An Evening with Karen Armstrong

this program is a presentation of uctv for educational and non-commercial use only you you Karen Armstrong is now a United Nations ambassador for the Alliance she is increasingly invited to speak in Muslim communities countries in 2007 she was awarded the Medal of Arts and Sciences by the Egyptian government for her services to Islam under the auspices of the prestigious al-azhar madrasah the first foreigner to have been awarded this decoration in the summer of 2007 she was invited by the Malaysian government to speak in the Kuala Lumpur even though her books are banned there and gave the Meuse lecture in Singapore she also spoke at the young presidents organization in Istanbul and later that year gave the ickey note address at an international conference on Islamophobia there in January 2008 she visited Pakistan where she gave lectures on Islam in Lahore Islamabad and Karachi to packed audiences Karen Armstrong was awarded the Franklin D Roosevelt for freedoms medal in 2008 and the Leopold Lucas Memorial Prize at Tubingen University in 2009 she's a trustee of the British Museum and a fellow of the Royal Academy of Literature in February 2008 she was awarded the Tezz TED Prize and is currently working with Ted on a major international project to create launched and propagate a charter for compassion created a line by the general public and for the general public crafted by leading thinkers in Judaism Christianity and Islam as well as in Hinduism and Buddhism this will be signed in the fall of 2009 by a thousand religious and secular leaders around the world we're very privileged to have Karan Armstrong here in Santa Barbara I should note that this is the first stop on an American tour promoting her newest book the case for God ladies and gentlemen please welcome Karan Armstrong thank you well what wonderful welcome on this beginning of my tour in the United States we're talking an awful lot about God these days now in previous eras before the advent of the modern period uh people knew that it was very difficult indeed to speak about God um they said you if it you couldn't really say that God was good what does it what does it mean to say God is good are we talk about a good meal and a good person ah but how can we apply that word to God who's not only good having one of it as one of his many qualities but his goodness itself we have no idea what it can be to be an omnipotent being they said God was not a being at all he couldn't even say God was the supreme being because that simply meant that God was rather like us on the same level but just the top of the series the end of the series um and Paul Tillich used to say that it's almost impossible to talk about God these days because I meet people immediately ask you does he ridiculous pronoun exist um and of course he said what's that question has been asked you've the whole idea of God as the symbolism of God has been lost are you like Thomas Aquinas the great Muslim theologians like Avicenna all the Maimonides in the Jewish tradition said you couldn't even say that God existed because our notion of existence is far too limited to apply to God and but now we talk glibly about God as though he were a kind of boss or a colleague we know his likes and his dislikes and we know you know what he how he would have voted in an election we we pray to Him asking him to cure our sickness or to save our queen or bless our nation and we expect him to take our side in a war even though our opponents are also God's children and also presumably the object of his love and care so uh and now many people find it difficult to believe that God exists that word belief I'll be looking at a little bit later it's changed its meaning over the years now in the tenth century before Christ the people of India India always being in the vanguard of religious change developed a form of way of talking about the ultimate in a way that I think is Mark's authentic religious discourse it was called the bra mojo competition and it would begin with the Brahmin priests who were going to take part in it by going out they'd go out into the jungle and there they'd fast and they would do preliminary yoga exercises to put themselves into a different frame of mind you really can't talk about God in the same way as you discuss a business deal or have an argument with with a friend you have to put yourself into that more receptive mode of mind that we have that we adopt quite naturally when we're read reading a poem or listening to a piece of music awakening those more intuitive aspects you can actually measure with on our brain machine well when they put themselves into a state of suitable consciousness they were then returned and the competition would begin and the object of the exercise was to define the brahman the Brahman being the ultimate reality way beyond the gods in the nascent Hindu tradition and our so a the Challenger would start and he'd give a very poetic and esoteric and a complex beautifully calibrated definition of what he thought Brahman was and his opponents would listen and they'd have to respond to his his definition and come back and take it further and further and the winner was the person who reduced his opponents to silence and it was in that silence that the Brahman was present the Brahman was not present in the wordy and brilliant definitions that were being uttered but in that moment of stunning realization of the impotence of speech because we human beings push our minds it frequently into a state of transcendence the were a word which means to climb above to get beyond what we can know our minds segue very naturally into transcendence it's one of the peculiar characteristics of the human mind and in fact the desire to live constantly in relation to this transcendence is probably the defining a human characteristic we we humans are meaning seeking creatures and when we no