A Conversation with the 2022 Nobel Peace Prize Laureates From Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia

questions good morning and welcome to everybody who's here with us in person and joining us online it is a pleasure to have you here at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace my name is Dan bear I'm the senior vice president for policy research here and uh today's event is a special one on many levels first of all it represents a partnership between Carnegie uh the National Endowment for democracy and equality and I'd like to thank my good friend Damon Wilson and his team for all the work that they put in as well as Dimitri vitalev for all the work that equality put into making this event possible today this event is also important to me personally I served as a US Diplomat for eight years during the Obama Administration first as a deputy assistant secretary for human rights and then as U.S ambassador to the osce and during the course of that service got to interact with all three of the organizations that are represented here today one in particular that I'd like to single out is the organization that Alexandra leads which is the center for civil liberties in Ukraine I got to see Alexandra last summer in Kiev but I feel a special Pride because in the wake of Boris nimsov's killing a group of colleagues in Vienna decided to get together and create a human rights prize a democracy Defender prize eight years ago now and we looked across the OSU region to find somebody who was worthy of this prize somebody who was young and gave us hope for the future and we selected Alexandra for that prize eight years ago and I feel like I was a little bit ahead of the curve then you know if you didn't even know about committees that I went ahead just closed by saying we're really grateful also to have Bianna goal Rodriguez with us here today A good friend and thank you for for your service and joining us in this conversation and leading it Damon over to you Ambassador Dan thank you so much first of all it's great to be here with someone who was such a champion and advocate for democracy and human rights and thank you for the partnership today and thank you to Dimitri who's with us uh uh of equality who helped make this whole Gathering happen so Alexander matvachuk Alice billietsky Through Constantine star dubitz and Alexander turkasov they're all embroiled in a conflict with the Russian government and Vladimir Putin as chief antagonists their work is bound together by shared values of dignity and their shared purpose in seeking accountability for those who violate basic human rights and together they demonstrate the Civil Society in these three countries share a vision for peace and democracy in the region together they make a compelling case that a durable just peace is Possible only by ending the cycle of impunity that has empowered Putin and Alexander lukashinka through their moral Vision their dedication their courage they demonstrate the power of civil society that lies at the heart of the mission of the National Endowment for democracy and they demonstrate the extraordinary power of working together in solidarity this war in the heart of Europe a Savage and brutal war that Ukraine's fighting for all of us for our values for our lives as a war of gruesome atrocities and documenting and investigating those crimes takes an army of Brave human rights Defenders prosecutors investigators working closely with each other in common cause across borders and when the Russian war on Ukraine escalated into a full-scale invasion in February 24 last year Ukrainian Civil Society all of our partners they didn't ask to help Evacuate the country they asked for support and continuing to carry out their important work and hardly a month after the invasion Alessia Alexander matvachuk she joined our board meeting at the endowment you'll remember this she joined by video and she had to join from a shelter in Kiev during a rocket attack and she said that she didn't know how long she would be able to live there was much uncertainty at the time in the war but she said that she had no choice but to remain in Kiev to document human rights violations it's because of people like Alexandra that Ukraine will win Russia's Imperial war against Ukraine is the most terrible manifestation of its own lack of freedom and Colonial Ambitions Russia's ability to wage the war is enabled by its repression against its own civil society and continuing impunity at home and it's the crimes of the Stalin era the crimes of the Stalin era are tied to the exaltation of the state and its interest over the dignity the rights of the individual it's the impunity of the Soviet and then Russian governments that have been have enjoyed is direct that the impunity that they've enjoyed it's directly linked to the rights violations that we see today including those against Civil Society inside Russia and the war crimes in chechnya and now in Ukraine the tactics of violent repression developed inside the Soviet Union Russian are being applied today across Belarus and Ukraine and so despite the liquidation of Memorial by the Russian government Memorial's wide network of organizations experts and activists continues to work across borders to pursue Justice and accountability in Russia Alexander turkasov the chair will share more about this work we all have come to learn that autocrats and dictators collaborate they work together help each other autocracy Inc they learn from each other and this makes the cross-border collaboration for human rights Defenders even more important they are fighting the same enemy and today in Belarus it's in the grip of not one but two dictators fundamental rights and human dignity are not in their vocabulary but they are in the DNA of the citizens of Belarus a pillar of the human rights movement Eastern Europe Alice billiatsky founded the asna center in 1996 and he made it its life's goal to protect and assist and defend victims of repression under Alice's stewardship viazna has helped thousands of beleaguered belarusians receive legal and humanitarian support and he's illuminated the true face of the brutal lukashinka regime because of his unrelenting advocacy on behalf of the vulnerable beliesky is now serving a lengthy politically motivated jail term along with five of his colleagues and it's a true measure of a dictator's cowardice when the best and brightest are imprisoned in their Homeland while the world celebrates their values so we stand by Alice viazna and all the champions of human dignity who continue to do their work Constantine star dubitz will share more of this with us today so as Alexander has often said human rights Defenders shouldn't be seen or become historians and archivists the expectations of the citizens of the Free World in this Terror and and the Free World is it the terrible stories of hundreds of innocent victims including children hundreds of thousands will not just be documented but also lead to the delivery of Justice in their lifetime and so our solidarity is with them and so is our support and the Nobel committee's choice of these three laureates made an important statement about a peaceful future in the region the violence Unleashed against Ukraine by Putin and Lika