Agnostic Engineer's Life RADICALLY Transformed by Near Death Experiences | John Burke

Gallup did a poll in the late 80s of Americans and found out one out of 25 Americans has had a near near-death experience that's like 13 million statistically this one guy Randy is a CEO has uh embolisms in his in his leg that travel up and block his pulmonary artery and his body shuts down and he he rises up interestingly he sees the realm all around us the the spiritual Dimension all around us ch out to Jesus um he was a believer in Jesus but he was really struggling with God and the next thing he knows he's he's up he's traveling up and he's embraced and he knows who this is and he feels an arm around his stomach and he feels the beard on his face that's personal and he knows this is Jesus and he drops to his knees and he's just overwhelmed and and Jesus turns him around and picks him up and he looks into his eyes and he said you know I I knew love I knew the love of a child I knew the love of a spouse but I'd never looked into The Eyes Of Love itself gosh and he said I just never wanted to leave all right John Burke all the way from Austin Texas welcome to Houston great to be here Eric dude it's been really good having you here um you've been here all morning here it's a Sunday for folks that are tuning in Sunday afternoon now and you were with us all morning preaching about um these stories and this book that you've written um for uh three services and uh talking to folks afterward how you feeling I'm good I'm a little tired but it's good it's all good man thanks for making the trip and um gosh the reaction from our people um I mean it was overwhelming it was awesome I'm a little jealous a little because they don't react to me that way but I'm getting I'm working through it is not welcome in his own Hometown maybe yeah but it's so good to see people I care about so deeply just cut to the cut to the core but like I said I'm I'm jealous of your radio voice I don't have a voice like that well I don't have a face like yours dude you just told me your told me you're 60 years old man I've I've never looked as handsome as you do at 60 it's great oh thank you well we can be jealous of each other in different ways the Lord can't give everybody everything right man it's uh it's really good have you back we got to know each other back in 2018 um when you had written a few years before that I think you had written imagine Heaven yeah 2015 yeah and uh by 2018 we had gotten wind of it and we were getting started with this podcast about that time and um and we really just wanted to talk to you and you were open to that so we came to Austin yeah and got to know you and talked to you about imagine heaven and near-death experiences which we're going to get more into today and but before we do it you've written a follow-up book because that one was I mean it was just such a breakthrough and for so many people to experience God through these stories you wrote this book called imagine the god of Heaven which is on the same topic but deeper I've read both books I frankly enjoy the second one more I do too really I do yeah because you know it's about God yeah and you know like what so many near-death experiencers I interviewed said is of all the Wonders the beauty of Heaven the reunions of Heaven the right the mysteries of heaven but nothing compared nothing to being in the presence of God yeah and that's why I subtitled it you know the love you've always wanted because that's what they would consistently say he is what you've always wanted you just don't realize it yet dude it's so profound and the book itself is is really it's what I love about it is that it's a deeper dive and theologically and just just in in any sense I mean it just goes deeper and uh so I really really appreciate it I'm glad you wrote it and I hope it does as well and even better than the first one oh thanks I know a lot of people are going to be are going to be touched by it so why did you choose to write a follow-up book on the same sort of topic what was missing from the first one that you wanted to delve into more well I mean in Imagine Heaven I touched on people's experience of God but we didn't we didn't really dive in and what I'm trying to do in Imagine the god of Heaven well back up funny little story I actually quit writing after I wrote imagine heaven really so you had written several books written four books uh and then imagine heaven and as as you know I my wife and I started a church pastored for 25 years and and and the Lord had very clearly called me to do that it was it was clear and um and I told him you know as you know you've written some books I told him you know I think I did what you wanted it's too much to try to write books and and lead people well I I'm going to do what you called me to do I'm going to pastor this church if you want me to write tell me but otherwise I'm done with that yeah and so yeah so imagine having became a New York Times bestseller and sold like crazy and I didn't write again which you know yeah usually you do that's right but um in Co the Lord made it really clear to me that um he did want me to write again and he wanted me to write about him which was kind of like overwhelming like uh who am I right but I what he reminded me is you know it's not about me I'm just a reporter you know he's he's given me this kind of crazy it is kind of crazy I'll I'll admit it's kind of weird you know like but but an obsession for 35 years with studying these experiences and trying to reconcile them with scripture yeah and um you know that's kind of just the analytical geeky engineer in me I was like I got to figure out the answer how does this work and so yeah so he he made it clear that I could pass a baton of leadership at Gateway and this is what he was calling me to and so we did last May that's courageous and um and you know imagine the god of Heaven just came out and yeah it's cool it's already it's already a bestseller and oh dude amazing you know I'm it's it's amazing because I'm speaking on podcast and things literally all over the world right now yeah and I think that I think that's the why because I think he wants people all over the world to know what he's doing right yeah and and and that's another motivation is I think he's raising up these stories and as you know in Imagine the god of Heaven there's 7 70 that um I've interviewed on every continent mhm and they are testifying to the same God right even if that's not what was in their culture or in their religious background yeah and I think he's showing that he's always been the God of all Nations right and yeah in throughout scripture you see like every nation people in every place will lift up his name and I'm not sure that made sense before we were so connected by technology ology like um I think about technology today being akin to like the Roman Road system of the first century when absolutely when the gospel spread on you know secular roads um and without those roads the gospel could not have spread the way that it did and now we see the sort of um the internet super highway kind of te technology making the advancement of the Gospel even more possible the book like yours would have been possible without that sort of connectivity oh and and even five years ago it wouldn't have been possible for you know the the videos I showed you today of a guy in Rwanda and someone from India and you know all across the globe and yet now you can go out and and see these testimonies from all over the world right but at the same time What I'm trying to show is something I think is very important is that God didn't just all of a sudden show up in the age of modern medical resuscitation right the same God who these people experience around the globe he's been revealing himself throughout history all along yeah and and put it down through the Jewish prophets foretold what he was going to do through Jesus and he wants to be known yeah I think that's a really important Point um because sometimes we can get caught up in sort of supernatural phenomena like inde EES which we'll talk more in detail about in a minute and think well this is the end all of e all this is the true through Revelation and and overplay that hand a little and some people will cynics will look at it and go well that they're claiming that it's you know um the revelation of God and I know that it's not so I'll discount all those stories and both extremes are wrong I've heard you say that these indes are an example of uh experiences adding color to what the Bible has already told us about the nature and character of God and I really appreciate that sort of wording yeah of it so um before we get any further let's kind of take a step back and make sure we're bringing everybody along with us because uh I know your story and some folks listening might but many don't and so how did this all begin like where did this uh Obsession or passion about Indie start yeah for for me it started all the way back um when I was an agnostic I uh you know I didn't know I thought Jesus was probably just a legend I mean human but turned into a legend into God um I didn't know about God I just I had a lot of questions you know I ended up studying engineering the University of Texas and you know worked as an engineer so I've always been analytical quizzical like why how do you know you know that that was always my angle and and people couldn't answer my questions about God and so I finally decided Well maybe it's just not true and I'll just live you know live my life and then my dad got cancer and someone gave him the