2024 Warhammer Predictions - Warhammer Weekly 12272023

hello everybody if it's Wednesday it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer weekly joining me as always is my co-host for this week it's Tyler what's up buddy how you doing I am not sufficiently prepared and festive for this show got to do better next year I looked scared the entire house could not find a Santa hat or whatever that beautiful thing on Tom's head that I'm very jealous of that I don't know what it is uh reindeer horns thank you and they're they're Diamond en crusted you see that glittery beautiful only the finest only the finest for Tom absolutely we are we're gonna this first of all this is our I suppose Christmas show it's only a couple days after this is the one closest to Christmas this is where we celebrate and at the same time we're also going to talk about 2024 next year it's right in between in that magical week one of my favorite weeks of the whole year the week in between Christmas and New Year is basically a week where no one expects anything of anyone else in the world this is the appropriate thing it's one of the best things about this part of the year so uh we're gonna go ahead and talk constantinos is not here so I can be positive and cheery yeah which I'm very excited about yeah yeah only when he's around do you need to really get Negative yeah uh so we're going to be talking about our 2024 predictions later on in the show but of course first we start off the show as always with the news all of you out there by the way who are watching welcome I hope you had a wonderful holiday if you celebrate if you don't I just hope you had a wonderful uh Monday either way I hope it was great what do we got for news we got some preview images sir they released a little teaser video bunch of Silhouettes today like you've got these images ready to go I do they teed up so this is uh this is like one of two of callus and tol who are both getting models like that's who this is yep okay yep that is exactly what's Happening Here Yeah correct that's what this is you can see his little top knot and he has a sword like this and guns and stuff and we'll see his partner later on uh so that's that one then we have a new chaos Marauder Horsemen which which is exciting um because that is like a very old kit hiding out in the chaos line mhm mhm uh potentially a war cry kit uh this Marauder Horseman I would say but we'll see could just be one guy might not be a whole kit um because it might go with uh sorry but but maybe not maybe it's just a brand new kit because at the same time this we've got a a little lumineth person here this only part of it yep we have a lumineth uh and the lumineth person is likely a against this person which is a nigh hunt in a war cry box so probably because we had heard rumors of a nigh hunt versus luminoth kit and this guy's clearly nighthaunt like the most various obvious the most very obvious image to anyone with eyeballs is this one they'd have to really give be throwing us a left turn for this not to be nigh hunt yeah the general lack of Karen rth update maybe I mean I would assume so that that model is so old and so like so boring like it literally looks like about four other models yeah sure sure um so a lot of opportunities there to get that guy updated and then finally yes his Callis and total the other one here you go the other one so there's there's the the five images we got and realistically this is like the first two months of the year is what they're previewing here basically like a lot of this stuff will just see the figs themselves either in the next couple weeks or at lvo yeah that's what we did last year like last year we had um uh saraon like a bunch of saraon reveals in the same video yep uh Nicholas r or sorry Average Joe I apologize Average Joe said uh where are all the scaven you're not going to see them yet buddy because that's for the middle of the year and they're not going to start basically like they'll sprinkle some stuff in rumor engines but yeah add adepticon is when you'll see the fourth edition launchbox just like they announced the 40K one and that's when you'll see all the scaven fingers crossed hope amongst hope so at any rate you wouldn't expect yes yes exactly cross your claws um who are Callis and tol um callus and tol are a pair of Heroes who are sort of the uh balcony Muppets of the uh mortal Realms in that they sit around and sort of make fun of everybody else uh but realistically they are a pair of Heroes a witch hunter and his Warrior buddy uh who are featured in a couple AOS novels and show up as Side characters in many other things uh other stories throughout the Realms they are two characters who have proven very very popular as sort of POV characters on uh the nature of the Mortal Realms they're the AOS F Felix and gok yeah sort of yeah absolutely they operate out of um hammer Hall mainly but they they get around so yeah they were in excelsius in uh that one book that I read the only the only AOS novel I've ever read city of Secrets I think or something it was actually quite delightful yeah they were in excelsius I think until he got ruined and now they're in Hammer hall right now and yeah like they they get around I mean they're they're you know mortal Realms Travelers they're not like attached to anything in particular so but they're they City's people basically more order of a are coming folks yep yep uh so there you go that's all of that stuff um I mean it's all exciting I like we're do a war cry box set so I assume that's with the night hunt versus LR or sorry versus yeah lrlr um a chaos Marauder kit hopefully maybe as part of like a Dawn brers book five we'll talk about hopes around that a little later on could be just anything that's that's causing that though at the same time would that be all chaos or what do you like or do you think some chaos and cities probably chaos and cities assume that's maybe also where Callis and tol comes from and that's what I ask because they've been Ren throughout yeah they've been Riven throughout Dawn brers for like yeah a while we're getting predominantly death in this next set right like that's the next book is yeah yeah it's like death all of it that's it that's its thing yes uh so uh where is all that stuff by the way hopefully real soon is when we're going to know so anyways uh Nicholas R said darn I was hoping we were going to get uh the thumbnail was a gun cast mini look I'd love stormcast with guns okay like let's get into it give stormcast tanks and heavy bolters let the let the apotheosis complete all right let's do this like just give them miniguns everything's better with a minigun so there you go uh I disagree Robert McMillan I I just I it would be cool it's not that I would love to see him but I I think I think we'll be operating in that space But I I really have my money on scaven strong bet anywh who although stormcast I agree completely I think you're right there I don't think we'll ever get a launch box without stormcast it's just what it is yeah um all right cool what else we got old world release info so I did not look into this what do we got going on here oh my goodness gracious we've got so much information launch boxes a Hoy choo choo that's not what that's not what boats make okay so return to the world of Legends I'd really rather not but let's do it anyways um I do like this different time setting by the way um what I'm seeing in like the story and all that stuff is actually like they're focusing a lot on like the Border princess part of the world which was always actually the most interesting part of the world to me um so I'm happy to see all of that um um I'm here for I guess we're back to just sort of key European pseudo racism so that's going to be a good time um but the you know we got the boxes so there's two two count them two launch boxes okay um now both contain the big book we'll talk about the big book in a minute but it's like do you want the good guy launchbox or the bad guy launchbox and allegedly this is supposed to be around uh like 1,250 points or something like that like in that space who knows I mean you know given that we've seen how things are built in this it's going to be like fantasy so like it's not like a unit is some guaranteed number of points like units can vary wildly on how many points they cost right like you could have a unit that's worth 80 points or 200 points depending on did you give them the additional weapon did you give them light armor heavy armor Shields a champion a musician a standard Bearer a magic standard there there you know like whatever right just all sorts of crazy stuff okay so like you know I don't I don't know how many points are in any given thing I don't or how you can really say that right but nonetheless that's the basic concept uh then we've got the details let's get them dates um so here is the tomb Kings of kemry Edition I love that the two retired factions okay are are the face of the old world are the face of the relaunch yeah Tom is this a it's morban time situation okay let me explain I mean okay for everybody else let me make sure everybody gets what I'm saying here morbius was always a stupid comic book character Scott is wrong okay he was always dumb and not that the midnight sounds weren't cool I was 12 years old ones too I thought they were pretty awesome all right but uh the Mor's movie came out it was terrible it flopped it did nothing right okay and then there's this whole like meme culture that comes out around it of its morb in time and then he morbs all over the place and all of this right it becomes like this trending thing on social media right and then they're like oh people want to see the the morbius movie after all and so they put back out they put morbius back out in theaters and it yet again did nothing okay CW kryer said morbius was the weakest part of the midnight Suns you're absolutely correct that is this man speaks truth obviously morbius was the weakest part of the midnight Suns I mean ghost riter rules okay at any rate um so have they fallen for their own meme that's the question I'm asking here what do you think no I don't think so um I think that they are cognizant of the fact that there was a lot of uh Blood and Tears spilled Around The Cutting of these factions as we moved into AOS um that there were a lot of loud stands I don't think it had anything to do with these two against each other as per the meme but I think that it um I think that they were the natural two that launch like that would launch together um that said uh I like it feels like a real Miss and what I mean by that is this of all the tomb Kings models they could have put in that box yeah really really well so this is like 93 models in this box 40 Warriors 32 skeleton or SK 32 archers 16 Horsemen three chariots and then new Tomb King on foot and big guy on dumb crocod Dragon okay and the obviously the new models are the tomb King on foot and dumb crocod Dragon yep right yep okay yep and so you've got 91 models that were released I went back and looked this up and when this game comes out they will officially be celebrating their 20th anniversary how about that it's almost to the theoretically it could be almost to the week I mean I don't I don't know when this releases right I mean they've said they said check back in the new year and like we're gonna have a lot of information soon so I'm I'm just assuming this releas is in January right because they the way they were saying it at the end of the article is like wink wink nudge nudge coming real soon right so these guys will literally turn 20 years old the same month this game releases which I do find serendipitous like to the to the almost to the week so yeah I just like no tomb guard no Sphinx or necro Sphinx no uh stalkers orabi like it just feels like such a miss the most interesting tomb Kings units there are out there yeah um and and by the way on the secondary Market historically those units that I just named were very very expensive sure these units that you see in this box were worthless on the secondary Market sure like it just it feels like such a mess sure as I drop something on my desk all right Tyler what's your take on this you but like let me ask this though Tyler this is a pretty good army profile if you look at this thing right like it's like it's a lot of infantry and stuff like that it's it's a good silhouette for the Army like this is a cool looking Force admittedly 100% yeah uh I'm in yeah mode with with all of this I don't have a lot of personal interest in the old world I'm I'm curious to read the rules and uh be blown away by how complex of a game we played growing up compared to what we play now and what we play now feels too nuts to me on the complexity side sure which is which I find fascinating uh yeah just so but yeah I mean that's a fair point I I don't yeah I I mean I think the design of all this the the marketing The Branding looks well done I heard some controversy over how people were upset that the book was not in red color which I found kind of funny I don't know if that was just a meme going around or that was something real oh I don't know is that a thing yeah I heard I heard a few things about that from some friends early in the week but ah yeah don't don't have any strong opinions on this I'm very excited for our buddy Tristan though oh indeed it's a great day for Tristan I mean hopefully we I I would assume that they'll put back out all the other kits you mentioned Tom um I would assume um because what a terrible Miss yeah I hope like if it had had let's say that it had had like I don't know some smaller units of infantry in this and that like that that had been a number of those other units had been in this box I probably would have bought this box just for bits right but because of you know for me wanting to do conversions and stuff like that but what's in here no yeah like pass don't don't worry when ties come out events Tom and I regardless of that we say right now we're going to be all in on this all you guys will when they release the box I I still have highes like I don't know what they have to offer me because I still have like 10,000 points of hes in my in my closet downstairs which offer here here's an idea Tom new highelf models yeah that you're going to absolutely love and you're gonna buy them they offer you new high elf models you give them money and then there is the deal accepted the answer will yes um all right so here's the brettonian side uh so again we've got a bunch of peasants which we saw the Army construction for bratonia in an article as well so we know that actually you do need peasants in the standard Army like you have to have peasants not just Knights um which is a change it used to be very frequent you would you would not always plenty of people ran peasants but you would see lots of lists that were peasant lless would often be Knights only um composition oh yeah give it to me so yeah I mean it's it's I look I'm going to straight up say I do not hate the Army composition rules that they shared in the article that were on offer um I like obviously we will do a full show dedicated to the old world when it actually releases and when we can talk about it and um like I'm not going to lie I don't hate the Army composition rules I really don't like percentages within additional number sliders on there right like potential number sliders like one plus so you got to have at least one or 0 to one or 0 to two or something right so it caps it one or two or then just any of these things go nuts right uh so like okay that that's actually quite a fine amount of control on on those individual units but here we've got 12 Knights of the realm you've got your peasants uh of of two varying types you got your three Peggy Peg Knights uh I was looking Tom uh by the way and I still have so many Peg Knights I realized how many Pegasus Knights I have uh un just like unbuilt it is frightening I have a lot like a lot um like 18 too many I'm just gonna say it that way Tom too many okay more than more than 20 no not more than 20 thank God okay I don't have more than 20 unbuilt um but and then this new there's only one new model in this box which is the Lord guy so okay yeah it's so funny I was at my local store and they had a metal Tri in the like miscellaneous models area and I was like look at that there's the tri how cute uh I mean these guys look good I actually like this color scheme they're going for here the sort of unified scheme because it's like we're operating in a different time period where it's not you know sort of Dukes from all over the realm sending their their Knights along into one congealed Force instead the individual Barons and Dums and stuff like that I I honestly legitimately think the Army looks a lot better with a unified sort of color scheme I just think it looks cool I've always lik this red and black um yeah yeah looks great so super cool dig all the new model all the new models are amazing to me like all the new bretonia that the new bronia models are really good really good I'm sad that they have to sit alongside these again ancient models I did not look up the years on the nights of the realm and The Peasants but I believe they're about the same time time period yeah I was pleasantly surprised I don't to me the men and arms and The Bowman looked pretty good I was kind of surprised by that Knights at least based on the photos look a little Derpy particularly obviously compared to the new guy but yeah the problem is with the Knights you have a really direct comparison between a brand new crisp clean sharp you know modern sculpt and then the old you know one step Advanced Beyond Battle Masters Plastics uh sculpt and like that's rough right yeah like if you every one of those nights it's in that picture Tyler if you turn it up like this there's nothing underneath on the front it's just like a it's like a Kendall down there just a smooth plane of just like where these two giant pieces flit together fit together and don't have any no Detail no shape no nothing it just like it's just nothing you can't yeah just like nah 90s 90s technology yeah um so that's fun uh okay go ahead I like this comment by Jamie Lang I've got to scroll back up I know we're L he was talking about basically how with uh with composition uh here with the old world and fantasy you are having to eat some veggies whereas with AOS you can go straight to the ice cream straight to the junk food and that's that's your entire plate there you go you want all sharks you want to be sure you want an army of that nonsense and turning up pilin here you go you want an army yeah obviously do you think do you think that there might be a chance that there could be cross-pollination on uh on unit compositions like what we see in this for the new edition of AOS we'll talk about it in uh yeah in the upcoming section when like that feels like a great item for our main topic all right let's keep moving uh this is the book it's a big book what they say 325 pages I don't have the notes in front of me but I think it's 325 pag a lot and they said 70 pages of fluff and I'm like holy crap that is not enough because that leaves 255 Pages unaccounted for of rules that's too many pages of rules this is not an RPG Ah that's a lot of rules okay so yeah it's a big book um I don't know how we're going to do a show about this whenever this happens but we're going to try I don't know how to explain or make a presentation out of 250 pages in a book I I can't do that I can't do well one thing that you need to do is just do an entire like 20 slides on keywords yeah on on on usrs yeah yes uh okay Peter Harrison said who are they marketing this game for purely longtime players question mark doesn't interest me at all as a two-year player my answer would be I think it's I'm not sure they could tell you who their Persona really is but if I had to answer the question my answer would be they are targeting High complexity fantasy players people who Miss literally the old world and everybody who played Total War I don't think so I really this is not the game I would make if you the existence of the thing does not equal targeting a market okay that's not how product development works okay if in in Total War the computer does like everything for you okay if you're going to make a game to Target video Gamers if you're trying to make a Gateway game for video game players this is the opposite of what you do I mean the dead opposite I'm not trying to be a jerk I'm just being serious like people who only play video games and aren't used to like labyr timee Byzantine tabletop rules are not going to have fun coming in and learning about the nature of complicated movement flank wheel blah blah blah rules okay that's just not to get all right like I could write a game meant to Target total war players it wouldn't look anything like a 250 page rule book it would look like aos1 yeah like P but with