2 Steps Forward 1 Step Back - TOTALLY OBJECTIVE Arks of Omen Balance Hot Takes

foreign [Music] ER podcast episode 48. welcome to your first ever poor Hammer hot takes yeah it's good fun so without any further Ado let's jump into this thing all right before we begin let's warn our audience and explain what hot takes means on today's episode we are going to be discussing the gigantic rules update that occurred this week yeah so these are hot takes we haven't really thought about it too old much we haven't been able to test anything these are not reviews these rules came out as an update 30 hours ago for us we have not dissected them we did not get them early to play with them for three weeks beforehand because we're not cool uh yeah we don't we don't get any of that stuff we're normal plebs yes and a key part of this we are not going to spend an equal amount of time on every faction as we roll through this just like GW didn't we're going to be probably focusing on the factions that our playgroup plays and more importantly ones that we play and we'll have more emotional response to so we may miss something that affects your faction and we may lose some of the nuanced takes that your factions players may have been able to point out alright with all of that out of the way let's dive in sounds good so first off this is like a five part change all at once because this is like the season change and the data slate change so there's a lot of things we have to keep in mind when going through this that we're going to absolutely fail at the biggest one for me is Arc of almonds yeah the Arc of omen Detachment is huge it's really cool too it is I'm gonna say a lot on this episode I have very mixed feelings on a lot of changes I would say about everything in this update is two step forward one step back yeah and I mean that's pretty common for GW changes there's healthy ideas behind the change but potentially problematic things that are as a result good goals wrong path to them yeah so let's start off with the general changes Arc of omen Detachment super fascinating I like it about 90 I dislike some Corner cases that pop up I do like the idea that like generally it's supposed to be easier to build the lists without quite as much troop tax the feel bad it's like I don't want to play that [ __ ] that's not why I'm here and one thing I really like is what you said there of troop tax is what we always think of troops as yeah the competitive changes for the Arc of omen season combined with The Arc of Oakman Detachment is fascinating because it seems like they're trying to make you not want to think of troops as a tax right because they're trying to give you reasons to want your troops there are some secondaries in the competitive rules or tertiaries however you want to think of them for Mission rules where you get more points if troops do it or War Dogs stuff like that so I enjoy that aspect to counteract the fact that you are no longer required to take troops because often you would try to do patrols and battalions to save CP which meant you spent points on troops that you didn't really want in your army nice balance yeah it is interesting like you said that like troops have a reason potentially other than just I have to take these so that I have a valid list I think it's cool and like as an Orc player I'm just like oh man I could do all kinds of stuff [Laughter] doesn't mean it's good and I like the idea of like that's a massive shake-up just from that aspect alone and when we get to Space Marines the sticky troops is going to be another way that improving troops and another big change is affecting everybody is the changes to the Ally rule system I think this is kind of for like soup ideas going on because they've been trying to figure out how to how to make that work without being busted for a while now another big General change was the changes to Ally factions so this is the battle brothers ruling yeah it's the battle brothers rule it's in Ark of Omens the long and short of it is basically anyone in the Imperium can take Imperial Knights anyone in chaos can take chaos nights uh you can take a Detachment of demons matching your Army's keyword if you're one of the chaos Space Marine versions of that God it's got the basic Gene Steeler Cults tyranids slap together it's everything you expect but it's weird the way it's all written out is kind of weird wow okay so we're working off like a leaked page still whether or not you guys get to see a nice clean page right but it's so dumb to me that Tao can't Ally with votan but Space Marines can but Space Marine can Ally with Photon but not Imperial Guard that one's a bit weird the the votan one feels so forced like it's the first bullet point and you know that was decided by management everything about that seems salesy yeah and I think that's my problem with it like I get the idea of like hey in competitive play we've had problems with allies historically currently the top faction before this rebalance is demons or chaos souping demons to get a hold of their one key unit because we made it so easy to suit demons I mean that's been something that they've been trying to deal with of soup list forever basically because like you wanna enable the ability to have fun with those types of interactive lore yeah you want to encourage souping in ways that make sense for your fluffy lists right but you want to discourage souping just to gain an advantage numerically like the mathematically best thing should not be to soup right and it is honestly a difficult thing to solve just because like competitive players are going to look for that Fringe case and they're going to take advantage of it and locking it all down will limit the amount of fun fluffy lists that you can do yeah and they did a pretty good job of keeping a lot of the like what I would call the key soups drukari gets hot Harley Quinn yeah they they kept that they kept the weirdest one to me as they kept Disciples of bellacor which they've been pushing so hard this Edition man they really want that to be a thing sure laughs it frustrates me as a lore guy there is no lore for this bellicor got a remodel and technically always existed in 40K silently as like a playable character but like if you want to push this so hard why have you not made me want this yet well I mean if they keep pushing it you're gonna want it like you can't be a fan of bellacor I can't be a fan of olive I I plan on doing some lore rant video soon because I'm sure that will do well people will love my anger at certain parts of the lore but the basics are all here overall it seems fine I'm sure that there's enough to have fun with it and I'm sure that there's going to be something that they've missed and it's gonna be broken so for the other Universal changes that are getting done right now we've got the data slate has aircraft start off the board everyone can think Tao if you were ever thinking about playing an aircraft in your army and it isn't the most broken thing in existence put it back on the