very first book on research on near-death experiences and I saw it by his bedside table picked it up start reading it couldn't put it down and by the end of it I was like whoa this could actually be evidence like what I've been asking for how do you know this could be evidence that this this Heaven God stuff might be real yeah and so many of them talked about seeing this God of Light some of them Jesus knew he was Jesus and so I didn't I didn't become a Believer right but I was open and then I I started reading the Bible I started asking my questions in groups and things like that and and then I finally came to realize for actually very different reasons than near-death experiences that there is a ton of evidence that God has really revealed himself in history and I weave that into the new book as well I you know I had to my geeky self yeah you know that's interesting how far back that goes and and how it wasn't an instantaneous sort of wholesale transformation that happened in you like that book was sort of a breadcrumb along your Trail yeah and then I ended up I worked as an engineer and lived out in Santa Barbara California which I didn't know until way later but Santa Barbara ended up being kind of the place where a lot of research was taking place on near-death experiences this is in the ' 80s in the late ' 80s and so I kept running into them and I kept you know putting the pieces together I actually gave my first talk on this in 1989 at the University of California Santa Barbara wow so I've been at it for 35 plus years and I've studied thousands of them now interviewed personally hundreds and hundreds of them yeah and I just think I do think this is God giving testimony to his reality and it's great love and grace offered to all people of all Nations sure yeah it's amazing um let let's sort of offer a definition for near-death experiences because there's a wide range of different kinds of supernatural phenomena that sort of fit the bill but might not like when I was six I got what I still believe to this day as skeptical as I am at heart honestly I'm a cynic about a lot of things but I got this Vision about a relative of mine who I'd never known never met but who died um and whose mother had been praying for some sort of sign that he was okay and I was given in a dream was sort of a dream state thing no sort of crossing over no uh heart stoppage or anything like that so that's obviously not a by definition a near-death experience right but how how do we Define these sorts of experiences what what is an nde yeah and you know I mean there are all kinds of experiences and and and people share them with me um I have because I am a cynic and a skeptic at Art too I've focused in on the ones that it's clinical death okay so um when people clinically die you know your heart stops beating and within within a minute you have no brain waves right your brain waves cease and yet these people are resuscitated either by modern medicine some cases Miracle um some a few minutes but some hours an hours and yet they come back and when they come back they report being more alive than they ever were uh in a body still that was like they were themselves completely in fact some people say even more myself wow um in a place more real uh you know than than this which I I had a guy come up to me today after the service uh several who had had near-death experiences and said that exact thing how many four four people from One Sunday morning yeah came and told you this yeah wow well and that the other thing people don't realize you know Gallup did a poll in the late 80s of Americans and found out one out of 25 Americans has had a near near-death experience that's wow that's like 13 million statistically but even more recently 2019 the um European Academy of Neurology reported a study across 35 countries that showed that 5% one out of 20 people in 35 countries have had a near-death experience so that's why I think it's so important to make sense of them because this is not just like a weirdo blip out there this is millions of people right but they don't often talk about it they don't well because and like you said until re really five years ago it wasn't out there on the internet for everybody to see right it wasn't that known I mean people have been studying it for the last 40 years but it hasn't been accepted in the Christian Community yeah in the early days a lot of pastors and other Christians it it spooked them they didn't know what to think and so they kind of like well just stay away from that right um and it's kind of on par with like alien abduction kinds of things tin full hats sort of things and and kind of the woo woo kind of um it was easily dismissed yeah yeah and they say it is a sacred experience and and the way I like to explain it and the reason it's so hard for them to talk about is what is how do you explain something more real than this right but that's what they consistently say and the way I explain it to people haven't had a near-death experience after interviewing so many is by analogy so imagine you know right now we're living a three-dimensional experience sure but imagine if we were living this experience actually on a flat two two dimensional black and white painting in your room yeah and death means separation so at death your two-dimensional self is peeled off that flat painting and brought out into this three-dimensional room of color that was around you all the time you just couldn't perceive of it because you didn't have a third dimension yeah to even perceive in and now you're experiencing three dimensions of color it's you're more alive than you were in your flat world and you can see your flat world for what it is cuz it's a part of this bigger realm right then you're pressed back into the flat world and now you have to explain three dimensions of color but in two-dimensional black and white terms what would you say well that's what they say when I use that analogy with them they say oh absolutely that's it yeah because what they're experiencing is multi-dimensional to to our dimensionalities does it depress them to go back into the painting usually really usually I've I've met a few who who wanted to go back but most beg to stay wow and uh the Lord e either tells them no you still have a purpose to fulfill you have to go back yeah and sends them back in some cases he gives them a choice right what what's the scientific explanation like how does uh how does science maybe answer some of the questions in its way like in ways that might even contradict our interpretation as Christians like if what you're writing about in the book like how does science explain it away if alternate explanations yeah yeah and um in Chapter 2 of imagine the god of Heaven this new book I go through the 10 points of evidence that convince me but not just me many skeptical medical doctors yeah believe that this shows proof of Consciousness surviving death really and yeah I'll go just a few of them but um one is verifiable observations MH this this is the one that got my attention so at first I was like yeah who knows what that is but then what people say is when they first die they leave their body they still have a spiritual body and initially they're often up above their body observing up above their physical body right observing the resuscitation or what's happening in the room now there have actually been studies done because there you know an example of this would be um like in in the new book there's a a woman in London who dies giving child birth and she's up above her body and then she goes through a tunnel in this beautiful place she's with God she she doesn't want to come back but he says no you need to go back your son Michael is going to live and you know she she didn't know if he was dying too she comes back and as she's coming back she comes through the ceiling toward her body and she sees on the top side of a ceiling fan a red sticker yeah and she comes back into her body they shock her twice she sees them shocking her twice she comes to and she starts trying to tell the doctors and nurses of this incredible experience and nobody believes her and they they think it's just psychosis or whatever and finally she gets a nurse to listen because she told the nurse things she said right when she when you know this woman was comos she shouldn't have heard any of that seen and she said look I'll prove it to you get a ladder and go look on the top side of that ceiling fan and you'll find a sticker a red sticker and this is what it says on the sticker and the nurse and an orderly see it and they're like it was there my favorite one was the guy in surgery and the doctors were telling unseemly jokes oh yeah about him or something and he he came back and told him the jokes that they were saying they were caught red-handed yeah that was Dr Rajiv Pary so that's a fascinating one because he was an Chief anesthesiologist at the Bakersfield Heart Hospital and he he had seen many people come back from anesthesia talking about a near-death experience and just would give him a shot of hll of a antipsychotic drug he just thought it was nonsense and then he had one and none of the doctors believed him and his is his is fascinating because truly his was like a Damascus Road encounter like the Apostle Paul had you know the Apostle Paul didn't believe in Jesus sure um he was persec in Christians having him arrested when he's on the way to Damascus and the same brilliant God of Light that appears to indes around the world appears to Saul yeah and and and Saul knows this his God and he says who are you Lord