A Conversation with Rev. Dr. Frank A. Thomas hosted by Dr. Gina M. Stewart

[Music] you well I'm I'm dr. Gina Stewart Gina M Stewart and I have the privilege today of serving as the guest host of the preaching african-american preaching Legacy series so today you get to be in the chair and we get a chance to talk to you and interview you and share conversation with you so we're glad that we're gonna get a chance to hear from you today well thank you for being willing to do it and I'm open and excited that we could could get it done okay so tell us a little bit about yourself mm-hmm my name is Frank a Thomas I am the director of the ph.d program a chimeric appreciates a career Eric I am the son of El meifa Thomas and John Frank Thomas I have been a pastor for 31 years in my life I passed the two wonderful congregations nucleate Baptist Church and Mississippi both of our Christian Church I have a wonderful family of my wife we've been married now 41 years a name is Joyce Scott Thomas we have two children Anthony Anthony Williams and Rachel soldier net and we are now the proud grandparents of our very first grandchild - my daughter Rachel and husband Milton dickerson and the baby's name is August at least Dickerson and so I just just completed my grandparent training did you play pass with flying colors what magna laude there's buddy Gracie God I got out of that you know the you know they put me to training that's ready I'm legal now really just I've been blessed to have that child in our life and it's amazin amazing people talk about it all time yeah but it's an amazing experience and so I am I right I publish a couple books and things but mostly I'm just you know a servant a person who really tries to serve God and with faithfulness with love compassion for people with integrity and mercy so tell us a little bit about I know you say you've been preaching for a number of years tell us about your call and you're preaching journey I have a very no one in my family of my immediate family is a preacher I was the first one to be a preacher so I'd really didn't have a model I I sometimes Envy people who whose parents were preachers father and mother were preachers and they grew up here and preaching and seeing preaching and grew up in church so my mother put us in Catholic school and then when I was in eighth grade I went out of Catholic school very early into public school for six seven years and then she put us into a Lutheran school I went to a Lutheran High School Luther high school south and Chicago and in those classes in that name you have a religion class and I joined a Lutheran Church Timothy Lutheran Church on 83rd and Pillai know and so I was active and there was an african-american carnation called Faith Lutheran Church I was confirmed there and I didn't have any you know any acclamation for ministry I was just you know just trying to follow God I went there I went to college at University of my Champaign Urbana and I joined a Lutheran Church and a a ministry there and the the head of the church the pastor kept saying to me as I was graduating you should go to seminary and wanted to get me to go to a Lutheran seminary I'm short notice in st. Louis I couldn't see it I couldn't just all I knew was I love religion every religion class that was like I got an A Okay high school we had a history of religions class universe or not University of North Bay and it had to be 250 people in that class I set the curve for that class so as it would be I graduated and by this time Joyce was a member of the United Methodist Church in our neighborhood I became a member of and how you I did was that you only could play basketball on Tuesday and Thursday if you went to Sunday school they took the sign is gonna miss to get to do it you know so when you come in late were you and on a list well what list he need to be on it's Sunday school so I started going Sunday school there right right and I was at that early age where I was enjoying it but you couldn't you couldn't at all I'm just here you know these put the front up right and I'm just here right but it was melting my heart see I got my first Bible she taught me for you know I miss my road taught me for God's a little world I mean I ate it alive and she happened to be a white woman who was just teaching black kid it's older white woman and I think that that has at least you have not even rated racism in church it opened me up that everybody can serve God right this white woman oh she was all taught me Sunday School I mean gave me my first Bible I mean he really taught me an anchor so I [Music] graduated from college and went home to the church and it was celebrating you know those times did you graduate is a wonderful thing the the men's day speaker canceled at the last minute past caught me up that's the Gessle Barry called me up and said the speaker has canceled this is this is Thursday we need a speaker for Sunday and you graduate and want you to be the speak of a Sunday and I said yes before I knew it no some came out of yet I didn't know right okay so I put my little message together it was long I mean I covered Genesis to Revelation so the mother to church said you were good but you are long right so I've always kept look good you covered everything you were good few long couldn't tell it off I was just quick I was on my way to I was on a study the history of religions I wasn't do a PhD in history religions I was gonna go to University of North Carolina and I just got married and the joints didn't want to leave yet she was you know we were kind of work through it so the pastor said well I can take you over here to a seminary Christian