Ammonia: The missing link in the hydrogen story ?

right good morning and welcome to this your active online event titled ammonia the missing link in the hydrogen story which is kindly supported by fertilizers europe my name is fedeximo i'm the energy and environment editor of your active and i will have the pleasure of moderating today's discussion now allow me to introduce today's topic with a confession only a few weeks ago i had absolutely no idea that ammonia could be used to carry hydrogen or even that it could be used as a fuel in its own right my limited understanding of it was that it was used in the production of fertilizers and that was about it but as this discussion on hydrogen now picks up at the european level it's probably worth taking a second look at ammonia and explore the opportunities it offers as well as the challenges it faces in the eu's drive to decarbonize the energy system so to discuss this topic today let me welcome tudor constantinesco principal advisor at the european commission's dg energy jutter paulus a german green mep who sits on the parliament's environment committee david herrero fuentes from fertibaria a spanish fertilizer company and buried himman from maersk the danish shipping company welcome to all of you and thanks for joining us today we'll start this conference uh with a short opening statements from the speakers and then we'll move on to a q a session that will also include some questions from the audience and let me also point out that we have prepared a series of online polls for the audience so watch your screen we'll be sending you questions over during the conference if you can take a few minutes to answer we'll then take a bit of time to explore uh the implications right i think that's all for me to do constantine the floor is yours now you thank you very much thank you first of all for the for the invitation and i have to say i'm very pleased to to see this interest uh in one of the areas for for hydrogen let me start uh just briefly to put this into the contest of the the context european level it's absolutely the green deal the green deal with the objective expressed by our president on the line to have by 20 30 carbon emission reduction of 50 to 55 and this is something more ambitious than we had in the past and i think everything comes actually from here this is the root of many developments and many opportunities we are going to have because what this means is that instead of postponing a number of actions after 2030 to reach long-term recarbonization which we have already analyzed before we have to take action now and to do more investments in in the next years and doing more investment in these next years it's also what it helps the recovery and the green deal is actually helping the economic recovery which happened now to be so important because of the health crisis and in this context of course we need to look at all the technologies and all the options the commission came recently in july with two communication one on energy system integration and somehow almost derived from it on hydrogen because hydrogen is one of the key enablers for this energy system integration or whatever sometimes called secular integration in in the strategy we clearly put a focus on renewable hydrogen and it scares it if we want to achieve long-term diagonalization this is essential and we noticed that while electricity now is uh only 26 of our final energy consumption by 2050 will be 50 but still or in the range about half of the final energy consumption will be in the form of gases and liquid fields and it's important to decarbonize them as well these gases and liquid fields and this is where hydrogen plays a very important role and all the fuels derived from hydrogen and in this respect uh ammonia is definitely one of them and it's not only one of them in this respect but it's also one of them for the fertilizers industry currently about eighty percent of the hydrogen of the ammonia produced in europe is used by the fertilizer industry so it's it's a is very is a very important sector and where hydrogen can support de facto decarbonization in the hydrogen strategy we point it to the various actions we need to take in in terms of promoting renewables in terms of boosting demand and scale up production in terms of developing a supportive framework and market rules uh in in this in this field on research and innovation but also on how to position europe internationally and definitely ammonia finds a place in this as i said first of all we identified this in in its role to support decarbonizing the fertilizer industry and i have to say that ammonia represents almost half of the use of hydrogen today so it's one of the most important uses and we need to take this to account and this indicated in our strategy is also one of the first priorities in uh upscaling the demand for renewable hydrogen so another area identified is for shipping and ammonia is important for shipping and for maritime applications in particular for long distance where it can be competitive but it's also important as an energy carrier in itself and it's important as energy carrier to transport hydrogen at long distances and it's also important to store hydrogen and the opportunities ammonia offer for storing large amounts of renewable electricity it's uh quite high and it's something which deserves further analysis and also further action in this respect and we are uh trying to to compute this and to work on these opportunities so i think uh we identified ammonia quite clearly in in the strategy on the hydrogen strategy and we see big opportunities uh while it's clear that a lot of actions will have to be taken and you see part of the complexity is that the energy system integration means we have to take actions on all the parts starting with renewables of course because this they will be at the root of all position and decarbonization of the energy system this is just to introduce the topic from from my side thank you thank you very much tudor let me now pass the floor to judo police for some introductory remarks judo police you have the floor now yes thank you very much i hope you can hear me actually thank you very much tudor for pointing out that we need and firsthand we need a lot more renewables in order to be able actually to um deploy any alternative fuels because as you said hydrogen stands at the at the first step um of any alternative fuel and we need much more renewable electricity in order to be able to produce green hydrogen because um the way hydrogen is produced today mostly from fossil fuels we have a lot of co2 um emissions stemming from hydrogen production and when methane is used as um as a base substance we also have the methane emissions of the pre-chain and methane is much more climate detrimental than co2 the factor is about 87 on a time period of 20 years so we must phase out methane use in hydrogen production as soon as possible i have looked at ammonia as an energy carrier for two three four years