A Catholic Priest's Journey To Islam with Said Abdul Latif (Fr. Hilarion Heagy)

Hello everyone and welcome to Blogging Theology  today I'm delighted to talk to Said Abdul Latif   you're most welcome sir assalamualaikum alaikum  salaam thank you for having me Paul it's a real   pleasure to see you it's a pleasure to be here.  for those who don't know as a Catholic priest   and monk father Hilarion Heagy recently converted  to Islam his new Muslim name is Said Abdul Latif   when news of his conversion became public his  name was the number one trending Google search   item in the Arab world at that time today for  the first time Said will share the story of   his extraordinary journey from Christianity  to Islam and recently Said you wrote on your   blog the following beautiful words I think you  wrote all of life is a pilgrimage, all of life   is a seeking of that primordial Oneness of God  a yearning towards the one who is our beginning   our end our all and everything end quote. and  I find it fascinating that the Quran says this   you will find that the nearest in affection  towards the believers are those who say we   are Christians because there are priests and monks  among them and because these people are not given   to arrogance that's Kron 582. and another place  we read it is Allah who guides whoever he wills   and he knows best who are fit to be guided Ouran  28 56. so Said could you possibly share something   of your spiritual journey as a Catholic priest and  Monk and how you came to be interested in Islam. certainly a long it was a long journey for  me and I shared a bit of that in my blog I feel that you know I was raised a  sort of nominal Protestant Christian   um but even if my family was nominally Christian  if they were nominally Christian themselves I   always really took to religion and to faith  I spent a lot of time as a child in my room   reading my Bible and studying it praying and  just a researching religion and the faith uh   it's always been a deep passionate interest for  me which eventually led me into the monastery but of course you know is Islam I didn't have  any real exposure to Islam until I was in college   and until actually and this is this is a story  that's uh similar to a lot of uh Muslim converts   in the United States my first real exposure  I would say was 9 11 actually really so yeah   that's pretty bad yeah it is pretty bad but yeah  before that my my only understanding of Islam came   from the film not without my daughter I don't  know if people remember that but it was a it was   a sort of a propaganda film that came out in the  early 90s I think and the painted Islam in a very   poor light but yeah I was in college when 9 11  happened and like a lot of Americans   you know we we started to question you know  what is Islam what is you know why did this happen   etc etc so uh I went to I was at University  of Pittsburgh and um about a month or two after   that event the local Islamic Center had a  open house so they invited everybody in the   community and surrounding Community to come  they shared a meal they had talks about Islam   um and that was really my first exposure and  from there I started to take classes at University   of Pittsburgh on Islamic civilization and  that was my first in these classes um we not   only read about Islam but I heard for the first  time the recitation of the Quran and it really   yeah I I know there are there are stories that  people convert simply by hearing the recitation   of the Quran and for me that was that was  a very strong I felt a very strong pool just   hearing the recitation of the Quran in Arabic and  yeah that was my that would be around that was   uh the spring in 2002. wow and so I it was  shortly after that I you know I started to   learn more about Islam and then I discovered  a big thing for me I think I discovered um Sufism   and what was it um the the poems of  of Rumi and at the time I was going   through personally a sort of uh agnostic phase  in my life so I was raised nominally Protestant   and I would look around in protestantism  in America and what I would see I felt   something was missing there wasn't there wasn't a  connection with a tradition or a past it seemed to   be a kind of consumer mentality you know it was  quite individualistic sometimes yeah right it's   very individualistic it's very like they're trying  to sell you something in a sense value Heaven you   just got to say yeah and yeah yeah to get to  heaven yeah yeah I would go to these sort of   revivals and they'd be kind of rock concerts with sort of Christianity plugged into it   and I felt like you know whatever Christianity is  whatever I'm reading in the Bible this isn't this   doesn't seem this isn't it so I went on the search  I I became a sort of agnostic as a teen not in the   sense that I didn't believe in God but I I felt  that the truth was there and I had to find it   you know so I studied all different religions  and all their philosophies I wanted to you know   start from scratch to figure it out myself or what  the truth was so part of this openness you know   was an openness to Islam and and discovering the  depth of the spiritual life in Sufism and in   the poetry of Rumi and that was something that  really appealed to me back in my college years   and I was really attracted to Islam back then and  I made a connection with the Imam at the time here   at the Islamic Center and he connected me with  other people like-minded people at the Islamic   Center and by by this point it's 2003. and I  felt you know I felt really drawn to convert   at that time in 2003 to Islam but back  then for me and I think it was part of   you know my own flawed thinking at the time  I felt that for social reasons and you know there was something you know having grown up  Christian I felt that there was to make this   move into Islam I wouldn't of necessity  would have to you know quote reject Christ   and I think that was a flawed understanding back  then but it was something you know I you know it   wasn't just a and I felt like it was a line  that I couldn't cross at the time at the time   then was the post-911 United States yes yeah the  animosity towards Muslims and Muslim communities   in America and globally was extraordinary  and you know for you to convert to Islam wasn't   just a private religious change of Allegiance  it would mean an existential civilizational   change and that's a thing to do in America in  America of all places yeah absolutely I think   there still is a clash of civilizations sort of  um thing that goes on with a conversion to Islam   because I think even now you know I think these  are a lot better than they were post 9 11. no   but even now I think you know for someone in the  west to become to go from Christianity to atheism   for example I think it's much more socially  acceptable and then from Christianity to   Islam because I think there is a sort of clash of  civilizations aspect to it which I don't think is   fair actually but I think that is the  mindset but certainly back then you know    I think like what would my family think what would  my friends you know I would be socially outcasts   etc so so I you know I living in Pittsburgh  and going to University of Pittsburgh   um and feeling drawn towards uh you know hearing  the Quran chanting in Arabic uh the next best   thing for me and I was I was taking classes on  Orthodox Christianity oh I felt I found a depth in   theology spirituality spiritual life in Orthodox  Christianity and in in the deeper Western   tradition as well that I didn't know existed  growing up as a Protestant which I discovered also   in college and um just two blocks from my house uh  was it was it's close to where I live now actually   the antiochian Orthodox Cathedral um so I would  I would go there and I knew the priests and I would attend Services there and it was really  beautiful and they chanted a lot of times they   would chant The Divine Liturgy in Arabic wow so I felt that if I wasn't to become   Muslim then I would find here at least something  similar actually in the in the chanting of the   um Divine Liturgy in Arabic and in the depth of  uh you know the Orthodox tradition So eventually   I became Orthodox and for a brief  period of time I was Catholic originally   and I never really saw a huge disagreement  between Catholic and you know the Catholic   church and Orthodoxy my own family history  my family was largely we were largely Catholics   going back generations even though I was  raised Protestant my father's father was German   Presbyterian which is an actual thing there's a  German Presbyterian church so but outside of that   that's why I was raised Presbyterian but outside  of that my family was all Catholic essentially   right and in my family um there aren't many  practicing Catholics per se but I had two   great aunts one on my father's side and one of my  mother's side that were that were nuns and they're   still very well known nuns in Pittsburgh now they  died uh one in 1989 one 1997 um but uh but there   um there there is a there's there's a strong  Catholic background in my family so so initially   I felt you know this draw towards Orthodox  Christianity but Orthodoxy is very um you   know the churches are well you mean there's the  Russian Orthodox Greek Orthodox Serbian Orthodox   they tend to be sort of nationalized yeah  nationalists big church in Egypt which is   another Orthodox Church yeah um Nation orientated  rather exactly yeah we're seeing around the pope   yeah we're seeing the the fruits of that a  bit more now with the sort of the the schism I'm not sure if it's a full-blown Schism right  now but between Moscow and the um ecumenical   patriarch the Greeks and the Russians etc  and all of this is a is a is a legacy of the   the great schism 1054 when the Orthodox in the  east in the Eastern Roman Empire broke away from   the what became you know the Roman Catholic  Church in the West but the the Orthodox   Church is sort of uh started formed in sort of  national churches in a sense so initially for me   I felt you know my background and my family  background was Roman Catholic uh we I'm not   Greek or Serbian or Russian or any of these things  so I briefly was Roman Catholic uh for a while   before I became orthodox um and  yeah and it was difficult you know   