CREW: December the 5th, 1998. We are interview the
survivor Louis Pechi. Hilary Helstein, interviewer. We are in Westlake
Village, California, USA. It will be in English. INT: Today is December 5, 1998. My name is Hilary Helstein. I am interviewing Louis Pechi. We're conducting this
interview in Westlake Village, California, in the
United States of America, in the English language. Can you please tell me your
name now, your name at birth, if it was different,
and spell your names? LP: OK. INT: And any other
names you've had. LP: OK. My name right now is Louis
Lubo, L-U-B-O, Pechi. But I was born Ljubomir Pechi. And that is spelled
L-J-U-B-O-M-I-R. And then P-E-C, with a little
hook on top, I. P-E-C-I. INT: How do you spell Pechi now? LP: Now, today, I
spell Pechi P-E-C-H-I. I added the H when I
got my citizenship. INT: Do you have
any other names, or have you had any other names? LP: During-- during the
war, I've had several names. I had a-- I was-- a lady that--
that smuggled me across the border
from Croatia to Italy, her name was Milica Miller. And I went on her
passport as Vlado Miller. So during that short period of
time, my name was Vlado Miller. Then during the
time in Italy, when we were hiding from
the Germans, we were able to obtain passports
and-- and identifications. And my name was Benjamino
Bellini, which is very Italian. And it's spelled B-E-N-J-- Beni-- I-A-M-I-N-O.
Bellini, B-E-L-L-I-N-I. INT: What is your birth date? LP: My birth date
is August 10, 1934. INT: How old are you today? LP: Today, I'm 64 years old. INT: Tell me the city and
country you were born in. LP: I was born in
Zagreb, Yugoslavia. And Zagreb is in-- now it's in Croatia, the
new State of Croatia. INT: I want to talk about
your life as a little boy. Tell me about your parents. Tell me their names. LP: My-- my parents,
my mother's name was Piroska or [? Pirika. ?] We
used to call her [? Pirika. ?] And my dad's name
was Stjepan Peci. INT: What was your
mother's maiden name? LP: Sidon. S-I-D-O-N. And my father was
Stjepan, S-T-J-E-P-A-N. Stefan, basically. And but we-- his nickname
was [? Pischta. ?] And he was a import-export-- he had a business of his own,
an import-export business. And we lived in Zagreb, in
a very nice apartment on-- [NON-ENGLISH] Street,
fairly close to the center of the town, and had
a very happy life. I-- I had a rocking
horse on the balcony, and I used to write
that all the time. And I loved trains. My dad always bought
me all kinds of toys. He did travel to
Germany and Italy a lot, and he would buy toys. And always, whenever he came
back, he had something for me. I-- we had a maid that stayed-- stayed with us in a small room. And I also had a governess
who came every morning and took me-- took
me out to the park. She was-- INT: Do you remember
their names? Do you-- LP: I don't remember the
name of the governess, but I remember her very well. Because she was
Austrian and very-- very strict. She believed in
disciplining the kids. And I don't know if
you want to talk-- want me to talk about some
incidents with her, but-- INT: In what time period? LP: This was when I was
about four or five years old. But she used to
take me to the park. And she would like to meet
her boyfriend in the park. And the park was very
close to the house. And I had to use the bathroom. And I told her, I have
to go to the bathroom. She says, no, no. I have to wait for my boyfriend. [LAUGHS] And so needless to
say, being that small, I ended up making in my pants. Well, that upset her
very much, and she-- she used to-- she used
to hit me quite often, but I never complained,
because that wasn't-- I kind of assumed that
was the normal operation. But then when she took me
home, she-- first of all, she beat me inside a--
a entrance to the house, so nobody would see it. And then she-- when she
brought me home, she put me in a-- in a bathtub with
water, with all my clothes, with all this stuff. Well, that's what
really upset me. And I told my parents. And that's when she got fired. So I don't know how
important that is, really-- [LAUGHS] just a story. INT: What was her relationship
with your parents? LP: She was an employee. She was a-- she was a
governess, basically. She was employed by my parents. My parents were well-off. INT: What was her religion? What was her
religious background? LP: She was-- she was Catholic. And-- and I don't know
whether she hated Jews or not, but she-- she wasn't-- she-- I think it was her belief that
that's how you raise kids, with discipline. So. INT: What did your mother do? LP: My mother did not work. She was-- she was a housewife. And at that time, she was pretty
active in-- in her friends and parties. And I-- she did-- I don't even
remember her cooking. I don't know. The maid was always the
one that would cook, and I'd sometimes
eat in the kitchen. We had the family over many
times for holidays, and they-- my-- the rest of
the family lived in Belgrade, my-- her
brother and her father. INT: What were their names? LP: Her father was a-- a-- gee, I don't even
know what his name was. [NON-ENGLISH]. I called him [NON-ENGLISH],,
which in Hungarian means grandfather. And [? Ladsi ?] was one
of my uncles and Mark. Well, [? Ladsi ?] was Ladislav,
but we called him [? Ladsi. ?] Mark was [? Martsi. ?] And they used to come, and
my cousin used to come. And we-- we used to
have a lot of people. I remember always having
a houseful of-- of friends for dinner, and
we'd sit and talk and play cards or whatever. And the kids used to play under
the table and with soldiers. And-- and I remember my cousin
always playing with him. He was a few years
older than me. INT: Which cousin was this? LP: This was my-- [? Ladsi's ?] son. His name was Fred, but
we called him [? Bubi. ?] We all had nicknames. [LAUGHS] And-- INT: What was your nickname? LP: My name was-- instead of Ljubomir,
they called me Ljubo, or Ljubchek,
or Ljubo, which was diminutive of-- of Ljubo. Ljubomir. INT: Do you remember
any of the grandparents? LP: My-- I remember
my-- my mother's father, because she lost her mother
when she was 12 years old. So I never met her. But my-- my father's parents-- and again, I called her Omama. I don't even know
what her name is-- [LAUGHS] And [? Otata, ?]
which was grandfather. My father's-- my grandfather
from the father's side, was employed by the railroad. He was a machinist
for the railroad, and he was always very,
very serious individual. But my grandmother
from my father's side was a short, stock-- a little bit-- a stocky
woman that loved to cook. I still can remember the--
the smells of the kitchen, and-- and I can still see her-- her hands with the-- with
the yellow mark-- you know, the marks. I don't know what-- what you
call it, the brown marks. But I loved-- and I
loved to-- to go to the-- to-- to visit them,
because there was always something good to eat,
and it was always warm. And-- and she just-- just always hugged me and--
and-- and just loved-- loved me to death. And she spoke-- she
spoke Hungarian. Most of my family
spoke Hungarian too. And she spoke Hungarian. INT: How did you communicate
with your parents, in what language? LP: In-- in Croatian. INT: Was there any other
languages you spoke? LP: As a child, I spoke German,
from the German governess. Because she-- she
spoke German to me. And then I used to go-- when
I was a little bit older, I went to a Montessori
kindergarten. And there were two branches. One was French, and
one was English. And I went to the
English kindergarten. And I remember-- I
remember going there, and I remember all
the-- all the toys that were very manipulative. You had to work them with
your hands, lacing things. And-- and I remember,
I had my symbol for where I hung my
coat was a little mouse. And I-- I loved to go there,
because there was always something to do. And I learned to read, and-- and-- and speak English. And everybody was very proud
of me speaking English. INT: Tell me what other memories
you have of your parents as a young child? What kind of people were they? LP: My father was
always very loving, a very loving individual. He just-- he just
adored me, you know? And-- and-- and I-- he had
an office in the house, because he was in
business for himself. And I-- I remember sitting at
the typewriter, and, you know, using-- that's how I-- I learned to type
before I could write. Because I'd just play with
the-- with the typewriter. And I started writing
on it, because I recognized the letters. But he always-- he
always brought me-- brought me toys
and-- and-- and-- and would play with me, and
whatever I-- whatever I-- my interests were, he would--
he would be very supportive. My mom, on the other
hand, took me-- I remember very well-- a
trip to the coast of France for a vacation, and we
stayed about a month. And then we stayed
a little bit longer, because she ended up going
gambling in one of the casinos. And she's always had tremendous
luck on-- on any game, card games or-- so she won a lot of money,
and we stayed longer. We used the money to stay. And I remember going
to the beach with her. And she was a-- she was a-- as a
young-- young woman, she was a champion
diver and swimmer. And so we had a lot of fun
in the ocean and swimming. She taught me how to swim. And-- and we always had
a good time with her. But I was-- I was pretty much involved,
you know, in-- in my games, in my plays. And we had some friends. I remember going
over to some friends. And my mom took me
skiing with my dad. We went skiing. So I was-- I went skiing as
a-- as a young-- young child. It was a very, very
happy life, very, very-- INT: Do you have any siblings? LP: No. I-- I was the only
child at that time. INT: What was the
relationship between the different religious
backgrounds in Yugoslavia at that time? LP: We were-- we
were not religious. My father was not religious. My mother was not
religious, even though she-- she mentioned to me that my
grandfather used to put the-- the tefillin and--
and pray every-- every morning. So my grandfather, my mother's
grandfather, was religious. I don't know much about
my father's grandfather, but I assume-- later on, I-- I did find that
he used to go to the synagogue regularly. So he will-- he-- I assume he was also religious. INT: How often did your
family attend synagogue? LP: I don't remember
attending synagogue at all, although there
was one in Zagreb, very close to the main square. It was about a block-- not even
a block away, a couple of-- a couple of buildings away. It does not exist anymore. It was totally destroyed. And I-- I think it's
an empty lot right now. And-- but we had-- we had more-- it was more social
activities, rather than-- than
religious activities. So for Purim, I remember,
my-- my idol was Popeye. I loved Popeye. And-- because he ate
spinach, and he was strong. And so I ate spinach, hoping
that I would be strong too. And I remember getting dressed
once as-- as Popeye and-- and going to that activity. I think there were-- there were synagogue activities
for the kids and-- and more social activities. I think the community
in-- in Zagreb was pretty much not
assimilated, but they were-- they were not really religious. They did go-- I know my father
went for the high holidays. I think he went
to the synagogue. INT: Tell me what holidays
you remember at home. You mentioned a lot of
family would come over. Tell me what was special
about the holidays. LP: Well, the special
thing was that-- [PAUSES FOR 4
SECONDS] I don't even know if they were
holidays or what. But I-- I remember gathering. And we-- we had a-- a
living room that was very, very light and-- and had a big table. And I remember people
sitting around it. And-- and obviously,
we would-- we-- the kids would be
playing in another room, but we would come
and join them, and-- and it was-- it was warm
and-- and festive and light. And-- and food kept
coming from the kitchen. And it was a-- it was a very, very warm
feeling in the house. I also remember, when we
didn't have people over, I always played
with the toy trains. And-- and I would
set up an electric train all the way
from the kitchen. I had enough railroad tracks
to set it up from the kitchen all the way to the-- to
the dining room area. And I was saying, I'll send you
the sugar by train, to my mom, from the kitchen to the
[LAUGHS] dining room. And you know, we just-- I just had-- enjoyed-- enjoying myself
as a-- as a child. INT: What was the Jewish
population in Zagreb at the time? LP: I really don't know for
sure what-- what it was. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] I
don't know what the-- what-- what the population was. We had a group of friends that-- that-- that I know were Jewish. I remember some-- some of
them, Anika and Milan Weber, they were close friends. They ended up with us in Italy
later on, during the war. And I think my mom had
another friend, Pavlinovic. Even some of the names became
very much Croatian or Yugoslav. The distinction was-- was-- we knew we were Jewish,
but we weren't-- we weren't religious. We weren't totally isolated. We-- the apartment that we lived
in, I know there was a family, our family. And then on the
fourth floor, there was another Jewish family. INT: How many families in
total were in the apartment? LP: In the apartment? Probably 10, 10 to 12 families. INT: What was the relationship
between the non-Jewish families and the Jewish? LP: There was no
real distinction. I know I had a
friend, Gergijevic. He was-- they were Serbian. He was a-- his
father was a lawyer. And we were-- we were friends. I mean, we were
children friends. I don't think
there was a-- there was a distinction, as such. Might have been an undercurrent
of-- of antisemitism, but I was not aware of it. I didn't-- that was not
something that I was concerned with. INT: Do you recall
knowing about any of the events that
were happening in Europe around 1939? LP: My father-- my father was-- was much more aware of it. And again, some of the
stories I heard after, you know, after
the war or during-- during the war. But being in the
export-import business, I know they were
all starting to-- people were starting to
show up, Polish people, and-- and people from Germany. They were starting to show
up in-- in Yugoslavia. And I know that he was
helping quite a few of them. INT: In what way? LP: By giving them money or
by-- by finding accommodations for them. Some of them didn't-- he-- he-- he was helping
them in-- in financially too. You know, and--
and places to stay and arranging places to stay. But it was-- it wasn't
organized, anything organized. It was just-- I don't know how-- how it came about, but I know
he was-- he was helping him. INT: Did you meet
any of these people? LP: I don't remember. I might have met 'em, but I-- I probably didn't
pay attention to it. I was only five or six
years old at the time. INT: What else do you
remember from that time? [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] Do you
recall your parents talking about the problem with-- the Jewish problem and-- and
perhaps what could be done? LP: No. Not at that-- not at
that point at all. And again, I-- even if
they did, I wouldn't have-- I wouldn't have paid
attention to it. I was only six years old. I-- I had my own world,
and-- and I just didn't-- wasn't aware with. We were very well--
we were well-off. My father had a car, which