Luka shinka regimes has done much to destroy the bonds among these three countries and yet Ukraine's victory which would be necessary for lasting peace in the region but not sufficient because true security comes when these bonds come together with profound political and social change in Russia and Belarus so it's fitting therefore that the Peace Prize in 2002 a year marked some of the worst horrors of the war was awarded to these three recipients who have done so much to work towards that change and who embody the values of Justice without which there can be no peace because of their work Ukraine will safeguard its freedom because of their work one day Russia and Belarus will be free so I'm going to turn the stage over to Bianna golodrigo we're delighted to have Biana with us the senior Global Affairs and that Analyst at CNN she's also a native of Moldova who brings a particular perspective to this as moldova's fight to be part of the Free World as part of this larger story we're honored to have you all here please come to the stage thank you well hello everyone it's great to see you all in person and what an honor it is to be here today uh momentous opportunity for all of us to get to hear from these real heroes and uh people who have fought so valiantly for democracy and human rights and this is the first time that all three have appeared together on stage since winning the Nobel Peace Prize so we are all fortunate to hear from them to see them to see them talking to one another and sitting here together I'm going to open it up for each of you to give us your thoughts on the significance of this moment and why it's important for you to be here together after they all speak then we'll open it up for a conversation for the panel and then we'll have audience questions after that so that's going to be the Run of show and I do want to start with Alexander if you can talk about what this means for you today how your life has changed in many ways since receiving this prize your battle continues and yet you choose to be here today thank you very much for providing me a floor it's a huge honor for me to be able to address to this distinguished audience I am a human rights lawyer and I work directly with people affected by this war and I know that in different sharp discussions about Russian war against Ukraine we very often lost the human Dimension so let's bring it back this war started not in February 2022 but in February 2014 when people in Ukraine obtained a chance for the quick democratic transition of our country After the revolution of dignity and in order to stop us on this way Putin started this war of aggression nine years ago occupied Crimea part of lugansk and Daniel's regions and last year extended this war to the large-scale innovation because Putin is not afraid of NATO Putin is afraid of the idea of freedom and that is why it's not just a war between two states Russia and Ukraine this is a war between two systems authoritarianism and democracy and Putin attempts to convince the whole world with this word that democracy rule of law and human rights are fake values because they couldn't protect you during the war and the main question which I want to ask in this audience is how we people who live in 21 century will protect a human beings their lives their freedoms and their dignity can we rely on the law or just nuclear weapons matter the answer to this question will Define our common future because if it will not be able to restore International order in the nearest Future we can find ourselves in the world we're not just Russia but other states with a strong military potential and nuclear weapons will dictate their rules of the game to entire International Community and even possibly changed International recognized borders in such kind of the world it will be dangerous to live for anyone without any exceptions all these atrocities which we now documented it's a result of total impunity which Russia enjoyed for decades because Russia used the same War crime playbook in chichna in Moldova in Georgia in Mali in Syria in Libya in other countries of the world and they have never been punished Russians believe they can do whatever they want and that is why now I document how quickly this world turned people into the numbers because the scale of our crimes grows so loud that it's become impossible to recognize all the stories but I will tell you one this is a story of 14 year old girl Sophia from Marion she her mother her younger sister and small brothers were hiding in basement one day they the family was warmed by Russian aircrafts and now I quote Sophia I went to dig out my mother I tried to do it with my hands because there were no shovels nearby some aircrafts were flying around me I was also scared that moment and I wanted to help my mom I duck you up so she could breathe and then I went to ask for help her small brother died immediately your mother was died after several hours when she was tucked out from the rebels of the residential buildings what I want to say was this story people are not numbers we must return people their names and only Justice can do it that is why we must break the circle of impunity we must establish special tribunal and hold Putin lukashanka the top political leadership and high military command of Russian State accountable because the life of each person matters and I want to conclude that when large-scale Innovation started the Civilized World told Let's Help Ukraine not to fail and Ukraine obtained a first weapons to be able to defend ourselves and first sanctions against Russia were introduced into the force and we are extremely grateful for all support which we received from the people from United States of America and other countries in this dramatic time of our history but it's time to change this narrative to another one Let's Help Ukraine to win fast because there is a huge differences between Let's Help Ukraine not to fail and let's help Ukraine to win fast and we can practically measure this difference in types of weapons in gravity of sanctions and speed of decisions and one important point when we say that Ukraine has to win it means that Russia has to lose and we don't have not to be afraid of this fact because the history of humankind convincingly proved that Soviet Union was collapsed regardless whether or not we were ready for this it happened and Russia will lose it's inevitable so it's better to be prepared for such situation and help Ukraine to win fast because Putin will stop only when he will be stopped if we can't stop putting in Ukraine he will go further so let's stop Putin it's better to do because it's the right thing to do thank you [Applause] thank you Alexandra Constantine let's talk about Belarus because your organization biasana reports that as of Tuesday there are 1482 persons in Belarus considered political prisoners among them we know is Alice bialyetsky you're wearing him not on your sleeve but on your heart here representing him we'll talk about his fight in your fight in a moment but first a few thoughts from you as to why this is an important occasion for you to be speaking to this audience and among this panel thank you uh right I'm I'm here to represent Alice belowsky who's among nearly 1500 political