I was uh this was in 2005. um and I think you  know at the time this was during the time of um   Pope Benedict uh and he he just started his  reforms uh to you know bring back the the Latin   mass and whatnot which but at the time  you know there wasn't really any Latin mass   in the area that I could go to and uh  the local church that I was going to   um the liturgy was not very good the Roman  Catholic Church um and the priest was very   liberal there was nobody there my age as a you  know a college student yeah um and like I said   right down the street was a Orthodox Cathedral  um there were a lot of young people there a lot   of people interested in Orthodox and monasticism  So eventually you know I went there and became   it just be it felt like a natural thing like  uh to go there and just become Orthodox and so   that initially there was no like rejection of the  papacy I wasn't re-baptized or anything um so    yeah so very early on I felt you know um this  move from you know protestantism into Catholicism   and Orthodoxy I felt like the Catholic church at  one point the whole church was one and you know   had divided over the years and I felt that you  know the division was the main cause of that   division was essentially sin and uh and I worked  uh I you know before I entered the monastery which   was in 2009 I did a lot of work to try to  you know bring together Catholics and Orthodox   and dialogue and just a working friendship I  think on the ground so I was very interested in um I guess Christian unity and in the sense of um moving towards a wholeness which I feel  that uh Christianity had largely lost I think   through through the years literally tens of  thousands of Christians in the world is quite   extraordinary we think of Islam you think  that there's a Sunni uh majority and then   you get Shia and other kind of stuff right  but in Christianity is tens of thousands of   denominations all around the world is massively  more splintered and split up and that's been   the case reasons the first century since the  time of Paul and so on we've had these split   yeah yes so yeah so that was my early um that was  my early religious life in my 20s I think and and   all through this and I talk about this in my blog  all through this time you know I'm I'm trying to   make sense of uh of Islam how it fits in uh and  it's and it's it's all through the news because   you know the war in Iraq the war in Afghanistan is  going on uh and you hear stories about continues   are they confused on the one hand you have a  clearly an appreciation of Rumi that this popular   um you know Muslim poet he was a  jurist he was a you know he was a   um for many centuries ago another hand you're  constantly being fed a diet of of war hatred   terrorist narratives coming from Fox News and CNN  and whatever as an American so what's going on in   your head are you presumably quite conflicted  perhaps with these kind of these antagonistic   images they're positive and the extremely negative  so it must have been quite quite confusing time   I think it's I think it was confusing for a lot of  people because I think what were presented as   Islam and the media and even from other Muslims  themselves I think sometimes actually is not   necessarily what Islam is traditionally so  when I discovered Romeo I discovered Sufism   uh I understood I would actually I actually  sought out you know sufis American   sufis which most of the time I got  these sort of um and I said this in my blog too   we sort of these sort of the hippies yeah from  the 1960s that very much of anything I think   yes yeah they really had nothing to do with  Islam so I realized that you know true Sufism   was only possible within traditional Islam  and anything outside of that was just not   really Sufism or something else yeah so when  I would seek out these you know yeah it was   It was kind of difficult because I think you  know even now there's a sort of mindset   within like this stricter salafist you  know understanding of Islam astrophism is very   questionable or maybe even dangerous but uh I  I think that was a key for me to work out and it   took a while to work this out to understand the  place of Sufism in Islam and and to see that you   know traditionally up until maybe you know the  1700s or so Sufism was essentially   you know went hand in hand with what  normative traditional Islam was and it was just   it was just simply it was just simply the the  I don't want to say the mystical expression of   Islam but it was it was the deeper um spiritual  understanding of the faith so there is the you   know the exoteric the the exoteric faith you know  which which everyone follows her is expected to   follow you have to follow it's you know it's  the the body of the faith uh the seven pillar   the pillars of Islam you know saying the Salah  prayers and whatnot and um this is just sort of   the basic understanding of Islam and then there's  this deeper mystical spiritual side to it which uh   which is like this the spirit of the body of Islam  and uh so I think when I would seek out um Islam   early on I would see uh these two aspects of Islam  that were often I felt divorced from each other   um you'd have the the sort of the hippie sufis  on one side and um sometimes the very strict   sort of more selfless leaning understanding on  the other and it took a while for me to to   see how the two kind of merged together  in a traditional understanding of Islam   so yeah and it wasn't until fairly recently  that I began to understand this and um   so all through my 20s yes it was it was  being fed this constant uh media Narrative of   you know Islam is evil and it's going to take  over the west and Sharia law in America is   right around the corner I mean how many times have  we heard that back in the 2000s in the early 2010s   that we were going to live in Sharia law in the  United States if we didn't stop you know Islam now   and now look at the state of the state of things  here I think we're pretty far from Sharia law   yeah and of course the the term Sharia or Sharia  law in America and often in the west conjures up   images of hand chopping and Stony and whatnot  which of course is a complete travesty that's   not what I'm not sure is about it's about about  everything from prayer to charity to inheritance   to exactly yeah criminal law is a it's a tiny  fraction of the overall body of uh Islamic law   and even the Hadoop punishments then there are  very strict conditions upon them they're not   just implemented right they'll go down that path  but there's some excellent articles uh Professor   Jonathan Brown has written uh a very eloquently  and insightfully about a correct understanding   of the dude punishments in Islam they're not  what the West think they are um they're very   popular terrifies people in the west um but  there's not really any correct or informed   understanding of Islam unfortunately right yeah  and I think that's a big um that's a big obstacle   uh for a lot of people in the west to understand  Islam is is this a caricature of Islam that's sort   of presented to us um that really has nothing to  do with what what traditional Islam yeah is um yes so I yeah one of the things I did uh I  used to there was a Blog there were a number   of in the 2010s uh I I entered the monastery  in 2009. well that was what I was asking about   can you just tell us very briefly what is a  monastery Monastery is a place so monasticism   started in roughly around the 4th Century in  Egypt um the uh Christian so Christians and   early Christianity to be a Christian you profess  you know Christ you know profess Christianity   that would often be a death sentence that you  would be um you know you'd be sent to the arena   so to speak you know to uh so so in early  Christianity you know to profess your faith   um it you know you would you would often give  everything you'd give your life and so once   uh the Roman Empire became Christian itself  uh there was no longer that really radical   um expression of of Faith so everyone was  Christian at that point so so uh there   are men and women you know to give their life  radically to to Christ or to God they would go out   in the desert and uh live a life of um prayer and  repentance and uh a monk comes from the Greek word   Monaco's which means one so you would be solid  you know oftentimes you would you would think that   there was in the world there was only you and God  and you lived your life totally dedicated to God   and so that's what a monastery was and that's  what it is and you would often go out into the   desert so to speak to live a life free of you  know sort of earthly distractions you wouldn't   be married you wouldn't have like an outside job  and you would just live a life dedicated to   prayer and repentance and in the early days in  in Egypt the beginning of monasticism it was often   solitary men and women that would go out into the  desert and then it once more people started to   do that community started to form and so now  a monastery is essentially you know a community   of people that are living a very particular  way of life that it you know the monastery   exists to Free People of distractions so that  they can focus solely on prayer and repentance so   in in the Christian context now especially in the  Catholic and Orthodox content context uh if you   were to give your life you know most radically  to God you would do so often in the context of   a monastery you know you give up everything  as it says in the gospels Christ said in the   gospels you know if you wish to be perfect go  and sell everything you own and follow me and so   that's what I did I I didn't really have anything  to begin with so I was in my 20s and I left   everything and went to the monastery in 2009.  