7) Plato's "Meno," part I

hey everybody how's it going I'm doing well I'm doing well um well anxious partly cuz I had too much coffee partly because I'm gonna I'm not even sure if I'm gonna go for it I'm thinking I'm gonna try to do all of me know in one shot today but this gets us to about halfway through the dialogue so I'm like we'll see we'll see how fast it takes us to get to the riddle of inquiry and if we can do it in about 3035 minutes I'm gonna go for it if we can't that's okay I don't want to push it too hard one of the things that I do want to avoid is getting there's there's so much there's so much gold to be mined in these Platonic dialogues you don't want to rush through them but at the same time I don't want to spend the entire semester just reading Plato there's other stuff that that I want to she means business okay um just a really quick recap what what was going on in Euthyphro that was the other the the last dialogue that we read the first dialogue that we read Euthyphro you throws about it's about piety takusan do they figure out what piety is by the end sometimes I'll notice that some students this is this happened once with a family member that they were like so what is it that you do and I was like well here and I gave him Euthyphro to read and then afterwards I was like so what are you thinking he was like so like according to the dialogue like there just is no answer to what piety is or it's whatever you think it is and I was like oh no about that one of the things that we do even though we don't find out what the correct answer to this question what is Tahoe's on we get some hot leads such that like I think I'm I think I might be able to formulate something that bless you Socrates never comes out and says it and he never really gets Euthyphro to figure it out but we might say some like it's that form of justice that has to do with how you repay an unpayable debt it's that that kind of justice that has to do with how you comport yourself towards your superiors or your benefactors the people who give you everything and need nothing from you so this this isn't we might say like this is this is what piety is all about and even if that's not going to be our answer we certainly find out some things that piety is not right we get a whole lot of answers from you through that we can kind of cross off the list this at the very least seems to be at the heart of the Socratic method of this negative alinka s' that we cross examine people's answers and that helps us cross things off the list if we find out like I couldn't be that because that runs into this kind of critical problem or this contradicts itself or this contradicts something else that we've said earlier and that we're really committed to so some progress gets made in the dialog Euthyphro some progress gets made here in this dialog Meno as well the other thing even though we maybe don't get an answer to our big questions the other thing that we noticed in Euthyphro I would hope and I kind of got the impression that maybe some of us did pick it up because when I made the connection there was kind of like this this ripple of quiet gasps through the room that certain certain ways of like answering this question what is piety are performed throughout the dialogue nobody comes right out and says them but they are performed or there are connections to like major themes that are introduced early in the dialogue but then kind of resonate throughout the dialogue that ironically kind of in the sense of dramatic irony Socrates is interlocutors don't necessarily seem to pick up on them but as attentive readers or if we were thinking that we were bystanders if we were spectators to the dialogue just kind of standing around the Agora listening to the conversation happen then or in youth prose case standing around the King archons Court that maybe we would pick it up and be like ah something really important is happening but Euthyphro doesn't realize what it is same sort of thing is going on in me no did you did you pick it up did you catch it knowing that Plato likes to kind of bury things in the dialogue were you reading with some kind of attention to that did you find things rude is kind of like oh nobody ever comes out and says this in the dialogue I see what's going on I see a lot of people like maybe by the end of today's class maybe by the end of today's class will finish the dialogue maybe by the end of today's class even if we don't finish the dialogue we'll get some sense of like oh there is something clever going on in fact we get a pretty big clue right off the bat Euthyphro was about piety Tahoe is on me know is about virtue and the Greek word here is arte this one is worth kind of drawing our attention to the the Greek sense of the word arte when we say virtue today I think a lot of people are thinking explicitly in terms of moral virtue the Greeks weren't necessarily thinking of it in that way as a matter of fact moral virtue who might not have even been on the map we get this that we get this impression quite distinctly from me know that when he is asked to talk about virtue it's almost like moral virtue isn't even it's not even on the radar forum and Socrates is trying to get me know to kind of mmm scooch over into this direction to think of virtue in moral terms or in ethical terms what they're thinking that it is is maybe something that a better translation might be excellence in this sense of like what does it take to be a great person that's virtue and Socrates is trying to remind him and everybody else that like a big part of being a great person is being a good person and maybe this is an instructive kind of a triangulation of terms for us as well when you think of somebody who is virtuous do you think of somebody who is moral yeah perhaps do you think of somebody who is great somebody who is six as well maybe maybe you do maybe we start to think in terms of a that it's going to somehow be a trade-off that in order to be a good person maybe have to sacrifice being a successful person but Socrates and Plato are trying to get us to think of these two things at the same time that they're that they're somehow inextricably linked to one another yes it's ten and what Aesop has to say about virtue well Aesop is working through these things through storytelling right yeah through fables we'll get a sense um we won't read this passage of Republic but Socrates spends a bit of time in the Republic talking about how fables are not particularly trustworthy yeah for starters because they're not true they're stories that aren't true so like yeah are we gonna tell a fictional story that's gonna lead us to the truth actually that's that's like kind of a remarkable thing and a substantial part of Republic is maybe even concerned with this question can I can I tell a fictional story about a fictional city and have this give us some insight into into some truth about what real cities should be like and we're gonna see this also in fado Socrates says like I'm gonna I've started writing fables like on his deathbed he's decided to start writing fables in the vein of Aesop he cites Aesop by name but no Aesop is not necessarily going to be a reliable source at least in in this dialogue and mostly because it's you know because it's fiction so virtue r88 excellence right off the bat we find out this is this is the question what is virtue or is there another question first is it teachable yeah first line first line tell me o Socrates is virtue teachable so our first question is is virtue teachable and we don't stay with that question for very long I wanna point out a couple of things in