prisoners in Belarus I'm very proud to be here to to speak on his behalf uh is in prison today and he cannot travel obvious reasons after the perusian regime gave him the loan 10 years following the Sham trial on trumped up charges um we do not have many chances to communicate with Alice while he is in prison but from the a few letters that he received that he sends to his wife Natalia pinchuk who received the awards in Oslo and on his behalf we know that uh he still adheres to the important principles of human rights that uh defined his activism Alice is uh is a living legend of the Buddhism Civil Society he is a role model for many me included he has so many faces he is a literally critic he is better in opposition activist um uh sorry yeah uh we believe that the long sentence that he received the 10 years he is about to serve uh is the governor's revenge for his principal position for the role that he played in for the many years of arranging the important assistance to the victims of of the regime specifically following the protest that uh happened nearly three years ago today while in prison he suffers uh immense pressure we hope to see him released as soon as possible alive and in good health meanwhile I'm here to raise his case to to to to stress that his case is unique and special and that Elizabeth should be released as soon as possible and people around the world and in the United States should know about it about this prominent human rights Defender I would also like to share a few messages that I have from from alas below the first one is that the future of Belarus heavily relies on what is happening in Ukraine and we believe and he believes in the human rights Defenders of Belarus belief that the um that Russia's aggressive imperialism can only only be stopped by helping Ukraine to win and this in in turn will help belarusa be free and solve too many very urgent issues including setting Elizabeth free uh this is uh our belief in three years ago during the process that uh happened in the cross Belarus uh person people chose freedom uh and this will of the people was suppressed and has been suppressed over these three years with unprecedented brutal repression which has affected directly affected thousands and indirectly Millions um the Civil Society of Belarus as we knew it was demolished forcing hundreds of activists abroad into Exile including me and my colleagues however we still continue our work in the meantime as we are always in for Ukraine's victory in its war against Russia the Civil Society of Belarus is in need of ongoing support uh this support is needed so that we can provide the uh very important services to the victims of of repression in Belarus uh who are in even greater need of support today and uh in the months to come I would like to stress that uh one of the dangerous biofects of lukashenkas being involved in Russia's aggression against Ukraine is that today uh we can we have uh nuclear weapons in in Belarus and we can see the the Wagner group mercenaries being stationed in Belarus this is a threat to not only to the to Belarus but uh to both Regional and Global Security belarusians are the majority of belarusians are against Belarus direct involvement in the war um this is uh one of the reasons why tourism troops has not have not been yet ordered to cross the border to attack uh to attack Ukraine it is also partially because the Russians are alien to Imperial sentiments most of them the final message which I want to share with this audience and those who joined us online is that there should be no contacts with the lukashenko regime unless the three important preconditions are observed that's ending repression releasing the political prisoners and and in support in Russia's aggression against Ukraine thank you [Applause] you mentioned you mentioned Wagner troops now being stationed in Belarus it was just this week where lukashenko cavalierly said that they were eager to cross the border and to go into Poland as well and that gives you a sense of the the dangerous situation that continues to even become more exacerbated right now and we should also note that Alice this is his second unjust prison sentence he also served time in 2011 to 2014. let me turn to Memorial and Alexander and let me ask you to weigh in and Alexander will be speaking through an interpreter as you see Memorial was founded in 1989 which was then the Soviet Union and its aim was to remember millions of innocent people persecuted by Soviet repression specifically the atrocities committed under Stalin it was liquidated ahead of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine so it must be Bittersweet to receive the Nobel Peace Prize having had the company that you've spent so much time working for and with liquidated by your own government can you give us your thoughts and opening statements here as to why this is important for you to be here today in speaking to this audience it's possible [Music] um foreign human rights Memorial can you hear can you hear me now yes wonderful so yes indeed uh the human rights center Memorial was closed down and I'm the director of a closed down Center however our mission continues my colleagues continue to work in this area [Music] our mission we thought was to prevent the repetition of the crimes that were committed in the 20th century and we failed miserably oh no uh commission is our work is not over my colleagues continue to render human rights assistance they continue to collect and publish Vital Information however our Focus changed now is the war in Ukraine foreign decision for me to leave the country however a new organization new Memorial organization was created in Russia chaired by Olek orlov foreign placard seriously used distributions and he participated in a number of political rallies one time he went to the streets with a sign Soviet Union of 1945 is a country that defeated fascism and 2022 Russian Federation is a country that propagates fascism um [Music] trial and during his trial hearing he substantiated this position he listed every sign and signature of a fascist regime foreign after that he delineated all of that in an article which was published afterwards and for that a criminal case against him was initiated and now he's on trial he will probably go to prison for three years right now Oleg Olaf is on trial and he is also a recipient of the Nobel Prize and he is presented represented by Dmitry muratev also a Laureate of the Nobel Prize and the publisher of the new gazetta new newspaper foreign foreign but there are plenty of people who are persecuted for their active position hundreds in fact some of them are Vladimir karamoza Alexei goren Dmitry yashan um tens of thousands thousand during anti-war manifestations tens of thousands are helping ukrainians who had to leave their country as well as people who want to leave Russia at the research my job is to write um one year after the start of the war we published a comparative study of post-soviet Wars the wars in chechnya in Syria and now in Ukraine and we demonstrated how this cruel mechanism continues to replicate itself chain of worse chain of crimes chain of impunity Alexandra guevarillo business still was Alexander said that it is the impunity that made new crimes