so this was an orthodox Monastery rather yes it was it in California or this was in  West Virginia or Virginia and it's a it's it's   I was the I was the guest Master there for a while  and uh I would often tell people um that we were   the largest uh English-speaking Orthodox  men's Monastery in the universe in America you met a funny bit but we actually were as far as  I know I don't know what's on other planets but uh   but yeah we were at the time I think they  still are now but it's a wonderful Monastery it's   just uh this is a wonderful men there um so how  many monks were there in this largest Monastery in   the universe English speaking the largest things  yeah if you go to Russia or Mount Athos there are   monasteries with hundreds of monks you know  very large but as far as English speaking we were   we were the largest one okay um when I when I went  there in 2009 there were there were only 12 monks   and then over the years it doubled to about  24 26 or so which isn't very big but but as far   as uh Orthodox monasticism in the United States  um is still very small actually but it's it's   growing but yeah what was I gonna  say so yeah so I entered the monastery 2009   and my best friend who was a Orthodox Christian  from California he when I entered the monastery he   went into the Navy uh and he has a really great  mind for languages and he started learning Arabic   in the Navy Language School and he mastered  Arabic and he became a translator for the US   government for the Navy so we had a lot  of interesting conversations because we were   both you know on the sides interested in Islam  and while I was at the monastery and he was   translating again this was in the early 2010s all  this sort of uh jihadist sort of stuff coming out   of uh you know ISIS and things and we would have  these conversations about Islam and uh and back   then you know I I describe it as a sort of a a lovely relationship with with Islam so what so   there were things that I would see in Islam that  I thought were very beautiful but then again I   would see these other things and I would read you  know I read really deeply uh a lot of the anti   is Islamic um rhetoric uh I forget some of the  names but I think you mentioned Robert Spencer   you Robert Spencer yes American I think he was  Catholic uh writer for Knox now or whatever uh   yeah particularly bitter towards Islam yeah  very bitter a book called the sword of the   Prophet by a Serbian author and so yeah  I was I was really uh weighing in you know I tried to get both sides of the story in a sense uh  so so I would I would oscillate between a sort of   admiration for Islam on one hand and then uh very  critical attitude towards Islam on the on you know   I would oscillate between these two and and I  would have these conversations with my friend   um my best friend who was uh translating  again a lot of the things coming from Isis   and these extremists on behalf of US  government is translating from Arabic   um uh for intelligence purposes presumably  Isis material and Al-Qaeda material uh for   the US government and he's a friend of yours so  what what happens because I actually know that I   know what happened to him but what happened  to him what happened to him yeah well yeah   uh well you know for me a lot of a lot of  things sort of came together in in the past year   um you know these making these connections  and reading deeper into Islam and discovering   uh a lot of additional sources I didn't know like  Abdul hakimarad like Tim winter and whatnot oh   yeah uh so I finally everything sort of clicked  for me at one point and I just realized that this   is sort of what I believe um last year actually  uh yeah yeah so so at the same time when I was uh   um going through my own thought processes  right my friends started uh he started   messaging me um these sort of cryptic messages  like he would say like oh you know I I'm thinking   he would he said to me one day he said you  know I'm thinking of memorizing the Quran I   said like why why would you do that yeah so I  could witness to Muslims Muslims better and I   was like all right okay and then so you would  send me these uh sort of cryptic messages and   then and at some point we sort of uh I guess  like came out to each other is secretly Muslim   in a sense in our private police and so yeah he  uh he yeah he converted to Islam at the same time   that I did really internally but but completely  independent of me so he was yeah that was one   of the things that I felt you know because I  thought you know am I just reading into this   or am I trying to convince myself of something  you know uh trying to be critical of my own um I I don't know questioning my own motivations  my myself you know but the fact that he uh became   Muslim and reached the same conclusions as I did  at the same time that I did uh sort of I I felt   that I felt that um not legitimized but it it I  felt that there was definitely something going on   beyond my own uh thought process that you know  they're they're you know God's grace the grace   of Allah the guidance of Allah had had brought us  to the same place you know and it wasn't simply   my thinking not reading myself into something you  know I quoted the desire from the Quran earlier   um it is Allah who guides whoever he wills and  he knows best who are fit to be guided and I   like from this uh translation and I mentioned  this translation that's one of those that you   specifically reference on your blog that  was helpful to you in English translation   um so that's what that verse is translated  from that's a beautiful verse yeah yeah so my   best friend had become Muslim at the same  time that I did but but that it was just   uh yeah it was just amazing to me that he had  reached the same conclusions that I had to and   in and he more than anybody I felt was a you know  a spiritual brother to me we were sort of like a   soul mates in a in a spiritual sense and yeah the  fact that he had reached the same conclusion sort   of um I felt sealed the deal for me I felt that  it was something something was real there and not yeah I can see how that'd be a huge uh  confirmation of the the authenticity um yes   what you were going to when I trusted friend who  was a spiritual guide or spiritual companion uh   also experienced that I can see why that would  help be helpful to you but I'm interested you   you weren't just a monk you became a priest as  well other things yeah there's yeah there's a   um yeah there's a lot of misunderstanding I think  you know if Americans and uh Christians have a a   large misunderstanding for Islam I think you  know it's true that I think a lot of Muslims   might not understand Christianity in uh in in  certain aspects so uh and I say that because   you know I watched as uh all these sort of news  stories broke about me converting to Islam and   uh there's a confusion about you know monasticism  you know as a priest is he a monk et cetera Etc   uh so yeah to to go to a monastery a monastic  uh vocation is uh you don't necessarily go to   be a priest and actually yeah so it's not like  a um it's not like a seminary where you go and   um you specifically go and you train for a number  of years and then you're ordained and then you go   to a parish but a monastery you just simply  go to live a life of a prayer and repentance   Etc and so that's what I did so I didn't um  intend to be a priest uh that wasn't my goal   I just wanted to live a life relatively  you know sort of obscure you know you   leave the world and you go and you just  focus on your own salvation and prayer   and that was my intent um but uh pretty uh  quickly probably too quickly I think uh I was uh   normally this is the first part of  monasticism lasts for three years   um uh but mine lasted two years and then after  the my third year I was ordained as a priest   and so which is pretty quick so I was yeah yeah  I mean it takes many years I'm trained to be a   doctor or something and uh takes lots of years of  study of Theology and philosophy and so on but uh   you obviously you show great talent to promise  and you were fast tracked through it perhaps   yeah there there is a monk I think a wise monk  at the monastery who said um uh it was kind of   a joke but he said if uh if you don't want to  do something uh uh just uh what did he say he   said if you don't want to do something just do  a bad job and they won't ask you to do it again   but so and then you could then you're free  to go and and pray and you know be left   alone but I think when I went there you know  I guess I I proved myself to be competent so   um I was put in charge of uh you know all sorts  of different things you know the gift shop you   know the business aspects because we sold  and made soap and incense and lots of things   uh uh and uh you know I was the guest master  um I just had I did a lot of the printing work   um so yeah pretty early on um I was just put in  charge of a lot of aspects of the monastery and so   you know one day you're living in the world you're  just a guy in the world in the world so to speak   and you know the next day you're a priest monk you  know and a spiritual father you know in charge of   uh you know all these aspects of monastic life  and it's it's you know it's pretty quick and   for me it was really stressful I think because  I am by nature a very kind of a reserved and shy   introvert so even doing interviews is really  difficult for me so I appreciate very much open way today the timing  of it for Ramadan is yeah   yes when you know when the whole thing this the  whole thing hit recently well I'll get into that   later but I've sort of been in hiding just this  overwhelming which I really appreciate you   know a lot of the support that I'm beginning  recently but it's been it's been quite a   surreal for me recently that's something that's  something I could talk about in a minute but uh   but yeah in the monastery so I was  ordained in 2013 and I love monastic life   there was a bit of burnout after a while I think  because I would be you know I'd be up from you   know 4 a.m when I start my private prayers and  then we start prayers in church at 5 00 a.m and   that would last until 6 30 7 30. and we'd be in  church about a third of the waking day I think   um and then and then the rest of it was largely  you know work so that would do a lot of work   and I was taking classes online Seminary  classes, so I get up at 4am and then uh a lot   of times I wouldn't get to bed until 10 11 12 at  night and wow and get up and do it again that's   incredible so there was an element of burnout  I think for me as a young young priest month   and there wasn't really any vacation  from that was that's what you did   from day to day and but I loved  monastic life I was very I you know I put my   up until the very end so to speak