Antonio Guterres on Afghanistan: 'Everything went wrong' | Talk to Al Jazeera

in 1945 the atrocities and consequences of world war ii forced the leaders of the day to find a new diplomatic channel to negotiate international peace security and cooperation the initiative led to what we know today as the united nations and replace the existing league of nations today the un has 193 member states and it's led by its chief administrative officer the un secretary general since its creation there have been nine u.n secretaries general working alongside governments to secure peace and stability around the world from wars to genocide invasions migration natural disasters and health crises the un has tried to find solutions and provide assistance to tens of millions the role has been famously described as the most impossible job on earth but how does the current secretary general antonio gutierrez see his position in today's world ahead of the un's 76th general assembly guterres discusses the recent developments in afghanistan climate change and of course the kobit 19 pandemic is the world going in the wrong direction the un secretary general antonio guterres talks to al jazeera un secretary general antonio guterres thank you for talking to al jazeera you've almost completed your first five-year term as secretary general and congratulations in june you were elected for another five years the first u.n secretary general the norwegian famously described it as the most impossible job on earth so how hard is it being un secretary general well on one hand it's a difficult job on the other hand is a fascinating job we will not be able to solve all the problems of humankind and the power of the secretary general is much smaller than what people think i mean member states are in command of this house the secretary general is the chief administrative officer and the only thing i have is the possibility of good offices but i mean whenever we are able to do something that ends the conflict or whenever we are able to do something that increase humanitarian aid to a population in distress or whenever we are able to do something to make sure that governments do in relation to climate change what they are supposed to do i mean this is extremely rewarding whatever we can do sometimes for one person when you cannot save the world but whatever you can do to help the life of individual people and i was i commissioned for refugees for 10 years i mean it's a fascinating job one thing that clearly has been taking up a lot of your time in recent weeks is the taliban takeover in afghanistan tell me about that what worries you most about what could come next but there are many worries the situation is unpredictable and what i understood was that some people think the u.n can solve all the problems of afghanistan now they say oh now duane is the organization that stays in afghanistan so you are going to solve all the problems that others for 20 years were not able to do so even if they had hundreds of thousands of soldiers or trillions of different currencies to spend now it is clear that our leverage is very limited but we are totally committed to support the afghan people and for that reason i think we were the first international organization that sent a high-level delegation to kabul and that engaged directly with the taliban to allow for humanitarian aid to be effectively distributed to the afghan people now what i'm afraid is that all these efforts might fail what i'm afraid is because the situation is unpredictable that there will it would be a disaster if there would be an inclusive government in afghanistan it would be a disaster if the economy would collapse it would be a disaster if the rights of women and girls would be dramatically violated it would be a disaster if terrorist organizations could operate again from afghanistan and i think we need to do everything possible to reach the opposite to push for the taliban to understand the importance of an inclusive government that takes into account the diversity of the different groups that to do everything possible for the taliban to understand that it is essential to respect a number of basic rights of women and girls i mean nobody wants or thinks possible that afghanistan becomes a nordic country but there are basic rights the right of women to work the right of girls to study that it's very important that they understand that essential to do everything we can to persuade them that the fight against terrorism is something in which they must be united with the whole of the international community so knowing that we don't know what the future will bring i know one thing if we don't engage we will get nothing if we engage and at the same time if we prove our added value by providing humanitarian aid to a people that is in a dramatic situation with millions and millions on the verge of dying because of hunger if we don't do this then it is clear that things cannot move in the right direction so it's our duty to do everything possible to support the afghan people and to help create the conditions for those concerns that everybody has about terrorism about human rights about inclusivity to materialize you've mentioned the prospect of a total collapse of the economy we've already seen the banking system in afghanistan is barely functioning what would a collapse look like and what would it mean in terms of refugees in the region and even as far as a field as europe it would be a total disaster it would be lots of people dying and i believe a massive outflow into the neighboring countries with horrible consequences for the stability of those