A Sociopath Explains Sociopathy

first of all hi hi thank you so much for being here thank you so much for talking about your new book sociopath um I think the first question I would have for you is what exactly Patrick is a sociopath one of the most common questions I am asked is what is a sociopath because there is so much conflation between sociopathy and psychopathy um and it's made all the more complicated by the fact that sociopathy has recently been reclassified as secondary psychopathy which makes it even harder to understand I don't even know what psychopy means I'll tell you so my interpretation of the research is that the classic psychopath has brain abnormalities that make it impossible for them to move through complex emotional development so while they're able to feel the inherent primary emotions that everyone is born with um anger anticipation Joy trust fear surprise sadness disgust they're unable to learn the social emotions shame empathy love guilt remorse these are things that we're not born with these are emotions that we are taught that is different from sociopathy sociopaths act like Psychopaths their behavior is often the same which is why they tend to get confused but sociopaths don't have that biological impediment which means they can learn the social emotions they just learn them differently and in the book I described it as an emotional learning disorder which is what it felt like for me as a kid sort of seeing other kids connect to these emotions and I struggled but I always felt they were there just a little bit out of my Reach people seem to use these terms interchangeably you know and they get confused they really misname certain psychological disorders or behaviors why is that have we just not really learned to parse out the difference between this host of psychological disorders yes and I think it's it I think convenient I think it's you know it's the research says that sociopathy makes up 5% of the population which is a lot of people and I was recently talking to someone who works in the prison system and she had made um the comment that a lot of prison psychologists don't like to diagnose sociopathy or psychopathy because it's considered irredeemable and I really just think that that speaks to why there isn't more research and there isn't more more understanding because it's just a group of people that collectively we have decided are untreatable so it doesn't really matter um whether we get to know them better or understand their motivations more comprehensively so it's just it it is it it was psychopathy sociopathy was the first personality disorder ever identified and yet I don't know that we're any further toward understanding ing it than we were when it was first recognized my understanding from your book is sociopaths are redeemable you can learn certain behaviors and actually almost develop certain emotions with work but psychopaths are not redeemable is that accurate I hate to use the word not redeemable as of now it's not amenable to treatment psychopathy does not seem to be receptive to any type of treatment where sociopathy is so if sociopaths account for 5% of the population what do Psychopaths account for my understanding is it's 0.1% it's a very small number but again having reclassified sociopathy as secondary psychopathy it's really tricky to parse out the research you have to really dig into it and read to understand okay are they talking about psychopathy the 1990s version of psychopathy are they talking about the 2020 version of psychopathy versus sociopathy and I think that that's my biggest call to action is to separate these terms give each one a very clear distinction because sociopathy is receptive to treatment it it it seems insane to me that this is a disorder that affects roughly the same number of people as depressive disorders and bipolar disorders and yet you'll walk into any bookstore and there's nothing on the shelves for sociopathy there are no treatment plans there are no support groups there are support groups for people who claim to have been victims of sociopaths but it's a lot of people and they haven't been given any of the research or resources that most of the other disorders have been well you talk about innate emot versus learned emotions that are kind of through nature versus nurture in some ways so can you give us examples of how a sociopath might like you might move through the world and then I'm going to talk to you about when you first recognized or realized that you weren't quite the same as some of the other people in your family or in society RIT large I'd love to um so uh my experience was was very much related to to other sociopaths I always struggled with empathy and and it's a it's very and again I I I I I want to make it clear just because I don't necessarily react empathically doesn't mean that I want harm for others or that I somehow get off or enjoy seeing others in pain and that's I've seen that uh I've seeing that argument being made and nothing for for me could be further from the truth I don't react empathically but I'm not enjoying watching someone hurting and I remember thinking about other sociopaths when I was in college and sort of marveling over what limited resources and research there was available and I remember thinking 5% who is checking in on these people who's who's helping them keep their behaviors in check like I know what I'm doing but what about all the other people and in that moment I I remember thinking oh wait that's empathy that's me thinking feeling compassion for others and it happened pretty naturally and at that time I was only able to empathize or so I thought with other sociopaths but over time I sort of used that experience to grow the feeling for other people other groups of people um in my life outside my life and that's that became my Touchstone for how to access shame remorse I might not inherently experience those emotions but I would think okay so what if this was happening to another sociopath what if someone was treating another sociopath this way I would try to access it from that angle as opposed to just this blanket learning curve which is we don't want to hurt people's feelings right we don't want to that's those are you know that's that's how you socialize a kid as you you know sit them down and sort of help them understand the general um benefits and not hurting others not wanting to hurt someone else's feelings but for me that didn't work it that those those