was, you know, which was-- we were a middle, upper
middle class family. We used to go to the--
to the beach, you know, every summer, like the
habit in-- in Europe. And we went skiing
in the winter. And just-- we-- we-- we had a
very, very comfortable life, with-- with basically
no major problems. My father was very prosperous,
because the Germans were infiltrating Yugoslavia. And so he had a lot
of business, not even realizing that that was-- that was business that they
were starting to bring-- bring things in Yugoslavia,
so they could-- they could take
over the country. There was like a fifth column
all throughout Yugoslavia. So he was-- he was doing well. He was earning good
money and prospering. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
So we didn't-- really, from what I know, I
remember, there were no-- no problems of oppression
or-- or prejudice or-- that I know of. At least I didn't
encounter that. INT: When do you first remember
things beginning to change? And in what way? LP: Well, the first-- first things that begin
to change, I can-- I can pinpoint to the date. Because it was April 6,
or Palm Sunday, 1941. We were visiting-- I think it was the Easter
holiday or something. I don't remember exactly. But we were visiting my uncle
and my grandfather in Belgrade. And [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
it was like 6 o'clock in the morning. Being the young one, I-- I woke up earlier,
because I heard-- I heard-- I heard explosions. And we stayed at
their apartment. My mom-- my father
wasn't with us. It was just my mom and
myself, and my Uncle Larry, [? Ladsi, ?] and Mark,
and my grandfather. And I heard the-- I heard explosions, and I ran-- ran out to the balcony. And I looked up,
and there were-- there were airplanes
all over the place. Well, being six or
seven years old, I was all excited
to see the planes. So I ran back in, and I woke
up my uncle, and I said, look! They're all-- these planes out
there, you know, I was all-- I was all excited about it. So we all went-- everybody woke up, and we
went out to the balcony, and we started looking. And we saw that the planes
had the German cross and the swastikas, and-- and
they were dropping bombs. And so my uncle, who was
an officer in the army, he says, we better get
down to the cellar. And so we were in pajamas. You know, we'd just
put the robes on. And we were going to
take the elevator down. We went for the elevator. And he says, no, no, no, no, no. You're not supposed
to take the elevator. So we-- that's what I remember. And so we walked
down into the cellar. Well, by the time we got
there, the whole building was already there. It was the coal cellar for
heating the-- the house. And by that time, the explosions
got closer and closer. And we stayed-- we stayed
there almost a whole day. And I remember, I-- I finally said, I have
to use the bathroom. And so my uncle says,
fine, I'll take you. So he took me on the
outside, because there were no-- no-- no facilities
in the-- in the cellar. And by that time,
things calmed down. And I remember looking
across the street, and there was a building
that was halfway torn. You could see beds coming
out of the-- out of the-- you know, I mean, you could
see that the whole side apart. And there were horses. I remember seeing horses
dead on the street. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And so then we went
to the apartment. We obviously got dressed. And-- and my uncle had a friend
that had a house somewhere on the outskirts of the town. And I remember going-- moving-- we moved to that house. And for some
reason, I don't know what they did, but they--
it was all illuminated with red lights, so that I
guess the belief was that they would think that it's burning. I-- I-- and again, this is--
this is what I remember. I just remember the red lights. Well, my uncle had orders to
report to the-- to his unit, because he was in reserve. So he put on his uniform,
and he says, I have to leave. But you should try
and get-- and we decided we should try get--
to get back to Zagreb. So after a few days,
things calmed down. My uncle joined the-- I guess went back-- went to his unit, which
he never made it, made-- he never made it to his unit,
because the Germans occupied-- I mean, they--
they arrested him. And he spent-- he
spent his whole war-- war-- war days in
a concentration-- not a concentration camp,
in a prisoner-of-war camp, with the Serbian officers. He was an officer
in the Serbian Army. And that's-- that's
how he was saved. But he was in a
prisoner-of-war camp. INT: How did that-- that
day in Belgrade impact you? LP: It's-- [SIGHS] to me,
it seemed more like a game. It-- it-- I-- I
did not comprehend. I mean, I-- I knew. I could sense from the-- from my folks and my
uncle that the feelings. But-- but for me,
it was exciting. It was, you know,
airplanes, bombs. I-- I did not comprehend. I don't think I
understood what-- what it was. For me, it was-- it
was a-- an adventure. INT: And where was your
father at this time? LP: My father was in Zagreb. And again, this is
from-- from his-- he also was in the reserve. And I think he had to
report to his unit. But I think he-- he never-- he never did. He just started going, and
then he realized it's not-- it's not worth it. And whether it's true
or not, I don't-- I don't know, but he had a-- as I said, he had a car. And my father was-- was-- he was a very mild man,
but he had this-- this-- this-- this streak in him, that--
that he could-- he could-- at least that's my
feeling-- he could-- he could be very, very
mean and very, very strong. And what he-- he
said that he-- he was supposed to turn his
car into the Germans, and he just wasn't
going to do it. And he drove it up a cliff and
turned the motor on and let it go down, down the cliff. So rather than turn it in, he--
he just let it destroy itself. That was the kind of person
that I remember him as being. INT: Had-- LP: So he was not with us. He was in Zagreb. INT: Had the relationship
changed between the Jews and non-Jews at that time? LP: Not-- well, [SIGHS] let
me-- let me tell you about that. Because-- because
you'll-- you'll-- I think-- I think as--
as the story unfolds. So we decided to go from
Belgrade back to Zagreb. And obviously, everybody
was going every place. People from Zagreb
were going to Belgrade. People from Belgrade-- so--
so the railroad stations were just mobbed with
people going someplace. And I remember us
finding a train that was going towards Zagreb. And I remember that my-- my
uncle throwing me through the window in, so
that I could get-- so I could get a seat for them. And I saved them the seat. And-- INT: OK. Let's stop now and change tapes. LP: OK. LP: So I saved the seats for
everybody, and we piled in. And the train finally took
off, just totally mobbed, people hanging out
on the-- on the-- oh, actually on the-- on
the railing just to-- just to get-- keep going. And the train went
to not that far-- about maybe even an hour
or two hours' ride-- to a town called Ruma,
which is a small, provincial Serbian town,
and said that the tracks are destroyed; the train
cannot go any further. So here we were in Ruma,
my mother and myself, and with the rucksacks
on-- on our backs. And where do we go from here? INT: Who else was with you? LP: It was, from
what I remember, just my mother and myself. And my mother
remembered that she-- we had some friends in Ruma-- Jewish-- Jewish friends. And their name was Kowders-- Kowders. And so we went to their house. And yes, they were home. And they said, no, but we're
happy to have you stay here. And [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] that evening-- that evening you could see
in this small provincial town in Serbia, they were-- there were people with
leather jackets, with-- with the swastikas on their
arms, and hunting rifles. That was the fifth column
that infiltrated it. And they basically
occupied already, were-- occupied the-- this town Ruma. They were the underground
that lived there, the German underground-- the fifth column,
actually, not underground. I'm sorry. And the man of the house--
and I can't remember his name. But they came. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
I think they-- they beat him up on the streets. And he was able to run away. And I remember him showing
up with a bloody nose, you know, blood running
through his nose. And he ended up hiding
in the dog house. And-- and these men came to the
door, and they were looking. And we said, no, we
don't know where he-- he was-- didn't come here. He must have run to the
woods or something like that. And they didn't-- obviously
didn't search their house. But they-- they were
trying to catch him. And that was only-- only like,
I would say, no more than a week after the bombing. So the Germans
just, by that time, occupied Serbia and
Croatia, and the whole-- whole of Yugoslavia. So we stayed there
over the night, and we decided we'd
better get out of here. And so we found another
train going someplace else. And-- and somehow we got-- got to Zagreb. I remember riding in a-- in a
freight train, in the caboose, you know. And then we walked. The-- the section that
was destroyed, we walked. But it took us-- I think it took us about a
week to get from Belgrade to-- to Zagreb. When we got to
Zagreb, we obviously went to our-- to our apartment. And the maid came to the door. And she says-- she
says, I'm sorry. She said, I-- I-- there are two German
soldiers in the house. I couldn't-- I
couldn't, you know, I couldn't do anything about it. She was-- she felt bad
that she had to, you know, let strangers in the house. And-- INT: How long had
they been there? LP: They'd been there for-- for-- for a day or two, or I-- I don't know-- I don't
know exactly how long. But they were-- INT: Why were they there? LP: They were billeted there. And so my mother
spoke perfect German. She was educated in--
in finishing school in-- in Austria. So-- in Vienna. So we started talking. I mean, she talked to them. And they said, look, don't--
don't be afraid of us. We-- we're just passing through. We're going through to the-- to
the-- to the front in Greece. Here are our children, you know. We're-- we're just--
we're just soldiers. Don't-- don't worry
about anything. And my mother was petrified. I mean, she was pretty young. She's only 20 years
older than me. So she was-- she
was a young woman. Never had anybody-- any
stranger in a house. And she was petrified. So anyway, they
slept in our bedroom. We slept in the--
in the back room. INT: What do you remember
going through your mind when these Germans
were in your house? LP: I was fascinated. [LAUGHS] They were
soldiers, you know, to me. And I was always fascinated,
you know, with the-- I was, as a-- as a young child, I was
friendly with the policeman on the corner, and, you
know, that directed traffic. He was my-- I called him kolega. And whenever I went there, I-- I salute him and
says, Zdravo, kolega! You know. And he would always
go like this. So I was fascinated by
these-- by these men and their equipment, and
their-- their-- what they-- what they had, you know,
the boots that they wore. And to me, it was a-- to me it was very interesting;
very very, exciting. And they eventually
did leave, and-- and leave the-- the apartment. INT: And where was your father? LP: Where was my father? I think he was
still coming back. He wasn't there at the time. But he did come eventually back. But I think he came back
after the Germans were gone. INT: Just tell me what
happened after that. LP: OK. After that it's--
it's a little bit-- it's a little bit confusing
again-- not confusing. I mean, I don't remember. But from the stories, and
from-- from, you know, reconstructing it later
on, my parents decided to-- realized what was going on. And I think my father was pretty
much aware what was going on. But [PAUSES FOR
3 SECONDS] they-- oh, no. I know how it--
what-- what happened. We had to start wearing-- all the Jews had to
start wearing signs with the [SERBIAN],,
which-- which is a Z with a little
V on top of the Z. And that meant [SERBIAN],,
which meant Jew. And-- INT: And what-- how-- how-- what did it look like? Can you describe it? It-- LP: It's-- it's a round-- round circle. And I have-- my mother
saved-- saved it. It's a round,
yellow, metal circle, with yellow with the black
letter Z, and a hook on it. And all the Jews had to wear it. And-- INT: Did children
have to wear it? LP: Children did not have
to wear it, just-- just the adults. And my-- my father's
grandmother, I remember, she called it the [SERBIAN],,
which was 'the little'-- 'the little sign.' And-- and she was always
worried that-- that it shows, and-- and that it's just--
just worn the right way. And then they started
arresting-- arresting the men. The first people that they
took were the able-bodied men. And-- INT: What-- what year
and what time of year? LP: [SIGHS] I don't remember
what-- what time of the year. But it was in 1941,
probably toward-- toward the fall--
toward the fall of 1941. It didn't take too long. It was like three, four months
after the war broke out. And they arrested my father. And they-- they put them-- they put the people that
they arrested in a-- in a gym of a--
of a high school. They held them there. And my mother was-- was petrified. She-- she tried to figure
out how she can get him out. And so she went to a friend of
my father-- business friend, actually-- that was connected with him
with the export-import business. And she said, you
just have to help me. And he said that-- to her-- and again, this
is-- this is stories that-- that she told me. And he said to her, I
will help you this time, but after this,
I don't know you. I never had any
relationship with you. I-- you-- you disappear. You make yourself disappear,
you and your family. Don't stay around. Just disappear. And so he wrote a
letter, a note saying that he needs my father to bring
something through the customs. And so she went with
this letter to the-- to the police, and said,
we need to get him out because he needs
to assist this man. INT: What was this man's name? LP: I don't know. I don't know what his name is. So they let my father out. And that-- we moved from
our apartment at that time. And we moved to where my-- my grandfather lived, which was
on the other side of the town. And we stayed in one of the
rooms, that-- extra rooms that they had. INT: Which grandfather? LP: My father's father. My-- by that time my-- my
grandfather-- my mother's grandfather was still in
Belgrade at that time. But I think sometime in that
period he came also to-- to-- to Zagreb. And he stayed with my-- he stayed with us too. And so we tried
to find out a way. My parents tried to find out
a way how they can get out of there, because-- because
he knew that, I mean, my mother said we
have to get out. We just have to disappear. A friend of ours, Slavko
Brenner, [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] who was single, found
a way to get out. And-- and he was gone about a-- maybe a month before we left. And he was in Italy,
in-- in-- in Treviso. And he wrote to us. And he says, if you
get a certificate that you're a Catholic,
you can stay in Italy and be interned in Italy. So what we did is my
parents went and-- to the church, and said, we
