit north of Pittsburgh. And the only
thing in this town was a steel mill, and of course, Pittsburgh, the Steelers is famous.
This is what it was. And there in Butler was a steel mill that made wheels for trains.
So, this is hard-shell people, right? And these were European immigrants, and in this
neighborhood, they were all Hungarians. So, R.C. is called to their church, a little parsonage.
He's married, of course, has Sherrie at this time. A little parsonage, and there they are,
and R.C.'s s preaching. He's also mowing the lawn, by the way. So, he's the one who has
to mow the lawn. But he gets a call one night, and one of the
parishioners, and she's very upset, and R.C. thinks, "She sounds drunk to me." So she's
very upset, she's very drunk, and she's mad because her daughter is with a no-good young
man. And she's telling R.C., "You better get over here, because I don't know what I'm gonna
do when he drops her off. I don't know what I'm gonna do to him." So this is like midnight,
R.C. goes to the house, shows up at the house. She opens the door. It's one of these, you
know, row homes, goes upon the porch. She comes to the door, a bottle in one hand and
a gun in the other hand. And R.C. is a student pastor, as a, you know, 22-year-old or 24-year-old
in seminary, and all he can think to say is, I forget her name, he says her name, and he
says, "Please, you don't want to shoot me. Please put down that gun." And so, she puts
down the gun. So anyway, R.C. would go back to seminary,
and he would tell his advisors these stories. They didn't believe him. "This just doesn't
happen to a student pastor, right? This happens over 50 years of ministry, the kinds of stories
you have." But it showed me something about R.C.. He just wanted to teach people the Word
of God. He never set out to do this. He never set out to do Ligonier. I think he always
was going to write books, he just has that way. I read some of his senior papers when
he was a college student, they're brilliant. I knew this guy is going to be a writer. I
think it was his eighth-grade teacher who said to him, "Don't ever let anyone tell you
you don't know how to write." So I think he was always going be a writer, but when you
look in on those early years of R.C., he just wanted to pastor. He wanted to teach people
God's Word. One of the things, I love about R.C. is after
he got married, I think it was Vesta's parents, gave him a Thompson Chain Reference Bible,
because the Reformation Study Bible didn't exist back then. So there's the one Bible
he wanted. They couldn't afford it, you know, he's a seminarian, and he's living on scratch,
right? And so, you've seen this Bible, I think. I've seen this Bible. It is so marked up.
I mean he poured his whole life into that Bible, and he let that Bible pour itself into
him. And so, these were the formative years of R.C.. And you know, we see him 40 years
later, 50 years later up there, and he doesn't have any notes, and he's preaching, and he's
so crystal clear on the Word of God. Well, we got to go back and see him just poring
over Scripture, and making that Scripture part of who he was. So, I'm loving working
on this biography because, you know, we know R.C., the public R.C., but it's fun to see
what made him and what went into that, just a gift to the church that was R.C. Sproul. BINGHAM: I look forward to reading it. Now,
we've got a question here from Rick on Facebook, and he asks, "How would you see the development
of piety from Calvin to the Puritans? How would you see this in contrast with trends
today?" NICHOLS: Yeah so, you know, sometimes the
Puritans are sort of seen as overly zealous in their piety. You know, we have this understanding
that there is always introspection, this is the word that is sometimes associated with
the Puritans. We have these really urban legends of the Puritans, with four-hour sermons, and
why can't you sit there for thirty minutes, or the Puritans would pray for hours on end,
and I can't even pray for five minutes in the morning. So what did J. I. Packer call
them, the redwoods of the forest, right. So, we have this image of the Puritans as almost
super Christians. And so one of things I think we've got to be aware of is how, understanding
how they understood piety, because I think it can help us not see them as some example
we're unable to follow, but actually see them as helpful to us. And so, I'll come back to Edwards. Edwards
was a very pious person, but he also recognized that he could worship God as he went on horseback
rides through the Connecticut River Valley. And I got to tell you this, the 1700s, the
Connecticut River Valley was, I mean, today it's one of the most beautiful places. In
Edward's day, the pristine nature of the Connecticut River Valley, it had to be beautiful. And
so, there was an earthliness to Edwards' piety and there was an earthliness to the Puritans'
piety, and we miss that sometimes. And the other thing we want to say is, this
isn't a development from Calvin; this is Calvin. So Calvin's piety, and here too we think of
Calvin as this rational figure. You know, all you got to do is read the Institutes.