longer find value or significance in our lives we can fall very easily into despair dogs as far as we know then spend a great deal of time agonizing about the canine condition or fret about the afterlife or what happens to dogs in other parts of the world but we do we this is both our blessing and our curse and we also seek out experiences that touch us deeply within and lift us momentarily beyond ourselves at times when we feel we inhabit our humanity more fully than usual and we we do this in art in music in sport and religion was one of those activities music is is is it an obvious example music is a very cerebral rational art it's based very closely on mathematics close relation to mathematics very very complex into relations of form and yet it goes naturally this is what reason does when we push it beyond itself in into a form of knowing that goes beyond logic and discursive proof and we have that kind of knowledge everyday a kind of knowledge that you can't put into words and so and music has been intimately related always with religion which has always expressed itself best in terms of art poetry architecture dance and music rather than in logical discourse scientific discourse and in the old days people knew that there were two ways of arriving at truth and the Greeks called them mythos and Lagos Lagos was what we needed to function successfully and efficiently in the world we've all it's science we've always needed science even if only to sharpen an arrow correctly so that it meets its its prey we need science when we organize our societies or the economy we need Lagos to think correctly about the external world and so Lagos speech must correlate very exactly and accurately to the external world or it won't work but Lagos has its limitations and people in the ancient world understood this they understood very well that it's a if your child dies or you experience a terrible natural catastrophe certainly you want a scientific explanation to know why this has happened but you also want some help in negotiating the turbulence of your grief and dismay and terror and for that people turned to mythos myth which was not stories about the gods often or about heroes but you were not intended in any way to be historical but they are it's been myth has been formed called an early form of psychology and people noticed that Freud and Jung turned very instinctively to myth the ancient myths when they were developing their modern search for the soul those stories about gods threading their way through labyrinths and fighting monsters told people how to manage the internal world they too had to enter the labyrinthine world of their psyche and fight their own demons and this is the point myth is essentially a program for action it is telling you what to do and how to behave now during the Scientific Revolution starting in the 17th century we myth Vica became discredited because science was beginning to achieve such spectacular results and we started thinking that the only way to achieve truth was by empirical proof and this doesn't work for myth and our notion of religion became notional we started thinking that we could prove God's existence Newton sort of believed that very definitely and that we we had to believe a whole lot of truths in fact we often call religious people believers as though that's their main activity but this is a modern development and very eccentric you don't find that same emphasis on belief in either Judaism or Islam they are religions of practice because myth is telling you how to behave if you don't translate a myth into practical action either ritually or ethically the myth remains incomprehensible and we've we lost that sense of religion being a form of practical knowledge the result of Spiritual Exercises and certain ethical behavior there's certain things that you can't learn simply notionally you can't learn to drive a car simply by reading the car manual or studying the rules of the road you've got to get into the vehicle and learn how to steer and manipulate the brakes I've never learned to drive a car so I know you are cooking again is something you got you you can't you can't you can't become a good cook simply by reading recipe books nor can you become a good dancer or a swimmer or an athlete or by studying you have to get into the pool and learn to float the knack and if you're going to be a good dancer or a gymnast you have to practice hour an hour day after day and that is telling us that and what happens is that you can if you're talented and you work hard enough you can learn to do things that would have seemed initially impossible when we look at the way a dancer or it leaps into the air it seems inhuman but she has simply are used a human skill and honed that skill to achieve an unearthly perfection and grace religion is hard work and the doctrines of the faith the myths of our faith even myths like the incarnation or the Trinity were telling us what to do and if we don't do the spiritual exercise involved we don't get the meaning of the doctrine and doctrine becomes opaque incomprehensible now today we rather reverse the thing first you have to believe in a whole set of doctrines and then you start putting it into practice not much point in living a religious life if God doesn't exist ah but that would be for people like the Buddha or even Jesus this would be putting the cart before the horse um first you practice then you begin to understand what it's all about now belief let's have a look at this um the word belief you believe in in Middle English used to mean to love it was related to the German liebe beloved uh or the Latin libido desire um it mental if it had connotations of loyalty fealty commitment in in Shakespeare one of the carrot character in the all's well that ends well says to the young hero believed not by disdain the hero is in love with it you know is is being forced to marry a very lowborn