addition to the fact that like first leg are the first framing question that we get for this dialogue is is virtue teachable and then we maybe lose sight of that for a little while don't lose sight of it this is important it's not just accidental that we start with is virtue teachable we're then gonna go on to try to figure out what virtue is yeah and if we can maybe we've answered the question already even but even that is kind of like that's not explicitly recognized what Socrates says is how can I tell you whether virtue is teachable or not if I don't even know what virtue is like it's as if somebody asked me like is Meno tall when I don't know who Meno is as me no good looking when I don't know I can't answer these questions if I don't know who Meno is so how could I tell you some characteristic of virtue how can I tell you whether it's teachable or not if I don't know what virtue is I'm so devoid of wisdom I can not only can I not answer this question but I can't even tell you what virtue is and Meno says for real you can't tell me what virtually I've heard like from far away Meno by the way he's not an Athenian right he's a visitor from Thessaly he's a a wealthy and powerful visitor to the city he says we've heard about you from real from like far away that you're supposed to be wise you don't even know what virtue is like what am I supposed to go back to Thessaly and tell people about socrates who doesn't even know what virtue is this is this is surprising Socrates and furthermore did you not meet gorgeous when he was here gorgeous was my teacher gorg we remember gorgeous right Dorji is this officed did you not be gorgeous when he was in Athens Socrates is like you maybe I met gorgeous yeah I did I totally I met gorgeous it was like well didn't didn't Gorgas tell you what virtue was in Socrates like to my knowledge I've never met anybody who knew what virtue was I have met gorgeous and I'm not sure if he knows what virtue is why don't you tell me what gorg is says I'd like do you think gorgeous knows why don't you tell me what gorg it says actually you know what forget that don't tell me what gorgeous says coz gorgeous isn't here tell me what you say me know what is virtue so this immediately gets shifted to this question what is virtue not only have we shifted from one question to another from whether virtue is teachable to what it is but we've also shifted from one question asker to the other who asks whether or not virtue is teachable Meno does yes Socrates a question this is a little bit different than Euthyphro right youth throws the ones and they're like guy I and I know everything Meno starts out by asking Socrates a question comes to Socrates as the student teach me teacher and this is a theme that kind of like goes on throughout the dialogue there's a whole lot of in fact this very first line tell me o Socrates Menten me know may as well tattoo that on its forehead tell me I want the answer Socrates but Socrates doesn't want to give answers he wants to keep asking questions right so immediately Socrates flip the script on him sets up these conditions for the Socratic method for this negative olenka s' he's going to put Nino on the spot and ask me no to tell him something okay good enough for the intro question so far comments things that I might have missed me no offers that up his first answer and it's a very gorgeous type answer yes yeah so in fact if we remember gorgeous was a bit of a relativist when it came to this sort of thing but like ever if there's such a thing is truth maybe like everybody's truth is their own personal truth when it's a lowercase T truth not a capital T truth that his objective and works for everybody and me know gives this kind of style of answer with respect to virtue he says different virtues for different people men have a virtue it's taken care of public city-type affairs right women have their own virtue it's taking care of the household how quaint but this was this was the reality of Athenian life right and most of ancient Greek lives man's domain was out in public handling public especially in a democracy handling public city affairs woman's domain was back in the house taking care of the Oikos instead of the pub the paulus children have their own virtue old people have their own virtue slaves have their own virtue for every season there's a different virtue for every kind of person there's a different virtue so many like virtues abound this is a kind of answer that I actually get from a lot of students sometimes when I ask them to tell me like well what do you think virtue is or some other term what do you think justice is and they'll say well you know it depends on who you ask all right I may be I suppose it depends on who you ask I'm asking you to tell me like what what do you think but furthermore are we suggesting here that there are lots of different virtues that there are in fact there's there's there is a different virtue for men and different virtue for women this is maybe a little bit an old-fashioned idea but maybe somehow we've internalized this we still believe certain things that to be an excellent man is not exactly the same thing as being an excellent woman maybe we think like ah that's ridiculous but let's think about children and adults is what it takes to be an excellent child not exactly the same as what it takes to be an excellent adult is what it takes to be an excellent old person different than what it takes to be an excellent child is what it takes to be an excellent soldier different than what it takes to be an excellent philosophy professor different virtues for different people different stations in life different seasons yes is it something else okay so yeah so like is there a problem with this answer aside for maybe a little bit of latent sexism he didn't define it yeah Socrates maybe kind of ironically says like wow you know that's amazing I just asked you to tell me like one virtue and here you gave me you gave me many an embarrassment of riches here a whole swarm of virtues we just wanted one and you gave us a swarm of virtues hey speaking of swarms bees come in swarms there are lots of different beats lots of different kinds of bees too if I ask you what a bee was and you said like there are lots of different kinds of bees there are queen bees and there are worker bees and there are drones when we say like oh thanks you have you told me what a bee is maybe not even characteristic you've given me lots of examples right Socrates is response to this is whoa whoa whoa swarm of bees man and we saw this in Euthyphro too you've given me a whole bunch of examples and Socrates adds something to the example type answer here or to his criticism that like whoa we've been given a whole bunch of examples here not just one example we've been given many examples Socrates says if you told me there are lots of different kinds of bees isn't there something that they all share in common by virtue of which they're all bees like queen bees that kind of bee drones are kind to be worker bees are kind to be but they're all bees they all share something in common they're yellow and black and got fuzzy buts like maybe that's the thing that they all have in common you've given me lots of different virtues what is it that they all have in common can you give me one virtue like one virtue that covers all of them what is this thing that all of the virtues that you've just named have in common such that we call them all virtues I mean I was like no okay let's see what you're going for all right and he gives a second answer what's the second answer mmm yes Bianca or a little ahead that's that's