I took my  my duties and my responsibilities very   seriously and including my responsibilities  I and I felt the responsibility I had to   other people because when you're a priest  you are you know there's a saying that   a priest is not his own person so you live your  life in the context of the monastery you live a   life of obedience so you don't do your own will  you you are obedient to your spiritual Superior   to your habit to your elders you know and then  you are obedient towards other people so as a   priest you live to serve other people pastorally  and otherwise you know but mostly pastorally   which it just means spiritually and um you  know whatever the other person's needs are   I just need to know during this time as a  priest and a monk in this Monastery were you   still thinking about Islam were you still reading  or well you're completely detached from all that   uh I was in the background um because simply  because you know it was my own personal interest   and also I was trying to make sense still  of what was going on you know in the world   essentially so it was it was always sort of  in the background and of course I just didn't   have time a lot of well no I'm just so busy  doing you have a chance to do anything else so   but I love so I love monastic life uh  but you know I couldn't you know I was   also paying attention to what was going on  in the Orthodox Church in a larger scale we where I was in Orthodoxy we had a very strict  understanding of the church so there's this idea   that the body of Christ is one and the  church is one and um and so we believed that   the church in Rome the Roman Catholic Church when  the Schism in 1054 happened they cut themselves   off from the body of Christ so so there's this  belief it was it was a more it was a stricter   understanding of ecclesiology that the Roman  Catholic church had no Grace had no sacraments at   all's not a Christian the Catholics yeah there's a  saying that the pope is an orthodox peasant   is higher than the pope or something like that  well that's but that's a that's it that's you   know that's a that's a strict understanding  of it not all Orthodoxy and believes that and   um so but we did and I you know over time  adopted this ecclesiology at the monastery   but then you know I started to really question  that especially with a pope Benedict's reforms and   the bringing back the Latin mass and I could see  in the Roman Catholic Church you know all these   um younger people you know coming to the church  and this this flourishing of the traditional   liturgy and it really seemed to me that uh you  know there was something going on there and   but so essentially I felt that you know I where  I was in Orthodoxy was becoming increasingly   insular and more increasingly nationalistic  because it was Russian Orthodox and in 2016   the Orthodox tried to hold a council which  they called The Great and Holy Council of Crete   and since the seventh economical council in  through the 8th Century they're they're you know   the Orthodox had never you know since the  separation between East and West the Orthodoxy   the Orthodox hadn't held an ecumenical council  um at all and this in 2016 this Council of Crete   was going to be the the first ecumenical  council that they've held since the Schism   and I was really interested to see if they  would be able to pull it off because you know   a lot of the churches have just sort of been  fractured and divided against each other and   sure enough the the council fell apart and  everything that's happened in Orthodoxy since   then I think has been you know a direct result  of this the failure of this Council so now you   have the the Russian Orthodox out of communion  with the Greek Orthodox and the ecumenical   patriarchy and I saw all this sort of happening  in real time and I saw the writing on the wall   for me that you know Orthodoxy was going to  fracture and splinter which in fact it did   and it is doing now and I  mean just look at you know now if it's really sad to watch yeah  um so on my mind I felt you know   there needs to be this unifying  aspect of the faith and in the first   Millennia of Christianity it was a you know Rome  was the was the unifier that held everything   together so this was uh this was the Genesis of  my uh moving back into Rome and so underneath   you know I think there was some criticism in you  know online about you know and questioning it's   like well you know father Hillarion he you know  he was Catholic and then he became Orthodox   and he went to Catholic and now he's you know  Muslim like what's next so but for me you know   watching you know looking at things on the ground  you know my move back to Catholicism was a search   or a real yearning for a sense of Oneness  you know in in Islam it's the the tahitin   um there is this it's the ultimate end point of  your journey which is was Oneness and Truth until   heed right through this long winding journey in  before yeah it makes sense so so that was always   sort of underlining my you know if you go back  to uh the the the the term for a monk Monaco's   in Greek you know you're searching for the one  to be alone with God so you know yeah all right   uh so that was always my motivating uh  factor and I and I I increasingly see in   Christianity this is further and further um  Division and even within Catholicism I think   in a and even even within the traditional  catholic movement um I just see further and   further like sort of schisming and Division  and it's really it's really sad to watch   um and it's not to say that you know Muslims in  Islam well you know there's there are divisions   within Islam of course and and I think anywhere  where people are involved there's human nature   um you're always going to have that but I don't  see to the same extent in Islam that I've seen   in Christianity were to even you know even  from moving from Orthodoxy into Catholicism   or vice versa um you get the most vitriolic  um denunciations of the other I think you   know I mean there's no hierarchy there's no  institutional hierarchy in Islam obviously   and sooner as well so there's no priesthood there  are no intermediaries uh it's quite egalitarian   in that sense that everyone uh at least in  theory is on the same footing so yeah before   Schism institutional Schism is not so much there  uh but even theologically there is overwhelmingly   a mainstream normative Sunni tradition exactly uh  which is about what 90 of Muslims on the planet   um and that's quite different from Christendom  which is split left right and Center all over   the place in ways of course describing so did  you enter into you you were received into the   cat did you have to be reordained when you  became a Catholic priest or no no no so   yeah so um entering into the Catholic Church  uh they recognize my priesthood right and   um I essentially um re-enter the church through  confession essentially the Catholic Church   and uh as a monk you know I I wanted  to continue my monastic life or   yeah I didn't feel I was leaving monastic life  it was just a a different understanding of the   ecclesiology but as an orthodox priest monk um the  question was where you know where would I go to   live out my monastic life uh and uh there are  plenty of uh you know Benedictine monasteries   at Roman Catholic monasteries uh but there  aren't very many Eastern Catholic monasteries   that's confusing because Eastern Catholic  can look a bit Orthodox Eastern Catholics   yes communion with Rome and so there's got  cut slight visual confusion to people who   don't understand right yeah so Eastern  Catholics the ideal is Eastern Catholics   um are exactly like Orthodox in every respect  so liturgically spiritually theologically   um except for the ecclesiology where  Eastern Catholics are in Union with   with Rome and uh whereas the Orthodox are not  but in every other aspect they're essentially   uh the same so so yeah so pictures of  me as uh Orthodox and pictures of me as   Eastern Catholic I look essentially the  same so yeah so there was some confusion   on online there is a lot of confusion it doesn't  matter I have tried to dissipate it by explaining   but it doesn't have much effect because the  visual imagery is so powerful in in suggesting   country apparently to what we were saying but  of course no you've explained it uh yes um yeah   so so you're a Catholic priest uh in communion  with the Pope in Rome you cross the Tiber so to   speak and um what happened then in your interest  in in Islam that continued in the background or   did that take a different form as you move  forward um they continued in the background   uh and it didn't really I think that you know  the transformative moment for me really was 2019   uh a good friend of mine who was Russian Orthodox  converted this is not my best friend but another   friend another one right yeah he he uh he was very  vocally um he had a Blog uh he was very online   um his very vocal supporter of Russian  Orthodoxy and then seemingly out of the   blue he converted to Islam wow and for me uh  I I found that you know I was intrigued that   he would do that and I had a lot of  questions a lot of people were really   um a lot of Orthodox were really um harsh with  him I think um you know saying you know you're   an apostate you deny Christ all these things uh  and I felt that uh possibly my reaction should be   that but it wasn't I was more intrigued I wanted  to talk to him and really learn his reasons and   and find out you know what he had to say himself  as to how he would move from Orthodoxy to Islam   um so 2019 at the same time I was encouraged  to apply uh to um uh for a master to a   master's program uh at Marquette University in  theology so then I got in so I was uh I started   um I started in my master's program at  Marquette University in theology in 2019 as well   at the same time I was still um searching for  solid uh monastic life in eastern Catholicism   um but you know at the end of in the summer of  2019 I found myself living in in Milwaukee and uh   So I entered the uh Marquette theology program and  Not only was my friend's conversion in the back   of my mind at the time but now all of a sudden I  found myself at in a university setting with the   University library and it had a massive section  