A Scientist's Mind Meets the Heart of Reality with Francis Lucille and Edward Frenkel

[Music] so I usually I don't do the dates but the problem is a which is not a problem is that we agree so up until now we have agreed yes iPad up until now right yes so we usually agree we talk to each as we didn't talk about this we didn't prepare for this debate and like politicians right which for me the first time by the way in my life that I didn't prepare for being on stage academic culture kind of mix makes you always you know very stressed and I always come with the slides and you know that my ego prepares to impress everybody so it's a kind of a first for me you know in a way and so he was talking about how contagious a fearlessness is you know so we'll see you know I mean he's a mathematics professor he's used to speak to his religious yes but so we have a debate no debate debate between between a professional mathematician and scientist with an interest in non duality and non-duality teacher with a background in science the and since the theme is science and non duality I mean we could go at it right right and I guess you know you may have questions that would make things easy for us right but in fact there was one question earlier okay right about the relationship between science and non duality what a great question because we are here obviously at the conference called science and non duality and so I think that Pope Francis already partially answered that but I want to kind of contribute a little bit I think that we are at a very interesting time it used to be I think that most of the people who were truly interested in spiritual journeys learning the truth of who they are were people who were not necessarily with scientific background and there are various reasons for that it's not by chance and I can speak about my own you know path if you will my own in my sort of experience and insight and as to why it is like that in my gaiter the short of it is I chose mathematics as a way to insulate myself from the real world to find the place where I was safe from the sort of from the difficulties that I was facing so it was not by chance because science mathematics especially gives you this very precise this pure domain where you cannot be touched by you know by bullies and bigots and so on but the fact remains that very few although one notable exception I would say was David bone and there's further famous dialogues not drawing any parallels famous dialogues between David Bohm and Krishnamurti which actually played a big role for me and I know that Krishnamurti played a role in your on your path to me perhaps you will tell us a little bit about this so that's one notable exception and I thought I think that it's a beautiful there's a book and the style of these dialogues which I think are fascinating and so but the bottom line is I think very few scientifically minded people were I think embarking on this kind of journey which probably most more for people more artistic I know right the right side of the brain kind of people rather than the left side but I think it's changing now and the reason is that technology and science are invading our lives and really determining sort of where we are going as a species now more than ever or and we scientists have to keep up you know we have to become more aware we have to become more you know interested in the question of who we are and that brings certain challenges I think to the sort of spiritual community how do you communicate with somebody who is scientifically minded and that I'm a kind of a prime example of this and maritza was right when I was first invited to speak here which was about to close to three years ago at that time I was like non-duality what is this new agey stuff you know so I was I was concerned how this would be reflected on my reputation you know who was concerned obviously so and and so then something like me a very rigorous trained to think very rigorously requires a very special regimen of you know teaching of a particular teaching very rigorous very precise because I can support logical inconsistencies very easily and if I do my mind checks out and says this is okay it doesn't work so you have to be very careful with people like me to teach us something that we can then take and absorb and process but if we do if we sort of take the bait in some sense then we can use that mind which is after all a tool it is a tool and it's very you know it's trained its honed to be besides we can use it as a sort of like almost like a like a diamond to cut through a lot of things very quickly and by itself is not enough but it can take us to as it is beautifully set here to the edge of the unknown so what I would for me what's interesting to discuss today is precisely that how do we communicate so and in this respect the teachings of Francis have been incredibly powerful to me his teachings also Jean Klein Franklin's teaching sis was his teacher in that they were so precise that my mind would stop would be like oh okay you know that makes sense let's take the next one they take the next one well I guess I'm goodbye I'm speaking for too long but that's sort of now his background is in science so Francis went to the esteemed Ecole Polytechnique in in France and was trained and trained as a scientist so I am curious maybe would you care what you share maybe just a little bit about how for you how that happened for you that you became interested in the truth I had problems being in public or being with people especially if they were of the opposite gender especially in the very young especially if there were beautiful I was in my 20s right so I decided that I was screwed which I was and I was trying to you know to to get out of this predicament one day I was making a stop in Paris in the Latin Quarter and I went to this bookstore in the psychology display of the book there was a book says on the spine there was Krishnamurti it was a 60s you know so for those who are old enough to remember you know the Beatles mahi-mahi Oggy the hippies I had experience with spot so Krishnamurti was in line with this country or an Indian name so I picked the book and that was the beginning that's how it's beautiful isn't it so this one I must say that upon reading the book I I understood that my self-consciousness or my shyness had its origin somewhere else in my identification with my little purse and that even whatever I would try to address this specific issue I had wouldn't liberate me from the full enchilada of my problems that I better try to solve everything once and for all which I try to do over the following years when I met my teacher etcetera and without trying to do anything about my shyness and only to realize a few years later that 90% of my problem had