lessons didn't land but they did when I was able to apply them to other people like me you were diagnosed in college talk to me about your childhood Patrick about how this manifested itself this lack of empathy or this I guess not feeling certain things right uh you do feel happiness and sadness there was a story about your fret dying and your mom told you and you had virtually no reaction so what's the difference between sadness which you say is a it's a basic human emotion and and why didn't you feel sad when your faret died I did feel sad when my fret died I just didn't feel it to the extent that my sister did I remember hearing her crying witnessing her grief and mine was so shallow com compared to hers I do remember being sad that I had this little critter that I now no longer had and remember feeling that I was not going to be able to you know bring her along with me on my Adventures anymore but it wasn't that overwhelming grief that my sister was experiencing and that feeling that I had to that I had to react that way it was sort of this this um pressure to be performative that I was really trying not to do I I I do experience these emotions as do others like me but because they you know they aren't demonstrated at the you know so-called neurotypical level they're discounted or at least they were when I was a kid so that led to a lot of Deceit and manipulation on my part not because I was motivated by greed or or blood lust but because I understood very early early I don't feel things the way other kids do but I need to pretend like I do and this sort of Deceit that I had leaned into as a survival mechanism over time became a lifestyle because it was all that I knew I want to talk to you about sort of some of the things you did as a kid and why you did it but is there something in your brain that is there a prefrontal cortex thing or something that doesn't process or learn Behavior or have you uh Express emotion like other people I mean what what what are the brain the the what are the what are the neurological reasons someone is a sociopath or are there it doesn't seem to biology doesn't seem to play as big a role in sociopathy as it does psychopathy they there is no real General consensus on why uh sociopathy presents the way it does there have been some compelling arguments on temperament so children who are born with the inherent there's everyone knows that kid the one who's just a better liar who's you know manipulating from a very early age that speaks to a certain temperament that seems to be predisposed to sociopathy um under the right circumstances I I can't I wish that I could give you an a precise answer but one of the reasons if not the reason that I wrote sociopath was because I was hoping it would be a jumping off point for people to dig in and say huh why don't we know the answers to these questions and and figure them out because I believe the answers are out there it just it's just a matter of time and and effort to find them let's talk about some of your behavior as a child for example when you stabbed a classmate in the neck with a pencil um it sounds to me that you have these overwhelming feelings can you talk about that and how those manifested themselves when you were a kid yeah I remember feeling this pressure and what I Now understand looking back is that this pressure that I was experiencing was caused by what we were just discussing a little bit ago this feeling that I this understanding that I knew I didn't feel things the way I was supposed to and that if I didn't either force myself into feeling or a adapt a a Persona that was basically a mirror of other people's emotions that I would be outed that I would be that the the perks of society of or my family my my my you know mother's not necessarily affection but having her on my side all of that would be compromised if I didn't act normal and I would feel this pressure start to build and it seems to me that it resembles a lot of what people who suffer from OCD experience and they have this need to engage in repetitive behaviors not because they want to but because some part of their mind is telling them if you do this you will feel better and that's how I felt in that moment when I assaulted that child I wasn't doing it because I wanted to hurt this child or see her in pain it was very much a wrong place wrong time I could feel the pressure building I it had been building for days and it putting that pencil into this child to me was like popping a balloon which I understand sounds vicious and violent and certainly it was but the motivations behind it were neither so was it to feel something I think so it was just this this release of of if not to feel something certainly to sort of later on I described it as this feeling of I am who I am I don't care who knows it I don't care what comes of it I I I just want to exist as I am and doing an act like that or committing a committing an act like that engaging in that type of behavior there's no real hiding from it it's done and so for a minute I'm I'm free I'm pressure's off like I I didn't have to keep this this in anymore I didn't have to conceal this pressure conceal who I am and I it was it was a release in a way I'm not a psychologist or a therapist but it sounds to me like you have obviously some kind of issue with ID and ego and your ID has kind your ID is likely to in certain cases run a muck and your ego which controls the impulse to do something crazy or wrong or unconventional you know it it it doesn't necessarily enter into the picture is that accurate really sounds accurate I know exactly what you're what you're saying and I've I've used a similar analogy whereas the the ID is typically that you know tantram instant gratification um side of oneself whereas my ID is just a wild little dragon and and to your point it the the ego does have a hard time keeping that little dragon locked up and and and pacified not so much now but certainly when I was a kid and is that something you learned how to control this kind of your dragon side I think C yes but the reason is because so much of my life was spent in hiding was spent lying and and den denying to others who I was and I found I I was so much more peaceful when I was alone and it's because I didn't have to hide or lie or or conceal any aspect of myself as I've gotten older and become more comfortable with who I am become more understanding of my personality type what it is why it exists how it exists how it manifests