library just books on Islam Sufism and whatnot   so all of a sudden I had all these  resources at hand whereas previously I had   whatever was online which I think there's  a lot there's a lot more online now than there   than there was yeah indeed but you gotta know  you're gonna know how to find it because there's a   lot of good stuff online there's a lot of evil  stuff as well yeah I know really what's in the   in the tin be careful but one's not eating poison  right yeah it takes some discernment and yes yeah so I had yeah I had all  these resources all of a sudden   and then and then the lockdown happened  which I also write about my blog and somehow   that that time in Milwaukee and  that time during the lockdown   was very transformative and I found myself  living outside of the monastic setting   and all of a sudden the churches are all  closed and all I had was my apartment in my   books and I had a little prayer corner and  I was really you know I was reading more and   more about Islam and traditional Islam as well  as you know the Sufism aspects of Islam but   yeah I think the the sense of sort of  living in the spiritual desert in a sense you   know because not even the churches are  are open and you're sort of on your own   a lot of people I think felt that way at the  time and I certainly felt that way almost   a sort of an abandonment to be honest from from  the you know on behalf of the church which is   difficult to say because I felt that you know  at the time of the lockdown when people most   needed that spiritual sustenance and the  and most needed the church a lot of times   you know it just wasn't there and you know there  were there were you know masses being streamed   online like the Catholic mass and whatnot but  it's not the same as having a priest and I think   uh I think for Christians uh especially  Catholic and Orthodox Christians uh access   to the sacraments is really important so to have  no longer that access to the sacraments was   a very detrimental and me as a priest you know I  could sort of um say The Divine Liturgy on my own   but uh yeah but but um uh but so anyway but it was  during that time and during the lockdown during   my time studying at Marquette University that  um not only did I have all these resources but   I felt a stronger and stronger pull towards  Islam and both spiritually and   intellectually I think and on top of that I had  you know I I had friends that were Muslim that   we would have conversations these are fellow  students at the University who are Muslims   students at the University and just people I  knew in Milwaukee right right so I had that   human interaction right and so often  you know at Marquette University I would   go and I would pray the hours which is  similar to you know Salah we did prayers   interspersed throughout the day the hours you  know you create the morning prayers like matins   and then the small hours like throughout the  day and Vespers in the evening and I would   pray them in the there's a small Chapel  at the Student Union at Marquette University   and oftentimes almost always I'd be  the only person in the chapel praying   uh they're right next to the chapel and they  had uh a Muslim a Muslim prayer room for the   Muslim Students and I I would notice I would it  would often be filled and there was something at   that time I just felt drawn like I wanted  to go in and pray with them but I knew that   I couldn't so you never actually went in there and  prayed with them I don't know okay yeah um so that   that period from from 2000 or 2019 until until  last year 2002 I graduated with my masters there so I studied mostly historical  theology what aspect   of historical because I'm just curious I'm  interested in theology well my thesis   was on the council the liturgical  development or the liturgical reforms the Council of Trent I  know that it essentially led to   Vatican II actually 16th century the council  training obviously and it helped to well   I won't go into that but yes I understand what  you're just saying all right so there's a there   are a couple professors at Marquette University  that I really admired and particularly   yeah they're Dr Marcus he wrote a book called Orthodox readings of   Aquinas and he has done a lot of really excellent  work to try to bring together or or to at least   have a really good conversation between  the Orthodox East and the Catholic West   on a really meaty and solid theological level so  I really loved his work and he was essentially the   whole reason I I went to to study in Marquette  and again it was the sense of like trying to   um um work towards you know reconciliation yeah  as a Christian traditional thing with you the   Oneness and humanity and Reconciliation this is a  theme in in your pilgrimage for life I've noticed   yeah interesting um so once I had graduated from  Marquette I um my my goal was to get back into a   monastic life after my sojourn in Milwaukee and  it was a question of you know is there still a   question of where to go uh during the during the  lockdown we had started a um some like-minded   friends uh uh we had this idea of trying to  form a more traditional uh Monastery in Texas   um someone had donated land and uh we've done  some initial fundraising towards this end   um uh and while there were a lot of um people  interested in this project mostly lay people uh   it was difficult finding um ecclesiastical  support for it um so yeah we'd gone from   uh you know we sought out different Bishops  who I thought might be um interested uh and uh   yeah it was it was it was a difficult time trying  to get the groundwork going because I felt I feel   uh you know there's a need for more traditional  uh Eastern Catholic monasticism uh that largely   didn't exist there's just not a lot of uh  Eastern kind of like monastic options as   opposed to Orthodoxy there's there's uh there's  plenty of Orthodox monasteries uh for example   you know Romania is a country roughly the size  of Pennsylvania and they have just in Romania   they have a thousand monasteries um this is some  part of a small part of Orthodoxy so yeah so uh   we just found like a need for a number of people  felt there was this need for a traditional Eastern   Catholic Monastery which reached her eye to form  and yes it just never sort of got off the ground   and I think that perhaps that was providential  because while I was um working on this   you know still internally I was I still felt  this draw towards Islam but it never really   took hold completely until last year 2000 uh 20 uh  22 23 exactly what happened last year it suddenly   um it seems like everything just sort of at  least for me uh came together all these you   know all the not just my inner spiritual life but  everything that I had been reading over the years   um all these connections and I think finding  people like you know Abdul Hakeem Arad for example   and Hamza Youssef and uh these these people that  I didn't know existed until last year basically   um and I think your blog also um I lift  I list a number of sources on on my own   blog I'll link to it so people can see uh uh this  yeah yeah so I think discovering all these people   that all of a sudden they seem to tie it they you  know everything all these sort of elements in my   life and my academic interests and my intellectual  interest and my spiritual interest you know all   of a sudden seem to be tied together yeah um  also I mentioned in my blog there's a priest uh   Louis massaging he was a a Russian or no  sorry he was a Roman Catholic priest who   um is a great scholar of Islam um if he in the  19 20s 30s 40s I I read a lot of his works at   Marquette but uh yeah everything just sort of was  tied together and on top of that my my best friend   also converting to Islam himself so at this point  I was staying in a monastery out in California as a sort of I went there as a sort of  open-ended visit in the Abbott invited me there   it's a wonderful community I love the  Abbot there he's we still have a good relationship   he's a wonderful man and it's a  it's a Ukrainian Catholic Monastery   but the Abbot there and  the bishop of the monastery   just Bishop Benedict actually is his  name uh just wonderful people   so I I had no problem with the monastery itself  and and I served at the monastery as a priest   and but then internally I was feeling this draw  to Islam, I felt that I had reached this conclusion   and that you know I I needed what were you drawn  to but was it as a spiritual longing for the   truths of Islam the Tawheed so I don't know if it  was in your mouth but I'm just trying to focus   yeah I felt that you know I felt that a lot  of the issues that I was seeing in Christianity   and a lot of things that I wished to  seeing Christianity was already built   into Islam itself so the sense of Oneness  the sense of unity and the Oneness   of God you know which permeates  through the tradition itself and   the depth of the spiritual life in sort  of the Sufi traditions and the depth of the   intellectual tradition I mean I think just  listening to you know Tim winter Abdul Hakim   Murad listening to his talks it was yeah  I just felt you know he was saying things that I   you know agreed with and just just felt  naturally and he was sort of putting it   into words in a way and I think he's really good  at tying you know the tradition you know sort of   presenting traditional Islam within a western  context I think you know yeah until Hamza Yusuf   as well yeah him as well yeah so yes I just  sort of all came together for me so you know   at the time you know I was in this open-ended  visit in this Monastery in California   and I felt that if I felt that I was in a  position where I had the freedom if I wanted to to you know become Muslim and go down this route  where I wasn't tied into I didn't have actually   a lot of obligations outside of you know  we've been working on this project and went on   okay sorry but were you actually in touch with  any Muslims I mean I don't mean online watching   yes I meant in reality were you actually  in reality Muslims, at this time we're not   not in the monastery because the monastery  was out in the mountains were pretty remote but   I didn't I was in touch with the number of imams and I pretty quickly you're getting   input from