actually its fourth answer second answer yep that's the third answer what's the second answer it's immediately after this critique about the swarm of bees to rule over people yes Cimino second answer what is virtue what is the one virtue that kind of like covers them all perhaps maybe he is misled by the way Socrates frames like phrases his question like can you give me one virtue that like maybe it like he was thinking like Socrates the same one virtue that rules over all the virtues and you know is like I am ruling yeah yeah it's to rule over others maybe this is Minos aristocratic privilege showing through that he's like well what is it that it takes to be like a great person and he's thinking of himself and he's thinking of the ruling class means like well obviously it's to rule over others any problems with this again Socrates is in the same sort of position that he was in Euthyphro where he's he doesn't know what virtue is so his criticisms have to be really careful he can't just be like god that's not virtue yes yeah bingo you've cut seemingly contradicted your previous answer Amina you said different virtues for different people and in fact you named children and slaves as having their own particular virtues are you telling me it's the virtue of children and slaves to rule over others is it the virtue of a child to rule over their parents there's maybe even an internal contradiction here if the virtue that covers all virtues like the master virtue for everyone is to rule over others presumably somebody's got to be ruled right is it the virtue of the ruled to rule or is it somehow the virtue of the rule to be ruled can everybody be a ruler can everybody be a leader this is this is what it takes to be an excellent person to be a leader this would be strange because if everybody was excellent there would be no followers only leaders this is maybe a little bit of a problem so we have some structural issues with menno's first and second answer first one that he gives is it's a big long list of different kinds of virtues different virtue for man different virtue for a woman different virtue for a child different virtue for a slave for an old person etc etc and Socrates is like slow down there champ I just want one you've given me many what is it that they all have in common by virtue of which they're all virtue and then Meno says oh it's to rule over others and Socrates is like ha ha come on you're not even trying man you just said that children and slaves have their own particular virtue and now you're saying everybody's virtue is to rule over others that won't work either these are as to structural objections to mean those first and second answers he also slips something else in in his critiques of Minos first and second answers are in the back and forth between him and me no in the first answer and the second answer where he's kind of leading Meno along just a little bit we're maybe already familiar having read Euthyphro that Socrates likes to do this he's going to feign complete ignorance and then ask questions but he's asking question in this waiver he's kind of like laying down breadcrumbs and trying to get his interlocutor to follow him someplace when Socrates says we want one virtue that covers everybody what is it that all these different virtues and your swarm of bees have in common and mean it was like I'm not really sure what you're talking about I'm not I'm not sure if virtue works that way that there is one common thing and Socrates goes oh well obviously there there are some things that they all have in common yes yeah so like we might recognize for example that like on the average men tend to be stronger than women right so something like that so like what counts as strong for a man is different than what counts as strong for a woman perhaps strong enough for a man the pH balanced for a woman like a shampoo or something or a deodorant um but strength fits up like strength means the same thing whether I'm talking about man woman child old person like what would count as like notably strong might be different the threshold is different but strength itself is the same sort of thing it's being able to like lift things I suppose maybe that's one version of tallness would be the same sort of thing right what count says tall for one group of people might not count as tall for another group of people tall and my family is not the same as tall and your family but tallness is the same right it's its height right so what is it about virtue what is it like what is it that everything like yeah all kinds of different Thomas's but all tallness has something in common it has something to do with height what is it for virtue and me and I was like yeah I think virtue is different than tallness and strength somehow and Socrates is like really what about like justice and moderation if a man's virtue is term preside over the affairs of the city can he do it well without being just and moderate I mean it's like no I don't suppose he can well if a woman's virtue is to take care of the household can she do this without being just and moderate no it doesn't seem like it can a child be an excellent child without being just and moderate old person's slave whoever it is don't they all have to be just and moderate I mean it was like yeah I suppose they do and sock he's like all right well then give me the answer what is it that all the virtues have in common and then me know says odds to rule over others it's like he completely missed the clues just flew right by him and here we have justice again DK this was a key essential concept when we were looking at toys on right when we figured out that like one way of understanding this is that it's a kind of justice the kind of justice that has to do with the relationship between humans and gods and perhaps other sorts of relationships where there's this verticality as well to rule over others and Socrates says ah come on you you've tripped over yourself here clearly it's not the virtue of the ruled to rule over others boom clearly that's not the virtue of children or slaves and furthermore even amongst the rulers to say that virtue is to be root to be able to rule over others that's not enough because don't they have to rule justly it's not even it's not even the virtue of our ruler if they're not ruling justly merely being able to like a tyrant can rule but that doesn't make them an excellent ruler so don't they also have to rule justly there we get it again justice yet one more time and this time Nino picks up on it he's like God ah yes right okay this is the second time Socrates has mentioned justice so maybe just yeah this is it this is the answer so Socrates says so tell me tell me you silly man what is virtue and Meno says justice is virtue getting warmer perhaps what Socrates response to this answer that justice is virtue yeah is justice virtue or is justice a virtue so maybe have you just given me an example of virtue and this is again yeah then yet another familiar sort of sort of answer Amino says like yeah maybe it's a virtue and Socrates like yeah because there are others right like courage and moderation and munificence and like all of these that they're like all kinds of virtues justice is one of them but it's one amongst many we're actually back to a swarm of bees again now right so justice is virtue he's like wait a minute is that virtue or is it a virtue and it's like well it's a virtue and sorry it's like and there are others right let's list them and we go through this whole list of various virtues and if maybe we wanted to stop there and be like oh that's our answer we're back to the swarm of bees