A Hobbit, a Wardrobe, and a Great War: J.R.R. Tolkein, C.S. Lewis, and World War I

good afternoon welcome to our Douglas and Sarah Allison auditorium for our special program today this program I've already decided to declare unique in that it has got to have the longest subtitle for a book that we have ever hosted a heritage for those of you who would like to get lost in it please feel free to read it before we start of course we welcome those who join us on our heritage dot-org website on all of these occasions would ask everyone here in house if you'll be so kind to check that cell phones have been silenced as we prepare to begin it's always appreciated and of course we will post the program on our home page for everyone's future reference following today's discussion opening our program is dr. Niall Gardner Niall serves as director of our Margaret Thatcher Centre for freedom he is a former aide to the first lady thatcher he also worked in the heart of Washington policy now for over a decade and as a leading expert on the special US UK relationship he is also a regular contributor to the London Daily Telegraph and appears frequently on American and British television and I assume you will explain to them why the Thatcher Center is discussing this book is that correct yes good please welcome Niall Gardiner Niall John thank you very much and everybody welcome to the Heritage Foundation and to the Margaret Thatcher Centre for freedom a century ago the First World War known then as the great war was just entering its second year the promise of an easy victory achieved in six weeks had already disappeared it had been ground into the mud and blood of Flanders field in Britain six million men mobilized for the conflict almost 1 million of them never returned home millions more were injured many with terrible wounds were shrapnel poison gas or suffering from shellshock the war touched all who fought in it including two of the men who did return home to England the author's j.r.r tolkien and CS Lewis as the second left tenant in the British Expeditionary Force Tolkien fought on the Western Front taking part in the Battle of the Somme one of the bloodiest battles in human history also commissioned as a second lieutenant Lewis fought in the trenches as well though the two authors did not meet until after the war in 1926 when they became instructors in English literature at Oxford and encourage each other to write the novels that would achieve such public acclaim for Tolkien The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings and for Lewis The Chronicles of Narnia as professor de Conti writes given the massive and enduring influence of their works it is hard to think of a more consequential friendship in the 20th century a friendship that emerged from the suffering and sorrow of a world war while Tolkien and Lewis saw on the battlefields of Europe shaped the worlds of middle-earth and Narnia these stores are not tales of medieval escapism or unrealistic heroism but a much more human story one of hope and recovery for the next generation it is an honor and a pleasure to use my great friend and former colleague Joe the Conte who is now an associate professor of history at King's College New York he previously served as a distinguished visiting professor at the School of Public Policy at Pepperdine University and from 1919 to 2006 Joe held the first chair in religion as the William II Simon fellow at the Heritage Foundation his previous books include God Locke and Liberty the struggle for lose freedom in the West and the end of illusions religious leaders confront Hitler's Gathering Storm Joe's latest book a hobbit a wardrobe and a Great War is powerful moving and written from the heart please welcome professor the content Thank You nyle for that really beautiful introduction and thank you all for coming today in such a beautiful day that's a testament to a token of Louis that you're inside and not outside today you know it's a it's great to come back to the edge foundation and my fondest time here really was working with people like nyle gardner and and and jen marshall and others nyle there are many qualities about you and your friendship that have been such a great gift to me and to come to mind I would say loyalty and I would say moral courage which makes all the other virtues possible so thank you friend thank you for this a great event well let's get into it the last soldier to die in the Great War was an American Henry Guenther a private with the American Expeditionary Force in France he was killed at 10:59 a.m. November 11th 1918 one minute before the Armistice went into effect he was 23 years old günther squad had encountered a roadblock of German machine guns near the village of Shama and delay and against the orders of his sergeant he charged the guns with his bayonet German soldiers aware of the Armistice tried to wave them off but Gunther kept coming he was gunned down and he died instantly his divisional record states almost as he fell the gunfire died away and an appalling silence prevailed while despite the parties and the parades marking the end of the First World War a brutal and appalling silence fell over much of the world it was the stillness of souls anguished and bewildered by the carnage of the most destructive war the world had ever seen historian paul johnson is called the conflict the primal tragedy of modern world civilization the main reason he says why the 20th century turned into such a disastrous epoch from mankind they called it the war to make the world safe for democracy the war to end all wars the war to usher in the kingdom of heaven instead the Great War laid waste to a continent and it destroyed the hopes and the lives generation before it was all over nearly every family in Europe was grieving the loss of a family member or helping others to grieve or caring for a wounded soldier trying to adjust to civilian life like no other force in history the First World War permanently damaged a mental outlook of European society it assured in a season of cynicism agnosticism toward the values and the ideals of the West for a generation of men and women it brought the end of innocence and it brought the end of faith and yet as Niall has suggested for two extraordinary authors and friends junior Tolkien and CS Lewis the Great War deepened their spiritual quest both men served as soldiers on the Western Front survived the trenches and used the experience of that conflict to shape their Christian imagination token of course creates the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings which is one of the most influential books of the 20th century Louis earns fame for The Chronicles of Narnia the series of children's books now ranked among the classics it could be argued that these epic tales involving what the sorrows and triumphs of war would never have been written if these men had not been flung into the furnace of combat listen to Winston Churchill battles are won by slaughter and maneuver he said the greater the general the more he contributes to maneuver and the less he demands in slaughter but the generals of this war demanded much in the slaughter by the time of the Armistice nearly ten million soldiers lay dead millions more wounded on average they're about 6046 men killed every day of the war every day for a war that lasted 1566 days Tolkien and Lewis might