Angmar Tier List - Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game | MESBG

[Music] welcome to another into the West episode my name is Charles with me today are Richard and Ian and here we have another tier list for you guys today we will be talking about the kingdom of angmar and we will be uh tearing all the heroes and all the Warriors from this list uh before we get started we just want to uh recognize and uh shout out our patrons um thank you all for your support you guys are awesome if you are interested in more content or other perks that we have please visit our patreon page Link in the description all right let's Dive Right into Angar so let's dive into the profiles and to start the witch king of Angar himself so straight to the top so we've we've done an episode covering him a long time ago back in season 1 he is such a versatile hero people who've played with or against this hero know that you can modify his might will and fate kind of customize it in the list building process he can spend however much points you want on him so he can fit into pretty much armies of all points levels and he can almost do anything as well he's he can be pretty good in combat you know he's a pretty good spellcaster he's also a pretty good support hero he's often in the conversation for being one of the best uh evil Heroes he's he's very much on the short list there and I would argue he's even better than the other list that he's available in so Beador and Mordor I I think just because of the options available in Mordor as good as he is you see Mordor list without him but then in Angar you know it's hard to Ally in and he's just so good in this list and he gets like extra bonuses like with the army bonus and stuff so it's he's as close to a must take as as it gets I think yeah I think unless you're doing it at smaller points values um and and with more of a niche list uh with like with this Army you might not see him but for the most part he's going to be in like every single list in some capacity he's going to be there with with the crown probably on the horse if not for nothing else than the just being able like a very strong command or compel Caster but also as like a secondary or tertiary hitter just because with the crown and on the horse he can still hit four attacks on the charge which is great yeah I think he's a he's an easy Legend I can see you maybe building uh Angar without him in like a special kind of build but you know he's the foundation and you want him most most of the time you're just too damn good he's he's kind of what all these other like Jack of all trades Heroes want to be but don't quite hit yeah all right and our next hero is the dwimmer lake we have a video ranking all nine named ring Ray and we do talk about him quite quite a bit in that one uh so check it out if you haven't already if you've seen that video we generally were not a huge fan of him uh he was amazing in the last edition of the game and he took a massive Nerf this Edition and um I I think I've only seen him in one list in one game uh out of like since 2018 since the start of this Edition so I always mix these two wraiths up probably because we don't see him that much but which one is he is he the one where you spend extra resources yeah okay so on a four plus he spends a will and on a four plus he makes you have to spend another point of Might will or fate right yeah and he's the one that has to go two-handed and has no might he has he's a good he's a decent Caster though and um I think 16 will I believe so slightly higher than normal yeah like 062 is that is that it yeah but he's he's essentially just a bad GMA right and like it's it's sad because the Special Rule is so fun it's it's a rule that I would love to see more of because those kind of rules challenge your opponents and adds more decision making it's not just like a oh my guy does this to you so you you your guys just becomes worse kind of like a shade effect but it's uh it's actually like a decision maker if it was I don't know if the role was like a little bit better because like a four plus isn't that great I don't know if it was a little bit more improved or if it was like you spend a whe and it activates for the turn be a lot better yeah so how it used to be is you didn't have to spend a will at all it was just passive ability at all times so it was borderline broken so if they kind of just like Ian said stuck in the middle you spend one will at the start of the the the turn um I think that would have made it like just Balan but because they made it on every single use that just you're just going to run out of will really quickly or you're just not going to cast many spells I think conceptually it can it's devast ating if you combine it with the other spellcasters that Amar has that we'll get into later like if you combine it with a paralyze or if you combine it with a shade if a hero had to use two M to to M up their roll you could kill Heroes really really easily but just his price tag like for what he does he's way too expensive personally I'm thinking I'm thinking a minor like I can see maybe a list working out if you're a really experienced player and you know the combo that you're trying to set up I can see him being pretty effective but you you kind of have to know what you're doing when you're taking him yeah it's a bit sad though because I feel like this profile fits in really well with all the other stuff in in Angar and it works well but it's just not very good right now this one was consistently either the uh worst or second worst uh rra on all our lists so I don't know I think if this is independent then I don't know what it is so I'll I'll throw a vote that way and plus the fact that we like we said we haven't even really seen it right so you got to be desperate to take him sure put him down there why not I don't it's not gonna more controversy I don't know I just think that high points if you can com combo him with uh like heavy spellcasting you could get his points back it's just it's got to be a very specific build but like it's it's it's