vanished without me doing anything to that end so that was great in other words the mother of all problems is this sense of his belief to be a separate person when you address that all the other psychological issue then will eventually collapse that was my experience as you can see I am NOT very much intimidated by you guys now this is one one detail which you mentioned to me when we talked about this before which is at that bookstore in Paris where you bought the book you told me that you actually passed by the building many times but he didn't know that that was a different book store it was a different store in the same area but in a different Street so sometimes the bookstore when you first itself when we are ready for it right and the book when you face itself when they are ready and and then there is this beautiful moment when you realized that you read the book and you know for me personally books have been and that has been my sort of livelihood you know and my channel and but it was a kind of a special moment when I realized that my god it's not just somebody wrote that book and it was frozen you know for many years and now I'm opening and I'm looking at those symbols it's support it's a collaborative process that's happening is magic the mystery is happening and so so that's that the question is how do we capture so for instance you know I I have to say I discovered actually Francis last year ATS and he gave a beautiful Q&A here just as he did today so again I guess I was ready to discover a year ago and and one of the things so just to give an example of some of a kind of thing that resonated with me and which kind of I was like ah that's how it that's how I can understand it there is always this discussion about I and there's such a great confusion I and the problem is that we are I'm so deeply entrenched the identification when I say I that I'm thinking I Edward Franco at this guy who is in this body sitting in this chair so then of course it becomes problematic how come I am they say I am God I don't feel like I am God right so it's strange but then I heard something else he said you have to distinguish that from that which is aware that which is hearing his words or my words right now and so that's one example of this this is kind of a scientific approach so you kind of like separate these two things so you know like ah so the eye is not so the eyes and the eye of the beholder kind of right so it depends on what is the definition as Bill Clinton used to say what the definition of is is you know sir hahaha so what the definition of I is and when I understood what I grasped that's like oh so when they say I they don't mean I as Edward Franco is this I which is aware which is hearing which is listening which is watching right and so then things became much more I started to make sense right so that's that's an example of of a scientific of a kind of a way of speaking which is more aligned with a logical mind of a scientist yes I mean I foresee for me it still fresh in my mind because it was only a year ago I was like oh my god that's what it is so here's another one then I'm I'm really has the enthusiasm of a new convert I'm sayin like you know I'm like a dog who learn this new tricks and it was - sure right so but then for instance so I'm reading this I'm reading his books and books of John Klein and they talk about this how they're our to nature actually shines between thoughts and you know what in deep sleep and sometimes like I'm not experiencing anything in my deep sleep I don't remember anything what does it mean between two thoughts also and especially for mathematicians thoughts come at such a high speed there are the graphs are very short and then he explained to me he said actually every time you understand something you realize something it is your innate you are your true nature stripped off of all the of all the layers of you know spurious layers and that was also revelation it's like oh my god so it's not something you know I speak it's like more here I speak prose you know so I I am the true nature at this moment when I am when I realized something when I understood something and that's where mathematician said well when you prove a theorem there is this moment you prove improving one you know infinite you infer one Satan from Ana and a proof is ended at that moment there is something well there you are I'm just like always so simple you know so that's the kind of thing that that would resonate so when we talk about going back to the question earlier that science and on duality that's where a scientific training actually could work in in our favor should I say but then the next task is to understand that it can only take you so far so do you have any comment on this so for me this was the biggest struggle of my life is to to accept that ultimately there is no theory there is no ultimate theory or they say you know in science we have theory of everything and everybody has their competing theory of everything because of course it's my theory me the ego I have learned all this stuff I am going to teach the world of everything right so there is this almost reflex and so is there is a pill for this doctor is that what you serve is the repeal there is medicine is there medicine for this I think you when you said you can all only go so far well we shouldn't we should respect this understanding because as I said earlier whenever we understand something about consciousness whenever we truly understand it's never intellectual intellectual is understanding is not really understanding is simply relate something to something else we remain in the mind it's not experiential but when we understand something about consciousness we understand it experientially through the experience of consciousness so that's very important not to diminish to diminish in our own arms our understanding about the truth but non duality is very important then whatever we are understood then we have to apply it because what we understand is a possibility it's a possibility that consciousness be universal instead of being limited and human base as we previously thought but then we have to try to conduct experiments to verify or falsify this using a scientific language to verify or falsify these hypotheses and it is an in this process of trying to live our life in accordance with this new perspective then we'll get convinced that it is true and that our lives will change we cannot otherwise my teacher used to say if we don't try to apply it in our life it's like having a beautiful car and remaining in the garage not driving your Porsche or your Ferrari out on the on the roads and so that's the comment I would make how to it takes you very far in fact yes that to the extreme but then you have to trust you they have