A Conversation about Martin Luther with Eric Metaxas and Pastor Chuck Swindoll

[Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] good evening everyone thank you for coming I'm Pastor Dave Carl and I oversee the children's and family ministries here at Stonebriar Community Church we have quite a crowd here in the room with tonight but we also have another crowd that is perhaps around the world we have through the internet we have groups gathering to be a part of our evening together I know particularly you have a group in California that are watching this right now so I Paul and we are glad to have both groups here for those of you who are not familiar with us at Stonebriar Community Church we have just this last Sunday celebrated our 18th year as a congregation in Frisco Texas and we we welcome you here tonight there will be after the the time with Pastor Chuck and Eric there will be a QA and we have two microphones down front that you can go to in a orderly line you seem like a very orderly group so if we could just have lines to the microphone we will try to get to yours and we will be taking questions from the online audience as well so you can be texting those in at any time during our evening and we'll have them at the ready again not not certain how many are regulars how many are familiar with us I will tell you a little bit our about our pastor Chuck Swindoll he has devoted his life to the accurate Pat practical teaching and application of God's Word in His grace at heart Chuck has served as senior pastor to his congregations in Texas Massachusetts and California since 1998 he served as the founder and senior pastor teacher of Stonebriar Community Church in Frisco Texas but Chuck's listening audience extends far beyond a local church body through the insight for living broadcast chuck's teaching is on the air in every major Christian radio market in all 50 states and through more than 2,100 outlets worldwide in numerous foreign languages and is also available to an exploding webcast and podcast audience checks prolific writing ministry has blessed the body of Christ for over 30 years beginning with you and your child in 1977 Chuck has contributed to more than 70 titles to a worldwide reading audience and this made me smile his most popular books in the Christian bookseller Association include the list is 16 books long so sort of if he writes it you ought to read it so and introducing and again seems a little awkward because we know why you're all here but for the the friends that you brought with you that are not huge fans of Eric already and they will be by the end of the evening but Eric Metaxas is a number one New York Times bestselling author of if you can keep it read it Bonhoeffer read it amazing grace read it and miracles well you know his books have been translated into more than 25 languages his writing has appeared in The Wall Street Journal the New York Times The New Yorker and the Texas has appeared as a cultural commentator on CNN Fox News Channel and MSNBC he is the host of the Eric Metaxas show a nationally syndicated daily radio show he's a senior fellow and lecturer at large at the King's College in New York City where he lives with his wife and daughter and just a couple of quotes in praise for the book Luther a breathtaking achievement and a gripping read bold fast paced and Magisterial in its hero yet always stylish and witty like its author this account blows the cobwebs off long-settled expectations and helps us to understand the man who shook the medieval world and helped to shape the modern world oz Guinness and I loved Bonhoeffer and I can't wait to read Luther Dave Carl so without further ado please help me welcome Pastor Chuck Swindoll and Eric Metaxas [Applause] you now that that's over I feel like asking the benediction not uh we should sing yes sing Eric but tux was any of that stuff about you true oh you never know no you you really don't know welcome everyone and welcome to you Eric we're so pleased you're not as pleased as I am you're here I am more pleased I am so thrilled to be here I have admired you for so many years and I think if you live long enough you get to hang out with people you admire this pleases me very much oh really thrilled I'm honored to be here well are they gonna be fun before we meet Luther that we meet Eric a little better wouldn't that be great to know a little bit about this man I don't know so who knows what he's gonna ask now so it took us a while to learn how to pronounce your name yeah that has to be a particular nationality you know oddly enough it is it has to be a particular nationality have you ever heard a question like that it's really not it really isn't of course it's like Eric is a very particular name isn't it it's a it really excludes non Eric names if I'm not mistaken I don't how to answer that my dad is Greek so Metaxas is really pronounced mythic sauce my mom is German they met in an English class they came over from Europe individually and they met in an English class in New York City and I don't mean an English literature class I mean a class where you learn how to speak English in the 50s and my as I say my dad is Greek Greek my mom is German German by the grace of Lord they're still with us and if you're raised by a Greek in German that means by definition you will be raised Greek that's just the way it breaks down that's the way it breaks down so he went to the Greek Orthodox Joe you are spoke a little Greek as you were growing up well Greek and German I mean my mom you know when when my grandmother was around we'd speak you know they'd speak German and I'd hear that and my dad you know we'd go hang out in the Greek diners and he talked Greek to his friends and in the church they talk Greek to his friends and so I picked up both sort of you know so I can fake it non German speakers and non Greek speakers I can fool them into thinking that I'm fluent but real speakers will know that I'm not oh I got it okay all right and you live in New York City amazingly enough no I live in New York City I was born in New York City yeah I don't really remember that but I grew up mainly in Danbury Connecticut but as an adult I have been in New York City and we've been there I met my wife in a church in New York City Times Square Church David Wilkerson's yes Church and and so we've been in New York for lo these 20 years oh and that great and you've been on the air two three years I've been doing the radio show most people might not even know I have a nationally syndicated radio show which a lot of people just listen to on podcast you go to Metaxas talk.com but I've been doing it for two and a half years and I love it because I get to interview people like you and I get to interview people totally different from you and I just get to really run the gamut of my interests which is fun because I'm very scattered that's just the way the Lord made me I think orbit might be a product of the fall but one way or the other I am I am scattered and I have very very diverse interests I get to interview different kinds of people so about two-and-a-half years yeah we like you scattered thank you thank you and since you are will say a word about bond offer thank you for introducing us to that magnificent Christian gentleman that means a lot to me because I you know that was without a doubt a serious trial in my life writing it and getting it published it was very painful it's a painful story I write about it in my miracles book honestly I write about what that was but the Lord made it clear to me in his way that he had his hand on this book and it got me through the pain it really was tough I'm not just I'm not blowing smoke but the way the Lord has used that staggers me I am you know when you when you say you're humbled I mean I have been humbled and thrilled to see how he's used this book yeah yeah his death will stay with me because he died on my wife's birthday she had been born earlier than that but April 9 1945 right just shortly before the liberation three weeks before the liberation time I really I weep seriously well don't read it it's that simple that's like the old thing you know the old joke the guy says doctor doctor it hurts when I do this doctor says don't do that haha it's simple it's gonna be a great dumb joke about crying at boner Harper's death that's who I am I'm a sick person help me okay okay sick person let's get underway with the study of Luther you make a statement that Luther really has no beginning yes what does that mean well a life that has no beginning I thought how did I say that it would be a fun first sentence to begin the book by saying the story of Martin Luther has no beginning it sort of contradicts itself because that sentence was the beginning right but in fact that's true what I well it's true what I mean by that is two things first of all and I find all this funny I there's a lot in the Luther book that I find funny and entertaining and one of the things is that we don't know when he was born we know he was born on November 10th but we don't know the year it was either 19 it was either 1482 1483 or 1484 were pretty sure it's 1483 but we don't know and no kidding even his mother didn't know and she was probably in the room at the time would you kind of do the math you figured she had to be nearby and the fact is good gifts even as an adult he didn't know she couldn't remember which sounds crazy but it's a fact so you so you can't say he was born because we don't know the year but we know he was born on November 10th but the reason I I say there are two reasons that there's no beginning and the other one is bizarre if you've read the book the first few pages you already you hit this but this is stunning to my mind absolutely stunning and I'll tell it as quickly as I can but we all know and we'll talk in a few minutes about the very significant thing this moment called Luther stand at the diet of forms in forms Germany we say worms at the diet this big gathering of