countries so i think it's very important to avoid that collapse i've been saying that humanitarian aid is essential but at the same time it's necessary and of course there are ways to do so even in respect for international law it's essential to inject some cash to allow the afghan economy to breed and uh to avoid the kind of collapse that would have devastating consequences when we go back 20 years to 9 11 you were the leader of a nato country you were the prime minister of portugal since then you've been the high commissioner for refugees visiting afghanistan many times few people have the same insight as you on what happened in afghanistan tell us in your view what went wrong i think everything went wrong first the idea that the afghan people can be ruled from outside i mean the british tried and failed the russians tried and failed the soviets at the time now the americans tried and failed the afghan people is is the people that is very proud and they have lots of problems among themselves but they have even more problems with the idea that that can be dominated from the outside on the other hand i think that there was too much military action and not enough support to building institutions i mean unfortunately the afghanistan leaders were also divided we had two elections with contested results probably the model of election that was adopted in afghanistan that was a unitary system was not the most adequate for a country that is so decentralized so the the truth is that there was a huge dysfunctionality in the government and we have seen it in relations of the president with and the international community looked at it without any capacity to really uh allow things to to improve and so all these fragilities accumulated and in the end we had the what we had and we had it in a very chaotic way that nobody was forecasting i think it was impossible to to to think that an army of hundreds of thousands of people with the best equipment that was would disappear in seven days some here in the us saying nato and the u.s shouldn't have been doing nation building you seem to be saying they should actually have been doing more nation building and less bombing people and fighting nation building is probably the wrong concept i think what is important is to create the conditions for a country to find its own way the problem of nation building is that sometimes we try to impose a model copied from other parts of the world in which the culture the social relations the ethnic diversity are completely different we need to act with the people of a country understanding the people of the country understanding their culture understanding their traditions understanding their history and obviously helping them to adapt to the modern times but uh not trying to project on them what we are in 2001 the u.n envoy then elector brahimi played a central role in bringing different political figures together and forming a government this time it seems the u.n is focusing on the humanitarian side yet the taliban did say at one point they wanted an inclusive government they come up with a cabinet that only includes members of the taliban should the u.n not be playing a similar role now trying to nudge the taliban in that direction that was a different situation it was a situation in which there was the creation of conditions for uh after the uh the defeat of the taliban the the creation of conditions to bring together the different groups that were together uh in the construction of that um defeat now the situation is completely different taliban won and obviously [Music] the taliban do not accept that there is an entity that will be now brokering an agreement what is important is to express to them clearly our point of view that in the interests of afghanistan and in their interests it's very important that the different ethnic groups are represented in the government of the country uh this is a negotiation that they need to do by themselves and at the same time that is important to have a women's presence in the structures of power of the country un officials have been engaging as you say with the taliban you say it's important to engage and yet when you look at the cabinet members of the taliban government 33 cabinet members many of them are on the un sanctions list including the prime minister both the deputy prime ministers and the foreign minister isn't that doesn't that make things difficult for you first of all humanitarian principles are clear humanitarian action is based on impartiality neutrality and independence and on needs-based approach and in humanitarian action you need to speak with everybody you even have to speak with terrorist organizations when necessary to provide assistance to people do you believe the taliban is still a terrorist organization as it has been judged in the past i think the taliban now want to rule the country and we don't know what's going to happen as i said the situation is unpredictable but i think that there is at least a part of the leadership of the taliban that would like to have afghanistan as a country recognized by the international community and would be ready to pay a price for that you say part of the leadership in your assessment how united is the taliban right now well we know that it's the news that there are complex negotiations in the formation of the government so it is clear that the group that was formed as the taliban was formed is not exactly like a social democratic party in northern europe i mean it's a group i'm sure with divisions with different uh perspectives people have fought in different areas of the country with different