cockatiel a seminary I went there and just started to study and fell in love with it and I had a class and then I'll shortness is far too long I had a class I did a paper he was at Catholic theological Union I was only you know at this similar within seven seminary schools were in Hyde Park Chicago so you could take in classes that when you apply to your same degree to your home school I was only Catholic I'll Comerica in Rome and a teacher said I want to see a Frank Thomas and I was like oh god no you know panic City I mean like so he said can you do it after class and I'm like no I could but you know think about it get born hands so next week I went in and you know Catholics they said I'll be on so I said it was just the light was down she was comfortable I mean God was in that place he said to me what are you gonna do with yourself I said I'm on my way the teachings for religion he said you're gonna be a teacher I said yes he said you have a heart for people the way you treated this let justice roll down like waters Tex you have the heart of a pastor yeah and I said but no you misunderstand church people are crazy what do you mean I'm going to teach he said and an opportunity opened up so my call came kind of circumstance or angels speaking to me it's just the circumstances God orchestrated to get me in the right place so when I got to seminary I could barely acknowledge a call I got the class I could barely acknowledge to be a pastor so it's been kind of incremental I just and I just kept saying yeah you know if you keep saying yes to God you get there right so God kept presenting God self and I kept saying yes and so that's really how I got there and then I went out and became the pastor they invited me be the interim and then I became the pastor you think Baptist Church that's an interesting call story yeah yeah thanks for sharing well thank you thank you this kind of circuitous but um it took a while like the exodus journey yeah well yeah it really no it took me a while matter of fact I was studying for the GMAT which is the I was gonna take a masters in business I wasn't get an MBA mm-hmm and I bought the book to study manual and I got halfway through that book and I closed it never to open it again wow this is not what I'm supposed to be doing so tell us about your preaching mentors who are you preaching Mentors well I told you that I didn't grow up hearing african-american preaching on a regular basis per se and the first time I really noticed african-american preaching I was a junior come home between junior college between I gone away to Champaign Urbana and I came home for the summer and one of our friends had been killed in a botched shoe store robbery basket we plan a basketball team together you know neighborhood lived by right back behind me alley across the alley and everything and I was I was totally devastated and we would talk we were just devastated we went to a t30 and Ament but a pastillas Ravenel Cakery and I sat there and there was a despondency over that whole room and he preached and I declare when he preached I felt better I don't remember what he said I can't tell you the scripture I can't tell you the sermon time it was a huge right but when he got through and I kept how did he do that I mean how do you take a person from despair to hope and I know it was God and I know it was the Holy Spirit but it was something about him and his style and the way he did it and so that gave me a sense of wonder and mystery and hope about african-american preaching mm-hmm especially african-american preaching done well right so that stuck in me and from there Jeremiah Wright was a major preaching mentor of mine I joined Trinity in 1977 my wife and I and I was in seminary at the time and I had had an experience that was very painful for me in a church I was in a internship and got thrown out of my internship so I'll tell preachers your ministry don't start till you get thrown that you feel education sighs deeply Scott so I went to the Trinity just to sit in the pew I wasn't trying to be reverent about it I was right I was just you know and so I remember he would he would play the organ and then leave the organ and with service started he'd go around and being a puppet but before a service start he would just be out playing the organ so I had no idea who he was I mean people talking to me you know it's when they go turn it go to trade and so he saw saw him switched on the organized over he can play the organ and then he prayed to pastoral prayer and in the pastoral prayer he cried I had never seen a pastor cry and it was a I was despondent I was crying my own self so that opened up a relationship so I didn't I didn't do anything I just sat in the back and somebody over to seminary told him that I was over and I was a seminarian I was and he took an interest and one thing led to another and we built a relationship and I ended up installing me in two churches and just being my pastor phone for my life I also heard Frederick G Sampson he was the first preacher that ever heard to put Shakespeare in a sermon and I was the kind of nerdy kind of type you know read all that stuff and he would come to Gordon Humphreys Church in Chicago he would start Mother's Day night I hate to run through fright now they were doing six-day revivals right and he preached the sermon called the death of hope mr. roti man what do you do when hope dies and when I had Negro finished that sermon so I kept I bought there was a preacher named Sutton he'd go to the National Baptist Convention and he will recall and he'd sell out tapes I don't know how random I bought 100 Frederick juice and I bought