Ackley's ethical and other dignitaries and Luther makes his great stand for the Christian faith risking his life in 1521 in a place called warms Germany we all we all know that and it's if you have to point to one thing more than anything more than the 1517 nailing the theses that is the moment in his life where he faces death and he stands as a Christian for what he believed so we all know that okay well when I'm doing the research on the book I start right at the beginning I say he's born November 10th the very next day he is baptized because they were so afraid if the child dies the child will go straight to hell we have to baptize the child I mean this was very serious obviously and so he's baptized the next day November 11th which happened to be st. Martin's day in the feast the the feast day of the Catholic Saint Martin and something told me and I suspect it was one of the persons of the Trinity but I I'm not gonna say for sure but I do suspect that it was in fact one of them which nurtured me to look into st. Martin and I don't say this stuff too lightly right I'm not trying to gild the lily here but I do think that for some weird reason that doesn't seem normal I decided to look into who is st. Martin now it seems meaningless I mean if he'd been named Barney or Frank or whatever who cares he's named whatever that the calendar said say Martin stay they named him Saint Martin who cares well for some reason I thought let me look into it so I look into it and I discover as I often do doing this kind of research many things that I don't know I discovered st. Martin was a saint Saint Martin of Tours France who lived in the 400s he was a Roman citizen he became a Christian against his family's wishes and was part of the Roman army but he didn't see any action but one day in a place called Borbon ma goes that's the Latin name he was called to fight in a battle and on his Christian because of his Christian faith he utterly refused to fight to kill he said I will go into the battle and do whatever you like but I will not kill kind of like hacksaw or Ridge because of this he took a stand for his Christian faith against the Roman Empire clearly could have been killed for the stand of faith somehow he's not killed and there's there's certain parallels with Luther in a way because Luther took a stand for his Christian faith could have died stood in front of the Holy Roman Empire not the Roman Empire and all this kind of stuff and I thought this is staggering parallel and it happened in this place called Bohr but to Megos and I look up where's borba to Megos current-day worms Germany that's the sound that I want to I want to I want to can that sound and sell it when I read that did you make that sound when you wrote that no I but silently I thought now I said this is nothing less than a miracle of God this is a prophetic thing that the Lord clearly did and if you think of it it means that the day that Martin was named in fifth 1483 whatever it was that that God had his hand on him it's very curious it's at least curious and fascinating but it took my breath away because by the way nothing has ever happened in worms Germany except the diet of worms have you ever heard of anything happening in where oh yeah this is happening well the only reason we know the word worms Germany is because of what happened with Luther so to read that eleven centuries before the man for whom he was named had taken precisely the same stand in the same place I said if you think that's a coincidence I think you're being irrational so when I say the story has no beginning in a sense it began before the beginning this was somehow it seems to me and again he can't really make perfect sense of this but it really took my breath away and it and I started the book with kind of a spring in my step when I discovered this because by the way I read all these books on Luther no one has ever noticed this before which really I've never heard of it it's you know and maybe I made it up maybe I'm crazy but I'm telling you when you are scattered but I'm scared you're not crazy thank you for corroborating you know what I'm ready to be true yeah now he's from peasant parents correct incorrect that's there's so many things about Luther that we all seem to know we've heard it a million times maybe may not even been named Luther the other day well listened the other day just to show you how we accept these things the other day I was speaking downtown at Presbyterian Church and my wife was in the audience actually might have been in Houston I can't even remember what I was speaking in a church and before I spoke they had big screens up with facts about Martin Luther and then in my talk I said what I'm gonna say now that Luther was not foreign of poor parents he was not born of peasant stock at all that's not true it's one of those things that people say over and over and over it's not true and my wife said Eric you didn't know that why you were speaking they were they had on the thing that he was born of a poor family and peasants died and I said well it just goes to show you everybody says it but it's not true so the fact of the matter is there's a lot in his story and one of the things is that where I realized that this is not true Luther like a politician kind of he kind of made it sound like I have these humble beginnings but the reality was that his father was a successful businessman it's hard to believe that in the 1480s you could have successful businessmen but but there was a free market and he was a mining he was in the business of mining he owned for smelt works so he was well-to-do and he borrowed a significant amount of money from his wife's family to start the business so he was you know on the hook it had to work and he was a hard worker he was not wealthy but Luther there was also archaeology done just a few years ago in months feld which is where they know Luther's houses that you know that he was born and everything and they discovered the houses in fact three times larger than they've been saying for five hundred years so we know for a fact that he grew up with every benefit of you know upper middle class and then some and another one of the conundrum over is that his father was incredibly harsh there was a book written in you may have read it it's called young Luther by this psychoanalyst named Eric Erickson very popular book that really colored out everybody sees Luther along these psychoanalytic lines and it's total garbage it's totally untrue this guy was saying that you know his father you know beat him and was cruel and he hated his father and that's what made Luther in some kind of oedipal spasm you know hate God and and but and it's all untrue Luther's father by every account including Luther's own account in many letters that he wrote was a loving caring father whom Lou they're loved and all of that is kind of made up trendy mid 20th century Freudian nonsense but wasn't it true that he was not pleased that Luther pursued the minister oh yes he was no I'm saying that is true no that's true imagine you pour your life into a kid and and you know you've got everything worked out you sacrifice and sacrifice so that this genius son Martin can go and do what you couldn't do which is studying the University and learn Latin and all this stuff and so Luther is she has just begun Law School because the father had planned that his son would study the law and then come back to the hometown marry one of the local women and join the family business well what happened to Luther was that this is another one of the things that I did bunk people often tell the story as though one day Luther's blithely minding his own business walking you know on the heath in the village of stuttering I'm a thunderstorm comes scares him to death he thinks he's gonna be struck by lightning and enter eternity and he says st. and save me if he saved me I'll become a monk the saint named was the patron saint of miners and he doesn't die and then he thinks well I've just made a vow I guess I've got to become a monk and he becomes a monk and that's of course ridiculous because he had been thinking about his own salvation very much in the years preceding this so the implication that this was just something that he blurts out in a moment of fear and then it changes the course of his whole life is just silly you we have evidence and I put it all in my book obviously that that he had a lot of spiritual guidance that if you're very very sensitive as he was you you would have clearly been thinking about eternity and and it must have been torturing him and he must have already been thinking I don't want to do this now I've my course has said I'm studying law but I can't go back and some people had died who were lawyers right around that time and I give all the details but the point is that he was thinking incessantly about eternity so when the thunderstorm came and he he says this vow which did happen it was only all of these things coming to a head it wasn't some dramatic thing but his father was extremely upset because he had his whole life planned for his son and he thought that his son is throwing his life away you're gonna go to a monastery we're never gonna see you you're gonna spend all your time praying and later in life Luther kind of agreed with his father it's interesting he kind of realized that I disobeyed my father you know that's one of the commandments honor your father and mother and and you really so it's sort of complicated but there is no doubt that his father was furious and that he didn't even tell his father because he knew that it that his father if that's my wife I'm not here that it that that that so anyway I don't want her to know I'm doing this kind of stuff so how silly forgive me but anyway so he goes to the monastery and two years later when he performs his first mass when he becomes a priest his father does come and it's very clear and again obviously the details are in the book but it's clear that they have