easily have been among their number second lieutenant in the British Expeditionary Force the BEF Tolkien spent many days and nights under fire on the western front he fought at the Battle of the Somme yes one of the fiercest concentrations of killing in the history of human con listen to Tolkien on this reflecting one has indeed personally to come under the shadow of war to feel full its oppression he said it now seems often forgotten that to be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous and experience than to be involved in 1939 and the years after then he goes on by 1918 all but one of my close friends were dead also commissioned as a second lieutenant in the BEF Lewis was sent immediately to the front arriving on his 19th birthday any nineteen year old they're just out of curiosity all right good for you all right well the experience of six months of trench warfare this vortex of suffering and death remained with Lewis throughout his life my memories of the last war he said haunted my dreams for years and like token he lost most of his closest of friends in the conflict so by the mid-1920s token and Lewis both arrived at Oxford they take up their vocations as instructors in English literature they meet for the first time in 1926 and this bond of friendship is established that is going to transform their lives and their careers I think we need to appreciate how out of step these authors were with their with their times both men think about both men write these epic tales awash in the themes of war sacrifice valor friendship they create these mythic worlds torn apart by a struggle between good and evil they use the backdrop of a global conflict as the crucible for moral and spiritual growth ladies and gentlemen these are not the kinds of stories that people are writing in the postwar years many veterans compose fiercely anti-war novels memoirs poetry a large cohort of educated men and women they become moral cynics they sneer the very idea of heroism or virtue in the years after the conflict the cruelty and the senselessness of the war of any war for any reason become the dominant motifs of a generation think of the works of Hemingway farewell to arms TS Eliot the Hollow Men Aric remark All Quiet on the Western Front they all reinforce these themes in the public mind the watchword is disillusionment disillusionment a fierce cynicism about liberal democracy about Christianity and about the achievements of Western civilization the shell-shocked veteran and there are thousands of them wandering around Europe many of them in insane asylums the shell-shocked veteran becomes a walking metaphor for much of post-war Europe the mood is acute among the writers and the artists and the public intellectuals but it also affects ordinary middle-class Europeans listen to Richard ovary in his book the twilight years dismay was a mainstream concern for the generation living after the end of the First World War the prospect of imminent crisis of a new Dark Age became a habitual way of looking at the world well trench fever took token out of the war he's demobilized from the British Expeditionary Force July 16th 1919 moves back to Oxford with his wife Edith and his infant son John he wins a professorship of anglo-saxon at Oxford 1925 pretty good for a guy that young but his early academic success though cannot ease the heartache of war Tolkien experiences in his own words a time of sorrow and mental suffering and the loss of so many friends to the war produces in the words of his children a lifelong sadness CS Louis went into the war is an atheist and he came out an atheist he was in fact an atheist in the foxhole he wrote a poem with these lines during the war years he said for all our hopes and endless ruin lie the good is dead let us cursed him God curse God and die that's Louis in 1917 1918 well he's wounded in combat April 1918 he's sent to a hospital bed in Bristol writes to his father I could sit down and cry over the whole business nearly all my friends in the battalion are gone Louis returns to Oxford in January 1919 to resume his studies in the classics a few years later he records in his diary he kept this copious diary while recording all the stuff going on in his early life over there which is a great resource for historians this conversation with a guy named the dock the dock was the uncle of a fellow soldier who himself was a war veteran this guy I think probably a shell-shocked war vet her in some ways well Louis and the doc go for an evening walk here's with Louis records in his journal I don't know how but we fell to talking of death and all the other horrors hanging over one the doc said it if you stop to think you couldn't endure this world for an hour I left him and walked home well from any post-war thinkers and writers they are unwilling to endure the world in its current form and a kind of spiritual vertigo takes hold a frantic search for solutions to the human predicament think about it Freudian psychology spiritualism scientism socialism these and other ideologies are attempts to solve or to explain away the horrors that seemed to be hanging over the human race and so by the 1920s these ideas are gaining ground rapidly in Europe and yes in the United States listen to historian motorist Eckstein's a profound sense of spiritual crisis was the hallmark of that decade talk about the 1920s it affected laborers landowners in dustless factory workers shop clerks and urban intellectuals so what's the point the point is these facts make the literary aims of Tolkien and Lewis all the more remarkable they reject they reject the moral agnosticism and the ambivalence that infects so much of the output of their era and yes critics accuse them of what nostalgia of medieval escapism right well yes these authors write their tales they wrap their tales in fantasy and myth but they do this in order to convey hard truths about the human condition its darkness its futility as well as its virtues and its achievements as Lewis explained and man as a whole man pitted against the universe have we seen him at all till we see that he's like a hero in a fairy tale token and Lewis are attracted to myth into romance not because they seek to escape the world but because for them the real world has a mythic and heroic quality it's the setting for great conflicts and great quests it creates scenes of remorseless violence and grief and suffering as well as deep compassion valor and sacrifice so let's try to unpack this vision friends a few points first token and Lois are utterly realistic about the corrupting influence of power utterly realistic about the corrupting influence of power the desire for power the desire to dominate others often disguised by appeals to religion or the morals is a recurring theme in their works virtually no character in their stories is immune to the temptation in Lewis's Prince Caspian Nikabrik initially a soldier in the fight for Narnia turns traitor when Aslan the great lion fails to come to their aid and so Nikabrik makes this appalling suggestion that his comrades enlists the help of the white witch you may drop Aslan out of the reckoning he says we want power and we want a power that will be on our side in tokens trilogy we learned that Saruman this wizard originally committed to helping middle-earth in the struggle against Mordor has fallen under the sway of the ring of power