"After COVID, my family were worried about my mental health" ⚽ Matt Le Tissier | Up Front

when they talk about Winners you assume that everybody goes into football because they want to win trophies I didn't I always viewed football as an entertainment industry right my first thought when I go out on a football pitch is I want to entertain people today it was kind of ridiculous that the second was put in a position where he'd never have taken a professional career that's the most horrific decision from an England manager I think I've ever seen in my life what did you make of Nathan Jones because because it was because it was a car crash wasn't it it was it wasn't at that level was it I found that so hard to deal with so hard to not say anything about over the last few years and that's what I think cost me my job this is up front with me Simon Jordan I believe they're a lot of vacuous uninformed unchallenged opinions out there I want to get to the bottom line and cut through the nonsense so with this podcast with William Hill I'm going to get people with strong views who think they can stand them up to proper scrutiny there's a good chance I might learn something along the way and more importantly so might you joining me in today's episode is a rare breed in football a one club man who spent 16 years at Southampton considered a Maverick nicknamed a god but overlooked on the international stage Matt Letizia welcome to upfront saying son good to be here I feel very privileged to be honest with you because it's Third Time Lucky for me um 22 years ago I had a brief phone conversation with you on and Glenn Cockrell trying to entice you to come to Crystal Palace a couple of years ago I tried to ask you to come on a show and they turned me down I didn't tell you that Third Time Lucky I was busy here I was busy all right okay um look the whole subject matter is to talk about you and the various things in your life and obviously find some relatability in all the things we talk about but what I often do is start when I talk to people like you is talk about their makeup and the mechanics of their achievements and where it came from and and one of the sort of stocking stocking trade questions is sort of defining a winner I like to define a winner but also more importantly like you guys that have competed at the highest level and achieved things and and got to a level of great recognition and achievements as to what you think a winner looks like um and would you class yourself with what it looks like would you Clash yourself as well yeah absolutely I'll class myself as one um I've classed myself as a winner in life I I've got to the age of 54. and I can honestly say I've never really woken up on a day where I had to go to work and thought I don't really fancy this today and if you can wake up every day go and do your job and it not feel like a job then I think you're a winner because I tell you why I asked because ultimately there was this debate the other day on on a show that I did with Martin Cleon where he was talking about Arsenal yep and it was talking about the players being winners and Ferdinand went after him and basically said a winner is somebody that wins something and somebody that elects to compete in the biggest space and wins in that particular environment and and the reasons why I ask you about it is because you obviously elected to stay at one particular football club and take ostensibly the opportunities that existed in that space and some would say that's comfortable that's easy and I suppose I'm pushing them notion because I think winning is giving your best all the time that's what I think there's lots of definitions of what a winner is um you know I've given one and people who have been in successful football teams and have won things will say that being a winner is that uh and and I completely get why they would say that um for me as a young kid growing up in Guernsey uh from about the age of eight years of age I can remember having two Ambitions in my life one of them was to be a professional footballer and the other one was play for England I got to achieve those by the age of 25. and for me that's a win that's a win for me nobody from Guernsey had ever played for England before ever right and so to have that ambition as an eight-year-old kid that was quite something right because I spoke to souness um Graham sunes the other day who who described you as the most talented player that he'd either played with or managed wow um he talked about your preference why do you keep dropping me then well that's a different discussion he talks about your preference from McDonald's um and and Stuart Pierce called you the milkshake King today um but um but he talked about this Talent this natural talent and the fact that given soon as his back catalog of who he's played for and where he's managed right it's pretty much up there with accolades isn't it and he doesn't doesn't dispense them too no freely I know that so does that wow does that not lend you to the conclusion that there were better opportunities for you and bigger outcomes that you could have had when you look back retrospectively maybe not at the time so you look back on it yeah possibly there were there were things I could have I could have done I could have joined I could have joined spurs in 1990 could have joined Liverpool in 92 I think it was could have joined Chelsea in 1995 but um when you say could have I mean were there offers into in four years when I was 21. right yeah I actually signed the contract the joints first and changed my mind venables yeah in 1990. so uh I often say this when people say how come you didn't get so many capture England um and you think it's because of that in 1990 when I turned Spurs down Terry was manager and what when my age went back to him and said no Matt's not good Matt's not coming made around me back and said Terry wants to speak to you because I hadn't spoken to Terry just Representatives at Spurs and and I went I don't want to speak to him I made my mind up right and then in 1995 when Chelsea tried to buy me Glenn Hollow was manager right and the exact same thing happened okay and I went I've made my mind I don't want to speak to him now that was hard for me because Glenn was my hero as a kid I was a Spurs fan growing up Glenn hoddle was my absolute Idol I based everything I did on a football pitch on hold on Glenn hoddle and Liam Brady to a to a certain extent as well I wanted I wanted my left foot to be decent like Liam Brady's as well um so those those two guys were my heroes so to turn him down and go now I don't want to talk to him that was quite a big thing and then he became the next England manager as well so uh and both of them kind of gave me a couple of opportunities but not many the one thing that I would say when people say you can get he didn't get as many caps it was a lot harder I think back in the 90s we had a lot more really good Forward Thinking English players um so you know you had Peter Beasley Teddy sharing them uh you know people like Robbie Fowler and Stan collymore and Ian Wright and Les Ferdinand all these guys that probably you know you look at their ability and and a lot of them would say should have had more caps Andy Cole the amount of goals that he scored and the Caps that he got so there's there was a lot of talent around there and obviously Gaza um you know and Gaza was probably a big a big part of that the