now looking for how can we actually transform our energy system needing chemical carriers of course for certain uses and i would like to shortly look at the at the chemical properties of ammonia ammonia is corrosive ammonia is toxic ammonia is a flammable gas and it's very harmful in the environment it has alkaline properties of course and we have a second challenge at ambient temperature and pressure it's gaseous so it's not so easy to store ammonia in um in any fuel tanks or something as it is with liquid energy carriers so we have to look at how do we actually store it will we apply pressure like nine times ambient pressure to keep it in the tank or will we liquefy ammonia through cooling where we need about -33 degrees celsius today we have approximately two or three percent of fossil fuel consumption going into ammonia production mainly for fertilizers as has been said um so the good news is that we already have the technology and we already have the production facilities for ammonia so that production could be ramped up quickly and of course we should also look at alternatives to the harbor bosch procedure which needs a lot of energy and when we ramp up ammonia production for energy uses we should maybe also look at maybe alternative um alternative catalysts which have been in in research and development for quite a while let's come back to toxicity at workplaces in germany 20 ppm parts per million are permitted and when people are working in places where ammonia is used that's of course especially chemical plants and the good thing is that it has a very strong smell so people are more or less warned when ammonia is set free but still regularly people are hurt through workplace accidents although we have very high security standards we have very well skilled workers but still as it is so harmful to lung and eyes we still have those accidents and that would be especially um where we should put our focus um whenever we try we are thinking of applying ammonia uses to other sectors i'm thinking of course of shipping where um during my research um zamarupater for the shipping admissions file which will be voted on in plenary next week um i spoke to quite a few researchers but also to ship ownership operators and they said well we want an alternative fuel which does not endanger our sailors and our workers they are not used to handling toxic chemical substances um by default so they would have to be skilled there would have to be employed um workplace security options on ships for example and also imports where of course we would also need an infrastructure that makes it possible to actually use ammonia as a fuel you cannot use the the bug fuel um stations you cannot use the lng terminals because ammonia has so different properties so these are technical color challenges which would be present if we wanted to deploy ammonia as a fuel on a large scale um and i had something else sorry yes of course we would also need the pipelines or other means of transport in order to bring the ammonia to those places where it would be needed as an alternative energy carrier this would also need a lot of investment the energy density of ammonia is much lower than that of carbon fuels for for example if you compare it to gasoline it's about 50 percent approximately the same as methanol but um in opposition to methanol it does not contain carbon so it's easier to use ammonia as an energy carrier for hydrogen because you don't have to have a carbon source for that but at the same time of course we would have to put much more research and development in developing a fuel cell technology for ammonia which does not exist at um at an industrial scale there are some pilot projects going on um because what we don't want is to produce toxic nitrogen oxides to the um through the combustion of ammonia we are talking about nox um in a lot of um in a lot of areas when it comes to road transport when it comes to ship transport and if we want to switch to ammonia as an energy carrier to phase out fossil fuels we would have to make sure that we are not um we are not going into very high nitrogen oxide emissions so i've tried to map out a bit the difficulties but i want to really um emphasize that we should look at them at ammonia as an alternative fuel especially for the sectors which cannot be electrified such as long-haul transport shipping road transport even and we should not rule it out due to the toxic properties but we must make we must have a strategy in order to handle these i firmly believe that ammonia should be part of the game when we talk about alternative fuels and also i believe that we should that the fertilizer industry should not count on selling everbore fertilizers as the nitrogen and phosphorus cycles of the planet are already so much disturbed through our wide application of fertilizers so it might be a business opportunity for the fertilizer industry to go more into alternative fuels and i call on you do some research and development on using ammonia as an energy carrier be part of the solution thank you thanks judah uh it's been a bit of a long introduction but at least you covered probably most if not all of the challenges uh let me turn now to david herrera fuentes for some inter introductory remarks go ahead david thank you very much fred i'm extremely honored to be part of today's panel and i'm looking forward to discuss about the potential role of ammonia in the energy transition but first let me take a first second a few seconds to introduce myself and the company to the audience i'm i'm spanish i'm civilian engineer by education i've been working for fertilia for the last 20 years currently i'm the chief operating officer of far tiberia fertilia is a spanish fertilizer company running assets in spain portugal and france and we are very proud to serve the european agriculture and industry with our innovative range of products and services we strive every day to develop and provide a smarter and greener fertilizer and producing there in a sustainable manner today going to the point the fertilizer industry produces and consumes up to 50 percent of all the hydrogen produced every year in europe the hydrogen is further converted into ammonia which in return is our building block for fertilizer production almost 100 of this hydrogen is generated today by the steam method reforming technology using natural gas as fish stock for every tonne of ammonia being produced by this method between 1.7 and 2 tons of co2 are released to the atmosphere more important the european industry has already adopted all the energy efficiency measures that are technically available and economically efficient so we are among the most efficiency among the most efficient industries worldwide therefore going deeper into the decarbonization means we need whether to avoid emission by changing the feedstock the green ammonia concept or capturing them the so-called blue ammonia but you will be asking yourself why ammonia is so important for the energy transition is it