problem maybe it's a slightly better swarm than we had before instead of saying in different justice for a man different justice for a woman different justice for a child now we've got this list of particular virtues that all people need right everybody should be courageous everybody should be just everybody should be moderate but we've still got just a list of virtues and we may still very well be wondering what is it that they all have in common by virtue of which they're all virtue and Socrates says give me that kind of answer that's the kind of answer that I want this kind of answer that covers everybody not just examples not a whole swarm of examples tell me what it is that all of these virtues have in common they're getting warmer but Meno still seems to not be giving the sort of answer that Socrates is looking for and here's right about the point where Meno starts to kind of just give up on trying to answer the question he'll put forth one more answer later on but we'll see he's not trying so hard there this is the point at which Meno says Socrates I don't get what it is that you're asking me to do and Socrates says well like for example if I said what is color and you told me Reds are color we'd be like that's not a good enough answer right or if I asked you like what is shape and you said a circles a shape a square is a shape a triangles of shape you wouldn't have told me what shape was you will have given me examples of shape right and that this is this is what you've done so far not really told me what color or shape is not really told me what virtue is just given me lots of examples I want you to do this for a virtue of the same way that you would define color and shape and Amina says well show me what you mean why don't you like why don't you define why don't you define shape for me I want you to find color for me how does Socrates do this he gives actually some peculiar answers yes yeah so what is what is shape shape is that thing that always comes with colour first of all what shape is that thing that always comes with colour does that even make any sense yeah yeah yeah think of a color like close your eyes and imagine the color do you see the colour imaginatively does it have a shape is it possible to have color without shape like maybe it's like a moon maybe it's like a big kind of like weird amorphous shape but it's a shape even if you're like nah when I close my eyes and there was no shape dude who's just like all red your field of vision has a shape right roughly rectangular or something like that yeah wider than it is tall which is why you should never ever ever take vertical videos on your phone always horizontal because our eyes are like side but their eyes aren't like this all right they're like this our field of vision always has the shape so even if it was just like just wall-to-wall colored it's still gonna be a shape so yeah all right I see what we're saying here that shape is that alone of all things which always follows color all right and then Mino says all right smartypants what if somebody was like but what's color and Socrates says all right are you being serious here I do not know what color is are we friends is this a friendly conversation are you trying to trip me up if this was like a competitive debate then you would be like karo aww shape is that alone of all things which always follows color but what's color then and if this was a competitive debate I would have said something like I gave my answer it's up to you to refute it not to ask me now to define more terms and if you actually knew what color was then this is like a silly sort of a point to bring up but maybe you don't know what color is so here I'll define color for you do you you with them ped achlys that there are an effluvia of things and Nino says yeah sure this may be the sort of thing that would be like didn't pedigrees actually say that we might flip back to the pre-socratics like where does Italy say there's an effluvia of things it's actually it seems like the sort of thing that might fit Democritus a little better than in pedigrees either way what he's getting at is this idea that there are like streams of atoms coming out or streams of like some sort of matter coming off of all sorts of objects and these interact with our sensory apparatus in our eye and this is what allows us to see things and Socrates says color is that effluvium of things that is suited to the eye and allows sight to happen basically a big fancy way of saying color is what you see silly pants and again we might be like is that what color yeah I suppose so can you see anything that doesn't have color when it's completely dark then you don't see or perhaps we say you see black the color black depends on whether you're doing an addition additive or a subtractive approach to color like are we talking about light being combined are we talking about pigments that absorb light being combined so yeah depending on but if we're talking about like kind of ordinary like Crayola box sort of approach to color black is one of the colors in a crayon box right yes can you see anything that's not a color and for that matter Omar if we're gonna say that like black is the absence of color then complete pitch black filled in your vision right this is the absence of sight if you're to say what do you see and I said I see nothing somebody might correct me is like do you see black and then we get into this terminological quibble of like well do you actually see you blackest black color either way we went it seems like socrates is definition would still hold are these good definitions well one of the things that we might think about is like well what would it take for something to be a good definition is this question of have I colored have I covered and I colored have I covered all of the cases of shape and color with my answer and have I covered only those cases of shape and color with my definitions I want to get all and only the shapes when I define shake if I give a definition of shape and it doesn't cover all the shapes not a good enough definition if there are some shapes it's like if somebody's like what does shape and I was like squares shape and somebody was like what about circles they're not squares are they shape seems like oh yeah that wasn't a very good definition if I give a definition that includes and like covers things that aren't shapes hmm then I would have a problem as well that's also not a very good definition so one test that we can put Socrates's definitions of color and shape and he gives some others too right he offers one for for shape that doesn't rely on color at all in fact this is his response when Meno is like but what's color he's like you don't know what color is fine I'll define shape without any reference to color at all I'll say it's the limit of a solid limit of a solid what's that all about well I mean what's what do we call this in geometry that's a point how would I define a point well one way of defining it is it's the limit of a line limit being like the boundary right what are the boundaries of a line segment on one end a point and a point by that virtue what about a two-dimensional figure what are its limits what creates its boundaries not just the four points the lines yeah yeah so the limit of a two-dimensional figure is a line the limit of a one-dimensional line is a point at zero dimensional point and the limit of a three-dimensional figure is a there's a two dimensional shape so this is what is shape shape is the limit of a solid a solid figure a solid three-dimensional figure this is what shape is so he defines it that way when we say that