I mean, there are portions, there are portions in the Institutes that are just so, what we
would put in books today on the Christian life. One of my favorite portions in the Institutes
is the sections on prayer towards the end of Book Four. Calvin has this beautiful discussion.
He says, it's like, you know, imagine you've got a treasure chest in your yard and you
never bother to dig it up, you just leave it there. You know it's there, you don't even
bother to get a shovel and dig it up. He says that's what prayer is like. And, you know,
as you neglect prayer, it's like leaving the treasure unearthed right at your feet. Why
did you do that? Alright, this is in the Institutes of the Christian Religion, right? So let's think through that, the Reformers
and piety and then the Puritans and piety. But what can we learn. I think we need to
recognize that piety is ultimately godly living. That's all it is. It's a, it's recognizing
that the call to being a Christian is a holistic call. It's a holistic call to all walks of
our life and to all areas of our life. And there's no area of our life that is outside
the view of worshiping God. And it's either going to be done to advance our self-interests,
or to advance our own well-being, or it's going to be done to advance God and done in
worship of Him. And the Puritans grasped that. It wasn't that, "Okay I'm going to have all,
I'm going to spend four hours in prayer, I'm going to spend four hours in Bible study,
I'm going neglect life." It was, "Yeah, I'm going to pray and study my Bible, I'm going
to dig into this Bible like anything. But in all of life, I'm going to worship God."
And they had a capacious view of what serving God meant. And sometimes, I think we just,
we bifurcate these things. We say, "Well, here this is spirituality, that's the church
stuff, and then there's my job, and then there's, you know, my family, and then there are my
hobbies, and I don't know how they fit. So, they don't." The Puritans would not get that.
And so, I think they help us. So what was the second part of the question? It was so
long ago, "How do we bring that forward?" BINGHAM: Considering of the church today… NICHOLS: Yeah so, let's go back to it. Let's
have that capacious view. Let's recognize what worshiping God and serving God in all
of life really means. BINGHAM: Not just Sunday, Monday to Saturday. NICHOLS: That's right, absolutely. BINGHAM: But before we go to another lightning
round, if you're game, I've got another question for you. On Twitter we're asking, can you
tell us a little bit, and this is of course, with your time with recording things for Open
Book, can you tell us about the libraries of Dr. Sproul, MacArthur and Mohler? NICHOLS: So, I just spent a couple of days
cataloging R.C.'s library. Oh, treasures. And it's funny what he was into too. Burke's
commentary on the laws of England, he had two whole sets of that. So, and they're like
read, they're well thumbed. Lots of Dutch books. He, you know, Bavinck has come out
in the four volumes in the English translation, he's got that. He has also got the original
Bavinck in the Dutch and notes all through it. He's got all of Berkower's in the Dutch.
He's got Latin books with notes in Latin. This was all forced upon him in his doctoral
program by Berkower at the Free University in Amsterdam. Commentaries, and you can go
back and see which books, you now, we know which books he was preaching through recently
at St. Andrews before his passing. You can go back and look at the commentaries he was
reading and the dog ears. He was a very active reader. I asked him in one of his Open Book,
because there would be times where there would be underlining, and then there would be times
where there would be underlining and highlighting, and there'd be times where there was underlining,
highlighting and big asterisk written in the … BINGHAM: It's like the Sproul code. NICHOLS: Totally. I was like "What does that
mean?" He goes "Well, the underlined are important. The underlined and highlighted are really
important, and the underlined, highlighted and asterisked are super important." Right
so, this is R.C.. He was always passionate about everything. He was a passionate reader,
and it comes through. So I love his book, and then you're digging around, and oh, there's
a Hardy Boys. And so, he goes back and buys, it's a new copy. So, he just remembers reading
Hardy Boys as a kid and he reads one, right? So, you got to love the library of R.C.. MacArthur, we did that in in his church library,
so we didn't get to his home library for that, but he's got four libraries. Of course we
got a few others, it is alright to say few others that I've recorded that we're waiting
to… BINGHAM: I think so. NICHOLS: Okay, we'll do a spoiler alert here.
Al Mohler is coming. He has an epic library. I mean epic. He has an intern who just catalogs
books for him. And then we also did… BINGHAM: Is that a full-time role? NICHOLS: Oh yeah, I'm sure it is. And he numbers
all his books, you know? You have to wait for the episodes to find out what number he
is up to. Then, we did Derek Thomas for a few episodes, lot of episodes, and he has
a library in one office, he has a library in another office, he has a library at home,
but then he has a separate room that is set up with like stacks like a library, and it's
this basic size office room full of stacks. Those were his books. So one of the things you begin to see, and
this is what's interesting. Because when I do these Open Books, when I do these episodes
rather, for Open Book, this is what I realize, these books really impacted these people.