prudence he now argues demands a temporary compromise with Sauron the Dark Lord we can bide our time we can keep our thoughts in our hearts deploring maybe evils done by the way he says but approving the high and ultimate purpose is this Washington DC or what well here the effect of the Great War though is manifest isn't it despite an appeal to lofty moral principles none of the combatant nations resisted using the most horrific weapons available against the enemy the mortars the machine guns the tanks the poison gas starvation listen to church when it was all over torture and cannibalism were the only two expedience that the civilized scientific Christian states have been able to deny themselves he says and these were of doubtful utility vintage Churchill I know and remember the social aftermath of the war communism fascism Nazism eugenics these were the revolutions and the ideologies that arose in the exhaustion of the democracies of Europe all in the name of advancing the human race all began by promising liberation from oppression all became instruments of totalitarian control and token and Lewis are acutely aware of these ideologies and they react against them in their writings they have no illusions about the corrosive influence of unchecked power second token Lewis recovered the concept of heroism in an age of moral cynicism heroism in an age of moral cynicism the heroism in their stories is not defined by a single act of bravery the hero is the product of a well-formed character the hero emerges because of a series of choices to put the welfare of other people ahead of his or her own desires the industrialized slaughter of the First World War had damaged the very idea of choice of moral agency of freewill think about it millions of men have been flung into the ghastly machinery of a conflict that robbed them of their humanity they were mutilated bombed bayonetted gassed incinerated obliterated without mercy literary critic Roger sail has called the First World War quote the single event most responsible for shaping the modern idea that heroism is dead well the utter helplessness of the individual soldier on the Western Front is a recurring theme of post-war literature and the spirit of fatalism extends to society at large let me just give you some book titles coming out of that time the 20s and 30s now allow them on my shelf they're back in my house 1920 the end of the world 1921 social decay and d-generation 1926 the twilight of the white races 1927-28 the decline of the west by Spengler 1927 as well will civilization crash 1931 the problem of decadence and my personal favorite 1933 the dance of death how about that for a heritage lecture with Lakhani come the dance of death at noon free sandwiches you know I mean come on you get the point right token and Lewis reject this mental outlook though this fatalism they insist that every person is caught up in a great moral contest and that our choices in this contest matter and they matter supremely remember the scene in The Chronicles of Narnia the horse of his boy Shasta and Arabists helped by the talking horses race across the desert to warn narnia of the approaching army of rabadash well before reaching the goal they're attacked by a lion Erebus further behind his moments from being cut down by this beast and now Shasta has a choice stop bellow chest and breezier must go back must help she asta slipped his feet out of the stirrups slid both his legs over the left side hesitated for one hideous hundredth of a second and jumped it hurt horribly and nearly winded him but before he knew how it hurt him he was staggering back to hell paribus such scenes friends would be familiar to many combatants in the great war the image of the soldier throwing himself into harm's way to rescue a fallen comrade think of the scene in The Lord of the Rings when the hobbits encounter lady Galadriel the mightiest and fairest of all the elves in middle-earth as they gather before her she fixes her eyes on each of them and then she delivers that warning your quest stands upon the edge of a knife stray but a little and it will fail to the ruin of all well what are they to do each of them is faced with the appalling clarity of the choice laid before them to continue in the quest into certain danger and deprivation or take the safe and easy way turn back listen to Tolkien all of them had seemed it fair to like each had felt that he was offered a choice a choice between a shadow full of fear of what lay ahead and something he greatly desired clear before his mind at lay and to get it he had only to turn aside from the road and leave the quest and the war against Sauron to others well this bedrock belief in the responsibility to resist evil the responsibility to resist evil gives the writings of token and Lois their dignity and their power it's the reason their stories so fantastical and style seem to speak into our present reality the war against evil friends is the moral landscape of our mortal lives isn't it whatever form that evil takes in our world we are called to resist it by insisting on our responsibility to confront evil token and Lois retrieve this medieval concept of the heroic quest the heroic quest think Beowulf the death of Arthur and they reinvent it for the modern mind in an era that exalts cynicism and irony token and Lois seek to reclaim an older tradition of the epic hero now why why story ends were always asking the why questions why ignoring the most powerful trends of their culture why embark on this particular task well part of the answer and all we have is a partial answer part of the answer lies I think in the battlefields of France it was there as young soldiers that they encountered these virtues in the officers and the privates and the medics at the Western Front it was there according to token that the inspiration for his most beloved mythic character occurred where did token get his idea for the Hobbit in the first place after he became a professor at Oxford while he's sitting and grading student papers any teachers out there exact curiosity teaching background everybody loved great but no teachers out there look Connie the only one there's a teacher yeah teachers love grading papers right well talk it feels the same way about grading papers and he just beside himself finally he finds a blank sheet among all the papers and he Scrolls these words in a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit and a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit he doesn't even know why he wrote those words later on reflecting he says eventually I thought I'd better find out what hobbits were like well that's how the literary mind works isn't it we now know what all of us are like don't we from his own account the character of The Hobbit is a reflection of the ordinary English soldier steadfast in his duties while suffering in that dreary hole in the ground the frontline trench many members of the British Expeditionary Force were citizen soldiers drawn from the working classes even during the most intensive campaigns along the Western Front the British Army showed a remarkable resilience relative to other armies especially the Italians just had to say that sorry as an italian-american I can say that well look one of the most beloved heroic figures in modern literature is based on tokens first-hand knowledge of the virtues of the men in