ethnic groups so uh i mean it would be an illusion to think that we are dealing with a monolithic institution i was in geneva a few days ago and i watched you launch your flash humanitarian appeal for afghanistan and i heard you say about the afghan people they want their lives and basic freedoms to be protected they want what every member of the human family wants and deserves but in that speech and every time i've heard you talk recently about afghanistan there's one word you don't mention democracy has the international community now given up on the idea of democracy for afghanistan i think what is essential at the present moment is to guarantee that basic human rights especially for women and girls are respected that is my main concern on the other hand for the stability of the country it's important that the country is inclusive to think that we will witness immediately a process of construction of a liberal democracy like exists there was a sort of democracy it wasn't perfect but yeah yeah i finished a liberal democracy i think it would be totally naive that we want the government to be inclusive and that want the government to accept for instance freedom of expression that we want the government to respect the rights of women and girls these are steps that are important in line of the democrat democratic view of the world but we have no illusions that a typical liberal democracy will work immediately in in afghanistan and let's be honest there are many countries in the world where that doesn't happen well let me talk about some of the countries around the world where democracy is potentially under threat we've seen coups in mali myanmar guinea we've seen the suspension of parliament in tunisia the assassination of the prime minister in haiti how worried are you about democracy in the world i'm very worried uh i think that not only democracy i'm worried with the fact that more and more we see power taken by force and i see how divisions are increasing within societies polarization of societies the dress of truth when the same fact is described in totally different ways by different politicians and different groups within the society populism xenophobia racism i think there is a number of serious threats that are happening today in the developed world in traditional liberal democracies there are serious threats that need to be faced in a matter of weeks it will be the first anniversary of the clashes in tigre and of the military intervention by ethiopia in the early stages i know you used your relationship with prime minister abe ahmed to try and calm things down he told you that there were no eritrean troops in the country and yet they were they were executing people they were raping people he told you he was going to open up humanitarian access that still hasn't happened tell me are you disappointed in the ethiopian prime minister i am disappointed with ethiopian situation in general ethiopians have in my opinion failed in their capacity to address the problems of their own diversity and i'm very worried about the situation because we have been engaging both the government the prime minister and the tplf uh martin griffith visited the leadership of the plf and as you have as you know the when i made the appeal for a ceasefire for free humanitarian access to all areas of the territory and for the beginning of a ethiopian led dialogue um we received a letter from the leadership of the of the tplf i mean showing their interest also incorporating with u.n so the drama is that i think both sides are still convinced they can win the war and i'm deeply convinced that there is no military solution i don't think that it is possible to defeat the tplf integra namely because it is clear that they are very strongly integrated in society and that they have a real fighting capacity and i also think that there is no way that ukrainians can rule ethiopia as in to a certain extent they did in the past so it is obvious there is no military solution and it is obvious that they need to come together we hoped that the humanitarian access would be the way to facilitate things and the truth is that we still do not see the will to stop the war and come to a serious dialogue for a solution i hope this will happen sooner rather than later because the risks for ethiopia are huge and a collapse of ethiopia would be a disaster for the region and it would be tragic for the ethiopian people jeffrey feltman the u.s special envoy he actually said this dramatic quote that ethiopia could make syria look like child's play do you agree i'm afraid if if there will be a collapse in ethiopia with the complexity of the ethiopian society i think that image would probably be a real one conflict which has looked more hopeful this year is libya because you had the formation of a new national unity government you had a road map towards elections but you still have the foreign forces there and you don't seem to have an agreement yet to hold those elections in december not you're not even got an agreement of what sort of elections they're going to be presidential or parliamentary or both are you worried the pro the progress you've seen this year could now unravel i'm worried about libya it's good that the fighting did not resume it's good that i feel that there is a kind of equilibrium that doesn't allow easily for a full start of the conflict as it was in the past but the truth is that we are not making progress in the legal constitutional aspects along for the elections take place i believe that we must make immediate progress at least on making some of the mercenaries leave but our objective remains