I'm Jesus who you're persecuting right and and you know Jesus doesn't tell them what to do or doesn't explain the the message of the good news or anything like that sure later ananas comes to Paul and explains it and then Paul has to decide what's fascinating is that happened to Dr Pary almost exactly so he goes from initially having a hellish experience and crying out he said in Repentance to God and then being taken by these two he said Christian Angels they were angels that are from the Bible and he's taken to this beautiful place in front of this God of Light who's Brighter Than The Sun by a thousand times he said and and full of love for him and he said I I'm I want you to see your life again and then he Dr parti has a Life review where he sees that he had become abusive toward his son and he'd gotten addicted to painkillers and alcoholism all kinds of other things and and and he thought God's going to send me back to hell yeah but instead he said I'm I'm going to send you back and you need to make change changes mhm and he goes back and he said interestingly I had the thought that that was Jesus he said if not it's this God who understands all of our weaknesses and that we're not perfect but is willing to forgive us okay then he's later helping his friend narash who is dying understand this God who he encountered and all that the night NES dies Raji wakes up to a vision of Heaven's parting he sees the same God of Light and NES standing by him this is the very night NES Di and he starts to leave his body again and God says to him it's not your time you need to go back yeah and he says Lord who are you because he had he had actually gone and gotten baptized but then was questioning and struggling with it and he says who are you and he said out of the light steps a man with a beard and a robe with a gold Sash and says I'm Jesus your savior I mean he he grew up Hindu wow and and it doesn't make any sense and yet all over the globe people are encountering the same God of Light of love but this is the same God who revealed himself to Moses yeah 3,500 years ago as This brilliant light that wouldn't burn up the bush right yeah and then the Daniel and then Jesus is transfigured on the mountain remember right he became brighter than the sun sure and so and he said I am the light of am the light of the world yeah and there's imagery in the prophets of like I don't remember where it is exactly you probably I think you're the one that brought this to my attention but this idea of the light emanating from the Sun like he is the light in heaven and that's sort of the biblical vision of what um of what reality will look like when we finally get there I just think it's important for our listeners and viewers to understand that these aren't just nice stories that affirm our deepest desires for what we hope you know is awaiting us on the other side and it's not wishful thinking kind of stuff Happening Here There are empirical data points that a reasonable person can consider and reach the conclusions that that you've reached I mean you didn't get there just because you felt like you wanted this to be true yeah and these verifiable observations that they make have been studied yeah so for instance Dr Janice Holden did a study of of around a hundred patients who had cardiac arrest and claimed to have a near-death experience and they each made observations about what was happening in the room of their resuscitation each one may make you know five 10 observations well what she found is 92% of their observations were completely accurate accurate meaning it was exactly what actually happened when they verified with the doctors and the nurses another 6% um were mostly accurate only 2% were inaccurate turns out that was one of the of the patients yeah and so you've got verifiable observations that ties it to this real world it's it's it's not just a hallucination right and it can't be a blip in the brain either because um and I put a case in Imagine the god of Heaven of Pam Reynolds which I think is the most it's it's one of the most the strongest cases because she had clickers going in her ears she had all the blood drained out of her brain no brain waves her eyes tape shut there was no way to get any stimulus from the outside and they made sure there was nothing happening in the brain right so it's not the brain yeah and you know some like um Skeptics like doc Dr Michael shurmer who originally would say it's just something the brain does when it's dying well then he realized well that doesn't account for most of this data and so he says well it's just what happens in the brain as it's booting back up it it it kind of puts these pieces together well the problem is like Pam Reynolds she's coming back in the middle of surgery she describes the saw they used to saw open her skull because she was in this deep uh it was a deep aneurysm they were having to get out operate out of her deep loobe in her brain and um so she describes that she describes what the nurses and doctors said in the midst of the deepest anesthesia yeah and that they were playing Hotel California as they operated on her and that they shocked her heart twice not once huh and yet all these things she accurately reports well if your brain just does a a blip when it comes back yeah and it's not getting any any sensory information right that doesn't make sense yeah there's a lot that doesn't make sense about a rational explanation or materialistic let's say explanation of these phenomena I mean not least of which is the fact that blind people see things accurately well and and and that's another point of evidence that I write about because you know I have uh I I think three or four blind people in Imagine the god of heaven and um for for instance some of the things so not only do they see in their near-death experience but they see the same thing cited people do yeah but some of the things they report seen they would not have heard that that's how things work so let me give you an example okay so near-death experiencers commonly say that in in this heavenly realm light isn't like light like we experience light it's light that is palpable light that is life and love right and blind people say like um Vicky and and this other when Debbie said the light was coming out of things out of the trees out of the flowers out of the birds even even out of the people this welcoming committee of people coming toward her now here's the crazy thing that's common of near-death experiencers around the globe saying that light light in heaven comes out of everything and it's more Vivid than anything you've ever seen yeah but Isaiah 60 says there there is no sun or moon in heaven because God is its light that's it yeah Revelation 21 John says there's no sun or moon because the glory of God is its light and Jesus the lamb is its lamp and the Nations will walk in that light right so here you have as well Jesus in John 13 said then the righteous will shine like the stars in their father's Kingdom forever so even this light coming out of people it's the glory of God that we share it's the life and love of God flowing through everything giving life to everything now how would a blind person say know to say that because they would not have heard that light shines out of everything they would have heard light shines on things sure that's interesting oh yeah I mean there's so many points of evidence like that people on the other side one blind person and imagine the god of heaven debie then in her near-death experience she sees her mom come in to rescue her she's able to later say what her mom looked like and was wearing wow she was wearing a robe and it was a dark color she didn't know what color she said yeah it was my black robe then she travels you know again to this heavenly place is with God who tells her she's got to go back she's going to have children she was told she couldn't have children she did have children when she came back but she met her grandmother who she had never met because her grandmother died when she was a young child right and she comes back and she describes to her mom what her grand mother look like and her mom said yeah that's right but when she was 30 wow well that's another commonality that people in heaven are typically in their Prime about about their 30s you know that's good news yeah for all of us 29 was a good year for me I like that way better than 45 yeah try 60 yeah I don't know [Music] man okay guys this seems like the perfect time to take a quick break and tell you about an organ ganization that is near and dear to my heart um Jubilee prison Ministries is changing lives every day throughout the state of Texas I've seen it myself firsthand how Jubilee is changing inmates lives first and foremost by hosting Jubilee weekends where inmates enjoy great food they make new friends with folks on the outside and most importantly they hear the hopeful message of Jesus that in many cases changes their lives forever but inmates aren't the only people who have their whole trajectory shifted and altered by Jesus Through Jubilee I've seen personally um God moving powerfully in the lives of men and women who serve through Jubilee um and their weekends inside of Texas prisons I personally know guys for example who were pretty good guys pretty good men before they chose to step up and serve through Jubilee but after their first weekend volunteering in a prison uh I've witnessed those same guys be transformed by God into Great Men um men with uh fire in their eyes and uh passion to change the world and the best part is that um these guys don't