want to convert to Catholic. Who cares? You know, they
weren't very religious anyway, and-- and a piece of
paper wouldn't have mattered. And so we went-- they went, and they
converted to Catholic. INT: What about you? LP: I-- they waited
to convert me the next day so that my
papers, when-- when they were published, said, father and
mother Catholic, because they were always looking at
the-- at-- the Germans were looking at the
parents who, you know, if the parents were
Jewish, you were Jewish. If the parents were mixed,
you were mixed, you know, and so on. So. So we-- so I converted
the next day. So my certificate said,
father and mother Catholic. And I-- I remember
going to that church, and-- and going through
the conversion, and-- and, you know, they
anointed me with the oil, and then they gave
me some salt. And I thought it was sugar, [LAUGHS]
you know, being a kid. And I took this big gulp of
it, you know, and realized it-- it's-- it's-- it's salt. But anyway, I-- so now
I had a certificate that I was Catholic. And being blond and blue-eyed,
I didn't, you know, I-- I-- I look Catholic. I mean, didn't-- I
didn't look different. And so my parents sold
whatever they could sell, converted all the
money into gold. They hid-- they hid the
gold coins in the heel-- heels of their shoes. They would take the bottoms off
and carve out the-- the center, put the gold coins in,
and then put wax in there so they wouldn't rattle,
and then put the sole on it. And they had dollar
bills sewn in their-- in their-- in their coats. And wherever they could put--
whatever we could carry, my mother carried all
her jewelry with her. And the story that she tells
me is the way they-- they-- first they went to-- to cross the border, but
they got turned around. And they said that the--
that the soldiers tell her-- told her that they're going to
take them to [? Bukarita-- ?] [? Bukarita. ?] They didn't
know what [? Bukarita ?] was, but it was a-- it was a
concentration camp, actually-- on a-- on an island. And-- but then
somehow they got-- they got-- they let them go. And they hired a man in
Fiume, which was just-- Fiume, Rijeka, and
Fiume was Italian part, and Rijeka was a Croatian part
of the city divided halfway through. And they hired this man to-- in a rowboat. I was-- at that time it was-- she said it was summer. And so this man rowed
them out to the ocean. And then he came back. And my mother said, here
I was sitting in a boat with-- with a-- with a fur
coat with all the jewelries. And I'm shivering. And it's-- it's hot. But anyway, he
drove her-- he-- he rowed them out and then
drove them back in. And then once they
were in Italy, they went to
Treviso, which was-- INT: Where-- where
were you at the time? LP: I stayed-- I stayed with my-- with my grandmother in Zagreb. And my grandfather
wouldn't go with my mom. He said, I never hurt anybody. I-- there's nothing. The Germans. Why-- I don't-- I
don't have to run away. INT: What was the tone
of the city at that time? What do you remember it being? LP: I remember it
being very, very-- as a kid, I remember
it being very-- maybe that was the way I
interpreted the feeling. But it was very almost
rainy, dark, subdued. And-- and-- and-- and I-- I sensed that there
was a lot of danger. At that point, I
realized there was-- there was-- something was
happening, and-- and some of it I couldn't understand, you know. Why did we have to move? Why did I have to
leave my horse behind? And why did, you know-- it was a wooden horse. It wasn't a real horse. And-- and why did we have
to live with my grandmother? But then on the other hand,
I enjoyed it, because she-- her kitchen was warm. She was warm. And I-- I loved going there. So in that respect it was-- I-- it was-- it was a
mixture of feelings. INT: Do you recall
witnessing any acts of blatant antisemitism? LP: Well, the-- the--
this-- the-- the signs. Yeah. INT: What did the signs say? LP: The-- the signs
that you had to wear. And we stayed-- I-- I remember staying
mostly indoors. We-- we kind of-- we kind of didn't go out. We went out as little as
possible, so that we-- we didn't stand out. And maybe that's was--
that was a good way of-- of avoiding trouble. You know, we went out
shopping when we had to shop. But again, you had to shop
with the-- with the sign on it. And I-- I don't really
recall, except that I-- I did sense something was wrong. INT: Do you recall any food
shortages, or any restrictions, or any-- in any other ways that
your life was suddenly changed? LP: There were no food
shortages at that time. As I said, my-- my parents were
well off, so they were able-- in the early part, early
times of the war, it was-- food was available. Later on, I know, there were-- there was rationing,
and-- and-- and you had to worry about
getting the food. But at the first-- first part of the war,
that was still available. And the-- the local
peasants still came out with--
with their wares. And there was a market every-- once a week, or
every-- as a matter of fact, every day
you could go off and-- and buy stuff
on the market. So then I-- I stayed with my-- I stayed with my
grandmother, and till they could make arrangements for
me to take a train to a town. Again, it's a provincial
town halfway between-- between Belgrade and-- and
Zagreb called Slavonski Brod. Its on River Sava. And 'Brod' means boat, but
Salvonian, Slavonia, Slavonski means Slavonian. And on the other
side was Bosanski, which was the Bosnian Brod. And Slavonski Brod was all
basically a Croatian town. The Bosnian was
very Muslim, very-- with the-- with
the mosques, and-- and people mostly wearing
their native costumes. So-- INT: How-- how did Muslim-- Muslims play into this? LP: I didn't have much
contact with the Muslims. We hardly crossed
the-- the river to go to the Muslim
side at that time. But I know that the Muslims-- the Croatians were
catering to the Muslims, because the-- the square
that way-- where we-- were we lived very close
to that-- this main square, which changed names, as-- as-- as the regimes changed, they
actually built a mosque. Used to be a museum. It was a round building
in the center-- kind of in the center of the
town, one of the squares. And it had a museum. And they, during the war,
they erected three minarets-- tall, tall towers on each side. And this was in
Zagreb, which is-- doesn't-- doesn't-- I don't know-- I don't know
the Muslim population there. And they turned
them into a mosque. Obviously, after
the war, they-- they tore down the--
the-- the minarets, and converted it
back to a museum. INT: And what was their
role during the war? I mean, how were--
how were they treated, and what was their
relationship with the Jews? LP: Again, [SIGHS] it's-- I-- it's very hard to say. It's very hard to say
about the-- about the-- about saying the Muslims,
the Germans, the Croatians. How can you-- you know. I mean, they were people. There were good people,
there were bad people. We were lucky. We met good people. We met good Muslim people
that hid my parents-- my dad's my-- my grandfather
from my dad's side, and three sisters that he
had, and my grandmother. They hid them throughout the
war outside somewhere in-- close to Sarajevo. They lived in a little-- little village. Now they, see, they
didn't have much money. So I am sure that they didn't-- they didn't have any-- any
means to compensate them. And that's how they
survived the war. They basically lived--
lived with the-- with the Muslims. So [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] I'm-- I'm lucky. I met good people. INT: So you-- you were telling
me that you had gone to Brod. LP: So I was shipped to
Brod with my certificate that I was Catholic. My aunt, who married a local
tailor who was Catholic, lived there for many years. She had 14-year-old kids--
my cousin Greta and Hanzi. He was-- And they-- they
lived as Catholic. They were brought
up as Catholic. My-- my aunt never talked
about being Jewish, you know. INT: What was your aunt's name. LP: Her name was Babushka. And that's what I remember. But I think her name was Elsa
Kierhoffer, the-- the official name. And--
INT: And your uncle? LP: --and my uncle was
[? Stefko. ?] I called him [? Stefko, ?] but
it would be Steven. We all-- we all had
diminutive names. I don't know why, but that's-- that was kind of
a-- seemed like-- be a trend in the family. Anyway, he was a local tailor. He had a tailor shop
right on the main square of this little town. And-- and I ended
up living with them. I was enrolled in-- in
school, in first grade. By that time I was
ready for first grade. And I went to school regularly. And I went to catechism. The schools, by the
way, were Catholic. They were run-- the-- the-- the official--
the government schools were all Catholic. It was-- it was-- Croatia was Catholic. INT: Did anybody
know you were Jewish? LP: No. No. I kept that a secret. And I remember in the class we
had Jewish kids in the class. And-- INT: How did you know
they were Jewish? LP: I knew they were Jewish,
because during catechism they had to get up and
stand against the wall. So they didn't kick them
out of the classroom, but they had to-- they were not part of
the group, but yet they had to stay there and listen. And-- INT: Did you understand during-- during catechism? LP: I understood. I understood at that point. But I knew, you know,
I knew that if I-- if I said anything, I didn't
want to stand against the wall. You know, that-- it's not. I-- I just-- I just knew what was going on. I-- I knew-- at that
point I understood. And I understood that I-- I could not say that-- that I'm-- I'm Jewish. INT: How were you able to
play out being a Catholic? LP: I got-- I got
on with the program. I went to catechism, you know. We had classes in the
afternoon close to the house. And I remember going there. And then I learned
all about the-- the-- the whole-- the
whole religious-- religion, and-- and what I had to do. And there were-- I was getting ready for
the first communion. I went to church every Sunday. And all throughout
that whole thing, there were-- there were
some-- some very interesting incidents. I mean there-- there was
humor in-- in a lot of it. I did go to the communion. And I remember the--
the priest saying, now you-- you
should-- not supposed to chew on the Holy Ghost,
you know, on the Holy Wafer. You're supposed to
let it melt, you know, in your-- in your mouth. And I remember sitting there
with my tongue out, you know, and-- and he going, you
know, and doing his thing, and putting-- putting the-- and I put it in my mouth. And I started choking. And-- [LAUGHS] and-- and-- and I was
afraid, you know. I-- I mean, I had so
many things that I wasn't supposed to say or
do that I was so afraid that if I started
chewing on this thing, they would all know
that I'm Jewish. But anyway that-- that went by. But the-- the-- the interesting incident-- the
funny incident was-- and again, it tells you-- it tells
you how human people are, human with all our-- our good things and bad things. But my first communion, I
was, what, I was about-- confession. I had to go to confession
before the communion. So I'm-- I'm kneeling
in front of the-- in front of the
confessional, and the priest. I don't even know if it
was a booth, you know. But I think it was
kind of almost direct. It was fairly primitive. And, I'm-- you know, kids. I-- I lied three times. I stole four times, you know. And I-- I was-- did that, you know. And I-- I listed all of that. And the priest looked
at me, and says, and did you ever play with
the thing down in your pants? And I looked at him, you know. And I thought, you know. I didn't-- I didn't know. I was totally innocent. I said, no, you know. I figured that was
the safest answer. So he says, fine. So then, when it
was all over, I went to my cousin, who was at
that point he was like 14. I said, do you have to play
with this thing in your pants? What do you have to do? Well he-- I got my
first lesson in sex, OK? So there-- there. [LAUGHS] The other thing
that was, again-- [LAUGHS] the other thing
was, again, the life to me was, even in that point,
even though it was danger, I played with the kids. We-- we had a back-- backyard of the
house was an orchard. So there were-- there
were trees with fruits. We would-- we would
go around the church. There were trees with-- with berries on them. And we would climb and eat-- eat the berries in the
summer, and play in the trees, and play, you know,
around the house. We just had a--
had a good time-- went swimming in the river. So it was fairly peaceful,
I mean, except not-- not telling anybody that I'm-- I'm Jewish and-- and just
pretending I'm a Catholic. And my cousin,
actually he was older. So I was always tagging
along with the big kids. INT: I have a question-- LP: Sure. INT: --about going back to-- with the priest who was talking
about, and with your cousin, and being Jewish. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
Did that ever worry you? LP: No, because I didn't-- INT: In the sense that? LP: You mean-- you
mean the circumcision? I never-- never thought of it. And maybe-- maybe that's-- I-- INT: Did you know that
non-Jewish boys were not circumcised? LP: I wasn't aware. I-- that-- that
didn't-- that was not-- not a factor in-- in--
in my life, you know. [LAUGHS] And if that priest
didn't-- didn't, you know, arouse my curiosity,
I would have-- I would have probably gone
for a couple of more years not-- not being aware of sex. INT: But was it-- was it
something that came up in-- in conversation
between you and your cousin? LP: What? The-- INT: Did you know that you
were different because of that? LP: No, I knew I was-- I knew that I was-- I was different. I knew that I had
something to hide. And the-- the thing that
I had to hide was my-- my being Jewish, and
not-- not being Catholic. But it didn't-- it wasn't a-- it wasn't a big deal, really. As a matter of fact,
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] I-- I wasn't aware that much of--
of Jewishness, of Jewish-- Jewish things. As a matter of fact, next to
my aunt's house was a-- was a-- almost like a mud hut-- mud house. See, my aunt lived in a
house that was all bricks. And very close to her was a--
another house, almost-- almost a peasant's the peasant's house. And they were-- there were some
Jews that lived there that are religious, Orthodox Jews. And I remember seeing them, and
then they disappeared, right? And the house was empty. And I remember, us kids, you
know, we-- obviously we-- we-- we went through the whole
thing, and we saw all the-- all the Hebrew papers
and things like that that were strewn
around the house, the-- the Bible, whatever it was. But to me-- to us, to
me, it was so foreign. It was so, so strange,
that I really-- and I didn't know what it was. I didn't. I-- I just remember
the pictures of-- of this empty mud
house with-- with-- with junk just, you
know, accumulating there, because everything
of value was gone. So these were just
pieces of paper, and-- and the people were gone. So that's-- that's what I-- that's what I remember
about the Jews at that time. INT: Did you have any
contact with your parents? LP: I think we corresponded. We did get letters
back and forth. And the way we were
getting the letters is we had a friend that was in-- that was a conductor
on the railroad. His name was [? Tatik. ?]