itself I don't feel the need to hide or lie and that has contributed I would say tremendously to my destructive urges and impulses um and has made them a lot easier to manage because you don't feel like you're hiding and you're figuring out how to move in the world it sounds to me like you have trouble conforming to societal Norms correct correct you know sometimes I'm in church and I think I what if I I don't go to church that often but when I do what if I stood up and started screaming and doing something crazy in the middle of church I don't know if other people have this like what if this happened yes and then so that's like my imagination but then my ego says I can't do that that will be disruptive people will think I'm crazy and I'll be in uh page six in the New York Post so I can't do that but you know it sounds to me like you have the first part uh but not the second part it's cognitive I understand it cognitively but I think think because I had I spent so much of my life feeling that I was very much at the mercy of these urges there's always that part of me that goes to that place of well what if this time I can't what if I can't stop myself this time what if the urges get the better of me and a lot of that for me has been resolved with cognitive journaling when I find that I am starting to get concerned and have those feelings of what if I can't stop myself one day I go back and I say but you always but you have you you you know your your history is that you have always figured it out and you will continue to figure it out but I still feel those those those feelings of what if you know I I think I especially recently having with the book just coming out I'm experiencing a type of you know metamorphosis where I'm living very publicly out loud certainly I've been open long open with my friends and family but you know this you know talking to you about something about this is not really something I've gotten used to or processed you you are someone in fact you're I think you're the only person I've gotten to speak with in the last few weeks for whom I have had a lifelong appreciation which is not to say that I haven't enjoyed and thoroughly respected the other people you know with whom I've had conversations but you have always been someone that was sort of a touchstone for me in my life and coming into this I I should have been Overjoyed you know I I should be bursting with something so when I got on the zoom today and I and I found once again those that excitement it's not there I I to you're not you're you're you're feeling what are as we led up to this conversation what was what was your feeling apathy just being stuck behind department store glass like I can see the excitement I can I can cognitively connect to what a exciting and wonderful opportunity it is to have this conversation but I'm not it's not connecting emotionally and and it's frustrating and it's it's sad because I I recognize the gravity in not just this experience but in other experiences in my life certainly recently and I it's sort of I have to remind myself yeah I mean you're I even now I don't I don't connect the way that I wish that I could but I I want to be so clear that the lack of that emotional connection isn't replaced by nefarious or you know uh you know manipulative or deceitful urges it's just ah what a bummer and I that more people understood that and certainly go ahead I was just going to say so you you can't really feel things deeply um you know you're like meh yeah and that's that's a that you're little meh yeah and that's that's okay until you're presented with something like a graduation or a wedding or a birth these you know these opportunities are met with this expectation of emotion and when you don't have them you have two choices either admit it or fake it and and I'm noticing recently that I want to go back to Faking It having said that Patrick you have figured out some workarounds and I think in many ways you've been able to figure out your emotion your lack of emotion and replace it with something else it sounds like and I want to talk about that but first I wanna I want to ask another question because I I don't want to get too far a field about your childhood and and about socio sociopathy is that how I say it because soopy so thank you soopy in general so these impulses that you had as a child this kind of almost feeling like there I would describe it maybe like Wax around your heart or having your emotions almost feel like you're underwater in a weird way um I guess what I wonder is criminal activity you know when people feel this impulse this pressure building up like you're talking about this desire to kind of feel something is that what Spurs a lot of people to do criminal things in other words can you talk about the overlap between soci oopy and criminal activity or or things that are just morally wrong I would my understanding of the research and my own experience indicates that that's exactly what's happening that your need to feel is really what's driving this destructive Behavior the you know one of the things that always blows my mind is we go to that 5% sociopathy is believed to represent 5% of the population but what people don't understand is that nearly all of the diagnostic interviews for sociopathy take place in prisons so if the only place that people are largely being diagnosed with psychopathy and sociopathy is in the prison system you're going to find that most of them are conducting or you know exhibiting Criminal behavior and engaging in that right and I and I but I I also know that there are people like me who have not spent any time in prison and maybe unjustly so and they are trying to navigate their destructive impulses while staying on that fine line of not wanting to get caught but also wanting to force these These Feelings these these pops of color and an otherwise black and white emotional world and it also speaks to privilege you know I I am very clear that I am a white woman of privilege and I had every opportunity and resource available to me what might my life had looked like if I had been a different race gender had I come from a different socioeconomic background I am almost certain I would have wound up in prison and I think about that a lot you know these people who are incarcerated because they were trying to force these emotions by engaging in this destructive behavior and that's all they knew how to do and for a long time it's all I knew how to do so I