disappointing thing from my point of view is that I was given three starts for England I got eight caps but only three of them were were starts one of those games was abandoned after 27 minutes so I played the game in Dublin yeah and the other two appearances were three years apart that's not really any great opportunity to show what you can do at International level so what do you tribute that to them I attribute that to the the team that I was playing at the time um I think there was definitely a big Club bias in the 90s um and also attribute that to the reputation that I was given by the media as well of being a uh a luxury lazy player now uh I was labeled that very early on you know unfit and it's very difficult when you get that reputation as a teenager to shake that off for the rest of your career because you get labeled now and it's you know I mean I I always say to people if I how how could I have been lazy if in 540 appearances for a team for the majority of that were in the bottom after the table 540 appearances I scored 209 goals probably created another 100 or so I couldn't do that if I was lazy when we were in uh at the bottom of the table in uh does it does it annoy you or did it annoy you at the time being called lazy I think I thought it was unfair yeah but you can't fight against the machine so I I took it 209 goals in the amount of games that you played I think 165 of them at 443 League games something like that wanna if you divided that Pro rotted it by 38 games in the Premier League you'll be scoring 14 goals a season every season which is attributed as great success for Jermaine Defoe being a prolific goal scorer in the Premier League it's an interesting Dynamic isn't it how people can make figures represent it one way and yet characterize people in another it is it was a very different time uh back then there was not we weren't so much stats based back then it was very opinion based yeah um you know I was a I was a 21 year the year I won the young Player of the Year in 1990. I scored 24 goals that season I was 21 years of age scoring 24 goals now if you bring that forward to today's football and you put an English midfielder yeah and and uh at 21 years of age scoring 24 goals in the season do you think he would be in the England squad you would uh you're on the balance of probability should or shouldn't be okay so during that season I didn't even get a mention for being in an England squad scoring 24 goals at the age of 21 not not a mention you've got an interesting philosophy because I half agree with the idea of what a winner looks like which is the ability to go out and do something only do what you want to do because you enjoy it in the ability to have an opportunity to have to do it but I also think you've got to Define it by some form of meritocracy yeah I think do you think you were did you enjoy being a sort of the I I suppose the embodiments of a big fish in a small pond was that part of your imagination 100 and I've always I've always admitted that I've always enjoyed being the the small fish in the big pond or the big fish in the small pond um and I've and that's something that is part of my makeup so what people have to realize about me when they talk about winners uh you assume that everybody goes into football because they want to win trophies I didn't I always viewed football as an entertainment industry all right and my my first thought when I go out on the football pitch is I want to entertain people today now on the back of that entertaining people for me is about creating the scoring goals that's what that's what people can watch football matches for so on the back of that that leads to results but that wasn't my primary motivation my primary motivation was to enjoy myself in a full page because I knew I was good at it and I wanted to make people happy by watching me play football did you think of yourself as a Maverick did I think of myself as a Maverick I knew I was different yeah I knew I was different I knew I had a different mentality to a lot of people and I knew I had a very different skill set to pretty much everybody I played with but on the back of that I was always the first person to admit that there was stuff that my teammates could do that I couldn't do I needed them to be able to do their job for me to be able to do my job do you think staying at Southampton I mean you've talked about it as being comfortable um because you're a ballsy character you don't care what you're saying you don't you stand by it right yeah and the fact you didn't want to talk to venables and you didn't need to talk to Glenn hoddle because you'd made your mind up show certain resilience and stubbornness and a belief in yourself and a fortitude to stay with what you think and you're not necessarily there for turning yeah do you think staying at one Club is beyond the comfortable side of things is it a combination of loyalty and comfort or does it or influence it or does it really move into the territory with a bit of a lack of ambition there was definitely a loyalty part of that I always felt like I felt like I owed Southampton football club something they gave me the opportunity to achieve my see I like that yeah transaction isn't it you know absolutely it's a two-way transaction yeah like the Ivan Tony situation now which is the basis of Brentford on standby I mean he needs to sign a new contracts absolutely yeah yeah absolutely so there was there was always that I always had that feeling that this football club gave me the chance to achieve my childhood ambitions so that was always one thing the other thing was the the fans at certain football club were right from the very first time I set foot on a pitch were unbelievably good to me yeah uh and I've always felt like I owed them something as well but there there was also that bit of me that was you know happy to be in a comfortable situation in my football club where I knew I could play football the way that I wanted to play it and I probably couldn't have done that if I'd have gone to a bigger club with bigger ambitions I would have had to have towed the line a little bit more uh I would have had to have probably taken things a lot more seriously than I actually did um and you know got that winning mentality instead of an entertaining mentality do you think um modern players any of the things that you've just said pop into their psyche um don't think so I think if if it does it would be a very very rare rare very rare thing to do I think in this day and age it's I think the word loyalty is is kind of almost gone from football completely now yeah I mean I've always had this feeling about loyalty that it's a fans are the ones that have the predominant loss here even they sometimes desert the course when it gets a bit um but I always felt that loyalty was based upon if I give you a contract a mat Letizia played for me and I'll give you a three-year contract I expect you to do your very best for me for three years at the end of those three years we park company or we don't part company that's the end of it and if you kiss the badge during the meantime then fantastic but realistically speaking loyalty was a slightly slightly misguided premise but when you look at say the sentiment that you deployed which was being a one club man you read a few of them around you know Tony Adams Stephen Gerrard John Terry uh Ryan Giggs um and in Spain Carlos broil um yeah but why do you