have already by that point completely made up and you know it's it's it's it's it's tense but at the same time it's pretty clear that it was okay you mentioned earlier the statement he makes at warms which you know yeah men they know about that yeah if they know of little else right regarding him put that in context and talk about the sweeping difference that statement is made oh it's we could be here for days but I'll give the super short answer it basically well just to put it chronologically so we're celebrating the 500th anniversary right now of what happened in 1517 which was when he nails the 95 theses to the door of the Vinton burg castle Church to dispute this issue of indulgences and that basically kicks off totally unintentionally a dramatic debate where he becomes the center of attention and he becomes demonized as a troublemaker and he's he's trying to explain himself and people are in effect saying just shut up and and recant what you've said and so this goes on and on and he finally is called in a sentence on the carpet in 1521 in the city of forms as we mentioned to appear before the papal delegate who came all the way from Rome now by the way he was supposed to go to Rome but his local Prince the Prince of Saxony actually the Duke understood that if Luther goes all the way to Rome he may never come back he may be burnt at the stake and I know you know all this better than I do but I wrote the book so please what he does I know when I'm talking to Chuck so he knows this stuff better than I do for decades but i i I'll pretend that I that I because I know but but the thing is that he yeah yeah that's that hurt that hurt what he just said so so I so it is so but it but it is so funny there's so many there's so much an interplay so many forces so so Luther doesn't mean to you know to be shaking his fist he sometimes portrayed as though when he nails the 95 theses or when he goes to worms like he's going defiantly and it seems clear that when he says those famous words here I stand I can do no other god help me amen when he says those things he has been cornered in other words they have said to him we don't want to hear your explanations we don't want to get into the scriptures we want you to shut up and go away you are you've been trouble you've stirred people up you've dragged the church's name through the mud none of which he intended and that's especially in the beginning I mean he really was trying hard to help the church authorities see what he saw he's thought I've been doing a faithful thing for them and and they're gonna thank me but but of course it doesn't go that way and by the time he is that room he's standing with the most wealthy powerful people in the world and he is obviously a humble monk wearing you know amongst habit I if I remember he borrowed one of his friends habits that was a little more upscale because he thought this is you know I'm speaking to people who who are there they're wearing fur and gold and jewels and and and here I come in and so he comes in there and is really hoping that they will give him an opportunity to explain why he said what he said and they don't as I said they basically say are these your books yes or no do you recant yes or no and he kept trying to answer in and so finally he says if you don't show me where I went wrong and he was very humble and said I'm prepared to to hear that I've made some mistakes or something but it but if you can't point it out to me if you won't I'm stuck I can't recant it's it's like somebody says you want to take a plea bargain he say well you're gonna make me sign this paper to say that I did stuff that I didn't do I I can't do that I'm stuck and he basically said I can't take the plea bargain in a sense I can't walk out of here with with by telling you what you want to hear you have to show me exactly and they refused and so he finally says the famous words here I stand I can do no other it's it's sort of like we would say I'm stuck yeah I'm cornered I can't there's nothing I can say and and and that's what he said and but the effect I mean he were really asking me about the effect it's it's startling that that day when he did that even though he didn't realize he was doing this big brave thing he didn't even know if he would live to see the next month what he ended up doing that day by speaking truth to power the first example of this this kind of a thing in history apart from Jesus of course he he is well I shouldn't say that it's it's this it's a it's an epic amoment in history others had done it before but somehow when he did it it opened the door to what we call the future I say that he was the and that created the future the man that discovered the future by by holding the gospel up in this way he did something that changed the world forever and ever and and all of the freedoms that we take for granted the very idea of democracy the idea that the individual can speak against power and that all of these things the whole modern world started that day and it's not an overstatement to say that I'm convinced that that is exactly what happened on that day informs is you're writing and you come to these epical moments what happens to an author as you're sitting there picturing it writing of it rather than addressing Luther for a moment put us in your shoes with pen in hand or computer in front of you and you relive that what happens to Eric Metaxas I I guess in a way what I try to do when I'm writing all of these books is I try simply to get all the facts out in other words I'm sort of thinking about did I miss anything is there anything I don't want to give people a false impression I don't want to I don't want to so so I'm thinking about what are the details that I can discover to make it real and I for some reason we're all different but for some reason that's what animates me as a writer is is to get it all right and maybe I can find something that somebody else hasn't put in or or something but there's there's just so much going on and it's only really in retrospect that I'm able to reflect on the momentous nasaw scene and then maybe I'll go back and add something but at first I'm just trying to make sure I get it right and I'm what fascinates me is how many books don't quite get right they give you a certain impression then I look into it I think that's not quite right and I I feel like one thing that I can do for history is is get it right so that future writers can look at my book and know that the the you know the line is plumb and that the angles are right angles and it's it's it's a sure foundation so to speak I feel like that's the least we can do and so that does give me joy that gives me joy I love the way you described him as not being one who set out to begin a movement yeah not even close he was that wasn't why he mailed no back you questions yes in fact if in fact founded right that on boot on the door that's roughly counsel it's one of those other things that we can't know whether he nailed the theses to the door on October 31st probably didn't we can't even know whether he nailed the theses to the door it is possible that he used the jar of paste and pasted it to the door much less heroic than nailing it to the door it's possible that he handed the 95 theses to the church custodian said will you put this up on the bulletin board because that's all it was was a bulletin board people think he said hey I know what I could do it make a big statement nail it on the church door well you know if your cat was missing you would paste the thing to the church we'd say can you help me find smokey if he any any information leading to please call this number I mean it was just a bulletin board and all he was doing was posting a notice that we're gonna have a debate among the theologians it wasn't even a public statement this is a great moment you to interrupt and enter in the name Guttenberg oh yes yes without having any idea that's going on behind the scenes the dovetailing of the printing press yep with Luther's 995 yeah well that's that's what's so fascinating is that there were other reformers who said almost exactly what Luther said a hundred years earlier yon hoose yes the famous Hungarian we're cliffed the Wickliffe in Dale I mean there are other people I mean you know and and then there are some reformers like Saint Francis who never were incendiary or troublemaking but that's just because they had a good Pope or they had a good - who knows but but Wickliffe and and Johnny on whose they had said almost exactly what Luther said but the church and the power was able to sort of contain the trouble and crush it and burn them at the stake and that was the end of that the difference was when Luther brought his information forward the printing press existed which of course it did not in 1415 when when hoose was condemned and people without even asking Luther took the 95 theses that oh this looks interesting they translated into German and they printed it and it sold like hotcakes the next thing you know everybody in Europe not just Germany is reading these 95 theses thinking hey this is a hot potato this is the Pope's not gonna like this it started to get kind of you know beyond the horse got out of the barn and there was no bringing it back in so everything he wrote then he would preach a sermon to clarify like oh listen I don't read the theses let me let me give my my more considered thinking on the subject of indulgences I'll preach a sermon I better preach a sermon and clarify because people are all hot-headed about the 95 theses which I only meant for other theologians to read in Latin but now everybody's talking about it so he preaches a sermon and prints it up and translated as a German and then that gets distributed and then the archbishop says to him well you know that's causing trouble too can you can you can you stop distributing that can he say well of course he was very humble in fact but eventually Luther learned to use the medium of printing and he could