hard though at high even at high points because you're probably going to go witch King and then you grab him and then you grab goulard that's like over 500 points just on Heroes and I know like Angar can afford to do that but then they're missing out on like they're not going to take any barites they're probably not going to get a captain because he's going to have to spend the rest of the points on troops oh I'm I'm thinking more of like a like a um list where he's the Bigg guy so like you take dmer Lake and then you take like two barow whites and then a shade or something and just go for the debuff stack but but like if you think about it he's worth like more than two barow whites so you're saying that it's making it harder to resist one barel white but if you're you add two more Barrel whites that's probably you're probably going to get it through as well right yeah like four barrel throwing a one die paralyze every turn next we have the tainted I think he's he's a solid option nothing too crazy um I've seen him here and there but you kind of have to build a particular list around it like a very specialized list that utilizes his ability so I would say fortitude yeah I'm I'm kind of leaning to fortitude as well I think like if you are going to take a second Wraith in the list you go you go for the witch King and then you go for him yeah and also it's kind of funny I think he's maybe the like one of the only rates that actually got a buff this Edition from last Edition in the way his Special Rule works because you get to choose to trigger it rather than it always being up right which is that's pretty nice but you know you got to be really careful because if you activate That Special Rule and then you're broken bye-by it Orcs the reason I don't think we see him a lot is because there are so many better heroes in in inar as we'll talk about in a bit being a list that you don't necessarily need a lot of M you can be in a situation where you don't care if your models don't benefit from HCK actions and that's when he shines it just again it's a very situational Special Rule where you're going to have to know when to use it and you're going to have to build around it a little bit but yeah I like him generally I mean at least if fits the Angar Niche because like they have terror everywhere and that's why they don't need a lot of Might like imagine having that Special Rule as like a Rohan player or something just that would be absolutely useless yeah okay so next hero we have gvar now we talked about him a little bit in our collab video with the noobs in the monster tier list okay so yeah I don't want to go into it too much because we've already ranked them in a tier list but I will say August 2023 there was a kind of a Nerf to him he was used as the example for flying monsters you know you can't really hide behind the the regular orc Warrior anymore he can be shot at with know in the ways so it's kind of significant considering like his biggest weakness is probably shooting so does that does that bring him down a level before I would have argued maybe he's above the witch king or maybe not but now he's definitely below I think it's a justifiable Nerf to to Flying monsters and flying creatures in general but like he's still great and I mean it does affect him a little bit more because he's one of the few ones that has like a lower defense he's only defense five but like the hero assassinating power that he has is still insane he's still a great great model is it more of a goulard Nerf or is it more of a cave troll buff oh yeah because cave trolls can still provide the in the way right yeah yeah so personally the FAQ is pretty recent so on paper I think that maybe it won't affect him that much like it's it's still a Nerf you're going to have to be more careful with him but with a 12in flying range more likely than not you'll be able to find terrain to hide behind right and still charge safely into combat it won't be as easy cuz like right now like the turn before the lines Clash you can set golvar like kind of in the middle of your force or something behind a couple lines and feel fairly safe and you're also in very Prime position to be like hey next turn I can hit anywhere on your line so the only thing is like now you're weaken positionally that you're forced to like let's say maybe go off a little bit more to the side behind terrain which isn't maybe the most optimal position and like it's more predictable where you can probably attack so that's that's the kind of Nerf that I'm seeing but honestly that's probably only going to matter at a very very high level play I I think it is a bit of a Nerf but it's not it's not going to make a huge effect on the way he gets played like he's still going to be amazing he's still going to be able to do things it just puts a little bit more of a skill cap on it than there was before which this Army kind of you know it it has a kind of high skill cap like you were saying before like if you get better at playing the game you can get better at playing this list and you can do a lot more stuff with it so I don't have any problems with that jumping up a little bit more we did do a full episode on boulevar with unexpected podcast member Matt Iverson so if you haven't listened to that one please go check it out our next hero is bder the hill troll Chieftain yeah and we uh we also tiered this guy in the same monsters tier list I believe we put him in Valor was it that's where I was going to put him this time no change I mean he can he can block olivar now yeah there you go mder buff I so this is kind of a controversial statement but he's kind of this List's version of a m caddy like I think he's the cheapest three might hero you can get in this list right or he's one of the only like two or three three might her you can get them list anyway right I guess you can get like a cheap wish king but yeah but yeah that's and so yeah he's got he's got a place but again there's like there's different builds he's I think he's more popular at smaller points because if you can't get gvar and all