Are Lives Outdated Game Design?

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Making a decision before even starting the game

One thing that went kind of un-talked about in 2019's Astral Chain is that it asks you to make the choice of difficulty after you've beaten the first level. I think this is something more action games should do because the first level acts sort of like a litmus test for players. Depending on how you feel about the first level, you can make the game easier, harder, or stay the same.

👍︎︎ 151 👤︎︎ u/DarkWorld97 📅︎︎ Oct 15 2020 🗫︎ replies

I think there's an important distinction between two types of game structures that answers this question. For lack of established terms, let's call them campaign based games and run based games. A campaign-based game is one that you play typically once from beginning to end, usually in multiple sessions, with slight progress loss on death but no final failure state where you can say you've actually lost the game (outside of giving up). A run-based game is one that you sit down to play a full run or even multiple runs in one sitting, and typically has a failure state where you can win or lose each run. Roguelikes are the most common example, but most shmups and many beat-em-ups have a similar structure. Lives fit the latter, but (usually) not the former.

👍︎︎ 36 👤︎︎ u/[deleted] 📅︎︎ Oct 15 2020 🗫︎ replies

Crash Bandicoot 4 handled lives in a sensible way - they were still there if you wanted the classic retro experience but could be turned off in Modern mode. To be honest, after playing Modern mode I wish the developers of the N-Sane Trilogy would patch it in as an option, it reduces so much of the tedium (but not difficulty, there's a difference).

👍︎︎ 321 👤︎︎ u/TheSkyIsButts 📅︎︎ Oct 15 2020 🗫︎ replies

A smart, well-thought out video that actually tries to think about the issue instead of deciding on something and then thinking later. Great content from Mark as usual.

Lives system can definitely still be good for a game overall, but it's important to think about the purpose of such a system in the game in the first place.

👍︎︎ 145 👤︎︎ u/MegamanX195 📅︎︎ Oct 15 2020 🗫︎ replies

You know what the most pointless use of lives was? Super Mario 64. No significant setbacks as you can save at every star, purely an annoyance.

👍︎︎ 100 👤︎︎ u/darthfodder 📅︎︎ Oct 15 2020 🗫︎ replies

[removed]

👍︎︎ 136 👤︎︎ u/[deleted] 📅︎︎ Oct 15 2020 🗫︎ replies

I think they're outdated for mainstream gaming. There are still ways they can work in games, but for the prompting question of Crash 4 I think they're outdated and unneeded for most platformers. Crash 4's retro option really only exists to satisfy purists who think the way the game showers you with lives constantly is somehow different to having no end to them.

That later levels can get brutally difficult, sure, but if it's taking me 70 attempts to get through a section or to perfect something I see no value whatsoever in being made to go back to the start of the level if I fail attempt 71. I guess there's an additional thrill knowing you can only screw up so many times, but the buffer becomes so incredibly large in that game it just ceased to have any real meaning. I found it more entertaining to have the death counter telling me how many times I'd died trying to be perfect on a level.

👍︎︎ 7 👤︎︎ u/SoloSassafrass 📅︎︎ Oct 16 2020 🗫︎ replies

Found GMTK a few weeks ago and have been devouring his content ever since. Love it and this video.

Can anyone recommend similar channels? I also found Design Doc which I’m digging as well.

👍︎︎ 18 👤︎︎ u/freddyfro 📅︎︎ Oct 15 2020 🗫︎ replies

I actually feel like most games have moved on from 'lives'.

And I find it kind of refreshing when I do see lives in games.