Rank and flank that's it no I I mean I would have done uh I I I I I still think that the original Vision that Jervis had which was a 12-page rule set was the correct thing like he cut it from 12 to 4 by senior executive mandate okay and then very quickly it went back to 12 mhm and if I was trying to write a game to bring in video Gamers I would write a TW like a total total war player specifically I would I would write a 12-page rank and flank rule set it could be done there are lots of good really short yeah Rank and flank games out there they exist you don't need 250 Pages for a rank and flank game it's not required okay so no I think they I think their Persona in it's like whether they will this or not like around the office they might be saying yeah we're targeting total war players and I if I was in their product management team I would cry BS immediately okay as someone who does a lot of discussion about like Persona targeting and marketing and stuff like that in my normal life um so anyways sorry you got me off on a on a rant there but uh at any rate that I think that's really the the target okay um so it's a big book we'll see what we can do that's cool I mean like okay um this I don't hate this is sort of the army books uh and like this is the Army books so you've got a good guy book and a bad guy book and they they form a little picture which is fun that's nice I do really like the art like all the new art I've seen is actually really good they they they they went out got some some really nice artists and by that I mean they have good people working in the specialist Studio side of the house doing the the digital art uh so you've got a good guy book and a bad guy book I like the throwback with the name ravening hordes I see you I see you trying to to lure me back in by naming the bad guy book after The Greatest supplement ever made in the history of Warhammer fantasy okay uh um and these are like what you need to play the game this is your armies and your army lists and how you build them okay your special rules all that kind of stuff all right and then you might think great okay I got two books maybe core book this book they did say all these things will be available in UB so I assume they're not going the direction of AOS since they don't have an app so you'll actually just be able to buy EB PDFs basically which means these things will all be pirated in like five minutes after they're up yeah not to mention they'll be like a wahapedia old world whatever sure of course yeah but then you have these Arcane journals and how they explained these were like softback supplements that give you like special characters and additional like support like unique magic items and special armies which I'm not against if it's executed correctly if I still have to carry around the Normal book to completely and reference then like the core book and that book and this book to get my all of my rules together when I want to play one of those special armies that's kind of crappy if this book were to be like a replacement if I'm using this like if I'm let's say I'm using some special Army out of here like what did they mention they mentioned like um the mortuary cult or something from the tomb King's book okay which I assume is like the priest one yeah so if if when I'm playing that I only need like this thing and the core thing then fine cool if it's just more if it's like all stacks on Stacks then we're right back in the same place but I do love specialized armies because that's how you get back to not needing to necessarily have your your meat or vegetables or I don't know whatever the stupid thing is you got to eat your meat before you have your pudding or I don't know whatever dumb analogy for food we're going to use um yeah the point is is that like you could have special armies where it's like in this Army decos Sphinx is Rec core go crazy you know like whatever something okay so um yeah uh yes that is true Keith Rogers said tomb Kings being armies of evil Nostalgia ruined they were neutral like ogres good day sir yeah we flattened it out we flattened it out it's just good and bad now got rid of that neutral concept no more gray so uh Matt P one would hope the whole faction is in the supplement I think they said that's not the case uh in the article but I guess we'll see uh so there you go that's all of that and then finally we had some new models for the tomb Kings we'll just look at them real quick here uh guy with a big big scroll okay cool seems fine no issue uh new battle Stander bear pretty ugly pretty awful uh do not like that stance at all that's like a really rough stance uh I don't like the flag yeah I don't like anything about this I don't like how thick that is look at how thick that is these little this piece hanging down here rough H screen just caught up oh yeah that is a little weird I like the first guy this guy's a little weird yeah first guy's fine first guy's fine he's not like amazing but he's fine this dude no no that's real bad uh and then tomb swarms and I also don't like these I don't like the weird points and directions and stuff like that like I get it they were trying to do the swirly twirly nimbly bimbly thing but it doesn't sell for me yeah assumingly by the way all three of these are res models sure okay those are pretty funky looking yep uh so there we go I mean we'll see more for the old world whenever we get it yeah I think that's all our news that was a long one it was a long one but we had much to talk about all right let's go to some pick of the week gentlemen shall we uh Tyler what do you want to share with everybody all right two quick ones so miscast the gentleman over there got a dropped a new episode today all about movement highly recommended lots of good Darren stories and and from others and then I watched one of my favorite TV shows now of the entire year on Netflix the other week thankfully it's been renewed for a second season okay blue eye Samurai yeah sure sure have you seen this I have it's amazing okay good all right there's hope for you okay Tom have you seen it I have not Tom I don't care what your opinion is of anime you have to watch this this show is just phenomenal yeah my wife I go yeah no good what we gon say my wife and I are binge Watching Ted lasso the last okay we have to Ted yeah give this a go it's amazing yeah I it's so if you liked I mean it's a female protagonist Revenge story uh said in Ido era Japan Eight Episodes it's yeah it's just phenomenal I could say more about it but uh yeah V got any thoughts on it blew me away uh yeah I mean I do a whole episode on sort of inciler fantasy uh you know media right that shows that this kind of stuff can can work like how do we not have a Warhammer property when you you've got stuff like that going on and yet you can't get a Warhammer thing off the ground is truly shocking to me when you look at something like that right um yeah it was great uh the For Whom the Bel holes fight scene is a particular standout in my mind in the castle assault in episode say six probably um sound about right yeah that was uh was pretty great yeah I like I liked all of it I mean I Tom will tell you I am a huge huge huge super fan of the Ido period in Japan and have set many games and know the period very well and have read books and watch documentaries and all sorts of stuff like that I'm a I'm a big fan of that time period in Japan because uh I'm a nerd so anyways there you go yeah um I what one of these years I'm going to go visit uh Japan but specifically I want to go to Kyoto I want to see the old what's left of the the the palace and I want to head to the Sato Inland Sea those kinds of things that's the sort of stuff that I really want to see of which you get a good you get like some good sort of reimaginations of those things as backgrounds in the uh in that show so yeah yep that's all I got uh all right Tom what do you got for everybody uh I'm gonna spook something that I've mentioned before but not in a couple months but I'm gonna start with a story oh boy okay I'm ready last last settle in everybody we were you know Christmas was approaching yep and uh I was notified by my uh like technology that there was somebody at my front door and I looked and the package should have been dropped off and I went well that's curious what do you mean a package like all like I'm not waiting on anything like all of the Christmas gifts are here like everything has been wrapped what what is this mysterious package sure and I go to my porch and there's a box it has my name on it and then I see it's from Hatchet friends what Hatchet which is the publishing company that does store Brer and so I received my third month's Hatchet box let me just tell you I have never been so excited for a product as I was for this binder it's out of this world I love it so much it's ridiculous and I know it like it tells you how the planes work weird we've been wanting to know that for years sure W and uh you know like I I'll just say it again I I subscribed back in October when they first launched and like I've never regretted it every time I get a package from them I'm like this is amazing you know what's more amazing in February on my birthday I'm gonna get uh uh kondis and I'm excited about that that's coming um so I say all that to say if you all haven't checked out the storm bringer subscription um like it is uh it's a it's like a it's a super interesting product um and if you're looking for models to paint if you're looking to fill out some some Army storm you know like it has stormcast and it has uh like orc War Clans as the primary but like I paid the three extra bucks a month to get the like the the premium subscription so like I'm going to get kondis I'm going to get another M Crusher I'm GNA get uh like some more KO which I don't need but I'm excited about some more trolls some trog offs it's going to be it's fantastic like folks if you seriously if you haven't checked out the subscription check it out it's amazing you said that's a really good deal too like in terms of it ends up being about 52% retail I think 52 to 55% retail something like that now like I don't need the GW paints right but I let my kids paint so it's great you know it goes in their painting bucket sure um yeah it's it like it's it's a pretty good deal for what it is um and again like I originally did it for the models but the actual like magazine is like super interesting there's like a lore section every book and then there's like a how to paint for those that are like getting into the hobby um which is pretty sweet um like it's a it's way more in-depth tutorial than most GW has ever done sure sure um yeah so anyways uh it's it's a neat product so for those uh and you can still get the subscription and again I'm not there's no I'm not getting any Kickback the show's not getting any Kickback for this uh yeah like it's it's just because I simply love the product nice yeah Tom hit me with the link make sure it ends up in the description yeah yeah and there's a bunch of terrain that comes in in some of the issues as well yeah uh just real quick a little while back somebody had said said Vince's tomb King's hate continues listen listen listen here okay who I remember who said it somebody said it one you're not wrong and it's good for you to call me to the carpet on that one two I love tomb Kings I have so many tomb Kings I have a huge tomb King Army okay huge and it's because I love them so much that I expect such quality and when I don't see it I'm going to call it out that's number one so I should be more clear it doesn't live up to my expectations of what this thing could be uh dumb crocod Dragon just does not do it for me uh I'm sorry so there we go um but new Tomb King on foot gu's fine he looks good uh okay for myself uh my pick of the week I'm going to direct everybody to the most recent episode of tup trapped under plastic uh the link is down in the description it's all about Vincy con and the recent get together we had here at the beginning of December with uh when the bo with the boys when they came up and uh the projects and stuff that we worked on so it's great John kind of recounts it from his point of view some fun stuff that happened so check it out it's a good time all right with that Gentlemen let's turn to some uh some hobby time all right Tyler how goes the planning for the new year it's almost the new year yeah uh yeah I've gotten side not sidetracked I've been doing some train painting still so working on my dry brushing it's coming along yeah it's it is good enough it's actually better than good enough I'm I'm pretty excited about how it's coming together so I'll have some photos at some point once I get some fully fully finished and let's see what else is going on I've been playing a bunch of Soul blight uh Tom you and I apparently have been on the soulblight train I think you got some games in too uh yeah I've swapped over I'm over on the FC train now that's I I realized I realized that what I wanted to do with uh with uh Soul blight is not possible and so um I'm on the uh I'm on the court the delusional court now you had an interesting yeah we had talked a little bit you had an interesting Alpha list plan yeah which yeah which is fine uh I just I would rather be more be more reliable and uh yeah FC can do that so absolutely oh yeah [Music] so yeah yeah very nice so so went a lot of fun I I did want to share we're doing a lot of sh and tell tonight uh my fam surprised me with a amazing gift feeding into my love of accessories and so they got me guys this outstanding measurement set you can see it here wow yeah I've been looking at that one for a while y it's on it's on so apparently this is on Etsy uh came from the UK tabletop upgrades something yeah guys this thing's amazing well those are magnetized those are like magnetized it's magnetized into there yeah and they'll they pop right out it's a tray and all the measurement stuff pops right out okay that's cool yeah they're all acry acrylic yeah I was I was looking at I was looking yeah yeah I got these underneath yeah there's a little indention where you can just pop it out oh it's amazing yeah that is super cool so it's got a cover yeah anyway had to show that no that's super neat you should absolutely send me like a link for that or something so I can post it down there after the show because that's super cool I had no idea that even existed that's awesome what a neat product I like I like the measuring that it has this little storage holder thing too and they all everything has a little spot I like things that are well organized where everything has a spot uh very cool very cool yeah hit me with the link after the show I'll drop it in I'll drop in the show notes everybody um all right for me uh I am as well painting some FEC so I painted this little guy right here got my new varol painted um he was actually super fun um this guy rules uh he's like not too complicated at all um but he's a very expressive model uh yeah like I love this guy this is such this dude just nailed it um here you go you see him a little better there is so he's fine and he's good to go all done with him and then I'm also painting a bunch of these skeletons that came out in 2003 uh just suddenly got the urge to paint a bunch of these skeletons um yeah these very old already existing skeletons that I absolutely already had in my collection they're just existing skeletons uh that are that that came out back then yeah just yeah got a got just like you had your 18 or however many uh Pegasus nights you just you have other Old Stock I had a bunch of skeletons sitting around and thought to myself I should paint a bunch of these yeah makes sense yeah of course absolutely so uh all right um so that's been my hobby time uh that literally went right up to the show I was getting those guys finished so like basically I clicked over here and and was behind getting everything set up uh all right um so with that do I get to talk about my hobby time oh yeah go sorry I'm I apologize Tom go ahead I'm so sorry Tom you go right thanks vce well appr you talked earlier and mentioned something about FEC and that got me confused because you interrupted Tyler's H time I did I just didn't talk about the hundreds of models on putting please go we want to hear about it yeah so you know I'm I'm building models no PT no paint is going on any models yet but I'm building models and it's great I love the FEC models they're delightful and uh yeah you're right Vince they are they are wonderfully beautiful models some of them are a a a pain to put together um none of thing in the FEC box was really difficult um but like I was doing the her the heral from like jion's yeah the yeah that Harold was the marrow scroll was the worst like it was if you've never put that together my wife was like working on one and she's like I I can't do this she's built hundreds of models at this point and she's like I I can't do this one it doesn't work sure yeah I I like legitimately the there's a bunch of them that are strange like the new varol of course is weird in how he goes together but it's just weird it's not actually hard like most of them if you just literally go in order on the sprw like find piece one attach it to piece two find piece three attach it to that find piece four like they're mostly built now so they literally go in order on the sprew right like part one and part two go together then with part three then four then five then six then seven then you're done right so you can like some of them are a little weird in how they fit but they're but they're they're they're actually just very straightforward and it's like one goes two goes three goes four done so yeah I hear that I feel that all right very good excellent okay now sorry Tom now with that being said let's turn over to our main topic for tonight main topic time 2024 hopes and predictions okay but before that I'm going to surprise these guys as a little thing that I didn't warn them about but we're going to do it now I'm going to put them on the spot here we go uh here we are here we are Boop overview then the surprise we're going to look forward to 2024 and make some educated guesses we're going to divide our guesses gentlemen into three types everything has to be one of these three types it's either a sure thing 5050 or hopium okay when you're making a guess because this is the internet there's no room for nuance so either it's a sure thing where it's just guaranteed 5050 which is what you say when you don't really know and then hopium when it's just pure chance you're just you're 10 foil hading you're shooting your shot out and you're pointing out into left field okay yep all right sure thing 50/50 hopium those the those are the dividing lines okay and then 2024 promises to be a very big year for Fantasy based warri I mean really it will because we're going to get like we know the old world's coming and realistically we know there's going to be an AOS 4.0 so this is our year folks like fantasy this is the year of fantasy I really hope we get some uh uh I really hope we we get some this is a year where we could really see some exciting things so okay now before we begin that we're going to do a quick 2023 look back and here's how we're going to do that you ready we're each gonna say the best thing and the worst thing in AOS 2023 so you have to pick a best thing in AOS 2023 and a worst thing in AOS 2023 okay uh we're going to stick to products here okay so don't name like an event or something like that that that might very well be true but we're going to talk about a product what was the best product in your mind what was the worst product in your mind okay all right have you gotten your items gentlemen yep done okay Tom you you were quick off the stick start us out do I start with best or worst whatever you can do both just you're both okay best uh let's do worst worst General handbooks okay okay best war cry boxes okay all right you want to unpack that for me a little uh yeah uh one the fact that I have to say General handbooks plural let's start there um because uh it like again we did this in the review of like the thanky or janky um like I gave a very full description for why I'm so frustrated with the the General's handbooks that dropped this year um that it feels like they failed on most levels uh there were some good scenarios right um but other than that uh it feels like a lot of the that the general handbooks are just still way too heavy design wise um uh so that's why it's bad uh good the war cry like war cry in my opinion is at its best when it has been the big boxes of terrain and two Army like every single time for me like that's what like it grips me every single box that released this year I purchased like I I purchased very little models this year but when I started purchasing I went back and bought every single one of those uh um terrain plus uh tro boxes one because the models were