get his message out to the people there really had never been a people before they were just there was rulers and the people whom they ruled and they had nothing to say about anything but suddenly Luther his writings are getting out there and the people are reading it they're getting excited and they're thinking this man speaks for us he's saying exactly what's true he's talking about the corruption he's talking about this he's talking about that and this is exactly what we feel and so as I say the horse got out of the barn and so even if they had killed Luther the movement these intellectual ideas were out and there was no bringing him back had a life of its own no question no question yeah now at that point after forms his life is it's hanging in the balance yes love to silence him yes it's kind of I mean what happened after that this is another one of the reasons I'm so excited about this book because it's a it's a very entertaining story you couldn't make it up I mean for example that he goes to forms this dramatic thing happens he's declared a heretic he's declared not just a heretic but now an outlaw meaning that the Pope says he's a heretic but then the Holy Roman Emperor declares him an outlaw because if the Pope says you're a heretic you are now also illegal you're an outlaw renegade and so they let him go back home but it's pretty clear that as soon as he gets home there's gonna be you know somebody's gonna come to arrest him and then he's gonna be taken to Rome and he's gonna be burned at the stake so his protector in a way Frederick the 3rd Frederick the wise who he sense that this is not quite right and also they're these weird nationalistic political what's the term I'm looking for the these I was gonna say trends influences really that that are going through this where Frederick concered says wait a second Rome those Italians are not treating him right they didn't give him a fair hearing and I don't want him to go to go down there and be killed and whatever so here's what we're gonna do we're gonna kidnap him and it's not of a movie right that he is on the way home from forms going home and he knows this is gonna happen they've told him but they told him they didn't tell him who's gonna kidnap you nor where they're gonna take you you know nothing just go along with it and they kidnap him with crossbows drawn it's actually kind of a scary scene and I paint it as vividly as I could because I thought this was real this was the people in the wagon didn't know that this was fake and so Luther is kidnapped by these strangers and dragged through the night to a castle called the Vaart Borg which we were just talking about it's way up in the Tyrrhenian forest and it's this castle and nobody knows he's there and then if that's not you know exciting enough he has to be disguised so he grows out his tonsure you know the Tantra they would shave their their heads he grows out his hair and he grows a beard a Cavaliers beard to look like a knight because he has to blend in with the other knights at the castle they're not told that this is Martin Luther so they call him Knight George or Yunker georg and he's now incognito as a night in the castle for a year and of course while he's there he's dressed as a knight and he's kind of bored because he's a very busy guy when he's back home now he has nothing to do so what does he do he translates the New Testament into German in 11 weeks just a little project good and I'm thinking that some of us would be challenged to read the New Testament in 11 weeks so that's a binocular yes that's so the common person could that's the thing people say well was this the first time it had been translated into German no but it was the first time it was translated from the original Greek not from the latin vulgate so it was accurate he was obsessed with what exactly does the word of God say what does it say and there were some mistakes in the Latin Vulgate transferred translated by Jerome which the church had accepted and so he wanted to get it exactly right and he wanted to write it in such a way that the common men and women of Germany could understand what it said he knew that this book has never been read by these people and so it's I mean I have to say when you really understand what happened it is exciting it's exciting it remarkable accomplish all it and it listen his writing was so good this is the thing this is this man's nothing but a genius of history his writing was so good that to this day Germans read the Luthor translation I mean it's not like it was some primitive thing that they've improved upon he was a poet with the vernacular know before we deify the man the Jews what you we've got to address his position regarding the Jews absolutely you travel yeah their word is around among the skeptics oh yeah that he is anti-semitic right you believe he was that is the classic yes and no answer because in some ways yes and in some ways no well I devote ten pages to it in the book so I can't really give you the full answer but the short answer is this Luther said many things in his life that were extremely positive about the Jews which were he was way ahead of his time in understanding their plight the way Christians treated them and stuff and so that's never quoted and the Nazis never quoted that but the Nazis cynical satanically influence that they were they found what Luther wrote just a few years before he died he was for him very ill and cranky and he had by that time in his life gotten to where he was saying extraordinarily nasty things about everyone he was vicious his friends told him you know you got to stop tweeting it's not presidential and I oh you know what I'm sorry I I I didn't get a lot of sleep last night I apologize but he was I actually you know it's here I've said this many times now but I said he was so vicious and nasty and and unedited that he got to a point where I say that he he makes Trump look like Mike Pence now I want you to think about that because it's true hit the level of viciousness you say that in the book no probably not I know but it's kind of you just get the impression that he all of his friends seriously in fact I say it at that right at the end of the book at his funeral at his very funeral his dearest friend Melanchthon is saying in his eulogy that Luther was not a perfect guy he said he we wished he hadn't said this and we wished he hadn't so so everybody kind of knew it but the point is that Luther was vicious to the Catholics and to the Pope and I quote some of it because it's very funny and very vicious and very crazy he was vicious to his fellow Protestants with whom he disagreed vicious vicious to the Muslims but of course nobody ever hears about that you only hear about what he said about the Jews why because the Nazis grabbed what he said about the Jews and they said look our national hero the sainted Luther said this they didn't quote what he said about Jesus and about loving your neighbor and about he said 99.9 percent of what he said the Nazis didn't want to quote and didn't believe in despise but they found just what he said and so everybody today says he was an anti-semite he said this and he said that well what he said is horrible let's not you know sugarcoat it but when you put it in context it's at least different than simply horrible it's it's far more complicated but it does help us the only upside is it helps us not to deify him not to think of him as perfect but to say he was in some ways very screwed up but look how God used him nonetheless which is encouraging let's look at the fun side of a man I love the stories of his role as a husband and as a father those are wonderful you know what it is there's a playfulness yes about that genius that is so rare among genius I have to say that's that is quite right he was I mean this is one of the most beautiful things that fairly late in life for him he was one and he decides to get married and it wasn't because he was lusting and he said I've got to get married it wasn't because he was madly in love and he had to marry this woman he found himself in a place in life where this nun had escaped from the nunnery actually Luther sprang her from the jug he was the you know the main the main Orchestrator of this escape of the NIMH shinto what 12 nuns from NIMH ssin we call them the NIMH ssin 12 and they had to figure out what they're gonna do you can't just these nuns had been there against their will and he thought it's not right and they need to be able to make their own decisions if they don't want to be nuns they shouldn't have to be nuns and so this was highly illegal and he Springs them out of there and suddenly where do they come they all come to Vidhan burg and sort of say well okay now what do we do so he had to get them married off I mean he had to find them you know a position in a house or so they had to do something because they were poor and one of them didn't want to marry the man that they had kind of picked for her and she was kind of brassy and outspoken you know instead of saying okay thank you very much I'll marry this guy she she didn't like him and she told Luther's friend Nicholas Vaughn um store I really don't want to marry that guy and she said rather cheekily I would marry you meaning Nicholas phenoms Dorf or dr. Luther and so in a way she's the one that proposed it's very funny um Storyful was not at all interested in marrying and Luther somehow his head got turned slightly around at first he thought she was arrogant or something but at some point he decided he esteemed her that's the the phrase that I use and I think that he uses that he really respected her she was only she was 15 years younger far less educated but he really really respected her and that grew into a beautiful and deep love that is so beautiful that it should be a model for all of us we're all looking for these feelings and stuff he had this really beautiful relationship the two of them steamed each other and loved each other and they had