think it is so rare now um I think the opportunities that come along with transfers are quite tempting in terms of the uh amount of money you can make somewhere else Bosman rule one of the things yeah one of the things in in my day that was probably the big difference now is that I could so back in the mid 90s when Chelsea tried to buy me for example I think I was on about I was about two grand a week something like that and if I'd have moved to Chelsea I'd have probably gone maybe 10 grand a week right so so the the jump is you know it's quite a big jump relatively speaking when you're talking about in today's terms you know if I was at Southampton now for example and I was earning 40 Grand a week and Man City came in for me 250 Grand a week I mean even that might have tested my loyalty right that's a lot that's a lot of money of course you know two grand to 10 grand and and that's the other thing I never I wasn't in football to become rich I never took up football to become rich I never took up football to become famous and I never took up football to become rich I took up football because I was good at it yeah and I loved the sport and I loved putting a smile on people's faces watching the things that I could do on a football field because I think that's an interesting I should say this is some of the players when I had young Wayne Welch Palace and Spurs trying to buy him um we just got promoted from the championship Wayne was a young Starlet playing for the 17s 18s at England and and he was coming up to a contract we know and Spurs tried to get him Daniel back toward me and try to get him um and and I said to him look do you want to rephrase that I mean that doesn't sound good that Daniel backlawed you yeah it doesn't sound very good it doesn't sound good yeah well we'll edit that a bit thank you very much yeah um Daniel tried to uh uh uh I was gonna say bend me over [Laughter] um our young players at Palace and uh Daniel leave me trying to put a flank on me and get him uh without necessarily um uh I would say tapping up we'll leave that as an allegation that's to be substantiated but what I said to to to Wayne was um learn your trades develop your career if you're a good player you're going to get the opportunities because it's interesting that you talked about because there's very few pulpers that are good at football if you're good at it and you get an opportunity to be successful you're playing for a football club then your set your talent will come to the surface and you'll not be a secret and you'll get a move yeah so it's interesting that you've got that as part of your thinking which is you know I wanted to be good I don't think it exhibits enough in the modern day football I think there's too much money around I think there's too many people in up people's ears yeah I think too many people are being influenced by the wrong outcomes not that this is a direct link to that but what do you make of Harry Kane's situation and the thinking behind the choices that he's made I mean I know that he tried to the allegation is that he tried to get our man city a year ago and probably the interview of Gary Neville didn't help the calls and probably having his kid brother as an agent probably didn't help him much either because he's not plugged into the real understanding of how to do big deals can you relate to Harry Kane can you put yourself in his shoes and think what his thinking is yeah 100 I can I mean Harry's obviously become uh Spurs all-time leading goal scorer which will be something that will you know that's that's a legacy that's a proper Legacy um you know I would have loved to have done that at Southampton I didn't quite catch mcshannon which is something that annoys me to this day yeah but I I think what Harry has done at Spurs has been incredible the only person who knows what's in his head and what he thinks and what he wants to achieve in his life is is Harry himself I suppose would be considered a big Club but he's already in that big Club Space in it and he's and he's not gonna be like me and have to work for the rest of his life you'd be getting 100 Grand a week right so you'd have the same situation or whatever okay yeah well you need that to prop up your fast food diet right see that's a myth as well see that whole McDonald's thing Glenn Cockrell was your captain at Southampton and he's the one that told me it but and it was supported by souness and sunris also told me that he tried to get you to change try to get your your routine to be a little bit different try to get you to um to conform to what was his way of thinking and you pull the thighs pulled the thigh or something went up leave him let him get on what he was doing he's winning games first he's the most talented player I've ever had play for me I'll let it alone yeah um so it's not true so Glenn cockle saying you ain't McDonald's certainly not not on the way to a game I would never I pretty much meal with chicken nuggets never it was never ever and I didn't re I didn't actually like never I didn't like the burgers from McDonald's already would you prefer wimpy um I'm a fish and chip man really much better yeah bad sausage and chips from it's probably the one if I went to McDonald's what they're talking about as well I used to go there before training yeah but there's this thing that thinks that I I lived on burgers and stuff and I didn't I didn't even like the bogus from McDonald's quite frankly uh but their sausage named muffins were quite good I didn't have that every day and I certainly never have it on the day of the game I would never have I would never have done that wasn't there an element of until we had the sort of Wenger Revolution yeah you'd have been caught in between two stores wouldn't you yeah two cultures yeah there was not a lot of sports science in our day you were very successful and very prolific in fact you've missed one didn't you in penalties I have this thing all right and a lot of you guys won't like it and Martin Kian doesn't like it and Stuart Pierce didn't like it ideal Destiny the course to it Pierce across the studio a bottle of a missing a penalty of World Cup and I like Stuarts a lot and at that moment he didn't like me very much but I questioned Harry Kane it's very easy for me to sit there and say something but as a professional footballer I think you take a penalty you should score that's your job yeah but and that's what it's there for I think I think I feel I feel embarrassed that I missed one right I mean how much of a skill in terms of technique because obviously with the with the moniker of you being one of the most gifted players that we've seen and that's being supported by people that you've played for and you're probably thinking yourself anyway um how much of of technical ability and and and and and a variety of other things make somebody because I remember growing up with Ray Stewart as a west end product he said walk down the middle and smash it right yeah yeah yeah uh I think for me penalty taking is probably I think it's probably about 90 of it is right in your head and 90 of this is the way you approach it I think if you're going to be a penalty taker you have to look forward to taking penalties you have to embrace that situation you've got to be really comfortable with the entire football stadium watching you and you only for that Split Second but I'm picking up on my observation about the observation that's made by