possible and the main goal right now is to break this visual vicious circle and this chain of impunity is this astroborate America [Music] um is and a special responsibility is on the United States because of its obligations because of its commitments to peace and security and in ensuring a new international justice system that would allow to hold those responsible for the crime of aggression is foreign negotiations it might prevent the accomplishment of peace and here I remember a great American philosopher Simpsons Homer Simpson who said the first attempt is the first step towards failure foreign and I very much hope that the International Community is not going to to follow the teachings of this philosopher said business the chain of impurity must be broken because it is the foundation of the Putin's regime thank you [Applause] Alexander responsible and thank you all um we'll start the conversation the Q a for about 30 minutes and then we'll open it up for your questions Alexandra let me start with you you have been working in human rights for 20 years now and you've been documenting war crimes I believe for nine you say that even with all of your experience you weren't prepared for the level of atrocities that you've witnessed and documented since Russia's full-scale Invasion last year how many crimes have you documented thus far I believe in March it was around 67 000. when large-scale Invasion started we faced with unprecedented numbers of war crimes and we United our efforts with dozens of regional organizations we built all Ukrainian network of local documentators and cover the whole country including the occupied territories and we have an ambitious goal to document each criminal episode which was committed in the smallest Village in the job list in Ukraine and working together since 24 of February till now we have in our database more than 45 thousands episodes of war crimes 45 thousands it's enormous amount but still a tip of Iceberg because Russia uses war crimes and the methods of warfare Russia attempts to break people's resistance and occupy Ukraine by the tool which I call the immense pain and suffering of Civilian population it's very important to understand what we are doing literally when not just documenting violations of genif and her conventions we document human pain human pain when Russian troops deliberately challenged residential buildings schools churches hospitals attack evacuation corridors manage Federation camps system organized forcible deportations commit murders tortures rapes abductions and other kind of offenses against civilians and we do it not just for National Archives I have a huge respect to the work of historians but I'm not historian I'm human rights lawyer we documented for justice to have Putin and all Russians who committed these Crimes by their own hands accountable and this is important not just for ukrainians not just for people who have already affected by Russian war crimes but also for people who can be next Russian Target I know it is difficult for you to get into a lot of the hard hit areas especially those under current Russian occupation we see continued attacked on civilian infrastructure and populations Odessa has been inundated once again this past week I'm wondering if you're getting all of the international support that you need because the United States and the U.S attorney general's office had offered to help with Logistics but not with any law enforcement specifically how is that impacting your work now we face with the accountability gap which have two Dimensions firstly that there is no International Court who can prosecute Putin and lukashenka and their surroundings for the crime of aggression and all this atrocities which we are documenting is result of their leadership decision to start this war so we must create special tribunal and hold them accountable but there are second dimension international criminal court will limit its investigation only to several selected cases National system is overloaded with an extreme amount of crimes for current moment only officially more than 92 000 criminal procedures were opened it's impossible to investigate even for the best national system in the world so we urgently need International assistance to be involved into the level of national investigation and National Justice to make the national system capable to face with this challenge but now I'm speaking about as a human rights lawyer let me speak about him as a human being as a human being I was not just document investigate and prosecute war criminals who committed this horrible war crimes I want to stop this war crimes and this means that we need assistance to help Ukraine to win and this means that we need assistance to help Ukraine to release territories which Russia occupied because it's a battle not about territories this is a battle about people who live there we have no moral rights to leave these people alone for torture and Death on the Russian occupation and that is why we very grateful for all support which we received but we need more and it's very strange and weird to hear from the human rights Defenders and Nobel Peace Prize laureates but I will be very direct we need weapons we need weapons to be able to defend ourselves our country our people and our Democratic choice the ICC arrest warrant issued a few months ago for Vladimir Putin and his commissioner for children's Affairs Maria levova belova for the forced deportation of Ukrainian children um you said that was a significant moment and you had previously said that this is a bigger issue than just a war crime explain why first I will tell why a significant moment because now I found myself in his circumstances when the law doesn't work but I do believe that it's temporarily and this decision of international criminal court has sent a very clear signal that we don't care that this arrest warrant is issued against the current head of a state which has nuclear power we don't care that this arrest warrant was issued against the current head of a state which a member of permanent Council in un if this current head of state commit work crimes he will be accountable and I just can welcome such kind of thinking this is a world where I want to live in but why I tell that is just an element of the most broader picture this war has a genocidical intent and Putin very openly say that Ukrainian Nation has no right to exist there is no Ukrainian Nation there is no Ukrainian language there is no Ukrainian culture and then we can see how on Russian TV Russian propagandists tell that Ukrainian has to be either educated as Russians or killed and then in practice we document how Russian troops when they occupy territories deliberately exterminate local people there priests artists journalists human rights Defenders like anyone who can organize even non-violence resistance how Russian troops prohibited Ukrainian language Ukrainian history and in this regard this illegal deportation of Ukrainian children to Russia to russian-reducated Camp to Russian family in order to be brought up as Russians is a part of genocidical policy how to ruin the Ukrainian Nation because if you want totally or partially destroy some group there is no necessity to kill them all you can forcibly change