just the best like if you look in every single release I don't know of almost a single model set that isn't better than it than the most of the models in its actual model line so for example like if you look at Beast flares look at Beast flares compared to H how all of FEC was when that box dropped it was the best models in that entire line the same I would argue is true of the the vampires the foot vampires uh in the the the hunt uh the blood hunt uh the same with the claws of Court uh uh carac just all the way down the line uh the skinky chameleon skinks were better than all the rest of the like I would argue any of the other models in that whole line came with big little baby pterodactyls and a bunch of just beautiful sculpts of skinks um just every like at almost at every Point what came out of those boxes the fire Slayers the fire Slayer models that came out of that box was simp better than all of the the models in the fire Slayer okay y like it just it is it is it is greatness upon greatness that we're getting the fire the war cry units and actually some of them are actually becoming competitive now some of them are actually good units they're not just throw away forgettable you know forgettable War perfect Tyler your best your worst yeah I had a quick question on the on that do you guys have any sense of whether there's a meaning pattern or correlation between war cry releases as a Herald of future refreshes or expansions or priority new battle tombs with a slight expansion or whatever like any doesn't seem to be any real correlation I think what happened is is I think the the sculptor went wild and when they walked through the design room you know when they walked through the sculpting room they said that that that that and that send it to production and and we're going to and we'll and we'll put it in work honestly and so then whenever the books get released right that stuff just gets lumped into the actual main product y I think that that's what you're seeing um and actually as an aside um what I would actually maybe argue that we're seeing is uh we're seeing war cry as as the venue of updating units with new units in AOS sure and so rather than new books coming with like a foot hero in a new box you're just getting like Heroes with the book launches and then the units that would be in those book launches are getting pushed through war cry first and then into the new book yeah like your Gorges or whatever sure yep yep yeah yep very interesting new terrain units like that's true of both the uh both the saraon and the ogre armies yeah yeah good point okay so I've got a death themed best and worst so worst pre fleser quartz pre fleser quarts death uh obr uh I'm I'm cheating a little bit because that's what I do on the show complete disaster obr Soul blight those battle TOS absolute hot mess the both of them when they came out to me that was the worst of the year that was like the culmination of one of the most Jank years that we've had in the eight years of AOS is history with these battle Toms uh they're in a better place now thankfully and then the best I love this flesh cours book as we just went over recently and the the models the box sets great yeah there's couple potential concerns things but they're easily addressed if needed as we discussed as well so yeah I think the flush course battle to is is pretty amazing really excited for it technicality uh slaves was also incredible that was more that was like split in half right that was like 2022 and 2023 yeah obviously slav was incredible okay uh best for me easy it's big pig and the iron Jaws expansion even though in in the game the model rules are underwhelming I couldn't be more thrilled that we got the thing finally after so many years of wanting it and we didn't just get one version of it we got three versions of it which is awesome so like there's actually lots of different ways lots of different reasons to engage with big pig and and just the iron Jaws small refresh and expansion in general was something much needed to a a wonderful beautiful very AOS line um you know so but but big pig is the headliner there if you if you made me pick an absolute best I'd pick him without hesitation um it's just wonderful to see some something that the entire Community has wanted for so long community of iron Jaws players at least I'll say um actually get manifest and like yes hey this thing is here right there it is cool we got it ladies and gentlemen we got him uh and so that's that's easily the best for me uh the worst um well since you said Soul blight that's fine I'll leave that to the side uh because I do think that was was the worst of the year I just think it was the most off-kilter book but I'll pick the one I wanted to pick in my heart anyways since you already got it out there uh which is the new heed nights of slesh book uh the worst that was this year somehow that's true it feels like we've labored under this sopian stone for all of my life I don't remember a time before it anymore uh and I hate it I hate it from top to bottom it's the worst it's uh as far as like actual play experience goes it's truly the worst time I've had all year and uh nothing made me want to quit an army that I've Loved for 20 years more than that book I've never had a book be that Divergent from anything I would like to do with the Army than that book it was so wildly off-kilter so there you go um that's my best and worst uh so I guess for one of my armies it's it was a great it was the best of times for a different one of my armies it was the worst of times ah indeed I played against a full Army of pigs about a month ago and yeah can confirm they need to work on momentum sure just need needs a little tweaking little tweaking yeah doesn't quite get there doesn't quite get there that's all right uh that's all right okay I'm still glad we have the model because now that the model exists the model exists we can all always get some new rules in the future and that's fine right right okay uh I almost feel the exact opposite about slesh by the way just on that I'm like man I hate that they made so many dumb Archer units because now we're going to be compelled Dev dumb Archer units via focus in every book going forward right uh so like sometimes it's a curse to get new models take them back I don't want them okay all right now now let's let's let us turn our gaze forward and look into 2024 the year to come and let's talk about the major things we see going on the very first slide I've got it here that's right you remember this picture you know this picture you love this picture it was the herald of what was to be a new age when we saw this picture uh of Lord vandas hammerhand and the prosecutors and the liberators when we were all like what is this I saw this for the first time sitting at Hof brow house in Kentucky uh coming down to Tom's house to play a D and D Marathon myself and a couple of people we were there and I was looking at my phone and I was that was the last one that was the last one that was at my house yeah yeah there you go almost a decade ago yep and uh and I saw this picture and I was like whoa the world is changing like this is something something different okay and you know new additions have rolled on as they do every three years we've seen this pattern in both things we know it's what they're going to do so we assume so sure thing right let's just let's just put that prediction out there sure thing we're going to get an AOS 4 this year right because y uh not because they care about three years but because shareholder value says we're going to get a new addition okay have to appease Milton Freedman Vince gota do it absolutely uh hey thanks AVS I appreciate you dropping by to drop a like everyone else be cool like AVS and hit like or something like that okay by the way as we're going through this I want to know your predictions as well so let's just talk we're going to just assume for this this slide that the new addition is happening okay so what are our predictions for AOS 4.0 that's what we're going to go for here we've the they've they've gotten so tight with the additions that now the game isn't predicting whether or not we get a new addition the game is predicting what's in the new edition okay I will start while you guys think okay I am G To Boldly put a flag down and say sure thing scaven in the launch box there we go i' I've flag we we've been calling that for years like the last like 18 months you can't say that been living there for a while one prediction Tom we're all we can make multiple okay I'm giving this is me buying you guys time to think I'm being nice sure I I'll one up you I think it's going to be predominantly Asen in the Box okay okay right on right on good okay what what are you what are you what are you labeling that one you calling that sure thing as well yeah okay uh because that's what sells ninja rats ninja rat rats certainly certainly do sell yes okay very good uh Baron Lloyd said for years dot dot dot 18 months yeah exactly no it's you're absolutely right okay uh what else we got what do what do we want to see what do we think what do we hope what do we dream what do we predict it obviously we have reason to think that we're going to get some stormcast some old stormcast models will get refreshed into thunderstrike armor uh we have the thing with Realms of run the RTS video game uh we have ionus and so on right so maybe on the flip side some of those models might go away entirely might go to Legends I wonder some of those original 2015 20 yeah 2015 stormcast models sure do you think we'll get thunder strike liberators yeah yeah I just don't know that they're actually going to refresh everything like I wonder so what made me think of this is my ongoing conspiracy around judicators at 200 points okay and the travesty and the lack of love for the these lowly judicators that don't do anything in the game with the bows yeah the the crossbows can can do some work that I think they're going to get AED and it's just anyway well we have storm G right we have storm vigors we have Vig we got vigilar why do we need them yeah yeah yeah we have long strikes you know if you want crossbows yeah yeah so yeah my my precious junter cators are just going to go bye-bye entirely okay they're they're already dead vents let's just let just confirm it just kill it stop he's already dead yeah okay so we call the range we redesign what remains into thunder strike armor is that the prediction more or less yeah yeah okay um I mean so would this in include keeping units but redesigning the kits so that they're like multi- like multi- kits so like I can imagine a world where like if they decide to keep liberators and judicators they just move it so that they're the same core model with alternate build yeah yeah I could see that that'd be nice yeah that'd be interesting I mean they already were to some degree like I built all of my adjudicators originally out of Liberator bodies yeah I just ordered the like B hands yeah yep yep yeah we got bishers and and Victors you know that's oh and we have castigators for for crossbow we also have castigators for cross just so many just so many God in heaven there's too many duplicates in that range okay yeah a calling definitely feels in order so we're we're calling for a calling okay yeah storm cast man trim that line down okay very good could the could the great fracturing happen no you don't think so no no I I know there's no there's no setup for it no like not a like splitting like a but I just wonder like we've seen kind of glimpses over the years of like certain models being uh like we've seen again we saw the chapters like this is a a call out back in like second edition that I suggested going to Third Edition we might get this split right of like distinct Army books for the the the various Storm hosts or whatever like I just wonder what if they push certain product lines into certain like certain stormcast units into certain product like certain Storm hosts or whatever um I don't think so and I'll tell you why because the money's not there okay it's that simple like stormcast is a decently popular Army okay it generally has a good meta representation one of the higher meta representations right but in the end it's just another Army in the mix like it's high meta like it it at one point I think the highest it ever peaked in the history of AOS was about 12% of the meta some years back second edition yeah and now it's basically ridden for more or less Years Around the same place between five and 6% you know if you hold a tournament no matter what the state of St stormcast as far as its win rate or its performance The Meta you will get a couple stormcast players showing up right especially if you live anywhere near uh Matthew swinny for example sure but or Missouri we have so many stormcast players Missouri it's I would put us up as having the most in any for some reason in any state in this country it's wild but that percentage is nothing and I really cannot emphasize this enough no thing compared to Space Marine representation okay like Space Marines are the they're not they're like the plurality of armies in 40K with a huge lead okay they look like the they look like the Republican primary field right now basically as far as like how how the percentages are stacked out okay and it because like stormcasts are just like so indelibly 40K and have and and most 40K players like have a have a space space you mean space Rin are IND you said storm yeah sorry space Rin are indelibly 40K I apologize um and like they they just have like you know if you play 40K you probably have a Space Marine Army I have a Space Marine Army Tom I have a fully painted Space Marine Army okay I I've played it like once in in the newest edition right it's wild how many people own and collect Space Marines like they're they're in order of magnitude bigger is my point so they can afford to split off and have other books and stuff like that like they have the market to support that stormcast just doesn't it's just another Army in the end it may be the flagship faction of the game it may go on like the logos and have a statue out front but it does not have the the player based representation that's it what do we want to see mechanically like I mean a lot of people were saying the half inch of a half inch thing right or the battle brothers thing basically coming back and being in the rules I assume we're going to see that just built in let me ask you the question will for Edition finally be the death of the range on weapons or are we going to still keep a mixed profile I think we all agree we'll probably see the the fight in two ranks basically for lack of a better term okay um are we going to see uh them still retain weapon ranges or will they just kill that completely I I I think they'll probably keep it I'm not even sure I would personally want them to get rid of it I suspect it would improve quality of the game like in my mind one of the principles here as we've long discussed is okay let's think about what can we cut to reduce time in this game how how can we get back to 2:30 with yeah with with tournament games for example and just make this more accessible for casual players so that would be on my list of things that could be cut right off the gate right on the gate but what about the fire SL hand axes are they table wide what do you mean we're not talking weapon range on on ranged weapons Tom we're talking about melee range yeah M only melee range I real quick Tom I do love obviously I I love the the you know the gameplay Nuance of ranges right it it makes it's interesting you know screening and you can do various tricks and there there's there's depth there that's intriguing right to competitive players it's just yeah anyway so then let me ask this yeah let's say that we do kill let's say that we do kill weapon ranges yeah melee R yeah how do you resolve is it um if you're within three inches you can attack no it's it'd be the standard thing like it was it's like you either do it there's a couple different ways it could work but like here's a simple here's a simple potential you're within half an in inch of an enemy or an inch of an enemy and then you're within a half an inch of somebody within a half an inch or an inch of an enemy that's it so what you're proposing is all of the abilities that stop pyin become infinitely worse uh well first of all good um no and what I'm saying is I mean talk about how much i' love to make pyin simpler and kill the crap no no no you're you're hear you're you are mishearing me when I say worse I'm not saying better for the game I'm saying worse for the game why because if if everything moves to a half inch weapon range that like any if if you have any way to stop you make an restrict just be everybody's an inch or a half somebody within an inch that all that's fine that's all still worse than having a three-inch range even when you can't Pile in being able to attack with your primary like basically no one has a threein range so what are we talking about other than single model most range I'm talking about like monster monster weapon ranges yeah okay so what so monsters fight monsters are going to be in contact with the thing they're fighting not if they can't P if they're within three inches and can't pile they're like the concern here would be big boys right right we you're saying like what they get trapped somewhere stuck on something and can't actually Pile in point they get stuck on something they get behind any any unit that's not their unit but three inches of an enemy like any unit that's like they get they can't reach over the top anymore is your point they can't reach over the top anymore right or or abilities that shut down pylons which there it's not just one or two there are one or two that are egregious but there are many in The Meta that are out there legitimately I would love it if uh if if here's what I'll say here here's how I'd rank this I don't think they'll get rid of weapon get rid of weapon ranges and let me tell you why the sheer number of Scrolls it would require them to update and reformat sure yeah that's it the actual manh hours I literally think that's why it doesn't go away okay should it yeah probably and then by the way on those big monsters you just write back into to them that they that they have a 3in threat range or something on the few big monsters you need to or you make it a function of the monster type right that monsters themselves have it or whatever what I'm suggesting is like I think I I think it's a design track because of all of not only the obvious primary consequences of a change like that but the secondary and tertiary it'll take it'll take 18 months to work that out in the system balanceit or Tom or they'll just do it right sure to work out the balance you mean like when coherency randomly changed and and then a bunch of units became utter garbage they really put a lot of work into figuring out the balance of that didn't they no they just changed and then a bunch of units went in the bin right and that's and that's what I'm saying is that the whole meta like the whole thing like they all suffer for 18 months until that works itself out that's what I'm suggesting I one I don't think it would be as big a deal as you're saying is is my honest answer I think in the vast majority of combats the vast majority of combats vast vast Duncan Idaho vast okay it just doesn't matter you go up your models go in and attack the monster the monster is fighting you back that's how it works right that's most people's experience with the game in angle shooting is where it ends up becoming a problem most of the time sure sure okay now that being said I really don't think they'll kill weapon range as I said because of the cheer just man hours they'd have to put into it but I do think we'll get the rule of like I think it'll be weapon range or you fight within you fight withinin the range and the weapons the weapon range stays there as a back stop that's it yeah okay so to get out some of the ones that I mean we've hit before what by the way what are we putting the weapon range change at I'm going to put it at 50/50 I'm saying it's a 50/50 yeah I think it's hopium I think it's hopium I I cannot imagine them changing weapon because of all the secondary cons there be lot time yeah there' be a lot like like from just from a balance standpoint and just because then if we do that you're talking about a ravening hord's entire product like update of everything in order to update all Scrolls perfect next question you just you tripped to the next question do the books carry over or do we do we do we index at fourth edition this would be the time we've gone three editions time to index every three additions you Index this is the rules this is the rules make it I'm pretty sure they're we're gonna get indexed there's no way there's no way disgust gentlemen I mean 40K just got