These are people who care about ideas, and these books really impact people. So you don't
have to have a huge library, but you have to have a good one, and not only do you have
to have a good one, you've got to read them. And it's amazing, even a library of a hundred
good books, think about what that can do for you. Think about the framework that can give
you. And that's what I come away with. Every time I talk to these guys, I mean they read
a book, they want to know their view on…this was Derek Thomas. He wanted to know his view
on baptism. He came out of more of a believer's baptism. It was a book that he read that led
him to Scripture that led him to his view of baptism. It was John Stott's Basic Christianity
that led him to Christ. Books were hugely influential on him, hugely influential on
Al Mohler. I've never been with Al where he hasn't gone to a used bookstore and come back
with an armload of books. And, books were hugely influential on R.C.. It's because,
you know, books really do shape us. And that's why it's important what we read, that we read
good books. So, that's what I come away with these recordings. BINGHAM: Well, if you just tuned in, we are
referencing Dr. Nichols' podcast Open Book. You can subscribe to that by searching for
Open Book with Stephen Nichols, wherever you listen to podcasts or by visiting openbookpodcast.com Are you ready for our second lightning round
of the evening? Okay, Caleb from YouTube, he asks, "How can I love the truth but not
become a Pharisee?" NICHOLS: Yeah, sure. So again, one of the
things we go back to is recognizing who we are as whole people. So we're not just rational
people. It's about the truth, it's also about the…Edwards would call them the affections.
Now this is not the emotions, but Edwards would say, "Listen, this is when you know
it, when you sense the sweetness of it." Calvin says this in the Institutes, "A saving faith,"
Calvin says, "is the sensus suavitatus," a sense of sweetness. You see it in the psalmist.
The psalmist desired the Word of God as he desired the honeycomb. Listen, if this is the truth and the truth
of God's Word, you're going to see its inestimable value and it's going to impact you. So, Pharisees
weren't interested in the truth, they didn't want the truth. They actually wanted to avoid
the truth. So go ahead, stick with the truth, get as much truth as you can because true
truth, as Francis Schaeffer said, all its going to do is drive you to worship. BINGHAM: Well, Chris on Instagram, he says,
"If God doesn't elect on the basis of foreseen merits, is there anything at all about the
elect that makes them electable?" NICHOLS: Yeah, no. It's totally a mystery
in God's love. So, here's the beautiful thing, go to Deuteronomy, go to chapter 6, chapter
7 and chapter 10, and look at God's election of Israel. And at one point God says, "I did
not choose you because you were the greatest of all the nations, you were the least." Alright,
He's got Egypt. If I was God, I would choose Egypt, because you've got a superpower, you've
already got a leg up to conquer the world with your religion, right? Israel is a tiny
sliver of land between massive nation states. And then at one point in Deuteronomy 10 God
says, "To the Lord God belongs the earth and the nations and the heavens. And yet, I set
my elective love on you." If there is any text we need that tells us that God's election
is absolutely unconditional, it's that one. There is nothing in us that merits us…that
merits God's election. It is purely His good pleasure and will and grace and love. And
this is Ephesians 1, and what does this do, but just drive us to gratitude and worship.
It is according to the riches of His grace, period, full stop. Don't mess with that doctrine. BINGHAM: Alright, another question from Twitter
for you, "What books written by the Puritans are must reads?" NICHOLS: Jeremiah Burroughs, The Rare Jewel
of Contentment. If there is something we need in the twenty-first century, it's contentment.
We are bored, and we have more stuff than we've ever had. We complain, and we have more
stuff than kings have had in previous centuries. I do this, I complain. We need to learn the
rare jewel of Christian contentment. So, I'd say go with Burroughs. While you are at Burroughs,
go ahead and stick with Gospel Worship, it's a great book. R.C. was a big fan of Burroughs,
so he would've recommended Burroughs. I think Thomas Watson, A Body of Divinity,
just walks through the Westminster Standards, and it's such helpful doctrine that is so
practical in the writing of it. So, Thomas Watson, A Body of Divinity is a great text
to go to. I think a third Puritan, if you want the tough-minded
Puritan, but he well repays. But listen, you've got to, you've got to be willing to reread
a couple paragraphs, is John Owen. Just mountaintop, Mount Everest of Puritan theologians. And
anywhere, you can read anywhere in John Owen and you're going to benefit. I think, you'd
do better though actually, if you read later Owen, and then you go to younger Owen, but
yeah, there's a good place to start. BINGHAM: Okay, that's a helpful list. We have
Cory on YouTube. He's saying, "Is there anything wrong with using the "sinners prayer"? NICHOLS: So, it's in one of my favorite Johnny
Cash songs. So, I would have to say no, but I think this. I love the Book of Common Prayer.
