Abraham Joshua Heschel - 1972

I brought these books from home they're only a small portion of the books you've written what was there in your in your life especially your early life that would give you the thoughts to fill so many books a hard work training in the good environment I was very fortunate in a having lived as a child in as a young boy in an environment where there were many people I could Revere people concerned with problems of inner life spirituality of integrity people who have shown great compassion and understanding for other people your life itself has not been an easy life you escaped from Poland just before the Nazis came and what what experiences of life have found their way into these books I would say again my background early upbringing I would criticize my early upbringing as a deficient and mum respect and very rich in another respect deficient in but it's no be called the art of relaxation sports are not a sporting type unfortunately but they reach in moments of exaltation this enabled me to stand a little bit above the circumstances of life into teacher perspective from which I could see the world self to speak from the higher point of view in other words say I was trained as a child to live a life or to strive to live a life which is compatible with the mystery and marble of human existence and learning about it what is the longing about is the role of learning there all of learning was decisive first of all the supreme value ascribed to learning and learning being a source of inspiration learning being the greatest adventure learning being a source of joy and in fact learning for the purpose of discovering of the importance of self discipline the realization namely that the life of our discipline was not worth living perhaps a life without surprise is not worth living you recently told an interview an interviewer that what keeps me alive is my ability to be surprised what what has surprised you lately everything this may be my weakness you know you caught it once a statement from the book effectors yes this there's nothing new Under the Sun and I disagree with entity I would say there's nothing stale Under the Sun except human beings who become stale I try not to be stale and everything is new not to moments I like and a personal thing the two moments are like us never lived this secret of it is a very profound principle and philosophy that I would call the center for the unique do you know that among a billion faces in this world nor two faces are like the other day a person complained to me you went to the Metropolitan Opera is iam and it was bewildered because not to paintings looked alike one of the most arresting titles of your many books would be this one God in search of man is God in search of man did the paradox in fact if God would consult me I would tell him going to sell see he doesn't he's too wise to consult me I would say why do you care about man the biggest message of the Bible of the prophets of Israel is that God takes men seriously you remember he hated Adam Adam and Eve they immediately failed he was disappointed but he kept them alive then they gave birth to two boys very nice boys I'm sure they got some very good excellent education in a private school on a public school I'm not sure but certainly in a good environment they didn't live in the slums you know and you know what one brother did to the other God should have been disgusted he said no I will keep the human species alive I'm waiting maybe someday there will be a righteous generation and throughout history seen by the Bible there's one this acquaintance for God after another they still waiting waiting waiting for mankind which will live by justice and compassion is in search of men now let me say to you there are essentially three points one garden sites are meant to me their family of all of the Bible Bible too it expresses the idea of Judah here about the position of men in the universe now it's terribly important if God is so concerned about men which surprises me again why shouldn't God be concerned more about the let us say a cosmic energy however the Oscar notice a techniques he's interested about widows and orphans in Jerusalem my lord if we were to ask where which it beneath your dignity you gather the universe should be concerned about the poor by the disadvantaged yes he is men is very important to God and a third point the third point would be the nature of religion the nature of religion is not just a long range in feeling of man searching for God I think that God is more in search of men and medicine search of God it doesn't gives us no rest we have four generations for decades for centuries tied to refute the existence of God as if it didn't exist and in spite of everything man is still searching man is still waiting many still longing men have discovered and he's discovering that a man learned without God is like a toaster I brought it overhead it listen but man is searching also because if you'll forgive me a certain there's a certain absurdity a certain purpose Nisour perhaps undiscoverable of purpose let me get cite an example 10 days before Martin Luther King was killed you as a good friend of his addressed a convention of the rabbinical assembly and you said Martin Luther King is a sign that God has not forsaken the United States of America and that ten days later he was dead in the most cruel and the per purposeless fashion that's it's that sort of question that their challenge is faith how do you explain that we understand the Bible properly and very few people do they study the Bible properly we itemize the Bible with tear to pieces instead of immersing in the thoughts of bible you discover that God shares life with men and he gets given men freedom a very questionable gift and the most outstanding gift man has men can do anything when they the first son of the first couple decided to murder his brother they did what he pleased and God did not interfere but that that raises the question oh if you're