again it speaks to the need for more research and understanding to help these people certainly be rehabilitated or at the very least to become their own advocates for themselves and for others like that you talked about we talked about losing your fet we talked about stabbing your classmate in the neck with a pencil but what was that first experience like for you when you realized you were emotionally out of step with your family that something was different about you it was lonely and again that's not something that people really think when they think of a sociopath but the truth is I didn't choose you know to feel this way or to not feel this way and I remember Feeling Again bummed like I wish that I could have those overwhelming feelings I wish that I could connect the way that they can and that I could not made me feel very alone and and lonely and sort of craving companion ship of someone likeminded which is not was not necessarily the healthiest choice but that's what I wanted I felt I remember watching Oliver Twist when I was a kid and seeing the Artful Dodger and how Oliver found himself in this you know glorified Cave of criminals and I remember thinking I wish I could go there those those sound like my types of people you would be the Artful Dodger I think I probably would if you remember the Artful Dodger although he was very criminally versatile and certainly checked every um every one of the sociopathy checklist criteria he had a heart and he and he was capable of loyalty he was capable of of of more than than you might have suspected if you were just looking at his rap she you were growing up in San Francisco with your parents and your sister how did they react to this your black and white emotional range I think that's so interesting the way you describe a pop of color in a black and white world yeah that's and that's really how it felt I it's such a dated reference but I remember watching that um who is it aha take on me that video where he's like trying to get out of the this black and white cartoon I remember yeah always stuck with me I remember thinking that's exactly what this is like um but in in terms of how my my parents and my sister reacted they didn't know what was going on anymore than I did and certainly we were living in a time where mental health wasn't a conversation there were hardly words for anxiety and depression which L sociopathy or conduct disorder or you know Oppositional Defiant and I think my mom did the best she could with the tools that she had um I think my sister was different because you know my sister I was already around when my sister was born so to her I was different from her other friends but it was always she never judged me for being different because to her I wasn't different to her I was just her sister and we have such a beautiful relationship in that my sister has every emotional Hue imaginable you know in in Spades and I always like to joke that she got both good sides and I got both dark sides but she never related to me as anything other than someone deserving of love and compassion and a lot of my ability to emote now is a direct result of my interactions with her you bring up the dark side and the light side is there any genetic predisposition to sociopathy I'm sure that there is I can look back and see similarities in other family members close family members um have you discussed it with them since kind of having this Epiphany about your own situation yes and it's been a very matter of fact conversation as one might imagine that there's not a lot of emotion there but yes I have I've said hey I think we should talk about some of this stuff and and it's uh yeah very matter of fact like y you're right I am like this and I have done these things and we probably are very similar what that genetic component is I don't know but again looking through my my immediate family and my extended family I definitely see I see a few branches that that might need further investigation on the old family tree it's so fascinating and it is amazing that more research hasn't been channeled into studying this uh and I know that you believe there is whole whole spectrum of of characteristics that or you know intensity for sociopathy um but I wondered before we keep talking I wonder before I ask you about your marriage if you could just click through some of the characteristics because I want people listening to this maybe they will recognize that that they have a lot in common with what you're describing when you're dealing with sociopathy and psychopathy a lot of them overlap and the this the consensus is that the classic psychopath is going to have more of these traits at um and more um like dominance of the like more um what's the word I'm looking for it's um like these traits are going to be more more prominent than than sociopathy superficial charm 100% for me again that was a coping mechanism that developed into a lifestyle but I was always very superficially Charming I knew what I had to do to get people to trust me and I leaned into it very hard you sound like some of my old boyfriends but go on everybody says this You're Not Alone um grandio sense of self-worth I never really uh possessed that to the extent that um a psychopath would need for stimulation proness to boredom 100% pathological lying conning manipulation lack of remorse or guilt check check check shallow affect check callous lack of empathy I want to push back on that because callous slash lack of empathy I had lack of empathy but I wouldn't describe it as callous and I think that such an important distinction to be made just someone who's lacking an empathy doesn't NE necessarily make them callous I couldn't but also if you believe there's a spectrum there might be some who were callous and some who are less callous or not callous at all yes continue parasitic lifestyle that wasn't that wasn't for me I was always very uh capable of excelling school at work when I wanted to um po behavioral controls yes promiscuous sexual behavior I found that that was that's more a malale driven I think there's a lot of gender bias in in in this checklist right um also the sort of Hallmark trait of a of a sociopath psychopath is is that sort of pushy salesman type of behavior where it's this overt aggression the social dominance a male is going to assert social dominance that way a woman isn't for me it was always charm and sex I would never go into a bar and start throwing my weight around and I think that