just catch fire for a time and then you know that fire goes out and they go back to being who they were before these guys are forever transformed because Jubilee's approach is so relational that the guys find the the folks who are serving alongside of them are their friends on Mission together um for a lifetime it's truly amazing to see but Jubilee isn't Just For Men by the way they're also looking for women to step up and serve in women's prison units throughout the state or to provide outside support for all the Jubilee weekends and men's and women's units alike if you're ready to to serve and you're willing to make a difference in the lives of incarcerated men and women throughout the state of Texas and maybe you need to make a change in your own life as well you're ready for something more I hope you'll visit Jubilee prison ministries.org for more information about how to volunteer if you're not ready to serve in person in a prison yet please consider um making a donation through their website again that's jubile prison ministry.org um you will make a difference just by making a donation Jubilee is an ecumenical nonprofit organization and all donations are tax deductible thanks for listening and now let's get back to today's episode we haven't even really gotten into what I think might be the single biggest sort of card to play in this argument which is people from different religions and cultures and places experiencing the same God and it's particularly obviously the god the Bible describes the the the Lord you know Jesus Christ and I I I don't know what to do with that John other than just say okay fine I get it God like this is true all this is real but you've got Hindus and you know Muslim imams in your book that talk about experiencing a near-death experience experiencing the god of the Bible and then everything changes and the other interesting thing about those people is that there's no incentive whatsoever oh no it's not it's not a case where they're going to ride a bestseller and make a ton of money off of this you know they're going to they're going to be killed potentially yeah they suffer a lot of persecution yeah so talk about those experiences that people have across cultural and religious lines yeah and and you know that's that's part of what I think why I think God asked me to leave what I had done before and do this because I think he wants all people of all Nations to to understand he loves every person uniquely MH you know we we we sometimes I sometimes do this when I'm going through an airport there's so many people I'm like I'm just one of so many people when you just feel like yeah it doesn't matter right but you know what it's not true to God you are unique there is no one else he created like you and as one in the ear that you heard Dean said you know he realized that God God has a special love for you that is unique there's it's not for anyone else yeah and and and so I think I loved it too when he said somebody asked me if God gave me a hug and he said I said everything about him was hugging me I just that just rocked me you know and I thought about obviously I thought about my mom who I lost last year and just being everything about God hugging her it's just I mean it just brings me such joy and comfort but it's more than a feeling it's a it's a it's an assurance well and and you know like you pointed out it is another point of evidence like how do you explain 48% of people having near-death experiences encounter this light that is love this God of Light and love or or they just encounter Jesus himself they know he's Jesus and yet they have nothing to gain it doesn't match many times their their cultural upbringing now I want to say something because I think sometimes this really bothers people because they're like um because they hear it almost like oh well you're saying you're right and we're wrong yeah and it's not that at all um and and you know part of why I wrote this is I think I think Christ a lot of Christians get it wrong because they don't understand that God uniquely loves every person and he is with every person and wanting to he's as close as their heart turning to him yeah you know Joel said all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved will be set right with God and that really is what he was doing through Jesus he was making a way that in our broken evil world where we all sin we all turn away from God yeah and if you don't believe you do just just think about this how many days do you wake up thinking God how can I do your will today versus what do I want to do today or what do I have to do today right yeah and we all do and and yet he he holds out forgiveness for every person the only thing that can keep us away from God is our pride right just saying I don't I don't want you and I don't need your forgiveness I got it yeah I do I do appreciate that word because I think it's easy for Christians to hear this and kind of Spike the football a little bit or something like uh you know we were right all along kind of you know um high and mighty about it and that's obviously not why you wrote these books and it's not an appropriate response resp to to these phenomena at all however I am curious to know whether there's been any research done that reveals any of the reverse happening where Christians die and meet you know Vishnu the the Hindu goddess or or or meet um you know Muhammad the prophet or is there any other are there any examples at least in terms of the numbers of magnitude of people that are coming to Jesus regardless of whether they're Christians yeah so here so here's interesting thing is if you just go read near-death experiences you will hear people saying you know oh I encountered um this God or this goddess but I I I point out that there's a difference between what people report and how they interpret what they report and that's a very important distinction and it that's part of why it took me so long to write imagine Heaven because it that was confusing to me as well um I give example I I have um I have multiple people who grew up Hindu in the book who who encounter Jesus Santos is another one who he's taken by this God of Light and he describes the holy city of God just like in Revelation 21 yet he had zero background in the Bible yeah and and then you know I told you he comes back and he starts reading the Bible he's like everything I experienced was in there yeah and he becomes a follower of Jesus another guy Jen Jaz wal um Dr part um there so there're multiple ones but they don't all initially um interpret it that way they interpret it in their own cultural framework so for instance there's um another guy I report of in the book arvind who he says you know in the hospital he leaves his body he floats out into the hallway of the hospital and there this like hallway opens up and This brilliant God of Light and love is there and then he goes back into body yeah that's another thing some indie e are shallow that they're they're not that long of an experience so that leaves a lot of room to interpret right yeah so Arvin comes back and what he says is I I experienced the the goddess Kika now the problem with that is Kika or Kali is described as this this goddess who is either black or blue with a long tongue and um and forearms with with weapons in it and that's not at all who he reported seen right who he did report seen was the same God of Light and love that appeared to Moses and appeared to Daniel and that yeah you know Jes only category was but that's that's who he worshiped and so that's who he he knew this was divine interesting uh an even better example Nia um was also um uh Hindu by background but she was in Africa when uh she ended up going into a a lion's cage with with the trainer but the lionist actually molded her bit bit her head she leaves her body and she says there was this this glow like like the sun like like the morning Dawn and that that took me to this place of incredible beauty and she said God definitely exists M and she comes back okay and then she says I encountered uh durma the the goddess Durga now again Durga is described as a beautiful woman where riding a lion uh or a tiger with with like 12 arms you know and weapons in the arm that's not who she saw right she saw the same God of Light and love yeah and then she said interestingly I came back with a knowledge of Christianity and Jesus which I didn't have before huh why Jesus yeah but this is consistent yeah and so to answer your question no I really haven't I haven't heard people actually report experiencing what they would expect of another god or goddess like actual characteristics and qualities that match what those religions teach about those gods and goddesses right but they do experience the God of Light who is love and personal not an impersonal Force yeah very personal knows them personally things they forgot about their life God shows them in their life review and what what they come back consistently saying is God is love they know that without a doubt and how we love and treat one another is what God cares about most wow well that's what Moses said cover to cover baby Jesus said love God love your neighbor that sums up the whole Bible right yeah you can't love God and hate your neighbor right that's pretty much a uh yeah a sticking point in the Bible um from start to finish so let's talk a little bit more about the qualities of this God that people experience um we've talked more generally about light and love and things what what other characteristics stood out to you when you started listening closely to what