saying that if God were to control every aspect of man's life that would not be living then that raises the question why pray to God then if God is not going to interfere if God is not going to intervene if God is not going to help what is the role of prayer first of all let us not miss on this thing the nature afraid particularly in Jewish tradition the primary purpose of prayer is not to make requests the primary purpose of prayer is to praise to sing the child because the essence of prayer is a song in men cannot live without a song player may not save us but player Mia make us worthy of being saved players not requesting there is a partnership of God man God needs our help I would define men as a divine need God is in need of men in history he cannot do the job alone because he gave us freedom in the whole hope of mists of Messianic redemption depends on God has undone men we must help him in by each deed we are carry out we either retired or accelerate the coming of adventure we are all in history's tremendous I mean are you belong absurdity yes plays a major role in fact it's the greatest challenge to existence not only to religion the greatest challenge to all activities to political activity to economic activity to all idea of progress in the encounter with absurdity and if I were to be asked what is the meaning of a difficult question to answer in one sentence well I'll ask you what is the meaning of God I would have to use a number of sentences wrong the certainty that there is a meaning beyond a mystery that holiness conquers absurdity and without holiness we will sink in absurdity where is holiness isn't Watson in the Bible is that where one finds holiness it doesn't believe in monopoly I think God loves all men and has given many nations has given all men an awareness of his greatness and of his love and God is to be found in many hearts all over the world not limited to one nation or to one people to one religion but I have to understand again to come back to the problem of uniqueness what has the Hebrew Bible given us in particular that not to be found anywhere else I would say that particular appreciation of the greatness of man of men's tremendous potential 'ti as a partner of God this idea to me is not to be found anywhere else but is that potential of being fulfilled we talked a moment ago about Martin Luther King you've been active in the civil rights movement since I guess the early 60s you marched at that Selma with dr. King I think it's fair to say though that you've written about the monstrosity of inequality I think that's the expression you use ah I think it's fair to say that in the past few years of the American community has hardened its attitude toward equality in jobs housing schools and so on what were how is that carrying out a potential you know a do I have to tell you that life is a drama they have to tell you that we are not in the midst of an automatic progressive development of humanity there are ups and downs at this very moment there's a down there's a depression there is a renewal of prejudice which is a poise as a person committed the biblical faith I would say what keeps Humanity alive is the certain see that we have a father but then Astros have to remember that God is either the father of all men or Roman and the idea of judging a person terms of the black or brown of white is an eye disease you've also said you're an optimist against your better judgment yeah but you're still an optimist I'm still about you first gained prominence as a scholar writing about the prophets is it possible for a modern prophet to come to us was that just pre-biblical again the mr. stern your questions are very rich very complex are very meaningful and since time is so limited and precious I will have to give you short answers and only partial answers the idea of a prophet is complex and consists above all of two things or the message or disrupted sort of the Prophet has to say of some extraordinary claim to an experience which is uh next not given to other man let us ignore the second let us say take the first what's so great about the message of the Prophet but the profit of the kacct I would say the Prophet is a man who is able to hold God and men in one thought at one time at all times this is her great and this is her mounts which means that whatever I do to man I do the gun and I heard the human being like injured God know their thoughts their message continues to be so relevant today that I invented the same I had this experience there's many distinguished philosophers and we got together discuss social contemporary problems that the ultimate source of hope for all of us whether it was a Protestant or a Catholic or secular philosopher but suddenly I reliance on a hope uttered by the prophets of Israel therefore I would say the spirit of the Prophet the Prophet is very mental I've kind of men who combined the very deep love very powerful descent painful Dubuque with unwavering hope the Prophet is a witness to the great mystery or to what I would call meaning beyond the mystery namely God could still be alive and should serve as an example your time are you talking about a rebirth of that of their knowledge in the mouths of others or is that not to be known in identification make a personal statement here I relate the book of the prophets how the large book spent many years and then really this book changed my life because early on my life my great love was learning study and the place where I prefer to live was my study in books and writing and thinking I've learned from the prophets they have to be involved in the affairs of men the affairs of suffering men and I would like to say that one of the saddest things about contemporary life in America is that the prophets are unknown then the complete decline of the Bible in an American education no one knows the prophets there are countless intellectuals who baby gate authorities on literature I've never had the prophets really never been touched by them in