their people identity and the entire group will disappear and that is why we can't stop fighting if we stop fighting they will be no more us and we saw plainly I remember a few months ago where Russian children the Ukrainian children were paraded in Moscow at the stadium there and they were thanking their hero Russian soldiers for saving them for muddyopal these were nine and ten-year-old children who were forced to put on this charade for the Russian audience Vladimir Putin was standing right there and you're right the ICC did have some sort of impact with that arrest warrant it appears Vladimir Putin canceled a trip to South Africa perhaps for that reason Alexander I want to turn to you um you had said that despite being liquidated and closed your work continues can you elaborate more on exactly how you're continuing to operate outside the country yeah yeah [Music] I continue much the same work as I have done all these years I probably was a terrible chairman of a community of a center however I am a pretty good analyst foreign [Music] [Music] the same crimes that were committed 20 years ago in chechnya and never were investigated the same crimes continue now and what's more the same people who committed those crimes continue to commit current crimes foreign the investigation could go on for example one of the cases of Annapolis I was able to identify all the culprits and I believe that those old crimes should be reopened and should be fully investigated foreign direct impact on current events one case in point Igor strelkov he was the person who started the war in the east of Ukraine he was the one responsible for shooting down the Malaysian Boeing now his name is in the news again recently he has been arrested foreign he was one of the functionaries he was one of the organizers of the system of enforced disappearances so-called death squadrons and he is responsibles he's responsible for hundreds of murders and I could give you at least 10 confirmed names he wasn't punished for those crimes and that allowed him to go on it is however there are plenty of people every post so and these people need to be found they need to be identified they need to be hunted much like Nazi criminals after World War one was some say that this kind of persecution of these criminals would prevent post-war reconciliation [Music] my colleague was describing a dangerous situation forming up in Belarus the place that now houses dangerous weapons nuclear weapons and houses dangerous people such as pregos but Russia is stuffed with such dangerous characters the people who are not even hiding who are not operating undercover and Russia also has nuclear weapons so we are not just talking human rights we're not talking we're not just talking about global Justice or overcoming impunity we are talking about Global Security and our efforts one would say concerns only history nevertheless it is very relevant today [Music] and I intend to continue Alexander [Applause] Alexander we heard from Alexandra earlier that it's not enough for Ukraine to win the war but Russia needs to lose I'm wondering your thoughts on that how you view if you agree with her because I go back to Vladimir Putin calling organizations like yours calling people like you calling opponents and dissidents to the war as fifth column as scum as Traders feel free to leave the country he doesn't want you there and it seems like his biggest threat today is coming not from the progressive activists or opposition but from people who are even more right-wing than he is like a pregosian so in your view is Alexandra Wright that it's not just Ukraine's win that we need to strive for it's Russia's loss foreign [Music] well I probably will who is not my personal opinion but a general consensus that was formed among the opponents of the regime who left Russia and who gathered up in late April in Berlin they formulated a general position the conditional code is Russia is yes of those who love encounter certain problems however much more importantly for us are people who stayed who chose to stay behind and who continue their work it's important for us to help them is but the most important goal for all of us is the dismantling of the Putin's regime foreign foreign objective for the Russian opposition is the victory of Ukraine because without it we will not be able to deal with all other tasks on our agenda Russia um [Music] and many of my colleagues are also helping I mentioned that helping ukrainians who were forcibly moved to Russia to leave the country and I would say our assistance to them as well as to the ukrainians who are in Ukraine is also an important goal is and I think in general this is a truly patriotic positions my friend and colleague is a true patriot and that's the reason he did what he did and that's the reason why he is now held in prison before we turn to Constantine one last question and Alexa are you worried that whatever replaces Vladimir Putin's regime could put your colleagues who are still in Russia and even more Danger um foreign you know we have such experience actually in 1953 there was there was one man who died that year and that man was surrounded by accomplices by allies by his retinue foreign well and all of them all these people rushed to dismantle the regime that that man who died created and first among them was the National Security director laurenti Beria so just like let's not be afraid of the worst things that might happen in the future otherwise the future will come without us and just like Homer Simpson said the our children are our future unless we stop them don't stop children Homer Simpson are our national poet Laurette well I wish I had I wish I had some of your optimism so I appreciate hearing that Constantine uh we talked about Alice in his well-being right now in may a friend told CNN that contact had been lost with him for a month also that month more than 100 Nobel laurez had called for his release and at the Nobel lecture given by Natalia pinchuk in her husband's honor and she received the prize she shared some of his thoughts where he said I recently had a short dialogue when will you be released they asked me I am already free and my soul was my reply my free Soul hovers over the dungeon and over the maple leaf outlines of Belarus what does that say about Alice's Spirit and the foundation which was organized in 1996 in its fight for the human rights situation compared to where we stand now oh that that says that alas just like uh Alexander skolic Ole Karlov uh who stayed in Russia unless state in Belarus and he knew he would be arrested and it takes immense courage to do that but it also actually frees you even if you're in prison and that's what he described in his in the quote that you just read out that he is actually not in captivity in in spiritually in uh in his mind he's free and that is because he believes he strongly believes in what um and what he preaches and what he has done over those years and he also is fills this direct responsibility for the organization that he founded 27 years ago he understands how important the work of Human Rights defenders in Belarus is how important it is to to continue uh to be to lead this movement of Human Rights uh whether you are in prison or free you said that if