only about discovering emission intensity for fertilizer production the carbonization of ammonia production does not only imply a significant reduction of today's co2 emissions ammonia is a basic carbon and sulfur free energy molecule this feature together with a unique set of properties enables ammonia as one of the most promising carbon free energy carriers and fuels for this energy transition moreover and this is an important point we in the fertilizer industry have a vast experience over 100 years in its safe production liquefaction storage and transportation just to give you some data every year almost 20 million tons of ammonia are traded and transported by sea train or truck finally there is already a worldwide storage infrastructure and transportation network there are more than 120 ports worldwide with ammonia storage being cryogenic this storage so i think that this is a very good starting point as european fertilizer industry we are excited with this opportunity and committed to play a key role in the development of carbon-free ammonia and low-carbon fertilizer production indeed there is an ongoing effort in developing all the carbon-free ammonia value chain with demonstration projects in several countries both in ammonia production and in ammonia use as an example i can mention the project recently announced by fertivia together with ever drawing in spain this project with a 20 megawatt electrolyzer based on solar energy will be on a stream by the end of 2021st and we have the potential to replace up to 10 percent of the total ammonia output of one of our sites however to move from demonstration to commercial we need a decided firm and continuous support from the authorities and policy makers today the manufacture of green or blue ammonia is not economically feasible when compared with conventional ammonia in order to change that and speed up the early adoption by our industry we need a set of minimum requirements and policies that allows the construction of a solid business case first we need to include the role of ammonia in the strategy route maps and policies for the european energy transition second we need to ensure long-term level playing field between european producers and importers third we need to provide enough funds to finance the transition from conventional to carbon-free production fourth we need to make renewable energy and hydrogen abundant and affordable and fifth we need to develop the standards and certificates for the production storage transportation and use of carbon free ammonia if all these conditions are met we are confident that low carbon ammonia and fertilizer production will become a reality in europe sooner than expected creating attraction for other industries to follow and allowing our continent to lead this transcendental challenge well i think that i have extended all the time that i have allocated so i will be very happy now to discuss with my colleagues and answer to all of your questions thank you thank you david and let me turn now to barrett hinneman from mask thank you very much and first of all i'd like to also um thank you that we can be a part of this discussion today which i think is a very important discussion and i'd like to introduce um this from the merce point of view i mean we are one of the largest container shipping companies in the world operating about 700 container vessels and we have set the ambitious goal for our operations to be net carbon neutral in 2050 and to reach this goal we have set a roadmap of 60 relative emission reductions in 2030 before reaching neutral operations in 2050. we also have it as an ambition to have a commercially viable net zero ship on the seas before 2030. we are well underway on this roadmap with 41 relative emission reductions today and we are actually also the first container shipping company offering co2 reduced shipping to our customers today through our eco delivery program and we will continue to work intensely on energy efficiency measures for emission reduction but to really reach net zero emissions we need to transition to alternative and sustainable marine fuels and to give you an impression i mean for us this transition to alternative marine fuels it is a huge undertaking many of our container ships are 400 meter long which is more than three football fields we are one of the world's largest buyer of marine fuels and we use 10 to 11 million tons of heavy fuel oil each year for deep sea shipping energy density as it also has been pointed out before is a very important parameter for alternative fuels and after an initial investigation of a broad range of alternatives we are currently focusing our efforts on biofuels alcohols alcohol lignin blends and on ammonia we do not consider hydrogen as such as a viable fuel for deep sea shipping due to the low energy density which makes storage of the required amounts not feasible but the eu strategy for green hydrogen is of key importance to us since the available the availability of the green hydrogen will be key as a feedstock for green methanol and ammonia and other downstream products ammonia as a future marine fuel has promising perspectives it has an energy density that makes it a realistic option for deep sea shipping as it also has been pointed out already i mean for vessel operations engine safety aspects there are still developments and issues to be solved and we do expect good progress on maturing the technology during the coming years as well as progress on regulatory frameworks as it was also already introduced currently most ammonia is produced from natural gas but for the future we do see much potential for low carbon ammonia such as especially green ammonia blue ammonia i mean for the economic viability it is of key importance to close the competitiveness gap and for this we see a two-fold approach i mean on the one hand reducing production costs by technology maturation and scale up but we also do see that support schemes for carbon neutral fuels are necessary to close the competitiveness gap until they are competitive and as has been pointed out i mean ammonia is already today produced at scale and traded and transported as a chemical but the use of ammonia as marine fuel as such will ex require expanding the entire value chain from production to transport and bunkering developments in vessels engines fuel systems as well as safety certification regulatory frameworks i mean we do see great possibilities and i'm very much looking forward to discussing this important topic today here thank you very much barry for this introduction about the potential of ammonia in shipping we can start the q a now and um my colleagues will launch um in a moment as well the online poll for the uh for the audience so we kindly ask you to take a look at that it's um it's a multiple answer uh questions so uh tick the boxes and then we'll have an opportunity to discuss the results later on now let me start the the discussion maybe with a fairly basic question to all of you there's been quite