this I'm sorry to say is a little bit of a disaster the gate examples we need today are the ancient prophets of Israel I say that this book on the poverty child all changed my life and I think that anybody really the prophet will discover number one that the poverty of the most disturbing people who've ever lived yeah it's not easy to do you mean and they were abrasive and you say the circulation this taping a I bet conscience well you are you a prophet you've been the abrasive at times particularly concerning the Vietnam War you said a great deal about that I wouldn t accept its praise because it's enough for me to say that I am a descendant of the prophets which is a notary statement it is a and claimed almost arrogant enough to say that I am a descendant of the prophets of this called banana B so let us hope and pray that I'm worthy of being a descendant of the path you said during the height of the agitation over the Vietnam War that they it was one of the it was the great religious issue what made the Vietnam War a religious issue because it's a religious issue what does God demand of us primarily justice and compassion what does he condemned above all murder killing innocent people how can I pray and I have on my conscience the awareness that I am co responsible for the death of innocent people in Vietnam in a free society some are guilty all are responsible at this time one year ago I was covering a trial of priests and nuns the beragon trial in Harrisburg Pennsylvania prospective jurors one after another when being questioned by the judge and lawyers said they thought it was wrong for clergymen to be involved in politics that their job is to administer the spiritual needs why don't you stick to spiritual needs it's a very good statement in fact it's such a good statement that if the prophets were alive they would be already sent to jail by these jurors because the prophets mixed into social political issues and frankly I would say that God seems to be a non religious person because if you read the words of God in the Bible he always makes us in politics and in social issues that is the wonder of it the the torment that man has the problem-solving machine that he is that you think is I detect is the essence of being of living a human life yet you see and that is - no but you see a run of the great sins of contemporary education is to give the impression you can solve all problems or there are no problems actually the greatness of men is that he faces problems I would judge a person by how many deep problems he's concerned with but is an illness is not the quest of religion though to give one a sense of inner peace you have to master the meaning of inner peace let me give you her cell example of a person who has no problems let me give you a domestic fictitious picture here stands a man and I'll tell you this is a man who has no problems do you know why is immediate because a man has problems and they're more complicated the more the richer he is the deeper his problems this is our distinction to have problems to face problems life is a challenge not just a satisfaction and the calamity of our time is to juice life to pleasure only I'm not against pleasure but the greatness of life is experienced in facing a challenge rather than just having satisfaction I would be frightened if I were to be ruled by a person who is satisfied so it has the answers to everything in a very deep sense religion has two things first of all it's an answer to the ultimate problems of human existence and it all says another sight it is a challenge goal and it is living in this polarity of these two points but there are so many religions that say come to us and we and you will have no problem we will solve your problems here here's the word of God he he will solve your problem you don't you don't accept that no I don't accept it because it contradicts everything I have learned about life from experience from philosophy from history from the Bible if I look at the Bible God is full of you melt any created man he created man in his own will either some freedom and man is a problem table look at the Bible God is always wrestling with the problem and even God has problems this is a deep ingredient of existence problems and the tragedy of our education today is we are giving such easy solutions become place and have peace of mind everything is fine no wrestling is the issue facing the challenge is the issue would it be a better world if we were all of one religion no would it be less strife no as I can judge that right the judge God's will from history it seems to be the will of God that there would be more than one religion I think it's a very marvelous thing to realize you know if I were to ask the question whether example I think I gave you before whether the Metropolitan Museum should try to introduce that all paintings should look alike or I should like to suggest that all human face should look alike but how would you respond to my proposal hmmm I would be against it I'm glad it's really I think also though in your writings you've indicated that even where one religion has been adopted in the state there's no evidence that that has brought any happiness or any new high points of religious feeling isn't that correct yes I think it is the will of God that they should be religious pluralism one of the most important things in life a human being faces is not only to know how to build a machine but also how to overcome Envy it's an irrational destructive power in every man what are the school do about the secular school nothing so I'm disappointed make an educational system are no levels as proved to be a terrible disappointment religious schools it's a new problem I only wish I could tell you the religious school are doing a perfect job I would say religious school deserve support because they are doing partly a good job at least teach people some of the great classical ideas of the religious tradition and we cannot live without religious tradition because