to trust some who do not have to live it stressed but of course the whole point is for somebody for a brainiac like myself that's the most difficult thing to do to trust because that's why I went into science to begin with because I didn't have to take the anything from trust I could prove things in mathematics right so that's where the leap that's where the leap has to happen and so but in a sense also you know when I first hear about Frances very generously agreed to talk to me a few months six months ago so I was so full of questions you know and and I and interestingly enough I knew that these questions are not really going to give me the answer I knew it but I couldn't help myself I have to ask he says consciousness is universal there's one consciousness which is hearing this this words which is what I am often mistakenly you know identifying as my own right but then so is everyone else's is the same one he says and I'm like how is it possible how come I know my thoughts but I don't know his thoughts and then it goes on and on and run in circles but the beauty of a teacher like Francis is that he said you'd say you know it's okay you should ask the questions if you have if the question arises you speak speak it they'll say the question don't suppress that's the worst and so well it's interesting how in a way we all kind of we come to the end of the line when we kind of get exhausted I think yeah mathematicians have a lot of questions it's going to exhaust me you know but it's possible so I remember one day I was I started asking question at breakfast with my teacher we had breakfast together and then run 11 o clock he decides okay let's let's drive let's try to can let's have a nice lunch at the restaurant so we drove during the drive one hour one Drive I was I kept asking question then during the meal asking questions we were in this fancy restaurant in Canada tour during the festival and there were all these movie producers actors and actresses around us you know smoking big cigars be you know big shot talking about business and so tell and all this greed and ego you know it was charged and we were like in a bubble of peace you know like you own an aquarium you never watching the fish you know it's already funny but I was still asking question and then after after the lunch we went to the la Croisette straight in front of the beach and my teacher he was kind of try to decide my attention and then they well bought outside and we of some foreign navies and we saw sailors coming up to us and my teacher talked to them which nations how you form are those your ships you know and but then I kept asking questions and we after me we needed to to to go to the to the loo and so we went downstairs I remember being side by side on the loo and still asking Christopher Martin petitions are sticking with question he's he's not a desperate case it was awareness to perfections he's reasonable well thank you for saying that I think sometimes I would be very very pestering you with questions and so on but I do see that it was necessary it was it was and I think that it's a good moment maybe to see if anybody has questions okay well um Francis a grand time to be serious also about science and non yeah yeah that's why I'm wearing jacket by the way so we need a mic microphones suppose serda the world yes I was already answered oh I just wanna ask if you can answer a question about the pill that would when you learn something and you're so passionate about it do you feel like the whole mystery was open to you and you want to share this fun you're giving hope world what the cure for that if that desire of that ego to be predominant how do you what why do say is the egos desire yes how do you if you work on lover and your ego or trying to diminish it how do you do it I'm not gonna take your question can you rephrase it from my experience ego it's a stent on the way of a lot of things in my life because there's a lot of realization that I had after that my ego takes over and can almost like puts bad not that just diminishing it because it wants to drive in this knowledge how do you do you how do you work with your ego do you make it so your motives are not based on your ego your motives are pure and you cure my ego wants to answer this but if ya okay Rick it's something which fresh in my mind so haha you take response at this room why am i no but see how my ego jumped right so that's a good one and so so he explained this to me actually and I love this answer so how do you separate because we should not think that every time we want to share and explain and so on that it comes from the ego no not at all sometimes it does and sometimes it comes from the truth it comes from through nature and that's what we're supposed to do we are supposed to share we are supposed to help each other so how to distinguish between the two that is the question and the answer is um not distinguished but when you'd even distinguish hard to not how do do you have your own why high you practice of removing ego from you if you practice oh oh you would say okay again the jobs thank you ego is not a problem the problem is identification with the ego right yes do I pass I pass the C because for me it was the same question I also I thought I had to kill the ego I had to but what is this instinct to kill something you don't have to kill anything I just let it be dangling here this ego there is this Edward Frenkel who is this best-selling author and like whatever professor Berkley it's okay it's not a problem but I know it's not me you know so or it's a small part of me let's just say right so I want you realize that you don't have to kill but only watch the mechanism of your identification with it it's a totally different game yeah I hope it came across as earnest as it was man you know there are more are more questions we need to make a little bit room for everybody behind us I mean I'll great so I'm I do not remember the author of the following quote so if you do please remind me and I believe that a scientist and mathematician at some point said that mathematics is the language of nature yes so Kalia I'm sorry Galileo Galileo thank you well fellow Italian I should have laws of nature I've written in language of math okay great so now for you now that you're becoming seems to be coming more aware of your own true nature is there any interest as a mathematician as a scientist to prove that with a mathematical equation to do it too with a mathematical equation and for you Frances the language of nature I sense it as being being would you say anything as to what is the language of true nature I meant to say true nature so I don't know who wants to go first of the two you go first well the language of our true nature is a silent presence that precedes