six kids and he loved his kids and it shows you a dramatically different side the playful side of the human side of Martin Luther sum up the life of Luther for us someone who writes as you've written with so many details give us an overview of his contribution for example go to the subject of if he were to visit and take a look at the American church which American church isn't that the question we always think oh it's the evangelicals no no there's other people that claim to be part of the church I think he'd have a few words for them I think he'd have a few words for the cafeteria Catholics and say at least have the guts to to walk away like I did if you don't believe what they're teaching I think he would have choice words for everyone this was a man who took God extraordinarily seriously and took the gospel of grace extraordinarily seriously and would have said what Bonhoeffer said that that the gift of grace is the most expensive gift in the world and if you don't appreciate it you clearly don't understand it and therefore are actually not saved that you know that should scare us right that if you understand it you will live your whole life in response with joy and gratitude to the gift and if you don't do that if you say well hey God save me everything's great you clearly haven't accepted the gift which again should should scare us into thinking more deeply but I think that he was not a diplomat so I think he would have some some harsh words for the church he just wasn't as nice as we are Chuck and the role of will and the role of melanchthon in his life was profound oh yeah there were there are so many characters or another one of the reasons again that I found this I mean actually I think I can say truly this is the FIR book that I have written I think it's my 10th book not including kids books and and I think it's the first book I've written that I actually enjoyed writing in a way because it is so entertaining as so many colorful characters and so many important people melanchthon is just one of this host of characters melanchthon was as calm and sober and thoughtful and diplomatic as Luther was the antithesis of all those those things and you realize that that's important that you need somebody like that Melanchthon was able to temper Luther and you know there's a classic example of why does the body of Christ have so many different people because God needs us to be different but Melanchthon was the linguistic genius he was the Bible teacher extraordinaire who got generations of Vinton Berg students excited about learning the original Greek New Testament you know that's that's pretty exciting because all of those people went on to be pastors and you know you think how did we get here well a lot of those people whose names we don't know who were in those classes that melanchthon taught you know they lived out their faith and so it's it is exciting you've written on bought off her you've now written on Luther compare the two writing experiences and how the two men were alike and how they were very different in the next 60 second here both chairman's they're both Lutheran's they were both from the eastern part of Germany the Bahnhof a book is is dramatically different because it's of course very serious and in many ways sad and tragic I don't think it's depressing but it's sobering and you know you said and I correct my stupid joke but of course people say that they they weep at the end and it's it's very moving and there are light parts in it but by and large it's a tough story you're talking about the Holocaust and and this horrible thing and the story of Luther is dramatically different and and that's why I was excited about it because the writing of the Bonhoeffer book was very difficult not just because of the subject material but just the whole process of it was an agony of Agony's for my in my life this was in some ways a joy and-and-and a blessing and so this book I think without any doubt is more entertaining to read and more of a fun read much fewer Nazis in this book and that's by design that is by design I didn't want I said I'm not gonna put any Nazis in this book keep it light so it's uh I hope I actually there's actually a lot of humor in this book because they're in there with these delightful things that I discovered I said this is so funny and so delicious I've got to put it in even when you know it seemed a little bit extraneous there's a couple of things in the beginning of the book that are so bizarre I talked about Pope Leo the tenth and I thought you know we need a little shadow school row a little contrast to say okay Luther's this but who was he fighting against what was going on in Rome who was the Pope and who were the dignitaries that were opposing him and Pope Leo of course was was the Pope and his story is hilarious you can't even believe the decadence and and it's unselfconscious decadence it's not like the corruption of the Medici Pope's it's just this kind of freewheeling hey I'm the Pope let's have a good time let's spend some money and you it's hilarious I mean he he had an elephant the Pope had an elephant there's a book called the Pope's elephant where I got all the materialistic hilarious the the the the the King of Portugal to curry favor with the Vatican sent him an African elephant and he loved the elephant and he spent money on the elephant and he did that as a favor ah yeah it's like he sent me a horse and I think okay now I gotta feed it but but it's just a level of it's almost like you're talking about a Roman Emperor and not one of the good ones you know the Pope was this face oh there's a lot of funny stuff stuff that actually cracks me up if it doesn't crack you up I apologize but I just there was a lot of stuff and or Luther is himself earthy and entertaining and that of course that gives me joy because I want people to enjoy reading it I don't want them to feel that this is a dip cult thing it shouldn't be this is an amazing story sure yeah well we've gone from worms to elephants so let's open the floor to some questions I see our master of ceremonies walking up to let us know so if you have questions feel free to come to either microphone and we'll take them in line we also have a little something Chuck for Eric yes we do oh it's it's never to be forgotten moment I'm scared let's save it okay we'll save it yes sir thank you for your book on bahnhof or elles great what about Luthor's attitude towards swingley at the Marburg colloquy what about it you think he treated him poorly or actually yes I do I see this cracks me up I go to I go to these things and then people ask me about stuff that you know a year ago I never heard of the Marburg colloquy I didn't even really understand the word colloquy so thank you for demonstrating your you're learning because I know there many people here that you know more about Luther than I you know I'm a newbie on the subject but I have to say that I was very entertained by this is another one these things I find humor and everything but but Luther you know to say that he took the truth seriously is putting it mildly he was so intense about everything and his understanding of communion I mean he risked his life for this you know we we don't we kind of thing care whatever he risked his life because he said that in the the Catholic Church their concept of transubstantiation was an Aristotelian construction and it was wrong it was not biblical you you got to break that down that's that's dude that's a lot of theological gobble that shot ahead a lot of blown smoke I don't even know what it means I thought that they I get I thought I could get away with that and now you're embarrassing me No okay I'll explain it actually I got to tell you this really fascinated me and it almost made me want to officially tomorrow morning I'm coming I'm coming to to swingley but but the point is that the reason this whole swingley thing was so charged was because of Luther's view on on communion and he said and this is I genuinely find this so fascinating and it's one of the themes that runs through the book and I ought to talk about it more because it's really at the heart of his whole theology is that he says look God does not want to replace us with holy ghosts right he wants to redeem humanity in all of our blood and guts and feces and sex and I mean think about it he doesn't say oh all that stuff is dirty we want to do away with that he says no no God became a man right and God wants to redeem everything he wants to redeem sex and marriage and he doesn't want to do away with it he doesn't want to make you celibates so that's a dramatic thing oh I heard it for ya amen amen st. amen interesting ladies so if you if you follow the this logic when it comes to the issue of transubstantiation he said and it took me a long time to figure this out I was very proud of myself that I finally figured this out he said that transubstantiation is the same false idea that the Catholic Church using Aristotle adopted and that the idea is that at communion now listen carefully because it's tricky at communion the bread and the wine cease to be bread and wine they become the body and blood swing leaned over there they've become I know it's upsetting they become but they really trying to become they become no longer the bread and the wine they become the body and blood of Jesus Christ now Luther said wait a second so you're telling me that God gets rid of the bread and gets rid of the wine and replaces it that's transubstantiation it's this Aristotelian idea that it can still look like bread and wine but in fact it is not bread and wine Luther said that's wrong it is still bread and wine but God redeems and blesses and invests the bread and wine with his real presence so Jesus is alive and real in the bread and wine so it is his body and blood but it still is also the bread and the wine the bread and the wine haven't been abolished with his body and blood he said that's a weird Aristotelian philosophical construct