the other stuff but you still want something that can you know chop heroes in com combination with the witch King then he's he's kind of your man yeah correction we actually ranked him the top of fortitude oh he got that much better being able to block golvar they can use us as Cannon f one thing to note is that is not a spirit so he doesn't synergize with your army bonus uh he doesn't provide your Orcs with Terror and similar to the cave troll profile that we'll cover later what he has doesn't really synergize with the tricks Angar has even though he's a pretty decent profile I think the reason you don't see him that much is because there are so many better profiles that do actually do synergize with the army bonus and with the strategies common with B Mar we we can just blame it on the noobs they dragged him down I don't know I'm I'm actually thinking he might be in fortitude now for me well because of like the the not providing the army bonus thing that Charles mentioned but also you can get a fou beast on the witch King so if you want a secondary hitter that's like big he kind of does it better than bder and also berder doesn't have a two-handed weapon a standard cave trol does have a twoand weapon so standard cave trol hits like harder than him I mean yeah he has the advantages of having the might and a will point to resist but the actual raw damage isn't as good as a normal capol but I think anything under like 600 or under points wise I think he's very very strong I think that's the balance right like probably like above 600 he's not the most competitive option and you're probably almost always going to go govard like 700 800 whatever but under 600 like he's probably a better pick I've seen govar at like 500 500 and whatever the Angar is usually don't do that well because the remaining Army when you take golvar and probably the witch King you're just you don't have enough stuff I see your argument and I do think he he's a pretty decent profile I think it just comes down to there are so many options in angmar and arguably like better options and like what was brought up earlier why not just take more Barrel whites well you got to have a hitter you can't just take only Barrel whites I'd be happy with him in either one I think in Valor or fortitude he's like a high fortitude or low Valor doesn't make a big difference to me okay we can leave him there for now we we upgraded him from the other tier list next we have the wild War Chieftain now I think this this one is in my opinion underrated profile I I know some people forget that he's in this Army list but he's a pretty solid profile and I remember Richard you've brought him to a tournament a few years ago with him right at low points and that was pretty good no it wasn't and that's why I think I'm going to rate him not so high it was not a fun experience this was before the AOL Legion and I think he's good in that Legion but in Angar uh the thing is the mik like you're limited with the use and he only has two might so that's pretty big for like being like 80 points so he has two might he can only heroic move with wild Wars and that is a huge detrim unless you're playing pure wild Wars I think his stats are nice but when you take a deeper look into like the the might usage and he doesn't have cavalry charge or Monsters charge either so the three attacks is always going to be three attacks CU he's around the same points as a cave troll right like what do you think of using him as like a dedicated troop killer why not just take a cave troll he has the raw stats yeah move is nice he's fast yeah I I understand in assault on lothorian he's more effective because you have bat swarms because you have enrage Beast yeah that combo with him I don't know like the move from the war compared to like bder being able to move six like I think you'd still take B like almost every day of the week yeah cuz the the fight five and no strike is not really going to assassinate anything of value to be honest unless you do a channel transfix which hard to pull off these days or a paralyze but but then you're you're talking about three pieces right you you're talking about compelling out paralyzing and then running wild war chief out to get that kill there's other things that'll do it better I think I I I think I'm going to put him in minor and just leave him there I was thinking fortitude but I can see the argument for Miner he is strength six right so he does hit pretty hard if you if you want to have him munching on troops but Richard probably has more experience with Angar so if I I mean I I do like the profile and the stats and stuff it's not bad bad pick like I don't think he's like ruin your list or anything I just don't think it's a super strong one I I could go with like a low fortitude ranking to be honest fair enough yeah Okay so we've already mentioned this next hero several times it is the barrel white he's all right he's not great yeah yeah it's like it's only like the best spell in the game it's fine it's fine it's fine yeah I mean I kind of get why they haven't nerfed it because like it's the reason why Angar is competitive but it's I don't know I feel like people have stopped complaining about it three four months into the new edition the first little bit was definitely like oh wow Angar is broken but that's kind of tapered off but this essentially is like the essence and the soul of B Marin list like I think if you're you're playing Angar to kind of get access to this this spell because no one else has it whenever I see an Angar list without a bar white I usually feel the need to bring it up I know when when Matt Iverson came on our episode I believe he brought a list a p Angar list without a barrel white and I was just like shocked and I think Ian once wrot wrote an Angar list without a barrel White too it it's just this the paralyze spell is so good with um 12 slots to the Warriors for 50 points is also just super efficient when you're trying to hoard out in in in Angar list like we often complain about how like a minor spellcasters like this in other armies