a lot of hype around hydrogen in the past few months but there wasn't much talk at all about ammonia in this context at least i haven't heard much about it even though i was paying attention to that so why do you think this is the case is it simply due to ignorance about the properties of ammonia and tudor constantinesco maybe you can start tudor do you hear me yes we can hear you now go ahead okay perfect thank you actually i wouldn't say it was neglected and if you look at the hydrogen strategy all the important options for uh for ammonia were considered first of all as i said is for for the fertilizer industry and we acknowledge that and we know that ammonia is from this perspective important it's important for the energy system as a whole because currently about five percent of the world gas consumption goes in production of ammonia and also ammonia is responsible for about 660 million tons of co2 emissions per year which is equivalent of all cop emissions of france so it is significant it is significant and and therefore uh for us is important that we know that half of the hydrogen produce guarantees the world also goes into production of ammonia as therefore if we manage to have more renewable hydrogen we'll have also more lineable ammonia and the carbonite then what i was mentioning before first of all it's uh it's about the fertilizer industry which otherwise may be difficult to decarbonize but then of course for the transport which was also which was also mentioned and as an energy carrier and the distances of more than 2500 kilometers ammonia becomes maybe the preferred energy carrier to transport hydrogen even by pipelines this becomes more competitive and still the pressure and the pressure at which we have to keep ammonia is something which makes it more attractive plus of course the energy density which is which is better now there are some aspects related in particular to environment and which were pointed out and which safety has to be always a priority but i think we have by now enough enough expertise on this now this being said i think it was not deflated it will be definitely an also an alternative fuel for for for the future and we look also on a system of guarantees origin of certification for a particular renewable and low carbon hydrogen which should enable to be a a supportive tool also for ammonia as it will be for other alternative fuels yeah thank you and if it is i can maybe try to find more arguments okay thank you very much tudor let me turn now maybe to the other speakers uh judo police the reasons you think why there hasn't been that much talk about ammonia is it because of all the challenges that you mentioned okay um i think it's it's a mixture of of different things how long have we actually been talking about alternative fuels that has not been very long obviously especially in those sectors that could be interesting for for using ammonia as a fuel and of course talking of shipping again um it was even an accomplishment so to speak that in some regions um the bunker fuel cannot further be used due to the sulfur and nitrogen oxide emissions and those sectors where ammonia is interesting um have hardly been addressed in the last year so the the search for an alternative fuel um has just begun and for too long i think we have deluded ourselves in thinking that we could use biofuels um on a large scale but we have seen what happened with the blending mandates where we have detrimental effects on biodiversity in indonesia for example where palm oil is produced in order to be um to be fed to our cars using the the so called e e5 e10 um gasoline or e7 um diesel i'm mixing the the synonyms i'm sorry but still the biofuel delusion has ended just recently i think and we still haven't managed to face those non-sustainable biofuels out and this will probably not happen until 2030 according to the current renewable energy guideline directive so the surge for alternative fuels has only just begun and i think that is the reason why we have not seen so much development there thank you thank you very much uh juta so if i understand correctly the uh we we better get it right this time and learn from the past mistakes david herrero fuentes maybe a few thoughts from your side why do you think there hasn't been that much talk um until now maybe about ammonia as an energy carrier or or as a fuel i think that tudor and judah has uh have already pointed out some some reasons uh ammonia was always there but to me it's more natural and logical i mean we've been developing the hydrogen strategy and the ammonia is not in competition with hydrogen ammonia comes to complement the the hydrogen value chain is as the title of the conference the emission link or link that is needed for this hydrogen strategy to happen and the ammonia will found its terrain in some specific applications we are discussing today about marine and authentic fuels and other applications like the carbonization of isolated iceland or many many different applications where ammonia can find it's it's used as an energy carrier a renewable energy carrier so i think that as long as we develop the strategy and we deploy and implement this strategy and going deeper into the carbonization ammonia will become a reality it's not very important that we did not talk very much in the past thank you thank you and let me turn now the question to barrett hinman i mean it seems to be maersk is looking at a range of solutions to to decarbonize uh maritime fuels uh do you believe ammonia is is the strongest of the candidates that you're looking at uh for the moment we believe that ammonia is uh one of the strong candidates but i mean uh we are looking at uh several options and um and i think it's it's important to realize i mean it is a huge transition and deep sea shipping i mean there is not the silver bullet there's not the easy answer or a an obvious candidate where the transition would be easy i mean we are looking at ammonia we are looking at alcohols i mean there are i mean some challenges that are across those fuels as to how to get through the transition phase when they will be significantly more expensive there are also challenges specifically related to ammonia as for example safety aspects or storage aspects so so i would say it is one of the candidates we are pursuing it uh intensely but we really have to say how see how this plays out and and what our feasibility studies show to see and which options we will pursue in the future all right thank you buried um let's turn now to the uh to the online poll uh that we did uh with the audience while we were all speaking um we asked the audience whether or where they thought ammonia would make most sense [Music] would it be for energy intensive industries maritime shipping chemicals or don't know well 50 percent thought maritime shipping is the area where ammonia holds the most promises then energy intensive industries with 20 chemicals with 14 and don't know 14 um tudor maybe you could comment on that what are your