people experienced yeah I mean in the book I'm I'm I'm I'm trying to sneak people into to really understanding the Theology of God yeah uh you know by showing these are the things that God has revealed over thousands of years about himself um so it's not new information based on not new but but when you hear how people experienced these qualities you know like one um you know like words like omniscient uhuh means all knowing well in the Life review people experience God's omniscience um at at other points they say they look into his eyes and and suddenly every question they ever had was answered wow now you know Paul said right now we we see as in a mirror dimly but but then we will see clearly now you know we we know in part but then we will know in full just as we are fully known so they start to experience some of the some of the qualities of of God like that um his Eminence meaning he is in everything he's everywhere in everything and and he's infinite so so even though God appeared as Jesus to reveal himself to us that's not all there is to God and interestingly this this was an aha I had is that even though God appears as God the father on his throne in the center of this holy city that's not all there is to God H I actually think God the father on the throne is the manifestation of God for the inhabitants of heaven but God is Spirit he's everywhere yeah always but he's not only in his creation he's Beyond his creation he transcends his creation and so when you hear these Nast talk about the experience of that it it brings meaning to it yeah like I can trust this God because he does have it all under control he's big enough to have it all under control he does hear all our prayers he he does uniquely love each one of us cuz he's greater than the box I keep him in yeah it also kind of must help them make sense of complex theological things like the Trinity yeah which is something a lot of Believers including most preachers and all of us struggle with like how do we make sense of three in one uh they see God in a different way when they have these experiences right how do they talk talk about the threein Oneness of God yeah and um you know you heard some stories today that are out of the book um that I showed the videos of of you know like a 16-year-old Jewish girl who grew up hearing that that there is no God her her dad was an atheist and pretty abusive honestly and grew up hearing this Mantra every day there is no God your life is worthless Jesus is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind yet she despite that believed in God and every night she prayed to God and felt like God was sitting there by her bed comforting her wow and then at 16 her horse falls on her she dies and there 30 feet up in the air with her is Jesus and he he's Bright Like the Sun but it's Jesus and she knows it's Jesus and she said but I knew him it wasn't like who are you it was like oh huh I know you and and he smiles at her and she said it was like a reunion because old she knew this was the God she had always prayed to and then in her life review he shows her herself as a little girl praying at night and he shows her himself sitting by her bedside comforting her so now this is a how and why would she think that then jesus takes her into this she he takes her to I guess it Heaven um I I'll tell you honestly I don't know if this is heaven or if it's something in between yeah I mean in some cases I do think he's letting them see heaven like the holy city and stuff like that but in some cases something else something in between but got to retitle the books yeah well I know it yeah it gets complicated but he he takes her jesus takes her into this light that she says was infinite love and suddenly she finds herself with the father and she's there and just being embraced by God the Father like a little girl and she was a little girl she was 16 and been abused sure and so you think about the tenderness of God like he knew he he knew how Jesus knew how how fun it would be cuz they they went like the speed of light she said like Superman and Lois Lane going there she was a horse rider so she likes spe she loves speed she said it was the funnest thing I've ever done in my life but then the tenderness of God and she never wanted to leave now Jesus said you have to go back yeah and I want you to tell everything you've heard and and that's an important thing indes are not a cross over into either eternal life or Eternal death they're not there's something in between God knows they're going to come back that's why you struggle with whether it's heaven and its fullness or not exactly and and um when she comes back Jesus left but he left her with his presence and she didn't really understand that till later you know she she still considers herself Jewish but she follows Jesus as the Messiah yeah and she realized well that was the Holy Spirit now she had no context for that right and yet that's what she described and again and again I give evidence of near-death experiencers who experience the Trinity but they say things like like Dean Braxton that you heard today said you know in heaven you know we we say father son and spirit and we think of them as three but nobody thinks like that there they're just one yeah and you can't separate one from the other even though they are we would say separate but I I I think the problem is everything we express is in our three-dimensional sure understand separate terms so we don't have but it helps you yeah I mean I think you you've read it it it helps you go oh okay it does make sense but just beyond our our limitations sure yeah I can imag I think any anyone any honest skeptic could imagine that in uh the next whatever there are dimensions that we will understand and be able to sort of attain well look our mathematicians have proved it that's right you know I mean kuoa kleene two scientists who you know they were trying to re rectify the unified field Theory yeah you know Einstein's equations of general relativity work perfectly for large masses like planets um quantum mechanics works perfectly for the microscopic but they don't work together yeah and what they found is if there is a Fifth Dimension added to the equations they work perfectly really and and so then that led to string theory where our scientists postulate there maybe even 11 unseen Dimensions we you know we know of three right well four time is the fourth sure and so yeah and even on the other side time works differently you know I was going to ask about that actually well Peter I I know I find it fascinating right cuz Peter in second Peter 3:8 you know when Jesus disciples said don't forget this to the Lord a a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day yeah well near-death experiencers say almost the exact same thing they they'll say things like time stopped or there was no time or well there there was time but there was all the time in the world and so the different ones describe it differently but what I postulate in the book and actually this guy Greg Rickert that I interviewed experienced it but I postulate that there if there two dimensions of time you know we we move forward linearly in One Direction on a timeline sure but if they're two dimensions of time that means at every point on that timeline there's another line going horizontal that you can stay on as long as you want wow what that would mean is there would be time moving forward but at each moment of time you have all the time you need boom I need Christopher Nolan to make a movie about it that's so good oh my gosh I was I was wondering if there's any correlation between how long someone's under and what time you know length of time they're experiencing I can't find any yeah which which would feed the theory that it just works different there yeah yeah yeah I don't know because some you know that are gone here for 10 minutes might feel like they had days or don't know how long it was yeah um some that might be gone for hours you know I it's it's it doesn't seem to correlate right that's amazing and I could you know just uh have a glass of wine with you and keep talking about that alone and just trying to figure that out um but another characteristic of God that came up again and again in the book that I really appreciated because I've always felt this about God as long as I've been a Believer and I don't think enough people think about The Joy yeah and laughter of God yeah you you went to Seminary right unfortunately yes yeah so one of the fascinating things in in researching and writing imagine the god of Heaven is I dug back through all my old Theological Seminary textbooks right because what I wanted to do is is show these things that you read about in the Bible and bring them to life through these 70 people who have experienced him right and what's interesting is you know you got all those words omniscient omnipotent you know imminent Transcendent you know omnipresent all that but do you know I could not find one descriptor of God as joyful in any Seminary textbook really I'm not surprised Joy was not a characteristic of God and I find that so ironic because you know in in the Old Testament John God commanded the Israelites to party yeah we don't think about that but seven festivals that the whole nation was to come together seven times a year right and he says to them I want you to celebrate with joy before the Lord for seven days what yeah you know and and Jesus last night on earth he he said I've told you these things so that my joy would be in you and that your joy would overflow right and I think people just