only have six slots like storm callers and Shaman and that brings them down a bit like he has those 12 slots and there's no detriment to your army so you could take multiple of these guys and not suffer in in your list building okay the thing about the slots is actually a really good point like if he was could only lead six I think it'd be a lot more interesting but no but like right now it's no competition right like between him and the next two Heroes the captain and the shaman like you you always just go for an extra Barrel light unless you really really want the barch that's the only reason he can still lead 12 he's got like so much over the shaman he's the same cost as the captain basically the captain can be a little cheaper depending on the War gear he's D7 two wounds yeah and he can leave 12 he activates the army bonus cuz he's a spirit hero which is big and then you get to the spell itself which is fantastic for shutting down enemy Heroes setting up what Angar does best which is assassinating Heroes like I mean sometimes you get those assassinations going off when like with a witch King doing a compel or an immobilized but usually you hit him with paralyze and then B Gard jumps it just one shots a hero yeah they're just automatically on the ground and they can't do anything they they can't even try to win the fight and force extra like resources or might out of whoever they're fighting kick him in when he's down yeah it's it's gross so I think easy Legend here I would probably even put him above go ofar just because like you take him in low and high points he's just everywhere 50 points it's insane even before you get up close psychologically it messes up your opponent already because are only 50 points most likely you're going to have more than one so when your standard big hero only has three will all of a sudden you're you're super like conservative charging into combat cuz you're like okay well I might be able to resist the first paralyze but he's got a second bar white like my hero might not do anything this game yeah the one part that they did were actually thinking about when they wrote that rule is only giving it like a six inch range but still it's uh it's nasty I'm okay with that that ranking okay next hero we have is the or Captain so or captains you can find them in many armies many legendary Legions their role in eggar is that they're the only profile with huor March so wait the wild War Chie does he does but it only affects um wild Wars so yeah essentially unless you're running an all while War army this is the only profile with York March Angar as we discussed with their weakness being a glass Cannon Army they're prone to shooting that's one thing that you can take to mitigate their weakness so that's why people take this profile that's why you see it but like we said throughout this video so far Angar has many hero options so depends what kind of Angar list you want to build whether you want to make movement and Mobility one of the tools you have in your army or not I would also say it depends on what war gear you give him too because he also can be like a a pseudo hitter right if he's on the ward he can take a pick and if he's hitting a u a paralyzed hero he can you know have six strength five attacks going into them on a turn so it's enough to kill minor heroes or small like two wound Heroes easily and one shot them so he's got a bit of Versatility that way he an or Captain I think I think he probably just goes in fortit stud somewhere yeah I I like the versatility of him we just talked about how good the barrel white is but I know at higher points it's like do you want your fourth bear away or do you want one or Captain I'm usually the type I guess to lean towards a more well-rounded option and go with the or Captain there so you know with the law of diminishing returns I prefer after the third Barrel White probably go with or Captain so he he definitely still has some use there and just a way to get extra might into the list without like I think everything else that brings might in this list costs at least double his points cost right so Ian mentioned earlier that you can put him on a war and use him as a hitter but I've also seen people just take him without any gear to you know make him like the cheapest might battery is possible and if you look at the rest of the Angar list most of your might is on pretty big like centerpieces and so if you want like just a small hero to do their heroic moves and and save the might on those big heroes this is one of the only ways you can do it and in I actually would put them in Valor I know we're kind of maybe going with 42 on this one but I think he's a Valor because I see him arguably more often than bder so I think there's multiple reasons to take him and and you see him quite a bit so yeah what do you guys think it is true I probably do take him more than burder yeah I think I think you convinced me Charles actually like he kind of earns the spot up in Valor simply like how often do you see our captains getting taken in in most other lifts not that often here he he does show up pretty regularly so yeah it's fair enough is is he in front of bder though I would say so the or Captain brings more utility that Angar needs because like ber brings hitting power in a herk strike that is in itself is not as helpful as a model with heroic March a model with with really cheap points of Might yeah I'm okay with that it's I mean they're they're different kinds of models right it's like one's a hitter and one's utility but I I see that argument and I personally I guess have seen and have played the orc captain in Angar a lot more so I'm okay with this next we have the orc Shaman so this model was featured on our worst Heroes bracket and he made it on our top 16 worst Heroes so you know knowing that we're we're not huge fans of this guy I think we can start by kind of referencing our um analysis on the barrel white the Angar Shaman is also 50 points so that right there is I think the main reason yes so he's got wither and immobilized right no wither and