that that we have dragged in and it's not biblical but this applies to everything in other words when you become a Christian you don't become a ghost you become humanity redeemed and I thought he's on to something huge and that this goes all through his theology so in 15 29 or 30 there's this famous colloquy in Marburg where's Ving Lee who doesn't believe in Luther's doctrine of the real presence comes and they have a debate and Luther was not very kind to Zwingli and in my book I say this I actually say this from you know I love saying what can we know exactly that happened and what it seems to me that what happened we can know is that Luther was not very nice he was not very kind he was so obsessed with the truth that he didn't care about Zwingli's feelings and swingley actually wept because swingley said you know I've revered this man named Luther and he treats me like a dog or something he's treated me like I'm a heretic and I'm trying to you know in other words I swingley was effectively saying like what can we agree to disagree can we be friends we're brothers in Christ and it's as if Luther said no and so that's the long answer would you prefer the short answer to the mighty give you both but anyway it but it I just wanted to talk because that's a really important theological concept so Luther was so invested and instead of somebody disagreed with him he was not nice about it thank you sir we have a question from Facebook where Jeff asks I have read that Luther was obsessed with atoning for his sins is that true that he was obsessed with atoning for sins yes what happened I don't I don't think we covered this we're basically Luther enters the monastery with the with the hope that he will be able to be justified before God and that he will be able to go to heaven he was really really afraid of entering eternity and going to hell he was really afraid so he said I've got to become a monk he becomes a monk and then he just works like a maniac praying harder than anybody fasting till he's skin and bones depriving himself kind of like you get a little of that if you read George Whitefield or David Brainerd you know you get these these people that are so fanatical about their faith that they do these crazy things somehow thinking that this is gonna earn their way into heaven and and the worst part of it was that Luther believed now think about this I mean later on he taught that when you make a confession to God and you repent to God your good faith is all you need and God will forgive you but the church taught and Luther eventually fought viciously with this concept the church said it doesn't matter what is in your heart and with God you have to go to a priest only the priest has the right and the authority granted to him by Christ to absolve you of your sin so if you do not confess your sin officially with a priest it is still on you it's still on the books and will drag you to hell forever now if you take that as seriously as Luther took it you would never leave the confession booth because you thought well you know what last Tuesday prayed for five hours straight and I had a flicker of pride at having prayed for five hours straight and that pride is a sin and I got to confess it one day he confessed for six hours straight and his father confessor who's another major figure in the book of lunch Talpa it's basically said Luther bring the adulterer he bring me murder I can't take this anymore this is that's not a joke that's in the book and that's a fact buncha topics was teasing him and he was serious he said you're driving me crazy I can't take it anymore you hate God and you think God hates you God loves you but Luther couldn't take it in so the again that's the long answer the short answer is yes and by the way online we have over 800 people viewing this right now so oh great thank you for joining us yes sir yes sir would you talk a moment about his table talks and the implications for Christian education no all right you said it so nicely yet well it's actually a wonderful thing Luther later in life of course he gets married and the Augustinian monastery in Vinton burg is emptied of monks so it's basically given to him as a gift from the local Duke Duke the local Duke and and here Luther you can live in it with your wife but it's pretty big so Luther they said make it a boarding house and students will live here and will feed them we'll make a little money that way because Luther was you know poor and struggling so they would they ran like a boarding house but at the table every night or many nights Luther would sit there and hold court and pontificate no pun intended and he thank you thank you and and he would say these amazing things that's like sitting with an Oracle they thought we're sitting here with Martin Luther and they wrote down what he said they would they would take notes and then some of them published it and so you get all these different versions of all these things that Luther said so it's like having a tape recording in this incredible room for years and so some of the accounts kind of conflict with each other because all these people took their own notes and it's it's a wonderful thing because you can see Luther's sort of as he was at table pontificating joking he joked a lot and that to me makes him delightful because he was so serious but he also was able to tease and and to see the humor in life and so there are all these volumes of table talk that have been published and as far as the implications for Christian education I think you can get it right from Jesus Jesus didn't come down to earth hand out some mini graph sheets and say I'll see ya he lived among us because he thought that that was valuable that humans transmitted to humans it's Bonhoeffer did it in the inn's inkstand thinkin Volta you you you learn from being around people and there's something very very vital about the scripture and it gets right to what I was saying again about Luther it's about people it's about humanity it's a not it's not about Bloodless ideas there are a lot of people even in the church and I won't mention Dallas Theological Seminary because that would be cruel because but I can't resist but the point is that there are some people in the church who really are obsessed with ideas and they forget ultimately it's not about ideas it's about people Luther got that and he brought that theology kind of everywhere and it's it's important so thanks that's a great question thank you ma'am I have a couple questions as I listened to you I was very interested or intrigued how you sort of jumped around into different aspects of Luther so number one I was wondering how did you get interested in him how did what triggered you to write this book and how did you possibly write an outline of what you're going to cover when you said you didn't know much about him or what you found out was different from what you thought well one of the things to say is that writing for me can be very difficult it's like moving bricks people think you're you know in a cabin in the pines overlooking a lake and it just things come to you writing can be very hard work I know pastor swindle you know this it's just hard and so for me writing a biography one of the great things about writing a biography is you don't have to invent the plot it's already been lived you start with when he was born you end with when he died in other words it already has this arc and you just have to hit the important points and when you read all the books on Luther it's pretty clear what's important and what's not and so you don't have to make an outline it's how did you get interested right yeah I after Bonhoeffer because it really was a painful experience I said I will never write up another biography I have many things I want to do many things I want to write and I'm I'm pretty sure I will never write another biography but some years ago a couple of friends of mine Greg Thornbury who's the president of the Kings College a Christian college in New York City where I lived very dear friend he started twisting my arm along with another friend Marcus speaker I dedicate the book to both of them they said Eric 2017 is the big anniversary now not not being a Lutheran or a seminary student at any point in my life I I was vaguely aware I wasn't really paying attention but they said you wrote Bonhoeffer you must write the book on Luther and they effectively connect wist at my arm and convinced me of what an extraordinary story it was and and and the more I learned from them the more I understood the significance the outrageous significance I mean I have said there's no hyperbole I believe he is the most important person in in history in the last 2,000 years apart from Jesus when you look at what happened as a result of what he did you can't even begin to come I don't know who would be next I can't think of anybody who would be a close second to Luther and and so much that I cherish follows from what he did so they convinced me of that and then I have to say that as I looked into it he was so I remember when I wrote the Bonhoeffer book I did some research on Luther and I remembered what an entertaining figure he is the things that he said very funny very provocative and I thought I think I could have fun with this and after Bonhoeffer which as I say was very difficult for me in many ways the thought of writing about somebody so entertaining and a story that's so entertaining an important I I finally was convinced but it really was the 500th anniversary that forced me to focus on it second only to Jesus the most books written today is there Luther really yes Wow so you stepped into a hornet's nest I'm gonna get attacked admire the fact that you would do that and my you had vast number of works around you many of whom many of which would contradict I'm sure you would run across that I think it's it's funny I mean there's so many things written about him I just you know you I have to be honest you say I'm just gonna do my