you can wins and lukashenko Falls the transition to democracy will be a quick one and I'd like to pick up on that because it does seem like the Crackdown against dissidents and against those who are seeking human rights activists and and advocating for them has only increased especially since the election the Sham election of 2020. um remains in Exile so why do you think there's hope for a quick transition to democracy in the country right now well there are several reasons which make uh May believe make this assumption which I think is it will come true first is because the majority of belarusians do not actually support the government's policies that's a proven fact we know it for sure um also we believe that when this change comes with this opportunity for a change come uh the uh system of lukashanka's regime will collapse just like uh Putin's regime will collapse that's inevitable that's how it operates that's the the structure of the system and we also believe that having a functional and vibrant Civil Society uh tune at this point will help make this transition quick peaceful and durable uh the durable in the sense of the Democracy that is going to come because the human rights Defenders such the champions of those values that are going to be the basis of the future free Belarus give us a snapshot of what life is like in Belarus right now because unfortunately from the outside world we seem to be covering it only when there's certain news of meetings between lukashenko and Vladimir Putin sightings in the country right now but we know that more than 500 lawyers have been stripped of licenses and quit the profession since 2020 36 journalists are currently in jail right now what is the situation like there well in terms of repression it is uh daily for three years already that means daily arrests daily trials daily uh ill treatment on the part of uh the police daily torture and prisons in terms of the entire Society we perceive we will get signals and evidence from people in Belarus that the atmosphere is an atmosphere of Terror people not speaking about the silent silent part of of the society who will always remain silent but the people who supported the protest three years ago and we believe that there are hundreds of thousands of them uh only those who took to the streets and there are many more who supported that movement they since they uh identify themselves associate themselves with that movement for human rights for a better future for Belarus they um feel insecure that the extension it is uh not ending for three years that that creates uh this atmosphere of Terror that prevents people from uh living normal lives from raising their children from uh having any hopes for a better future how alarmed should we be whether it's for fear of the Fallout continued Fallout from the failed Mutiny between Alexander lukashenko and Vladimir Putin because there did seem to be a bit of him of lukashenko in particular that we saw emboldened over the last few weeks well it is alarming to especially to the people of Belarus because we know what the the Russian masonry could do what they did in Ukraine this is absolutely shocking uh so we really care about people of Belarus and the way uh sympathize with them but it's also alarming to the Nations that uh the neighbors of Belarus because they what the things that lukashenka says and what the precaution says they uh do not contribute to a safe environment around Belarus definitely and uh that uh has already caused some response from from from Poland and Lithuania in terms of security and that only increases this cycle of tension and insecurity questions for all of you to just answer and then we'll open it up for audience questions um and Alexandra's Nobel lecture given last December you pose the question how can we make human rights meaningful again do all of you agree that human rights have indeed lost meaning in the world today and I'll start with you well uh I'm more of a pessimist maybe since uh um since I my boss is in prison that's the outcome of what what you describe it uh human rights losing its uh essential meaning that is true especially for the region that I represent but globally I think that human rights are okay I believe I believe in the human process the progress uh it is irreversible in my opinion in in the countries they're the champions of democracy and human rights uh in those countries uh in the top supporters of democracy in Belarus human rights are there forever I'm pretty sure Alexander what would Homer Simpson say to that question um there are a lot of things in common between Homer Simpson and me because he worked at the nuclear power plant and so was I foreign [Laughter] foreign while joking aside the human crisis is in evidence but the difference is that it's not that Vladimir Putin is trying to promote some different values it's just he has absolutely none is his position is that there are no such thing as values there are only interests and values are valuable only because they're used as a face as a mask for one's interests so people who are not working for him must work for his enemies they must be foreign agents however this approach that there are no values is actually a very infectious approach a lot of other a lot of other countries complicated the foreign agent legislation they were inspired by this approaches so it is actually quite a formidable undertaking to resuscitate to resurrect the values however other politicians not Putin but others they present human rights and other values I think I have already demonstrated how in current Unthinkable situation the human rights the overcoming of impurity could become a foundation of sorts foreign human rights could become an important and valuable idea if every time they will be thought of they would always be in the corner of one's mind and will always be applied to every situation otherwise it's just dead letters on a dead piece of paper before I open it up for the audience questions it is symbolic as we noted that a Ukrainian a belarussian and a Russian are co-laureates and Alexandra some ukrainians did not agree with that decision I heard from people on online and on Twitter that they were surprised that even the three of you would be here together how do you respond to that criticism first I want to explain to the audience why some parts of Ukrainian Society criticize this decision of noble Community because sometimes it's not understandable for International Community but when ukrainians see this title Russia Ukraine and Belarus together it's immediately referred us to the Soviet Union time and this big myth about sisters Nations which was a huge lie because there was no sister Nations only one nation was dominate only one language was dominated and only one culture was dominated and now when we are in war and Russia and Belarus are countries aggressors it's become extremely painful to accept this life life and that is why I explained to Ukrainian society that this a word not about countries this award about people and if we want to refer to the Soviet Union let's refer to the dissidence movements when people who stood up their ways for freedom from different countries work together build in visible ties even for their own societies and fight jointly against