take away the religious tradition what is left you know what is left three contemporary literature and give the contemporary literature the novels the source of inspiration of our young people until they get the Psalms nubbin reads you're not allowed to read the Psalms in the school how can you how can you be human without being able without being able to pray we need religious education the problem begins whether religious education is in such a splendid state it isn't but a separate problem I think that they aid to religious schools in some form that would not contradict the Constitution on regulations put in the long run proved a blessing the original I fear supporting religious schools well because the religion will determine its power at that time a power we were afraid of they would compete with the state with a difficulty by now religions are so weak in America they're little to be afraid of religious power therefore I would definitely say aid for religious schools in some form would be a great contribution you believe that organized religion is in a weakened condition I think so but we have to put the blame not only on the religious people and religious establishment but also on the people who belong to this establishment to the members of the plain people you see actually the role of religion has declined as a result of countless assault for more directions so what is the outcome in the past 100 years ago 200 years ago a parent we had a gifted boy had a great dream his son should be a rabbi Minister pleased today a man with a gifted boy like him to be a doctor medicine a banker a lawyer so the gifted boys are being kept away by many people blame the people but the legislators are to blame there's a decline in religious thinking religious passion a detachment from the real problems look I said to you the following the central problem in the Bible is not garlic men the Bible is a book about men rather than men's book about God and the great problem is hard to answer to respond to the human situation and somehow religion religious leaders are often become petrified in their own traditions and understanding and couldn't relate to the burning issues of the day how is it responding today how is responding today not too well a great many religious leaders have given up faith altogether they are deluding themselves as I told you before self-deception is a major passion in human life there gave many people who do the word Garden on believing it may give you an example part of the most popular definition of God coming in America today was developed by a great Protestant theologian God is the ground of being so everybody's ready to accept that why not grounder be causes me know ha let there be Atlanta being tongue calling me and I'm ready to accept it it's meaningless in there a God who is above the ground maybe God is the source of qualms and of disturbing my conscience maybe God is a God of demands yet this is God not the ground of being Oh result is we have a religious institutions without the religious belief we have a wave of non-belief I have suddenly discovered there William James was not right when it spoke about he was right by the way I'm saying kitty rhetorically there is a will to believe but there's today I built a disbelief and that will is very powerful that this very day our young people are craving for some deeper meaning our young people of craving for a religious outlook what they get is stone nor bread well what you've said though is that there's something more than relevance needed that's an overused expression you use the term in your writings validity religion must have validity what makes a religion valid know if it is true if it is corresponds to realign sees and questions and problems but may give an a an example of what I mentioned to you before our entire civilization today devolves our on what idea interest or need and we are taught to greater thinking life is to satisfied one's needs and interests actually our way of living devolves around one principle self-interest self-interest there's nothing else on surfing test this is a fallacy according to religion and religion is right valid because if everything is self intention there isn't allowed can you imagine humanity without love if love is only self-interest the life is a fake pretends you're telling me of the nature of man not the nature of God aren't you yes the nature of God is that men should have ends not only needs the difference between an animal enter man is not it needs animals needs when it needs to but men in addition to needs has to have ends goals to Slifer the great task of religion is to teach men how to convert ends into needs but what we do instead is to convert needs into ends and needs are unreliable as a standard because some needs authentic some needs are false look at that attachment advertisement is trying to evoke another needs which we are not a need of can you imagine a day will come and I will feel all of a sudden I couldn't live without color television television is not enough has to be a comma television I will sell I will give away the last penny I have because advertisement is convinced me that without color television I couldn't survive right and a million other things I have to have at least a summer home in a winter home because without a winter home now some mom I'm not a respectable citizen Italy I read it in an advertisement so it becomes a need the legend says no men's distinction is to live by ends and for ends and goals and not only satisfy needs I am NOT against satisfaction of need that's a necessary function of men we have to satisfy our authentic needs it's very important we are against asceticism we love life but they also ends and goes to be served this is the difference between animal and men we ask an average man what are you goals in life he'll tell you life insurance Cadillac and color television you wrote a volume entitled who is man you dealt with some of these questions is there anything else you want