actually yeah I had a lot of so  yes it wasn't just me watching YouTube videos   just watching YouTube videos yeah I was have  I was in a engaged in conversation with actual   right with actual original example people that  could answer questions and knew the tradition and   whatnot so which was very helpful yeah so yeah so  for me I felt that being in the monastery I   needed to remove myself from that environment  which it wasn't a bad environment I just   needed to take some time away and not you know  serve because I was serving daily in the church   Divine Liturgy and all the the church services  and I was there past orally for people you're   hearing Confections presumably confessions yes  priest you would yeah given again and again   I took all that very seriously I wasn't I  didn't want there to be a sense that I was being duplicitous or yeah doing something  publicly and then being something else privately because for you know my entire life my entire  Priestly Ministry um I I took it very seriously   I was sincere and I think that my  pull to Islam which only came to fruition   in the past year like full full bloom in a sense  um it wasn't as if I I mentioned in my blog   I had said something like you one couldn't  be a priest publicly and a Muslim privately   and I know I know there's you know  there's the term you know submarine yeah for the people what does mean in this context in  this context of people who are secretly Muslim   essentially right but not because they're  they're spies I mean it's because they have   yeah it's difficult for them to come for whatever  reason whatever reason yeah you know for whatever   reason they believe they are Muslim  internally but for whatever reason externally   they can't openly convert to Islam so you  know that was presented as an option to me I   I said you know a couple people said like well  you can you know there are such a things you   know you could privately be this but I I felt  like you know I I felt in a certain level and   I'm not judging other people who are in this  position because because you do as a priest   but people do in the Catholic church on a Sunday  mass the nice thing it says you know the Jesus Is   God God from God's light from light true God from  true God this is Jesus and if you're a Muslim you   can't really say that unless you've got a gun  to your head and you you know uh because it is   basically taking you out of the faith so it's hard  to see how that we reconciled in a Roman Catholic   context in other denominations where you can make  up your theology I suppose it might be all right   yeah that's that's quite common in a lot of  places actually but uh yeah so I I specifically   did not want to be sort of duplicitous  you know um so as soon as I could I I   came back home to Pittsburgh where I am now and  uh and I I have uh you know family members who   my father specifically um he's in poor health  um yeah so I I in a certain sense I I did want   to come back and be here he had a heart attack  recently so I've been trying to I haven't   even told him yet because I don't want to  stress him out but it's difficult it's   the same problem with my father as well anyway  so but so I came back home and I but as soon   as I you know the opportunity was available  I removed my cell phone the public Ministry   and came back home and just wanted to be  just wanted some time not to be public just it's   starting to interrupt you I just if I would just  break this a little bit so you left the monastery   in California as a Catholic priest and a monk  at this Monastery in California in the western   USA you went back home to Pittsburgh partly  for very commendable reasons to deal with your   father who I do hope uh gets better and and is  comfortable but and you're also have very good   reasons because you simply wanted the space and  the environment where you could follow through   to your next stage but did you write a lot did you  write a letter to your bishop or did you write to   the Abbott and say sorry I'm leaving I'm going to  become a Muslim I mean had it I mean in terms of   the practical details what was going to stop being  a priest and a monk in a monastery and become how   does one leave let alone how do I become a  Muslim becoming a Muslim bit I get I know I know   what to do I've done it but they're leaving the  priest would be I don't get how does one do that   I don't know that was that was the part that I  I didn't I couldn't really figure out because I   I knew on some level you know I was fairly  well known in the in the monastery and as   a priest because partly because I  made myself available to people   in a way I found there's a lot of there were  a lot of people in the Catholic Church um who for whatever reason uh felt like they  couldn't connect with their priest   or there wasn't a traditional priest near them  or whatnot so I often made myself available   to people because that was my job  you know as a priest people who had questions   pastoral whatever so I was fairly well  known just from that I think and I felt you   know to I've I felt a deep responsibility  towards these people and I didn't want to   you know people in the church as  I said before a priest is not his own   is his own so I I felt there was this  deep responsibility I had for others   yeah which was the most difficult  thing for me because I felt you know how would I leave the monastery  and in a way that would cause the   least amount of scandal I felt so  and I felt you know going back home   stay you know with the idea of staying with  my family and this is what I told my Abbott and I   feel looking back I think you know he's been very  wonderful does he know that does he know that he   knows now yeah as soon as as soon as everything  sort of broke I immediately contacted him and   told him the whole situation I mean she said  hello I am now a Muslim I don't know I mean   um yeah I explained to him this is something that  you're not it's been in the back of my mind for a   long time and all of you know and I've reached  this conclusion and right um or it was   yeah it's it's difficult I I looking back now I  wish I would have said something while I was there   you know it was difficult so what did he say  well I mean how does an Abbot of a monastery   response he's a um he's a very pastoral man  himself so he uh he didn't fully understand it   but he was very supportive right as Avid  Damian is his name and he wasn't he   didn't say horrible things nasty things in  fact I think the the response overwhelmingly   even from Christians has been even if they  don't understand my reasonings or they don't   agree with it has been supportive it's only  been a you know a minority that have been   vitriolic I suppose regarding my conversion  so to speak yeah but my habit in   California he's just he's very supportive but I  felt you know it would be it would be very awkward   to have this conversation while I was there and  also I felt um I wanted to remove myself from   Ministry to allow yeah to give to have more  space internally I think and just generally to   before I made this this final decision to somehow  go public yeah that makes sense it's a process   isn't it Robin simply a question of sending off  an email or something it takes to adjust and you   know and I just didn't figure I had to figure out  you know because there were still a lot of people   pinning um there's sort of hopes on on me you  know starting this this Monastery perhaps or I   was offered all these different positions I can go  here or there you know I was offered um uh Parish   in Hawaii I can gone to Alaska there's land in  North Carolina um to to start a monastery and   if one so it's not as if I didn't have any options  when I left things were going quite well actually   um but internally you gave up a lot clearly uh in  terms of your Christian past you Embrace Islam and   another future for yourself yeah yeah I mean I  could have lived quite comfortably and and and   everything that I've been for years working  towards was finally sort of coming together   actually uh so yeah I yeah it's not as if things  it's not as if things weren't going well and I   decided like oh this isn't working out Muslim or  something but uh no things were going quite well   um so that was the difficult aspect so even being  in in Pittsburgh spending time with my family here   um I you know there was there was this still this  question hanging over me it's like well what am I   going to do next and um from from my the Abbott  and fellow Christians so I had hoped if I could   have sort of faked my death and just like Slipped  Away Into Obscurity I would have been quite happy   um because I I felt you know I wanted to um   yeah I just never really quite figured out how  to go about um telling everybody if I say so you   said this yourself so I'm not in any way saying  something inappropriate you said yourself you are   more shy more introverted kind of person and  so the last thing you're going to want to do   is get around shaking everyone's hand and telling  people knocking on their doors it's not kind of I   mean someone who's very extrovert would have  a problem with that let alone someone it was   more more retiring as you say um so that would be  a real personal challenge to communicate your new   reality but also can I just kind of like just  for the record um when did you say or shahada uh I kind of I sort of privately said it to  myself I suppose uh in July July last year   but I this was this is much more of a private  thing at the time in your heart before God you   were a Muslim and but when did you perhaps uh  did you did you say in front of an Imam in a   Moscow or something I did actually uh well I was  visiting Pittsburgh at the time and I met with   the Imam and right at the time so I felt back  then so but I I still wasn't public with things   um when was that with the Imam in the morning  this was in July I was in July as well last year   yeah and so I I yeah I I had come yeah I had I had  things worked out by then I think and it was just   a matter of how I would um leave and come back to  Pittsburgh and again in a way that would create   the least amount of uh handle and because I didn't  want to I didn't want to I think you know I know   my own reasons for converting to Islam and