covers all in only shapes well maybe it does maybe it doesn't Socrates is offering up examples and every time he offers one up to be like what's the purpose like why is he engaged in this exercise why is he defining color and shape for me now yeah to show that it's possible to and to show what sort of answer it is that he's looking for and every time he does this he's like alright so do you get it do you get what I'm asking you to do with virtue Meno says do another one for me you did shape by saying it's that alone of all things which always follows color do it again but don't use color and Socrates says like are right fine here I'll do it and he says all right now do color now define color for me he's he's really bossy isn't it in fact Socrates at one point says even a blind person here would know that you're a very young and attractive and probably wealthy man the way that you like make demands people you're accustomed to people just doing whatever you say a little bit yeah keep in mind here that like the ball is in Minos court in the big conversation Socrates that says had said you need to tell me what virtue is you keep claiming to know what it is tell me what it is in here Meno seems to be the one who's always saying like no you tell me o tell me o Socrates you tell me something it's almost like Meno is this person who like why would he even be interested in what Socrates has to say about virtues teachability and when socrates gives some of his answers especially the very flowery ones mean I was like oh that's a good answer if we read back through this text we might get this sense that like Minos the sort of person he likes to collect clever sayings he likes to like find out like what do all the wise people have to say about this he goes up in Assen like oh you're wise tell me what you think this the answer to this very important question is and then you can remember these things and then when he's in a discussion with somebody else you can be like well and peda Cleese says they're on a flu viim of things gorgeous says there's a different virtue for like every season and Socrates says that virtue is or isn't teachable he's looking to collect one more little tidbit of knowledge from a wise person do you know anybody like this that like they're they're very very good at knowing what other people have said how useful is that maybe a little bit useful if you're only a collector I don't know if that's gonna really amount to any sort of wisdom I don't even know if it's gonna amount to knowledge except for knowledge of what other people have said there's this problem here where Meno seems to not have any strong opinions of his own when put on the spot to come up with him kind of half-heartedly offer something up he really likes to give other people's answers to questions he really likes to get other people's answers to questions not so good at giving his own answers to these questions not so good at standing up to Socrates's cross-examinations so we go through this whole exercise of color and shape and Socrates says there have I satisfied you you greedy person I mean it was like yes all right are you ready to tell me now what virtue is I mean it was like yes I'm ready Socrates is like all right let's have it Amina says what's the fourth answer it was already given him somebody mentioned it yeah a slightly different translation the one that I'm more used to is it's to desire beauty what do you say honorable yeah I've heard it as beautiful talk along beautiful or honorable things and have the power to acquire them what do you think about this answer does this look like a rich person's answer what is virtue its desire beautiful and honorable things and have the power to acquire them this is actually I think there might actually be something to Minos answer here that's very very good but it's also possible that he doesn't know what he has just yet he is maybe ironically close to a really good answer of what virtue is and it's revealed that he doesn't understand what he's stumbled upon here when Socrates cross-examines him yeah yeah yeah yeah maybe he has too shallow of an idea of what beautiful or honorable things are and maybe he also has too shallow of an idea of like having the power to acquire beautiful or honorable things we'll see in just a second because Socrates leans into me it's like whoa okay interesting you've given me a two-part answer here which is possibly very good we have seen before in Euthyphro that a two part genus species definition has the potential to be a really really good one we're like I start with one big class of things and then I specify it a little more and that helps me kind of zero in on the thing that I'm looking for so let's brick you've given me a two-part answers to desire beautiful things and to have the power to acquire them let's look at each part separately to desire beautiful things are there what do you mean by beautiful things here exactly and I'm not this is not a challenge to say that your answer is no good I just want to know like what do you mean when you say to desire beautiful things or honorable things do you mean beneficial things like things that help us and mean those like yeah yeah I mean beneficial things yeah to desire beautiful honorable things I mean things that are beneficial and the sacrifice is well in that case to desire beautiful or honorable things doesn't that cover everybody is there anybody who doesn't desire beautiful things is there anybody who doesn't desire beneficial things well I put it to you is that everybody doesn't everybody desire those things which benefit them no possibly no so how do we like how do we need no people make bad decisions consciously example so smoking might be yeah prop may be a pretty good example here right of like somebody who they perhaps know that smoking is bad for them but they choose to smoke anyway does the person knowingly and willingly harm themselves as they light up the cigarette there like I'm harming myself yeah as an ex-smoker i'll say that like maybe on some level i was like this is really really bad for me but then like when i lit up each set each separate cigarette it was like yeah but this one's not gonna give me cancer right like this one's not gonna make the difference and i get all these other benefits i feel good my focus is a little bit sharper I'm not as sleepy I'm a little more alert like all of the other things that come along with nicotine great cognitive supplement but you know smoking will also give you cancer but over the long haul right just one cigarettes not gonna make the difference between lung cancer and not lung cancer emphysema and not emphysema so maybe you convinced yourself in the moment I did like this cigarette is not that bad we can think of other sorts of things that people like people do seem to desire things that are bad for them but there is this question do they knowingly do it and this is actually a really really big deal for Socrates and Plato Socrates is going to say it in some other places he's under the impression that nobody knowingly does the wrong thing every time that somebody does the wrong thing it's out of ignorance it's because confused about what the right and the wrong thing are now we might have some qualms about that we might think to ourselves like yeah really really like I don't know it seems like there are some there are some evil people there like here's the difference between right and wrong I'm going with wrong because it's wrong they twist their mustache do you ever do this yes No except for the mustache twirl you look at two options you recognize the difference between right and wrong