don't picture God as joyful mhm I think about or as enjoying yeah yeah enjoying us and enjoying us enjoying him and I think about the old song or Psalm that we used to sing in church in my small town Church growing up the joy of the Lord is my strength you know the joy of the Lord I don't know if you know that song but uh I used to interpret it like well the joy I have in the Lord right is my strength it's from a Psalm yeah but your book sort of made me wonder like is it the Lord's Joy that's my strength like that's how it seems to be worded like it's his joy that is our strength what does that mean and what do the nde experiences say about the joy yeah I mean you know we we sometimes we read the Bible and it we can miss it because honestly a lot of the Old Testament happened with the Old Testament prophets in a season of rebellion of Israel warning them over and over and over again so you feel like well God's just mad all the time no he was that patient hoping they wouldn't just keep hardening their hearts but that's that's a temporary that's that's a temporary response of God to a world that turns away from him his permanent response is Joy that's that's where he lives CS Lewis said Joy is the serious business of heaven and that's what Indie ear say as well so like this one guy Randy is a CEO has uh embolisms in his in his leg that travel up and block his pulmonary artery and his body shuts down and he he rises up interestingly he sees the realm all around us the the spiritual Dimension all around us cries out to Jesus um he was a believer in Jesus but he was really struggling with God and the next thing he knows he's he's up he's traveling up and he's embraced and he knows who this is and he feels an arm around his stomach and he feels a beard on his face that's personal and he knows this is Jesus and he drops to his knees and he's just overwhelmed and and Jesus turns him around and picks him up and he looks into his eyes and he said you know I I knew love I knew the love of a child I knew the love of a spouse but I'd never looked into The Eyes Of Love itself gosh and he said I just never wanted to leave and he and Jesus began to walk through this beautiful paradise you know like you heard Jim say flowers and and trees and Forest and mountains in the distance Beauty like Earth but so vivid yeah colors that we've never even seen before and and just life flowing out of everything and what was interesting Randy grew up in a very hard childhood he uh he had um really bad asthma so he's in out of the hospital a lot as as a result he was a bit overweight he got bullied a lot um he only had one friend and this one friend ended up getting attacked by a gang so they moved away he lost his friend his little dog Casey was all he had and Jesus starts showing him these he called him life vignettes but it's like a Life review and he shows him this he's showing them all this painful memories of a childhood yeah and and and Randy was like Lord why are you showing me this kind like I don't want to see that and then it hit him were you there with me like even through that and he and he turns and he looks at Jesus and there there's a tear wow going down jesus' face and he says I was always with you I've always been with you just waiting for you to turn to me and then he he he's going on and he comes to this River and there are rivers in heaven and you know you know Jesus talks about the the River of Life right which he said was of the Holy Spirit those rivers of Living Water right and and well Randy wants to drink he has this desire to drink of the water so he does he he Scoops it up and and he said as soon as I did it was like ecstasy like Joy just burst through me and he's just like this unbelievable and and he and he turns to Jesus and um and Jesus shows him across this Meadow there are these children playing and and he and he says what is this Lord and he said these are the children whose lives were taken too early I'm restoring their Joy oh my gosh and then he looks back at Jesus and Jesus is holding a flask like a bottle uhhuh and and again he's like everything was intentional and the Lord is mysterious he is the the parable telling God by the way so this fits Jesus parable telling and and he's got this flask and he said what is that Lord and he said I've been collecting your tears beloved and he takes the bottle and he pours it into the river and instantly Randy knew he's returning my sorrows for Joy yeah it it was like it was like all of the Sorrows we've been through in life we weren't alone and God saw him and he counts everyone and when we stay faithful to him through that he's going to return it for Joy yeah and and sorrow is not the permanent sorrow is the temporary suffering is not the permanent suffering is the temporary right the separation from God but the permanent is his Joy wow that is I mean I don't know why we have such trouble believing that but but I know I'm hard of heart in that way man what you're describing is is on par with so many of the what I would would have called like cheesy images of Jesus like I remember laughing at the image of Jesus laughing you ever seen that that painting of Jesus like or whatever is laughing I just remember being dismissive of that and and dismissive of like Jesus uh you know on his knees next to the kid in prayer like and that that whole picture and the whole all the children's Bible memes and Stu the cutesy stuff and man maybe that was all closer to the True Heart Of God than than my serious you know the the ological view well like you know like I said this morning and what I'm trying to do in Imagine the god of Heaven is help us all realize we all put God in a box yeah you know and the truth is God is powerful like you hear Dr Ron Smotherman you know this neurologist saying it was like standing 5et away from the source of a nuclear explosion his power was undeniable right right and and his his sovereignty and omniscience when you hear another doctor uh you know Dr uh Mark Mulla Who as a 16-year-old was he died in a fire when he where he lost his mom and and younger brother and yet when he died during that he came back and he was in the presence of God with his mother and brother and he said it was like we were cozied up on the couch together everything was right and he said In God's Presence I I saw it all and he said all I could say is yes your plan is perfect it makes perfect sense right but then he has to go back and he suffered in this life uhuh and you know what I'm trying to show is that God Is Bigger and greater and more powerful and omniscient and Sovereign and really does have a plan all that big stuff more than we've imagined but he's also more relatable and fun and enjoys us it actually has fun yeah like your guy uh the doctor I think um Dr Ron said you wouldn't expect God almighty God to be ready to laugh his asss off but that's who he found which was great well and Heidi you know Heidi said as and and Greg Rickert too said as Jesus is showing them their life review many times they kind of like paused and just laughed at what happened to him and not laughing at him but just laughing about him right and and I think this is so important you know honestly so important because we don't pursue God because either we think he's not great enough to really be trusted right or we think he's not kind enough to be trusted yeah or relatable enough sure to be honest but here's the thing you know he he came into our world as Jesus to show us he gets it he's been through it all he gets us fully yeah and the truth is nobody gets you more and nobody wants to help you through life more another another powerful thing that Randy the CEO said is in heaven he started to to realize he too ex experienced the father son and spirit but as one he said I started to realize that Jesus was with me by my side the whole time but sometimes he was speaking to me in my thoughts just like some of them call it telepathy but it's more than just in your thoughts it's complete feeling thought communication and other times Jesus spoke to me verbally yeah and he said when he was speaking to me just in my thoughts I realized this is the voice of the Holy Spirit and he said I realize that the Lord is speaking to us all the time but we just haven't learned to to listen and to hear his voice you know many times in the scriptures Jesus said let he who has ears to hear hear what the spirit says yeah right well we all have these round things on the sides of our heads yeah but that that means it's it's a spiritual kind of hearing right and we've got to develop that that's right and we be willing to actually hear well and I think I think that is insightful too what inders tell us is because God's preferred way of communication is thought Toth thought h H that's another Common Thread throughout a lot of the indes oh yeah that that it's it's like they call it like I said telepathic in the sense that it's it's thought to thought and I think that's very important you know I I give an analogy sometimes that we want God to speak audibly right sure that's actually not the most direct form of communication not for God huh so right now you know I'm trying to get all the thoughts in my head into your head right okay or whoever's listening and and yet I'm very limited I I I have to use words there are a lot of things I'm not saying because I can't say them fast enough and you're not listening fast enough because you're thinking about lunch or something else it's very not very efficient efficient yeah what I wish I could do is just put all my thoughts directly in your mind right and then