it and yeah 8th 9 10th that was their third yeah Tom I just I I say I I don't know if it's NE I mean who knows it I worried that it's likely to be a a net negative at least in the the near term I mean but yeah I don't know I mean the tldr is I I think it's probably gonna happen do you know how many War scrolls are in the game it's a ton man I know no let me start again do you know how many War scrolls are in the stormcast book sure sure 79 yep close enough yeah and how many and how many battle TOS do we have uh like 24 I think 24 yeah mhm yep they don't all have 79 Scrolls but I understand that but we have well over a thousand War Scrolls yes I've said it's a major hurdle your point it would make life easier if they just bend the whole thing off and indexed it right like start from scratch I don't think so I I think the amount of work that you're suggesting if they're going to index would be it's enormous and it would like I I think that they don't have the bandwidth when we see the problems that we see on like roll outs and stuff like that I don't think that they have the bandwidth to to roll it out maybe one thing in your favorite one thing what would put me a foot in your Camp is that I think it's fair to say 40K ninth Edition had a lot more issues sure than AOS Third Edition no doubt like right so just the conclusion being that we don't necessarily need to go in and gut this thing and make substantial changes blah blah blah right we need to remove some things streamline some things but yeah so that would certainly like that through that lens I could have a foot in your camp on that okay okay ultimately historically every three additions is when we went to indexes and sort of Bend everything and started over right yeah I think what the real answer to that question is is not is is not really uh it can't be answered itself it's how much do they want to mess with the core rules of the game it's how much do they feel the need to do the every three Edition Shuffle that we've historically done in Warhammer where every basically fourth edition was a was a massive change right and like basically every sort of 10-year period you you get this big change and that's when this one's du right um this will be at like the nine-year mark so we're we're there and so it's the question of do they feel it's worth it do they do they change enough of the core rules that they're like well we've none of the old books work so we've got to do it we're under the gun right right or do they try to go no continue living Edition we'll keep hopping this and keep going and and do the battle toome Shuffle again right and we'll go fourth edition and we'll we'll release the 24 battle TOS all over again what I'll say is this if they are it depends I the real question then is is how much of the core game is changing yeah that's what I'm saying gu if they're willing to B Bend like Battle Tactics and stuff like that right if they're willing to B all that moving into the new edition then I could see it happening I also don't think that they they're going to do that like you could imagine lots of it doesn't even necessarily need to be anything large you could imagine it just being Death By A Thousand Cuts what I mean there is imagine that let's let me just walk you through a sequence here Tom okay let's say the spell casting rules change in in some way maybe it's a minor way maybe it's not okay but maybe they they change in some way uh and then the moving spell casting to every phase I I don't know sure like okay that's sure that's probably bigger than what I was thinking but let's say yes okay sure okay um but you could you could also just have spells move into a more keyworded type thing where they have certain interactions or stuff like that right one of the great problems we've always had with spells is they they don't have a layer down theyve the spells in Warhammer have always in AOS at least sorry have been missing what uh D and D long ago figured out is that other typographies assist than when you need to create more rules later what I mean by that is D and D from the earliest periods had evocation versus abjuration versus illusion right and so you could create things and characters and and stuff like that that were good with that particular type thing but not as good with other things right and when you're rolling a 2d6 magic system one of the big big big problems is that we're not dealing with the typography spells or spells or spells right other than endless spells which occupy their own spells that summon endless spells are their only the only thing that's different so like creating a typography where you could say this wizard has plus one to cast this type of spells would actually open up a new significant space because right now their only choice is plus one to cast and that's such a massive bonus right because then it goes out and applies to everything ever they ever print right they sometimes they' they can construe it tightly and say like everything in this lore that's really the most control they have right now right so anyways okay B they Chang that a little heroic actions let's say they rewrite those they all heroic actions are different now they're smart you roll the dice first and they all work on a set dice roll and then have some bonus like we've proposed let's say they changed Battle Tactics in some decently significant way but they're still around as a secondary objective right let's say they go in and rewrite the enhancements section completely because it's trash and nobody knows how the heck to use it when they first start let's say they go in and change monsterous Rampages some let's say we have the battle brothers thing put automatically into combat okay whatever right you you just describe our movement from second to Third Edition yeah it's my my point is you could get enough of those changes that now the old books get really weird and they do have to go an index as becomes necessary because not because we made any single huge change but because we made enough small ones and I guess what I would say is that everything that you just described was literally the move from second to Third and if that and if that didn't constitute a need for a ravening hordes up right I don't know what like I like to me they would have to they would have to change core mechanics sure yeah okay to to to Really to really constitute a a need I don't know man the reason I say is because like in second edition a lot of the stuff just worked whereas like it was just base books or and we didn't even have all the books whereas we're still running on first edition books for God's sakes for a while we were literally like our the only command abilities that were out there were the core command abilities that's what everybody did every turn whereas now they've integrated so much of this crap into everybody's individual books like everybody's Third Edition books has like unique heroic actions and monsters ramp pages and you know like my point is you could change less and have the impact be greater than what you're describing because that stuff didn't exist in second edition Toms or first edition Toms so when they suddenly introduced new stuff and piled it on top didn't matter cuz there was nothing there to change if you're going to trim back and not add then the books become weird sure that's the only Point okay uh all right I'd say if you're if I'm GNA put a bet on it I'd honestly think it's I don't know man I'd probably go 5050 I'd come down right in the middle I could see it being an index Thing by the by I'm not even sure I'd hate it if books go going forward were like some amalgam of 40K and what we saw in the old world where it's like here's a good guy book here's a bad guy book or here's a here's a chaos book here's a destruction book here's a death book here's a uh uh destruction book whoever I forgot I don't know whatever they did they did that when we moved into AOS where you basically had the four Grand Alliance TS I understand and then but instead use what you learned in Dawn brers and armies of renown and print individual Toms but they just give specialized Army in some way that completely replace right so some combination of like 40K and what they were talking about with old world but anyways neither here nor there like the base conception exists in this in this single tone go ahead backing up backing up guys I'm a little unclear on where you two stand on the current state of the AOS core roles uh how to complicated uh but but mostly good okay and then Tom uh I would say too complicated I'm more new and why are you what in particular makes you more neutral uh I like I I truly uh I truly feel that Battle Tactics are aox on all things that are fun about this like I think that the the way that Battle Tactics have been integrated into the larger competitive scene as well as the way that they have um been uh like not only the world that we live in not only are they now being introduced in books they're being added in uh updates like War scroll update stuffff right in order to balance Army factions like think about that like the competitive performance the way that they're fixing some armies is giving them easier Battle Tactics so that they can Auto they can Auto get tournament points yeah sure like to me like that is poison I agree like that is that is like and so that entire sub so inside baseball it does not materially change the experience of playing the Army correct all of that just needs to be jettison straight out the window like all of that is death but but here's the deal I think you can get rid of all that and still keep a maintain a very core very playable game there are events that do that and and so but I think the experience as it is now like scenarios don't matter what matters is can you get all five hold on let me clarify something because it's being discussed in the comments yeah when I'm saying these Grand Alliance books what I don't mean like just everything's soup that's not what I'm describing nor do I think they'll bring back grand allance stuff other than in sort of a narrative capacity what I'm describing is more like what you saw with ravening hordes and forces of fantasy or whatever in the Old World stuff where instead of putting out an individual battle toone for every Army the addition launches and you get four books one for each Grand Alliance and in that book is the individual Army rules for the standard version of that Army okay the simplified standard version of that Army you get a destruction book that has an iron Jaws rules it has uh this is the iron Jaws section you open to the section it has iron Jaws points iron Jaws Scrolls iron Jaws abilities Allegiance abilities yep and like a one page description of what this faction is and then you go change the page and you hit Gloom fight gets and this is what the Gloom fight Gs are and it's the entire core of what it takes to play that Army in the game um in 20 Pages or 30 pages or whatever and you basically have an entire Grand Alliance in a single book for and then from that point on you don't update the core you only update like regiments of renown or armies of renown style updates correct you replace right so like here's the base here's the function you can stop here forever and be done yeah but then here we're going to publish this thing the the Grandy toy expand motica okay of stormcast and in it it has armies of renown that basically you can say Okay throw out you don't use those rules at all you only use what's in here armies of renown bringer style I think they're gon to make a lot less money like I'd be very interested to see what the like the economics are because what it's what it says is you don't have 24 guaranteed releases set out just updating battle toes that is lying Through Math you need to think that thought through again and you need to step back and really think that through what you just said okay okay how many people buy all 24 books uh anybody a portion a small portion of the player base van probably no way no freaking way no freaking way one in 20 players has all every buys every battle to not even a chance no way nope the problem had has always classically been when they make these individual battle TOS that they're selling that battle to to four to 5% of the audience that's always been the problem this adds for B like everybody who you've already gotten the tank who loves that Army is going to buy the thing anyways when you do your expansion book this gives you four more Toms that has a lot more popularity because you've crushed all of those percentages together so now if you play any of the death armies you buy this book and more people will buy four since it's only four and not 24 you lower the barrier to owning the rules to all armies when you make it four books and you've still got them in the tank for there you would sell more books in the way I'm describing not less yeah I don't I'm not sure about that I mean I can math it out pretty easy it's not a hard business case like right now the the way these TOS are released is so singular okay bunch of people come and watch the show like all every time we do a battle toone review show it's always our most popular shows course y because everybody wants to know right but most of those people aren going to buy a book if you're not in the tank for that Army you're just going to read it on wedia or whatever why would you go buy the book for not your army unless you're like a tournament grinder and even then you probably just read it on wedia like it is collectors that buy every book and that is a vanishingly small percentage book collectors in this case you start with four main books that you can charge a premium for I would add okay and every one of those four books you're going to get you've now crunched together the percentage so at minimum all of your other players come together and they buy that so youve turn 4% into 20% or whatever okay but you also will get people upscaling because they'll be split across some of the books with their couple armies and so they'll buy more of them as time goes on and you release your supplementary expand edias you'd actually like the people who were really in the tank for the Army who right now would buy the battle toone will still go buy this thing too nothing changed but now you got them to buy two books for their one Army not one before you were selling that person one book over the course of the addition now you're selling them two it's that easy what I am describing would be a better experience for everyone and make them more money that's it now I don't know if they'll have the the business savvy to actually make a product line that would work like this but hey who knows all right let's keep going what else new addition wise what else what else haven't we mentioned new addition I do think we will see a change to Battle Tactics I doubt they're going away yeah yeah Tom I doubt are going to go away uh which I mean personally I would like to see the system maintain a secondary system it needs to be better implemented than what we have currently what we've had Isis I think it would be a better world to live in if we have our casual uh you know sort of the general audience version of the game without Battle Tactics as we've discussed a lot and then you have our annual GHB and that has an annual set of Battle Tactics and then you have maybe each battle plan with X number of Battle Tactics built in and that's it and that's all that we use we don't have battle to Battle Tactics I think that'd be a better world uh more constraint you know in the options Etc uh but yeah I have a hard time saying that they're going to do away with Battle Tactics entirely yeah I don't know I I think they could change it in 50 ways that would be better than than what it is I I agree with you I'd like to see more stuff baked into the battle plans um like there's there's 10 good ways you could do it that aren't that aren't like Tom's describing and and frankly I agree with you to me I'd call it a I'd call it a sure thing we're going to see some kind of change to it but that might be just me pushing it up over 50/50 out of pure hope so yeah this this probably not the time to do it but yeah it would be curious Tom to talk more sometime about why I mean i' actually never heard you quite go this far or at least I don't remember going this far where you essentially are saying you think a secondary system is poison what I'm hearing is a secondary system is poison through the game that's you're saying a universal secondary system is poison because it's what actually drives the performance not the primary system I would argue that I think the the better design is uh is individual secondaries per like per like you write a scenario and there are associated secondaries with that scenario yeah yeah because like I because then like it yeah um yeah like just real quick here like the Joe McGill said the biggest change to secondary objectives has to be removing the necessity to score them in all five rounds or you lose right I think that's kind of what you're P one of the things you're pushing on there strongly Tom right like you could imagine the system changing to be where like there's eight universals and at the start of each game you pick three of them secretly and over the course of the game you have to accomplish all three of those right you could even potentially do two in one round or something like that right but if you get your three get your three but you have five rounds to do the three of them they can be done simultaneously they can be done separately you can skip around that kind of thing it would loosen it but still allow it to be there those kinds of things you could imagine I'm not saying that's a perfect system I'm saying that is more of a move where it doesn't become like oops I dropped one I lose right right yeah that's that's a very good point yeah because I mean the the real meta right now is playing playing Battle Tactics and if you can play all your Battle Tactics you can reliably uh perform in The Meta like you can reliably perform and win events like that's that's the long and the short of it like I hate when I begin dreaming up lists and then everybody's like well why haven't you included a surf unit or whatever you know like I'm thinking about FC in order for your battle tactic and so at that point like Battle Tactics Drive list composition yeah you're talking about how you can we can make lists full of whatever you want it's like yeah but those lists very easily become trash because they can't actually play the real game that's going on right because the real game is the battle tactic game not the Warhammer game with scenarios that I thought we were playing right yeah I personally would just take that one level higher you're playing the game to 28 yeah yeah with you're not playing the killing game necessarily there's a lot playing the game to 28 you're playing the game to 28 is I think is because primary is still relevant but yeah but every single point matters particularly on against good players these games yeah like I I was following the Championships and so many of those games were like onepoint games and like very very very tight right with the scoring system that we have so anyhow yeah uh what else uh terrain that's a big one we've emphasized a lot a real terrain system I I have to believe come on fourth edition sure thing get it in there yeah has to be I would also say my other sure thing for for New Edition is um uh we will see a better uh on-ramp system for new players I hope so yeah the equivalent of the combat Patrol over whatever in 40K like I there is no Universe where they didn't look at what 40K did and go well we don't we have nothing to do here we're good they absolutely have to know that uh that they have a real problem right now with the the addition and like actually getting new players in the game yeah yeah like it's so clear signis Maximus says nope no real terrain system just a return of battle toome chaos dread hold yes the real Champion we've all been waiting for okay man those things are going to be worth money in the future they're gonna be so rare sure sure okay I think we've plumbed the new addition to to the bottom of this well um uh CJ said will it be will it be Vanguard or will they re re box I don't know man probably Vanguard type of thing vangard but but you know who knows that feels like what they've been aiming at for a while although that though they may still rebok some of them on top of that as they like want to rebalance things or whatever so all right we ready to keep going next one what up so I did have oh yeah oh I'm a left turn you all that's right you didn't think that we were going to talk about this but we are the new old world that's right we're going to do old world predictions you ready let's here here we go folks you thought it wasn't going to happen it is we talk about Warhammer on this show of the fantasy