And he would take letters from my uncle, and take them
up to Holland or wherever, and mail them to Italy. INT: OK. We're going to stop
and change tapes. LP: Yeah. INT: --at all? LP: No. The letters were not censored,
because as I said, they-- they were given to
the-- to the conductor, [? Tatek, ?] who took
them to either Germany-- I think he took them to Germany. Because he traveled all
through Europe, on the trains. And in Germany, we'd just
get the German stamps and post them. And they would-- my-- my parents would
get them in Treviso. And they would send the letters
to some address in Germany or-- or in-- or in Austria or wherever. I don't know where he had
his-- his address, I guess. And he would bring them to us. And I-- I have-- I have the letters
that my uncle wrote. He was-- being a tailor, he
was very, very meticulous. He actually is a
very interesting man. He was-- he was a-- he was a communist. And-- and one of
the old communists. He-- he really believed in it. And-- and he was a-- he-- he was-- they had
a communist cell. He was a tailor, so he was in
a-- almost in a trade union. He had-- he had his
group of under-- underground group
even before the war. So looks like that continued
even through the war. And eventually, he ended
up joining the partisans. And later on, when--
when the communists took over Yugoslavia, he was a very
disillusioned man, because that wasn't what he believed in. So-- INT: Do you remember
any of his activities while you were there? LP: No. The only thing I remember, I
remember going to the tailor shop, and-- and he would
sew the clothes and-- and us kids, you know, the
kids, we always had to pull out the-- the stitches,
you know, that-- that-- because he would put the
long white stitch to put it together, and then--
then they would run it through the machine. So once they run it
through the machine, we would have to
pull out the white-- the white threads out of it. And actually, I remember-- I'm not sure if they sat on the
tables or as-- because tailors usually will-- were-- in those days, would
sit on the table, so the cloth wouldn't get
dirty on the-- on the ground. So they would be-- they would be kind of elevated. I don't remember. But I remember the-- I remember the-- the-- the shop. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] Anyway, that-- all of that
came to a very abrupt end, the-- the good
life, you know, my-- my cousin, running around
with him, following, you know, having a good time. Because one evening,
two men showed up. And they said, we need-- we need to-- Ljubo. And I was basically arrested. They were policemen. INT: How old were you? LP: I was about seven, or
seven, seven and a half, eight years old. In that period. I don't remember exactly. INT: Who were these men
who came to arrest you? LP: I don't know who they
were, but I know they wore-- they wore winter coats and-- and hats. And they didn't have trench
coats, but they wore coats. INT: Were they--
were they Croatian, or were they were German? LP: They were Croatian--
they were Croatian police. And they came to
the door and said, we need to take
you both to the-- to the-- to the police station. And you know, my aunt
couldn't do anything, so she dressed me up, and
they took me to the station. And they put me in a-- in
a jail cell with the women. INT: Did they say
anything to you? Did they explain
why you were there? LP: I don't remember them
saying anything, but I-- I remember that-- that they-- the-- the barber came, and I
know they shaved my-- my head. INT: What was going
through your mind while this was taking place? LP: I was really scared. I-- I-- I was scared,
but yet-- yet-- it's-- it's-- it's again,
it's a mixture of feelings. I-- I obviously didn't
like them shaving my head. That seemed to be
more of a thing that made an impression on me
than-- than being in a jail. Because on-- on one hand,
I've never been in a jail, so that was a new
experience for me. And I think my aunt brought--
brought clothes, brought-- brought the-- a blanket. So I remember having
the blanket on the floor and sleeping on the floor. And I know it was a Sunday. And there was a-- there was a window
with-- with the bars, just like-- like a jail. And there was a procession,
a religious procession, going to the church. The church was very close by. And-- and I remember,
this is something that stayed with me throughout--
throughout my whole life. And it took me a long time
to get over it, because I-- I was peeking through
the-- through the grates. And my-- my cousin, Greta,
was in the procession. And she saw me. And-- and I could see
the tears in her eyes. And-- and yet, I-- I-- for years, I would tell
this story, I could never get-- never get in touch
with the feelings. I could tell you,
yeah, I was in-- in the bar, just looking through
the window, and my cousin walked by. But-- but the-- the-- the-- the feeling that
I had there was such that I couldn't yell out, because
I knew I would endanger her if-- if-- if they knew in
the group that-- that her-- her cousin was-- was in jail. And yet I wanted-- I wanted to be out there. I wanted to be with her. So there-- there was a mixture
of feelings and-- and such a rage that-- that I could not be there. And-- and-- and-- and it was
more of a feeling of rage than of fear. I was-- I was-- I was mad. I was just-- and yet, there
was nothing I could do. And that stayed with me,
that feeling, I suppressed. And it-- it showed up in-- later on in my life in-- in-- in different ways. Because you asked me-- if you asked me what I
experienced, I said, yeah, I-- I was in jail. I looked through the window. And-- and there were
no feelings to it. It was like a movie
without the sound. And-- and I had to-- I had to go through
therapy later in my life. It showed up in my marriage. It showed up in my whole life. And I worked through it. And until I was
back at that point, that's when I could
deal with that. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] Anyway. INT: Well, going
back to that moment. Tell me-- tell me some more
details about that time. You said you were put
in with the women. LP: The women were--
the women were-- were-- this-- this was the
last remnants of the Jews that were being picked up. Obviously, they took
the-- the orthodox-- the religious Jews
that-- that-- that was-- were easy to identify. And what they were doing
is they were collecting. They were collecting
transports to be transported. And I-- I-- I think the
transport from that town was going through Germany. There were concentration
camps in-- in Croatia. Jasenovac was-- was the one
that my cousin perished in and my uncle. I think my grandfather
from my mother's side was transported to Germany
from-- from Zagreb. INT: Which-- which cousin and
uncle perished in Jasenovac? LP: I had-- I had a cousin-- I had a cousin, his name
was Srecko and Tkalcic was the last name. And my mother's oldest sister
married him, [NON-ENGLISH],, [NON-ENGLISH] or-- she married-- what's his father? I can't remember him, my uncle--
my uncle through marriage name. But they-- they were--
he was a big Croat. He-- even though
he was Jewish, he believed that Croatia is--
should be an independent state. And so he was a big Croat. So when-- when the Croatian
State was established, they were looking for
volunteers to work for Croatia. And he says, it's about time
we did something for Croatia. So he and his son, who was
21, a good-looking boy, good-looking man. He was going to the university. He was engaged to a-- to a
non-Jewish girl, [? Tetsa, ?] and they were just--
they were, I guess, sweethearts, high
school sweethearts. And-- and he was-- he
was-- he volunteered. And I have a picture of him
walking to the camp with-- smiling and-- and laughing and--
and-- and-- and saying, yes, we should do something for the-- for our-- for our country. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And he was killed. He was killed in the-- in
the concentration camp. He was on a-- on a detail
that had to go to the town to pick up food for the
camp, for Jasenovac. And a soldier would
stop-- on the way back, would stop at his
girlfriend's house. And my cousin was an extremely
good-looking young man. And his girlfriend, that,
the soldier's girlfriend, had eyes on him and-- and
was interested in him, and-- and the soldier
was very jealous, became very jealous of him. So on the way back one of the
times, when-- when I guess he-- he had enough of it,
he told my cousin, see those woods out there? If you can make it to those
woods, you're a free man. And as he-- now start running. And as he started
running, he shot him. Obviously, his excuse was
that he tried to escape. And again, this
is a story that we got from people that survived. So. INT: How were you found out? LP: I don't know
how I was found out. I think-- I think they-- they
must have known all along. But I-- I was one of the
last group of people. I was the last one,
with the cripples, with the women, with the
last old, old, old men that were in the other jail cell. But the-- the young men were
taken-- taken away first. And so we maybe lived
under false security. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] So
anyway, I was in-- in the jail. And-- and-- INT: How were you
treated in the jail? LP: There was no mistreatment. As I said, the women took
care of-- care of me. My aunt brought the
food and the clothe-- clothing. And-- and the police
were just treating us like-- like inmates. It wasn't the-- there
was no brutality or anything of that nature. Anyway, to-- to kind of break
the story up and-- and how faith works and how--
how things work out, it's-- it's-- it's-- it's--
it's kind of-- sometimes-- sometimes you start
thinking there-- there-- there are miracles. My father and my
parents were in Treviso. They were living in a villa. They had to report to the
chief of police every Sunday. And whenever they went there,
they would have sipped coffee. And they liked Turkish coffee,
they liked the espresso. And then in the villa, we
would-- we would always-- they would always drink
the Turkish coffee. And-- and one of the
things with Turkish coffee, if you turn the cup upside down,
some people can tell fortunes. And one of the women was looking
through my dad-- father's cup, and she said, you have somebody
that you love very much, and he is in grave danger. And he says, oh, sure, yeah. But he-- it bothered him. INT: Did they know that
you were taken to prison? LP: They didn't
know at that point. OK? They didn't-- the-- the letters
and-- and the information didn't-- didn't get through. And so he says, you
know, we're fine here. Maybe we should bring
Ljubo back to us. Because, you know,
when they left, they really didn't
know what-- what-- what they were getting
into, so they-- they felt I was safer with my aunt. And so they started arranging
to get somebody to get me. And they contacted this-- and it's interesting, because
your-- your Miller, your stand, has the name, Milica
Miller was her name. And she was a
German woman that-- that was in Zagreb somehow. They knew her. And she was a Nazi. She was-- she was very
much a Nazi sympathizer. They somehow contacted them. And she came to Brod about the
same time that I was in jail. And I think my aunt was trying
to arrange something in Zagreb. She took a trip to Zagreb,
trying to get me out of this-- out of the jail. And this Milica Miller, she
knew the chief of police and went over, had
a talk with him. We paid him,
obviously, money, my-- my uncle. And then my uncle had to go and
talk to the chief of police. And he basically told him
that if you let Ljubo out, I will hostage my children. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] So he-- here I get emotional. [LAUGHS] [PAUSES FOR 6
SECONDS] Anyway, he-- he said, I will do that. And so the chief of
police said, fine. And that evening,
about 6 o'clock, he-- he called me in the-- in the-- [SOB] the emotions
still keep coming. [SOBBING] They're still here. [CRYING] I guess it's still there. I always thought it's all
out, but it's still in here. [CRYING] Anyway, he-- he-- he hostages my cousin and my-- basically, he said if-- I'll take him to
my responsibility. But if they are-- if-- if he is
gone, you can take my children. And I guess until now
I didn't realize the-- the-- the-- what he has done. [SOB] [PAUSES FOR
3 SECONDS] Anyway, [PAUSES FOR 6 SECONDS]
what I remember, that evening that the chief
of police called me in-- in-- in-- in his office, took me out
of the jails, take your stuff, put me in the office,
sat me on a chair. I remember sitting in that room,
you know, with my head shaven, and-- and he said, OK. Now, you listen very
carefully to me. I'm going to let you-- you're going to-- you're
going to walk out of here. It was like 6 o'clock
in the evening. It was kind of just-- just
when people eat their supper. And he says, you--
you walk straight to-- to your house. He says, you-- you don't run,
and you don't walk slowly. You walk fast, as
fast as you can. But don't run. And you go straight
to your house. That's what I
remember him telling. And he let me out. And I remember
walking from the jail, and there was nobody on the
street, for some reason. Maybe there were people, but I
certainly didn't notice them. And I remember walking. And I was afraid whether
to walk or to run. And anyway, I got
back to the house. And my aunt, that evening,
that peasant friend of theirs came to the house with
a cart and a horse, and he took me to a
village outside of Brod. INT: How long were
you in the prison for? LP: About-- about
four days or so. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
And so I stayed with-- with the family in
a-- in a small-- it was a village,
basically, with mud-- mud houses, you know. And I stayed with the family. And I played with the kids. We ran around. I don't-- I don't know
if it was summer or-- it was warm. I-- I-- I remember that. And until they could-- things could settle down. And what my uncle arranged
with the chief of police is that he told him, he
says, after about a week, have your wife come in
and fill out a report saying that I have
disappeared, that she doesn't know where I am. So there was a cover,
to cover the whole deal. She said, you know, he
didn't-- we didn't hide him. He just disappeared. He might have drowned. He went swimming. He might have
drowned in the river. We don't know. We don't know. He disappeared. And that's what-- what
they ended up doing. In the meantime, they arranged
with this Milica Miller to take me by train to-- to Italy. INT: What was the name
of this chief of police? LP: I don't know. I don't know the name, his name. But he was-- he
was part of the-- he was part of the-- the Ustase regime. He was one of the-- one of the-- the [NON-ENGLISH]. And he just did a favor
to my uncle and-- and-- and [PAUSES FOR 4
SECONDS] I don't know if he was
his cell mate, you know, part of the
communist cell. I don't know that. I doubt it. Because this Milica had-- had arranged something too. She-- she had the conversation
with the chief of police, and they kind of plotted
how to get me out. INT: How long were you in
hiding at this mud house before you left? LP: About a week or two,
almost two weeks or so, till-- till things settled down. The transport-- by-- by the way,
that transport, that transport went out midnight. INT: Tell me about the
transport and how-- LP: I don't know. I wasn't there. INT: Oh, OK. LP: But I heard it
from my uncle that-- that the people
that were there-- INT: I understand. LP: --that's-- I-- I-- I was left out of--
let out by 6 o'clock, 7 o'clock in the evening. The transport left
at-- at midnight, in the middle of the night. Because they did that so that
they wouldn't be aware of it. INT: When did you leave
with this Mrs. Miller? LP: About two weeks after that. And-- INT: Tell me how that-- the details of that event. LP: The details was that
the she came-- she came. She went back. She went back to Zagreb
again, and then she came back. And-- and you know,
they dressed me. She-- and she was-- basically, she-- she
had a son about my age. And the passports
in those days just had a picture of the parent. They didn't have a picture
of the kid, children. And she had just his-- has her son on the--
on the passport, which was Vlado Miller. And she-- I went-- I went as her son. She pretended that
I was her son, and she was going to Italy. And she-- she had
the free movements. She could move
wherever she wanted to. INT: And she had a
picture of her son? LP: What? INT: She had a picture of
her son on her passport? LP: No. You-- you-- the
passport didn't have to have pictures
of the children. The passport only had--
you could-- you could put-- I mean, if you-- you could put the-- the
mother's picture and-- and-- and son. And it said and son. And put his name, Vlado Miller. So-- and you know, I was blonde,
and she was blonde, and it-- I could pass for
her son very easy. And-- and I don't think
people were that careful. So anyway, she took
me across the border, and my parents arranged. Because they couldn't
leave through a visa. They arranged for a
priest to come and get me. And so the priest came
and took me from-- from-- on a train
from Fiume to-- to Treviso. And so then-- then I was
reunited with my parents. INT: When was this? What year? LP: Hm, good question. That was-- let's
say '41, about '43. Around '43 or so. So we were-- so I finally
reunited with my parents, and obviously, I was very happy. And-- and again, I
could start playing. I would play-- I could play
with the kids, and it was back-- back to quote,
unquote, 'normal.' INT: Did you talk to them
about your prison experience? LP: I don't remember
talking to them about it. I-- I told them what happened. But again, as you can-- I-- I-- I suppressed a
lot of those feelings. And-- and-- and the
feelings didn't-- I mean, I don't-- I don't know. Even-- even now, the feelings
keep coming up of when I-- when I think of some of
these-- some of these events. And-- and I-- I think-- I think we as--
as-- as human beings are very resilient. I think we-- we-- we-- we push-- push them down. But-- but unless you let
the-- let the feelings out, they-- they come
out somewhere else, with a different behavior,
different-- different ways. And I think as a kid, I-- I-- I just told
them what happened in-- in my eight-year-old,
nine-year-old way-- way of telling stories. So anyway, we were interned,
and I could play with the kids. I could-- I remember living
in a-- in a little apartment. We were crowded. We moved from that villa,
I think, after I came, and moved away from-- from the other-- again, it's--
it's a little bit confusing. I know we lived--
all of us lived in a villa, the whole family. My family, and then
another family, the Webers, our friends, and her
parents were there. And-- and again, we were back
to sitting in the backyard and-- and having
dinners together. And I still remember my
father taking me in the back, and there was a spider,
this spider that had a web, and he would catch
flies and show me how-- how the spider eats the flies. And every day, we would go to
the-- to visit that spider, you know. And I was fascinated, obviously. I had never seen
anything like it. INT: Were the friends-- were the other people Jewish? LP: They were all Jewish. They were all Jewish. We were all kind of a community. And this Slavko
Brenner, our friend, who kind of stayed with us
throughout the war, was there. And then eventually, my-- my uncle Mark, [PAUSES
FOR 3 SECONDS] who was also arrested, joined us. So we were kind of-- we were kind of reuniting
again and trying to lead the life the best we could. And-- and then every
Sunday, as I mentioned, we would go to the--
to the chief of police. And my parents had a cup of
coffee with him and says, OK. You report it,
and I can go back. They were-- he was-- he
was actually considered us as his friends, because
we were the intelligentsia of a society. So it was kind of an event
every Sunday, reporting-- reporting to the police. We could not work,
and we could not travel, unless it was
just a day travel. We had to come back. And I think once, I went
with my mom, and that's-- that's when we went to
Udine, which was close by. And I think-- and
Mussolini and Hitler just happened to be passing by. And so we saw this-- this car, open car,
you know, the top-- with the top down, car, with--
with them going together. And my mom had-- we went out to buy potatoes. And she commented. She said, I wish those
potatoes were hand grenades. INT: Did you understand
who they were? LP: I understood. At that point, I
started to understand. I was understanding a little bit
more about what was going on. I know-- INT: Did you know who they were? LP: I knew who they
were, yes, definitely. So that was-- that was
a very brief moment as they went through. And then one-- one
Sunday, when we went to report to the-- to
the chief of police, he says, you don't have to
come here anymore. You're free citizens. Because [? Badoglio, ?] who was
a general in the Italian Army, revolted against the Germans. You're free to go
wherever you want to. Well, we will be
listening to the radio, and the Americans had, by that
time, invaded Southern Italy. And they were
advancing to-- toward-- toward the north. And so we figured, well, the-- the American Navy is going
to be in Venice in no time. So we moved from Treviso
and rented an apartment in-- in Venice. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
And you know, a month goes by, and no Americans. It started-- the-- the--
the housing in-- in Venice is terrible, because
the humidity seeps through the walls, and
you can't heat the house, because you heat it, and
there's steam coming out. And I remember in this
little dinky room, sitting and-- and-- and almost
like a steam bath. And-- and it just wasn't-- and
I couldn't go and play outside. We stayed-- stayed
in the apartment, because there was
nothing-- nothing really to do in Venice for me. I didn't have my friends. I didn't have company. So anyway, we
stayed in-- inside. And no-- no Americans-- and the next thing you know,
Piazza San Marco started filling up with German officers. They were sitting out,
sipping their coffee. And we're looking around,
and-- and they were-- you know, the German Army was just--
there-- there was the place to go and-- and enjoy Venice. I mean, they were--
they were tourists. And we finally said,
no, we don't think-- we don't think the Americans
are going to come to Venice. [LAUGHS] So we
decided, if they're not going to come to us, we'll
try and go toward them. INT: When was this now? What time of year? LP: It was-- I think it was
fall, in the fall. And so anyway, my mom and my-- and-- and Slavko Brenner
took a train to Rome to make arrangements for us to
find out where we could stay. And they found an
apartment through a lawyer. And the apartment
that they found was a fascist who was
dealing with Malta. He was-- his name
was [NON-ENGLISH].. And he might have been from-- from Malta, but he knew
what was happening. So he closed his apartment,
and he lived with his mother. And they went to Switzerland. And he told this lawyer, you
rent my apartment for me. And so that's-- that's
where we ended up, on-- in-- in a nice section of Rome,
Corso Trieste, which was-- at that time, it was on
the outskirts of Rome. Now Rome extends even further. And so my mother brought
to my father it's time to-- it's time to-- the--
the rest of your came. And so my father and-- and there was another
lady that came with us, and I don't know who she was. We got on a train and
tried to go from-- from Venice to-- to Rome. INT: OK. We're going to stop
and change tapes. LP: OK. Good. INT: How much awareness
had you at this time about why you were moving
around and what was going on? LP: Well, at this point, I
was starting to be more-- more aware of--
and I was growing. I-- I-- and I was with my
parents, who could talk to me and-- and explain things. INT: And how old were you? LP: I was-- was about eight-- eight or so, eight-- eight and
a half, in that-- in that age-- age bracket. And anyway, the
trip, I remember-- I remember the trip
because we-- we slept-- we-- we actually were in a--
in a sleeping compartment. And for some reason,
trains didn't run. They would stop for--
for-- for-- for even a day, because the tracks were
bombed or something till they repaired them. And the trip-- I don't know how long it
took us, but it took us a-- it had to be-- normally, it's
an overnight trip nowadays with the fast train. I think it took us
several days to get there. And I remember sleeping
in this compartment and-- and cooking on--
on little Primus cookers, you know, heating food, and--
and when the train was stopped, going to the station
and trying to buy things from the peasants. And-- and I think there were
German soldiers traveling different directions and
going different ways. INT: Was there any fear in-- in
the German soldiers because you were Jewish? Was there any problems? LP: There were no problems
because I don't think-- I don't think that the-- these were-- these
were army people. And-- and we were,
basically-- we weren't traveling in a-- in a--
in Jewish, you know, transport. We were just part of
the traveling population during the war, people
moving from area to area. And Italians-- Italians
didn't like the Germans, so-- so they even looked at
the soldiers as-- as-- they-- they didn't
care for them. I mean, what happened
was the German-- Germans reoccupied, basically,
Italy and-- and put-- put back in place the-- the officials. But nobody-- nobody really
cooperated with the Germans. They didn't, you
know, resist them, but they didn't cooperate. And [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] the one-- one thing that I remember. Finally, we've changed trains. I-- I remember sleeping
in-- in a little-- overnight in a-- in
some peasant's house. We, I guess, rented the room. And I remember sleeping in
the same bed with my dad, with a-- with a big-- big feather cover. And then the next morning,
we caught a train. We were supposed to catch a
train to go out toward Rome. And-- and my dad said, oh,
let me get off the train. Or in one of the stations-- I don't even know
if it was there-- let me go off the
train and let me get something-- something to eat. And he got off
the train, and I-- I was there just by myself. And the train started moving. And I panicked, you know. As a-- as a kid, I panicked. And yet, I couldn't-- I couldn't do much about it. So I just was petrified. And then what my
dad did, obviously, when he saw the train moving,
he just hopped on one of the-- so one of the cars and
then worked his way through the train to me. And I was-- I remember
I was so happy to-- to see him. And we came to Rome to
the railroad station. And there were no taxis, no-- no buses. And we found this guy with
a-- with a tricycle, you know, bicycle with a--
with a platform. And we loaded our
suitcases on it. And we basically walked from
the station to that apartment. And-- and the-- the-- the--
the apartment was on the-- the street. Kind of went down. And I remember
when we got there, the-- the fellow that was riding
by, says, oh, hop on there. So we all hopped on the-- on
the-- on the little tricycle and-- and basically
coasted down. And my mom was waiting
for us on the bottom. It was a nice sunny day. And I was so happy to
be reunited with them. And the apartment was-- was on a second floor. It was a corner apartment, so
you could see the main street, and the other side was
overlooking a big, big area, that there was not
built. It was just a field, the fenced-in field. And about, I would say,
about 100 feet from there was a movie house that was built.