The old one, not the new stuff, the old, old ones. And they have prayers for storms at
sea, and it's all flowery, blah, blah, blah, it's over a paragraph long. Then it has short
storm for prayer at sea, and it is, "Father have mercy, Son have mercy, Holy Spirit have
mercy, Amen." Listen, that's it. Have mercy on me a sinner, and that sermon prayed with
a contrite heart, God will hear that prayer. BINGHAM: So, the thing is not trusting in
the prayer, but actually just meaning what you're saying? NICHOLS: Exactly, but it's fully. So listen,
this is it. It's the "have mercy on me." We're back to unconditional election. I don't deserve
this at all, I deserve nothing from You. Have mercy on me. I mean, we see it in the text,
don't we? Here's the publican over there saying, beating his breast, "Have mercy on me, a sinner."
That's, that's the prayer. That shows we are beginning to understand. BINGHAM: James on Twitter is asking "What
is the best biography of Martin Luther?" NICHOLS: Oh Bainton, Here I Stand. There was
a whole bunch of them came out for 2017. I think, I might've written a book on Luther,
but Bainton, Here I Stand. Nobody brings Luther to life like Bainton. BINGHAM: Nathan from YouTube wants to know,
"What were the books that shaped Martin Luther's theology?" NICHOLS: Oh well, I mentioned that Luther
had some influences from Basel and from Strasburg, so some of the Reformers from Basel and Strasburg,
we can back this up, this as easy. The first time, if we can put Luther at Erfurt, and
for the first time he holds a complete Bible in his hand, and that's the book that influences
Luther. You've got to realize how off the mark the thinking of the church was, and so
it's the Bible for Luther that impacts him. And imagine, you know, he's in the 1510s,
I mean, he's 30 years old, it's the first time he holds a whole Bible in his hands,
right? And then it's only a matter of time, and that's what happened. BINGHAM: We have another question here, "If
you could share a meal with anybody from church history, dead or alive, who would it be and
why?" NICHOLS: Luther, totally, because he's just
fun. I love Edwards, I love Calvin, I'm not sure about their personalities, though. You
know, especially Edwards, he would talk when he was a young guy, he would talk about the
discipline of eating. Luther, no, he's just going to be fun. So, if you're asking to share
a meal, it's gonna be Luther. BINGHAM: Okay, final question for you for
this lightning round, 90 seconds or less, "Who was Charles Finney?" NICHOLS: Charles Grandison Finney was the
figure of the Second Great Awakening. He started off Presbyterian, but he was an odd Presbyterian,
because he did not like the Westminster Standards. And he ends up, you know, moving away from
Presbyterianism. Rochester, New York, all of a sudden, booming population, Finney goes
there and starts preaching, massive conversions. He moves to New York city, massive conversions,
ends his life as president of Oberlin College in Ohio. Was the figure of the Second Great
Awakening. He also introduced what are called "the new measures" into American evangelicalism.
Probably no figure casts his shadow over American evangelicalism more than Charles Grandison
Finney. And, spoiler alert, not necessarily for the good. In fact, for the bad. He's the
one who introduces a co-operative effort both in the preaching and in the receiving between
man and God, for God to work. In order for God to work, it has to be a co-operative effort.
This is bad theology. This is bad church practice. And so, Charles Grandison Finney plays that
role in American church history. BINGHAM: You survived the second lightning
round. So I want to remind you, if you haven't already, to visit ask.ligonier.org/offer to
request your free copy of R.C. Sproul's new booklet God is Holy. As I said, this resource
has been designed with evangelism and discipleship in mind, very helpful tool to introduce people
to the important theme of God's holiness and the teaching of Dr. Sproul. So, this is for
those who have not contacted Ligonier Ministries before, to make sure you visit ask.ligonier.org/offer. Well, we have time for just a couple of more
questions this evening. So, next question is from Richard on Twitter, and he asks "Why
do Reformed Christians in America focus on the Westminster Confession, but in Europe,
the emphasis seems to be on the historic Three Forms of Unity?" NICHOLS: Yeah sure. So, basically coming out
of the Reformation, we have different branches. So, they're all agreed on a couple of things.