views about these different uh choices where do you think um it is the highest potential do you think like the audience that transport is has got the highest potential yeah i transport definitely has a very high potential and offers big potential for ammonia but not only transport as we said before most of the ammonia is currently used in the fertilizers industry and we don't see so many other options so it's essential for the fertilizers industry for maritime also it's important and we see a big potential there as well there are also other applications let me tell you also for for energy storage and just three uh big tanks of ammonia of 20 000 cubic meters of ammonia could actually store as much energy as 1.8 million batteries stationary batteries installed in in homes so we will need for the future energy system both centralized and decentralized solution and we know that the distributed generation the distributed solutions including on storage for example will play a more important role but we'll need a mix we need the mix and from this perspective ammonia can play an important role as an energy storage medium as well so there are a number of applications where we see it playing an important role and to play this important role essential is also to bring the cost of green ammonia down and that means the cost of renewable hydrogen down and this means reducing capex but even more important is to reduce the cost of the raw material for this hydrogen renewable hydrogen which is electricity price so it means to have more renewables in place and to be able to produce low cost renewable hydrogen which is the enabler and which is a raw material in turn for ammonia production and for decarbonizing all these applications and playing a role in the energy steam stem for storage in the carburizing carbon intensive industries in particular fertilizers but also for marital applications as as it was uh emphasized also by the paul and by the speakers thank you judeopolis let me turn to you now about the areas where you think ammonia has the greatest potential do you believe like the uh the audience that it's it's maritime well you get a sort of a biased look at um at different options when you have looking at one sector um for very intensely for the last month when i was um working on the on the file on co2 emissions from shipping so of course my first my first view would be maritime shipping i'm not sure whether the the storage issue is as as important or as viable as tudor has just lined out i think the race is still not run a lot of people are exploring how hydrogen could be stored in for example salt caverns um which we have abundantly all across europe and which would be probably a lot um cheaper and also more energy efficient than converging the hydrogen into ammonia first so yes i would see it in maritime transport and of course also in order to replace fossil based fertilizers but i would like to point out as this has just been said that we need lower electricity prices when you look at newly built facilities renewable electricity is already the cheapest electricity that you can get we have seen prices of below 1.5 per kilowatt hour in portugal in germany when you're building a solar plant um not on rooftops but on on on land for example next to streets or railways we we have we are seeing prices of around four cent per kilowatt hour and these are all well below any newly built fossil fuel plant already and um equaling stock exchange prices for electricity so i think that's not the main barrier the price as as such but we have to see which obstacles do we have besides the price and i think that's something that the commission should really look into where individual member states have erected barriers for the more um in order to prevent a more rapid deployment of renewable energy for different reasons let's put it very diplomatically thank you thanks judah we'll actually look at the barriers uh that will be the the question in our next uh online poll let me turn before that to david herrero do you have views as to which sectors are the most promising when it comes to using ammonia or are you sort of agnostic as fertilizer industry about this no i mean i think that already tudor has mentioned that which are the the the main applications potential applications for ammonia one for sure is decarbonizing the fertilizer production based on renewable energy second i would say that maritime transportation and other lawn heavy transportations are very good candidates and we will be very happy to share with the industry with all the value change our experience in safety our safety standards and environmental standards to to avoid any any incident or or accident we have a long track record of uh no no no safety incidents regarding that and uh and then the ammonia can be used for sure as an energy carrier indeed when you look at the full value chain of ammonia when it's used as a fuel and you compare it with hydrogen ammonia is indeed more efficient that hydrogen because we have to consider that when you are using only hydrogen and not converted it into ammonia or other chemical you are losing a lot of energy in your refraction or compression in and and it's used back to energy so there are many potential uses of ammonia and this is the reason why we think that ammonia can play a key role in the energy transition in europe and worldwide thank you david let me bear with you uh for a second a question about um you know if we assume that everything goes according to plan in a way and you know ammonia gets more and more used for these different types of applications that we've heard there will be inevitably some interest from from companies outside your usual world of fertilizers maybe some big oil and gas companies will become interested maybe in in investing into that and they have probably bigger financial means than you have in the fertilizer industry so how do you see this playing in the in the coming years do you see potentially increased interest for ammonia do you see this as a brisk um or more as an opportunity i mean uh this is a very interesting question uh today as tidal mentioned before and as i mentioned before we we don't have a business case unless we have a decided support from authorities and policy policy makers when we talk about changing and shifting for conventional ammonia to green ammonia we are talking about very figures of capex but also the raw material the cost of the raw material and it's not only about the cost of producing renewable electricity in in the countries about all the regulated costs that turns around the electricity transportation distribution and use so first we have to have a business case so we are not in in that in at that moment now for sure in the future if ammonia becomes a a key chemical for for for energy industry we will see probably the entrance of other players and to me personal this this will bring many opportunities and for sure some risk that we have to deal with but i prefer that feature with