girl believe not thy disdain that means don't entertain it don't play with your disdain don't let it take root in your mind now believin was belief was used by the King James people when they translated the Bible into English to translate the Greek pissed Asst uh which meant commitment loyalty engagement involvement trust and the latin court credo which came from chord oh I give my heart um when Jesus is asking his disciples for belief he's not asking them to believe that he's the son of God he's asking for commitment he wants people who will sell all they have and give it to the poor who will follow him and be prepared to still live rough to devote their whole lives to the kingdom to live compassionate lives to live like the birds of the air and the lilies of the field trusting in the God who is their father piss distrust uh he's he's not asking for doctrinal ascent um st. Anselm in the 11th century I write wrote a very famous prayer in which he said credo ought in telegram that is usually translated I believe in order that I may understand and I always understood this to mean that first you had to bludgeon your mind to accept a whole range of doctrines and then that act of intellectual submission would mean that you um wouldwould would begin to understand something as a kind of reward but Anselm is saying something else and you see it quite clearly in the context of that that remark Kreider what in telegram should really be translated I engage myself I involved myself and then I'll understand and unless I so involved myself he goes on to say I will not understand you have to do faith in order to get it and by reversing the whole thing we've made it very difficult for ourselves the Quran for example has not much time for a sort of Orthodox theology it causes an MA self-indulgent guesswork about matters that nobody can be certain of one way or the other but which makes people quarrelsome and stupidly sectarian now when now the fact that we are so literal minded these days makes things very difficult for us nobody before the 17th 18th century took the first chapter of Genesis as a literal account of the origins of life it may be people that there are there are several creation myths in the gospel in in the Bible's they can't all be true cosmology in the ancient world that is a creation story in the ancient world was not giving us information about the Earth's origins cosmology was remember the scientist Icke illogical imported myth a cosmology was basically therapeutic as a creation myth would be recited when people felt the need for an infusion of the enormous power and force that had somehow brought something out of nothing and so they would recite these stories at a deathbed or when they were starting a new settlement or building a boat when they felt the need for creativity some of the creation myths tell you what you have to do in order to be creative yourself others speak about the immense effort that is required to much to run your society and to keep cosmic and and cosmic order people were very concerned about outrunning the earth's resources in the ancient world how right they were and the fact they've first chapter of Genesis was written in the 6th century while the Israelites were in exile in Babylon and it's a gentle satire on Babylonian religion which must have been bombed to the exiles bruised spirits and it's also its vision of a cosmos where everything has its distinct and clear place must have been consoling to a displaced people but we know that other exiles at this time much prefer a quite different cosmological story which has Yahweh fighting sea monsters like other middle-eastern gods in order to create a viable world of viable cosmos and as late as the 16th century a Jewish mystic Isaac Luria are created an entirely new creation myth they bore no relation to Genesis in any respect at all and this was a terrible time for Jews they were had been at that time expelled from one region of Europe after another and this new creation myth of Luria's really reflected that arbitrary world that frightening world that they now inhabited better than this orderly cosmology of Genesis 1 now if someone today created a new creation myth they'd probably be held to pay you know you can't contradict the Bible in this way but this myth became the basis of a mass movement among the Jewish people from Poland to Iran it was the only theology at that time in the Jewish world to win such universal acceptance um st. Augustine said that if a biblical text was found to contradict science you had to find an new interpretation of that text you had to interpret it allegorically now st. Augustine can be called the founder of Western Christianity is revered and by Catholics and Protestants alike and that principle of Augustine's was common in Europe it was the recognized way of reading Scripture right up until the 17th century and right on the door at the dawn of the the Scientific Revolution you have Calvin saying very angrily that there are some frantic persons and I quote who are trying to impede science and are disturbed that some of the new scientists are contradicting Scripture for example said Calvin he had doesn't seem to have heard about Copernicus he doesn't mention him but he said look Pete some of you're worried because the Bible says that the Sun and the moon are the largest of the heavenly bodies whereas now we know that saturn and jupiter are much bigger ah and there's but this sight but but Calvin says the Bible is not teaching us anything about science it has nothing to tell us about science if you science he said is very useful and it must not be impeded by these frantic persons and if you want to learn about cosmology or astronomy go elsewhere now what happened was that Newton in the 17th century felt that he'd found a proof for God's existence the immense the towering genius of Newton who discovered adumbrated the whole social