the trenches of the great war listen to token on this I have always been impressed that we are here surviving because of the indomitable courage of quite small people against impossible odds the hobbits were made small he explains to show up in creatures of very small physical power the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men at a pinch and then he goes on my Sam Gamgee is indeed a reflection of the English soldier of the privates that I knew in the 1914 war and recognized as so far superior to myself well the same could be said of any number of characters and Louis's stories for children often it's the homeless or the smallest maybe a mouse named Reepicheep who displays the greatest valor on the battlefield right as soldiers token and Lois lived among these quite small people witness their courage under fire joke with them mourn with them and watch them die as veterans of the most to war the world had ever seen they cannot glorify its violence and its anguish and they don't but neither can they accept the fatalism and the cynicism that's become so prevalent Wilfred Owen's raging anthem against war the shrill demented choirs of wailing shells it cannot be the final word for them so we have this concept of heroism reinvigorated and reinterpreted for modern mind third and becoming close to the end your friends third Tolkien and Lewis uphold the importance of friendship and our common struggle against evil for token and Lewis their personal knowledge of the Fellowship of men under fire this has to rank as another defining experience for their literary lives Louis first established friendships like these with his brother Warren II a soldier as well in the BEF whom he called his dearest and closest friend who understood the anxieties of combat and with a guy named Lawrence Johnson Lawrence Johnson who fought alongside him on the Western Front shared his love of literature and philosophy and reflecting years later token declared that Johnson he would have been a lifelong friend if he'd not been killed he was moving toward theism and we had endless arguments on that and every other topic whenever we were out of the line he catched that image the mortars stopped for a few moments token Lewis and Johnson just start arguing theology there in the trenches just like Lewis well look this theme of friendship it pulses through each of the Narnia stories if you think about it it's like a force of nature it might even be said that friendship replaces romance as the preeminent expression of love in Lewis's stories it flourishes among the children between the children and the noble Narnians and of course between Aslan and all who serve Him in love and obedience listen to Lewis reflecting I think on the experience of war to explain what distinguish the love among friends from all other earthly loves here's what he says one knows nobody so well as one's fellow every step of the common journey tests his mettle and the tests are tests we fully understand because were undergoing them ourselves you will not find the warrior he says or the poet or the philosopher or the Christian by staring into his eyes as if you were his mistress better to fight beside him read with him argue with him pray with him it's the same for Tolkien who's devoted to the inner circle of friends at the King Edward's school in Birmingham his band of brothers before the war in 1916 they had their own war meeting in London they called it the Council of London expecting to be sent into the theatres of war at any moment these young men and at that meeting they shared their deepest hopes and dreams for the future is it a coincidence that the concept of friendship amid the suffering of war is one of the great themes of the Lord of the Rings Frodo joined in his quest of course by his friends from the Shire Sam merry Pippin Aragorn Ranger from the north last the king of the elves Gimli from that line of dwarves and of course Gandalf the Grey the Fellowship the Fellowship of the Ring so when Frodo arrives at Creek Hollow before setting out into the old forest he's determined to leave on his own I'm of the scene he does not want to expose his companions to the perils that lie ahead and yet Merry and Pippin and Sam they get wise to his plans and they confront him before he can slip away they insist on coming with him Frodo protests but it does not seem that I can trust anyone Mary is unflappable it all depends on what you want you can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin to the bitter end and you can trust us to keep any secret of yours closer than you keep it yourself but you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone and go off without a word we're your friends Frodo we know a good deal about the ring we're horribly afraid but we're coming with you or we're following you like hounds do we have a few people in our lives like that who follow us pounds that's something worth thinking about the bond of friendship between Sam Gamgee and Frodo Baggins is one of the moral triumphs of the work isn't it remember when they're at the threshold of Mount Doom near the end of their quest they're weak from thirst and exhaustion they're nearly overwhelmed by the desolation of the landscape the lack of another living thing the black skies that noxious fumes the ash and the slag and the burn stone and the smell of death it's a scene not unlike what Tolkien experienced at the Battle of the Somme well they stagger toward their goal Frodo weakened by the great burden of carrying the ring begins to crawl on his hands listen to Tolkien Sam looked at him and wept in his heart but no tears came to his dry and stinging eyes I said I'd carry him if it broke my back he muttered and I will come mr. Frodo he cried I can't carry it for you but I can carry you and it as well so up you get come on mr. Frodo dear Sam we'll give you a ride just tell him where to go and he'll go I suspect ladies and gentlemen that only individuals who knew friendship of this kind who experienced it in the field of combat could write passages of such grit and courage and nobility well after the war token of Lois sought to recapture something like that intense comradeship that sustained them during the crisis years of 1914-1918 so at Oxford they launched the Inklings those who dabble in ink the group of friends and fellow scholars who meet weekly to read and discuss their work Tolkien helps Lois find a publisher for his first science fiction novel out of the silent planet 1938 most importantly though it's tokens conversation with CS Lewis on the night of September 19th 1931 they talked until 2:00 in the morning about the nature of myths and about Christianity as a true myth it was this conversation that Louis described as the immediate human cause of his conversion to Christianity well for his part Lewis becomes for token his great advocate for pursuing his Hobbit rate as they called it as token described that Lewis's gift was quote his sheer encouragement over many years to keep on listen to what Tolkien he CS Louis was for long my only audience only from him did I ever get the idea that my stuff could be more than a private hobby but for his interest and unceasing eagerness for more I should never have brought the Lord of the Rings to a conclusion Wow when Lewis earns learns that Lord of the Rings has been accepted for publication the manuscript he writes a letter