no carbon that the current one thank you thank you david uh let me turn to barrett hinneman now with well the the question that we put uh actually to uh the participants uh online what do you think are the main uh barriers currently uh for ammonia to act as an energy carrier or or as a transport fuel is it regulatory certainty or uncertainty is it the financing aspect uh is it technical or operating costs what is your view from from your end yeah i mean uh my view is that there are some uh challenges that uh hold true for um several candidates for future marine fuels and also some challenges which are specifically to ammonia and i mean one very general challenge for this transition is that um that also the business case was was already mentioned in the discussion and in the beginning at least i mean these fuels they also um green ammonia they will be significantly more expensive than fuel oil and and so we have to address how we really can go this transition i mean how we are in the process of engaging our customers to go that journey together with us also investors i mean to to see how we can get that transition to happen and that is not specific to ammonia then there are safety challenges i mean also questions about vessel technology the whole bunkering infrastructure needs to be in place i mean yes ammonia i mean it is transported in ammonia tankers today it is also stored at port but there are still some transitions to go from there to being actually able to bunker at ports and to both have the infrastructure and the technical procedures associated with it and also on the regulatory side developments will be needed so so we do see a range of challenges and many of the technical and safety challenges that yes we can make progress and we can find solutions and we have some starting points to do that but we also do need to address i mean that how these fuels can be pushed out into the market and how we can use it in a yeah technically and commercially viable way okay thank you barry let me turn to tudor now maybe for a quick comment on the results uh of of the poll so according uh to the audience the main barrier for green ammonia to act as a hydrogen carrier is technical or operating costs that 41 of those who answered said that was the main challenge and then just next um with 25 percent comes the regulatory certainty or uncertainty and then closely behind the financing aspects trudeau what does that inspire you regulation is a concern but clearly not the main one it seems yes i think uh it's it's fair to say that we need to handle all this kind of buyers and on regulation is where we can act at most and this is what we're going to do we need more research on a number of cases and we need also more standards and this is in the process and this is what we have to do uh at the same time yes the technical aspects have to be clearly handled and the aspects related to safety the vast facility to efficiency the aspect related to all the conversions which sometimes are implied so we're referring for example to to ammonia as an energy carrier for transporting hydrogen but we lose uh energy on both ways so the general email lose up to 20 percent in 25 percent if we have hydrogen convert ammonia and again hydrogen so for for all these things it's clear we need more uh efficiency and this means more technology more research and more demonstration on the other hand of course all the regulatory aspects have to be to be handled and this is important not only for ammonia but or as alternative fields as it was mentioned before so it's clear that we enter into a new era which is more complex and all these technologies will have to find and all these fields and alternative fields to find their place in the market and it's a multitude it's a diversity which we have not seen before this may things may be a bit more complicated but we have also to see in what sector but also sometimes in what regions what makes more sense where the business case can be built where are the biggest opportunities for certain solutions for certain fields and at the end to try at least at european level but also globally to put all these solutions together in such a way that they can deliver and contribute to the overall energy system to the overall transition and in terms of financing because this was also pointed quite quite important will try on our side to to support and all the member states and industry to support through research but also to support in the context of recovery to to find the most appropriate solutions and also the solutions which will help actually jobs and growth in this period and bring the modernization which is required along the whole energy chain in in in this energy transition and which will be important for uh successfully and having all the consumers all the citizens on board in the end of the day and also producers and consumers at the same time together for the diversity of these solutions so it is uh understandable and i as a the result of the poll i think and we have to to work on all of them let me bear with you uh just a second because um i mean you said more research is needed but time really is of the essence there i mean if you look at the the climate change uh challenge something needs to be done very quickly so how does that fit in are you expecting anything significant to happen this decade or do you expect the results of the research and all the challenges that we heard to be overcome during this decade and then time for the hydrogen economy really to start kicking in after the 2030s is is that basically what the commission has in mind in terms of the time frame no you're right you're right that the time frame is indeed extremely important and this is as i was trying to refer before the the essence of the green deal to make this more investments now in order to avoid stranded assets later on to avoid assad and to avoid blocking effects on solutions which are not sustainable for the future this is indeed the essence now speaking about particularly about hydrogen uh things have evolved uh during the last couple of years and it was mainly due to the research that we succeeded through the programs we have the commission run mainly through to the field since hydrogen are taking to have electrolysis evolving in the last 10 years from a scale of 10 kilowatts now to 10 kilowatts and one in operation and 20 under construction and just now for this year we are going to prepare a call for the first 100 megawatt electrolyzer in the world so you see it's it's a scale advancing very fast and at the same time the costs have decreased so far in the same decades the costs have decreased with 60 percent and we expect this decrease of cost of electricity to decrease equally over the next decade so there are areas in which we can start now scaling up and that's why the targets we have in in in this respect in the hydrogen strategy with six gigahertz by 2024 and 40 by at least in europe by 23 so there is this scaling up already taking place but of