instill fear wither an ins right I always think yeah yeah he's so different from all the other ones I don't know like I I like the the profile that they made a shaman that doesn't have Fury and I like that it still means that Angar has a weakness to Fury so it's like it does have very obvious weaknesses the Angar or Shaman was your pick from from the bracket video yeah I know but like I still I like the idea of a shaman with wither like I like I like conceptually it just it doesn't it doesn't work that well in this list and and I don't know how much of that is a function of him being not great or compared to the barrel white being so much better for the same points cost I guess he has a might point where the barrel white has none but 90% of the situations would you rather have wither or would you rather have another paralyze oh well that's that's the problem is you'd always rather have the paralyze even if he does come with a and I think he also does he only lead six models right not 12 yeah yeah the barway just has so much going for it in addition I think you can mount him though oh yea yeah he probably goes in independent but I I don't think it's his fault he just needs some love and the bar white needs to get a little worse I think if the barow white didn't exist you would see this guy in a competitive list you would use him to combo with the other spells from The Ring Rays definitely does CU he does combo well against threats against gvar right because gvar is low defense but if the enemy Hero's strength goes down by a bunch then gvar doesn't care as much if he starts losing fights so like there is a little bit of synergy there that's true though he has three will and a cast on a three yeah the casting yeah if the cast was on like a two maybe and and for most Heroes you have to at least successfully hit it twice because at strength four like strength three is the same wound value right like there is definitely a build there where this actually works really well combined with the witch King the problem is the barrel weight just does the same kind of thing but better yeah it sounds like a pretty similar analysis of our U of dmer lake that we did yeah yeah yeah do we put him ahead or behind the dmer lake was the dmer lake in our worst Heroes night of onar was I would put him behind because at least the dmma lake you're you have like a strategy around it and I guess you would you could argue that you could surprise someone who doesn't know his rules very well the orc Shaman just there's simply a better Point foro hero available in the list yeah yeah it's it's not he doesn't really have any saving Graces besides a neat spell that nobody else really has and in our final anggar hero we have the shade this is a model that's known to be for a while nerfed every single FAQ it's been nerfed I think three or four times at this point it's the model that a lot of people say they hate playing with the most and I can see why much cursed much nerfed I think is it's it's probably right where it should be yeah like you can still make a build around this model and it could still be really good but there's only one specific build and it's not like last Edition where you're going to see it getting Allied into every single freaking evil army with two Fel beasts and then you cry yourself to sleep after that game it's not like that anymore it's so frustrating to play against but it's balanced I I I really like where it's sitting right now in terms of balance perfectly balanced as all things should be yeah I don't think anyone likes playing against the shade so I think no one was sad or that sad that it got nerfed so yeah I I definitely still think it's playable like Ian said but I think the combo of people knowing it's not fun to play against and it's not like super broken it doesn't give a lot of reasoning to play it unless you just really really like that play style but I I think it would probably sit pretty firmly in fortitude for me yeah I mean with the Nerfs you're forced to play in AAR only now and then also even in angmar you have restrictions now right so like you trolls and wars in this list I think also suffer the minus one I think just the cave troll cuz bder I think still has the Angar keyword okay so it's just cave troll and the two War profiles yeah I'd put him like top of fortitude I think as because I feel like you see him still more than like the double wraith builds yeah I think top of fortitude or bottom of Valor because he is still one of the main like three centerpieces right cuz most Angar armies you will see either witch King gar Shan or or multiples of those three so I think you could still play a really effective list around this profile and he's still one of the main like Strategies Main win conditions of eggar so yeah either High fortitude or low Valor for me okay let's move on to the Warriors so the first Warrior we have is the cave troll now this is a a profile that we also see in Moria uh however in eggar I believe it's it's quite a bit different so as we just discussed with with a shade he doesn't synergize well with the shade so generally you won't see them in the same Army but he does provide a little bit of hitting power when most of your army is typically Orcs strength three Orcs but what do you guys think about him especially with the recent FAQ change on targeting flying monsters I don't think it has any effect on whether you take a cave troll or not unless you're playing on like in a tournament that you know uh every board only has like two pieces of terrain on it I think he's just outshouted by like everything else because anything in this list you're going to spend that many points on you're probably going to want to get a hero in set with like heroic stats or some other Shenanigans dropping 80 points on like a troop in this list doesn't feel great I think in comparison with Moria the cave troll is much better in Moria in eggar I feel like shooting is a bigger weakness so when you think about how a troll is equal to what like 12 Orcs 13 Orcs it hurts your numbers a lot so I think most of the