They are agreed they're against Catholicism. They're agreed on the Solas of the Reformation,
they're committed to the sovereignty of God, and because of the Sola scriptura, they're
committed to preaching the Word. So, they have all that in common. But there really
are different branches of the Reformation. And so we've got the Lutherans, and that of
course is initially was the evangelisch, "of the gospel" church in Germany, and their standard
is the Augsburg Confession, and later the Book of Concord, which includes the Augsburg
Confession and some sermons on it. So, that's the Book of Concord. That's the Lutheran confession
for the Lutheran Church. When you go to the Swiss lands, that's the,
technically, the Reformed church. And so, the Reformed church is the Three Forms of
Unity. And so, that's largely the continent, right? You've got to go over to the United
Kingdom for the Westminster Standards. And remember this too, this is a century after,
120 years after the Reformation gets started. So, now we have this Reformed group. They
were trained. A lot of their roots go back to Knox, trained under Calvin in Geneva, goes
back to Scotland. We have the Scots Confession, which I love, because here's this church history
text. All five guys who wrote this thing were named John. I just picture them sitting around
the table saying, "John, no, the other one, no, the other one." So anyway, the Johns,
they write the Scots Confession. It just happened providentially. But then, you've got the Westminster Standards.
And, and so the Westminster Standards then become the confessional, the confession of
faith for the Presbyterians, for the various Puritan groups, for the Congregationalists,
who come, and they're called "Independents." In old England they're called Congregationalists.
In New England, they make some tweaks to the Westminster Standards. The Baptists follow
the Westminster Standards, they have the London Confession of Faith, which is mostly the Westminster
Standards. They changed the church polity, and changed the church and state issue, and
they changed the baptism language. So, the Westminster Standards comes to be the confessional
standards for those Puritan groups in the United Kingdom. So, what we see there in these various Reformation
confessions is something we sometimes miss, and that is, you didn't have a Reformation,
we had reformations, and we have substantive branches of the Reformation, and there were
minor disagreements on issues of church polity or church practice or the application the
Sabbath, for instance, is a distinction that some make. They see, and it's a valid distinction
to see, in the Heidelberg Catechism, for instance, versus the Westminster Standards. So those
are some of the differences, but don't let the differences fool you of the massive substantive
agreement that was there in the Reformation. BINGHAM: One final question for you, dealing
with the authority of God's Word, so a great place to end. Nikita on Facebook asks, "I've
encountered people who do not view Paul's letters as authoritative and God-breathed.
What are some good arguments for Apostle Paul's…for the Apostle Paul's authority? NICHOLS: First and Second Corinthians. This
is exactly what Paul was dealing with in his own day that his apostolic authority was challenged.
We don't have to come to the 21st century. We can stick in the 40s and 50s. What you
find is Paul saying, "You know, you're right. I'm not the guy, and this is not because of
me, but this is because of my apostolic position, and this is because I speak for God. That's
why you have to follow this." If you get into 1 and 2 Corinthians, you're going to see what
Paul appeals to. He doesn't appeal to his wisdom, he doesn't appeal to his cunning,
he doesn't appeal to his literary artifice. He appeals to the fact that he is sent by
God, and he is the mouthpiece for God, and he speaks God's authority. He is an apostle
called by God. That's his authority. So, it's very fascinating this question would come
up, because again, you see it in Paul. He doesn't write on his own authority. He writes
on God's authority. BINGHAM: Well, Thank you Dr. Nichols for your
time this evening. NICHOLS: This has been great, Nathan. Thank
you. BINGHAM: You're welcome. I just want to let
you know, those that are watching live, that it doesn't end now. When you have biblical
and theological questions, you can ask Ligonier 24 hours a day, six days a week. As I said
earlier, we have a team of well-trained agents positioned around the world in multiple time
zones to be able to pull that effort off, ready to answer your questions about theology
and the Bible. And if we can't answer the question for you, they'll be happy to point
you to a resource that can. So please, I encourage you to learn all the ways that you can ask
Ligonier your biblical and theological questions. Visit ask.ligonier.org. Well, I'm Nathan W.
Bingham, and I look forward to seeing you next time.