variety so get into it uh so now it's time for Old World predictions lock in okay he uh here's what I think here's I I'll start while you guys formulate some opinions since I I'm gonna be I want to be quiet this entire segment nope you must have opinions that is the requirement uh I think this is going to be one of the like I think Old World in general they are going to have an uphill climb and by that what I mean is they are releasing a very complicated game full of a lot of reconstituted very old models using potentially some rules that are very outdated in a world of other Rank and flank systems that have continued to advance in the decade intervening right uh but it is very Warhammer and Nostalgia does sell product it sells launch boxes really well the question is does it make long-term players okay and I think that turns completely on one those like I think those whatever they called them Arcane encyclopedia thingies uh how good those are and how much do they let you actually you know kind of build the Army you want and play the the your version of the army you can imagine and stuff like that right because if they have alternate armies or blah blah blah or whatever how how much can you build the thing you want to build play the army you want to play cuz that was the that was the thing that is the thing that fantasy lacked that AOS delivered was you had you were empowered to make your army your own right that was really hard in fantasy and so if those things deliver then that's a big deal and the other thing I'll say is it's going to be almost completely down to how good are the new models whatever the new models are for the other armies they come out with how good are those new models and how much is that encouraged like Beyond this bretonian and tomb King stuff we've seen yeah you know do we actually get the delivery of remember when they were talking all about kiss Lev and all that constantly having heard PE one about that recently okay like do we get stuff that delivers on the promise of what was in total war or what the old world could have been or on these other things okay uh do we get kits that live up to that I think that's the big question for me in the old world right Tom you got thoughts on this I'm okay if if I'm the only one predicting by way I think the success of it is going to be dependent upon accessible um old kits are for purchase okay um and I think that this is like this is not something like I think that they like I don't know how they've solved this problem but they're going to release a game where 90% of the models are not available unless like Andor very old best case they're very old made of metal or resin right right right best case they're very old but like are like is the entire system going to revolve around a rotated rotating made to order system or because it's not going to be on demand they can't keep up like normal GW can't keep their normal main games product lines in stock sure let alone specialist games sure and so like I think in a very like in a very real sense they are maybe assuming that there's a lot of product out there that people can find armies to play this and I think that that is death like that is a death sentence to the success of old world like if you want old world to be successful the models you like you have to be able to go you know what I want to start a high Elf Army I need to go buy one well if you're going to go to eBay right now that doesn't exist not unless you're going to spend $3,000 and buy one of the two Sky cutter chariots that are on eBay for $250 or or whatever right like let alone any of the other product lines have been basically discontinued like some stuff is fairly Evergreen from AOS like they could pull that in but a lot of it isn't and a lot of it is just gone and so starting those armies are going to be difficult um and so the question is is how accessible are old kits going to be okay um because they're making an entire game based on models that you can't you don't actually like you can't get to build armies and I that's say that's why I'm saying even if they're accessible let's say they're all released let's say they just run enough copies out of these old molds okay you've still got the problem that the that that you're that 90% of your kids that's being generous are made of metal resin and 20-year-old plastic right like that's not going to be a positive experience putting together the the finecast brettonian truche or whatever is not going to be a positive experience okay putting together like the metal bone giant or whatever remember that thing if that thing still exists in Tomb Kings it's not going to be a positive experience okay uh so like not only do all the kits have to be available even in the best case where they are they're still going against even their other game and the other 10% of their units that are new flashy stuff that looks really cool yeah and you're relaunching a game that failed because of like in the market the market rejected this game you can be sad about the demise of the old world and that's fine I understand if people are emotionally attached to this thing but like the market did Judge this thing a failure the icv two reports towards the end wormer fantasy fell off the chart for a couple reports that's insane that means it wasn't in the top five selling games in its category all right so its Revenue was in the trash yeah and how much of this are you really going to sell the other problem with them not resculpting everything Tom with these old kits like you talk about the availability of old kits I'm not actually sure that's even the biggest hurdle my real problem is like we looked at those launch boxes earlier right yep I could put that entire launch boox sans's new croca boss and on the table right now I have all that stuff I have it right now I don't need to buy a single model I still have them all square based same with the ponum I have tons of knights ready to go I've got peasants I've got Bowman I've got everything reliquaries and Trey bashet and Peg Knights I've got the whole shooting match right what would make me go buy new stuff is making new models yeah yeah like like a kiss love Army like a kisslo army but so much of this is going to at launch will just be old existing Plastics that most of their target market the Persona that they've targeted already own already has yeah yeah it's funny um I want to kind of make my point like I hear that but I want to make my point very like poignant we just released an army book like a new book cities of Sigmar couple months ago right two months ago yep half half of that line is not available right now from GW sure you know what the irony is most of it is Old World stuff sure all the dark elf stuff all the dwarf stuff um most of the stuff that you would actually expect for a game like this isn't even available and that's a current game y That's a current line that they just launched and half of it half of the kits aren't available came out in the book that or that are in the book let me say it that like that's a problem sure so I think production capabilities will will likely hinder any growth this game might have so you know that's that's it's it's a challenge I'm I'm very interested to see where this goes over the course of the year my prediction is the initial launch boxes will sell very well okay because they won't make a ton of them and they'll basically sell out which will encourage this sort of like fomo attitude right but then how much do do we get the releases to support it for the rest of the year how much do we have new kits how much actual of it do we see it being played that kind of thing right like is there going to be an Old World tournament at adepticon I assume right probably yeah how many people we getting right I'm not saying I expect it to be the equivalent of AOS year one of course that'd be insane 24 right uh that' be higher than that let's say at least 40 okay right how many people are showing up to these tournaments that kind of thing yeah yeah 40 might be conservative but anyway yeah I I just personally I don't have a lot of opinions on this guys yeah this is just kind of outside of my scope of knowledge and yeah I mean a lot of thoughts run through my head but they're a little ancillary like I'm thinking about 3D printing and getting into like like what what's there's another problem in in a world of no you're absolutely right in a world of selling generic fantasy kits from 20 years ago into now into a market where 3D printing is so Rife and like you know Rob's doing his whole square based podcast he just printed he just 3D printed out his whole fantasy Army for all his buying old buying this I'm not buying your I am not buying your repackaged models from 20 years ago I'm just going to 3D print my something that looks you know way better uh for pennies yeah yeah yeah so yeah because it's just generic Concepts RIT large all right but yeah it'll be very interesting I don't know like bloodb has been able to be successful but is is bloodb a reasonable analogy to this maybe not way hor heresy would be the probably hor heresy has to be the one you compare it to yeah absolutely yeah yeah like they can't accept blood bll numbers on this right no but horse heresy like they don't have as many like regimented events do like it's more um it is more like lore based and it is more like narrative isn't it like that a community I don't that's my impression I'm not sure that's certainly my impression based upon locally and the players I I don't know the the I don't know the Horus heresy Community I mean I'll say there's a pretty big event at um uh at Nova but I can't speak beyond that so okay I mean hey look interesting road ahead for the old world all right I'll take us out of this let's get back to AOS now that i' now that I've left now that I've swerved you uh okay let's talk new battle Toms um we talked a little bit about this earlier uh I mean we're done with battle TOS now let see well release in the new you think you think oh you're saying you're not predicting that we're done with battle TOS like you're not taking a hard line on that I'm I'm saying yeah I'm not saying that I'm saying I'm making a factual statement we now have battle TOS for the 24 armies of AOS I'm I'm just calling the FEC went out even though like blah blah blah sh release yada y y we all get it it's like this SD thing from last year in January we'll get the book itself and the other models but like their book is out it exists okay are we getting any additional battle to s pre- launch of fourth edition question number one question number two by the way I have a separate slide for ancillary Toms or ancillary books so we'll talk about those in a moment question number two is if no is it just all ancillary books from here on out have we gotten any confirmation about how many Dom bringer books there are we know there's five have we heard if there's six or have they given a final number we know there's four I don't think they said the fifth one oh that's right that's right I was counting the we were we were we were estimating five because of how early they started the okay five has been a number I've seen in past variations of this I can't remember what malign ports was I know the were all of them were four prior yeah theing okay whatever the last 40K narrative was called they had five you know the abidon and all yeah all of that stuff that was five I saw so okay probably five four or five I doubt we're going to get a faction battle toone there's always the possibility that we'll be surprised and we'll get a legitimate new faction release before fourth edition I would be pretty surprised by that but I mean that's possibility there's no way there is no way yeah we will not get a pre fourth edition faction yeah I exactly I'd have to I'd almost call it a sure thing as well we're done with the FEC B comes out and we're done with battle toes until yeah 4.0 yep yep now you may get like some updates or whatever in the two like faction updates some new models model updates or whatever in the in the two additional books that I think we're going to get but I don't think that you're going to get any new faction book yeah yeah that seems likely yeah so that then one question is with the fifth well seemingly we are the uson is the yeah will be the fourth book and then it'll beers yeah and then fifth would maybe involve we'll talk about it in a second hold on keep your powder dry on Inc books we're sticking to battle Toms here battle TOS only battle TOS only I did thought on Battle Toms this year vents so I was thinking back okay how many battle Toms did we get during a launch year and what I could remember was mostly three yeah nor normally during launch year we'll get three to four and then in year two we get flooded yeah exactly it's like it it's like yeah um stormcast night hunt and then it was like I don't know fire Slayers or something and then it was yeah stormcast War Clans and nurgle and that was it with the launch of Third Edition in 2021 that's all we got right and then yeah exactly Tom it was like 10 to 12 I'm not sure we can draw on the historical Paradigm here though that's the issue well it depends like so for example in a world where they move to this new alternate like codex situation right where they release these Grand Alliance the whole Army and one these four Evergreen books another yet another reason this would be good to do that by the way because it would mean You' get all these books at launch right hypothetically and then what you would like seemingly have to do is or do like you would go you would move towards yearly narrative like yearly campaign like narrative arcs where five to you know some number of books are released over a 12-month period that each of those books have some degree of story some degree of army of renown you know it would be the exactly the type of model book that we're seeing right now basically on rotation for three years before you get a new addition I I think okay let's let's talk about the two paradigms here okay okay Paradigm one is they keep the current system of battle toes yeah yeah right okay all right if they keep the current system of battle TOS I don't think you can look back at the previous two launches as any predict of what you would see here let me unpack that the launch into second edition was really them going okay uh yeah I guess we know what we're doing with AOS now because first edition wasn't was an all over the place mess right right right okay so they were so busy fixing the core system and trying to figure out what they wanted rules the rules to be and introducing endless spells and nonsense and all of that right like it was they were still building the plane as it was flying through the air right mhm and so that's why I I I just they didn't even really have the concept of what a battle toome was in their head when they started planning second edition's launch right because we only got sventh partway through first you know like for most of second we were relying on like freaking white dwarf updates and and GHB and other dumb crap yeah okay so then we mooved to third the launch of third and there's no way their release schedule went how it was supposed to because remember that thing that happened for about two and a half years remember that there was a slight disruption in the world they released the cats movie and then a month later we all got never left our house again for two years basically right um like that's it was in the middle of the pandemic and so they were incredibly disrupted in their schedule because of global shipping and everything else like their their own ability to output and all of that right so in my mind under the Paradigm where they keep just doing like a battle tone per per Army like we just keep on the current trajectory basically and say okay let's not rock the boat which by the way you've got to rock the boat you can't just do the same thing forever otherwise people just eventually lose interest you know there's no formula so solid that it just works forever I will say Vince real quickly I'm just another data point is 40k 10th is on this Paradigm Right Now Yep they're going to get four books this year the two launch and then two more adeptus mechanicus and necrons and that's it right so I don't yeah it is it is a data point that's that's a data point I could get behind but in my mind if they're going to stick on the battle CH thing they should be aiming at like 5 six something like that and then realistically 12 to 14 the next year and then close it out in the second half of or in the first half of the year after So within the first two years you have all your TOS that's got to be their goal internally I mean that's that's largely what we did this year such that you go moving into your third year you only have Nar books right like yes we've had like we had two updated TOS but one is like almost a full rewrite of a of a prior tone which would be cities so I mean in my mind it's like a situation where um the the the problem that this continually presents is that it puts it on the battle to treadmill and yes it does give them something to constantly talk about but again they could always you could do that with the sort of expand opedia like I talked about but let's assume that's Paradigm one Paradigm two is yeah they do go a different direction they index it out and then introduce something and to in some anary way right then we go back on the battle to grind again so let's take some big swings here post forth okay let's assume we keep the same world our launch boox we've all said is is is stormcast and scaven we all agree there's no need to argue about it it's 100% true don't worry about it just a shest thing asterisk it is not a sure thing but that's okay we're all hoping that would mean we get those two those two TOS yeah yep who else gets the TOs who else gets the year one TOS who are your people in year one who are your golden children that get the first hes yeah uh Tommy going to guess this I need to think about it uh War Clans okay sure yeah just be to actually like squat out the the um the Savage Orcs And and maybe nigh okay um simply because like what we often can see is that the the armies that were prior launch boxes from prior years end up being the earlys of the next years because those are those are like when you're looking at a proportion of people who have models you're hitting a majority of the of like like the armies that most people have be from prior editions um and then and to do both like War Clans and night haunt you would also hit both older books and books that have um that hit all the grand alliances it's also important I think that the books they my particular guess is the books they release in the first year they have to be ones where they don't plan on any significant model expansions because they just don't have the production run to get it going because so much of the factory will be turned to producing whatever the launch boxes because they need to like you know the story about the the 10th edition launch box was that basically like for months the factory just ran that right or everything y that that was like the primary thing taking up most of their capacity so assumingly it's a similar situation right so they'd want to stick to armies where they're not planning any kind of additional real release of any major kind and night hunt and uh War Clans whatever they're stable they're stable do that they're both stable where they both have already they they've had expansions they have plenty of models um you know Iron jaw's already just recently got their release so like neither of these really need anything else yeah like if you want your models redone you do not want your book coming in the first year is what I'm saying sure right but it it needs real cleanup I mean obviously a lot of folks think bone spitters got we got a lot of reasons to think bone Splitters are going to get axed and yeah we have the IG supplement that needs to get incorporated into actual battle toone and yeah so I I could easily see that as well maybe you get like one new unit or a new hero something the usual little treatment for cruel boys that probably are sitting on more cruel boy model cruel boys models I think we saw a war band of war cry or underworlds with a with a CR boy unit so yeah I think that's a good guess okay all right Ro on and let's assume four Toms is our is our sort of cap that's what we that would be the most we can historically predict I'll say that if we got four we'd be we'd be at the high end of historical averages as much as those data points as I said can actually be used as a to elaborate on so we could get a couple more bonus ones but that that would be sort of the thing and you know the problem is I I I saw everybody in the chat throwing in their options by the way if you haven't hit like yet folks hit like do all those fun things appreciate it uh