that's something that maybe should be addressed um in terms of the Diagnostics early problems uh with behavior lack of realistic long-term goals impulsivity irresponsibility failure to accept responsibility for one's own one's actions um many short-term relationships juvenile delinquency and criminal criminal versatility so you can see how some are perfect fits and others are like huh maybe maybe that might be for the more extreme personality type and how does this overlap with things like borderline personality disorder or or narcissistic uh personality disorder because I've known some narcissists and they possess some of these qualities but not all of them and and is it sort of like a VIN diagram where there is a lot of overlap it's behavioral overlap and I and it's I'm really glad you asked this question because there is so much confusion the borderline personality soci the sociopathic personality and the narcissistic personality they tend to demonstrate the same behaviors um but it's where those behaviors how those behaviors are motivated that that differ so someone who is suffering from borderline personality disorder their greatest fear is the uh abandon abandonment yes rejection like uh loss of love so they will do anything to hold on to that that connection and often times their their fear is is um is a uh um it's isn't it a result sometimes of trauma or abuse that they experienced as a child and similarly I think narcissism is so interesting because it's about not being able to model uh certain emotions and a lack of kind of receiving love you know people think narcissists are so full of themselves but they just have this insatiable emptiness where they feel like they're never going to be loved and I think because of narcissus stared at himself in his own reflection that people think narcissis it it's actually a really sad thing it really is and it stems from to your point a deep deep lack of selfworth right so they build this world up for themselves where they they are these Kings which is why grandiosity is is is so prevalent in narcissism everything has to be perfect all of their friends have to be the best the everything needs to be the best it can be and it's all just a defense mechanism against this crushing sense of worthlessness completely and emptiness yes and and so you see why you can you can start to see how the behaviors are similar so borderline it's the same it's this this abandonment this Terror of of being rejected and they become sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy right theopathy is is very similar behaviorally but again we're not talking about a fear of Abandonment or a lack of self-worth it's more the desire to feel the desire to connect and it's sort of it's It's almost like a version of cutting you're you know I I I understand that people who cut they're doing it to feel they want to feel something and paint feeling pain is better than feeling nothing yes and that was my feeling of it I and again wasn't always conscious of it at the time but looking back I remember I can I see I see the I I see the pattern this I would drop into apathy the the pressure of needing to either feel or fake it would kick in the longer I would go without doing something about it the the more the pressure would increase until I would finally act out in order to to sort of neutralize the pressure what's interesting to me about your situation is with educa you know understanding yourself and your behavior you have really learned to manage uh the the manifestations of sociopathy by figuring out really negotiating almost with yourself and with others how you were going to exist in a way that wouldn't harm yourself or harm other people emotionally or physically talk to me about how you were able to do that I know you met your husband in summer camp you were 14 he was a few years older and I feel like that that partnership has really helped you become the person you are now yes I and again I was very lucky and I to the first part of your question that negotiation with myself is a perfect way to describe it and one thing that's almost never present in a negotiation is emotion in fact they discourage emotion in negotiation and and I felt like so much of those conversations with myself were rooted in logic I want to live as normal quote unquote life as I can I understand that continuing to act out is a threat to that life that I want so what do I want more do I want the normal life or do I want to continue to act out and and manage my impulses this way that was an easy decision certainly it became easier once once I met my my husband uh he is such a good person and he is such an emotional person and I knew very early on that I enjoyed being around him and I recognized that the reason was he was the first person other than my sister who just liked me for me I didn't have to hide around him and he wasn't a member of my family so I knew that it was real he really it wasn't of obligation or or um you know just sort of a knee-jerk emotion he really liked me and it sort of made me realize I'm not bad I'm just different and maybe if this guy can like me I can sort of learn to live more authentically and not feel as though I have to hide so much and how did you get to that point because I know it took you a long time long time to process that how did you get there and how did your research help you and then you had some hacks with your husband like the little Statue of Liberty that you would when you when when sort of your um the opposite of your better Angels would kind of take over yeah so I know I've asked you sort of three questions in one but tell me about getting to this point where you have been able to manage you know I went back to school in order to gain a better understanding of myself you know in the process of of getting my PhD I I did I uncovered a lot of of research about my own personality type but it was it was very selfishly driven and you know I want to be very clear on that I am not a researcher I am not some you know revolutionary therapist I went to school and earned my PhD solely because I was trying to understand and help myself well that's okay because in the process you're probably going to help a lot of other people that's my hope but I remember in that process it you know and again this speaks to my personality type that this didn't occur to me sooner but realizing oh in order to get my PhD I'm going to have to learn about other people too which at the time was kind