So that was just an open lot. So the apartment was very sunny. The sun would shine
from that end. It was a two-- let me think. It was a living room,
a dining-- dining room. And then there were two bedrooms
and a kitchen in between. And then there was another room
that this [NON-ENGLISH] locked everything, all his possessions,
all the-- all the possessions in. Needless to say, the first thing
we did is unlock the room and-- and take all that furnish-- some of the furniture out,
some of the dishes out. He had fabulous artwork. He had books. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And
so we took all the books and put them back in the
shelves and-- and put-- took all the paintings. And we just-- just
emptied that room. And somebody [LAUGHS]
ended up using it. And-- but we needed-- the Germans were in-- in-- in-- in-- in Rome. And we needed the-- we needed identification cards. And-- INT: What did you do? LP: I'm sorry? INT: How were you-- were
you able to get any? LP: The way-- the way-- again, we found-- we-- we heard and we found through-- I don't know how-- through the lawyer
or through somebody that the Italian friends that
we made that there was a man that worked in the police
office of the island of Capri. And he escaped with the
Germans from-- by that time, the Allied were already
occupied the-- the island. And he took with him a suitcase
full of identification cards and-- and the-- the-- water stamp-- I mean a-- a pressure
stamp and the whole thing with-- with the stamp
of the chief of police. And he opened an
office in-- in-- in Rome. And he was selling false
identification cards. So I went to him. Paid him a couple
of thousand liras. I don't even know what it was. And you would give him
a name and a picture, and he would make you a very
valid identification card. But again, this was-- we tried to limit our-- our time on the street
to as little as possible, because the Germans would
block two sides of the street. And whoever was on
the street, they would look for
their-- they would go through their
identification cards. And even though we had
the identification cards, my parents' Italian
wasn't that good. I picked it up much easier,
so I could probably-- but I didn't have an
identification card. But I could probably get-- get by easier. But we were afraid
that they would know-- they would know that we--
we-- those were false. And my father was [NON-ENGLISH]. That was his name. And my mother's name was-- I don't know the first name. But she was Bellini. And my name was
Benjamino Bellini. I was on her-- on her identification card. And talking about some
funny incidences-- we were riding in
a bus with my dad. And-- and I remember-- I could see it like today--
he suddenly got very, very serious, you know. And I said, what's--
what-- why are you so-- what's going on, you know? What-- what--
what's the problem? He says, I forgot what's my
first name and what's my last name [LAUGHS] because
[NON-ENGLISH].. Or he could be [NON-ENGLISH]. And I just remember
that, because I thought it was-- something was
really, really wrong, and obviously, we ended
up laughing about it. We had to open his card and
look at it to make sure. INT: Did anybody question your
identity by your appearance? LP: I didn't-- at that time,
I didn't have any friends. I stayed inside. I-- I read all the books that
this-- this [NON-ENGLISH] had. I read stuff that
kids of eight or nine would never bother even opening. I read books way ahead
of my time, you know, Gulliver's Travels, at that
point, the original version. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] Oliver
Twist, you know, Dickens. I read Dickens. I read-- I read Dante's
Inferno, you know. I read whatever was printed. I read it. Because I didn't
have anything to do. One recreation that we did-- were able to do is
go to the opera. And we would get tickets
for the highest-- for the gallery, way
up in the Rome opera. And on the bottom was
all German officers. It was just-- just
the whole thing was full of German officers. But in the-- in
the galleria, were all Italians with their
sandwiches, with their wine. And they're the ones
that live the opera. And I-- I got to love opera. And I was more fascinated
with the settings. So when I came back, you know,
I would set up my own theater. I'd put the lighting
and have the puppets and do all the scenery
and everything else. So I-- I basically
amused myself. Now, we'd listen to the radio. We listened to the
broadcasts, BBC broadcasts, because we had one
of these big radios. And we moved it, because
the radio was normally in the-- in the-- in the
room that was adjoining our neighbor on the other side. So we moved it from-- from that end to the
other end of the house so they couldn't hear us
listening to the station. After the war, we found out
that they did the same thing. [LAUGHS] One thing that I
was aware of-- you-- you asking me if I
was aware of it-- underneath us was a
lady, an older woman, that either she had a club
foot or-- but she had-- I know she had one-- one shoe was-- was higher. And one night, we heard
a lot of commotion, a lot of noise underneath. And I don't know if she
was Jewish or she was-- but they took her away. I don't know if she
ever came back or not. But that was-- that night, we
were really scared that they would just climb another,
you know, another floor and come and get us, but
they never-- they never did. And I don't know if it
was the Germans or the-- I think they were rounding
up the last of the Jews. INT: When was this? LP: That was close to-- almost close to
the end of the war. And I don't remember it
exactly the-- the date of when Rome was liberated. But it was in the last-- last-- very close to-- probably six--
six months before that or so. The-- the-- the fellow that
lived with us, Slavko Brenner, was-- this is another story-- was-- was basically a gambler. And he went to a big hotel
and ended up gambling. And he won a lot of
money from some people. And they came to our
apartment and said, we know that you are Jewish. We know you were-- you're a captain in
the Yugoslav army. And your name is Slavko Brenner. And unless you pay us back
what you want and pay us more, we'll turn you in. So he said, well, I-- I-- I-- fine, I'll-- I'll do this. I understand, you know. I don't like it, but I-- I don't have the cash. I need to raise the cash. Can you come back in--
in couple of days, and I'll have the money? So they said, OK. You know, they figured,
know where they are. So that night, we
packed our things, and we moved to another
town, another part of town. We moved into the
center of the town into a pension, which was on
the last floor of a building. It was basically a hotel. And we moved-- all
of us moved there. I don't remember if we got
different identification cards, but we just left that place. And he-- being a gambler,
he waited for them. And he says, I know. I'm sorry. I don't have the money. You've got to turn me in. And he got a summons to
report to the police. And we kept saying, you're not
going to go there, are you? And he says, yes, I am. And he actually went
to the-- to the police. And when the-- and
again, that's his story. Whether he did or
not, I'm not sure. But he said the-- the-- the chief of
police, basically, or one of the interrogators,
not the chief of police, said just a minute. I have to leave the room. And he left the
paper on his desk. And he kind of turned
it around and read it. And it said Slavko Brenner,
captain of the Yugoslav army, Jewish, his name,
everything else. So when the officer came there-- and this was Italian police. This wasn't German-- came
back, he says-- he asked him, [PAUSES FOR 3
SECONDS] who you are. He says, I'm Slavko Brenner. I'm so and so. He says, look, I don't
have time right now. Just come back in another week,
which was his way of saying, get lost. Anyway, we were in
this-- in this apartment. And then one-- and this
was the liberation of Rome. One day, everything--
everything got very quiet. And we were listening
to the radio, and we knew-- knew this
was starting to happen. And, you know, airplanes
kept flying on the horizon. And I remember looking through
the window in the morning. German on a motorcycle with
a-- with a sidecar came by. And they were
rattling on the garage down there to make sure
everything is gone. And then town emptied. And Rome was a free city. So the Germans pulled out. And then in the-- by-- by 2:00, 3 o'clock in the
afternoon and in the evening, the Americans came in. And so there was this quiet-- not a-- not a soul
on the street. And-- [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
and so we watched, you know, on the-- and waited for the Americans. And then the American
soldiers started coming in. And everybody's poured out of
the buildings to greet them. And I know I wanted
to go to see them. And my mom said, no, you're--
you're not going till the tanks come in. [LAUGHS] She-- she was afraid. And next thing you
know, there were shots. And what was happening
is the soldier was so tired, that-- and they
were getting hugged and they-- they couldn't walk. They start shooting in the air. And my mom says, see? I told you there was an ambush. They waited for the ambush. Well, then the-- then the
American trucks came in. Obviously, then,
I went out, and I was one of the kids that
was getting the candy bars. And I spoke English, so they-- obviously, they were thrilled
to see somebody so I-- [LAUGHS] I made out with
all the-- all the goodies. And-- and then, you
know, then we moved back. We moved back to-- to--
of course, to Trieste, to the apartment, and-- INT: In the last few months
before the liberation, what was the emotional
state of your family? LP: [SIGHS] It was-- it was very tense. It was very tense, because it
seemed like, you know, you-- you had to-- even it was tense even from-- from-- from the time of Treviso. And-- and-- and I think it was
even tense throughout the war, because you had
to make decisions. You had to make
life-or-death decisions. And-- and there was-- at that point, I could
sense friction between my-- my parents, because my
father was more of a easygoing guy, and my mother was
saying, no, we got to-- she was the one that-- that-- that was
driving what was-- you know, what decisions. She was the one that-- if you're not going to go,
I'm going to go to Rome. So they were starting--
they were starting-- I could sense a-- a-- a-- a conflict between my
parents, even though they-- they kept-- kept it from-- from me. INT: What was their financial
state at that point? LP: [SIGHS] We seemed to be-- we seemed to be doing all right. Because we-- as I said,
we-- we had-- we-- we had enough gold. And we-- we-- we participated a little
bit in the black market. So we did make some money
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] to-- to survive. And there was a community. There was-- even though we
were all separate, there was-- we started making connections. We found out so-and-so is here. We had a friend, she was-- she was just by herself. She lived with another lady. And she didn't have any money. So she became my
English teacher, OK? And it was a way of-- was a way of giving
her money with-- so she could earn it. INT: And what was her name? LP: Oh, you got me
now, because I-- I went-- I just
recently visited her. She lives in Israel. Zdenka Lipa. And she lives in Israel. And she ended up
marrying somebody. And they got divorced
six months later. And she has a daughter. And they live in Israel,
and the daughter adopted now another little Romanian girl. And I visited them about-- I was on a business
trip to-- to Israel. And we spent the
weekend with her. INT: After the liberation, how
long did you stay in Rome for? LP: Well, after the
liberation, it was summertime, so school was still out. INT: What year was this now? LP: It was in about '40-- '44, '45, between '44 and '45. I don't know when Rome
was liberated for sure. But I-- I started
going to a tutor. And at that point, I
could play with the kids. And I was-- I was just-- just-- all that pent-up energy
that I had, I let loose. So we-- we got into mischief. And we were-- our enemies
were the portiere. And portiere were-- were the-- the-- the-- each house had-- had a-- a superintendent. And they-- they typically
took-- you know, they took care of the house. And they usually would sit. And there was one that used to
sit up in front of the house. And he wouldn't let us play,
you know, and run through the-- through the-- because that--
that house had a courtyard, and we would climb
walls, you know. And-- and he was
always after us. So he was our enemy, you know. And-- and I even
found a little poem. We were the Black
Panthers, the group of kids that I played with. They were all Italians. There were none-- no--
no-- no Jews in the group. But me being kind
of different, I-- I was kind of a-- and-- and me being
the one that was-- that had the pent-up energy,
I was always the instigator, or I always ended up doing
things that they wouldn't do. So we found this package and-- a nicely wrapped package. And somebody played a trick. It was excrement in it. [LAUGHS] You know,
so we opened it. We thought, oh,
somebody lost a package. You know kids. And we found it. So what do we do with this? Well, portiere, OK. [LAUGHS] So I was chosen as the one to-- and to smear the
thing on his chair. And we thought that when he
sat down, he would sit in it, you know, and we
would get our revenge. Well, he knew me. I mean, he-- he
knew where I lived. He knew my mom. I mean, he knew-- so he told my mother. And my mother at that time was-- my dad volunteered to go
back to the partisans. So he left. He left to fight the
Germans in-- in Yugoslavia. And he ended up being in charge
of a motor pool where they would get the German
prisoners of war to work on the-- on the
trucks and the machines. And-- and he ran that
for the partisans. INT: Well, what
were your thoughts about him going to become-- to join the partisans? LP: I really-- INT: The war was still going on. LP: The war was still going
on in Yugoslavia, yeah. But it was very-- again, it was
very gradual, because first-- first the-- he-- the-- the-- the-- the partisans
were recruiting or trying to get the people back. I know at the time, my mom was
getting some assistance from-- from the-- from some
organizations, because I know I have receipts that she
saved of assistance. And then she got a notice that--
that the assistance will cease. But again, I found
this much later. But I don't know. It seemed like-- it seemed like
part of my dad was gone again. He had to join--
you know, it was-- and-- and my interests were more
in-- in playing with the kids. So I don't know if that
had much effect on me. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] But anyway, when I got
into mischief, my mother-- and my mother started going out. She was-- most of the
evenings she was gone. I guess she went
with her friends. And I-- I stayed home a
lot by myself at that time. And I remember
cooking myself dinner. And I always made
concoctions with eggs. I mean, that was-- that was
the easiest thing to, you know, put cheese in there
and onions and peppers and then break couple
of eggs and do toast. So that's the kind
of meals that I had. And I guess it was her way
of-- of letting loose, too. She-- she was invited
to different functions, different parties. She let her nails grow. And you know, she
was dressed well. And I think at that time,
she met my stepfather, who was a lieutenant