common evil who try dominate in our part of the world and now we see how history is repeated I work with Russian and human Russian and Belarus human rights Defenders for years before this war started in 2014 and even more intense When The War started after 2014 and I extremely grateful for my human rights colleagues that when I applied for them with hundreds requests of help about Ukrainian political prisoners about finding variables of illegally detained Ukrainian civilians about doing something in unbelievable circumstances in with their work they always respond me with the help and assistance the only problem is that such kind of people as my Brave human rights colleague it's a tiny minority in Russia unfortunately the majority of Russians either support this war of aggression or decided to take the position of their official government and this also return us why my colleagues told that success of Ukraine will open the the past to democratic future of Russia and Belarus itself because it's helped the majority of Russian to reflect their own imperialistic culture they need to be defeated they need to understand that it's not okay in 21 century to invade in other countries to kill people to deny their identity that they have to find another basis for Russian Glory so I have questions that have already been submitted from the audience but for those who are joining online we have asked that you submit your questions via the QR code or via the YouTube chat online uh here let's get to some of the questions now Alexander what is the best to the point we were just talking about what is the best most effective way for us to strengthen and support Russian resistors working to disintegrate Putin's regime Russians both inside and abroad that question was asked by Barbara foreign well you see many people in Russia who are working in this area think that they're alone that there are no other like-minded individuals that they are facing along this government monster of a concrete compactor a problem Russian authorities are boiling the situation slowly they're slowly taking away access to free media to the social networks you could only access them through a VPN now VPN is being rolled back [Music] the west by the Western sanctions actually complicate access to the internet for everybody including the opponents of the regime one would need to think about um while not throwing the baby with the water while suppressing the regime not to suppress also the opponents of the regime is foreign from the problem of political prisoners apart from the fact that human rights Defenders are becoming few and far between we we also need to remember that we should not leave a person alone facing something like that alone [Music] my case in point and my teachers are polish solidarity movement and they told stories about how they used to help people who were facing much the same situation after the introduction of the martial laws [Music] so then perhaps we will find out something very unusual that the majority does not belong to Putin that the majority is a number of loners who feel certain way let me ask you a question that Sylvia submitted Belarus has been supporting Russia against Ukraine allowing weapons and troops to go through the country how can normal citizens oppose the war are they doing so and is it not getting media coverage uh belarusians did a lot after the Russia invaded Ukraine including through the territory of Belarus they provided media pre-media and ukrainians with photos of footage of Russian troops moving through through Belarus but the response the violent response of the government to to those uh attempts to leak information uh uh actually stopped any any attempts to do so in in the future because people were shout out at the people who just shared photos online received huge prison sentences up to 15 years in prison um I cannot blame belarusians not to do so today especially since uh the military presence of Belarus is not that um is much lesser today than it was after the war started however we can expect that now that the bug in the mercenary sun in Belarus those cases of people uh expressing the Civic possession by sharing information about uh wagon troops in Belarus can result in new oppressions and against those people involved result in new violence prison terms including the loan ones Alexandra that comes from Janet and I'm glad we were addressing this Janet says American politicians actions are in part motivated by what their voters push for what do Americans need to understand better about the war they may not understand well today and this is coming as we're approaching a presidential election year in this country as well typically foreign policy isn't a top priority for Americans when they do go cast their ballots what is your response to that question why should this be more of a priority for Americans and I'm just going to add on to this what do you make of the kerfuffle that came out of NATO about just how much gratitude Ukraine should Express to the West I think that it's very important to emphasize once again that this war has not just military or economic or informational but very visible value dimension this is more about values different set of values for example I'm a woman and maybe you will be interesting to know this 60 thousands of Ukrainian women joined Ukraine Armed Forces among them my friend Adriana sussac who left her six-year-old son to fight for her son peaceful and Democratic future and in this war we as Ukrainian women fighting also for our rights because when we speak about Russian World and all type of authoritarian regimes women play their very assigned role for for them in society and family and this is a basis for all authoritarian regimes because how people behave between each others is just a projection how power behaved to people and that is why in Norway men and women have equal rights in Afghanistan women are prohibited to study in University and in Russia the domestic violence were decriminalized because once again it's always a projection how power behave towards their own people and in this war Ukrainian women are fighting also for our daughters not to be obliged in future to convince anyone that we are all human beings so this is very important this is a word about values and when and this word has no no like limitation in National borders when we speak about well-use senses and ideas you mentioned before my Noble Peace speech and I told that we have to return human right their meaning because I saw how well developed democracies for decades compromised with dictatorship and this because they want to obtain some short-term benefits and that is why they based their decision in external policy not only on economical benefit or security issues geopolitical interests but Russia is a clear example even if you have these short-term benefits you will have a huge catastrophe in long term when you don't put your decisions on a human rights values which you declare and that is why it's so important the understand that there are a lot of things which have no limitation in National borders Freedom such kind of things and solidarity is such kind of things and people have a much more impact that they can even imagine I know what I'm saying about because