course there are other areas in which there is more need for for research and particular on aspects related to safety security and environmental when we speak also about ammonia but it's on the other hand the fuel which we handle since uh since so many years and there are industries quite experienced we have to take this in into advance into account and take advantage of this expertise plus what need is to have the standards developed for all the applications where they are not yet developed but this has to go this process will go in parallel and where we can already deploy we have to deploy the technologies where there is more uh need for demonstration we try to move fast on it in order to deliver for 420 for 2030 and last but not least of course in this process the regulatory framework will have to evolve as well and to reward more the low carbon solutions which contribute to the objective thank you tudor let me turn to jutapolos uh now for maybe a few words uh on the time frame aspect uh i mean as a as a green politician you'll be particularly sensitive to the to the emergency of tackling climate change but here we're dealing with the technology where more research is needed so what are your thoughts uh there uh as a politician as a lawmaker about the time frame involved um of course as green i always say things are moving too slowly and we have to ramp up our our transition [Music] speed of transition very much um i would like to shortly come to the regulatory certainty because if for example we would say um we will not have um bunker fuel consumption and use in the eu after 2025 or we will have a um binding quota for alternative fuels with a co2 emission below zone so much gram grams per transport work or however we may put it in in maritime transport at a reasonable time frame i mean we could not deploy some something like that in 2022 we all agree on that but if we give industry the certainty that we will only accept um climate friendly for example maritime transport in 10 years 15 years whatsoever then we will actually um foster innovation and development because if we say well we're waiting for innovation then we will start regulating it must be the other way around when we start regulating and say okay we'll give you a reasonable time frame but you have to move then things get going and i i firmly believe that the speed can be ramped up we are um for example when it comes to battery electric vehicles we have been seeing very low numbers for quite a number of years but when you compare for example in germany the numbers were out last week one in 100 cars was battery electric in 2018. two in 100 cars were um battery electric in 2019 and now we're up to eight in 100 cars being battery electric in 2020 so we're just at the beginning of this growth exponential growth rate and i think every technology can be um can be fostered and can be supported like that it may need support schemes i agree with um with barrett here but i still believe that by putting strong regulation in place and making it making it clear to market players this is what we will accept in 5 10 15 years then we will actually get things moving and i have great confidence into our researchers and or also in our industry to actually deploy the necessary technologies thank you jotter let me turn the same question now to david herrero do you have any views about the the time frame the sense of urgency do you do you feel that there's an acceleration um within your industry uh in terms of putting together the necessary uh research or investments that are needed to make ammonia happen as an energy carrier or as a transport fuel i mean the the ambition of the of the of europe regarding the carbonization demands that we really move very quickly and i think at this time uh moving to commercial and to be very honest not research or or or demonstration for sure research will be done during the commercial escalation of of the different projects there are different challenges technical challenges like capex or efficiency that we all will only be overcome once we start implementing more and more green ammonia and green hydrogen capacity there are other challenges like safety which is the same the the safety standards already exist and they only have to be adopted and expanded to all the ammonia value chain or the environment where there are already technical solution existing technical solutions to tackle the nox emission coming from ammonia combustion for instance so i think that being technical challenges important to to deploy the hydrogen the money strategy having a favorable a regular framework not only with restrictions but with all also with support and and strong and enough financial support will be of key importance if you want to have a enough speed in the adoption of these technologies uh to to to to get to the our goals in the car organization thank you very hidman maybe a few thoughts uh on the need to speed up uh things what would you say you know from from your side you said you had these targets for 2030 2050 is there anything that could help speed things up yeah i mean we are speeding things up very much because if we can if we back calculate from our 2050 and 20 30 goals then that means for us that in the coming years we really need to get clarity on which fuel options are viable and really push i mean one feasibility studies to to find out how how we can go about realizing that so so finding the right solutions and intensifying that work is is very important and then as i and others have mentioned closing the competitiveness gap between the fuels finding schemes for that and then also engaging with investors with our customers i mean to to make sure that that we go this journey together and to make sure that that we can have a vessel on the seas that is net carbon zero and that is uh commercially viable at the same time i mean those uh we see as key measures and as it was pointed out a key role for regulator regulators to ensure that these new fuels that they are really pushed out into the markets once they are available and can be used thank you barry let me turn now to the audience and i picked up a question uh there from daniele violato he's asking um about ammonia as a fuel to decarbonize aviation apparently rolls royce is working on that tudor we haven't spoken about aviation at all is that something the commission has looked into as well look we don't speak indeed about aviation uh now but it is here that uh we looked in in the role of hydrogen for aviation and we started to look into this and there are already good projects and for aviation for the time being we only have the biofuels and you know we promote advanced biofuels but we will need synthetic fuels as well synthetic fuels based on hydrogen and this on renewable hydrogen and this is something which will have to look also for the aviation sector because uh there are no many other options to to to decarbonize this sector and again we'll look at the technologies under the fuels in a way which to