to Tolkien describing his sheer pleasure of looking forward to having the book to read and to reread and then he reveals the importance of the book to both their lives I got a chill up my the back of my spine when I found this quotation and one of Lewis's journals I hadn't seen it anywhere else and any of the literature here's what he said to to Tolkien he said so much of your whole life so much of our joint life so much of the war so much that seemed to be slipping away into the past is now in a sort made permanent you catch what he's saying somehow in a way I don't understand in this trilogy Tolkien has captured something of the essence of their lives together through that war and in the years after so here's a glimpse of what friendship can look like when it reaches for a high purpose and is warded by the streams of sacrifice and loyalty and love all this I think is part of their achievement but I think they accomplished something else we cannot overstate how profoundly subversive and countercultural the works of Tolkien and Louis were in their day and here at the Heritage Foundation those words subversive and countercultural should have a certain resonance don't you think give me what you guys do and are trying to do well the soldiers of the First World War lived through endless days of mud stench slaughter and death nothing like it had ever occurred in history of the world it shook the foundations of civilized life listened to Churchill again all the horrors of all the ages were brought together and not only armies but whole populations were thrust into the midst of them TS Eliot saw the post-war world as a wasteland of human weariness I think we're in rats aly he wrote where the dead men lost their bones well after returning home from this war Tolkien and Lewis might easily have joined the ranks of the rootless and the disbelieving instead instead they faced the problem of war and suffering with realism but not with resignation for them there is no shortcut to the land of peace there's no primrose path to the mansions of the blessing first come tears and suffering in Mordor heartless violence it's stable Hill and yes are and death at Golgotha their stories insists that we live in a moral universe war is a symptom it's a symptom of the ruin and the wreckage of human life but it can inspire noble sacrifice for humane purposes war would sometimes be necessary necessary to preserve human freedom remember the words from Faramir captain of Gondor and the lord of the rings' war must be while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all he says but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness nor the arrow for its swiftness no the warrior for his glory I love only that which they defend these two giants of literature created mythic and heroic figures who nevertheless make a claim upon our ordinary concrete lives they challenge us to join with them in the struggle against the dark forces in this world and yes friends it is a desperate struggle it feels that way quite often and this leads us up to the most surprising element of their achievement in the world's created by token and Louis the struggle against evil is possible only because there is a source of grace and goodness outside of ourselves a source of grace and goodness outside of us for all the accusations of medieval escapism token and Lewis come closer to capturing the tragedy of the human condition I think than any postmodern cynic by the end of the quests think about this by the end of the quest Frodo the ring bearer has given up the thought of ultimate success or even survival hope fails and in comes he tells Sam we have only a little I'm too late now were lost in ruin and downfall and there's no escape at the climax of his journey at the fires of Mount Doom despite all of his courage and strength Frodo fails in his quest he fails he chooses not to destroy the ring but instead succumbs to its power and places at once again on his finger I do not choose now to do what I came to do the ring is mine token explained that seen in this way but one must face the fact he said the power of evil in the world is not final irresistible by incarnate creatures however good they may be here is where token and Lois depart most radically from the spirit of the age our modern tales virtue and heroism the gallery of superheroes super cups super spies super vampires wherever they are we got a protagonist who invariably saves the day by his or her natural intelligence strength of will good looks usually lots of firepower at hand just to make sure right well second-amendment here at the Heritage Foundation I believe in the Second Amendment just being clear about that all right I just relax out digging a little nervous back that I could say something other guys twitching back there to back row okay lock and load there baby alright well look the moral vision in the works of Tolkien and Lewis is fundamentally different though isn't it the hero cannot cannot by his own efforts prevail in this struggle against evil the forces arrayed against him as well as the weakness within him make victory impossible the tragic nature of his quest begins to dawn on him to oppress him until the moment when a final failure seems inevitable the mythic dimension of their story their stories now reaches the zenith like the best fairy tales they provide the what the consolation of the happy ending the sudden joyous turn toward rescue and redemption it's the reversal of a catastrophe what Tolkien calls the you catastrophe the you catastrophe a decisive act of grace which promises to overcome our guilt restore what's been lost and set things right Frodo's defeat which is really our defeat isn't it is overturned by a power stronger than our weakness token identifies this power quote as that one ever-present person capital P who was never absent and never named and so it is the Golem driven by his lust to dominate bites off Frodo's finger that bears the ring only to slip into plunge to his death into the fire so the ring is destroyed not by Frodo not by the fellowship but by a sudden and miraculous grace in Lewis's children's stories the crowning moment of grace occurs in the last battle as King Tyrion and the children and a faithful remnant of Narnians fight their way to the entrance of the stable the last battle of the last king of Narnia spoiler alert you haven't read the end ok gonna give you the end hang in there we are led to believe that inside the stable is certain death the stronghold of an all-powerful evil I feel in my bones says boggin that we shall all one by one pass through that dark door before morning I can think of a hundred deaths I would rather have died and as the company is forced inside its doors all hope seems lost and here again comes the joyous turn the great lion has invaded the stable cast out the demon Tash and turned the stable into a portal to Aslan's country the children watch as Narnia is destroyed in a new world nearly more beautiful than their hearts can bear is called into being all the old Narnia that mattered all the dear creatures have been drawn into the real Narnia through the door Lois writes the character of Lucy Lucy captures the simple yet powerful symbolism of the stable doesn't she in the Gospel accounts it's the birthplace of the Messiah right the Lion of the tribe of Judah of Jesus in Bethlehem listened to Lucy in our