um but  I think for for a lot of people um I I just felt   even though I felt this was the correct thing  to do they just wouldn't understand no you know   they just wouldn't understand so I didn't want  to I didn't I just didn't want to scandalize   a lot of people so that giving you a postural  uh compassionate nature is understandable you   don't want to upset people you don't want to  offend people uh but so I can understand your   your reasons for thinking that way makes sense  so being in Pittsburgh I had hoped to sort of   slip away and be forgotten but I realized that  that wasn't going to happen so when did we   when did that stop happening because it hit the  global headlines Al Jazeera had a piece on you   um and you were the number one uh name being uh  trending on Google uh at the world in the world   at that time how the Earth do people find out  because you said you should had a publicly up   to a privately back in July but when did the  news break was it was it last month wasn't it   in February or uh yeah it was the end of February  wow yeah yeah so I came yeah I have been really   happy uh spending time in Pittsburgh I had just  been I've just been working uh I've been working   you know and uh just sort of living my life in  a sense I I'm very closely connected with the   Muslim Community here good and I just felt you  know being here uh and sort of being out of the   the public eye in a sense um I've been you know  the happiest as I've as I've ever been uh yeah   it's been really wonderful and I think that but  at the same time yeah this sort of a question of   uh uh sort of sort of Damocles in a sense  of hanging over my head of having to figure   out some way to say with the least amount of um  stress and for everybody that I'd become Muslim   like how would I do that and that was really  difficult um but I I reached a point where   um you know I lost a lot of sleep over this too  I think you know just the stress of how would   I tell people this how would I tell my habit  what's the best way to go about it I suppose   yeah uh but at some point I just had a moment  of uh I don't know inspiration I think and uh   I just felt that I was at a really wonderful  place um personally and spiritually and uh I   I had posted the shahada on Facebook which  I thought you know I I did it as sort of a   uh uh I don't know I I thought maybe people would  would think it was a joke but I I I thought why   not so as I thought you know I'm in a good place  just sort of pull the trigger I guess you know um and see the gun goes immediately yeah I thought  about it later I was like um you know I took it   down later because it got some negative reactions  I thought maybe that's not you know the best idea   but uh some people picked up on it immediately  and just things blew up from there right and uh   um so yeah I I uh there was a there was a  Catholic blogger who I'm friends with who has   a uh a YouTube channel he did a story on the fact  that I converted to Islam apparently and he even   uh linked my uh private blog which I have no idea  how he found I sent it to somebody they must have   sent it to him but uh initially my blog was meant  to be um you know if I my close friends and family   um when I tell them that I've converted to Islam  instead of explaining everything over and over   to them I would just send them to this this blog  yeah and they could just read it for themselves   in the description below because definitely  whether you've got a number of uh several   essays recently written about your the process  leading up to your conversion although not beyond   that so this is the first time we're hearing  about your yeah and then afterwards yeah so   um so he read the blog and you know on his uh  YouTube video on his channel and it just blew   up from there and uh in just a matter of like you  know 24 48 Hours it was this huge story and uh   and I'm kind of glad that you know I was under a  lot of stress trying to figure out um what to do   or how to go about this and what the best way  to do it and and this this sort of momentary   um thought like just pull the trigger  and just do do it which is which is   what I was that was the words in my head  that I you know when I posted the shahada um and then it almost immediately took it  down but um but yeah so within 48 Hours   it was this massive story and uh it was quite  overwhelming for me and I was I was getting uh   phone calls and my phone was ringing off  the hook and I was getting messages and   texts and I totally removed myself from social  media I know the case now isn't it you're not   actually honest I'm not on social media now any  any there are Facebook accounts with your name on   it yeah saying oh this uh you know this Facebook  uh with Father hilarious is that him and I   um it's not you so no in social media is it  actually you apart from this one blog which   is linked to in the description below right  that's the only thing so so anybody you see   with my name on social media that's not me and it  actually caused some problems actually because uh   some of these accounts were saying we're  posting pictures of uh priests that I know   that are Russian Orthodox saying like oh inshallah  my priest's friend is converting to Islam and then   he would get all these like uh messages which  is not fair you know I mean it's essentially   a harassment actually yeah I think so I part  of my reasoning so I I I was getting all this   attention and as a sort of interpret introverted  person I I um yeah just shut everything off I I   I responded to individual messages of people that  I knew and explain things to them but I I didn't   look at any anything that was being said about me  online or both the positive and the negative uh   uh I didn't watch any of the videos or read any  of the news stories or anything and it was just   it was just unbelievable the exposure that that in  the whole story got yeah why do you I mean I got   my own theories not that it matters what I think  but why do you think there's been such a global   interest what's it blew up basically in 24 hours  you were Mr Anonymous you were happily living   your life in Pittsburgh I mean in 24 hours you  know Al Jazeera had a news piece on you and the   whole world was the Catholic church was rocks why  I don't I don't know I feel like I'm a pretty you   know unassuming person but uh uh I I think well  some of the uh some of the story you know some   of it was maybe a little bit misplaced uh because  a lot of the a lot of the stories would say like a   top priest converts to Islam you know and  I'm not really a top Greece in any sense   you know I'm just a you know I was just sort  of living in a monastery but uh but I think   um yeah it's hard to say but a lot of people  you know I've heard and I've spoken a lot of   the feedback you know just recently I started  to venture out and to read some of these things   that people have been writing about my conversion  yeah and it's actually been very uh encouraging   um and yeah I would get I would hear from people  and Morocco and uh Indonesia just all over the   world who would read my blog and I mean there's  not a lot written on it and it's not finished   and and frankly I wrote it as um as um on a  on a very basic level because I didn't know   what my readership would be I don't know who  who was reading it so I wrote it like they're   basically in four minute read Snippets a very  um generic um so uh so yeah but they but somehow   um you know I would hear from Muslims um from  all over who would say things that you know   they find Hope in my in my writing and they  found inspiration and this is a wonderful   thing for Islam etc etc and so yeah I didn't  I I had no idea that there would be interest   in in in in my situation let alone people  finding inspiration you know so it's been a   yeah it's been quite amazing it's been really  surreal for me I think just watching this   play out because I you know I've just  been working here uh just temporarily   um working on jobs uh um I'm applying um I'm going  to continue my education uh uh I'm looking at   different options right now but for the time being  you know as a monk you don't have any money or   um you don't own anything so coming back  to Pittsburgh I sort of started from zero I   didn't have anything so the Muslim Community has  helped me out quite a bit here but I'm also just   working so I was uh it was actually you know uh  just doing odd jobs when my friend called me uh   it was a two or three weeks ago and told me and I  wasn't paying attention to anything on online or   in the news or anything I sort of blocked it all  out and and he told me like you know you're the   number one Google trending search in in the Arab  world and it was just so bizarre and I'm just sort   of like you know mopping the floor at the time  you know so anyway yeah so it's been encouraging   now finally sort of uh looking at all the  responses and reading these responses and um and   you know if I if I wanted to be you know private  and sort of forgotten by the world I guess that's   just not how it's gonna be I guess but and I  and that's just you know whatever you know a law   whatever is providentially uh the situation  then I I feel that I can't run from I can't   run from it you know so well I do wish you well  there are a lot of good people out there in the   Muslim world who will uh who are and will continue  to offer you their support and their help so I I   don't fear for your your future at all uh there  are some pitfalls of course but I think you're   more than mature and intelligent enough to see  them coming and to avoid falling into them but   um but no I do wish you well as we draw perhaps  to a close it kind of just give you some rapid   fire questions if I remember yes points of  information and a few other questions why   did you choose side Abdul Latif for your Muslim  name uh I didn't actually uh somebody somebody   um somebody chose it for me a a close friend of  mine had been speaking with uh just theological   issues in Islam um but I hadn't I wasn't given  a Muslim name initially and I felt you know as a   sort of my monastic background I do everything  by just obedience so I felt like it had to be   given to me at some point and uh and so my  friend asked me what my Muslim name was and   