in the American Navy. INT: So where was your father? LP: My father was in-- in-- in-- in Europe, in
Yugoslavia, at that time. And [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] he-- he-- he's also Yugoslavian. He was-- he was-- he's from
the coast of Yugoslavia-- not-- not Jewish. He was-- was Catholic. And so he would-- he would come to our house. And I know he stayed with us. He stayed in this one room. And I-- I always
thought he was-- I mean, you know,
he brought me candy. He brought me things. You know, he was-- commissary. He had-- he had a Jeep. It was a lot of fun. And I-- I-- I was-- soldiers would,
you know, give me stuff. I remember standing
once on the corner of a-- of a-- of a street and-- and a big truck came by. And the-- the American driver
asked me for directions, you know. He-- he was lost. And he tried the-- his little Italian that he had. And I answered him in English. [LAUGHS] He was surprised. Says, come on, show
me where it is. So I showed him where it is. He took me to the-- to the
base, took me down to the-- to the kitchen. And he was, I guess,
friends with the cooks. They-- they all-- they
all hovered over me, gave me a big meal, you
know, [LAUGHS] steak, or whatever it was. Then he went to the PX,
got me a big bag of candy, gave it to me and-- and took me right
back where he left me. And my mother was all
upset, because she didn't know where I was. [LAUGHS] And I-- I was happy. I had my candy, you
know, and obviously, I shared it with my friends. And hey-- and I-- I had a good time. INT: After the war,
who were your friends? Were they Jewish or non-Jewish? LP: I had-- I had a Jewish
friend during the war, Danko Reknitzer. And he had polio as a kid. He was a doctor's-- his father was a doctor. And they lived similarly to us
in another part of the town. And I used to go-- I used to go and
visit him quite often and-- and play with him,
even-- even during the war. We became-- and he
was Jewish, obviously. And-- and I remember he-- he loved symphonies
and Beethoven. And I could-- I didn't
know Beethoven from-- from anybody else, even though
I liked opera, because-- because-- but I
liked the scenery. I could care less for the music. And so he-- I remember
him talking about it and how great he is. And he used to listen to
that, and-- because he-- he was crippled. So it was hard for him to play. So he-- he got his interest in-- in classical music. But basically, I
played with the-- with the neighborhood kids,
which none of them were Jewish. And-- and actually, that-- that-- that was in
Treviso, the same thing. When I was in Treviso,
I played with the kids-- perfectly accepted. There was no-- there was no
prejudice from the Italians. As a matter of fact, we were-- we were helped. My-- my uncle married a-- a-- a Roman lady, because he
used to go to their house. Another family lived with them. And we used to trade during
the-- during the war, we'd trade. If somebody found
rice somewhere, they'd buy a whole bunch of it. And somebody found
beans somewhere else and, you know, then
we would trade. And he would go pick it
up and bring it back. So there was no--
there-- with Italians there was no animosity. The church, even though
Pope Pius XII was not-- was collaborating with the
Nazis, the church didn't-- you could walk into St. Peter's. If you were in
trouble, you could walk into St. Peter's and-- and-- and disappear, basically. So the-- the-- the detectives,
a lot of the detectives, stood in front of the church
in trench coats to see if there are any people that
they recognized that-- that were trying to
go to the church. I remember-- I
remember seeing that. And [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
we were-- we were helped. You know, we-- we
got assistance even from the priests and the church. INT: We were talking
about post-war. LP: Post-war. I was-- INT: When did your
father return? LP: My father-- my
father returned. And I guess things were
going on between my mother-- I think-- I think they were
proceeding with the divorce. I wasn't aware of it. And he came-- he came back-- [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] I
don't remember when exactly. But he came back. And you know, I was just-- I-- I was just thrilled
to see him again. And I guess the arrangement was
that he was going to take me back to Yugoslavia, 'cause
my-- my grandmother, the one-- my-- his-- my father's mother had cancer. And she was dying in a hospital. And she wanted to see me. That was the story that I know. And so I left with my father. And he was going to bring
me back, supposedly. Again, I don't know-- I don't know the truth of it. And my mother married
Frank Petrich, who was-- who was the officer in the Navy. And I left with my father
to go back to Zagreb to see my grandmother. INT: What year was that? LP: That was 1945. INT: OK. We're going to stop
and change tapes. LP: OK. LP: OK. INT: Post-war. LP: Post-war, so anyway,
my father came to Rome, and he took me back to
Zagreb to see my grandmother, who was-- who was dying. She did have cancer, and she was
all yellow on the liver and-- and-- INT: Which-- and how
had she survived? LP: She survived by being
hidden by the Muslim people outside of Sarajevo. They had some friends. And the whole family, she
and her husband and the two daughters, my-- my
aunts, [NON-ENGLISH],, and Roshica all lived together. They never married, so
they-- they always stayed-- stayed together. And after the war, they
came back to Zagreb. And they ended up
living in a-- we owned-- one of the aunts
owned an apartment, so they ended up moving
in the apartments. We could not get back
into our house in-- in [NON-ENGLISH],,
on our apartment, because that was taken over
by the Ustasha and then later on by the communists,
so it was an office-- basically an office building. So we ended up living in-- in
the apartment that they owned. Actually, it wasn't the
apartment that they owned, it was an apartment above it. They owned the
apartment below, but you couldn't-- because of the laws,
you couldn't kick the people out, so they ended up there. Anyway, that's minor details. Then I found out
that I wasn't going to go-- going back to
Rome to join my mother. Instead, they enrolled me in-- in the junior high school. And I-- I attended three
years of junior high. By that time, the
communists took over. And again, I was
just a school boy. And I really didn't fully
understand what was going on. And I suspected my aunt-- I realized that my parents
were getting divorced, and I suspected my aunt of
masterminding the whole thing. Because-- and again, how
kids get impressions. Somebody-- one of the officials
came to the house and says, I have these papers
that you need to sign. And when he was there, she
gave him a-- a shot of whiskey or [NON-ENGLISH]. You know, which-- which was-- which was normal for somebody. It was like just-- just like
we have water here or coffee or whatever, just
oh, have a shot. It was a-- and so I thought that
she was happy that this was-- this was happening. And I wrote a letter to my
mom saying that I know-- I understand everything, and I-- I know that she is the
one that arranged it all. And obviously, she
intercepted the letter and talked to my father. And then he sat down
and explained to me what was really happened,
that they separated, and that I would
live now with my-- with him. And I started going to school. I went for three
years to junior high. In the meantime, my
father married, again, a Catholic woman in Zagreb. And they moved-- from business,
he got transferred to a-- again, a provincial
town, [NON-ENGLISH],, which was on the border
of Hungary, in Yugoslavia. INT: How often did you see your
mother after they divorced? LP: I did not see my
mother after that. Because she married
my stepfather, and they came back to the
United States, to San Diego. So we-- this is when we got-- we were separated. INT: How old were you? LP: I was 10 years old. And so I ended up
living with my aunts, who were very good to me. I mean, they-- they
treated me like their own. The two sisters were-- one
took care of the house, and the other sister
was the working-- working one, and she went
out and earned money. My grandfather, being
a machinist, I-- I still remember, I watched
him build a lathe out of nothing, out of wood. He built the
[? bowls ?] out of wood and took them to-- to be
cast, and then he machined it. And he was making toys to-- to earn money, extra money. And my aunts would knit. They earned money that way. And one aunt, Roshica,
who worked in-- for the government. And so I stayed with them. My father moved to
Subotica, and I saw him on-- in summers and on-- on holidays. I would go there for the--
for the summer months and live with them. And I didn't get along
well with my stepmother. I just hated her. And I never got
together with her. Anyway, they-- they
pressured my father to join the Communist Party,
and he didn't want anything to do with it. And in 1948, they allowed all
the Jews from-- from Yugoslavia to emigrate to Israel. And so my father said,
I'm-- we're going to Israel. And I was very much against it,
because I was just finished-- I just finished my
junior high years, and I just started
the-- the upper-- the gymnasium. And I didn't want
to go to Israel. I didn't have anything-- I didn't know anything
about Jewish religion or-- or-- or-- or Zionism
or anything like that. Why-- I didn't want
to leave my friends. You know. So I was very unhappy. But my father said,
no, we have to leave, but I cannot stay here. They're pressuring me. You know, and-- and so on. I-- we have to leave. And so we packed our bags and
packed our suitcases and took a terrible trip on a-- on a-- on a ship, Kephalos. It was called Kephalos. It left Yugoslavia, and-- and-- and I don't take well to-- to ocean travel. I don't think I-- I-- I-- I think I
vomited everything I ate up for the whole trip. I was just-- just-- just a sick puppy. And-- but-- but the ship was a-- actually a prisoner
of war ship that the-- that it was transporting German
prisoners to the United States. It's a-- it was
a transport ship. So it was three levels of-- of-- of wooden-- wooden sections, and
each one had three levels of-- of sleeping that
it was-- it was-- we were like one of the
second one down below, way down in the bowels. Anyway, we got to Israel
in 1948, went to a camp. And the kids were-- most of the kids were sent
off to a-- to a kibbutz. And so I ended up on a kibbutz
in Ha-Zore'a, which was Hashomer Hatzair. It was a-- it was a
socialist kibbutz. INT: How did that
affect you, now-- now being shipped off
to a new country and separated from your family? LP: [SIGHS] I-- I-- I-- I wasn't-- I wasn't happy. I was-- I was very
unhappy with-- with the whole situation. I-- I didn't-- first of all, I-- I stopped my education. Hebrew was very difficult for
me, because I didn't know-- I-- I didn't have
any background. As a matter of fact, I
remember in the Port of Haifa, looking through the porthole,
and there was a poster. And it said, it
said T-A-N, and then there was a crate
with wings on it. And above it was [? Aeged. ?] And I thought,
what is the crate? Is that crates of eggs? And tan, how does
that fit together? Well, if you think about
it, it was [HEBREW].. [? Aeged, ?] which was the
transportation company. But I didn't-- I didn't even know
that this was Hebrew. That's-- that's how
little I knew of Hebrew. Zero. So I was reading
it tan, backwards. INT: What-- what was the
situation with your mother? I mean, why was it that you-- LP: I still don't know for sure. I think-- I think there was-- my mother said that-- that the
arrangement was for-- for me to come back, that she
had me on her passport. And my dad was
supposed to return her. It could be my
father's mean streak, that he was going to get revenge
and not-- not send me back. And it could be an arrangement
that they had, that he said, I'll give you the divorce if-- if you let me have Ljubo. So until today, you know, the
story that my mother tells me, I'm not sure if it's true. But whatever it was, I
ended up staying behind. And she came to the States,
and then she had that-- my stepsister and
my stepbrother. So I have-- INT: What are their names? LP: One is Tom Petrich and
Katherine, Kathy Petrich. And Kathy is married, and
her husband went to school. And he's a-- a radiology--
nuclear medicine radiologist, and they're in
Springfield, Illinois. And my brother also married. And he lives in Big Bear Lake. But the whole
family disowned him because he became
a reborn Christian and just went crazy on
us and accused my mother of molesting the kids and-- totally untrue. Just-- just totally broke
away from the whole family. And we haven't
talked to him since. I tried to put some sense
in him, but didn't go well. INT: Go back and talk about
when you arrived in Israel. How long were you
on the kibbutz? How long did you
stay in Israel for? LP: I stayed on-- on Ha-Zore'a, and I got in
trouble because we were-- we suddenly saw bananas. We saw fruit. And we-- we stole it. And we-- chocolate. And being kids, we-- we
stashed it in our suitcases. And I got in trouble
for stealing, basically. And they shipped me to
another kibbutz, Sarid, which was also a Hashomer Hatzair. In that kibbutz, I was separate. We were actually a-- a Yugoslav
group of kids from Yugoslavia in-- in Ha-Zore'a. When I got shipped
to Sarid, I was put in a group with Bulgarian kids. And I didn't-- my--
in the meantime, my father left Israel, and-- and
I didn't get along with his-- with his-- with his wife. We constantly would clash. And so he left, because he
had a friend in Italy that had a business,
and the two of them didn't like Israel anyway,
so they left for Italy. And so he ended up living in-- in Italy. And I was in a
kibbutz all by myself. I had an aunt, my mother's
sister, that lived in Haifa. INT: Which sister? LP: Roshica. She's the old-- older sister. And she lived in Haifa and-- which was very close, and
I would go and visit her from the kibbutz. But I was very unhappy. I wanted to go to school. The kibbutz wanted me
to become a farmer. I didn't want to be a farmer. I didn't have any desire. And the kids kept moving. The Bulgarian kids,
as soon as they got-- their parents got
settled, they pulled the kids from the kibbutz. And then the Romanian kids came. As soon as the
Romanians got settled, they pulled the kid--
the Romanian kids. So there was a constant
transition of-- of-- of kids going through. This is something that-- that--
that people don't realize, but the kibbutz were very
unfair, because they treated-- they treated their kids
differently from the-- from the kids-- the immigration kids. We lived in the barracks
outside of the compound. We had to work six hours a--
a day and go to school for-- for two. The-- the-- the kibbutz
kids lived in nice buildings with hot water. We didn't have hot water. We had cold water. I remember taking showers
in the winter in cold water. And we had to eat
with the adults. Their kids had separate
accommodations. They had a separate kitchen. In those days, food was scarce. OK? And they treated-- they
totally separated us. And-- and for-- for, you know,
a 14, 15-year-old kid, that's-- that's very unfair. So we-- nobody was happy. That's why the
Bulgarian kids left. I didn't have any place to go. So my aunt arranged
through some connections that I could leave the kibbutz
and join the army, the Air Force, and go to a
school outside of Haifa. It was a technical school. Because I didn't have