of a bummer but ultimately I'm so glad that I did because understanding other people really helped me understand myself better but also how I could coexist with others in a way that was healthy and you know that process of again negotiating with my husband it was tricky because my husband is a very neurotypical emotional human being who is like wait you're going to leave a statue on the table for when you do something illegal like this is insane and I in in retros respects I can see why he felt that way but at the time I didn't know of any other ways to manage my pressure I didn't I hadn't fully come to understand it yet and this just made sense to me in much the same way that breaking into cars and homes felt like a reasonable way to keep myself in check looking back I can certainly understand why there was every alarm was going off in in my husband's head but it was it was something that we had to just consistently communicate and and discuss until both of us sort of had a deeper understanding of our personality types it sounds like for a long time Patrick you were a very high and continue to be a high functioning sociopath and in fact you worked in the music industry which in some ways uh was tailor was Taylor Made for your personality disorder can you can you tell us why because I think that the music industry is very much a lawless land and and I love it I still do I don't think it was a very healthy environment for me and had I stayed I probably would have gotten into all sorts of trouble but I think that there's a veneer you know the entertainment business in general has been able to conceal oceans of horrific Behavior behind this sparkling veneer and the music industry is certainly no different and I was able to thrive as a result of my personality type and the moral flexibility I naturally was able to employ can you explain that because I'm having a hard time understanding sort of uh what you mean by that specifically and in terms of uh why it could have been a fertile environment for your your sociopathic Behavior can you just help me understand that a little bit more sure it's when you are working with or in proximity to people of power you tend to you tend to have the same benefits of that power so if you are working with a celebrity who is never held accountable you sort of can get away with things and not be held accountable either you're it's it's um like coasting off of that wake um and there were there were multiple times where I had opportunities to steal I had opportunities to manipulate and and and enrich myself and I knew I would never be caught or even implicated because no one's paying attention to you when you've got a celebrity standing next to you and that was something that I recognized very quickly and um also recognized this is not good long term if you keep doing this maybe I wouldn't have been caught but it certainly wouldn't have led to the the the life that I have today which is rooted in um like pro-social behaviors and and just rewarding emotional experiences I don't think I would have found that if I had stayed in the music industry I'm curious how emotional range um jbes with a sense of morality do you have an inherent sense of right and wrong or is that I I you know what I mean I'm I'm trying to figure this out because if you have these urges where does morality come in to being a sociopath I think there's a difference between knowing right and wrong and morality so I always knew the difference between right and wrong it's that that knowledge wasn't Tethered to any emotional construct and that's where I think morality kicks in so a neurotypical person is going to know don't take the bubble gum off the shelf and put it in your pocket because that's wrong and when you go home about it you're going to feel shame and you're going to feel the need to atone or confess or or apologize whereas I knew that taking the bubble gum was wrong but I also knew that when I got home I wasn't going to feel badly about it so that's really tricky because when you are lacking those emotional constructs you have to make choices based on something external and that was tough It's you know all of the other kids that I grew up with they were they had things like guilt shame and remorse keeping them in check I didn't get to rely on those so I had to come up with external philosophies and so what keeps you from stealing bubble gum today Karma it's I it that was just something that really resonated with me I really once I started when I got into college I I I I think I took I think it was a theology class it was a class that that where I had to do um um reading and and and Buddhism and I remember really responding to it and liking the the balance of it this this scale and that really resonated with me not on an emotional level but on a what goes up must come down type of logic and I remember thinking this is how I I will keep myself in check understanding that okay you can do this but chances are if you put too many coins in the bad side on the bad side of the scale you're going to have to there's going to have to be an adjustment at some point and the idea that I have this outstanding karmic debt I never liked that feeling it's like no I want to keep my scale very even I want to keep things very clean and organized and that's what worked for me um and I and I have it's and it's it's also not lost on me that that one of the one of the uh objectives within Buddhism is is a quiet mind and and not being held um captive by your emotion so I've been able to utilize that in in meditations and and and things that are very advantageous you know spiritually that maybe someone who is neurotypical might struggle with more because they can't quiet those emotions they can't they can't keep things still whereas I can you have two children and I'm curious how this has impacted your parenting this kind of um more more looking at emotions through through a glass window people talk about and I know you write about this feeling this overwhelming sense of love when you have a baby and you didn't feel that way how did you manage the emotional kind of Disconnect when it comes to Parenting and having children I remember not being very angry when I did not experience that um that that surge of emotion and I looking back I was very it was all directed at myself not because I was unable to feel those things but because I had allowed myself even a sliver of hope that I might so for the longest time I was so angry at