👍︎︎ 40 👤︎︎ u/OpticalRadioGaga 📅︎︎ Oct 15 2020 🗫︎ replies
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Before you get to play Crash Bandicoot  4, you have to make a big decision. I'm not talking about whether or not  to accept a 20 page software license.   Or a 24 page privacy policy. I mean, there's  nothing more bodacious than legalise. Uh. No, I'm talking about whether you  want to play in the Modern or the Retro   play-style - which is all about whether or not  you want the game to feature a lives system. Now, putting aside the questionable  practice of asking players to make   fundamental game design decisions before  they've even started playing… this does   bring to mind an interesting design debate  that has raged in games for the last decade   or so. Particularly in platformers, but also  side-scrolling brawlers, shoot 'em ups, and more. And that's this - is a lives system still   relevant game design - or just an  antiquated relic of the arcade era? Well, I'm Mark Brown, and  this is Game Maker's Toolkit. First, let's define what a lives system  is, so we're all on the same page. Lives dictate how many times you can retry a  challenge, before you're forced back to some   earlier part in the game. So there are points in  the game where your progress is saved permanently.   But between those, there might  be several checkpoints where   your progress is only saved temporarily. If you die, you'll lose one of your lives and  then return to the last temporary checkpoint.   But, if you run out of lives, it's Game Over,   the temporary checkpoints are lost - and it's all  the way back to your last permanent save spot. There might be some quirks like continues,  or whatever - but that's the basic concept:   it's all about permanent  and temporary checkpoints. Over time, the gap between  the permanent save spots has   shrunk - take the Donkey Kong series where  it's gone from the very beginning of the game,   to specific save points in the world, to the  start of every level. And that's what you get   in Crash 4's Retro mode - levels mark permanent  progression, but checkpoint boxes are temporary. Recently, however, the concept of lives  has started to disappear entirely. Now,   every checkpoint is a permanent mark of  progress and while some games might still   count the number of lives you lose, there's no  penalty for wasting hundreds on a single bit. So, Super Mario Odyssey is the first  major Mario game without lives - which   is probably sensible, as they carried  almost no meaning in Super Mario 64. Most indie platformers have ditched the concept  entirely, with Super Meat Boy maker Edmund   McMillen saying "removing lives altogether lets  the designer base difficulty more on the actual   level design and challenge and less around  the penalty of losing lives and restarting". And now Crash 4 recommends you play in  Modern mode which gets rid of lives,   and lets you infinitely return  to those mid-level checkpoints. Now, the argument against lives is  pretty obvious. When you run out of   them and get sent all the way back  to some earlier point in the game,   it's simply frustrating to have to  re-do bits that you've already finished. When Sonic Mania came out - which only has  permanent checkpoints at the start of each   zone - US Gamer published the written  equivalent of an Alt-F4 rage quit,   calling the lives system  obnoxious and infuriating. And just from anecdotal evidence, new and  inexperienced players seem to find these penalties   especially rough. Even if it's just back to the start of the level. Plus, lives systems are frequently unbalanced.   You either end up with so many extra lives  that the whole system becomes meaningless,   or have so few that the game's difficulty  curve spikes up into the stratosphere. But there is also an argument  for including a lives system. So, for one, the fear of losing  significant progress is one fine way   to ramp up the stakes to nail-biting heights.  Which can lead to precise and intentional play,   rather than sloppy, brute-force  attrition. And this also creates   a greater sense of satisfaction when you  finally find the next permanent save point. Lives also create a very high-value reward  for players to find. If a 1-UP mushroom or a   Mega Man face is all that's between you  and repeating half an hour of content,   then that should really encourage players to  hunt down 100 coins, play bonus mini-games,   find secrets, and take risks to get extra lives. And finally, lives can create an interesting  meta challenge. It's not about finishing a   single sequence at any cost - but instead  it's about completing a string of sequences   where your performance in each part can  carry across into the rest. For example,   finishing a Mega Man level usually involves  perfecting the early parts - so you have   enough health, lives, and ammo to  face the robot master at the end. Okay, so lives have pros and they have cons. But  maybe it's not just a choice between having lives   in the game, or not having them at all. Maybe  designers can do something more interesting? First, we can try to solve the problem of lives  becoming unbalanced by tying them to levels,   rather than the character. So in Furi, you'll  always start each boss fight with exactly three   lives, which means you never begin a stage with  an overblown advantage or a crushing disadvantage. Elsewhere, games find ways to reduce the sting  of losing all of your lives. In Kero Blaster,   you get to keep all your upgrades and cash,  even when you run out of lives - which makes   repeating those old areas less frustrating. And  because you wake up in hospital, you get access   to a special drug store where you can buy  handy upgrades like extra lives and health. And that's not the only game that makes  it less annoying to repeat content after   a Game Over - Sonic games let you try  alternative routes on repeated visits,   and roguelikes are entirely built  around losing massive chunks of   progress - because they make up for  it with completely randomised content. There are also games that ditch lives in favour  of permanent checkpoints - but still find ways   to add a sense of meta challenge. So in Shovel  Knight, the checkpoints can be destroyed - which   gives you handy gems, but also makes you go  back further if you die. Are you willing to   risk that? There's a similar idea in Panzer  Paladin - you have to activate checkpoints by   inserting a weapon, so it might be better to skip  them altogether and keep your arsenal stuffed. Meanwhile in Ori and the Blind Forest,   you can make your own checkpoints by spending  a certain type of currency. It's up to you   to decide where to save your progress -  and up to you whether you can afford it. But perhaps the smartest approach of all, is to  flip the entire concept of lives on its head.   Instead of punishing players who  run out of lives, games can instead   reward the players who manage to complete a  sequence without having to retry too often. So while most bullet hell shooters let you  play with infinite continues - there's a whole   community around doing a 1CC (or one credit clear)  where you try to finish the entire game without   dying. And over in Sonic Forces - the number  of retries players use in a level are counted   against the final score. So to get the high ranks,  you need to finish the stage in a single life. And there's actually a really smart version of  this in the game that kicked off the whole video:   Crash Bandicoot 4. The game still  tracks your lives in Modern mode,   even if there's no penalty for losing them  - and that's because every level has a gem   that can only be unlocked if you manage to finish  the entire level with fewer than three retries. System like these mean that new players never  need to worry about running out of lives - but   advanced players can opt-in to the additional  challenge and peril of a lives counter. So, are lives outdated? Well, it's really down to  how they are implemented. How they are balanced,   how they are supported by the other systems in the  game, and how they are presented to the player. But more importantly, it's about why they are  implemented. Lives are one of those things   that can be added to a game simply because  "that's what platformers have always done",   or in some misguided attempt to capture  the feeling of being a retro game. But great games aren't made by thoughtlessly  copying trends and tropes. The most amazing   games come about when every single system  is added with intention, thought, and care. Hey, thanks for watching! I want to give a shout  out to the GMTK Discord - I often talk about   upcoming videos in there and ask people for ideas  and suggestions. It's available to all Patrons on   any tier, and it's a cozy, well-moderated place  where you can talk about game design without,   you know, The Gamers clogging everything up.  It's a good place. So cheers, I'll see you there.
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Channel: Game Maker's Toolkit
Views: 1,085,257
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Length: 8min 44sec (524 seconds)
Published: Thu Oct 15 2020
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