best and let people if people are upset I mean somebody in Publishers Weekly attacked me that I didn't cover you know the the bigamy thing whatever and I thought well that's a fair point I get but at some point you just you write what you're right run there it is and you know people have to take it for what it is Eric from facebook asks we still sing a hymn written by Luther a mighty fortress is our God did he do a lot of music writing and was music an important part of his worship life there's so much about Luther that's important I always forget something and I didn't really write about this very much even in the book but yes you could just talk about one of the most monumental things he ever did was introduce the concept basically I mean it's not that it didn't exist at all but basically it didn't exist congregational singing in every Catholic Church today the congregation opens up a hymnal and sings hymns some of which were written by Martin Luther I mean it is so ubiquitous at this point that you can't imagine a church without it and Luther introduced this and he was trying to figure out how can we practically get people excited about their faith how can we instruct people one of the ways is through music he was very smart and very creative and very practical and so he wrote many hymns himself and in the book I talk about how he's kind of dragged gooning his friends into writing hymns he's like hey you you know you're pretty smart he says to ship Alateen another one of these figures and he says could you look through the Scriptures and you know translate some of the Psalms maybe into a song and and kind of get that to me on Monday you know and I he was really and he taught himself to play the lyre he had he heard he cut himself he almost died when he was a student and he taught himself during this convalescence to play the lyre so he would play music and he was very musical and music was extremely important to him yes sir Erik thanks for making history so approachable and enjoyable my favorite book of yours is if you can keep it is there anything you can share about the writing of the book and how it affected your own faith this book yes it's you know it's still fresh enough that it's hard to say I think it makes you think kind of like the question about the Marburg colloquy and kind of like our president today makes you think about Luther was at times very harsh and blunt and some of the people around him were not and you realize there can be a role for that but at what point is it about quote/unquote grace and at what point is it about truth we're all living through that right now and I think that the church is living through that right now and I think that his story helps us to see as Bonhoeffer's does that there is a time to take a stand and not to say well whatever or I don't want to hurt your feelings you have to do it in the right way and I'm not convinced Luther did but I think that when you see when you read his story and you experience it you can't help but think about that balance between grace and truth love and truth so that that's kind of where I am with it right now I'm sure in six months or a year it will have percolated so that I'm thinking other things but that's probably about it yes ma'am but if you were to ever meet Martin Luther what would the number one question be to ask him I'm sorry what what would the number one question be to ask him that you know that would that's a great question and I have no idea I just think I would adore him he seemed like just a just one of those people you just you just want to hang around and and hear what's gonna come out of his mouth there's something delightful about him so I don't know maybe I'd ask him you know what'd you have for dinner and he could restaurants around here I don't know actually I really don't know that's a that's a good question all right we have from Brenda on Facebook asks what is the fish barrel incident and is it true that Howie that is how his wife escaped yeah I can't talk about that right now that's well my lawyer tells me that I shouldn't but I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about it there are a number of things in the story of Luther that I said earlier that everybody knows it's true and then I discovered it might not be true Luther everywhere you go I mean I think almost every single book I read about Luther said that when the ningen 12 those nuns escaped from the monastery we know that they were they went onto a wagon driven by a guy named Leonard klaapa I think was his name Luther knew him and everybody says that the wagon this big wagon contained the barrels of herring herring barrels which had been emptied or whatever but they still stank of herring these smelly barrels of herring and that all of the nuns hid inside the herring barrels and that's been said a million times everybody knows it's true well I did some research and I discovered not only might it not be true but we can be sure that it not true it did not happen I traced it to something that somebody said around 1600 somebody who had been alive you know an older person said it was as if they had been on a barrel of herring or say he just kind of cracked a joke or made a point and history grabbed it and ran with it and they say it over and over but we can know there's certain cases where you can't quite know did this happen we don't know did he nail the theses on October 31st we don't know we don't know maybe maybe in this case we can know he definitely she definitely did not escape in a barrel that had previously contained fish well I'm personally disappointed but anyway I was disappointed too I wanted it to be true I think this gentleman was before me yeah yeah you talked about in the book about Luther being sort of in a way like the founder of the modern world or at least the guy who started the modern world and you talked about democracy earlier and I think you mean like democracy with individual liberty and liberty of conscience contrary as well and I guess my question is was Luther actually a proponent of individual conscience or was that sort of just an outgrowth of I disagree and then that sort of fractured the central authority and that became something that was a practical necessity for living together where'd you get these smart people I you guys are way smarter than my other audiences I got to tell you that is you are exactly correct that Luther definitely did not he first of all we misunderstand and I do write that about this in the book because it's a very important point people talk about conscience right Luther's concept of conscience was dramatically different from our concept of conscience we when we talk about conscience my conscience tells me it almost sets up a subjectivity as though whatever my conscience tells me is true Luther would say absolutely not the only thing that's true is what is true what the Word of God says who cares about your conscience and how you feel the way he used the word he was saying in a sense logic applied to the Word of God dictates this and so the word conscience or whatever the German word is or the the I know I have it in the book but it really is different and so the way it has kind of moved through history is in fact a little different from how he meant it and he really didn't care what he thought he cared what the scripture taught but he did believe that God has given us the ability to apprehend truth it's not just hey who's to say he said what we can say if we put our minds to it that's why he wanted debate that's why at the diet of worms he was hoping they would ask him hard questions and he could defend so they could all come to an understanding they didn't give him that opportunity so so it is really true that that was not his intention and that all of the ramifications of what happened were not his intention I think sometimes if you simply represent the truth of the gospel the truth of the word of God that the truth of of anything it has infinite ramifications and in his case because of the way history was sort of hinged at that moment he opens the door to everything a Whitfield who I argue in my book if he can keep it without Whitfield's preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ up and down the thirteen colonies there is no America it need people needed to hear over and over and over you answer to God you don't answer to a tyrant in in England or to some priest telling you what to do you must answer to God you must have a personal relationship with Jesus and when people realize that they thought oh we're free in other words the ramifications lead to democracy and freedom you know not exactly but but basically they do but Luther I think it's fair to say did not appreciate the the out workings of that he certainly didn't when it came to religious liberty what he wrote about the Jews revealed a very primitive view of religious liberty which he had in fact created in a way he created religious liberty but didn't see the implications of what he had himself you know put out there so thank you that's a great question you know a classic illustration of Luther allowing the scriptures to speak with that sense of authority is the just shall live by faith and that was never allowed to say what it said that's right until he said but that is what it says yes and I take my stand that's it and I'm stuck we're sick that's what it says in the church I mean this is a dramatic thing he said that look we have a problem because whatever the church is teaching must bow to this and the church was saying no no no yeah we interpret scripture wrong bowed to us as a turn and he said no we all bow to this and it was on that simple difference Chuck that the world was cracked in half and the future flew out yeah got it well Steve our chivalrous friend I have two questions but I'm gonna forget the first one because what you are hating on and my Latin is a little rusty but so shame on you but it's a pretty soul of Sophia yeah yeah yeah yeah and grace