every friend to do something sermon yet I still have many of them still and I just listened and I just listened and and I said if I ever got a church I would ask him to come and do revival so I loved his intellect he was you know he'd hoop at the end but you know I couldn't quite do that but I mean just I just craziness i'ma tell you to store it finished that story then then I'll come back to another mentor so I finally became a pastor I became a pastor in 1982 and I was 35 people new faith Baptist churches naming a church we're in rented facilities and I got to proclaim the Lord gave me a vision and we don't have land in six months see if I knew what I know now you know I believe God and we got it we got the land six months Wow right you heard gosh okay we got land we got laughs I got five acres of land glory to God five acres so then I said okay y'all feeling confident we don't get us a building so it took us five years in 1987 we got a very first building and I want to do my very first revival so I called up Barbara was Barbara little was a name his secretary and I said I know dr. Samson very very busy preacher but would he come to a little Church live all ain't got many members I got you know I got 207 us we literally just getting started great would he come she said um sure he'd come let me check with him and so she went chef I don't she called me back said he'll come I said look don't fool me now just coming right well it's my first arrival right 3-star you coming you said if I say he come and he coming right so he came I remember I begged of people to come right you know any past I'm victim I big this L this is our first years like I said I don't like to have revival and the house same for ya you know God please come please come so I went to pick him up in on those days you know when you pick up the preacher right yeah that's a big that I was scared he went come I spent he flew Southwest from Detroit right something under the mannequin so if I got people waiting on me so I was like for class we freezes all servers right the plane landed for you know we do in six o'clock telling me seven but you know then that first night I didn't hear incoming he's not coming I'm at the time at the Doosan he came out to play he preached that night and he closed the summer with somebody uh he went to look at a car and it was a Mercedes and the man told him this guy will sell itself keep it for the weekend he said that's what God that is God got so much confidence in me keep up for the weekend you know get your bag now you keep it again so anyway so we built just a wonderful relationship across a whole lot of time and a whole lot of time and how it Thurman is you know I listen to a tremendous number of Howard Thurman tapes just the kind of I like what he was doing I like to depth and so those have probably served as primary l Cakery Frederick G Sampson Jeremiah Wright and all of his is a wonderful preacher and and Howard Thurman listen Howard Thurman after that Gardner Taylor I you know my favorite sermon is his own clothes by Gardner Taylor I listened to a lot of free Craddock I love Frank radix preaching I like pray field Hall so those are kind of in the pantheon of who I will consider mentors in preaching right so how would you describe yourself as a preacher in terms of your preaching style would you say that you are expose or narrative or mmm-hmm let me back up to the frit Samson story and then go go forward I've wrestled with my preaching style a long time and still sort of kind of do wrestle and so Fred Simpson contracted cancer mm-hmm and whenever admission and came back and free to his daughter called me on the phone and said Frank if you want to see any better come see him it's not flew to Detroit and I stayed a week Carol a night came because this was gonna be it Friday night they had a celebration of his ministry and he was putting his towel in the company got sick and they took him to the hospital he'd even come Charles giotto's priest that thing and I'd whole community celebrating you know so I had to preach Saturday night and new faith cuz we had a Saturday night service and so I went to the hospital to see him and I flew home and I knew that this was the last time I was gonna see him on this side I knew that so I said doc I need to say to you a few things thank you did all of that and I said I'm wrestling with my preaching style I said I'm not loud I don't sing I don't have a big finish and you know this is like you know this is like 19 I mean this is this is late I've been preaching I started pastoring in 1982 sometime but my 17 anytime I like you know I'm just starting I'm a pastor I'm talking my deep into my I'm still struggling right church is growing you know I mean people invite me I mean I'm still struggling because I can't preach like this or like that I can't I can't close hard you know I don't even running this out and all that so when I got through it all that he said I'm what fourth did they go out to the desert to see and I didn't understand he said a man dressed in fine clothes hmm a reed swayed by the wind he said that's not what no he said they go to see a prophet and I want a prophet indeed he said go home and look at that up in Luke and I want to lick that thing up and so that was one of the critical moments to help me accept my style when that's a strange thing to say 17 or 18 years in but that it is what it is right right so I think that I'm a narrative preacher though I am helping a PhD student out at fuller he did an independent study with me on contemplative preaching and as I read his paper we did a piece on contemplative preaching for preaching with