all things that never says no that welcomes all appearances so it's a silent loving all welcoming presence that which is hearing these words but about mathematics being the language of nature that's a very old things I think it's a heart attack so says oto sigh geometry means the gods always gamma crisis there is this uncanny correspondence between the discovery of modern physics theories in physics and parallel discoveries in mathematics like like I have a I have a circulant in my garden and it's very strange that when one flowers the other flowers like the signal to each other that they have to give the flowers at the same moment they are distant they are same seemingly unrelated but the kind of conspire to get in in bloom on the same the same year at the same time so the same thing in physics and mathematics we had I mean for a common pipe coming back with a Fourier transform or he'll bird with a hilbert space and then it applies to all kinds of fields in mathematics quantum mechanics etcetera riemann with his theory of cloud space etc and then einstein and general relativity theory and it's there is something and was miraculously it has not escaped who was the physicist ooh-hoo-hoo-hoo underline that famous physicist Dirac it was Dirac I don't I don't remem but there is his beauty also talking about Dirac he he came up with this equation and Dirac was for him mathematics belong to a different realm to kind of a realm of a platinum platinum realm of ideas and so his equation had two kinds of solution one with positive energy about the electron and one with negative energy we didn't didn't make sense physically and from this but for Dirac the fact that there were these two kinds of solution and the beauty and the symmetries of the equation he says Zeff must be God so the mathematics with his beauties with his symmetries might be telling us something and he came up with the interpretation of the positron the anti electron which would have a positive charge a anti particle that that was the beginning the discovery of antimatter two or three years later the positron was experiencing verified was discovered expansion so that that that is extraordinary think that from the beauty the symmetries of one equation we can discover new things about nature and the besides the beauty of the discovery in pure mathematics of a new theorem of a new theory this kind of integration between the two fields tells us something very deep for the following reason that mathematic mathematics they are only mine stuff is they are apparently unrelated to matter this is as a product of discovering from within the human mind will ask the phenomena that takes place in the world are matter related so the great question in philosophy in philosophy is where is the connection between my between the certain realm of mathematical ideas and the physical realm of matter but this uncanny harmony between mathematics and physics tells us about hints at a higher truth where they both United you know consciousness so that on the one hand screw saman you have the mathematical theory on the one hand through nature you have the natural phenomena going back to Heraclitus you agree yes definitely it's a personal question to Francis so as a non duelist when you hear a question which is give elastic in nature like about a personal God are saving the material world do you consider these questions as doubts counterpoints questions that are rising in your own awareness or do you really think that people are asking the questions when I hear a question I listen to the question and then I listen to the answer and then I speak the answer very simple me too actually that's how he solves his problem he listens to the problem and then he listens to the solution then he writes it writes his paper right totally may take some time otherwise it wouldn't be wouldn't be fun if it was three if it were too easy wouldn't be fun right so so Edward after after you are moving on to the non your world how can my nephew is working at my nephew is studying in UC Berkeley huh so let's say he takes your class and he doesn't turn in your homework okay do you consider that as something that is in your own awareness or do you give an F to him it's it reminds me of Francis sometimes give this example that if you are speeding on the highway and the policeman stops you you don't tell the policeman I am God you could not give me a ticket we will charge you probably twice as much yeah and you may spend your weekend in real places so my students had better not use that argument you know either so but but but when we speak about the teaching for instance you know one of the things I realized also talking to Francis is how communication mutual understanding if you think about it it would not be possible just by sort of like mechanical transmission alone there is something going on which is you know reminds me of this Arthur Eddington you know something unknown is doing we don't know what and Arthur Eddington is a very famous astronomer who confirmed Einstein's general relativity and so on he spoke about Heisenberg's uncertainty but I think it applies for instance to comprehension for instance you asked me a question how come I understood the question right so and how come you understand my answer interesting enough my sort of my data and job as a professor at UC Berkeley gives me certain experience valuable experience and seeing that and I do feel this you know sometimes I teach a class of 500 students and I used to think that you know mathematics of case is very rigorous stuff so there is no spiritual content in it but now I don't I think there is and I feel that sometimes I feel it in the silence so of course everybody always says silence is God's language and silent presence and so on in but it sounds sometimes too abstract but here is well he has a very concrete example of silence when I speak to my students and I there is a Paradis moments when they they got it all at once and there is this moment of pressure silence which is more silent than just the silence of no one speaking and that's when I know that we are yes on the same page there is something beautiful when we agree you know and that's why people seek this agreement look in a rupert's country well the weather is awful you know and it's like it's like rainy zero degrees and they go to just lovely weather isn't it Oh indeed invigorating you know they they they agree which is with each other you know it's beautiful you know just of an organized things you don't like legs L the weather is a question of a book we are a lot of we are out of time but time doesn't exist you [Music]

Channel: scienceandnonduality

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Length: 39min 36sec (2376 seconds)

Published: Sun Jan 29 2017