you would you would have them there to understand if you wanted to but you could also just go oh that's a stupid thought I don't want to think about that and think about lunch still right well God can do that and he does uhhuh and and he's actually guiding us or sometimes trying to guide us way more than we realize and the way you learn to and and I write about this in Imagine the god of Heaven the way you learn to walk with him in his joy is you learn to discern those thoughts and they're they're always in line with what he's revealed about his will and his heart in scripture uhhuh they're not going to contradict that but when you act in faith that's when you see I I give some examples you know like one of them is um when I was still an engineer my roommate uh was a Communications coach and he was a Christian and full-time Ministry and and uh I I would learn stuff I'm you know driving an hour back and forth to work and I'm listening to these Christian tapes I'd come back and I'd start to tell them what I'd learn and all he like man you have a teaching gift I'm like oh no no not me like I don't do public speaking I was terrified of public speaking really oh yeah terrified of it and um like Moses yeah and he said no no no let me let me coach you let just give a talk at the University and I'll coach you it'll be great and I'm like no I'm not going to do it Dave and he kept asking for months and Dave just stop I'm not going to do it one day I'm praying about something completely different and into my mind comes the thought when you resist Dave you resist me whoa I knew I hadn't thought that thought I didn't want to think that thought where did that even come from and it came again when you resist Dave you resist me wow and I was like a a lot nicer to Dave after that and I I said yeah so I said yes wow and you know I I was afraid that it would be terrible it was worse than that so I had to develop this gift but he did and you know wow when I think about like now having traveled to 30 countries speaking to so many people you know it's like how did you do that Lord yeah but it it wasn't until I was willing to act that then I'm able to look back and see right yeah and and that's how we learn to discern the voice of God sure well even as a skeptic about a lot of things it's hard for me to find points of argument um with what you've written and with the fruit of your work and um the way it it is grown and made manifest in people's lives and the transformation for Jesus that we see people's lives but I know you fac a lot of criticism and push back from within the church and I've heard some of that frankly just H by having had you on the podcast and by having having had you speak at the church just a very um small minority of Christians but still they usually are pretty vocal yeah um and you know they'll I've heard some of it but what are some of the things you hear push back- Wise from from Christians inside the the church well I mean it it took me 35 years to write imagine have for a reason yeah and when I did I I knew it was what the Lord wanted um because I couldn't figure out why I was so enamored with this stuff you know sure and um but when I went to to press send of the manuscript I said to him I said well Lord this might be the end of my Ministry but you said too so here goes right and um fascinatingly I heard in my mind when I said that I've opened a door in heaven that no one can close really yeah and man I'll tell you like um it doesn't make any sense like a book normally like it it takes off and then it Peters out and then it just you know right imagine Heaven keeps growing every year I can't I mean there's no reason for it wow it doesn't make any sense at all except I think it's not about me at all yeah and it's not even about these people who have these testimonies what we're all testifying about is the goodness of God uhuh and what he has prepared for those who love him and there's nothing better sure so what are the when someone does push back what are some of the things you hear like when when they what are their points oh there are lots of misunderstandings it's hard to cover everything and every talk or you know so um you know Christians often times say well what are you saying you saying everybody goes to heaven no I have a whole chapter in Imagine heaven on Hell there's you know what percentage at least 23% that's just one study and that was of people who came forward 23% let's finish that sentence for listeners 23% of people who came forward talking about a near-death experience had a hellish near-death experience yeah uh so hell is just as real as heaven and they're testifying to that as well but you know um so so that's not it and then they'll say well why in the world would with someone who doesn't even believe in God um you know doesn't know Jesus why would they why would they see God or why would they see Jesus yeah and I remind them that well Saul you know the Apostle Paul was Saul he was a Pharisee who did not believe in Jesus and he was persecuting Christians killing him yeah when he's on the Damascus Road going to arrest Christians and This brilliant God of Light just like the one that appears to near-death experiencers yeah appears to Saul and he says who are you Lord and he says I'm Jesus who you're persecuting uhuh and I like to point out that Jesus does not explain the gospel he doesn't tell them what to do he sent later sends ananas to explain that and that's because what God really wants is us to seek him because he wants our love he wants our hearts sure I think the part that is a threat to some people in the Christian world is probably the fact that the encounter happens after death or it seems to have happened after death and I think um Christians do not want to give some Christians don't want to give anyone the impression that there's any chance Beyond this life to accept um the Lord and to become you to be saved and that these stories might give people the impression that well after this life everybody has a chance to make the right decision and blah blah blah like I don't think that's because of your descriptions of NE death experiences I don't actually think that's what you're advocating for uh a post death sort of opportunity but because you're saying that these are special unique situations that aren't the fullness of Heaven that aren't you know okay stamped you're in you know it's it's a it's a window God gives the these particular people before sending them back to offer witness and testimony for all of our sakes yeah for all of us yeah and one of the things that held me up writing for a long time is you know I I am an intense student of the Bible I if you read you'll see it are yeah and I have been it's been two obsessions yeah you know which is just bizarre like I I I mean I think it's weird you know it's like I never set out to do this I didn't um but it's God's way you know and and and so Hebrews uh 9:27 says it's appointed for mankind to die once then comes a judgment uhhuh that always tripped me up it's like okay then what are these things I I didn't get it and it wasn't until one people started coming forth initially they didn't come forth about hellish experiences because I mean who wants to say hey I didn't go to the good place you know like I'm I'm that bad hey you know no and and and it's so real they have PTSD over it so it's not a laughing matter yeah um but again you know that's not their eternity I I have three Christian Pastor friends who all had hellish ndes and came back and realized man I got to pursue God and they did wholeheartedly wow but it wasn't the hellish experience that motivated them to pursue God it was that they called out to him and he rescued them uhhuh and it was his love that compelled them yeah they wanted people to know this is real and don't reject God because there's only one place where God stays out yeah if you don't want God there's only one place where sure his light and love and life are not and that is Hell MH and you know as CS Lewis says hell the the gates of hell are locked from the inside yeah hell is is God giving free will creatures what they want when they say stay out of my life uhhuh but the other side of it is that um well you were you were asking me specifically about criticisms and things people push back against and yeah and um okay so you know this is not eternity and I think that's a very very important distinction yeah that um and I think we're just discovering all this yeah you know God hasn't revealed everything to us do Deuteronomy 29:29 God you know Moses says the things the the things uh the Mysteries are are the things of the law are revealed to us and to our children but the mysteries of God are not right so there are things that we don't know still so what are these what's the purpose of these experiences in your view well I do think they are a testimony to the reality of Heaven of Hell of the wonders of God I think God is giving some people a peek into all of it yeah um but here's the difference and I I don't know completely how to sort it all out in my mind I haven't been there sure I'm just listening to all these stories and trying to put the pieces together but another commonality of near-death experiences is they would say there's a border or a boundary and it looks different to different experiences but they they they would say I knew I couldn't cross over that and still come back to earth and in Imagine the god of Heaven several times I I had report on Jesus told them you have to go back you haven't died yet now they had died by our clinical definition they had no