time I would take the 12 Orcs instead of the trolls so I'm trying to think of a situation where where you would benefit from taking a cave troll I mean maybe at high points and you you want to have multiple threats if if you don't want goulard to be like your only hitter you want like a cave TR on the flanks to hit troops and stuff like that that can be useful I I don't think he's useless but I I just think that he gets in the way of you trying to hoard out your your numbers a lot of the time he's always going to be a solid profile we've talked about him in the past before he's probably one of the only non-hero monsters that are playable but yeah like you guys said his role doesn't synergize really well with the Army list there's better assassins there's better hitters and then he doesn't really do much in the support role because he's not a spirit you know so he he's fine but definitely not a must take if he worked with the shade well I think it actually there'd be a really interesting build there but all can wish for I mean I think the Nerf to the shade was fine but I think the cave trol should just get the Angar keyword in the list right yeah like everything in the list should just get that cuz then you know an all monster list but you're fighting against that and most of your guys get minus ones that means like you know even though they're not named it's it's it's interesting I don't know but yeah he's probably somewhere around where the wild War Chieftain is like you see him but not a lot that's that's kind of what I'm thinking yeah I'm cool with that okay next we have the Angar orc Warrior so this was uh the warrior we were talking about when we were discussing the army bonus so basically when they're close when they're within 3 Ines of a spear hero in this army they gain the terror rule so since this is usually the backbone of your army you have dozens of them potentially could mean most of your army having Terror and with your army usually having harbringer that can be very deadly yeah I mean Orcs are already like a solid profile in the other armies that they're in and in this one they're particularly good they're actual Legends here well yeah if you do the The Troop Cent build where you just have a shade um and some other Spirit Heroes and and then just a massive Orcs they they actually do become quite scary but even in the more hero focused ones like you still have to take like a decent amount of orc Warriors I think absolutely the cheapness of the profile and and just the fact that they you know they can still hit defense five which is kind of and B fight three it's it's it's the perfect profile for this list for to allow you to get all the fun stuff that you want to take to to do all those combos I would say that the a average Army people try to spend only up to half their points on heroes in eggar I feel like you can cheat out of that a little bit and go above the half and it's because of this profile you're like okay it's 800 pointless I'm going to spend 500 on heroes or 550 because I know I can still hit the numbers they're great I don't know if I would put him on top of Legend I guess in in terms of popularity when have you seen an eggar without this profile so in that case it would be the top of Legend but how often would you say like they're the MVP and they win the game for you I think still Legend but maybe not the top yeah maybe at the bottom of Legend because I still think they're amazing and easily the best troop in this Army well yeah they're not they're not the best by any means still just like a humble or Warrior but just like we said the points cost and the combination works well with like list building for this so by virtue of that and then the army bonus and then the other bonuses available I think they do just pip into Legend yeah I wouldn't say they're they're a perfect profile like their shooting is pretty worthless this Edition they lost the access to uh orc trackers and now you know most AMR players I see they just don't even bother with bows and you know without Fury in the list their courage is still pretty bad so you know they have their weaknesses but when they're so cheap you you don't really care the next profile we have is the eggar war Rider so this is like the same as uh the standard War grer profile except with the yangar keyword so it's basically just an orc Warrior on on a wild Warg you know we talked about Mobility a little bit earlier what do you guys think about taking War Riders instead of like HCK March in Angar lists I think you might take both honestly but like not mass like you probably only grab two or three just just to have a little bit of extra Mobility but also to be able to cancel enemy hero like Cavalry bonuses um or to like Nerf enemy heroes or enemy C that are charging around but you know I think you're still going to see them fairly frequently in most builds it's the same thing as the regular orc Warriors right they're they're what 12 points with a shield 11 points base like they're still very efficient just to get a Cav in the list yeah I would say though they're probably a little less valuable than the orc Warrior just because if you're going just for Speed the next option we're going to talk about there's a more budget option and you can still get the 10-in move so it's not as much of a must take but then of course there's stuff that you can do with the war Rider that you can't do with the wild War you know like the dismounting and the charging other enemy Cavalry to mitigate their attack bonuses so I don't know maybe I would say like a fortitude Valor in between there I like the war Rider profile in other lists better um like I prefer them in in Mordor and Eisen guard inmar I just I would rather take the or Captain and like Richard mentioned the budget option while work I I'd rather take a few of those I don't know I I just think that war grer has kind of cut down on your numbers a little bit too like I don't think your list is necessarily inefficient if you take them but I would rather take wild Wars for Mobility I'm fine with them being in