the same libya must be a sovereign independent country there is no room in libya for foreign mercenaries or foreign troops the warlord khalifa hafta looks like he wants to be the president wants to run for president he's someone who clearly has blood on his hands he's been accused or some of his forces have been accused of war crimes should someone like that be eligible for high office in libya this is something the libyans need to decide and this is one of the things the libyans are discussing at the present moment and it is obvious for me that we should have as president of libya someone that would deserve the consensus of the libyan society that would be in my opinion the best solution will that be possible i hope it will i think libya needs someone that unites the country instead of someone that divides the country let's move to kobit 19 and you're aware that some parts of the world are getting back to normal they think covered 19 is over do you agree no coffee 19 is not over covered 19 has been a terrible demonstration of the failure of human solidarity this was a terrible ethics test that the international community has failed i've been asking for months for a global vaccination plan i've been asking for months for an emergency task force and the g20 that where all the countries that meta are in order to be able to double the production of vaccines and to guarantee an equitable distribution of vaccines this is not happening we have seen vaccine nationalism then vaccine diplomacy but we are not seeing people coming together and finding a common solution and this is a tragedy and unfortunately the covey has not been defeated the problem is we all know that the challenges we face cannot be solved by a country by country basis we all agree that we need multilateral institutions to address the common challenges of the world the problem is that our multilateralism has no teeth look at wilder's organization they cannot even get the information they need they cannot even do an investigation of a situation our multilateral institutions have as i said notice and sometimes when they have this they have not much will to bite as it is the case of the security council of course there's one global crisis that is worse than cobit 19. and that is the climate crisis you have the cop meeting coming up in glasgow in just a matter of weeks time and you've been talking about mistrust taking place between the developed world and the developing world do you think that could derail any agreement and how serious would that be for the world it can and it would be extremely serious and we must avoid it we must reestablish trust i think it's important that developed countries understand that they need to do more in support of developing countries namely fulfilling their commitments made in paris but going beyond that that international financial institutions need to be much more active in support to developing countries that support needs to be concentrated not only on reduction of emissions but also on what we call adaptation which means building resilience of communities of infrastructure helping helping countries resist to the impact that already exists in climate change and that we are seeing the vulnerabilities everywhere we are in new york even here we had some heavy rain and 45 people died in the region around new york i mean even the most important financial center in the world is vulnerable to climate change so it's time to the developed countries to understand that they need to also invest in adaptation in resilience in changing infrastructure in creating new uh forms of organization of societies in the developing world that lacks the resources to do so and finally it's important also that some emerging economies of the developing world but that are today because of that i mentioned big emitters make an extra effort because for instance with the number of coal power plants that is planned today in the world we would not only not reach 1.5 degrees or we would not normally be below 1.5 degrees of increase of temperature in the end of the center would not be below 2 we would be completely undermining the paris agreement so there must be an effort an effort from developed and developing countries to bridge the gaps of trust that still exist and to understand that each one must do more finally secretary general we've mentioned that your second term starts soon and it ends in 2026 by then the un will have had a man in charge for over 80 years how important is it that your successor is referred to as madam secretary general i think it's something that makes full sense and i have to say that i've done a lot in order to make sure that gender equality and gender parity is the i would say the symbol of this organization we have now gender parity in the 180 leaders of the us u.n system and in our coordinators around the world i have pushed for a very strong policy in gender equality there is only one thing i cannot do is to be a woman so i am a man but gender parity and gender equality are for me an absolute priority because gender equality is a matter of power and the matter of power in a world that is male dominated and with a culture that is male dominated and it is essential to change it antonio gutierrez secretary general of the united nations thank you for talking to al jazeera it was an enormous pleasure to be with you again you

Channel: Al Jazeera English

Views: 44,021

Keywords: Afghanistan, Al Jazeera, AlJazeera, Antonio Guterres, Interview, Taliban, UN, United Nations, aid, humanitarian crisis

Id: aj8e_ebZ3iA

Length: 25min 47sec (1547 seconds)

Published: Sat Sep 18 2021