a lot of people about the principle of bottling because people said that Harry Kane bottled it I think he did because if it's in your mind for what what no one saved it I was wrong I called Stuart Pierce a bottle uh for missing that penalty in 1990 and then I realized that the goalkeeper saved him so that's not as much that but but our case if you miss the target you're saying it's but it's correct if you missed a penalty if the goalkeeper makes a world-class save and and you've had a real good go at it and the goalkeeper makes a brilliant save yeah then you have to give credit to the goalkeeper you do if you've missed the targets and or I get that I get I'm missing out of a bottling missing the target from 12 yards as a professional footballer in a situation where you are the chosen penalty taker that's probably not a good look but is it you know is it is it boiling it you you could only the only person that knows if they bottled it or not is the person taking the penalty because they know what's going on between their ears what's the alternative so I'm going to Target what else can it be then so I listened to Paul Mercer and tell a story um where he had a penalty at Bramble Lane he said he put the ball down on the penalty spot right and he walked back and he looked at the goal and he knew he couldn't score yeah right and and he said it was just he said that there couldn't the golden the goal the goalkeeper looked massive this goal look really small and he just knew he couldn't score but he said even though he felt that he couldn't turn around to one of his teammates he said he couldn't do that because that'll be a sign of weakness so he stepped up and he smashed out over the crossbar that's right so he knew it and that's what I'm talking about the the mentality side of things now that you could you could argue is is bottling it yeah no because I remember again with my side Palace we played Sunderland in a playoff semi-final in 2004. and we won the first leg three two we went to their place bashed them up for 75 minutes with two nil down out of the competition scored a goal in the 90th minute Neil Shipley a year to play with right training at Palace was seven laps around Neil Shipley different discussion he's a big lad but Neil um Neil committed gbh on the goalkeeper and Darren Powell scored the goal to get us back in then we got to a penalty shootout and I watched from afar at a Stadium of Light senior players letting 17 year old kids walk up and take penalties you know Michael Hughes didn't want to take when he got he took one in the end he's like walking to the Gallows yeah um but Wayne Routledge is a 17 year old kid was sent up to take a penalty now I'm watching this senior Pros game what the hell is wrong with you yeah what are you doing that I think that's a big criticism I think you know you could argue that uh with the the penalty issue out in the European championships yep hmm there were some there were some players there that you thought yeah why is he not it was kind of ridiculous that the second was put in a position but he'd never have taken the professional career as the most horrific decision from an England manager I think I've ever seen in my life would you make yourself okay uh I think I'm not enamored with him uh I think he's done the bare minimum of what should have been expected given the teams that we played against I agree I agree I make the exact same case in point because everyone gets on this bandwagon about what we've achieved and how we've got to World Cup semi-final and how we've got to a European Championship final and I asked the question who have we beaten that we shouldn't have beaten and look at the positions we were in in those games where we should have gone on absolutely and the decisions that were made were made were responsible for us not not kicking on so yeah I think he's done the bearment yeah I mean because I look at the Italian game and I look at the decisions that were made uh when we are winning this game and the only time we change it is when they've scored yep yep I thought they were the both the Croatia and the Italy game where we go wonderlap and we don't go to kill the game obviously sit back and we invite we invite the team on because I mean exactly the same I felt that I call him four-leaf clover boy because I think some of the managers that had were previously could have had those drawers even when you play Colombia their best player won't fit yeah you know and we play the Germans that are shadow of themselves and the only time we put we that's why I was so keen and and enthusiastic to see us beat France because that would have shut me right up in my tracks yeah I put people like me back in my box which is basically you've now beaten somebody yeah that on paper the suggestion is you can't you shouldn't yeah without wanting to be too vitriolic do you think that it's um a rewarding of mediocrity with Southgate getting the job in the first place and being continued to be patronized uh I I think what it is actually the more relevant point is who else is there English managers I think I think I think I think in Englishman should manage England why because it's you're representing your country and you should be from that country but why it's your pride in your country and if you're gonna have an International Tournament where all your players have to be English although they've changed them rules now as well uh I I think your manager is still part and your manager should be under the same rules as your players should be because you're all part of that same Squad so why is there a different rule for a manager his eligibility than there is for the players when you're all one team that's my that's my thoughts on it but I would prefer to say what would you prefer to see would you okay I'm going to cut a question you can tell me what you prefer to see would you prefer to see a winning England team or a team that has an England manager that's English um I would prefer to the winning England team with an England manager yeah but if you had to have one of the other content was sort um I have this uh kind of innate feeling inside of me about fairness and about and about trying to do things properly and I think to do things properly I've my feelings are that if you're a manager of a national team you should be that nationality yeah I don't disagree in an ideal world but I'm also we live in a globalized world and I look at it well and we might hate it but it happens to this statement of fact doesn't it I mean we are we are we are affected by all manner of things around the world we've opened up our Marketplace everything in this country is being bought by everybody else besides the people that live in it so I'm very much a pro a proud Englishman I want our country to be proud of itself I want us to be the Best in Class I want us to achieve things so if so if you would prefer England to win the world cup with an English manager or with a non-english manager or does it not really matter to you well I don't think it really matters to me that much in an ideal utopian World I'd like it to be completely indigenous so that we've got an England manager that was capable of leading the England side we've had one before called Brian Clough and he wasn't given an opportunity because he stepped into the area that I've alleged to you all which is a Maverick yeah I wasn't prepared to accept the status quo yeah um and and