I was in here when Russian troops tried to Circle it and not just Putin even our International partners so that Kiev will fall in three or four days I received dozens and dozens of code with requests to immediate evacuation but what I want to tell that that time when International organizations evacuated from Kiev Ordinary People remained and Ordinary People start to do extraordinary sync and suddenly it's become very visible that people who believe in Freedom and fight for freedom are even stronger than the second army in the world that believe in values have a very visible practical impact and change the reality completely so that is why I myself optimistic in nature I look in future with optimism I don't see the future will be easy it will be difficult but I know when you can't rely on the law or International System of peace and security when you can't rely on responsible politician decisions in different countries you can still rely on people and that is why [Applause] I will use this chance to once again apply to people in United States of America and other countries with a call for solidarity we have fight for freedom freedom has no limitation in National borders only spread of Freedom make our world safer and I think we have time for maybe one or two Max more questions uh and Alexander won't ask you this from Brian how do you see opposition in Russia reaching a Tipping Point to overthrow the Putin regime when and how do you see people tiring of losing and doing something in Mass either the bureaucrats around Putin or the public um [Music] friends every morning was the news to find out if Putin is still alive when so many people want the same thing perhaps it would happen no um [Music] when you are a runner and you run and behind Each corner you expect to see a Finish Line you will not make it too far you cannot maintain a sprinter breathing Rhythm and run a marathon foreign people who were in prison under Stalin who were sent to prison for 25 years and who every year expected something to happen for Americans to drop a nuclear bomb or something like that they did not survive they actually went insane uh 20 years ago I said practically the same words to my church and colleagues when we send our application to the Strasbourg Court uh foreign [Music] made a number of verdicts it deliberated a number of cases but nothing happened nothing has happened um I'm afraid that if people are waiting for a miracle every day they will get tired nevertheless when something happens it happens unexpectedly is the Czech Republic colleagues had this adage they said we are together forever with the Soviet Union but not One Day More news that's when that day would come and that's when we would have to exert a lot of effort however it doesn't mean that we should that we should do nothing in the meantime foreign a landscape is uncertain and when your Maps lie then it's important to count on your compass accomplice but not the simple cartoon the one that points at your heart most heart utmost desire Virginia and when the Soviet Union collapsed many people wished for the same thing it's not that they wanted anybody dead it's just they had a common vision and for us our common vision is human rights um what uh let us try not to lose our campus and sometimes your campus helps everybody else okay and one last quick question before we conclude um every Nobel Prize asked Gloria to donate an object to the Nobel Prize Museum have you decided what that object is do you know what Alice is no not yet especially since there is not much opportunities to contact him but I think yeah yeah much of many of his belongings are available I hope so those are not arrested deceased by the authorities yeah and I'm sure that it can be done Alexandra our organization is famous for our ability of mass involvement of ordinary people into human rights work like my colleagues previously told if we left human rights defense only for experts for lawyers for diplomats we will fail because human rights is a special way of thinking how people perceive this world and this way of thinking then resulting in Practical decisions and practical actions and that is why we have already provided to Nobel Peace Museum one like very common in Ukraine item it's an item of civil Observer it's a like special wallet of civil Observer who we started this initiatives and teach Ordinary People how to provide civil monitoring of the action of power police courts local authorities why we think that is important yes Ordinary People are not experts but like they have common sense they have wisdom they have desire to live in a space without fear of violence and this is important and common people have to take responsibility on their own shoulders like now in this world when I ask myself why we face with so cruelty I answered because Russian troops try to provide so much pain to Ukrainian that ingrains this learned helplessness among people and what we can counteract to this pain just our own human responsibility that we can't transfer our responsibility to politicians to International Community to someone else that we have to bring this responsibility to our own shoulders and to stand and that is why when we speak about people it's very important what people think but it's their civil obligation to act how they are thinking and to be active in a time of Crisis because we never choose the country in which we're born we never choose a time in which we're born we can only choose will we be honest people and try to take responsibility and fight with Injustice or we keep silence and help evil to dominate this is the only one choice which exists Alexander do you know uh orig foreign of the great Terror wrote a Requiem where she wrote these words I want to name every name but my list was taken away from me and I don't know where to look for it the return of actual names people faces people who were consigned to non-existence who had been consigned to non-existence that is our main mission and we give to the museum several books with the story with the life stories of these people with their life details including the book of disappeared Chechen people Optical subscribe we wanted to change people's perception so that they wouldn't look at the world from the Angelic Heights but to allow them to zoom in uh yes any payment uh foreign if children are to grow up looking at these faces at these human faces of History they will grow up to be true citizens they will understand the correlation point between their actions and the future transformation which uh [Music] that's how slowly would be we would be able to transform our society into such a society where repetition of past crimes would be unthinkable is and these were several books with human faces human life stories with our gifts our gift to the museum that is fascinating and I think this is a perfect way to end this really enlightening conversation so I want to thank you and thank Carnegie for inviting me and having this distinguished panel all come together for a wonderful conversation and very sobering one as well thank you all thank you [Applause] foreign

Channel: Carnegie Endowment

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Id: XOweQVv2h4c

Length: 97min 12sec (5832 seconds)

Published: Thu Jul 27 2023