fortitude yeah okay difference good good enough okay we have the wild War next so we kind of just started talking about them they are the cheap option for mobility in this list their cost is just slightly over the cost of an orc and they provide the 10-inch movement uh n very impressive in combat you know there still fight three and so defense four but they do allow you to send models off to objectives and you know make traps for a pretty cheap cost oh yeah I I love these guys and I think they're better deal and their cousins the Fel Wars too when whenever you can get like a 10in model for like cheap cheap like under 10 points it doesn't even really matter what their stats are you know like I played the Spider Queen a lot and those broodlings like they have the worst stats ever but whenever you know you position them right you're just throwing them around they can do a lot of crazy stuff and same thing as these guys so they're just so cheap like they're a little bit more than a orc Warrior and then you get this super fast moving unit it has to be ranked pretty high here for me yeah the only thing that puts them down compared to an orc is their 40 mm base you know you're never going to use W Orcs as like your main battle line you know they can't be supported by Spears and they can get surrounded pretty easily they're not great in actual fight so you're not going to want to spam them out even though they are cheap but I think they're solid Valor okay yeah fine we can put them in Valor I mean like I know it's useful to have the 10-in movement models but I just feel like the wars by themselves like all they do is just die we said this list is vulnerable to shooting these guys are defense four like any bow wounds them on a five or better right and then their giant Bas size means once they get into combat they're going to get swamped and killed super quickly I don't know they're fine I don't think they're amazing but I I will bow to to being outvoted on this one a little bit I will agree that uh in the past I've used them in the wrong way and and that's how I've learned it where I've just thrown them into combat they're definitely not good in fighting and and and you're right like when your army is so prone to shooting you're not going to want to take too many of them but in scenario pools that are not kill the enemy I think you're they're going to be useful almost every game absolutely that's that is true uh I don't know maybe I just like the war Riders a bit better but yeah the mobility is still good still that definitely you still definitely going to take at least a couple of them or a couple of the war riders in every list you build pretty much final Warrior profile we have is the dead Marsh Spectre or what the Sentinel should be your high courage troops in the list yay yeah the these guys are very very crazy value because if you don't have like your whole Army as Fearless even if you have like courge four like your guys are going to be eventually just lying scattered random guys running all over the place you know if your guy has an objective like you know you can't trust that just the amount of like movement shenanigans that you can do like is insane but yeah I mean typical build is what between two and six of these guys probably just because they they they do end up eating into your points when you're already spending tons of points on Heroes but they got a lot going for them they got the the pull out is great their High courage is nice I think they even have Blades of the dead so they can they can actually wound things you know somewhat reasonably because you're going to have a minus one courage bubble pretty much Wherever You Are fighting on the board with these guys they're great but unless you're doing like a niche build like Richard was talking about you're probably not taking a lot of them but you're definitely going to want to have at least a few in there in whatever list you're going to be building yeah even with lists that have Fearless generally The Fearless is provided by a single hero or some kind of Shaman Angar has the power to just delete like a hero from the board and when they do that then the specters go to work for those that watched our lorian tier list basically all the negatives we said about the Sentinel the Spectre doesn't have those so he doesn't have the two attack that you're paying for and he doesn't have the Elvin cloak that you're paying for uh so you can have so many more of them that's almost the same but way better he's also D4 which isn't great but it's is he D5 yeah oh my God that's a huge jump above D3 q q the me the guy that she tells you not to worry about with [ __ ] man they got that Lake Town armor yeah no [ __ ] wait wait wait wait wait warri wear armor but after they become Undead it becomes heavy armor no no no that's why Newar doesn't have any heavy armor it's because everybody who wore it was at this one battle specifically they took all the good stuff and then they all drowned that doesn't make sense but okay what the I'm I'm thinking this profile's got to be at least Valor absolutely yeah it's probably top of Valor in Legend honestly like I think it's another staple of angai at this point the only reason I hesitate to put in Legend is yeah there there is a situation I brought up where like the arm whole Army could be fearless and if you can't take out that Target that provides a Fearless they could have limited use the other thing is it could be an army without very many good targets if they don't have like a banner or like a monster that you can f light away then they might not do very much especially if you only take one or two of them like if you're playing against like Goblin Town and you only have three specters like they they can move a couple goblins away but it's probably inconsequential cuz even um if we're talking about courage five list like with elves and stuff the the fact that you have harbinger of evil like the regular elves are solid targets now so I I would kind of be okay with this too yeah cu the way how fite works is you can't resist it