probably would have been very successful in not accepting it but it would have made people uncomfortable and you can't make people uncomfortable in this country can you no that's not a good thing not allowed I just want to touch upon Harry Kane once more yeah and not to get you into clickbait territory but just to get a perspective on it yeah um do you think football fans would kind of accept how he came prioritizing prioritizing personal accolades over staying with Spurs a group of Spurs fans recently and all of them to a man said you know what if he went we wouldn't have any complaints he's he's given his time here he's done everything that he can in his in his in his ability that he's got to try to win Spurs a trophy it hasn't worked I think Harry can hold his head high in the fact that he's done his job and he's probably been let down by the players around him if every other player in that Tottenham team was doing their job as competent as Harry Kane was doing here they would have won a trophy by now all right I'm going to move on to something that's um probably dear to your heart albeit there's been a slight Detachment of the relationship recent times for a variety of reasons but Southampton yeah obviously they've gotten relegated they've got them relegated before yeah and they've gone into Administration as a football club previously yeah um and they've come back they spent a lot of time out of the Premier League got dropped all the way down to League one didn't they and taju took over and bought a player for me Joseph front and built back up and got up and back up the table thanks very much for that by the way it was great for us it was a white dress it wasn't it did a really good job for us yeah yeah nice bad nice lad I um Neil I think Neil Warnock was a manager they didn't I think he I think Neil thought he was too nice there was that was the best two million pound Southampton I've ever spent I thought it was two million I mean you know I didn't get two million for it no no let me finish uh what did you know that I don't I thought it was a million pound for Jose and a million pound for Ricky Lambert ah so in while we were in League one right so that's the two million that I'm talking about so you can tell me if it was different that that's not what yeah Nicola Cortez who was the architect of everything successful at Southampton everything was down to Nicola um when you look at South Hampton this season I know Martin Simmons yeah I think it's quite a good lad yeah um uh this is Southampton CEO where do you you've got a new ownership model and for them a new owner not an ownership model yeah for them it's a car crash isn't it you know the first season they've been in control uh in Soul control Clank they've gone through the floor after investing a lot of money where do you like the blame it there I think the biggest portion because you can't just lay it on one person um when the club gets relegated there's obviously multiple things there well they make the case about recruitment don't know they're talking about the fact they've got a lot of young players they shouldn't have enough senior players in the dressing room to balance it off I I think the the majority of the of the blame lies with the recruitment policy for this season you know we've spent nearly 140 million quid this season yeah we've never done that in our history ever without selling somebody else for for big money um and you have to look at that and say how can we after having spent that amount of money be detached at the bottom of the Premier League I don't think you can look at the actual owners themselves you know they've they've put their hands in their pockets to a serious to a serious extent and gone right we're gonna back you here's here's a whole bunch of money that you've never had before but blindly backing you yeah because no one would no one would suggest understanding 140 million quid on a series of young players when the balance in the dress room isn't right it's good business so yeah recruitment recruitment for me was probably the biggest part the players themselves got to take a look at themselves because I saw some woeful performances this season and honestly I was I was at the the game when they got relegated against Fulham and seriously some of those players made me look like a Workhorse okay it was incredible I've sat in that in that stadium and watched a team go down without a fight right and I and for all the accusations that were leveled at me and my career the one you would never have thrown at me was that when we were in a relegation scrap I did not hide it you didn't understand it for him yeah you know and and what I witnessed in that game against Fulham was not nice do you think they were right to take Hassan noodle out um I think at the time I could understand the decision the club hadn't really moved forward in terms of uh where we were when he took over now you could argue that he wasn't really backed however this season not all of that 104 some of that was in January when he wasn't there so it was about 80 I think in the summer that we spent which is still still so um he was backed for the first time how much say did he have in those transfers I don't know um I liked Ralph personally uh as a coach I liked the way that he tried to get his teams to play I thought sometimes he had deficiencies in terms of he kept trying to go back to a three at the back which our players were not capable of playing and every time we did it we just got smashed um some of his substitutions were bizarre uh in football in-game management where you think it was time so I think I could understand why the decision was made then once you've made that decision you then you then have to get it right what did you make of Nathan Jones because because it was because it was a car crash on it it was it wasn't at that level was it but I don't think it was at that not at that level in terms of his ability to coach because I think they thought they made some really educated decisions based upon the numbers that came out and the reasons but it was his ability to manage Premier League footballers was a problem on it uh yeah and I think his ability to uh come across well in his press conferences as well I thought it started just a little bit bizarre and the players will be listening to that and finding anything they can use as an excuse to the reasons for their performance is not coming up to Snuff well you know that you know that more than most do you think they're in a position Southampton to bounce back uh it appears from uh the statements that have been made so far from the sport Republic that you know they're still willing to to be there and back the club um so we've got no blue point of view not really uh from that point of view I guess it all depends on how many how many of those players kind of we lose the you know the few decent ones that were he's gonna go the only yes I would imagine so I would imagine so and um and and a few of the other again we could get rid of them right yeah yeah but like Harry Kane I don't think any Sams and fans would be great big questions move right now I mean I suppose we've answered this question but I want to weave him into the conversation anyway because he's popping up now at Chelsea I mean he was exciting at Southampton pochettino he went on to develop a good side at Spurs I I think he's a bridesmaid I think anyone can win in France with PSG and