or between beneficial and harmful for yourself you're like here's the thing that's going to benefit me here's the thing that's going to harm me I'm gonna pick the harmful thing because it's harmful not because I think it's not that harmful and plus there are some other benefits is it always a confusion somehow believed it to be a beautiful honorable beneficial thing yeah yeah right nobody it's like I'm looking to harm myself today what do we got here cigarettes bring it on yeah Gretchen in the name do they somehow believe that it's a beautiful honorable thing sometimes yeah we're gonna get a way more sophisticated approach to this with Aristotle in this this like this like what what do you do when you're torn when like part of you wants one thing and part of you also notice that like I got to stay away from that that's really harmful and you're like you can't you seem to be confused about whether it's beautiful and beneficial or ugly and harmful Socrates is flattening it out of it but this is still an interesting point I think for most folks when we make errors in judgment moral errors in judgment when we harm ourselves we like to at least make some modicum of excuse for ourselves we're like I was confused that it like I wasn't knowingly doing the bad thing because it's bad not an evil person I was just a mistake in person we sometimes have trouble extending that same sort of charity to other people but if we're gonna do it for ourselves maybe we should do it for everybody as well either way if the idea is like beneficial things and we kind of polled everybody we're like do you desire beneficial things do you desire benefit like is there anybody here who does not desire a bet like if I was like we got a whole big basket of beneficial things who wants them is there anybody gonna be like none holding out for harmful things so this is a Socrates this way of kind of diffusing this first part of the definition he's like this doesn't narrow the field at all that's everybody everybody desires beautiful things and actually what we've got is this like interesting hanging question which is yeah yeah we quote unquote desire harmful things we do it unknowingly so maybe the important thing to focus on here is to desire things that are actually beautiful rather than things that we just think are beautiful to have the wisdom to discriminate between things that only seem beautiful and honorable and beneficial versus the things that actually are harmful actually are beautiful honorable beneficial so that sort of wisdom who this might also be a big part of like it might be part of desiring beautiful things to desire the actually beautiful things rather than the just apparently beautiful things that are secretly harmful and maybe this is a really big part of having the power to acquire them is having this wisdom to discriminate between actually beautiful and just apparently beautiful this might actually be a really good candidate for what virtue actually is to be able to discriminate between the things that actually are beneficial not just seemingly beneficial and Socrates leaves that point just hanging out there in the air and Meno doesn't grab it you know just kind of lets it float on by which says to me at least that he's just kind of stumbled it like if this was a good answer he didn't know what he had he just kind of stumbled upon it he was like ah here it is in sarf he's like wait what do you mean and then in the cross-examination it's revealed that like Meno doesn't mean anything particularly interesting right he means to desire those things that seem beautiful and beneficial or maybe to desire things that are actually beneficial even if you don't really know what those things are and to have the power to acquire them Socrates says wait a minute like is that always like being able to acquire beautiful beneficial things is that always a virtuous thing to do I mean it was like yeah sure why not Socrates says I don't like is money beneficial we're like yeah sure money is beneficial do you desire money yeah sure yeah I guess I desire money maybe as part of virtue and having the powder like so if I like desire money the money in the bank if I desire it and I like have the power to acquire it by breaking in with a bunch of guns and I take the money there I desired beneficial things and I had the power to acquire them is that virtue beautiful things in a museum maybe they're beneficial as well I desire them and I have the power to acquire them I go and I Rob the museum isn't it not virtuous at all to acquire beneficial or beautiful or honorable things if you don't do it what's the word I'm looking for if you don't do it with right justice there it is a third time and meadow knows that justice is a big part of virtue but he's apparently forgotten it by this point what did I say get to hereby 30 minutes or 35 minutes not even close all right so there's an ad hominem breakdown after this where a Meno just gets fed up and he's like Socrates I've heard this about you that not only in appearance but also in many other ways you resemble the broad torpedo fish oh snap the broad torpedo fish by the way is a stingray this is a crack at Socrates being ugly bug-eyed flat nose just like a stingray and also like a stingray anything that he comes into contact with is numbed I've heard this about you Socrates people come to you knowing things and they walk away just kind of like I don't know anything anymore you're a harmful man Socrates it's not routine so harmful man not necessarily aah but is he actually harmful does he maybe even perhaps actually beneficial that perhaps if Nino had the power to discriminate between actually beneficial things and just apparently beneficial things he might not say it's Socrates right why you harming me man Socrates goes through a similar thing that he did with the statues of Daedalus where he's like I was like first he does this little flirty thing where he's like I know why you've you've painted a portrait of me and I know why you did it because you want me to paint a portrait of you back and I like inevitably because you're such a beautiful man I'm gonna paint a beautiful portrait and you like beautiful people love to hear people talk about them but I'm not gonna do that I am gonna challenge this analogy between me and the torpedo fish though because the torpedo fish only stings other things it makes other things numb but it doesn't make itself numb in the process I'm just as confused as you are on this point maybe maybe not maybe a little bit of irony there it's like I you know I also don't know what virtue is you know you're sitting here complaining that like I came to you knowing what virtue is and now you've like numbed my mind I don't know what it is Socrates like I don't know what virtue is either so like I like I don't know if this if this comparison to the torpedo fish is fair and maybe you knew once upon a time what virtue was maybe you didn't either way it seems as if you're like somebody who doesn't know what virtue is now and I'm like somebody who doesn't know what virtue is now so let's go forth together let's try to find out what virtue actually is you and me this is valuable stuff right there's like there's treasure there's there's something beautiful and honorable and beneficial here it would be like what virtue is to know this would be a beautiful honorable and beneficial thing you and I are both lacking it let's go get it together and Meno says how're we gonna do that how are we going to go find what virtue is if neither Gus knows what virtue is why is this a is this a problem how are you and I going to find like if none of