because it's not a spell right and with an army that also has access to drain courage you could really bully Heroes into not doing anything yeah cuz most of the heroes if they don't have fortify Spirit they're going to be really hesitant to use will to resist a drain courage when there's huge hitting spells like paralyze in list yeah yeah I can also get to the point where if you get enough those drain coures off you don't even need to paralyze the hero because they're not going to be able to charge anything in your army anyway it's yeah that's or they're just going to spend the entire game wandering off because of the specters yeah yeah it's pretty brutal I think they deserve Legend so there's actually one profile that we almost missed and the end of scaring the sh it is gimble or Chieftain hands down the best here you can get for this Army at like 150 points I think at 150 points yeah that's important part if you're playing like minimize or something that the Aussies do this guy probably rocks it spam those Orcs out yeah so his rules are a bit strange because he is like a narratively driven profile right written for to fight Hobbits basically he's like basically an or Captain but you get the strike instead of the March um he's only fight three though and instead of the Fate point that the or Captain has he has a five plus save so yeah the five up save is is a passive right so is there any there's no way to get rid of that right besides like flowy yeah yeah I mean if if he keeps making those saves he he he'll keep living I guess he's like poent more durable than an orc Captain I guess if you save his like his might to boost up those roles but also he's cap at D5 so not really at first I would say take him for the heroic strike but at fight three heric strike it's like it's not good it's not consistent no I mean okay I mean so it is Angar and obviously anything hitting a paralyzed model is good but this guy mounted if he goes two-handed with his handed and a half mace against somebody who's on the floor like like he'll put out some damage but you know it's he costs 50 points and I think every time you're G to take a barrel white instead yeah and what we said about the orc Shaman who is also 50 points I'm I'm starting to think the or Shaman gets a friend in independent [Music] tier cuz comparing him to the barrel white again or in case in in this case the or Captain you're going to take the or Captain every time I think I mean no cuz barow whites can lead 12 damn it they're so good it's it's not so much that he is like an unusable profile but it's just that the or Captain and the bar white are in the list and they're just better yeah yeah though or captains fight four base which is just flat out better and it can piercing strike to stke five which you know it's not as good as a hand and a half weapon but it's like it's good enough yeah yeah to crack7 yeah you know if he had hero defense he'd actually be a pretty neat profile yeah the way it is now I mean he's got heroic challenge that's cool if you want to give your opponent a point a m or two or if he had three M he'd be a good might battery option in Nar yeah but then like risky because he's still two wounds zero fate yeah uh yeah just at that price point I mean how much is it or Captain mounted is with a shield is 55 yeah yeah I which which if you if you didn't take the shield it would be the same cost except the or Captain would have one fate I think he's pointed to be able to compete with an or Captain but it's just missing a little bit it's just not quite there yeah it doesn't synergize with Angar no I uh no I mean maybe if you're doing like the beasties list like that version where you're running like the war Chie around then he kind of makes sense but that's like more of a themed list and then you just you're bringing him so you have a cheap strike to just because to have one but yeah he's not he's not he's not doing a lot so looking at the tier list right now I'm actually thinking that dmer Lake should go into minor cuz I was thinking the other day like if you were to build a unnamed ring wraith with 16 will let's say he could go up to 16 will that's about 110 points so dmer Lake even if he never used a Special Rule he's only about 10 points overcosted like even if he valued his Special Rule at zero points so I'm like I just don't think he's as bad as these two are his casting values are the same as the normal wraith yeah except his uh black Dart is 12 in there are some rates that randomly have a 6 inch black Dart yeah I mean I'm fine with something being in like the seat here it I don't think it makes a huge difference overall just these two I think are at the bottom because there's no reason for you to see them while C is like inefficient but you can build something around them sort of tier yeah I'm I'm fine with him him going up there you think go ball is above the uh the shaman I mean it doesn't make a doesn't really make a difference I don't know they're both kind of a meme yeah yeah I feel the shaman with wither though kind of synergizes at higher points if you get other spells in there because the Wither can be really effective but when you're like threatening the paralyze your opponent's more likely just to let it go through and let it happen so it kind of synergizes better with the list whereas I can see that golfin b while is just like I can't I can't really see what he would bring to the list you're probably laughing pretty hard if gin bble like charges into a small hero like Madrill like he could easily just like BK in one turn and nobody's going to see that one coming but like yeah he's still pretty bad yeah Okay g and B comes in last on the tier list to be a shame that we if we had have forgotten him that would added a lot to this [Laughter] discussion all right so this has been our tier list of eggar thank you all for watching look forward to the next episode of into the w

Channel: Into the West

Views: 4,900

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Id: hgOKshs_k7A

Length: 54min 26sec (3266 seconds)

Published: Mon Oct 30 2023