for our lengthy discussion here if we've said anything you like or not hit like anyways it's fine we appreciate it uh for this holiday show that's that's a you if if you want to give us all a gift a like is certainly nice um but the the the the thing to me with it is everybody had their own things they put in there and probably has reasons why not just because it's the army they play I mean I'm sure some people just put the armies they play in there right but everybody probably has people probably had plenty of other reasons too IDK because it feels like it needs it a lot or slanesh because the book is terrible or uh you know whatever right pick your poison yeah you could you could go like tons of explanations and this is the problem with the battle toome treadmill right is that everybody wants their book right away because they all quote unquote need it right and you're just on that forever so there you go uh all right so let's go oh yeah yeah I was I was gonna say Vin one guess I mean I could see something that got a notable update through the dawn brers might be an early battle toome so like as we'll get into I'm thinking the fifth Dawn brers will be chaos related and slaves and corn and yeah so maybe maybe we might see corn battl toone with with the updated models from the da Bringers book five something like that um but yeah I think I think it's a very good point made that you know it's going to be something that's not going to have a major expansion refresh whatever yep and and again this is why I would love the sort of GA book model plus expanded opas right is because then everybody would start on equal footing everybody would have I mean the yeah I mean like so do battle releases quote unquote you don't you don't do battle releases in with the expand opedia you're doing expand opedia releases right but so one of the challenges that I think with that is that you'll you'll no long like books of lore dedicated to armies if you do that so like there's no that's what the expand pedias have l in them that's your major story stuff that's the huge thing you're doing in there I understand that like the the progressing The Narrative but I'm talking about why the what the gore tide is and how is it different skull Reapers and it's not because those don't exist in the main rules that's not a thing I mean we're not using I hear that but here's the challenge is that you have like named characters like corus Cole and stuff like that yeah that are like that are baked into the lore that are or like in stormcast you have you have Storm hosts yeah and like certain Storm hosts have identity with certain named characters like vanis or whoever else sure and like you you would just need to like write them out completely no why would you write them out completely because um unless you are like GW has leaned heavily into the design like ghettoization design regarding um named characters and wanting and and pushing down this like World of subaction I think that I think that we are like to suggest that we're going to move away from that completely seems like a far stretch to me I would imagine we still have subaction um even if the subactions are literally like a single ability like they've been being written in the last you know the last handful of battle does I mean maybe I'm saying we don't need it it's extra weight we don't need if you if you go that down my my model like I think we have subactions as a fluke of History not because they're in any way required for the Army like it it is a it it is it is an organically it is a thing that accidentally organically evolved I understand that but then how do you like because some factions are so tied into their subfacet you're saying that starborn and uh coest are not subactions they are absolutely not the subactions are kad's claw and so on those are the don't uh me those are subfacet and starborn are not that they're some extra thing that they have okay it just is like I'm not pulling this out of nowhere here they don't appear on a page and have a little logo and say like here arborn here's your little rule that's not what they are and it's not how it works they are an extra thing that's that saraon has and there's no reason that extra thing wouldn't still exist yeah I don't know I like maybe maybe like the the the sort of named hero problem or any of that like again if you want to simplify let's simplify okay like we could do this and actually make this an accessible game here's corn bam it's these 20 Pages you want to play corn here it is this is all you ever need in this chaos book and then the corn expandipcidrrange it doesn't matter that he's whatever he is he's just there he's just a thing you can take okay and when the expanded comes out you have the gorti army of renown or whatever and corus I don't remember if corus call is gorti or whatever I think he is but he is he has like War scroll abilities that that only affect gour tide units y I understand that but obviously we're rewriting those things if we're doing the this model right and what I'm suggesting is is I think that that is way too heavy of a design sign I don't think GW would take that t on on their like uh in their in the updating of an Edition maybe I don't know man I don't think any of us sitting back in 1999 at the end of fifth edition thought what that the world was going to look like what it did when six came out like maybe the turkey doesn't think it's gonna get its head cut off until Thanksgiving day and it's getting its head chopped off like I mean like there's no reason to believe that the past has to resemble the future or the sorry the future has to resemble the past with with with what GW writes right so there you go um okay at any rate let's talk about new ancillary books Tyler I'm starting with you on this one you've got to be quiet for a minute as Tom and I argued in classic classic Tom and Vince fashion uh okay uh new and sillary books ghb's narrative books other books we already talked about I agree there'll be a dawnbringer book five I to clearly a five book Arc we're not ending on on on the Dead Guy sure we got talk about what we think is gonna be in there of course of course but here's what I want to know Tyler yeah yeah with the coming of fourth we will get a new GHB yep what do you want to see in that GHB Tyler what's your hopes for that let's start there we're going to have one GHB for the year because they they've committed to the yearly thing MH what should be in that book Tyler like there to be a multiplayer system uh I think it would be really good for them to turn the GHP into a more expensive product that accounts right for a broader variety of of Interest so multiplayer like a Triumph and treachery some kind of system like that team format uh in general would be a huge thing I think to actually have a a better fleshed out or or just a real team tournament system yes brother amazing and oh gosh what else I think we I feel like wasn't too bad last time around I mean maybe there's too much unary stuff at the moment maybe you could streamline that a little bit uh I already mentioned the idea of a universal set of annual Battle Tactics and then yeah we have Battle Tactics that are associated with battle plans they really need to do a six-month release of six more battle plans whether that's free or a digital purchase however they do it so that we end up with 18 battle plans for match play over the course of a year right 12 initially and six at the halfway mark I think that would be the event expansion in December or something exactly yeah the tournament yeah the tournament 100% so and they could do uh you know narrative events or narrative scenarios narrative missions as part of that as well right teams uh Tri treachery Etc so uh yeah just few things like I think it's in a pretty good place I'd be curious Tom to hear you I'm trying to think back on like what have been some of your critiques I I think your whatever you call like your one of your main ones just you felt that the ghbs have been too heavy-handed in how they've changed the environment how they changed the ecosystem it's like okay we're doing this wild swing for six months right and then we're doing another wild swing for the next six months something like that yeah um that they are the design the design is too heavy for the rest of the um like what I would what I would ultimately say is this I think the GHB needs to be super vanilla uh for the summer as we adapt to the new addition rules um and so the Je the GHB needs to be a super light touch a a pitch down the middle for scenarios um and uh and to let the system breathe you know especially if they're doing any wide sweeping changes before they begin to before they begin to do some like heavy design any glimpse of heavy design hopefully we never go back to what it's been the last you know year or so so so really moving away from this seasonal model where yeah this season is cavalry this season it's troops like completely move away from that yeah that makes a lot of sense to me as well my that would be my hope yeah I cannot back that hard enough like Tom you and I on this one are completely aligned I mean especially at the addition change first of all I've hated the heavy-handedness of all of these ghps where it's like entire swats of units are like garbage amazing average amazing again it's just like ah stop just I want to play an army okay yeah yeah um and like in my mind number one is focus on the battle plans right like for the single player side of the thing by the way Tyler again completely back in you totally agree with you completely have TNT in there have doubles stuff like that in there and team stuff somebody said in the comments the recent white dwarf uh recent white dwarfs have had like multi player scenarios in them or something first of all I didn't know that I love multiplayer scenarios oh cool uh and that's amazing it must be really sad to write for white dwarf knowing that no one reads what you write like boy if you're just like like you're just it's it's like the the psychology experiment throwing words words out into the nothingness yeah exactly it's like the psychology experiment where they have people copy down stuff and then then the researcher just takes the piece of paper you write folds it up and throws it in the trash but they'll pay you to keep writing it and people just won't do that very long right because it's incredibly psychologically defeating to watch someone just go like thanks trash thanks trash right that that's kind of what I think it is at this point to write for white dwarf um so the but but like for the the the for the focus one-on-one player part of it man do they need to focusing on just generating 12 good battle plans yeah right like just give us 12 good interest battle you know the the battle plans that you get on the like if you wanted to do like a summer GHB would be 12 good battle plans and then in the battle scroll update or whatever like halfway through the year revisiting like six old battle plans from a prior GHB updated with with a new twist or whatever right like that seems to be the right the right approach and so then you like you're regularly recycling old but then you know like that are tried and true right but with a different twist or a different angle and that could actually be achieved very easily if you went and you added secondary objectives and so the core mechanics of the battle plan stay the same but the secondaries all change when they get reintroduced sure yep absolutely and yes got we got some people we've got some people standing up to defend white dwarf like I understand I'm being hyperbolic of course I I know some people do still read it um but boy it just has the readership on that dropped off like some people still buy DVDs too but um you know the sales aren't what they once were that's all I'm saying um I I bought a new vehicle yesterday uhhuh because your old got smashed because you were in a bad accident but you were okay thankfully yeah yeah yeah I wasn't going to mention that but yes so I bought a new vehicle yesterday and thanks I appreciate that and I'm okay I was very I was very worried for you when you sent me that text and I was glad to hear you and everybody in the family was okay it's very scary thing it is um but it it's a new newish vehicle and it had a DVD player in it and I was like what is this like who added that on like when they originally built this vehicle that they're like you know what I want I want technology from 30 years ago yeah yeah I get you I get you um all right so it's wild yeah sure um I mean so that's number one to me is the is the battle Plan Focus number two to me is I I I like yeah we if we're not taking the big swings let's say we're not like radically Reinventing The Meta with every GHB which I don't think we should be by the way okay what do we actually do with it then like what is the season of events is it just the battle plans do we add any rules at all well it used to have sections for open and narrative play yeah sure and I don't think we NE those those have other methods getting out there maybe but like what if like what if we had something that lean back into something like variant of the play right like multiplayer what if what if it is something like this narrative is whether it be like some variant of like regiment pronoun or you know something like that some element of multiplayer play and some uh and then match play specific yeah yeah I'm I'm with that I'm saying what's going in the match play section that's my question because we all agree it should be lighter but then what is it doing like I'm asking us to put meat on this bone so yeah I I might have a difference I probably have a difference Tom like as far as being lighter yeah would would like that but I personally I still enjoy the all right here is your um special spells for this season right here is a special command ability like I don't mind that I I think that can be done in a way that's interesting and and that will charact be characterized as lighter so yeah I fully agree with that I fully agree with that yeah yeah like I don't have a problem with that at all we just don't need more hor Frost or blizzards sure magic dice that's what yeah yeah an extra magic Dice and whatever whatever whatever I I played a game last weekend by the way yeah I played a game this last weekend and the first was it was turn three or sorry round three before we got not turn round three before we got a primal magic dice because just nobody had the Battalion and so it was just like roll fail roll fail roll fail roll fail roll fail roll fail roll fail roll fail it felt statistically not that unlikely right it's certainly possible it's just flipping a coin and having it end up heads four times in a row or whatever or something eight times in a row and uh I was was like oh my God this is the best game of war I've played in Forever that's funny sorry go ahead keep going yeah so uh we I don't know what that looks like exactly but yeah something that's that's a letter version of this I'm think like the yes I was thinking back to the original 2021 when I think that all this got started which was you know okay we're setting in G we've got all these battle plants that are named for the setting of G and but then we had some of these things I remember were just that was that 2021 I'm looking yeah it Third Edition yeah yeah yeah and was that like what did we get exactly with that did we get the crazy we got monster we got monster hunter mon the season of monsters right out of the gate that was the that was the initial thing that's what that was yeah yeah okay yeah so because it went like Monsters bounty hunters galatian Champions magic crap because we should have only had three but we had four I think that's right right yep y I might be missing one in there but that sounds right to no no you you have it that's what it is y I think that's kind of I mean I always on net you can't tell me that hasn't been negative no it's been bad no I'm saying I'm I'm this is Tyler think about what I just said on net when I sum those up monster season right bad Bounty Hunter season bad galatian champion average and like and like at best I'll give Primal magic and average so like this toally this completely Nets out negative yeah I it's like okay what's the what's the goal here like this if you're talking about for tournament it just runs into the debate we've always had right like who are your audiences here if you're talking about tournament tournament Players who go quite a few tournaments or you know three let's say three tournaments in a year they may not mind this level of change right annual that's that's an entire year okay I can but for those who I I a lot of friends we've talked about before you know they're slow painters it takes them by the time they get an army painted it's already a new season right yeah exactly and so so it does seem like there's this level of list changing um that is or yeah you're having to restructure a list to account for the ground shifting from under you too rapidly that been going on like that seems to be at the heart of a lot of this right and that need to slow down yes so like how do you how do you slow that down while still having some variety some some seasoning literally maybe you know setting the season like I think we're going to go to the realm of Shadow okay so we're going to get a GHB that's going to send the realm of Shadow so how yeah how do we do that in a way that is sufficiently generic Universal but it doesn't like wildly impact list sure I'll give well I'll give you a couple options yeah yeah would you like my couple options sure okay here's option number one option number one is you put in three simplified lightweight rules that are representative of the thing I will give you some examples let's assume we're going to the realm of Shadow I don't know that that's the case but let's just say we do okay in the Matched play section it says here are three optional rules you can utilize as a to or in your home games to represent play in the realm of Shadows okay optional rule number one is like diminished sight okay any ranged attack that targets a Target more than 18 inches away has negative one to hit okay and he miss a weapon attack yeah y optional rule number two uh cloying Shadows okay here is a new heroic action the hero can disappear into the Shadows and teleport so it's a heroic action teleport that everybody can access y uh optional rule number three is uh ambush from Darkness uh you can choose one unit or two units or something like that D3 units I don't care whatever you get it at the start of the game and after they are set them up after they are set up remove them from the battlefield um they may enter as an ambush unit but they must enter from a board Edge be set up within in the board Edge more than 9 in away from all enemies okay so there's three simple rules that all feel like shadowy rules right they are all three listed as optional but the to but they're but they're simple enough that if if a to goes we're going to turn all these on right okay then they can then they're they're playing completely in the realm of Shadow and they can use that and and that's still going to have an effect because it gives people new options it has some amount of weight right it's not crushing but it's but it's there like it's doing something right it doesn't wildly change entire sweeping units of what's good or bad because it's kind of broadly applicable pull any unit off teleport any hero right penalize extreme ranged weapons which aren't aren't that multitudinous anyways right like that's to say over 18 in whereas to's could just as easily go we're not using any of those we're just using the battle plans go nuts or you in your home game could go like because they've all been listed as three optional rules for your games you can just turn them all off just turn the light switch off and play the battle PL that's a light touch and it puts the power back in the hands of the player while giving them structure and both a permission structure yeah both literal and figurative to then engage with the season in the way they're comfortable with yep yeah it's interesting I can hear the voices of some TOS in my head poti including myself uh where there's a there's desire out there for Universal system of that is when I go to lvo when I go to nashon right I'm playing I'm playing the same game and I know you're not necessarily a fan of that that's not in fact not that I'm not a fan that I hate that like I hate hell well there will be some Sub sub communities right within our that will reject that outright um and like what I mean by that is uh you know like folks like you're your kind of your BCP like hyper competitive they want uniformity um and you're right Tyler like that like they're going to reject that that like peace meal system outright that's fine they have their uniformity because their