sacrified Matheson's an app for the the anthology of african-american preaching and I always considered myself in that category and I did some initial work in thinking about it but when I read his paper I began to identify myself more and more as a contemplative preacher and so what is a contemplative preacher well I like depth that's not that anybody else don't like depth but you know how the Thurman had that that depth sometimes you got to listen more you can say Amen because you know it's deeply interior Copeland says she's an interior you know it goes deep discount sometimes it's quiet sometimes it's so so the way that I characterize it is I'm gonna tell another story everything else as a part of my growing up my father was a jazz musician and he would play saxophone and they had something called music minus one so it'd be a whole Orchestra minus one instrument and then people so I grew up underneath me hearing jazz music and you think a full ensemble was down there I don't know and so I could hear John Coltrane I could hear it and I remember I said that it sounds like noise I can't make it's just this is just noise I mean what what's the yeah am I missing something so he said and Coltrane is playing ideas and when you get old enough you'll be able to hear the ideas behind the sound well you know you store that up and I got married and I was going through some olp that my father had and he was Giant Steps John Coltrane so I got it played it and I heard it I heard the ideas behind the sign years later years later so my father comes to hear me preach right I'm in Memphis now this is after 2000 went to Memphis in 1999 drove down spent some time hear me preach and he said to me after hearing he said you playing ideas hmm I admit the world to me so you're playing you're playing idea so what I hear is idea I think that many preachers here hear rhythm and hear cadence I hear ideas now I think ideas a deeply emotional I don't think that right and sometimes the emotion is not in the rhythm and the cadence though it can be you know see for me personally I have to have my organist put me where I need to be so when I'd miss it the boulevard I was you know I had regular organized he could put me there it's hard for me to go there by myself something good about me no that's right I need nobody that's right and when I when you preach in with different places the organs don't know you and you don't know the Orient is right in trouble you're in trouble right so yeah you look just stop it right I'm about to mess up you about to miss me yeah ray so when I come down I hear ideas I hear deeply emotive ideas and I transfer those ideas in some rhythm and in some cases I have sermons that that happens but it's with the right organist so when I say contemplative preaching I think that's what I mean so I think that I am a a contemplative preacher sometimes narrative sometimes expository but this whole sense of a quiet and so things are important and contemplative preaching is vocal tone and simple as everybody but voice inflection how do you convey emotion in your tones and your feelings so what happens to me as a fraction of a second before I say what I'm going to say the emotion hits me then the tone follows the emotion so we don't have we don't do much work in our traditional contemplative preaching yet this young man a name is Trey Clarke I'm working with them and so we hope to you'll do is just a smile contemplative preaching hopefully a book on contemplative preaching and we have contemplative preachers Howard Thurman as I as a contemplative preacher and he did a paper on James Massie we have we have a tradition in the anthology we label some of these people men and women I think this Barbara has the contemplative preachers but our tradition generally is the more demonstrative aspects of our tradition which are which is okay but I think coming up we're gonna begin to lift these contemplative preachers so that was a long way around but I mean you see I've been thinking about that just give me what I what I'm thinking about right right so tell me about this preaching series I know that you've interviewed several preachers pastors across the country including yourself right thank you what is the genesis and the vision behind this preaching like african-american preaching legacy series it started when I had Jeremiah Wright come here and add on to me is it's crazy to have him come here and not do an interview with him so now I got it well what questions are you gonna ask him how are you gonna approach this and I decided that I did not want to do any questions on the whole FoxNews creation about his sermons and taking them out of context and all of that I wanted people to see him as the preacher as the pastor preacher that I know so I kind of shaped the questions for example I asked him when was the time that you thought that God really used you mightily and preaching and he told the story about being in Cuba when having this woman as an interpreter and he preached five nights and she interpreted on the last night when do you open the doors of the church she came out of her interpreters world came down well I gave a light that was for him mm-hmm he's been a Hampton twice you know me all over the place but that because at the heart he's a pastor right at heart he's ministering to people now now God takes the ministry and blows it up and blows us and blows you up it but at the heart of it at the very core you just trying to do God's will you got a little call you in preach the gospel you're not trying to become dr. Gina Marcy let's do it that happens right because God Grace's exactly who you really are is