this whole solar system the intricacy of which he said demanded an intelligent creator an intelligent designer who was and I quote obviously very well skilled in mechanics and geometry now this is the kind of thing that would have made Sir Thomas Aquinas turn in his grave Thomas finest said yes when he tried to prove God's existence he said yes you can say that something happened to brings everything into existence we don't know what that is are we and originally the doctrine of creation out of nothing which was first formulated by in the Christian world only in the fourth century are the Curt the conclusion was that the creation could therefore tell us nothing about God because it came from nothing and how matter which comes from nothing has no relationship to the God that is being itself um now oh but the church people and the the churchmen theologians who were so impressed by Newton and so lured and attracted and drawn to the ideal of this absolute cast-iron certainty that they adopted this scientifically based theology and made Newton's God and later William Paley's intelligent designer absolutely central to the Christian vision and they lost the older habits of thought that primordial thought because Christians in they had evolved their own form a Brahma diya competition to make us realize the inadequacy of our speech when we talk about God and to segue into silent or we lost those older habits of thought and so when Darwin came along people were thrown for a loop and and didn't know it wouldn't have been a disaster Darwin I you know as st. Augustine would have said right find a new interpretation then to scripture this this must keep abreast of science so we've got ourselves into a mess and but really I think we just need to get back to the idea of religion being practice above all above all all the world religions have insisted that at the core of the religiosity at the court the authentic test of any spirituality is compassion and the Golden Rule my favourite story is the story of rabbi Hillel the older contemporary of Jesus who when asked by pagan if he could recite the whole of Jewish teaching while he stood on one leg said that which is hateful to you do not do to your neighbor that is the Torah and everything else is only commentary go and study it a remarkable statement no mention of the existence of God the creation of the world Mount Sinai the Exodus nothing that we associate with Judaism but the Golden Rule if you do that you get the whole of it Jesus made the same point when asked what is the greatest commandment and the first person to formulate the golden rule was Confucius 500 years before Christ he was asked by his disciples master which of your teachings can we put into practice all day and every day what's the central thread that runs through all your teaching and pulls it all together and confucius said xu likening to the self look into your own heart discover what it is that gives you pain and then refuse under any circumstance whatsoever to inflict that pain on anybody else do not do to others what you would not like them to do to you and if we did that every second of the day if every all day and every day not just doing your good deed for the day as we often say but all day and every day if every time we were threatened to say something vile about an annoying colleague or a an ex-wife or a nation with whom were at war and then said how would we like this said of us and assisted in that moment we would have transcended ourselves transcended the ego that holds us back from knowledge of the divine and if we did it all day and every day we would live in a state of what the Greeks called ecstasy's which didn't mean an exotic trance our ecstasy's means stepping outside standing outside standing outside the prison of egotism and we if we were doing this all day and every day we wouldn't have time to worry about the existence of God we would know what God was though we would never be able to express it in rational terms so um I think when we made God provable we made atheism a distinct possibility because science isn't a religion isn't an mythos and logos us that they're separate are they have different jobs to do they are not in conflict um and there was no conflict between science and religion until the late 19th century we had the odd blip with people like Galileo but um in during the in Scientific Revolution religion and science were in love with one another and tried almost to marry and to mate and in a way that wasn't helpful um and so basically once religion is not about it never was about telling us things in giving us information about things that we could discover by our own natural reason it was about helping us to find a way of living with realities for which there were no easy answer with pain mortality bereavement sorrow suffering and to live in that in relation to that creatively as you see Jesus doing on his death not in agonizing death and despair having time for a kindly word with one of his fellow victims having time to make provision for his mother um and owning his death living dying in a compassionate way and science can help us to cure our sickness and it can help us to diagnose a sickness but it cannot help us to die well and it cannot help to assuage that moment of grief and terror and disappointment when we get our the bad diagnosis for this we had that religion is hard work it's not just a question of bopping into church and singing abuse it requires an effort all day and every day but it can be done we can map my charter for compassion that was mentioned it's really about restoring compassion to the centrality of the religious life and I also feel it's absolutely essential for our world religion should be making a major contribution to one of the chief tasks of our time that is to build a global community where people can live together in harmony and respect and um if if but it often religion