I think I'm yet to be convinced that he's an overall winner pochettino and to go and manage Chelsea doesn't matter what people suggest about top bowling right now you have to win sooner rather than later yeah um but Southampton since pochettino I've pretty much regressed though haven't they even with the case that we make for hazard Hotel not quite do you not think so not quite because we had Ronald Kuhlman right so Ronald Kuhlman was more successful at Southampton than pochettino was which kind of tends to get for God yeah you're right yeah we finished eight Thunder yeah under Ronald's Minds we finished seventh and sixth I think we had European football um Claude hated now this was but that was interesting because we finished uh the season that that pul took us to eighth uh and everybody was going oh he shouldn't have shouldn't have been sacked he shouldn't have said he got us to wait which which sounds great but from where we were the season before where I think we'd also finished eighth the season before but we'd finished eighth with 17 less points right under pure and so the bar was lower the so the points were a lot lower the performances and the level of entertainment oh my god do you see any parallels between Southampton and Brighton because once upon a time I remember there was two academies in this country that were really revered and I'm going to take credit from one of them because Palace was a great Academy out came bus stop it came uh Victor Moses out came Nathaniel Klein and who you lot bought um yeah out came um Wilfred um and on and on I can go and then the Southampton Academy produces uh Theo Walcott Alex oxlade chamberlim Gareth Bell and I know my mate Rupert load took a lot of pride in the reflective Glory of that but do you see and Southampton were always one of these clubs it seems that were constantly asked to replenish yeah they produced players they saw the vision in certain players got them in the side played well someone else come along and played nicked him yeah and there's an element of that's going on at Brighton do you see similarities there is an inevitability like Southampton couldn't keep on replenish it and keep on having to buy cheaply selling High sadio Armani goes out the door because remember goes off to Liverpool and the Lana yeah Gareth belt et cetera et cetera et cetera Etc it's really difficult I mean you know yourself how hard it is to keep hold of a player who is being coveted by one of the big boys um and that is football you know the real the harsh reality of football is that 99 of all football clubs are selling clubs yeah it's just at what level you're at to sell on yeah absolutely everything's for sale someone's prepared to pay the price right absolutely so um so it is incredibly difficult and that's why it's so hard to break into you know the real top echelons of football unless you now have what used to be hundreds of millions is now you know you're talking about billions now to to try and break into uh that level where you're where you're really challenging with the big boys so it is I I think Brian what Bryant have done have been incredible um do you think it's just do you think I mean and they sustain it yeah I get the impression that they're miles ahead of everybody else in because I mean whilst data is only as good as what you do with it the understanding of what you're buying and the reasons why you're buying it and the thought process is about not the malleable mentality that that people think it is yeah but I get the impression that Brighton are really really in a groove right now I really understand what they're doing and why they're doing it and they're probably a couple of years ahead of everyone else yeah but do you think there's a possibility that Brighton could find themselves in a similar situation because every time they produce top players some bug is going to come along and meet the Buy price aren't they absolutely well and not just it's not just on the field as well you know if you start getting a recruitment Department that is doing well they're going to get the absolutely and that's happened to us you know and so it's really difficult to keep replenishing and replenishing it at some point you know you will get it wrong on occasionally because football you know nobody gets every decision right yeah absolutely I'm going to move you on to punditry um and your uh involvement with that yeah you were part of soccer Saturday [Music] um which was I think phenomenal I think phenomenal because we're staring at a group of guys talking about something with a teleprinter and I used to watch it for hours um and you find yourself We Made It Fun well this is it I was going to say to you what what do you put down the success of it too because it is successful it it it was successful I was successful they made big decisions obviously changed the direction of that they did um the camaraderie between the between the panel we all knew how to push each other's buttons as as you know you know too well from working with Jim um because I I listened to you and I can I can see the similarities with what's happening but the great thing was we could have these really debates we all loved our football that's the first thing yep so first thing was we all still loved football we loved watching football we're passionate about our teams and that came across I think to the people watching the show uh secondly we all knew that we could have really good debates on things we could have polarized opinions and we could have a proper argument about it but we knew when that subject was finished we would move on and we'd still all be mates you know we wouldn't fall out over our opinions we had sensible grown up sometimes growing up adult conversations about things and we made it fun and I think that's what that's what made it so popular what drove the changes in your view what drove the changes um was it diversity driven I think the yeah I mean once once Comcast and bought Sky it changed overnight yep it changed overnight and all of a sudden it was it was diversity and uh inclusion and all that stuff um so I guess please didn't you wasn't didn't you say that the reasons why they're part of companies I hate using the word sacked because it's one of those media words in it but but you you said the reasons why you were party companies because your views on Coronavirus uh I think partially yeah I think that was partially to do with it partially doing my my views on black lives matter yeah not wearing the badge on on Sky uh I don't think that that went down very well I was quite critical of um the mainstream news media on my social media why didn't you worry about I wouldn't have worn it and principally I don't agree with some of the sentiments behind it not just because it was indexed to a political movement but I also was uncomfortable with the allegation that our society was institutionally racist absolutely and that's exactly why I I wouldn't I didn't I'd kind of racism yeah yeah oh absolutely but if you think that if you think that by wearing a badge like that you're going to change the mind of the small minority of people in this country who are racist if you think that by wearing a badge that's going to change it if you're living in Cloud Cookie Land because the people who are racist and I think that there is a a very tiny minority of people in my opinion in this country who are who are racist I agree on both sides