a person trying to be faithful to your call Hey right trying to end up often a pastor trying to help people and serve people and so I kind of design the series so that some of the people that I've known across my years of ministry what's the second one was Otis Moss jr. for example right after Trump was elected and he was here for the PhD program that make sense that Otis Moss tune you up here I'm not interviewing and so we're the oldest mas interview and then it hit me so much of our genius goes to the grave and maybe we could have an archiving role where people could just share as people you know we have victories we have defeats we have glorious preaching opportunities and sometimes we don't know you know you can be so hurt in this thing you take Jesus to stand you up on so anymore in your own church well don't hurt you right right I've been there I've been I've been hurt and I got it with whatever piece of sermon I could muster it wasn't my best piece right but the fact that I had the audacity to stand there still preach and I wanted the audience to capture a whole sense behind some of these celebrative and rightfully so pastors and preachers and in hopes that another pastor or another preacher or a younger preacher might be encouraged might strengthen their own preaching might be able to get past or you know people say stuff like you don't come to little churches do you right yeah I was a little trouble you talking about right I forgot that right I started with 35 members I used to Jeremiah Wright brought more Trinity members to my installation that I had members mm-hmm they fill the place and my little members over here right I said my analogy for it is you know we used to be a little dingy out there in the water he's big ocean liner churches would come back I love this wait what do you mean up yeah I come by schedule mm-hmm no no I never forgot I so my hope with all of this stuff is to that we help people see that God has done amazing things but we just like every other passage on rain trying to be faithful yeah and there's a backstory it is that most people don't see I heard but I believe it was TD jakes he said it was that people look at our lives like the end of a movie yeah we come in after all of the struggle and all of the tragedy but there's a backstory that many people people don't know and so this preaching this african-american preaching Legacy series has really been a blessing to hear the back story of so many preachers that we admire and look up to and emulate and imitate it's just kids so we appreciate that that contribution and and the contribution that the seminary is making you mentioned earlier that one of the questions you asked dr. Wright in his interview was when he felt that Lord really used him what would you say what would be your answer to that question you know I think it was at Hampton High the circumstances of Hampton are as you have described so adequately that it's like you receive them the invitation in a moment that you say yes a weight goes to your shoulder I think right so when the new year comes in and it's publicized on the other preciate Hampton it's like almost a death march you know every stop you ready for him tonight no I really wouldn't think about having exactly what you stop bringing up saying it's like a death march or something people are all kind of so I had a couple comments come therms Eames when he heard the news he called me said Frank do not be fooled by Hampton hmm Hampton loves content mm-hmm and you got content don't be fooled Hampton loves content content and you got content as you know Saturday night before Hampton you know you preach at your own church Sunday morning I had a Sara night servicing oh my son it's then you know sunrise service and then you go Monday night is the president's address and then if you're the morning preacher Tuesday morning you start so I was really kind of calm that's really calm up and down but friendly calm booth called me Charles every book caught me Saturday night all right I just wanted to tell you one thing so what is it tell me help me he says that they knew who you were when I invited yes Lord they didn't invite you to be anybody other than you then you so tuesday at hampton it was tuesday morning and i preached a sermon on naman and you in audience all right I remember you hauling the screen I know exactly exactly you anneal a flake lease it I got a you know that sermon is called see my change and I had had a particularly difficult time in Memphis you know in the pastor it you know we had lawsuit it was and so there I was I came down in a storm you know he dips than the first time he dips into water when he looks at himself no change you know six times at three times in the water six times in the water again on you six times no change no appreciate no change and he looked at himself should I go down to seventh time and he goes down the seventh time they see my change and it comes up on it at war up the skin like a baby see my change I was my testimony to see my change somewhere in that clothes I said like name and I don't know why the waters of Lake Michigan well enough I said God why do I need the waters not a muddy Mississippi I've been dipped and I went through that one time I came up seven times in a muddy Mississippi River and Memphis Tennessee see my change I lost it absolutely here we remember that day because we thought you were gonna shout and you will see what you did have a little shout but you would get hold and all that I've had I uh I dropped it cloud I'll exactly sure client says you through that iPad I just lost it because that was a great day that was just so really