is seen as part of the problem so let's bring compassion back to religion let's remember Hillel and Confucius saying this is the essence of religiosity not believing abstruse doctrines but putting what those doctrines I tried to do this in my book tripe trying to show how what those what the action that those doctrines like Trinity and incarnation women and indeed creation were meant to inspire Anna and then we discover at a rich enhancement of our being just as a dancer discovers new capacities by exercising physically and taking her body people into extraordinary as dimensions so to religious people who have practice compassion all the time experience an enhancement of being that is the natural proof if you like for the reality of religion of what we call God and I close my book with this lovely story about the Buddha a one day he was sitting in a clearing meditating and a Brahmin priest came along and said to him he'd never seen a person with such composure and strength and control and serenity and he said are you a god sir no said the Buddha are you are you an angel a spirit no said the Buddha well what are you and the Buddha said look um this this is not something that she it's not a formula but I've discovered a new way of being human of living activating all aspects of our humanity that normally lie dormant and so when the Brahmin priest said well who are you then he said think of me I'm awake he had a whoa a whole lot aspects of his humanity that we often don't tap just as there are parts of our brain scientists tell us that we're not using and I think that is the secret of religion there's no point in having barren arguments about evolution but to live in a compassionate way and to create a more compassionate world and an enhanced spiritualize humanity that's what the Incarnation means that you cannot think God without thinking human and you cannot think human without thinking God thank you I'm just wondering if we could have morality without religion yes ah yes your why do we need the religion ah well religion isn't just about morality religion is you I don't think you can you need to be certainly don't need to believe in God in order to be good but if you want um I don't know transcendence I think is is is is part of what religion is about that as I was saying earlier that sense that you are inhabiting a different dimension of existence the idea of a supernatural thus the supernatural is a modern idea uh before the modern period people were at great pains to point out that what we call Brahman or was also Atman the deepest core of every single creature incarnation as I've just said was about talking about the fusion of humanity and the divine so but the idea of a deep of cultivating a deeper inwardness exploring what we call in another metaphor the interior world that is that is to why we need religion it's an art form religion in many ways it's about the Ritz about the discovery of meaning and you know you can be a moral person without having any artistic leadings at all I really haven't heard any atheist that started a war really um well I did I star Lin didn't do so badly he didn't start a war but he did happen to murder quite a large number of people I think most and you just had two questions most of the religiously articulated violence that we are sadly witnessing now is largely politics most or we call fundamentalism is often a sort of a religiously articulated form of nationalism or ethnicity and the religious bias religiously articulated violence that we are seeing now has mostly taken root has begun in regions where warfare originally a purely secular conflict has become chronic the Middle East a typical argument about a land on both sides defiantly secular Zionism was originally a rebellion against religious Judaism and the PLO ideology was secular but I after as its Fester's it festers it festers as same in Afghanistan another region lost to violence a religion therefore gets sucked in and becomes a part of the problem because violence and affects everything we do it affects our fantasies and our aspirations and our relationships our daydreams and it effects our religion also so basically every single one of the world traditions that we know now that out took root began in societies like our own where violence had reached a at an appalling level and they were all in the recoiling from the violence of their time and promoting the compassionate ethos as a means of countering that miss Armstrong it seems to me that religion as we commonly understand it in the world is the problem that most religious leaders what you are suggesting that this is God is not something of which we can speak it's a transcendental it's an existential experience hmm I don't know many religious people that speak that way now that's that's my religion is a problem that's that that is my point there's there vit like art religion is difficult that you don't always do it well not everybody who takes piano lessons ends up sounding like Vladimir Ashkenazy and religious leaders and this is a vast generalization are often politicians monkey but religious politicians if you like and the politicians are not known for their lack of ego and it's II the problem is ego what we're seeing a great deal is a religion to back up identity ah you know it makes me who I am and all the rest of it and we use God a bad image of God an inadequate idea of God to prop up our own beliefs um you know the Crusaders went into battle crying God wills it when they murdered Jews and Muslims this is an idolatry I creating an image a God in your own image and likeness rejecting all your loathing onto another an imaginary being idolatry I so this is this is bad religion or that's a bit sort of not very kind as it it's unskillful religion as the Buddhists would say and so because religion is religion is difficult to do well and people think it's easy or they use it in a facile well