us knows what virtue is how are we going to find it even if we stumbled upon it we wouldn't know what we had like just happened in the dialog right me know perhaps stumbled upon something that was really close to a good answer didn't even realize what he had and here he is saying that like if neither of us knows what virtue is how can how can anybody go looking for something if they don't know what they're looking for this would make no sense if you already knew what you were looking for in this case this inquiry inquiry is searching for knowledge right if you know what it is that you're searching for then you don't really need the search you've already got it if you don't know what it is that you're searching for you can't really search you can just kind of like blindly grope around but even if you found it you would be like I don't like is this is this it is this this thing what I was looking for I don't know that's actually a really tough problem I can't search for knowledge about something if I already know what I'm looking for there's no point in searching because I've already got it right and I can't search for knowledge about things that I don't when I don't know what I'm looking for because even if I found them I wouldn't know that I had found them think about this in terms of your own education is it possible to be educated by somebody that doesn't know what they're teaching somebody's got to be the person who learns it for the first time right somebody's got to be the one that discovers it huh how does that happen they're looking for something but they don't know what they're looking for yet they stumble upon it and they find it and they're like oh that's what it was that I was looking how do they know this is a really tough problem here Socrates offers forth a possible impossible solution we refer to it as the theory of recollection sometimes sometimes the myth of recollection Greek word here is anime sis unforgettable isom allure etymologically to Alafaya that word for truth that permanent ease was using it's also kind of an uncovered up if miss the theory or the myth and ambiguous here about whether we want to call it a theory or myth because Socrates himself is is he's a little ambivalent about how much he wants to commit himself to the literal truth of this but he proceeds to tell a story that he says that I've heard from I've heard from the priests and priestesses something that seems to me both beautiful and true that that is kind of roughly a Pythagorean kind of a story right that like when you die your soul has carried someplace else and then later on someday it's reincarnated and when it's reincarnated it still has some of the it has the memories of what the soul did in a past life but they're buried there and when you encounter something that you hadn't encountered before in your past life there's a kind of a recognition that this would be it's not quite like for example have you ever lost something and you went looking for it and you kind of walked from what let you walk into the kitchen and suddenly you're just kind of like I'm looking for something but I don't remember what it was that I was looking for has this happened to you before yeah you're looking for it light and you just walk into the room and you're like I'm looking for something that I don't know what it's looking for do you just like break down like me no does and say like what no point in searching anymore if I had it there's no point for looking and if I don't have if I don't know what I'm looking for there's no point for searching either but if you've just forgotten what it was that you were looking for what do you do you just you keep looking anyway you get and then and then suddenly like it my keys oh my keys that's what it was that's what I was looking for and then it's like this little lightning bolt moment where you've suddenly remembered this thing that you forgot have you ever had a moment in your education where you were learning something and suddenly you were kind of confused or like let's go and then suddenly like quick everything snaps into place and not only do you understand like all those things is a snap in place but suddenly you see like and that's connected to this thing that I learned in this other class and this other thing and this other thing and suddenly there's just kind of like boom ah I get it does it feel a little bit like that moment where you suddenly remember like yeah it was my keys does it feel a little bit like remembering now maybe it is literally remembering maybe Socrates is right it's a past life right or maybe it was not a past look because we've got a problem that there's that there's an infinite regress with like if you learned it in your past life how did you learn it then did you recognize it from a previous life well then like you still you had to have learned at a first time right some kind of learning or increase the knowledge had to be acquired at some point and it can't always be a remembering of a past life because it needs to start someplace but Socrates might end up saying something like and he will say this in or he'll get very very close to this in fado that maybe there's something about there's something about the afterlife where you are in touch with the totality of truth that sounds very le attic right that like in the afterlife you cease to become one particular thing you're in touch with the totality of all things and you kind of see the big picture maybe you don't see the big picture you're part of the big picture you realize you're part of the big picture you realize that that which is is and that's all that can be said it's like all right and then you're reborn again and you're looking for that that you're always constantly searching for that moment where you suddenly see everything snapping and being connected again and that's that's when you know you know something maybe something like that Nino is a little confused he's like what are you talking about man this is like wacky like died and then you leave find out in a previous life and then you died and now you're back and like this is how this is how we're gonna find out what virtue is because past versions of ourselves knew what virtue was and we're looking for it like we're looking for our keys not knowing that we're looking for our keys hoping that when we stumble upon them we'll be like ah right that's familiar I recognize it and Socrates says well let me demonstrate for you and he gives a demonstration of the process that he's talking about he says like this is what I mean by this theory of recollection and he does this in the form of this geometry lesson with one of Minos slaves mmm all right so we have just like enough time for me to go through this geometry lesson did you follow us by I saw some people talking about it before a class a little difficult to follow there are some nice illustrations in the book some folks are like yeah I get it raise your hand if that geometry lesson stuff you were just kind of like oh yeah I don't get what was going on out good good it's good that there are some people here that didn't get it because we'll walk through it together and you will get to recreate it it's like you're the slave boy so Socrates calls the slave boy over and actually there's a very interesting little exchange first Tomino as the boys coming over he's like is he great does he speak Greek this is the only thing that Socrates needs to know does he speak Greek does he speak the language can I have a conversation Amina says yeah yeah he speaks Greek and Socrates says good that's all I need he caused the boy over and he says hey if I start