to add to your definition Oh out of pain and anguish about that book because I can see that men to be left without friends in the world wherever I look books I read it's full of contempt for the nature of men the naked ape men is all violent men is essential on animal America spent hundreds of millions of dollars to study the behavior of animal loads understand men because essentially men is an animal I'm asking you what a bigger insult is it to men to say that many essentially a beast except he has the ability to me make tools so to speak my definition of an ape is ape is a human being without the ability to speak just as relative to say that man is a and then imelda the ability to speak no what I try to do in this book is to counter to fight the ongoing dehumanization of men which I see it every step every whim unless I feel that my life is accountable to him who is much greater than I am I could not always control my mean leanings I could not only be I would not only be ready for self-sacrifice number one number two my life would be pure the deepest passion in any real human person is a craving for meaning of existence what kind of meaning of existence can I find in the fact that I can make a few dollars that they have a little success Here I am in Moore tomorrow I'm gone what's the meaning of everything what's the meaning of our society about the meaning of our world God is the meaning beyond absurdity wherever I go I'm contracted consistent with the Jewish faith you never write much and call in fact I don't recall your writing at all about a life hereafter lots of religions are predicated on the idea of salvation rather than this earthly existence you don't talk about that sort of thing why is that actually I did write an essay on this problem Khaled at the international conference on death each other in Florence about three years ago not frankly I'll give you the real answer we believe in an afterlife but they have no information about and therefore you can't write about it I'm kidding elected I'll write about it in terms of belief or expectation or hope I did I did but you think that's less important than life on Earth I think that God the business what to do with me afterlife this here it's my business what to do with my life so I'll leave it to him I am so busy trying to live a good life and not don't always succeed I have no time to avoid what God's going to do with me one time in the grave who knows what he want to click me to be do degree and and through all of this I find its uniqueness in your feelings of a cooperative a collaborative rather effort between God and man yes it's it's a sharing yes it's a it's a powerful concept I'm not sure I know how we can help God you see him there was an old ID in Judaism found in the Bible strongly developed by the rabbi's very little-known and that is that God suffers than men suffers there's a very famous text that says even when a criminal is hanged of the gallows God cries it says one to me he's very unhappy with many dared escape sympathy of God and part of men God identifies himself with a misery of men I can help him by reducing human suffering human English in human misery we have just about a minute or so left I should say at the start of this hour before we began this hour dr. harrell indicated an interest in directing a message of young people and I don't know that I ever in the past hour gave you the chance I promised you that I would give you I would say to young people a number of things in dear only one minute I would say that him the member that there is a meaning beyond absurdity let them be sure that every little deed that every word has power and that he can do everyone our share to redeem the world until despite the fall absurdities another frustration or disappointment and above all remember that the meaning of life is to build life as if it were our work of art kind of a machine and we are young start working on this great work of art called your own existence in the best way one of the ways of doing it or two ways of doing it is one remember the importance of self-discipline second study the great sources of wisdom study the bestsellers and third remember the life is a celebration or can be a celebration there's a lot of entertainment in our life intent attainment is destroying much of our initiative in weakens AI imagination what's really important is life a celebration in a very deep sense I would say that the addiction the drug addiction which so many people suffer due to the fact that men cannot live such a shallow life stale he needs exaltation in these moments of celebration one of the most important thing is to teach men how to celebrate life you talked her earlier of slanders may I give you an example of something which is not a slander perhaps the most astute comment on your work was made by Professor Marty at the University of Chicago and he said rabbi Heschl's work unlike other philosophers is directed not only at the mind but at the heart and the will I couldn't have said it soap perceptively thank you very much for being with us the eternal light the NBC television religious program has presented a conversation with the late dr. Abraham Joshua Heschel tipped shortly before his death this program is dedicated to his memory dr. Herschel was professor of Jewish ethics and mysticism at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America and a distinguished author lecturer philosopher and activist dr. Heschl's humanity and love of life is his legacy to us and can serve as an inspiration for all of us to follow dr. Hirschl spoke with Carl Stern NBC News United States Supreme Court correspondent this special eternal light program was brought to you in association with the Jewish Theological Seminary of America and was a recorded production of the NBC religious programs unit your announcer Jean Hamilton you

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Length: 37min 14sec (2234 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 03 2015