weak actually it was it was it was so real and the audience was just went crazy and I couldn't hear him because that was my testimony yeah that God had to dip me and the muddy Mississippi River I thought the waters of Lake Michigan were clear and beautiful and clean but no in that Mississippi River and look at my change look at what my life is now look what God is yeah so that was I I watch it it's on its own you to a sermon and I watch it sometimes and that is my favorite sermon I haven't preached it probably since then I haven't since then ya see my change okay look at look at what God has done from it you know so just my sense of it and of course everybody makes fun at iPad stuff in SSC if you throw your iPad under the inspiration of the Spirit you don't you don't break right when you clown it right you make it you have to make a trip right right it'll rip so of course when I got back to the back the greenroom as you know I've got the ring on to click on that up it either let's see thank you thanks all week was great it was it was yeah thank you for we did it together you you know we went on we went with Norma car Caryl Caryl Hendricks and John Henderson we went up to Alisha shallows a shallow Sholay's place right and has some retreat time is right yeah we appreciate that that was great it was great it wasn't great it was a great time and so the flip of that the converse of that the time that the Lord really used you what was one of your most difficult preaching moments challenging preaching moments the most difficult preaching mama challenged and was I told you that I was a pastor and a group filed a lawsuit against me in the church me and the church leadership and so it was done on a Monday afternoon so I get a phone call and there's a lawsuit Donnie with your name on with my name on it and so we got down there and got it and it had my name and I never then was at a church it was so honest so um it was devastating I mean it's absolutely devastating and so I'm the preacher for Sunday morning and what do I preach I said we know what I'm gonna do I'm gonna call dr. Gina my see us do it at a cobia preach no cuz I can't okay I mean I was I was out of it you know you're in shock first of all any when you come out of shock you go to depression I mean like we supposed to be Christians mm-hmm and then it was public which means people got copies of it and spread it the barbershops the newspapers the television stations it was every waiter I got called from people across the country that I heard from and I'll know when I call you all right yeah we heard about it right so I said well I can't duck out and bring in a guest so this one I'm gonna do I'm gonna preach he whitewashed tombs you workers of iniquity you know nobody saw sermons and then when they say you talking about I said no no we ain't talking about Jesus it's writing it to x-ray and so somewhere about Thursday or Friday I can't claim credit for what I think you would it was God the word came to me preach what you most deeply believe about the character of God mm-hmm so I tell preachers the more trouble you and priest to care what is that you preach the character of God what is it so I believe that God is a God of mercy so when you in a public scandal like that you know it has the feel of being in school and you know it's like there's gonna be a fight at 3:00 it's going down there through it right right so everybody hangs around the playground waiting for it to go down people who know them to go home don't go home they they hang all right they hang around so this is this is how it wasn't a church I mean it's just like okay everybody was there and one see what I'm gonna say what I'm gonna do Carolyn I flew down to be with me Martha Simmons flew and I gathered I love family together my wife my son and my daughter and I said um no matter what happens we gonna hold my head up the people don't have a right to our private pain anyway that right whatever happens you know I said we're gonna get through it I'm um so I preached that morning how God is so full of compassion we serve a merciful God I'm priest what I believe about the character of God it wasn't a good sermon I wish that uh the structure would have been better I wish that my clothes would have been tighter you know it was a hard clothes our clothes you know but it's an example of what I was saying is that sometimes you just you stand there on the Word of God and it says in season and out of season and I wish would have been better I wish I could have done better but I couldn't but by virtue of the fact that I stood there and off at the very best I thought God was pleased and I went home and lay down somewhere and took refuge with my family and so I think that was probably the most difficult preaching moment and I've seen a lot of preachers not just me I saw a preacher I was doing revival for a preacher in st. Louis and the daughter had an aneurysm and died last night I was waiting and picking up at the hotel never came hmm never came he rushed her out of the house next week he preached her funeral and she was sitting there in a casket so when he got underwent it up that pulpit I lost it they had a city in the face of death it's a steel proclaim yeah so I know that I'm not doing I know their preachers they do it a lot but you got to find it somewhere and there aren't appropriate times when you should increase you know if me and my wife for example were splitting up it might not be a good time to preach you know you know there could be things but I had to preach that Sunday right as the pastor I had to you know I have to stand nobody reminds me of that wonderful text where