myself for like how could you even think that this would be possible for you but once that went by the wayside it was it went back to logic it's like okay I don't have all of the tools that a neurotypical parent does but I have what I have and I'm going to make the best out of what I have and I have found that my lack of emotion can be advantageous when I'm dealing with my kids and and they're really struggling to regulate or they're really struggling with big feelings I I have found that I can intervene um in a way that allows them to express their reactions without the fear of my reaction getting in the way and that's something I've sort of noticed from friends family even watching television a child will have a feeling and that feeling will immediately be met with their parents feeling you know how could you fail this test or how could you let that happen whereas I've noticed that that doesn't happen it's it it tends to be very level emotionally and I have chosen to perceive that as an advantage well because what choice do I have you know that's what I've got so I try to make the best of what I've got do they ever get frustrated or did your husband get frustrated with this sort of uh homeostasis and the lack of you're you're almost over regulated it feels like in your emotional state does do they ever feel like hello anyone home why aren't you happier for me why aren't you mad that the bully was mistreating me why aren't you oh I do get that's I do get mad that's you know what I mean why aren't you more closely aligned with what I'm feeling on my behalf yes and I and I I've I've always tried to be very uh transparent with my kids obviously my children are young so I I how old are they uh 13 and eight so I I share transparently but age appropriately but I've always just just tried to come at it from a very um honest place I I am Limited in what I can I can give you so I I you might not get what you need for me in this department but maybe I can help you figure out some things over here in this other department um it's interesting I my two sons recently introduced me to Taylor Swift and I you know through that introduction I've been able to communicate with them and understand their emotional world on a much deeper level and I and I'm it it's again it's like being in an art gallery where I might not be able to paint these colors but I can see them and I can understand where they're coming from and appreciate them yes yes um so I that's been a very a very cool experience sort of seeing the world through through their lens and through that that music you say you're limited but can you love yes I I I think I just love differently and for a long time I was made to feel that because I love differently it that love didn't count but that's not true and I and I reject that completely I don't have that instant connection a lot of times love for me starts starts out as like a cognitive understanding but I love my children and I love my husband and although that love might not look like someone who is overly affectionate or overly effusive I I I very much love them and I also loved my sister and my mother and father growing up so I always knew I was capable it's just how how deep can I go and and I'm finding that as my children get older that ability to connect continues to grow it's just it's just a little bit different than someone who's neurotypical and when it comes to your impulses you don't really necessarily want to stab someone in the neck with a pencil anymore but you do well yeah but you're able to control those impulses but sometimes you do what you call Mischief you know you'll you'll kind of do something funny and if you're feeling these impulses you'll put this little Statue of Liberty figurine so your husband can see it what what does that mean exactly and what are some of the examples of some of the things you might do today yeah you're really putting me on the spot Katie I'm sorry that's my job that's my job Patrick I know it is it's not actually it's not me because I I'm delighted by this question but I can feel I can feel my my my husband in my head going careful careful he's very protective but here's a great example I tend to I I I don't necessarily feel um at the mercy of my impulses but that little dragon's always looking for an opportunity to strike if it if we can find a if we can find a justification do you think I might be able to come out of my cage a little bit and there was um I was I was behind someone in the car and this person was throwing all manner of garbage out of their window I mean everything glass bottles plastic just and I followed this woman for a long time and I remember thinking feeling the the the little dragon say um come on come on come on let me at her let me at her and I followed this woman until she stopped at a grocery store and when she stopped at a grocery store she took I guess she had had a milkshake that she hadn't finished and just put it next to another car which I found just particularly gross falling yeah like you're GNA put it next to someone else's car but she left her sunroof open so I waited until she was gone and then I upended the contents of that milkshake right through our open Mercedes sunroof and I got back in my car and went home you asked gosh I'd like to drive with you so I can uh act out my fantasies when a driver is a real jerk it was just one of those moments where again I knew I wasn't supposed to do it I knew that it was wrong but I also knew that I didn't have those emotions keeping me in check and and it was just I was in a mood well that to me almost sounds like you had the emotions that you couldn't keep in check anger well it was anger and that's and and and that's one of those things that you that you innately have yes and I but I have never been I've never had much of a temper I'm not really explosive in that way but I think it also stems from a place of I have I am a sociopath and by the virtue of that diagnosis I have been subjected to all manner of criticism and I'm expected to keep myself in check and honest and and I'm expected put that figurine on the desk when I get home and I adhere to these these rules that I that I work very hard to to keep in place and then when I every once in a while it's very exhausting so when I come across somebody who's just doing whatever they want with no with no uh consequence whatsoever I think that was more like well how come this lady gets to do this like she shouldn't be doing this this is