I think the majority of people in this country are good people and don't see skin color and I think that is getting better with each generation I'm not saying it hasn't been in the past but I from what I've seen growing up I've seen a massive shift from my generation to my daughter's generation now in how they see people of course and it's getting better all the time so I and I think we don't talk about that often enough in a positive light um and so yeah that was I think one of the reasons why they didn't like me very much but one of the things that um alongside that scenario is I'm really unhappy at this moment in time with the agenda rising of sports and the leveraging of it and I know I wrote an article in a newspaper the other day about why can't sport just be about sports absolutely and and the only people that don't want it to be about sport are the activists that want to highlight their particular course they want to hijack sport because sport is so popular with people and politics is not popular with people and the only way politics can get their noses into people's everyday lives is if they hijack Sport and that is for me that is not acceptable but some people would say it has always been thus some people would say that you and I are idealists you know 1936 that this is the classic case of when it should never have been leveraged because however there was a situation where you should prove the point that politics and Sport should never be put in the same place is the foul messages that Hitler was putting out in the 1936 Olympics right so that should have been a blueprint for never having used it again absolutely because I'm constantly confronted with the idea that my my sentiments of you know which cause it's like George Orwell's expression is one eight one animal is more equal than another which causes more worthy because it's moment in time you've got you know you've got climate crisis you've got homelessness you've got homophobia you've got misogyny you've got transphobia you've got islamophobia you've got knife crime you've got cost of living you've got inflate every calls you can think of and I make the argument that you know uh we'll have calls calls calls and a side order of sports yeah and it can't be right that that is what sport is for sport to me I know it will chime with you because you you're in the business of wanting to entertain is the ultimate in escapism absolutely it should be nothing else that's exactly what it should be uh it should be escapism and and that's why I think it's been targeted yeah um by the by the political people uh to and it's just been so frustrating for me to see the amount of fear-mongering that has gone on and they and they've infiltrated sport to continue that um and I've I've found that so hard to deal with so hard to not say anything about over the last few years and that's what I think cost me my job does it wrinkle with you I mean because I've just made the observation and I say you are on the bus about certain things I don't agree with certain things anybody you could you're never ever gonna find anyone in your life who agrees with everything that you say no absolutely and we've got the adults about having a conversation and actually spend your whole life in an echo chamber all right and then you'll always agree with what everyone else it says because you're in the same space so I think it's right for people to have different views I don't like the idea that someone being someone has a different view should be shut down and not had that view debated I don't believe that people should be able to say irresponsible things and if they're in positions of influence just be able to say whatever they want without any consequence because whilst I believe in freedom of speech which I know you do it doesn't come with freedom of consequence so so who's the Arbiter of that who becomes the opposite this is where this is the really interesting one but I mean I think who judges that well I think who judges what's hate speech well yes who'd you put in charge of that no that's that's a that's a useful qualifications of those people got that that nobody else on this but I have got to be added to yourself anyone else can speak there was self-evidence examples yeah exactly I mean but I again when we're talking about certain situations that have manifested themselves over the last two or three years there was an unhealthy inability to be able to to advance certain points whether it was the Great Barrington declaration or covert or a variety of other things about racism where people ran away and didn't want to say anything because it had too much of a consequence for them that leads me to you because you said what you meant and you meant what you said yeah and it's got you this sort of moniker of having The Conspiracy Theory you get into the territory of being an anti-vaxxer and people that I think it's Preposterous because I'm assuming you've had vaccinations in your life you just had you just had a challenge with this one yeah right which by definition doesn't make you an anti-vaxxer it means you've got an issue with one particular part of it yeah but it's taken you from I mean I I don't know if you take this sort of stuff so seriously from lagod to to in certain people's minds and possibly the mainstream to certain extents to a bit of a pariah I mean how does that I don't think you are but other people have and you've got a mainstream broadcaster like Skye they're possibly taken that position but the consequences were were they worth it for you to have your freedom of speech do you feel that actually you couldn't have lived with yourself if you say I'm not doing this I don't believe it I'm standing up for this I don't care I don't I don't toe the line when uh I don't think he's right I won't um never have done and the consequences of that uh meant that I lost my job which you know that's I I I missed that a little bit because I miss working with my mates yeah we've got really good camaraderie fortunately we still get together from time to time we're doing a pundit tour that we've been around the country doing so we still get together um so I I did miss and as I said before I never once woke up on a Saturday morning and thought Oh god I've got to go to work today no it was fun it was it was great so I missed that but uh I wouldn't do anything differently I I've I feel like a a much Freer person not having to toe the line by uh by working for it you think you could have been smarter though because I'm like you right I've got balls and I don't care what I say and I've got strong views and I've said similar things to you along the issues of say racism and Sport along the issues of sports response to the covert policy of this country in terms of uh the Ridiculousness of the way that we handled lockdowns and the way that we uh expected sport to behave from isolation programs and so on so forth yeah I haven't got myself canceled and you have to some extent and you've had a consequence to it so is there a balance between I'm speaking of your mind and getting your point across or is there is there is there a sort of self-harming perspective where you said what you meant you meant what you said and ultimately you reaped the Whirlwind of it no self-harm uh at all uh I have but you have been killed over things and it has pissed you off I have no regrets no regrets whatsoever I've been canceled from like a couple of after