uniformity would be the at big events get together and say we're just going to use all these we're going to use the season and all the big tournaments probably just use all of the rules that's just as uniform but the second we start catering everything in the game to an elite slice of tournament organizers and the big tournaments that they run the game gets materially worse for everybody that is just a fact okay yeah because those people a very small minority of the overall player base have a completely different set of needs I'm not saying those needs shouldn't be served because they should they are an important player base a high energy very important player base and the TOs are heroes okay but they should not be the core which around which the game is designed they should be the option that the game can tilt into and they're just going to have to put up with the fact that they're the extreme minority right the game will still cater to them but the game isn't built around them it does well I mean while we're talking about it I do wonder if you guys have an opinion this like How likely is it that fourth edition is going to go further down this road of uniformity within the broader tournament environment let's say that's a good question a lot of I I suspect it is going to increase with fourth edition for a number of reasons I mean like I think there's already some of this being impacted by the golden ticket the world championship ships uh there's that that's that's a longer I mean that's a sh itself that conversation but uh yeah anyway I I would personally bet that it's likely going to increase it for better worse yeah I don't discre you the question is how heavy does that uniformity that's the question I'm just laughing because i' I've heard uh guys from people Vault Wars is becoming more recognized this year and like which is cool and I'll I'll hear things and the way people talk about it just makes me laugh it's like w Wars is that crazy tournament that does weird things like Highlander I'm like okay that's crazy that's that's that's not what passes for crazy and weird really yeah that's nothing that's nothing anyway yeah yeah that's that's like an extra award that's nothing you're you're a step away from nothing there right and it don't mean any offense to you like because of yeah no exactly yeah it's not yeah well I would say that it's a like it's it's a great soft incentive for people to take non-traditional right but yeah that's not hard incentives right like hard incentives are prohibiting certain War Scrolls or doing things like that yes or I would even I would even say things like uh nashc On's two list format is a hard inent into the baked into the the structure of the event itself all right so we've talked the GHB to death let's keep going here okay um what else is there anything else on any other books I think we'll get the fifth Dawn brers I think that'll be the lead into fourth I don't think we'll get any other narrative books in the year there you go yeah okay the only exception to that sorry go Tyler I'm gonna guess corn and you were yawning some I'm going to jump in and interrupt you uh corn and I I think it what we're going to see Korn we may get a new corus coal model uh with him ascending which I think would be amazing and then hopefully a valkia uh what's the ugly ass model that we have right now like Silo something oh skila yeah Sil I yes yeah get an up horrific model get an update to him get an update to valkia update I think been that model sorry just for sure and yeah that that's and then you'll get the dark oath Riders the update marer kits I we'll see if dark o savengers are going to replace the foot Marauders or do we actually get a an updated you know generic yeah it' be great to just again bend them bend the existing Marauders off and just call dark o Savages like those are Marauders now there we go uh fingers because they're like a million times better Marauders my God right maybe an actual fullon like if we get enough of this dark o stuff uh with this fifth on Bringers a fullon iron Jaws Style supplement I'd love to see that like a dark oath supplement for the slaves of Darkness B time I think that'd be really cool be a great Expedia Army yeah sure just saying anyway yeah just a just a few thoughts on the on what we see all right um my my push back Vince is this if we go your new route of four core ravening hordes yep um and lean into these wahapedia these expanded then um I think though that everything will be ancar from that point on um and what I mean by that is that we move into like yes okay let's say we get four core Grand Alliance books that Define the the core faction from that point on I think we will move into one-ear Seasons with all lore books like I say lore books what I mean by that is this like each year we would get a story get trotted out over four to six books uhhuh um and each of those are your expand opedia with your regim your armies around around or whatever launched with each book man that sounds amazing let's do that that sounds so much better than what we're doing right now like that sounds a million times better than the current model and then you would get three narrative arcs per season I'm sorry were you saying this was a push back on my position or or you trying to reinforce the quality of my argument cuz if you're steelmanning me you're doing a great job no you just simply said there will be no an and my push back is is I think that if we have your four core in the new world then everything is ancillary from that point like I think that we would get we would get these we would get these narrative arcs each year for each game or like for each with you generalist handbook yes yes yes yes yes yes man that'd be amazing okay now I'm back on the page with you and boy you have described I want to go to there okay how are we still doing this dumb model of of book releases from 1997 how have we not updated this but what I'll say is this if you do that model then some of these expand opedia would have like whenever a new Army like hypothetically when malarian you know Umbreon sure or whatever like they would end up functionally being battle to berth in one of the expand oped as the whole new Army drops yeah yeah and then they'll get only do yeah whenever the next Edition launches the each new four books they just fold themselves into the main book right and then what happens when you have like line renewal like cities of Sigmar do basically one of the expand edias end up basically being the updated battle toome for that thing like so it ends up sitting in this weird space I'm with you if they if they move to a different Mall yep I gotta all right new models and model ranges okay let's close it out this is the last main one I have and we have just another catch all uh okay new models and model ranges well we've already talked about everything at the beginning of the show that they spoiled or that they that set it's little silhouettes of so callus toll potentially night hunt and um and lumineth war cry box uh new as we said potential Marauder Horsemen it seems to be odds on what all those Silhouettes are right um and if that's if we're not getting any and then you know book five the question is is that part of what the chaos people are from in which case that could open up hope for some additional chaos stuff it does seem like we're leading to a book five with a showdown with chaos and some way because we've got corus call messing around we've got all this stuff happening in the background right so it does feel like we're kind of sneaking around that having those corn items in there so are we going to say this is the year we get a new to match the new stormcast do we get a new corus call this year as well like does he does he technically come first I don't think he ascends to be a demon Prince by the way I don't know that that's his goal I don't know that his goal is so lowly I think he could have been a demon Prince like 10 times over by now like he in the in the narrative he's really going for something like unique uh like he basically was like I'm going to kill this continent this living continent as an offer to Corn right um like he's trying to effectively chop down yasil as like an offering to Corn like that's what he's on about right um interesting and so you know like that's big sure I I think if I was going to do a new corus Cole I would want to see him Ascend to sort of uh more like super mortal Lord basically like like basically the same I think the same path archon's done but just for K right I don't know that he's he's trying to become a demon Prince or something or a blood thirster or lose his individuality I'm not sure that's his goal interesting I think he becomes a much big bigger scarier mortal Lord with like an awesome Mount right yeah that could be a cool opportunity like a big dog yeah you joke yeah man you joke but no I would love it if he was riding a big dog like put him on a big threaded like take carac yeah blow carac up right like big pig size yeah and put a new corus call on top of it uh yeah okay Tom I want that that that would work for my dog Army yep so maybe we' huh I was gonna make a car joke uh' been see feel like we've been seeing some nurgle images in the Advent calendar like they've got a couple of old as models epidemius Festus maybe they make an appearance in this fifth book I was kind of thinking about that oh sure yeah yeah like we kind of get a refresh of the various insundry Chaos heroes that that what you mean yeah yeah yeah and yes as a couple people have pointed out yeah I don't know how you pronounce his name but yeah AR Bal The Undefeated he was a guy back in warmer fantasy in the old world who rode like a hellhound dog he was on a big dog but it was like a big dog for the time so it was actually like a joke it would have been smaller than than this model cuz just a tiny little thing uh yeah okay I could see that uh if we get new scaven and new stormcast you mentioned the calling and the Thunder striking of stormcast yeah um is that is that like the extent or like what else would Weber yeah does anybody want to or call it does anybody want to call a shot on a war cry thing besides the potential lumineth night haunt thing yeah I think that after um after uh I'm going to go big here um and suggest that the war cry box that we see isn't set in G okay is not no and that rather the Lumin um I mean this this may be too big of a swing but it would be the lumineth verse kn would actually be set in um in U okay being like light light verse Shadows right like light verse ghost in the darkness um as the introduction to the new a u setting because I think that that's where we're headed I think with the new edition we're going to move to U is the primary realm and all the new war cry stuff will map to that just like it did with uh G yeah okay because we talked like a couple years ago guys where it's right we at least again the the historical pattern had been underworlds unveils the new realm first yeah and then the addition launches and then war cry adapts that new realm yep and so like that's why I was saying that it may be too early for war cry to jump to U but it would make sense to me for it to be um like light brers you know or some form of yeah of elves verse the Shadows of the of death right like the darkness the ghost to dwell in darkness yeah well that sets up your e rack call too really easy right right right that's exactly right yeah yeah I mean that would be super cool I'm I'm down for that and you know this the scaven have always been big in ugu um they're big there they're big in Japan and uh you know so like I think that's fine I think it open the door it would open the door to potentially a small uh additional lumineth expansion but it could also do open the door to like a nighthaunt expansion it could open a lot of things up right where you get the more like stealth focused versions of people who are messing around in U um I don't think you'll see mearan or anything like his om branth in 2024 um but as I've said he's your he's your spring 2025 armor that first year in that first year normally as you're ending that first year going into the next big summer you always get an army drop in that April May time frame and my money is if we're in U we'll get malaran yep and then the following year we're gonna get Tyrion is Tyrion will then respond once malaran has shown his sa as as a lumineth expansion as an as lumic and like whatever the narrative Arc is at the end of 4.0 that is that is exact what's going to happen y yeah I mean the that looked like a river Temple or what I would gather would be a river Temple model the one that was previewed today and it almost looked like some kind of water dragon uh icon that I felt like at least that's where my brain was going to in that in that photo yeah which you know which would would which would lean into the Eastern influences that we've seen right yeah like that's that's a very common like that is an association with water yep 100% speaking of idth is overdue for an expansion again I 2024 would be my guess at some point adk uh getting expanded love to see a little more like you know lovecraftian in and idth uh which could potentially tie in I mean might be stretching at this point really hammering he I think they're a great candidate for a war cry expansion for yeah interesting I I want to see I want to see seah horse riders but we're not going to go that direction we will likely go the like squid DW like again dweller and darkness direction for for idth like if I'm guessing they will go to more like the the of the deep which is what we need with I think really with this Army yeah like that's un under tapped right now yeah man yeah yes and especially if we're going to that would make sense as well yep yep like that yeah I I agree can can I ask a question go for it can I make a big swing yeah that's what we want let's take some big swings do you all think we'll still see endless spells moving forward oh will they get jettison out yeah uh it's a great question uh hopium they would be jettisoned I would I I would love to see them rocketed out of the game and never return yes I know you feel that way the reason why is that it's actually like if you go scroll the website most of them are out of stock they don't sure cannot keep them yeah they cannot keep them in stock at all but they actually they are trying to sell them it's just they don't have them in stock they're they're still I mean I don't know I don't know but like but like can you even get the original like line portance or anything like that I didn't think mine sorcerer is even available anymore let me look uh mine sorcery uh online only yeah you can still buy it right but online only that does not V well right like um yeah I don't know like it just makes me wonder um the trajectory of where we're going right um uh like can you what about the other ones like the the the second the second Reason by the way the real reason I think you they would jettison him you want my real business answer not just because like what Vince wants or stuff like that yeah I think they're bad for the game that's number one but that I don't think they would I don't think that's gon to stop them either way I think the actual problem is they're produced in China they're not made at the factory in the UK and that supply chain has gotten very fragile over the past two years three years and so like if they were going to make a decision to like if they were going to make a business decision to shore up Supply chains right and and reduce risk Jets thing endless spells would be one way they could do that uh what was the other the other release of not but uh oh forbidden forbidden power yeah yeah forbidden power that was one which by the way as an side how hilar can't like even in Forbidden power yes there are those four endless spells but there used to be a Terrain piece in there that is just disappeared Into The Ether sure sure yeah I was trying to think guys when was the last time we got an endless spell release uh tied to a faction it's been quite some time if if I recall uh like they have not been releasing these things maybe it was Daughters of cane but that was no I mean if it was daughter of Kane it was that's been a long time it was some time ago yeah I'm looking through battle temps and I'm not seeing anything with inless spells inless spell releases like AR no the old in the first edition Oar book uh yeah 2023 I'm not seeing anything that had inless spells which is might be right Tom yeah one can hope I mean yeah like I just it doesn't feel like a thing that needs to be there by the way I wouldn't even care if they kept the Army on the Spells and just jettison to the generics M and it would just be kind of became like like that that that's fine that wouldn't solve the the supply problem I'm talking about uh Kyle Nelson said why are those produced in China and how does vins know that I know that because that's what I do I'm here because I know things um but secondly uh the why are they produced there because they're cheaper lower quality models that they don't care about the casting on as much because endless spells have a much lower casting quality requirement than uh their actual models and so same was true for most of the terrain that gets produced that is to say they don't have as fine a detail requirements or things like that so they can just be kind of more easily mass-produced in the factories that that China can pump those things out with whereas with their Mainline models the the actual casting and production requirements are like really really high like it's actually requires extremely expensive machines to manufacture the kinds of models that GW does most most people in the world just do not have machines capable of either doing the initial cast of them nor of producing the actual models it actually takes very expensive machines on both sides um and very very highly paid people to to do all of that work so whereas the terrain and and endless spells are like such simpler goofball models that it's like like look at the look at the burning head that's you know I mean come on now it's just not hard to make something like that it's Playdoh yeah I highly doubt they're gonna get rid of them personally I like them uh they yeah I like what they add to the game it's taken them forever it's taken them way too long to get them to a reasonable place we I think we finally have gotten there not all of them are great none of them are particularly out of bounds uh you know like G is fine the ones that you see are generally fine uh pendulum is fine for the you know anyway I like what they do for list building what they do for gameplay but it it took forever to get them to the point that they're in now where they're at least in a decent place yeah I just wonder like it just it just dawned on me like as I've looked at like adding new armies like when I go to buy an army I like I want to buy the ancel frew I want to buy the the endless spells and one of the things that I found is that like just locating endless spell kits is really difficult like it's like it's legitimately difficult and so it just raises questions when I think about like new players wanting to join the game yeah so when I think about the trajectory of where we're going like it just makes me wonder like are these things going the way of the the dodo yeah it's good it's a good question absolutely um uh Hey Chang said GW is that highend I'm kind of surprised so are GW models reasonably priced that I have no answer to GW models are certainly um you know costly um but there's a lot more factored into that price than the weight of the plastic right like there there's a lot going in I will tell you that uh that casting a model like they do okay uh like getting a new kit like they're going to make a new space brain kit is probably easily a like $50,000 at the low end $100,000 $125,000 at the highend yeah I heard I've heard 75 to to 100ish yeah yeah it depends on the size of the kit and what's going on and how much complexity there is and what size sprew does it use right like is it using a tank sprew which is like the big one or is it using the half sprew right those all have different names or the quarter sprw okay each one of those has different cost bases to it but the the level of like the machine used to actually cast that thing out is is very very those those things are crazy expensive um but then you also have to the entire process like I'm talking about from from what you're paying the artist to concept it out to when you the first models roll off so anyways it's you know it's an expensive process and so they they you know they cost out from there are they reasonably priced I mean I don't know man that's that's that's all I is anything that under the current model of the world reasonably priced given their desire to deliver shareholder value that I can't justify