Absalom has died David is grieving and I think one of the generals comes in and say you're gonna grieve more for your son who betrayed you then you are for all these soldiers that have been faithful mm-hmm you need to sit up in that chair and with his heartbreaking grieving like crazy he sits there as the king Wow and that's where I haven't preached at yet yeah but I hear Sarah my nice coming out you know I know I'm saying creative reaching doctor Jesus through a sermon I said didn't you see me on tape I see and I was in a conversation [Laughter] somewhere but you know the victory often times is just in showing up and standing yeah it's not always what we say but the fact that God gives us the grace to even stand up and say anything is the victory C which also means it's not about the numbers it's not always about the crowd it's not about how many services all the trappings sometimes distract us yep yeah I can assure everybody listen to this date some Sundays you're gonna have to stand let me do another another for example give another example one so I went to a particularly difficult church meeting leaders meeting on him on a Thursday night and I knew I couldn't preach Sunday I was just I was too angry mm-hmm if I'd have said anything yeah I do I'm not a custom out right now just I mean just that so I called on staff was Eugene Gibson I called him on a Friday and say it um I can't pretty sunny anything to it mm-hmm to step in he said doc you're gonna beat it I said I'm gonna be there I just can't look at the people I don't know what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna sit right on that front row I looked at you and I said cuz I turn around and look behind me I'm I go berserk and it's gonna be ugly right and I got there sat on the front row he preached them off for this word preached tomorrow this word I got some help I got some healing and what I also sometimes say if we need to develop a team of people around us mm-hmm because there's some circumstance where we got to stand there and some like angry and bitter and ugly right then how do you cultivate people around you who can offer you a word right and glad to do it look and looking for the opportunity you know so just kind of a both and sometimes you really just have to stand but sometimes you have to stand down right and knowing when to do that it's critical and crucial right and I think if you're honest with yourself and honest with God gotta show you win insert the anger is probably one of those times we do need to sit yeah yeah yeah my password pastoring people is difficult yeah it can be challenging it to say the least yep yeah 306 no 52 Sundays a year more than ocean yeah so what else would you like to say that you'd like to conclude this conversation what's on your heart like for our viewers to know that the african-american precincts Edition is absolutely one of the most beautiful things in America and the world and that we have been given this tradition they are preachers in the 18th and 19th century if we go back and read some of those signs those folks were saying something you know and that we've been given this tree addition has been given to us so how do we preserve it how do we take care of it how do we archive it how do we bequeath it how do we treat it well how do we respect it how do we acknowledge that no preacher is bigger than a tradition that they come out of as greater preachers Martin King jr. was he's not greater than a tradition the tradition birthed em right you know we come out of the you know the the theological argument is that did God create ex nihilo or out of substance you know that right and we act like we're creating X nila when in fact this substance has been passed to us to shape and direct and form and you know I say for example C L Franklin had eagle stirreth Ernesto they got versions of eagle stirreth her nest back in the 1890s that sermon is floated in in the culture all this time now what he did with it was raw genius so I'm not dismissing his genius right because some other folks could preach that they don't you know right they don't come off and sound like right what he did but he added his genius to the tradition and so what I but I continue to work against is us getting up being ignorant of the traditions that's been passed on us passed to us we got some stuff that's been passed on to us through generations of our generation and if we don't honor it preserve it write about it talk about it and add our own flair ingenious to it so that the next generation right we'll take it and add theirs and so the tradition lives and the traditional is and so I say and that the african-american preaching tradition can generate a preaching Renaissance to revive American Christianity in the 21st century that's this and we know that American Christianity revival yes indeed and best of african-american preaching I mean when pray Thea Hall stood up and at Hampton a priest between a wilderness and a cliff have you heard there's something I need to download that into you and I'm super easy between us but I have read it I haven't heard it good because I read it it is a powerful message I read it in the african-american pulpit as a matter of fact yeah but hearing it I'm sure between a wilderness and a cliff how do we do ministry and she's not particularly as a woman we do ministry between a wilderness and the clipped Oh My Jesus pieces right they want to throw him off the cliff right garden the tailor steps out without his own clothes and you know he talks that how they crucified him and his own clothes he talks about they were being whipped and beat and they crucified him in his own