dinner speeches yes I saw you on television talking about it because uh some uh people got a bit upset that I was allowed to speak about football to them uh I mean this is the world that we live in my house after dinner speech that I do I talk about football when I talk about my my media career I don't I don't touch on anything else and yet I was being canceled from these from these jobs because you know I'm a conspiracy theorist um which is just beyond the pale really uh and as I said I have no no regrets for anything that's happened I feel I'm probably you were a bit stronger Ukraine a lot happier so the Ukraine thing so my point with the Ukraine thing is that the the whole thing that blew up about the tweet that I retweeted the point of that tweet is to say during times of War both sides will engage in propaganda and if you don't believe that then you'll now have some kind of idiot yeah so that was my point I I could have made the point differently yeah I I and I apologize I actually I did delete the the Twitter I apologize for the tweet I deleted it and said this is how I should have done it and that's what I think we should do in an adult Society if you if you mess up hold your hand up and go I agree with that I I this is what I this is what I actually meant and uh I'm sorry but that doesn't get the air time does it let's move on no it doesn't get there of course it doesn't so that that must piss you off a little bit that there is a characterization of you yeah as a result of it but you know what's what the really strange thing is though Simon is that the media perception of me um is very different to what happens in real life so in my life in my life when I'm out and I I live but it's not that I never completely normal life yeah I'm the same as you make so it's not the punters giving you the gigs though in life is it yeah well to a degree you'll be surprised I still earn enough money to from CBD have the lifestyle that I've had before I was working on Sky I've managed to still be able to generate enough income so that I didn't have to sell my house right right so when you talk about cancel culture and and these people aren't the ones that you're giving you jobs actually some of them are the ones that give me jobs you know there are people giving me jobs on the back of uh the fact that they're grateful to me for standing up for what they believe in as well do you think yeah I think that's true as well I think there's a whole there's a whole different economy out there and a whole set of people out there who actually do think the way they are yeah I can see that and are grateful to me for using my platform to speak up for them who don't have a platform no I can see that do you think that um nearly shape or form I know this is a slightly negative question because negative questions do you think in any shape or form some of the parodying or positioning of You by certain segments of people's view on you now as diminished your standing with your legacy at Southampton and the fact that you are the gold in their minds uh it doesn't it doesn't matter it doesn't matter what happens to me after my career nobody will ever be able to take away the fact that I represented something football club 540 times scoring 209 goals and spent my entire career in the top flight and uh and played a big part in keeping them in that division when the odds were stacked against us quite a lot of the time so nothing can take that away from my legacy I believe what I've done and what I've said has been consistent over the last few years I think a lot of what I've said not everything but a lot of what I've said has come to pass and when you if you were to go back two or three years and I might do it one day oh I think you talk about talk about the stuff that I was I think you're writing about two or three years ago yeah a lot of that stuff has been Justified that being said and your fortitude and your resilience you double down on Avenue you've not been prepared the consistency and you you you are the you're the very same I listen to you on the radio you're consistent in your views and you stand by what you believe in and that's what I've done and people a lot of people uh when I'm out in public respect me for that but has it impacted upon relationships and family and friends because you came off social media for a bit didn't you because of some of the stuff that was going on with trolls yeah that's what's been the Legacy and consequences of this me coming off social media wasn't for my benefit that was for the benefit of the people around me yeah that's my point yeah so so with that in mind so I haven't fallen out with over any any member of my family or close friend right over the last three years I think my family thought I'd gone mad a couple of years ago right they thought I was a bit you know thought they were they were a bit worried for my mental health right and to be fair probably in the early days you know when we didn't have a lot to do and we were locked down and you know I was just bored and I think the world went mad yeah let alone individuals and I just kind of got a bit obsessed with trying to find out what was going on because something didn't feel right to me I spent a lot of time looking into it and I probably neglected my wife and my daughter a little bit at that point because I was too obsessed with trying to find out what was going on and I had to find a better balance in my life I don't I don't I've always said that don't dispute that one of my best mates who has complete the polar opposite opinions than I do who I play golf with on a regular basis my golf partner at a golf club ex-policeman has a completely different view to the world than I have we've had some real serious debates you know and it's got frustrating at times and and we've we've raised voices at each other uh and at the end of the day once we've had that discussion we shake hands we go all right never mind I'll see you tomorrow yeah and and we're grown up about it you know we can have a heated debate and still at the end of the day shake each other's hand and go all right we don't we don't agree on that but let's have a game of golf tomorrow yeah I agree I mean I know life should too many people are entranced in their position and will not move from it but that's okay to not move from it no but I mean I'm offended by the very nature of the fact that you don't have their view yes or they don't have yours that's that's I think there's something about a civilized society where you can have a different position and I don't need you you know what I don't care if you don't want to hold my view yeah exactly you have yours let me know let me have my view don't don't shut me down because you don't agree with what I'm saying and still let me have money do I know it's no not anymore no in fact because you're now having proven contacts a lot of them have come up to me and gone I mean I thought you were mad a couple of years ago but actually looking at what's happened you were right Matt I've really enjoyed it thank you for being that live by today cheers up front with me Simon Jordan is brought to you by William Hill future episodes can be found on YouTube Spotify or wherever you find your podcasts 18 plus please gamble responsibly

Channel: Up Front

Views: 499,577

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Id: _90kCrt5ZU0

Length: 58min 42sec (3522 seconds)

Published: Thu Jun 08 2023