heartbeat no brain waves and so whatever this is it's something in between when we cross over into eternal life or as the scripture says Eternal death yeah and that is also why I don't encourage people to go just study near-death experiences to understand what's going to happen after this life mhm because one they're interpreting and they can their interpretation can be wrong sure there are a lot of people have very shallow inter experiences and I I don't mean they're shallow I mean no yeah I mean they maybe they leave their body they feel great they have 50 senses not five they see this you know Wonderful welcoming committee there and then they're back in their body right now you know that that was actually the experience of a atheist college professor who if he had been brought back right then he would have said oh atheists go to heaven it's all great sure but that wasn't the end of of what he experienced these wonderful people then deceived him and led him into the outer darkness and muled him oh my gosh till he turns and cries out to Jesus and then this Jesus he mocked and ridiculed his whole life comes to him as This brilliant light and takes him out and then he comes back and leaves a tenur professorship two years later to become a Christian pastor and wife and his wife divorces him because she's an atheist and thinks he's crazy wow what could motivate that you know well and it's that kind of stuff but but the the point is that um these are not crossing over into eternity you know the scripture says there's only one yeah who has really been there and come back to tell and that's Jesus right and so I think these are gifts from God he's he's giving them a glimpse uhuh and now I I would also say about the you know the last minute opportunity I don't know when the last minute is yeah I do think when people cross over into eternity you know Jesus said there's a separation that can't be crossed uhhuh so I don't think that people can you know realize oh I was wrong yeah completely on the other side on the other hand God's mercy and love love for every person is so great that I'm convinced he is pursuing them doggedly to the very last second yep sure and many people who had near-death experiences you heard two of them today um who realized as they were leaving their body oh my gosh this all this stuff is real and they realized you know I'm sorry Lord I I have denied you I've I've and they repent yeah well and and I think he's he's given them everything last opportunity right and if we are to believe the indes experiences about um Jesus saying things like you haven't died yet then the whole question is up for debate about whether or not it's a pre-death conversion or a post-death one in that in between space you know I know we're sort of being um sort of conceptual here in high level but but still it's I think there's some kind of tie still to our temporal existence and I don't understand that yeah I don't know what to make of it all either whether we get another chance after or what people that never believe never knew the name of Jesus what do they get a here here's the thing I have seen is that I I've heard so many stories of like you this one story of Ian he's a young Surfer and he's he's he got bit by multiple box jellyfish one of them will kill you yeah and he's in this ambulance and the poison is going through his body and he's realizing I'm dying he has a Life review flash of his life and he's going oh I that's I've heard that's what happens when you die and and then he hears the voice of his mom the vision of his mom saying pray to God you know no matter what state you're in she used to tell him no matter what you've done Ian God will forgive you just pray to him and he has this thought like well who's God what God you know is it Buddha or k or you know all the all the gods he had and then he realized well my mom prayed to jesus' and and so he's like what do I pray and long story short his mom at that very second was in New Zealand he's in moretus yeah she awakens from a vivid dream telling her pray for Ian he's in trouble and she's down on her knees praying for him at that very moment how does God work it I don't know but I have seen so many people that God is doing everything possible to to get him to turn to him from to the very last second way too many uh examples to ignore and when people ask me whether you know people get another chance after this life on Earth I God is God it's up to him and I'm not going to argue with him right or whatever the case but I hope well you know some sometimes sometimes I find Christians are are more worried about who's not going to get there than worried about trying to help people get there and I don't get that honestly it's like look Jesus told a parable and I think I think if you feel that way I think this one's for you probably and his Parable was you know and this is God hired these workers to work in his field and some he offered you know $5 of wages to and they worked all day long and others came halfway at lunch and he offered $5 of wages and they worked half a day and others came like one minute before closing before closing and he gave them $5 and the the others came up and said that's not fair right and he said hey wasn't it fair that I offered you this wages Y and if I want to be gracious is that a problem with you it's my favorite Parable yeah parable of Vineyard workers Matthew 20 too good that's a great place to to to end final question um what do these ndes um tell us about what this life means and what we're supposed to be doing here yeah I think that's very clear um this life is all about love it's about learning to love freely forever and why I say that is you know the Bible tells us that we are living in the knowledge of Good and Evil in heaven we're going to live just in the knowledge of good yeah but there's still free will the Angels could Rebel some did yeah sure and and so I believe that God has temporarily put us in a taste of heaven and a taste of hell just a taste I mean we think the suffering is horrible or we think the joys are great neither are even close it's just a muted taste so that we will see what is missing is god wow you know he's not completely missing he's holding back evil his holy spirit is convicting of sure sin and judgment righteousness as it says but but and all his good gifts of love and joy and enjoyment those are his gifts and he's wooing us to himself but he wants us to love him and follow him and correlate correlating directly with that is how we love and treat one another yeah and this is what Jesus said you know you can sum up all the Commandments the first and greatest love God with all you've got yeah and the second which can't be taken away is love your neighbor as much as you love yourself do those two and you fulfill all the Commandments of scripture and I think that's what we are learning to do here and so for those who haven't given their heart to God that's the first step because you can't love God I if you don't accept this Incredible Gift he's given through Christ that he has paid for all your wrongs and why did he do that he did that because he wants us in relationship yeah and and he's got to be just though sure and you're not going to you're not going to make up for all those wrongs of the past you can't go back in the past you know yeah and and so what he does is he pays for it so that simply a heart turning back to him can be reconnected because the problem in life is we're disconnected from the source of love and life sure and then we walk through life with him hopefully becoming more like him so that his love spreads through us to others that's how that's why Jesus taught us to pray your kingdom come your will be done on Earth as it is in heaven but how does that happen only through me when I'm willing yeah sure he gives us that agency it's amazing and and it's also amazing how it all comes back to love and that's what I get from your books from when we talk is um love really is at the center of uh the heart of God it's who he is and um and I I it it strikes me that it is uh it is a call to um love each other and not just love God like obviously we want to be you know religious about it we love God but but we show that by how we take care of each other man in an election year Well everybody's divisive everybody's torn apart like uh we need to remember this we need to remember this um but the the the thing that really stood out is this idea of God who is not only knows you more than anyone knows you but he gets you more than anyone gets you and he's for you more than anyone's for you and even more he enjoys you he enjo enjoying him you know I have two little granddaughters I love to give them good gifts and enjoy it with them yeah that gives me joy well do you think I'm better bigger a more Supreme Being than God right no it's like all that love you have times yeah forever so oh I could go on and on John we could go on and on all day you got to get back to Austin yeah I got to go do a wedding y so preacher life thank you so much for being with us hey I've loved it thanks thanks so much yeah I know you've been a blessing to so many and you've blessed us here today so we're grateful well thank you best of luck with the book all right thanks all right bye-bye

Channel: Maybe God Podcast

Views: 32,652

Keywords: supernatural, encounter, shocking, god, miracle, testimony, survivor, mystery, jesus, story, skeptic, apologetics, experience, faith, uplift, afterlife, death

Id: cSdlVaPHcP8

Length: 86min 14sec (5174 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 21 2024