horrible she's she's destroying the Earth and and I've and I'm not in a mood did you I I wish you had stuck around to see her reaction the only reason I didn't was because there are cameras everywhere now and I I wanted to so badly but I can I don't I don't know that we needed to be there in order to guess what that reaction was it was a very nice car and this was not this was a this was a very wealthy woman clearly based on what she was wearing what she was driving and I'm sure that she wasn't thrilled I want I think it's important for the world to see someone intelligent successful Wells spoken thoughtful talk about her life as a sociopath what has the response to your kind of unleashing this on the world what has the response been you know it's largely been so positive I've heard from so many people who resonate with my experience of my personality type who see themselves represented positively they see someone like them who is functioning in society in a healthy relationship um and has kids has a good relationship with those kids has friends has has a job is able to to live a normal life out of hiding um and that's been the positive element and it's been largely positive and it's and that's mostly from people who are like me or people who know people like me but I'm also finding that the reaction to my book Again by virtue of the fact that I have outed myself as a sociopath people reacting with their own ideas of who I am and more concerning who they want me to be a lot of people I found they want me to be a liar they want me to be a fake they want me to be that stereotypical sociopath and I find that to be problematic because why on Earth would someone like me others like me want to come forward or admit to being sociopathic if the climate is still so dangerous for them so that's I I expected um skepticism but skepticism in um the presence of fact is where I I realize oh it's not that you don't believe me it's that you have chosen that I am going to be a liar full stop I think that's more convenient um but choosing to deny reality doesn't change reality it just makes you less safe within that reality so that's something that I'm that I'm trying to navigate not for myself as much as for the others like me who are watching and trying to make decisions for themselves do you think this will lead to more research and a more of a focus since so many people fall into this category given that there is a spectrum but so many people if in fact 5% as you said earlier Patrick that's a lot of people do you think that this might lead to mental health professionals wanting to understand this particular disorder better or this neuro Divergence better I really hope so and I I think it will because this is a conversation that wasn't happening before that seems to be happening now and so much research has already been done one of the the struggles I had in writing this book is I had to stick to the research that was available to me at the time that I was you know in college which was 10,000 years ago but in researching it more recently there's so much more now and I can only hope hope that conversations like this will move the needle even more toward wanting Clarity wanting understanding it's it is very important that we not marginalize everyone who is sociopathic understand there are those extreme versions of this personality type who should be avoided whose Behavior should never be condoned I'm trying to romanticize this personality type at all simply to bring awareness that there is more to this personality type than that extreme version there are so many people who fall on the mild to moderate side for whom treatment is very possible and very and could be very effective but in order to treat something you have to be able to identify it and right now sociopathy doesn't really have an identification Beyond this sort of sensationalized definition and it's not in the DSM not anymore they it and that's another issue that's confusing is that it was quote unquote replaced by antisocial personality disorder but what's so important to understand is you it wasn't replaced because you can't diagnose sociopathy using the criteria for antisocial personality disorder just like you can't diagnose anti-social personality disorder using the sociopathic criteria they're very similar but the Diagnostics are completely separate and I think that there should be a section within the DSM that deals with psychopathy sociopathy and antisocial personality disorders because they are very similar but diagnostically very separate and I think that would bring a lot of clarity to how they're different how they can be treated especially early that's the Research indicates that that you cannot diagnose a child as sociopathic but sociopathic leaning children respond quite favorably early intervention that would save so many people from having to go through the the stuff that I went through and others like me went through and especially when it's it's it's an easy intervention I'm using that you know um Loosely but with air quotes yeah yes but it's not we're not talking about intensive uh you know therapy or or institutionalized treatment it's this is cognitive behavioral interventions talk therapy analysis these are things from which sociopathic leaning children can really benefit but right now I get letters from parents all the time where should I send my child what should I do I don't have an answer because there isn't that Collective understanding yet well maybe this will be the start of a movement who knows not on wood well Patrick gagy thank you so much for this conversation I know you're weren't very excited about it but I hope you feel good about it I feel great about it that's I can't tell you how how cognitively I am so excited to have been able to have this conversation with you I have been I have been looking to you my whole life I I wasn't able to to connect with others but I remember watching you on television and connecting to you because you were always so logical you had the facts you were so level and I I really appreciate and I experience cognitively or understand cognitively what a momentous occasion this is for me personally I might not have the emotional reaction but I get it well that's so nice of you to say maybe I'm a sociopath probably just kidding

Channel: Katie Couric

Views: 28,428

Keywords: Katie Couric, Katie, Celebrity, Entertainment

Id: cgenGJ1717I

Length: 66min 45sec (4005 seconds)

Published: Thu May 23 2024