I said well I don't really have one and he said  I'm going to give you one and and he he chose a   Abdul Latif actually which means servant of the  all gentle yeah and uh yeah and I did I did choose   Saeed at the beginning because my monastic name  is hilarian in uh original original ancient Greek   uh hilarion means cheerful so um with that being  slightly ridiculous is that where we get the word   hilarious form cheerful hilarious uh yeah it  has the same root it's the same etymology right   that's interesting yeah so Saeed Abdul Latif is  a cheerful servant of the all gentle I thought   that was really nice and I hadn't been using it uh  but when this whole news story about my conversion   uh exploded my blog I I had it under a different  name and I went and immediately switched it to   Syed Abdul Latif uh hoping that you know maybe  no one would find it but then it was all over   the news like yeah it's too late now we all  know who you are you know where you live yeah   so that's that's that's where that name came  from right okay my next question is books and   online resources uh what's been a help to  you what would you recommend by the way two   um Catholic priests Orthodox priests other  Christians who were curious about Islam   what resources would you recommend other than  listening to your good self and your blog of   course but other than that what resources  would you recommend they perhaps look at   uh well yeah I listed a bunch of them  on my blog um but I think you know um YouTube has been uh I mean you have to know I  think if you if you go on YouTube and just type in   anything you'll get probably the tops the top  um search results aren't maybe the best I don't   know but I found like a lot of the talks of Abdul  Hakeem Murad Tim winter been very helpful uh for   me he also has on I think it's 11 hours uh 11 hour  long course on YouTube of just the introduction   to Islam uh by Tim winter Abdullah kimara that's  been very helpful uh the the uh your own blog or   your own your videos have been helpful for me I  think uh there's a there's a Blog that I I found   also very helpful um YouTube uh Channel let's talk  religion oh yeah I think that's it's not it's not   uh a channel that's exclusively devoted to Islam  but I would say a good two-thirds of the videos   are that um that he produces are about the history  of Islam and different aspects of Islam like what   is what is Sufism even Arabi uh what is  uh what is twelver Shia Islam uh those sorts   of things and I found that very that very  helpful William Chittick I didn't I didn't   put him on my list which I on my blog I probably  should have but he's got a lot of excellent books   I'm reading his book on even looking at it now  Ibn Arabi at the moment published by one world uh   he's incredibly incredible writer it's always  American academic obviously yeah I found that a   lot of Western converts to Islam who understand  I think um Christianity and Western culture   um or sort of speak the language I suppose you  have converted to Islam have been the most helpful   for me because they sort of build a bridge between  two worlds in a sense uh so William chittix one   um guy Eaton of course oh yes his books   most videos I do this these days yep Islam  listen here man of course yeah that book   particularly was very helpful for me and also uh  Saeed Nasser uh he wrote yeah yeah that's probably   the first book that I've read that was this  is my first book and that was the second book   I ever read yeah I think it was the first  book I read that was about Islam that wasn't   I guess critical on Islam or it  wasn't a it wasn't a polemical piece um yeah yes so I thought that was very helpful  there's yeah there's there's a lot of resources   out there and I think there's a lot of really  there's a lot of really bad resources yeah so   I think uh yeah and I I some Christians who um  were disturbed friends of mine disturbed of   regarding my conversion to Islam would send me  videos on YouTube of different Muslim preachers   that say things that are sort of questionable  and I have to warn them like to be more you know   to be more discerning of what you see and read  on the KKK in America present themselves as a   Protestant Christian organization that's why they  burn the cross because they're you know whatever   um but one would never send you know um an  inquiry into Christianity if you're a hospital   because yeah you wouldn't say well look what  the KKK say about Christianity I mean they're   not representative they're extremists you know  we don't necessarily endorse anyone who calls   themselves a Muslim because some people are  simply not in the normative Sunni tradition   and are completely deviant or extremists so we've  got to be discerning and some reason Christians   don't get that in Islam we have a normal tradition  they had the four schools etc and this is Islam I think the Norms of tradition is is  is um there's more resources there are   more resources now than there were maybe even  five or ten years ago I suppose all right so   yeah there's plenty out there and also I feel  you know my conversion to Islam I want to I   enjoy the conversation between these traditions  between like the Christian tradition and Islam   I think there needs to be more real meaty  interaction between the two so I feel   you know like I said embracing Islam is  more you know moving towards a more what   I feel a a more holistic understanding of  of things and it's not necessarily you know   there's there's there is definitely no  in my conversion the sense of I was uh   rejecting something or rejecting Christ  or you know certainly you know Christ   within the context of Islam is recontextualized  you know um and there's there is there's even a   high Christology I think in certain aspects  of Islam certainly, if you read Ibn Arabi I think   so so I think there's a lot of  misunderstanding uh on behalf of Christians   as to you know is Islam and what Islam says  about Christ and other religions etc so I   think his mother as well Mary who's obviously  honored in Catholicism has a whole chapter of   the Quran named after sir and Jesus is highly  revered in the Islamic tradition as a great   prophet a messiah born of a virgin who did many  wonderful miracles uh by the permission of God so   um you know and this is the early Christology this  is the Christology of uh the earliest church and   not the earliest disciples it's not a it's not  a novelty or an innovation or it is for you this   is the authentic original understanding of Jesus  re-established and re uh and reproclaimed to the   world in Islam alhamdulillah yes and I think  there's a lot of fruitful discussion to be had   um between uh Christianity and Islam particularly  I mean that's my background and so uh I I have I   have no animosity towards anybody and I  I you know I feel bad frankly for a lot of the   Catholics and Christians who are trying  to maintain a traditional understanding   and a traditional practice of the faith that  sometimes um even their own hierarchy um yeah tries to I don't know put stumbling blocks  in their way especially the current pontiff   arguably but that's a commercial subject but  that's another story I mean it ties the impacts   with my last question about your hopes and plans  for the future and I suspect given what you're   saying in your personality and your disposition as  an ironic bridge builder seeking Unity rather than   you know antagonism that this kind of  interfaith I don't mean Interfaith in the   kind of watery liberal kumbay yes great I mean  a robust interface which recognizes the truth   of Islam but nevertheless seeks to communicate in  a in a peaceable way in a way mutual respect with   the people of the book Jews and Christians I mean  this may world I don't want I can't speak for you   or say what you should do but it would seem to  be a natural place where you could contribute   a lot in the future perhaps inshallah yeah I  hope so yeah as far as my future you know   you know coming back to Pittsburgh and  sort of stepping into stepping away from   my Christians know you and the whole  Christian world it really was a sort of a   a leap into the dark so I I had no idea how things  would go or what I would do or where I would be in   10 years from now uh but I sort of felt that this  was the correct um decision and this is you know   my God's Providence this is where I've been LED  and I couldn't do anything otherwise I suppose so   um so yeah I don't know where I will  be 10 years from now but I do I I I've   made a lot of wonderful connections  in the Muslim world and with   a lot of respected scholars and  translators uh fellow converts   um who know their way around pretty well sort  of the Muslim world so I have a lot of um your hands have a lot of good guides yeah  yeah excellent yeah so I feel very uh   um it's so important to have to have good  friends good guides at all stages of life   but particularly in the early days of  of embracing Islam when you know one's   not quite sure the lay of the land and who to  trust who not to trust and so on but I I know   for a fact that you are being looked after very  well and alhamdulillah that's good news yeah so   I'll learn I still need to learn Arabic which  is indispensable and yeah I'm continuing my   education probably in the US for a while and  then perhaps go overseas yeah so we'll see but   um I'm pretty I'm pretty uh I feel very  uh positive about the future right now so   yeah okay well that's uh perhaps we can uh  conclude there so it's a beautiful Story and   there's much to ponder on in what you've been  through and what you've learned and uh as I said   repeatedly I'll put the link to your blog below  where people can explore more some of your   recent themes and writings and recommended books  and online resources that have been a help to you   and so thank you very much indeed sir  for your time it's been an absolute pleasure   well thank you this has been wonderful so I'm  glad assalamualaikum to you take care Paul bye

Channel: Blogging Theology

Views: 414,293

Keywords: Orthodox Church, Blogging Theology, Fr. Hilarion Heagy, Said Abdul Latif, Islam, ex-Christians, Converts to Islam

Id: llRITjZqO3Y

Length: 107min 20sec (6440 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 20 2023