they use it to prop up their identity it's it's it's it's losing its loses its valency but religion is part of what we do one of the first you know as it's one of the first signs that you have of you most sapiens sapiens as they say coming into being are is evidence of some kind of ritual and so it is something we do so trying to get rid of it it's like trying to get rid of art are you going to get rid of all art or drama just because some people write really bad plays no the thing to do is to try and help people to create better plays what was the first thinking that you wanted to leave the nunnery what are you actually asking what no I was just saying that no worthy by religious order sent me to Oxford Oh to because I was going to be the obviou was that I would become a teaching nun that I would teach in one of their schools and my order was a very progressive order and it had been sending nuns to Oxford University ever since women had been allowed to take degrees and in fact my convent was the first home as it were of what eventually became my college sedan's College so I went to Oxford and I for the first half of my undergraduate career I was a nun and then I had a breakdown I collapsed I couldn't go on I it was a minor breakdown I mean I was I didn't have to go to hospital or anything but I was quite sick and it became apparent both to me and my superiors that this was I had to go it wasn't right for me and I think I'd known it for a long time but it was very sad I didn't leap out joyfully I try I part of the breakdown was that I didn't want to leave at all I was very frightened of leaving I thought it would be easy I knew it would be easy and I was right it was awful and for about six years I existed in a state of grief rather like a bereavement or a divorce and then I thought I'd finished with religion altogether but my opera series of further career disasters I found myself writing books about religion and that's another story I would urge or people like to apply your brilliance to the problem we have in the Middle East because it's very upsetting and I'd like to know what's going on with this temple they want to build and please somebody explain it all yeah well I've written about those things already you can look at my history of Jerusalem for example to find out about that temple etc so I think this well I am engaged in this kind of peace initiatives throughout both the Middle East and the Muslim world and that's largely something you have to do and again practice rather than just keep writing it means going and talking to people tried to break down prejudices trying to shift people's positions move things in people's minds and that's I spend a great deal of my time on that on those kind of activities and okay my church is having the privilege of hosting Bishop John Shelby Spong and he likes your series in February and uh I thought just as one religious luminary on another would you have a few choice words oh um John Jack oh he's a dear friend of mine um Jack's pong is great I think um he's a little bit of a literalist himself I think he reads his scriptures very little literally and it's still slightly stuck in that mode but he's done valuable work in dismantling some of the more really valuable work in dismantling some of the more outrageous things people are asked to believe but now the next thing to do is how you build it up and when we are I've asked him that he says that's your job morality without religion is the worst form I think of fundamentalism you do this for SAP oh I doubt that that's bad that's unis that kind of religion where we're just reduced to fear it's extremely unskillful and it reduces us to infant infantile behavior and that's why I think the obsession with the afterlife for example you know with you can wreck your religious life because I was obsessed as a child about going to hell you know this threat of hell and you know hanging over me and this is not the way to encourage creativity or adulthood or and basically it's about ego a religion is supposed to be about the loss of ego the transcendence of ego not endlessly fantasizing about its eternal survival in optimum conditions so I was just wondering if prayer originally would have been categorized as part of the mythos or the logos especially like communal prayer Oh amid mythos and and what you call communal or we say communal / where I come from commune liturgy ritual crucial but unfortunately in our societies we've become very wordy in our prayers you know instead of the silence or rituals that give you some space we're endlessly telling God that he created the world and that we are miserable sinners and as though this may have slipped his mind and I there's a little bit in pass it in Passage to India do you remember when mrs. Moore goes into the caves and here's the home and and confronts the nothingness a nullity of life she says she can find no help in poor little talkative Christianity and I think we need somehow to get back to the idea that words you get you're right there that's an interesting point that if we are if we transmute our prayers into too much Lagos where we're sort of bargaining you with God and asking for this and that and the other and not enough using words in order to push ourselves into silence into silent or and wonder then we might be losing the plot because ritual is supposed I mean do like any theatrical experience where which can lift you up with music and moment give you intimations of something greater that is what ritual like theology should be and it should what a theologian has said that theology is speech that has become silent and ritual should do the same to his prayer should do the same to us you you

Channel: University of California Television (UCTV)

Views: 48,412

Keywords: Karen Armstrong, religion, Islam, Judaism, Christianity

Id: ftuw-kZ8fac

Length: 55min 51sec (3351 seconds)

Published: Thu Jun 17 2010