world - she says a stable once had something inside it that was bigger than our whole world so these epic tales of rescue and sacrifice they're strangely familiar to us aren't they because we've heard them or rumors of before well for these two giants of literature there is only one truth one singular event that can end the long war against evil undo the tragedy of the human condition and bring lasting peace The Return of the King in Narnia the king is Aslan of course the great lion only aztlán knows that way to the blessed realm that lies beyond the sea the light ahead was growing stronger right slowest in the last battle Lucy saw that a great series of many colored cliffs led up in front of them like a giant staircase and then she forgot everything else because Aslan himself was coming leaping down from cliff to cliff like a living carrot cataract of power and beauty this King comes in power and beauty as the voice of conscience and the source of consolation as the lion and the lamb here is the union of tenderness and severity as Lois put it of terror and comfort intertwined in token story this king is Aragorn the chief epic hero of The Lord of the Rings heir to the kingship of Gondor his life is devoted to the war against Iran and yet his true stature is made known only after saurons defeat when he finally assumes his throne listen to token but when Aragorn arose all that beheld him gazed in silence for it seemed to them that he was revealed to them now for the first time tall as the sea kings of old he stood above all that were near Ancient of Days he seemed and yet in the flower of manhood and wisdom set upon his brow and strengthened healing were in his hands and a light was about him and then Faramir cried behold the king well here's a vision of human life that is at once terrifying and sublime here is a world our world in which every soul is caught up in an epic struggle against evil a story of sacrifice and courage and clashing armies this is the day when every heart be laid there the day when we will know we will know with inexpressible joy or unspeakable sorrow whether we have chosen light or darkness it is in these Imagi t'v works of fiction these mythic tales of heroism sacrifice and redemption that we find a clue to the meaning of our earthly journey is everything sad going to come untrue ask Sam for the creators of Narnia and middle-earth this is the deepest source of hope for the human story the belief that God and goodness are the ultimate realities that the shadow of sin and suffering will finally and forever be lifted from our lives the great war will be won and this king who brings strength and healing in his hands will make everything sad come on true thank you for listening so thank you for a tremendous talk really powerful inspiring and well there's so many spoilers in the talk John that I've already seen all six of the Lord of the Rings Hobbit films and gave away the ending there and hopefully look forward to the the film based on the book you have to have I think Benedict Cumberbatch's Tolkien and perhaps Eddie Redmayne as CS Lewis directed by Peter Jackson so looking forward to that okay and Joanne opening question for you and I hope this book is it's going to be read by people in the White House and Downing Street are our leaders today but what is your central message to today's leaders based upon this book based upon your your tremendous knowledge of the the lives are Tolkien and Lewis what is the the the core message that you would want to give to the leaders of the free world today coming and we got people in the audience I know who know flies were talking to Lewis better than I do this is the hazard of taking on this book I'm an historian but I'm not an expert in the First World War I'm running about talking to Louis but I'm not next I'm talking to Louis I'm in dangerous territory I'll Akane out of my depth as usual but terrific question I think this theme I keep playing back to with these with these two men is this is that evil is a real force in the world it exists in us and it exists as it as an actual force outside of us and it has to be resistant that's the key aspect it seems for me that there is a duty to resist even in the face of the most overwhelming odds and there's a line I can find it quickly I think it's this conversation that Aragorn has let me see if I can find it yes here it is Aragorn and ile Elin and Lady when she comes after man calls him he turns he sees her he sees her as a glimmer of light for she was clad in white but her eyes were on fire Aragorn she said why will you go on this deadly road because I must he said because I must only so I can see any hope of doing my part in the war against Sauron I do not choose paths of peril yoen or Ida go where my heart dwells far in the north I would now be wandering in the fair valley of Rivendell don't we all want to be in Rivendell all right so it does it doesn't any nation just want to be in Rivendell but that's just not the world we live in there's there's a more there are mortars out there bent on the destruction of civilizations of societies of people groups that's just I teach the history of the West at King's College in New York and this is one of the facts about human civilization it was John Keegan who said the history of the West is almost the history of war almost the history of the West is almost the history of warfare so evil is a real force in the world but our responsibility to resist is part of it makes us human and if we surrender that we become something less than human I think there'll be one broad message I would love to see Queen and say Joseph class at King's College in New York is is probably the most popular class at their Kings it'sit's you have a very very loyal band prima donnas in the morning that's why you had the the privilege of guest speaking to to your classes I'd like to invite a few questions from the from the audience please who identify yourself at any affiliation that you might have and the gentleman here in the front had his hand up first thing when today we are evaluating whether to be involved in a conflict as a nation we so often look to historical examples and often people either fall into comparing current things to either the Second World War or the First World War you know if it's the second hey we need to get in there and in the first you know when you stay out right because they made opposite errors in the Second World War they waited too long in the first they equated people that you know were opposed with with evil when perhaps they were just you know didn't nations the different views of things so how would you say today how do we do whether something is more like the situation the first world war or the second well that's a terrific question this is one of the great hazards of being an historian we especially for myself who start out in political journalism I'm constantly wanting to make historical parallels but that's a hazardous thing to do because history doesn't ever exactly repeat itself not every diplomatic compromise or negotiation is Munich 1938 and but not every American intervention is Vietnam so every situation is unique and so what does it take it takes prudence and wisdom doesn't it whether this lost virtue of the Greeks in the Romans some some measure of prudence and wisdom and experience in I think governing experience in wartime how do