off with a square like this let's say like a 2x2 square right there's like one one one one if I start out with a 2x2 square and I was looking for a square that was twice as big as this by twice as big I mean that it's got twice as much area could you find that for me how much area does this square have so I'll say I'll ask you guys especially those who like had trouble following this part of the dialogue what's the area of this square four right this is four square units how am I gonna get one that's twice as big as this and the slave boy says obviously make each side twice as big right so instead of two by two what we need is a or by Foursquare and that's gonna make one that's twice as big Socrates asked a question the slave boy answered confidently right I know you just make it twice as big it's a four by four square and then Socrates says you sure about that capped up all those squares what was the first square 2x2 was so the one that's twice as big is going to be or the one that's twice as big it's going to be eight and this one that you've said the four by four is sixteen that's too big it's twice as it's twice as big as it needs to be we needed to be eight you gave me one that's sixteen and so he says all right kid like you thought you knew but it turns out you didn't know right so try again and the slave boy says three instead of a four by four square 3 by 2 by 2 is too small 4 by 4 is too big it's got to be 3 by 3 right and Socrates says you sure about that double check 3x3 is gonna be mine uh what were we looking for eight ah too big again just a closer right we're getting closer but not quite right and so he says the safe way try again in the slave was just like I don't know and Socrates turns to me and he says the boy started out thinking that he knew and now he realizes that he didn't know have I harmed him somehow have I stung him like the torpedo fish have I done anything bad to this kid by pointing out that what he thought he knew he didn't actually know I mean it goes No and Socrates says have I in fact made the kid better in realizing that he didn't know what he knew now he's actually ready to go forth and look for the correct answer this is a huge improvement to realize that what you thought you knew hmm no you don't know this is this moment that Socrates has brought both him and me know - we both realized that we don't know what we thought we knew and mean it was like God well now we can't proceed and Socrates says no this is the moment that you everybody has to come to in order to find real knowledge you have to realize that what you thought you knew you did not know you have to realize that you don't know and only then can you go looking for something so Socrates turns back to the slave boy and he says hey tell me something else we call this we call him geometry we call this the diagonal of a square if this square was four by four tell me how big is this triangle I'm sorry yeah I did I think all right if this square is 2x2 and the whole thing is 4 how big is this triangle to how do I know that this triangle is 2 because it's half of the square right it's half the square the square was 4 so half of that it's going to be 2 all right this square is also 2 by 2 is it still like this triangle right here what's the area of that triangle gonna be 2 right so I have this square was 4 and it's diagonal it's gonna break off a triangle that's to this square make sure I make it a square it's 4 and this diagonal is gonna break off a triangle let's do this square is 4 so if I do a diagonal here how much is this what should I do next I've broken it I do this what's that triangle 2 2 2 - all these triangles together and if I actually draw in real squares here and real isosceles triangles this would be a square and it's area would be which would have made it twice as big as the first square right so if I'm wondering how do I make a square that's twice as big as this square what should the side of that square be should be the diagonal of the square any square that I take if I'm like here's a square I want to make one twice as big how big should it be boom diagonal boom square that one's twice as big as the first one and the way that Socrates has done this has demonstrated this for the slave boy go back and check it he only asked questions at no point does he say here's the answer kid he's just like what happens if I draw this line then then what then what and when the slave boy gets it did you have the moment to like when I first started doing triangles and then suddenly you're like oh if I do what oh yeah yeah it's gonna be eight like did you recognize what it was that you were looking for is this a better way to teach somebody how to make a square that's twice as big then just telling them outright just say like it's you know if this square is one by one if you want to make one that's twice as big take the diagonal because the diagonal is going to be the square root of 2 and the square root of 2 squared is gonna be 2 that's gonna be twice as big as the 1x1 square but I explained it to you that we'd be like all right I get it if we do it this way if I kind of Socratic lelee view with the breadcrumbs do you learn it better it's more meaningful because it's because it's as if you've discovered it for yourself in fact not even as it you have discovered it for yourself was there some mystery in the discovery we were like but how could I recognize it because I didn't know what I was looking for you knew you were looking for something that was twice as big but you didn't know yeah you didn't know what the side was gonna be right yeah maybe there's a whole bunch of ambiguity here there's also questions about like did Socrates how did Socrates lead him it's not what Socrates only able to able to lead him through this process because Socrates already knew the answer would it be possible for the slave boy and some other slave boy neither of whom understood any geometry could they back and forth together and eventually come to this answer yeah probably so maybe we've satisfied this riddle of inquiry with the demonstration does this necessarily mean that the myth of ink recollection is what's going on here I don't know about that we'll see Socrates himself says I'm not necessarily committed to the notion that like you died and your soul is somehow in communication with the truth and then you're reborn and when you finally learn something you recognize something that you've forgotten not committed to all the details of that but I am committed to the idea that we're better off actually searching for things that we don't know rather than throwing up our hands and being like if there's nobody who knows and is there to tell me then I guess there's no point in me searching there's no point in my inquiry we've got some very different models of Education going on here between Socrates and me no one in which Meno seems to think that the way that you learn stuff is you go to you go and you find somebody who knows and you ask them to tell you yeah again yeah so we've got that problem how would the first person have done it right and Socrates seems to be thinking that no no no the way that learning happens is you discover it for yourself somehow that's more of that you will have really learned it in that case we'll pick this up we'll talk a little more about it and whether or not this has anything to do with whether or not virtue is teachable at our next meeting have a good weekend

Channel: Adam Rosenfeld

Views: 8,207

Rating: 4.9097743 out of 5

Keywords: Ancient Philosophy, Plato, Meno

Id: cjzvwczK85A

Length: 74min 23sec (4463 seconds)

Published: Thu Sep 15 2016