be technology neutral but also to see what fits best and what alternative fuels would make more sense but again renewable hydrogen will be if you want the the raw material for many of these synthetic fields judo police let me turn to you about this question on aviation do you see there's some potential i must admit i haven't seen any studies or technical feasibility analysis so i haven't to be honest i haven't thought of it i always thought that aviation would be depending on liquid carriers which um can be transported um in in the air without a lot of risk and um especially as we would have to to keep hydra uh to keep um to keep ammonia at under pressure or under at low temperatures i think that that's a real challenge in aviation i've only to be honest uh me personally i have only thought of um liquid fuels like methanol or synthetical kerosene which of course is still much much more um needs much much more energy to be produced and also needs a carbon source so i would be very interested in seeing studies on that because um of course aviation is one of the sectors that that is extremely hard to um to get get uh free of fossil fuels thanks david herrera maybe a few thoughts on aviation is that something that you've been looking into at all uh aviation for sure need also an alternative fuel with uh carbon free i think that ammonia could play and be one of the candidates ammonia can be liquefied and storage at the atmospheric pressure at a moderate temperature of minus 33 degrees centigrade so i mean that would be technically feasible to to to store liquid ammonia in in a plane and use the boil off and evaporate the ammonia to to combust it so i mean is technically can be studied can be studied from the feasibility point of view and the ammonia for sure could be a candidate for ammunition right i think we're now reaching unfortunately the end of this online conference maybe we'll close now i'll ask each one of you to maybe pick one or two points um that or one or two messages that you would like the audience to take away when it comes to the use of ammonia as a potential energy carrier or hydrogen carrier or even as a transportation fuel uh tudor constant constantinesco let me start with you if you had to summarize your main message today in one or two points what would it be i think i also learned the interesting stuff today and it gives it we have a diversity of technology a diversity of fuels for the future what is important is to to have a common low carbon threshold to have a certification in place to have a system of rewarding the uh different fuels including ammonia for clean ammonia for its merits and contribution to the carbonization and to ensure that there is a level playing field with the more carbon intensity solutions not to discriminate against a green solution so for this it's important to have this system in place and it's important to have all the various acres involved this would be something also very important to have the industry to have the research community to have the various stakeholders and regulators uh engaged in in supporting the most effective solutions where they make most sense and to accept this diversity of solutions and to accept that we have to work on all of this together and to make the energy transition not only successful in terms of the carbonization but also in terms of competitiveness and affordability thank you tudor due to police maybe a few concluding thoughts from your side what your main message would be today well the main message is of course which which i put it at uh as for a statement nearly everywhere where i speak please stop please stop using fossil fuels when you have renewables that you can really roll out and the main message should be whatever we are doing to decarbonize at the very first the very first step must be a rapid deployment of renewable energy such as winded solar and we have to make sure that the regulatory framework does not hinder investors to get these energy sources running what i've learned today is that much many more people think about actually using ammonia i never was very very glad to hear that industry is actively putting some thought and money in this alternative carrier and i'm also happy to hear that we should really work on regulatory issues and burdens in order to be able to deploy those carriers at market scale in my view the easiest way of course is pricing fossil fuels because then you would make alternative fuels stemming from your new builds market ready so to speak by itself sir nicholas stern has said climate change is the most obvious sign of market failure that we have we have ever seen and we should take this to our heart thank you david herrera fuentes the main message that you would like the audience to take away today so basically i would like to to insist that the european fertilizer industry is really committed to first decarbonize its own production we also believe that ammonia can play a fundamental role in the global solution for for the energy transition in europe and worldwide and we believe that the time of doing it is now so uh we really think that we need support from authorities now and we are committed to to to to develop and uh and go for for these solutions and now to conclude barrett hinnemann the main message the main takeaways from from your side yeah i mean the main takeaway or the main message from my side is that we are on this journey of decarbonization in the shipping industry and especially for deep sea shipping i mean that will be a huge transition and also it's important to to see there's no silver bullet there's no easy solution there are several candidate fuels ammonia being one of them and as it was also mentioned different fuels for different situations i mean short sea shipping has other solutions available than than deep sea shipping and i think it is important to act now to uh to to go on the journey to find the right fuels to address those all the challenges that have been outlined today to close the competitiveness gaps between the fossil fuels and the uh um and the net zero fuels and also to go the journey together with all the stakeholders as it also has been made clear um and i mean we are doing that together with our customers together with investors together with many many stakeholders and i think with such a complex transition i think that is the only way that this will really come underway thank you very much thank you barry and i think this wraps today's event uh thanks to fertilizers europe for organizing it many thanks again to our speakers for joining the discussion today i hope you all enjoyed it as well in the online audience well thanks and bye-bye enjoy the rest of the day thank you very much thank you [Music] you

Channel: EURACTIV

Views: 14,271

Rating: 4.9086757 out of 5

Keywords: event, european union, European Green Deal, COVID-19, debate, low-carbon economy, investing, investment, Internal Market

Id: zkPROl4dMf8

Length: 73min 5sec (4385 seconds)

Published: Thu Sep 10 2020