you make those decisions I think has been careful about drawing historical parallels however having said that now in the other side human nature hasn't changed right human nature hasn't changed so we know that if we have a regime that is pretty much close to being a thoroughly corrupted regime bent on some on aggrandizement on conquest whatever it is human nature is such that they will thrive on Democratic weakness they will look for Democratic weakness they will try to fill a vacuum of power back and we know that from history because that is a constant in human nature wickedness outright wickedness which we can see in the world in different places and I and the growth of Isis is a great example of this it is moving where it senses weakness and so whatever that means as a response I don't know but human nature has not changed so getting that as a pattern in history yes evil will flourish where there is not a force to resist that that's just a constant that's gonna happen so that should give us some some general guidance to how to think about international phaidor's I think and it's one of the huge lessons here and in Lord of the Rings and in the climate of Narnia isn't think about the ents who try to remain neutral up until the last moment as the battle is raging right the last battle of the edge they just want to be like Switzerland stay out of the battle but in the end of the day they gotta get pulled in the last march of the answer that's very deliberate on Tolkien sparked at one level or another sooner or later you can have to choose sides in the battle sooner or later partial answer great question Milton Grenfell the morale seat change that you chronicled you know after World War one due to over one I'm reminded of the American aviator Billy Mitchell apparently during war one recommended strategic bombing we've never been done before you know bomb a munitions factories and and railroad lines supplying the front to shorten the war the High Command reject out of hands it might kill civilians well we're to the whole point of bombing was to kill civilians tens of thousands and what happened I mean you know obviously we let something out of the box after war one and has it ever gone back has Western civilization ever regained its moral Center are we are we still living in this kind of will bomb any body in any place for anything reason well it's a terrific question I mean again a partial answer that you could make the case it seems to me that after the devastation of the Second World War but both the terms of the civilian bombings right the fire bombers and Dresden and all the rest of it and of course the Holocaust there was a coming together as an international community you could make the make an argument that there was a kind of quickening of the conscience didn't last very long but a quickening of the international conscience to say wait a minute we need some kind of international document of international bill of rights an international body that's going to be something like and something better than the League of Nations that came before so they actually hammered out a Universal Declaration of Human Rights to affirm human dignity in this Universal you know cross-cultural way and virtually every country then in existence signed on hood and that came out of it seems to me the deep sense of regret and what had happened in that war both yes the Holocaust but I think also the torture and all the rest of it that went on across the sides of course the the Front's so I think there was that moment of recognition we built institutions to try to prevent this very thing from happening again never again never again we create these international institutions the United States in the lead and great to try to prevent the thing we can have a debate about how successful has been but that was it seems to me a real post-war moment of moral clarity as much as we've had in the twentieth century seems to me actually 1947-48 moral clarity Adam Brickley I work here at Heritage I find it interesting we're having this debate strangely enough at a time when we probably have the most popular high fantasy series of novels since Tolkien that being George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire / Game of Thrones Syria and the reason I bring that up is because Martin is a fan of poke and then a student of Tolkien and very volcanion in his technique but at the same time was himself formed by the Vietnam War yeah and has said Frank is that a big theme in his works is that all violence is capricious and meaningless there's no such thing as heroism death occurs randomly well all the characters are consumed by Vice and so I wondered I don't know if you could talk about how these two people who do essentially the same thing have come to Tolkien and Martin am too deeply different conclusions about the nature of war and life yeah fabulous question fabulous question that's where it seems much of the the literary set is on this question about war that's all for nothing there's no there's no such thing as a just war for Humane purposes that certainly was the mood in the 1920s the mood of pacifism isolationism it just sets and it sets up the rise of Hitler and in Germany we sold me down that road before we've been down that road of pacifism and Lewis and Tolkien both reject ultimately reject pacifism they they grieve what happened the First World War touken has two sons serving in the Second World War pilots and elsewhere serving in the Second World War and he's pretty darn proud of his sons and what they're trying to accomplish I think at the end of the day without being too pious about it I think at the end of the day they're religious Christian sensibility is what keeps them from becoming cynics because I think the view you've just described and not your view but the view of these authors is moral cynicism which i think is a vice to say that there's there's nothing good or decent about a war about any war any time it's just it doesn't conform to reality because if we if that view will always allow wickedness to have its full sway and it will increase the level of human suffering that decrease it the pacifist route so that cynicism it seems to me is something toking the Lewis could avoid because at the end of the day they would say and they do say in their writings death in war is not the worst thing it's not the worst thing there are worse things than dying in war and slavery one of those worse things read The Chronicles of Narnia carefully again for you guys and pick up the CMAs of slavery and also in front and tokens works the idea of being enslaved and the fight against slavery the slavery of the Spirit the slavery of the body those are themes in both their works so and and it seems to me they're coming to conclusion that that is a worse fate than dying in battle I mean resisting that will to dominate resisting slavery this is a thing that's worth doing worth fighting and dying for because if I think this eternal perspective a transcendent perspective on life if you don't have it then yeah I think you're most likely gonna go the route of the pacifist if you don't have a transcended perspective on life Bruce got three one thing in a response to the step back from the edge it is remarkable that Hitler never used poison gas during World War two I had always been told that that was because Hitler himself had been hit