a high school diploma. I-- I couldn't-- I was interested in-- in
learning, but I couldn't. They-- they-- they--
they kept that aside. And so I joined in the army,
and I went for a year to-- to an instrument repair-- repairman school,
a technical school. And then I was
transferred to a base in-- close to Tel Aviv. And-- and it was a
repair depot, basically, for instruments, gun
sights, things like that. And that's what I
did for two years. I was in the Israeli Air
Force for three years. In the meantime, my--
my aunt passed away. And she was
corresponding with my mom and said, you have a very
talented son who wants to learn, wants to proceed. You-- you-- my wish,
you know, my last wish is bring him to the
States if you can. And so I started the
proceedings to join her. INT: What year was this now? LP: That was 1955, 1954, '55. And it took a lot of
doing, because some of the stupid things we did. When we came there,
they asked us where-- when we came to Israel, and
they asked my father, where, where are we from, we
said we're from-- from-- from-- Yugoslavia. And he says, well,
what's your nationality? We said Croatian. So seven years later,
I go to get a passport, the Israeli government says,
well, you're a Croatian. Go to the Yugoslav Embassy. I said, I'm Jewish. I-- I was in the-- I'm in-- I was in the service. I was, you know. And they said, no, sorry. You have to-- if
you're Jewish, you have to prove that
you're Jewish. So here I am in Israel, and the
courts are rabbinical courts. So I had to prove
that I'm Jewish. So I-- INT: How did you prove it? LP: Well, [LAUGHS] you come
to-- you asked me before, and now it comes-- it comes out. So I show up at the court. And this is-- this is
like a scene from Kafka. There's three rabbis sitting
on a-- on a bimah, you know, on a-- on a podium, with-- with caps. And they have-- I don't know
why, but they had-- they had, like, hats with-- tall hats, almost like-- like a
round cylinder, in black robes. And I'm standing
there all by myself in the middle of the room. And they're asking me questions. You know, your mother,
where were you. I had to tell them my story. And they said, OK. Show us the documents, your
birth certificate-- birth certificate of your mother. And that's what they
were looking for. And I happened to
just have that. Actually, I sent the birth
certificate to my mother about a month before,
because I found it through-- at some-- at my aunt's or
at-- at-- the Slavko Brenner might have had it. And I had to write to
her to send it to me airmail back, because I needed
it for the-- for the thing. So I show them the-- Israel. They said, oh, everything
seems to be OK, but there's just one
more thing we have to do. One of them gets off the bimah,
they step in this corner, and pull your pants down. [LAUGHS] And [LAUGHS]
now you came back to-- [LAUGHS] to-- to your
original question. This is where-- where--
where-- where they were-- the first time
that I was really examined by the Israeli court. Anyway, I got my
passport, finally, and I came to the
States in 1955. INT: What was that reunion
like with your mother? LP: It was-- well, actually, I-- I was going to take a-- a--
a ship to come in, but I came under-- as a-- as a minor, and
I was just turning 21. I had, like-- it was July,
and in August, I would be 21. And so I had to change the-- the-- the way I came, and
I had to fly to the States. And the plane landed in-- in New York. Now, we had-- my
uncle, years ago, during the New York World's
Fair, came to the States. And he met this lady who kind
of turned-- took him around. And her father, they owned
Gabila's Knishes, in New York. And if you're from
New York, there were-- they-- they-- they
owned the market. And so they-- they-- they-- they-- one
of my uncles, they-- they went to see him and--
and took care of him. My-- when my mother came,
they met her at the airport. And then when I came,
they met me there. And I met the old man, Gabay. And I still remember
his business-- he had a business card. And he was King
of the Potato Pie. And I read Sinclair Lewis books,
you know, of king of the coal, and king of the
steel, and I finally met a king of industry, knishes. [LAUGHS] And [PAUSES
FOR 3 SECONDS] anyway, I stayed with them for-- for-- for a few days. And-- and the daughter
was just getting married, so she had a lot of
time on her hands. She showed me all
of New York, and I got to see the Statue of
Liberty and everything else. And I got on a plane, and
I landed in San Diego and-- and finally reunited
with my mom. And it was-- it was
a-- it was-- like, I don't know how to describe it. It was-- it was such
a-- such a good feeling. But things still lingered on. Things still lingered on. She was married to a Catholic. OK? Her-- her-- his parents were
fairly primitive people. His father was a fisherman
with a tuna fleet in San Pedro and-- and down in San Diego. And they were very-- and-- and his mother
came to the States, I don't know, maybe 10-- 10 years before the
war or something. She was still-- she was
still a peasant woman. INT: Were your brother-- brother and sister born? LP: They were Catholic. They were Catholic. INT: How old were
they when you arrived? LP: My brother was six,
and my sister was eight. And I used to take
them to the church. You know, on a Sunday, I'd
take my brother to the church. INT: What did you think of that? As a-- as a Jewish child
who'd gone through everything you did? LP: Here-- here's
one of the things. Here I was 21 years old. OK? My-- my stepfather
basically vouched for me or had to write the letters
that he would take care of me, so I wouldn't be a
burden to the state. I was a-- I was an
outsider to that family. OK? And my mother wanted
everything to be right. And she'd never told
my brother and sister. She'd-- kind of they thought I
was their cousin or something like that. It wasn't-- wasn't
totally clear to them. And she was very-- she was
very afraid of-- of admitting that she was Jewish. Now, you also have
to understand, it was right after
the McCarthy era. So-- and my stepfather was a
teacher at the high school. And his parents,
she felt, wouldn't understand, although they--
they could care less. I mean, I found out later on. They-- they-- they just loved-- they-- they didn't--
they just loved people. They didn't-- they
were good people. They were good people. And every Sunday, we
would go after church. We'd go to their house
and have dinner together. She would cook fish and whatever
he would bring from the-- and so I-- I didn't tell anybody. I-- I-- I pretended. I was back again being Catholic. I didn't say-- I didn't tell
anybody that I'm Jewish. And my stepfather said, I'll
send you to high school. I'll-- you know, you can
finish your high school. I said, no. I said, I'd rather-- I'll go into the Air Force,
because in three years, I can get my citizenship. Because I tried to get
jobs in San Diego, and I was from Yugoslavia. Around San Diego, industry
was all aerospace, and-- and I didn't have
my citizenship. And I didn't-- I spoke English fairly well,
but not-- not that well. And I didn't have a high
school diploma even. So I couldn't-- I
couldn't get a job. And so I said, look, I don't
want to be a burden, here. Plus I wasn't comfortable
in the house, because I-- I felt like I-- I was walking on eggs. My mom had a lot to do with it. Frank didn't care. He was just-- just
happy to have me there. And so I joined the Air Force. And even-- and then I was
moved to a base in Texas. And I-- I kept telling
everybody I'm Catholic, even in the Air Force. INT: Why? LP: Because I-- I
didn't want to-- I-- I-- see, I was-- I was doing it for
my mom, because I-- I was-- I was a
stranger there, OK? And-- and I-- and she had a-- she had a good life. She had the kids. And I felt that I couldn't
disturb that, that peace. I-- I-- you know. And-- and I felt-- I thought that in the
service, I didn't want to-- she-- she brainwashed it
into my head so much that-- that I didn't want to
say anything to anybody. And I was in the service
for-- in this base. And I made up
stories, OK, that I-- because I lived in Israel. I mean, I couldn't hide that. And I kept saying, no, I-- I-- that was the way to
get out of Yugoslavia, by pretending I'm Jewish. So I lied. You know. And-- and the more I lied,
the more deeper I got. And I-- I have some-- I had some very good
friends, a family, that kind of adopted me. You know, I used to
go to their house. They were Lutheran. And I kept saying, you
know, I'm Catholic. And-- and-- and they never-- I never told them
that I'm Jewish. Anyway, I couldn't
get my clearance. My clearance took forever. And I was-- couldn't work
on the airplanes, which is what I was trained to do. And so eventually, they
transferred to another base in New Jersey, where I
didn't need the clearance. In the meantime, I
got the clearance. And so when I changed the
bases, I made up my mind. I'm-- I'm not-- I didn't
like what was happening. But you know, once you
start lying, you can't-- you can't go back
to these people and say, no, I lied to
you guys all this time. So that was a good point for
me to say, this is a bunch of-- bunch of baloney, you know? I am what I am. I can-- there's no problem. I can-- I can be Jewish. And that's when I started
telling everybody the truth. INT: And when was that? LP: When I changed the bases. That was in '45, '40-- '55, '56, about '57. And then after
the-- the service, I got discharged, went back to
San Diego and started college. And-- and eventually
that led here. [LAUGHS] INT: When did you get married? LP: Oh, now you're going to-- [LAUGHS] 1960-- 1960. INT: And how did you meet your
wife, and what is her name? LP: Her name is Lenore. And the way I met her
is I had a girlfriend that was leaving town. And she said, I have to-- I-- I am leaving, but I know
of a very nice lady that-- that you want to-- want to give a call. And she was actually a cousin. And my wife taught
school in Okinawa. And on the way back,
she ended up staying. She followed a marine and
ended up staying in San Diego and broke up with him. And her father told her that she
has a cousin in-- in San Diego. And so she-- that-- that she should contact. But she was, like,
international folk dancing. So she went to
Balboa Park, where they had the folk dancing. And this man asked
her to dance with-- with him. And she danced, and he
says, oh, well, come and meet my mom and my cousin. And they started talking, and
she said she's from New York. And this lady, his
mother, said, oh, well, I have a niece from New York
that's just coming back-- that's coming back
from teaching. And that was the--
that was her-- her cousin, her father's cousin. And-- and her-- her niece was visiting
from Virginia, and she's the one
that got us together. INT: And what was her name? LP: [LAUGHS] Good question. I can't remember. My wife probably remembers. I don't remember. INT: Where-- where
did you get married? LP: We got married in San Diego. And again, we were going to just
have a simple marriage in a-- in a rabbi's office. And even-- even
then, my mother-- my-- my brother and
sister, who were older, didn't know that I'm Jewish. And her-- her-- my stepfather's parents didn't
know that we were Jewish. So we couldn't-- we couldn't
invite them to our wedding. So we have-- we had, like,
maybe 10 people in the-- for the wedding. Her parents came from New York. Her mother and father
came from New York. And my mother came, and Frank
came, and some other friends. And-- and the rabbi
said, you don't want to get married in my office. It doesn't look good. You know, look at this mess. You know, because
he had papers all-- so we got married in the
temple, which was empty, except the first row of people. INT: What did that
feel like to you to be embracing your
Judaism once again, after going back and forth with
this struggle with religion? LP: Well, see, I tried to-- again, I keep thinking
I'm, you know, I'm-- I'm totally-- totally free. And I-- I still-- I broke through that--
through the jail. And-- and the way I did it
is just to keep expanding it. And-- and in a way, in a way,
it's not threatening anymore. And you know, it-- it's not-- you have to get these
life or death decisions. And that point, if I said I
was Jewish, it meant death. It meant dying. Now it doesn't. Now-- INT: When did it-- when
did it first feel-- feel safe for you, though? LP: The first time it felt
safe is when I-- when I changed bases. When I changed from Texas,
from Carswell Air Force Base, went to McGuire, which
was in New Jersey. And at that point, again, even-- I could realize what I was doing
to myself by lying, because I-- You know, people
would ask me, well, how did your mother get married? You know, Catholic friends would
ask, how did she get married? There's no divorce in
the Catholic church. How did she separate
from your father? And, you know, I had
to make up stories. And-- and-- and some of them,
I didn't even know the answers. And I'm talking about
girlfriends that I dated. They would ask me
these questions. And-- and sometimes, you know,
I had to make up these things. And I finally got-- got tired of-- of doing that. I realized what I was doing. INT: We're going to
stop and change tapes. LP: OK. INT: --with Louis Pechi. LP: I guess, you know,
maybe-- maybe the-- probably to sum it up is
when it-- when it felt safe. You know, if it didn't,
didn't feel safe-- I-- it didn't-- you know, I, I wouldn't-- I wouldn't say it. INT: Did you practice
religion in your home after you were married? LP: No. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS] We are-- both of us were not
religious, religious. And it's interesting
that when my-- when my son was about-- became 13, he didn't say much. But then all his
friends started, started having bar
mitzvahs or were getting ready for bar mitzvahs. And he says I'd like
to have a bar mitzvah. But this was, like, six
months or before he was 13. And actually, when I came to
San Diego after the service, I started teaching at
the-- at the synagogues. I started teaching
Hebrew to support myself. And so that was my connection
with the-- with the-- with the synagogue. There was a synagogue
in Chula Vista, close to the Mexican border. And I taught their Sunday
school, and I tutored Hebrew. And that's how I put myself
through college, because I didn't have any support. And I, I ran into some
very, very strange things. In one-- in one
of the synagogues, I had a friend that was Israeli. And she, she was
teaching also Hebrew. And next thing you know, her
whole book was marked up. And the rabbi marked
it up, because she put pluses and minuses. And his thinking was you can't
put crosses in a Jewish book. He considered the pluses-- so there were a lot
of things that I didn't like on the other
end of, of the spectrum. And so I, I was never-- I was never part of
anything organized. It was a way that I was-- I didn't like being in
any organized religion, any organized organization. And I did it mostly out
of necessity, when, when, when I had to. But I, I didn't want any
part of it, so I, I didn't-- I didn't-- I raised my kids
to be human beings, not Jews, not Catholics, at least that's-- that was my view. But anyway, my son did
want to have a bar mitzvah. I said fine. Look, I speak Hebrew. Let's find out what
your passage is. We practiced. I phonetically
translated for him. And we went out and bought a cup
for wine, and we rehearsed it. And we had it in our house. INT: When-- what are the
names of your children and, and when were they born? LP: Well, Tony [? Steven ?]