clothes and he's coming back again it told you any better the truth than that and so we have this year Jerry this using sheer genius so Carol and I and we'll say I thank God for making me a black preacher right now yeah I think God for making me a preacher thank God for making and we have some of the most despicable racism hate animus has been directed against us but out of the midst of all that we have created this thing with God's help of beauty or some joining of the oral traditions of West Africa experience of slavery to generate a tradition of hope then is has save lives oh my God my god I tell you know you heard me say this time I'm not a hoofer but I love hooping when it's right and when it's right and the preacher done says and you just you know nothing like and I'm like it elevates you you can be at a funeral in despair yeah and the preacher eyes and when a preacher gets through you got the curse at least to get to the grave that's right when you didn't even know if you gonna get out the car right right great but but the preacher rises so I just think we have this great tradition and I'm trying to give the rest of my ministry to it that it would be preserved written about and which is the course of Genesis is some of the ph.d program it's just a marvelous marvelous marvelous thing and given given that I said that this would be the last question but you mentioned that having this opportunity privilege honor to direct the first african-american PhD in african-american preaching and sacred sacred rhetoric did you ever envision that this day would ever come what has it been like given now that the program is what into its going into his third yeah I believe we're going to our third year one of the things so the bottom line of it is God has allowed me to the 31 years as a pastor to take that pastoral experience with scholarship and writing and it converges into a point for the last years of my ministry where it all makes sense mm-hmm everything I went through to come to this place so I can handle it a pastoral side you know I've done it which is so important in our tradition oh you told my appreciate you ain't never been a pastor yes I have right I got a scholarship and a riding side I got published books and then so what sad you can kind of converging into this kind of role of a practitioner scholar and so I tell people like this that sometimes it takes to be 60 or late 50s by the time it all comes together but if you don't start looking for it mm-hmm when you're 25 you won't get there so I can look back over my entire ministry all folks got all kind I wouldn't I wouldn't take nothing from a journey you know they got all kind of wait you know every day with Jesus get sweet and sweet thang off of the heels and that it comes together for this moment and I'm thankful I am eternally grateful and another thing that I'll say about it is you can't hold onto it all mm-hmm I can't get here and not let go mm-hmm so I'm 60 something I got here and retirement is in the front of you yeah so I've got to let it go I've got to pass it on and so when you get there God and I think maybe God has something else beyond this you know you know I think maybe an archiving ministry without archive african-american sermons or you know do something completely different or it's connected but you know I mean I can't I can't hold on as a director of this program by the time that I'm here now and that's okay cuz I trust God and when you know we we we birth the vision into 13 and we so I did a series of meetings I invited 25 highlight issues and 213 to come and I opened up the idea they loved it the next year I invited 25 pastors Joe Ratliff Jim I write Walter Thomas a bunch of a president idea they loved it the third year I brought a group of pastors and politicians together and the question was could I get accreditation George or elephant I just talked about this so we didn't think that you will be able to get accreditation we just didn't think it credit Aysen is a hard thing let's go up God did it Donny and so from program now the first cohort that you're into the second cohort you know God has been doing it and so I am this is a strange thing but starting to get ready to let it go mm-hmm you know Shirley Prince used always say vision always I live the Visionaire all right now I appreciate that yeah and and you know it connected to that as it's too much work mm-hmm to hold on and kill it brain many lives so you know we have us pastors we all hang on and kill it maybe it's true and I love it it's too much working I love you too much to to do that so I'm gonna I'm gonna release it it's it's it's coming I can't say exactly when but it won't be long because um I'm gonna go to the beach play with August play with all this I think I said what you they gonna tell me like stuff like um which you turn down the ocean we can't hear your Lexi I'm Alexa from the beach me and August give me a few minutes let me back this certain it's certainly an enduring legacy well thank you that's trying to serve I just really I mean that I mean that it doesn't make it appear if something happened with this thing has been God because I was just trying to have I'm just trying to be faithful you

Channel: Frank Thomas

Views: 7,416

Rating: 4.8809524 out of 5

Keywords: Black Preaching, African American Preaching, PhD Black Preaching, PhD African American Preaching, Preaching, Homiletics, Frank A. Thomas, Dr. Frank A. Thomas, Frank Thomas, Christian Theological Seminary, Academy of Preaching and Celebration, Celebration, They Like to never Quit Praisin' God

Id: CCYkICe-Ick

Length: 60min 15sec (3615 seconds)

Published: Wed Dec 04 2019