you want to highlight that you have been highlighting that this evening but can I go back to my first question I don't know okay this this happens to do with with Communion and I think if I'm correct that Luther said in with and under the the wine and the grape is the wine in the and the wafers yes Jesus body and blood and as you yeah mentioned his presence yes yes physical presence yeah in some district can you kind of theologically explain that Luther's view from observing communion as just a simple remembrance I mean I was already convinced to this I mean I was raised in the Greek Orthodox Church and I always have felt when I have been at a church and I currently attend a church and have attended churches where Communion is treated dramatically likely compared to how it had been treated historically and I do think that we lose some of the mystery and the power of communion by simply think of it as a memorial I actually think that's wrong I don't feel strongly about it I wouldn't I won't go to that church I attend churches that that that observe it that way but I was convicted as I understood Luther's point I thought he is on to something huge here and I don't think that we should dismiss the historical Church the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church that they have this this tradition that there is something secret about communion so when I see people take communion lightly I think they're missing something some of the best churches I've ever attended take it lightly and so you know there's no such thing as a perfect Church and you know the story if you find one don't join it because you'll spoil it right so and and thank you so much I think we're letting Pastor Chuck off a little easy this evening how about we go to those other three on Scripture and grace and faith and and allow him to preach in here every Sunday you know you do have been a-been same in it but he's gonna you know what what an emphasis that was for Luther right Charles from Facebook while I agree that Luther did the right thing when it comes to the Reformation is there any way he could have led the Reformation from inside the Catholic Church that we could have avoided the major split which until today has been the slippery slope of split after I live I it's funny because we we talked about this pastors Wendall and I we I mean we it seems it seemed clear to me as I read and read and read it seemed super clear to me that it definitely need not have gone this way that the reform could have come from within the church if they had only been reasonable or less addicted to power or whatever or sometimes think just things just break wrong you know like on a in a ball field the ball takes a funny hop and you there's no explanation that's just the way it goes it seems to me that the ball took a lot of funny hops and we ended up with this dramatic break but it need not have happened Luther didn't dream that this could happen I mean when he started he didn't dream that it would be possible for the church to split he was convinced there's only one church and and we're gonna argue and right but there's only one to the fact that they push him out and somehow this other church grows up I think was shocking to him and strange to him and of course when he opened the door to a second church that same door that he opened is the door to 10,000 churches and 50,000 churches he didn't like that any more than the I can liked him opening the door to a second church because he really believed truth is truth and you know with zingy and others everybody had their different points of view I think Luther really well I think there's no question that he hadn't intended it and that I think that God could have chosen to reform the church from within but somehow it that's simply not what happened that's another mystery last question for the evening hey Dave I've got both I guess a statement and a question first of all the statement cuz I haven't heard anybody references so far was because I have to go pick up my kids own pillow thank you personally for doing Socrates in the city and putting that online on YouTube so if anybody doesn't it was bored on YouTube thank you Socrates in the city it's it's amazing to see the intellects well I want to say anytime anybody references anything I've done like that you can't know how how it blesses me because a lot of what I write and do you know most people aren't aware of it most people don't know I've got a radio show the Socrates in the city things it's a bunch of conversations kind of like this that I've had with certain people in New York and actually I did them in England and even in France last year but wonderful conversations with some people and the fact that you know it exists sometimes NRB broadcasts them I think on Friday nights and you can see them all on on YouTube but it just means a lot to me thank you for for mentioning that you're welcome the last one I watched with alice von Hildebrand's and two of her books to write up this morning though and again nothing could make me happier than the fact that somebody can tune in to Socrates in the city and be introduced to somebody that they probably didn't know Alice fund Hildebrand is now I think she's 94 and she is one of the most brilliant women of God I have ever met and had the privilege to know and her husband was much older than her and so she's kind of carried on the work of dietrich von Hildebrand one of the leading Catholic thinkers of the 20th century brilliant Catholic philosopher and it just tickles me to death that you know somebody in Texas could be watching YouTube and be introduced to this incredible thinker and you know want to read her books and so that I feel like the Lord is using me you know in a wonderful way and every time I hear something like that it just it's very encouraging thank you oh yeah no I now know more about Narnia than I have knew before - anyways my question the question I had was you know we've talked a lot about how this is affected the world and how the Protestants have really I guess gained from this I guess my question is more along the lines of what do you think that the Catholics the Roman Catholics Oh - Luther what do they went what are they Oh - were they Oh - Luther yes oh my goodness very much actually I think that for one thing the counter-reformation which I won't go into but I mean the Catholic Church am I right about this at the end of the book that they have themselves over the centuries particularly in the last 60 years since Vatican 2 made dramatic reforms that Luther was speaking about and so I think that there is a there there there just is a lot in the Catholic Church today that to some extent is there because of this sawed-off maniac named Martin Luther I think it's undeniable and some people think of him as an enemy of the Catholic Church I actually don't I see both sides of it I'm a very I always say I'm a very pro Catholic non-catholic I really do see both sides of it but I think that to some extent he did ultimately force them to see some things which they they finally acknowledged they said yes this this is right so yeah thank you all right well we'll wrap up our evening tonight I was going to instruct you about the book sales out in the lobby they've sold out before the session began they had seven copies left so so good news bad news I suppose good news for you no that's bad news because I wanted to sell more you're right right okay I think it's bad it's bad news bad news every bear forever yeah yeah I live in New York City I gotta pay rent oh it's not easy it's not easy so please go online and please please if you don't read the book I don't care just buy a copy please Eric will be at watermark Church tomorrow night tomorrow night and they will have more books there they promised us yes I saw so he will be signing the books that you either brought with you or that you purchased before the event began he will be in out this door but you would be smart to go out this door and start forming that line for him to sign your books and that line will go down the hall and we will help guide you through that and I would like to thank pastor chuck for joining us this evening and making this five fun events thank you so much we have the gift and we have the gift for Dan we have a special gift for Eric a gift oh is it cigars oh because I don't smoke not but trick oh here it is here it is now this I'm scared what is very is very important gift you please observe the number it's a puppy Oh mom come on this is unbelievable this is on but it's an test whose idea was this your idea this is incredible this isn't crap hello hi I heard nothing oh my god oh my god great whoever is on your staff whoever thought of this is such a brilliant idea you've never grown how I look when I'm thinking of the Cowboys I'm thinking of like too tall Jones that's my era okay nobody left they're all younger but I gotta tell you that's to be 9595 of course of course of course that's brilliant yeah this is a prep I can't believe that this is brilliant this is absolutely this is unbelievable we got to get some photos this I am so grateful thank you this is so creative and if it isn't that great you know you you meant you mirror it is for that name you misspelled Texas look this is a blessing thank you Pastor swindoll a joy of my life so please please allow Eric to get to his place and you can talk to him as you go through the line thank you drop it in here [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Channel: Pastor Chuck Swindoll | Insight for Living

Views: 44,529

Rating: 4.8535872 out of 5

Keywords: Reformation, eric, metaxes, chuck, swindoll, pastor, martin, luther, interview, insight, for, living, teaching, Q&A, information, dialogue, book, life, of, martinluther, reformer, bible, Eric metaxes, Martin Luther, learn, about, who was Martin Luther, life of Martin Luther

Id: uDkt8CetVr8

Length: 92min 45sec (5565 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 31 2017