but um I say ask a question it is an expensive process yeah go ahead when what was the last uh Army terrain piece that was introduced into the game it was oh the last Army terrain boy oh boy it's a long time ago no that's not no it's like five minutes ago uh sorry that's a total lie five minutes ago uh the the mopit the mopit the mopit as a variant yeah of the original uh yeah I forgot about that before that it had been quite a while but yes the mopit yeah but again that's more of a variant than it is an actual like new terrain Edition sure yeah it had been some time beyond that yeah I'm not sure technically we did get we did get the uh also in warry your alluding to war also in war cry we got the variant saraon the realm shaper the other realm shaper yeah I suppose but that didn't actually have different rules the M pit was like a legitimately different model like because it actually had completely different rules yep yep but again like when you're looking at actual new models right it's a super fascinating um like they just simply in the last three years they have haven't really added almost any regarding yeah yeah agreed which I mean part of that might be just they're happy with the the the armies that have terrain versus the armies that don't so there's no need to add more right yep and part of that could be yeah it's a thing they don't want to invest they don't want to throw more money in that like they're already they don't want to have to have rely on China to produce any more stuff since again that's where the the Army terrain comes from China right y so yeah one General thought or question I had is to what degree are we going to see a greater amount of narrative or thematic coherence in their releases especially in 2025 you know four fourth edition when you get into the guts of new releases expansions Etc I feel like there's been very little thematic or narrative coherence with third edition's releases uh you know like we've got cities of sigar at the tail end of it even though the narrative was supposed to be about it as da bringer crus that of Sigmar right would have come out at the near the start of it uh yeah so like I mean my answer is I think they will absolutely uh do such a thing like I think their goal is and has always been to better align the books to the larger narrative moves to everything and have that kind of progression and I think you see that happening now that they're sort of back on plan with Dawn Bringer's book four and FEC and the alignment there and that kind of stuff so in my mind that's where they want to be they know that if they like tell a story and draw people in and like they've seen the power of lore no one should know no one knows better than than GW that lore can actually like move the needle on sales right I mean 40K is like that r large yeah so I think that's certainly in their minds that they want to align and drive toward that unified image these sort of Unified releas I just think it's really hard to do and then then the pandemic happened and threw them way off and like again somehow we're going to get n years into this game before we actually have the real game which is crazy to say all right right but that's almost true I mean we should probably mention the two obvious ones that could use a refresh seemingly which would be of base of chaos and at least in my mind ogres u stand out this one I mean there's yeah some real old kits there any thoughts guys on we might see those I think ogres they'll just handle through continued like war cry and inciler game releases because they can most of what they need isn't huge like the Beast Riders are fine the main ogres are probably fine for a while still they have yeah like Glutton and stuff um but the butcher is terrible the slaughter Master is terrible those two models are I mean really really really bad yeah the yetis yeah exactly uh but but all that stuff could easily like that's a that's a new Hero at a book release that's a war cry that's an underworld's model right like you get a the underworld's war band oh it's three yetis and a and a hunter it's like oh well okay solved a bunch of problems there didn't we or whatever you know right um so like you could imagine that kind of thing right yeah so and base of chaos I think we're very Beast I think they have to get a complete line refresh I think it has to be and that's why I don't see it happening in 24 does it need to be done yes will it happen in fourth in 4.0 I'd give that a 5050 at best could they kill one no I don't think so no I would rate that as like a zero percent chance yeah no we've we've seen some model new models yeah Beast are such an such a part of this game um they have been for a long time they like have a pretty significant player base of people who like them and engage with them and importantly they have a lot of fans at GW there are a lot of beast beastmen beast of chaos players orever you want to say at GW so in general whenever a bunch of people in the headquarters actually play the army it doesn't go away like sorry but that's what it is right I mean look you know if you like Beast of chaos the brettonian of AOS yeah like they're just GNA hang out man um and and yeah I mean there's also exactly there's there's as as uh beefy crunch just pointed out um they'll they'll potentially get updated through old world as well because they actually will be one of the ones that probably remains pretty stable in both so they actually are a full crossover and and ogres are the same as well like they could update overs in uh in Old World yeah do you guys think it's a lock that we're going to see that we're going to see old world updates that then translate to AOS that Port AOS sure I mean Define what you mean there well so that is a box of uh models from packaged with the old world packaging for for the old world comes out right and it has a war scroll or War scroll for AOS no I do not think you'll see that like and that's that's so wild to think that they wouldn't capitalize on that obvious Synergy but no I don't think they want to muddy the waters or mix their games plus it's two rival Studios these are effectively competitive operations within the same company now they're both competing for dollars they're not going to make models for the other games now do I think that they'll make new Gore for or something thing okay or whatever I'm just I'm just saying that as as an example right for the old world and then people who play AOS where there is also a unit called Gore right right will go by that kit to use those things yes yes that will happen yeah right um yeah just like you will see people uh put a zombie dragon on the table that looks like the tomb King's mummy Dragon sure sure because the zombie dragon kit is not available right now from that's a good call talk about a kit that needs updated at least in my opinion that that zombie dragon terrorized yeah but I mean but that's the point like it's like it goes back to what I had said like you can't buy these things from GW right now sure what what are you going to do like how are you going to yeah we will that I I'd be shocked if we see chaos D I mean like are we going to see chaos dwarves finally at some point in fourth edition no not I do I think I think it'll be like the TA end if we do I think think purei I don't think that the horn the horns of hashit not popular like here's the reality I understand that I understand that uh like you're just not I I don't think that see it short of something like a armies of renowned regimen situation right like you may you may see that you may see a box come out right that is a bunch of units all together that um that serve as a unit that can be imported into an AR but here's the deal um that just does not like we have I'll say it this way we have reached a like a stasis point in AOS with as many armies as we have they got to be really careful about putting out new armies they can't put out four armies in an addition or something like that it's crazy right right you're lucky to see one new full new Army per Edition and even with that you're going to begin to see some armies cycled out as new ones are brought in yep like they they they they are going to need to very carefully control adding new new armies into the ecosystem right and so when I say things like do you think Beast of chaos could like out what I'm also asking there is is with them adding malaran umth or whatever like they will need to look at at cycling things out or cutting from their Lin I think you can you you can put one or two more in and not break the system and so like just adding umth probably fine expanding lrl through Tyrion that's because that's still just lrl is a bigger Army now is fine right yep but if you get up to like when when you cross the threshold of like if you're getting up toward 30 there's going to be a problem y I went looked Vin I was curious what 40K is rcking so at least based on the website uh armies of the Imperium it's you know zenos armies armies chaos that's all of that's 20 and then you've got the Space Marines category right which however the hell you want to think about that um but yeah no that yeah that seems about right 30 yeah that starts to get scary I could see us get an number F I could see us get um an expansion to lrl as like another subaction maybe I could see us with another destruction faction because they're still so light compared to the other Grand alliances sure yeah right um but beyond that like I think we're about done and until you begin trimming or collapsing other uh other uh factions yeah some people said they think umth or or malarian forces would just be part of Doc and I know they could do they like they could do a combin where where that happens in general they've made it so like the gods have their own armies you don't generally have a singular book that has two different gods in it because this is epic fantasy and it's very top down and so like malaran is his own god with his own troops and so he'd have his own book all the different Orcs are all still they're different Orcs but they're all still under the same gork and mor right yep and I mean I'm just that's traditionally been the way that they think about the game and so like now I I realize I said that while I at the same time I just said Tyrion and Tas having a unified book but my impression of them is it it is the exception because they're so tightly bound together they are TS yes the twins so you get twins yes where whereas at the same time I mean I understand malaran and uh morathi yes yes or mother son mother son yeah I understand that they're also related um so they could I mean I I didn't thought about I thought about them as do different things but yeah they they could do one large army the problem is it would have to change they wouldn't all be the daughters of Cain they would be something else right right they would be like the shadowkin or something like that yeah yeah like whatever they'd have they'd have to get a new name because like malarian troops we have no reason to believe the uh uh that malarian troops have any care about Cain that's not their bag that's not what their world is they worship him he's a full-fledged God right he was from the beginning um but yeah mother son and more yeah you ain't wrong sness okay uh anyways so uh look there we go we we'll see I guess all right let's uh let's close this out any other final hopes and dreams to end this out for the year anything else for 2024 you want to see outside of just product ranges or whatever anything else you want to see we got a we got a quick quick go around here yeah so I I would not be shocked if they update or if they try to do a revamp of path to Glory uh a revamped updated narrative system okay for fourth edition launch uh where they release a standalone book with that new narrative system whatever it's called I suspect it may not be called pth The Glory going forward I don't know just kind of I it still feel like there's some real work like the Crusade equivalent from 40K you mean oh yeah yeah they did do that with yeah Crusades exactly yeah they had a Crusades yes more or less that y uh that that would be one thing uh somebody at marbles when will fire Slayers be squatted that just rude I was actually so that was going to be one of somebody just uh took one of that was potentially going to be one of my um my big swings yeah uh was if this is going to truly be a re a ravening ravening hordes is when you when you redraw faction lines and when you write factions out like that's like that's when you do that thing um is when you're doing a big sweeping change like and if that's the case case uh the two that that looked uh uh most tenuous to me would be fire Slayers and Beast of K yeah like I hate to say that like fire Slayers at this point could simply be a regiment of round oh man yeah the I mean that I'm I'm still full on hopium after seeing that Vulcan whatever the the Box the war cry box like I hope that they're sitting on a bunch of new fire models and at some point in 2025 we're going to get a you know fire slayer's done right yeah I mean look as the known fire Slayer hater on this show okay I would put that at a0 per chance they're not going to kill their their new AOS faction could it be combined in one big dwarf book yeah maybe like I don't know that's always there's always a chance you never know how they're going to think about that design right but are they getting rid of fire Slayers no man I don't not for a minute do I think that's going to happen I really don't and so like I just I signus you knew what you were getting into when you made a 2,000 Point Swift talk agent Army if you didn't know you were you were riding the lightning on that one come on buddy that's a different story okay you were like I'm going to play Army mailen full of these hyp specific units from the old world you knew what was happening there uh and arrested at wal house saying like no soup like dwarf soup yeah it's a good point but yeah I mean I just I don't think for a minute that uh that we're going to see like fir Slayers go that's that's crazy talk well I would like I what I would say is this it would not surprise me if they go the route of savage Orcs And what I mean by that is that we simply like they don't get you know squatted they don't get fridged but they they just don't get touched like I could see that happening for the because they're just such a small representation sure they get updated in a book they have a line item but they as a line as an IP are dead I don't know man that's a that's that's a probably not from me but we'll see what other hopes and dreams do you have Tom what do you got I'm still waiting for my new uh my new sub faction fire eaters yeah sure I mean I'll tell you right now we already know what my hopes and dreams are we've talked about like five times in the show it's just please give me the new scaven Range I want just please can I have it now all right it's all I want uh we haven't said a whole lot about what like what more what do you think you're going to get so do you think it's going to be e like Tom son I think going to be most line refresh with a lot of calling okay yeah like that is to say heavy e well the the should be heavy e but you'll get a launch at the same time like correct like so it will be like what they did with necrons and Ninth is what I'm saying okay so you'll cut a bunch of stuff and call it out of the line like a bunch of things will be called okay yeah weapon what's that weon teams potentially I mean at the minimum some of them are going away right like the um what's his name the the Doom grinder or whatever the warp grinder that guy's gone you know the little little I me little bicycle Rider I love that guy SP I love the bicycle Rider spiky guy too but like whatever you you get it pick you know there's going to be like 10 to 12 kits that are retired just gone from the line okay you'll get mostly refreshed outside of the new plat like the Vermin Lords will stay and be what they are the storm fiends will stay and be what they are and stuff like that potentially they'd keep the Bell it would fit like I think when they redid the the necrons like the Scythe the big big Quant like the flying Quant stay right okay but they did make a new pyramid I think yeah um a new monolith or whatever yeah um so I think it could be the same thing there where it's like potentially the Bell stays it's not like a horrible plastic kit it's not the Bell the bell and and or sensor yeah exactly yeah because it's like a double kit and you know could you redesign it and make it awesome yeah I mean you could do amazing things with it do you have to redesign it no it's it's still plastic it's still serviceable right but like Clan rat redesign storm verman redesign plag monk redesign plague sensor bear redesign all the mainline stuff rat ogre redesign most of the heroes that are still riding on Ancient plastic so like or Andor metals or fine casts like plague priests Master molders because they're going to keep this the the we have a new death Master already so that guy's good to go he's locked in right um because we got that update already but basically all of that stuff and so on and so forth new you know like and and by the way either like new Jazelle or better kill jaal fine make better new interesting artillery right like right kill the Doom wheel I love the Doom wheel okay uh but like kill the Doom wheel and give me a new crazier bigger Wilder weapon like it you know what I'm saying like the Doom Wheels retired but now we have like the whizzer you know just like and it's like four wheels all spinning around the whizzer you get it um the grinder yeah like the the point being is that you know give me spiritual sequels um to those previous things that are their that are their new stuff but like all the core units will stay and just get redesigned that's what I would see for the the range refresh okay interesting so yeah there you go an Annihilation whirly gig thank you signis Maximus absolutely the annihilation whirly gig yes uh varac said which scaven theme do we think they'll dig into first I agree it'll be Asen to go in the launch box like you you were exactly I think you're absolutely right Tom because it's like that just is an easy launch filling a filling a launch box with Ninja rats is just like the coolest thing you can do to sell a box right and plus it's a very funny opponent for stormcast right you can picture the trailer them like lightning striking down and fighting some some uh some Clan rats or whatever and then just like out of the Shadows just like little little warp tip throwing stars Little Green throwing stars are coming out of the shadows and just like pinging and you're seeing like lightning blasts go up right that kind of thing yeah easy yeah okay cool good stuff there you go all right well what are your hopes and dreams out there audience hey drop it down in the comments and if you haven't hit like yet please do so uh for this probably show that was much longer than I thought it was going to be but we had a lot to talk about uh that's all right hey everybody this is our last show of 2023 so I just want to say thank you so much for everything you've done in the show this year liking subscribing watching the show those who buy the merch down below support us on patreon buy the books that Uncle Adam and I produce all that kind of stuff do check it out uh we really appreciate it uh everything's down there and uh so check those out hit those things make dings it's fun you'll be cool you will get at least some percentage cooler all your friends will think so and uh certainly will think so um uh but yes thank you very much Tyler Tom thank you both for everything this year absolute pleasure to uh close out 2023 with both of you an honor uh and a blessing and a pleasure as always I got we gotta go I gotta go back and add it up Tom see who had the highest tally of appearances and you you had a strong showing at the tail end of this year you may I've had like nine in the last 10 shows or something ridiculous you may you may have pipped me seven in the last nine got him at the last minute there he brought it home all right got him yep but thank you everybody we really appreciate it and uh as always we'll see you next Wednesday

Channel: Vince Venturella

Views: 58,911

Keywords: Painting, Miniature Painting, Warhammer: Age of Sigmar, Age of Sigmar, Sigmar, Hobby, Games Workshop, Miniature Wargaming, Wargaming, Warhammer: Fantasy Battles, Warhammer, Mordheim, 9th Age, Popular Culture, D&D, Dungeons and Dragons, Dungeons & Dragons, D&D 5e, Sorastro, Miniac, luke aps, darren latham, scale models, diorama, kings of war, frostgrave, kujo, dr. faust, basic, stormcast, space marine, imperial fist, aos, sisters of battle, crafting, wh40k, warhammer hobby, basing, terrain

Id: oR5mCIApEW0

Length: 196min 28sec (11788 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 28 2023