with poison gas in World War one and said no we're not doing this obviously Saddam had not experienced that well yes of course you know right but different not of the battlefield my question though this book do you use these books do you suppose either Louis or Tolkien could have written this if they had been on the losing side that's a fascinating question if they've been on the losing side of the war yes I think they could have written in that way because in a sense even though a Brit was on the winning side after a decade a so as as Britain and Europeans are interpreting that war they felt like everybody lost who were the clear winners right Germany is yeah in its box but barely in its box Francis lost the third of its manhood and feels completely threatened by Germany Britain is economically in the dumps the great weirdness of course in the United States we come in last suffer the least and come out the strongest and we become a creditor nation everybody else's money after the end of the First World War so the Europeans felt like they were all losers in this war at some level the Brits maybe not as much as other European countries to be sure I can't know that it's one of those great what-if questions I don't my hunches they would be able to do that because of the way they processed this war what they had seen I think this goes back to the soldiers that Tolkien and Louis fought alongside the ordinary British soldier showed an incredible resilience those are those British armies for the most part didn't break there was no mutiny there wasn't this revolt against the commander's with the French army just collapsed the Russian army collapses you have it even in the German army but not the Brits there is this resilience and devotion to duty devotion to king and country now we could criticize that but for token especially I think as well for Louis that impressed them that these men were willing to stand their ground and they could see the difference that that made in battles and at the end of the day really I think they interpreted the war as well it was not for nothing we prevented a German aggressive imperialistic juggernaut from dominating the continent of Europe at least for a time and that was certainly the ambition of the Germans and the Brits had an interest in doing that in in preventing the domination of that empire on continental Europe so long-winded answer again but so I think they'd still be able to say but I can't go but sure I think that was more a great question question every excuse me Kent by our court if being enslaved is is worse than died in war what does that make the people who enslave others like Washington Jefferson Madison well it's a terrific moral question I mean this is where I think the Christian realism of Tolkien and Lewis really comes into play because I think you can react to that in a couple of ways the moral ambiguity of the founders you know the original sin at the founding slavery token and and then Louis are both well aware of the in justices in their own society British imperialism but I think they avoid I think they avoid two vices the one vice is a kind of utopian ISM and I hope the holy warrior mindset they don't go into the war as holy war is some men do and if the German is the great Saint you know the hon is is the beast in Berlin they don't have that mindset they're not these utopian holy warriors trying to usher in the kingdom of heaven but on the other side they're not cynics about what they're fighting for they're not cynics about the achievements of British civilization with all of its flaws so I think their ability their capacity to navigate between these two extremes between cynicism and utopianism I think it says it is a that's a Christian virtue it's not just a Christian virtue but it certainly is a Christian virtue there other ways you didn't have that virtue but I think it's essential to hang on to that perspective as we encounter nation's leaders civilizations that are always a mix of the good the bad and the ugly I start out my question sub-class usually and kings showing the clip from that great spaghetti western the good the bad and the ugly Clint Eastwood and I let my students know this is what we're gonna see the good and the bad and the ugly lots of it all of it with our eyes open so great question but that'll be my eye off the top of the head answer actually just a final question for you much of your book is set at Oxford of course all back members of my own my own days and also visit a student or Oriel College on the on the walls of the dining hall of plaques with a long list of names of Oriole graduates who gave their lives and the Great War and that continues to inspire future generations of Oxford students how important was the the role of Oxford University in shaping the thinking of I think about 29 prime ministers has a has a huge role in shaping British leadership in society yeah could you speak a bit more about the role of Oxford University itself and you mean in their days and as their as professors at Oxford yes and the the environment of their in that's a great questions right it's it's an area that I frankly need to go deeper into because every every Academy every academic institution has a culture to it or subcultures to it and certainly the move the intellectual mood in the 1920s and 30s it's becoming so hostile to these traditional ideas of religion and morality I don't know if I can find it quickly there's a there's a line here this is from london's london's bloom berry set which was really reflected I think at Oxford how these guys some of these yeah here it is how these guys thought about Christian faith in particular in the Academy and in the literary set and this is Virginia Woolf now she's shocked and appalled that TS Eliot who you know writes the wasteland in the 1920s he comes to Christian faith by the 1930s and here's what she says writing to other friends in the in that literary set which I really think reflect the whole Oxford scene I've had a most shameful and distressing interview with dear Tom Eliot who may be called dead to us all from this day forward well some of the time thing that he's dead to us he's become an Anglo Catholic believer in God and immortality and goes to church I was shocked a corpse would seem to be more credible than he is I mean there's something obscene in a living person sitting by the fire and believing in God wow that's in the nineteen 1930s and that whole Oxford set so I think that's what they're up against and I think it helps us to appreciate their achievement even greater they're going against the time they're going against the grain of the universe over there at Oxford in so many ways yeah which is impressive you know Jay thank you very much for a wonderful talk today we learned a great deal from it and truly inspiring in many many ways you were truly as Margret Thatcher would say one of us you

Channel: The Heritage Foundation

Views: 7,720

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Keywords: J. R. R. Tolkien (Author), Tolkein, C.S. Lewis, The Hobbit (Book), The Lord Of The Rings (Book), World War I (Military Conflict), Great War, Britain, United Kingdom (Country), Joseph Loconte, The Chronicles Of Narnia (Literary Series), Narnia, The Lion The Witch And The Wardrobe (Book), Literature

Id: DEdYdOu2cic

Length: 65min 2sec (3902 seconds)

Published: Fri Sep 18 2015