Pechi, and he was born in 1962, [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] July-- [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
[LAUGHS] July 7. And then Nina Beth Pechi. And she was born in 1964, in-- May 23. [PAUSES FOR 4 SECONDS]
Tony, Tony's middle name was named after my father. INT: When did your father die? LP: My father came
to the States right after the Hungarian uprisings. I don't remember when that was. But he got-- [LAUGHS] 1960. And he was-- [PAUSES
FOR 3 SECONDS] when he went from Israel
to Italy, he was-- his friend committed
suicide because he is-- he was-- business went
bankrupt in Switzerland. And my father ended
up in a-- in a-- another refugee camp in
Salerno with a lot the-- a lot of the [NON-ENGLISH]
that escaped from Italy. So he ended up being in
the same camp with him. I visited him on my way
from, from Israel just before I came to the States. And then anyway, in
1960 he, he was able to, to come to the States
totally separately. I didn't have anything
to do with it. And he ended up
settling in Cleveland. And he was a elevator operator. He couldn't get a, a decent
job in his trade and-- because he didn't speak
English that well. And so he was-- and by that time
he was pretty sick. It was Parkinson's disease. And he died in 1963. Actually, he committed suicide. He hung himself,
because he was-- and, and this is the
mean streak in my dad. He was-- he was
starting not being able to control
his, his functions and shaking and not being
able to do anything. He was in hospital
several times and he-- INT: What kind of
impact did his death have on you after all you
had been through with him? LP: I was very bitter,
because he didn't-- he didn't leave anything. He didn't-- again, I didn't get
along with his-- with his wife. I had tremendous fights with
his wife, because she was a-- first of all, she, she
kind of pushed him out of-- out of
Yugoslavia 'cause she couldn't stand the communists. Then when they
were in Israel, she couldn't stand the Jews, OK? Then in Italy, she couldn't
stand the, the, the fascists that they were with, the
[NON-ENGLISH] that she was with. And then they finally
came to the States. And when I went
to visit them, she couldn't stand the Americans. She says, oh, give
me the communists, at least they're my own. And so there was always--
there was always-- she was not a happy woman. INT: What was her name? You've never mentioned her. LP: Mia. Mia Dokic was her first name. She came from a very prominent
[NON-ENGLISH] family. I think one of her
brothers was a-- was a bishop or something
in, in the church. So she was very, very,
very beautiful lady. Very good-looking lady. But we just clashed
all the time. Anyway, he passed away,
and, and the effect on me was mostly I was bitter, because
there was no communications. Why? You know, if you let me
know, I would have helped. I would have done something. But there was never-- it was-- it was
just, just a break. And later on, she
sent me a letter. And it's kind of sad,
because he, he wanted-- he wanted his-- he
wanted to be cremated. It was his last will
that he did write. And no mention of me,
but just, just taking-- he says I want my
ashes scattered in my beautiful Sarajevo. And I just found it, and
I thought to myself, yeah. 'Cause she took the urn. My, my stepmother took the urn. And she couldn't-- she couldn't
do it in Yugoslavia when she went back. And so he was-- ended up--
his ashes are in a grave-- in a-- in a family grave in
Zagreb, which still survives. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] I-- we were there. I took the-- my wife and Nina. And my, my-- well,
my grandfather's not buried there, obviously,
because he, he passed away. But her mother was buried there. My grandmother, my grandfather
from Father's side. And they have plaques for the
people that were killed in, in the-- in the camps. And then my father
is buried there. INT: How do you think your
experiences affected the way you raised your children? LP: I, I always keep saying I
raised them as human beings. I, I raised them to look at
people, not to be judgmental. I never understood the
concept, or at least I, I don't see the concept. You know, I talk to some
people, and they say, I hate the Germans. I hate the Germans. I, I can't grasp that concept. It's, it's people. They're, they're good
Germans, they're bad Germans. They're, they're German
Germans, same as Israelis. They're good Israelis. They're bad Israelis. They're-- they're-- I always-- I always look, look
for the good in people. And, and I try to-- I try to let them-- let them know that. There's good in every person. I was lucky through
my life, I met-- I met some good people and,
and people that helped. And that's how I
tried to raise them. And, and thank
goodness, they're very-- they've grown up to be
very sensitive people. My daughter is
very, very caring. She lives in Florence now. She's-- belongs to the
synagogue in Florence. She pretty much helps run
the English-speaking group. My son ended up
marrying-- he always said, I'll marry a Jewish girl. That's all I'll marry. He ended up marrying
a Catholic girl. [LAUGHS] Lovely. They were married by
a priest and a rabbi. Actually, I liked the priest
better than the rabbi [LAUGHS] at their wedding. But he was a Spanish-- very feisty individual. Spoke perfect Hebrew. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And
they have a young boy, Danny. INT: What is his name? LP: Danny Pechi. INT: What is your
daughter-in-law's name? LP: Carole [? Laudy ?]
is her name. And her parents are from, from
German and Irish extraction. Her mother is very religious. And they're raising Danny
[PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] to be aware of his Catholic
heritage and Jewish heritage. INT: Did you raise your
children with the awareness of what your experiences were? Did you tell them your story? LP: I told them-- I told them the stories. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
But I didn't-- I didn't push it on
[? them. ?] I didn't-- I didn't-- I told them when
they asked me about it or they wanted to know. But in many cases, it
was really just a story. It wasn't, wasn't the feelings. And, and as you can
see, it's the story has, has the soundtrack,
which are the feelings. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS] And,
and those I tend to suppress. I don't let them out
that, that often. But they do come out
when they feel like it. [LAUGHS] INT: If there was a message that
you could give to your children or to your grandchild or
any future grandchildren or to future generations,
what would you say? LP: I would say there
is good in everybody. And if you look-- if you look for it, it's there. INT: Is there anything
that you would like to add about your experiences? LP: [SIGHS] I think I'm very
lucky, a very lucky person. I've had-- I feel
I've been lucky. I mean it's, it's,
it's, it's almost like taking the right
turns in life somehow and, and having maybe people
telling me the right way to go. And I consider myself lucky. I live in a-- in
a gorgeous place. I, I have a beautiful family. I have a beautiful wife,
and, and we get along fine. We have friends. We have-- I don't have to worry. I mean, I worry about
things, but I basically don't have any
major major worries. I'm comfortable. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
And maybe that's a happy ending to a--
to a complicated story. INT: Thank you very much. LP: Thank you. INT: Mr. Pechi, can you
please introduce this woman next to you? LP: OK. Right next to me is my wife,
[? Lenny, ?] of 37 years, [? we've been ?] together. LENORE PECHI: 38. LP: [LAUGHS] 38. [LAUGHTER] Time goes on when
you're having fun. INT: Is there anything
that you would like to say? LENORE PECHI: Yes,
I-- well, first, I wanted to tell you how
proud I am that you really had this breakthrough with
the feelings that came out from when you were a child. So much of this would just
fade into an old brown tone photograph that, in
time, unless you really get connected to the
emotions of the survivors. And to me, a survivor transcends
all the horrors around him, all the horrors of the Holocaust
or the life that you've had. And it's this spirit that
connects all of humanity, so that I feel connected. It's not only Lou's
story, but it's my story and our children's
story and even people who are not Jewish. It's their story,
too, because when they hear the feelings
and the emotions, this isn't just part of history. It's people that, that
you love and know. And it just brings me
closer, not only to him, but to everyone else, who-- whose spirit you could
feel from their stories. So I'm very proud of you that
you were able to do this. And it's beautiful,
because this is no longer just a bedtime story,
as my daughter said. But it's her father
living through this again. And it's a wonderful journey. And it's difficult
to have taken. And that-- for that,
I am grateful that we have this for our
children to hear and see. And I just love you,
and I'm glad that this was able to take place. LP: And I'm glad that I was able
to talk about it and, and put it-- put it in a-- put it in video and then
record it and, and record some of the-- some of the
feelings that I tried to push, push down that keep coming up
every, every once in a while. LENORE PECHI: And
what's beautiful is we have many friends who love Lou. And they just kept saying,
it's his spirit that we love. And now connection, it's like
a thread to his whole life. And that's the spirit that,
that they see shining through. And it's a very beautiful thing. And it just makes us all
feel a part of your life. So thank you. LP: Thank you. INT: Thank you. LENORE PECHI: That's it. LP: OK. This picture is taken
for Purim about 1911. My mom is seated
right to the right. INT: What's her name? LP: Her name is
Piroska, [? Pirika. ?] INT: And her last
name at that time? LP: At that time was Sidon. And the lady in the middle is
my grandmother, who I never met. She passed away
before I was born. The only name that
I know her from is Anyuka, which in
Hungarian means mother. And that's what
my mom called her. And she passed away when
my mom was 12 years old. The gentleman next
to her is my uncle. His name is Larry in
English, but we called him [? Ladsy, ?]
Ladislav in Yugoslav. And the boy sitting right in
the middle is my uncle Mark. And we called him [? Martzy. ?] INT: Where was it taken? LP: This was taken in Slavonski
Brod, where my mom was born and my father-- my grandfather owned the,
the, the only furniture store in town. And that's where my, my
mother's father lived. And that's the town that also
my, my father's family lived. And that's, I think,
how, how they met. So they became good friends. OK. This is Ljubo in Zagreb. And I, I used to love to
wear and carry my, my rifle. And the policeman on the
corner was my friend. And I used to salute him
and he would salute me. And one of my aunts
tells me that, that when I would get mad, I
would take my rifle and point it and say, [NON-ENGLISH],,
I'll shoot you. And that was my way of-- [LAUGHS] INT: What year was this taken? LP: This was taken in 1938, '39. INT: And what was your
full name at the time? LP: My name was-- at that
time was Ljubomir Peci, but I was always known as
Ljubo or diminutive Ljubchek. This is Ljubomir Peci, Ljubo. This is myself, taken
just before the break of the war of 1941. INT: Where? LP: I assume it was
taken in Zagreb, the town that I lived in. This is a picture taken
by my aunt or my-- by my aunt, as a matter of
fact, of my cousin volunteering to work in a-- in a camp. And that was the [INAUDIBLE]
that they used to round up all the able-bodied people. And this-- INT: What was your
cousin's name? LP: My cousin's name
was Srecko Tkalcic. INT: And which was your
aunt that took the picture? LP: And-- Rusha,
Roshica Tkalcic. INT: And-- LP: And they-- [PAUSES
FOR 3 SECONDS] he was-- at that time, he was
about 20, probably 22, 23. He was going to the university. And some other people
with him are his friends. In the background,
if you look at it, there is a [NON-ENGLISH]
soldiers with a rifle on his shoulder. INT: What year was this taken? LP: This was taken in 1941. INT: And what city? LP: In the-- the city is Zagreb. They are-- they
are headed to a-- basically a concentration
camp, Jasenovac. This is a picture of
the, the, the sign that all the Jews in
Zagreb had to wear. And all the adults had to
wear it prominently displayed on their coats. And it's a, a metal circle
with yellow with the letter Z in the middle, and a hook-- INT: What does it mean? LP: And [NON-ENGLISH],, it's
pronounced [NON-ENGLISH] in Serbo-Croatian. And it means [NON-ENGLISH],,
which means Jew. INT: What year did you get this? LP: This was-- this we
had to wear in 1941. There came a
proclamation that said that all the Jews
have to wear that when they are out on the street. OK. This is a picture of Ljubo,
Ljubomir Peci, myself, Ljubo, taken around 1942. [PAUSES FOR 3 SECONDS]
It was the picture of the first communion that I
took while hiding as a Catholic with my aunt in Slavonski Brod. OK. This is a picture of my mom,
Piroska Peci, and my father, Stjepan Peci, taken in
Treviso, where we were-- they were interned
as [NON-ENGLISH],, which means that they had to
stay in the city and report to the police. And they couldn't-- they were
not allowed to leave the town. And-- INT: What year was this? LP: The picture was
taken 1942, '43. This picture was taken in 1941,
'42, while we were in Venice. This was right after
[NON-ENGLISH] revolted against the, the Germans. And we were not required to be-- we were free citizens
and could move around. So we moved to, to Venice. And that's myself, Ljubo Peci,
and my mom, Piroska Peci. And we're on Piazza San Marco
in Venice just before the, the German occupied the city. OK. This is a picture of my father,
taken somewhere in Yugoslavia. Looks like a coastal town. He-- his name is Stjepan Peci. And he, he is in a
partisan uniform. He joined the partisans as
managing the motor pool. INT: What year was it taken? LP: This was taken in 1944, '45. 1945, after the-- This is a picture of my
grandfather, Ljudevit Peci. He is my father's father. This was taken on his
80th birthday around 1950. And he's seated with the-- his grandchildren,
great-grandchildren, my cousin Hanzi's daughter
and my cousin Greta-- Greta's daughter on his right. INT: Do you know their names? LP: The, the little
baby is [? Mariana. ?] And I don't remember
the name of my, my, my male cousin's
daughter, Hanzi. INT: Where was it taken? LP: This was taken in Zagreb
for his 80th birthday in a-- OK. This picture was
taken around 1949-- '45-- '49-- '50. [LAUGHS] OK, it's
taken about '50. It's hard to remember. It was sent-- '54? [PAUSES FOR 5 SECONDS] No, no. That's-- that's not--
this was taken in 1950-- '55 or so. My sister is, is seated-- my half-sister is
seated on the left side. And there is Frank Petrich, my
stepfather, who married my mom, and Tom, who is, is my
brother, half-brother. He's seated on the
right-hand side. INT: What's your
half-sister's name? LP: Her name is [? Katarina. ?] INT: Where was it taken? LP: And this was
taken in San Diego in the backyard of our house. This is a picture of
myself, Louis Pechi, and my wife, Lenore, taken about
three months after our wedding, after everybody asked us
for a wedding picture. And this was taken
in 1960 in San Diego. OK. This is a picture
of my mom and-- Piroska Petrich. And on the right-hand--
she's on the left. And on the right is our
daughter Nina Pechi. And this was taken at my
son's wedding in 1994. INT: Where? LP: In, in the Chicago area,
in the suburbs of Chicago. This picture was taken in 1994. It's the wedding of Carole
[? Laudy ?] to Tony Pechi. And it was taken
outside of Chicago. And this is a picture
of Danny Pechi. He is the son of
Carole and Tony Pechi. This was taken in 1998. INT: Where? LP: He's just about 15, 15
months old in that picture. INT: Where was it taken? LP: And this was
taken in Chicago.