damn shelf dude I'm so angry about this org players you got hit for doing dumb stuff fair but come on man we don't need to keep getting pounded into the dirt on this I want to play some of the coolest [ __ ] airplanes ever try being a necron player we have bad aircraft I was like what good aircraft do you even have all right you still have to take them though if you want to play an aircraft they're already bad now I suffer because Tau and tyranids have good ones it's real awkward they found a way to make the necron combat Patrol worse which is impressive I don't hate the change on bombers having to stay to do their damage that makes sense to me it doesn't make sense to me that much whatever as a balance point I'm just like yeah that's a fine way to add that little bit of balance into it but like they went a bit hard against aircraft on this one not particularly happy with it and of course there is a final Universal change this affects both of us actually if you look at our avatars it's gone we're we're now paper dolls I'm not speak for yourself I have all this dust yeah armor of contempt gone it's an interesting one I mean I knew it was going to happen at some point armor of contempt was a Band-Aid it was and I have all sorts of conspiracy theories I I thought up over the last day about the wise it's very weird to me because it affected more than Space Marines it was a Band-Aid on everything in power armor it affected CSM it affected sisters it affected things that aren't getting Space Marine to the book yeah well and I mean because it affected so many it affected the other ones by what loadouts they would want it was such a vast sweeping rule that everybody was affected by it yeah you had something like 50 percent of players or 60 something like that played AOC armies so even if you didn't play it your list was changed by it yeah I'm not saying it was a good rule from a like healthy rule but it was a good solution to a problem it was a perfect example of what the data site can do right you provided a kind of fluffy buff to a bunch of factions that had balance issues you managed to make it work and then you [ __ ] it up by adding guard to it to act as a Band-Aid rather than just fixing guard properly or releasing their codex a year year ago yeah I was like or just releasing their codecs at some point so so that screwed up armor of contempt and it at least need to be pulled off guard so that's nice and realistically it needed to go eventually like it was a Band-Aid solution there should have been a more individual fix for every faction essentially this is obviously like one where it's gonna be a pretty long wishy-washy opinion but like positives for getting rid of it there are a lot of changes that we're going to talk about as we run through these factions that are remove previous balance changes get closer to what the Codex launched as which is nice there is a part of me that wants to give the benefit of the doubt and say we know from leaks at the beginning of ninth Edition that basically before 9th Edition launched there was a time when they were beta testing every book at once like should always be the case and we didn't have half the armies playing ninth Edition and half playing 8th Edition yeah that would be nice unrealistic kind of but it would be eyes but you could argue that a lot of these unbalanced codices like drukari admek the old Terrors that then fell off the face of the Earth right or to roughly balance for Jakari they never fell off the face of the Earth but that those ones would be balanced against all the factions now that they're all duking it out so there's part of that you could argue is like hey we can pull off armor of contempt everyone's got their codex it is time to play 9th Edition as Games Workshop intended when they wrote these things and then delayed for two years yeah but I don't think that's what happened no I don't but but I accept it would be nice if that's what happened yeah there's things wrong with the armor of contempt change like first and foremost I despise that Space Marines has widened the gulf between the fantasy and the tabletop the fantasy super powerful super soldiers in giant suits of indestructible armor destroying everything in their path they're the rarest thing the the tool that are the last thing you do is to use Space Marines on a solution right the guard failed send a Space Marine we're looking at sending Master Chief in to solve the problem exactly Master Chief is what Space Marines wish they were Space Marines look a lot more like guard when we get into the Space Marine part of this and that's awkward as hell I don't like that part of armor contempt going I'll I'll be honest a lot of other things like we'll get to it in Gray nights but Space Marines are not the only ones that are looking more and more like a non-elite army so uh that wraps up the universal changes now let's spend an asymmetrical amount of time talking about all of the factions of 40K you want to start off with Space Marines so some changes for space brains they removed the change for salamanders so they're back to their old ability because it overlapped with armor of contempt now it's back to what it used to be there was some rebalanced stuff for some secondary things and all that jazz I'm not going to get too much into that because just so everyone is aware Eric and I don't play much with the competitive rule book anymore partly because it was out of stock for its entire existence for the last six months and I got sick of looking it all up on wiopedia partly because Maelstrom is just a better format that was Tempest Tempest Maelstrom whichever one is ninth Edition blame tabletop tactics for doing this to me yeah it's one of those that like we don't really know that much about that and at the same time like secondary changes are so difficult to actually like pinpoint what it's gonna do yeah we're basically just randomly guessing yeah it all depends on the lists that are being built how the lists are able to be built for that what the meta is in comparison against those like it's just secondaries are very hard to actually nail down ahead of time and I mean this one didn't seem huge I don't know they got two major Buffs though the first smaller one is just troops have a rule in the data slate now that causes objectives to be like sticky absec which is a thing and at least it was a thing in like certain Crusade missions I don't remember if it was a thing in the last competitive I think like one of the maps might have had it I think so I I know it was in some of the narrative ones but whatever uh so now if you have troops on an objective and they leave it as a Space Marine it stays yours until an opponent walks on it it's neat it's more space mariney it gets into the hole then since it's a balancing thing you get to poke holes in it lore wise like why the [ __ ] doesn't that work for custodies then like they're better yeah why doesn't it work for CSM they're the same thing yeah or gray Knights well yeah I mean it's fine whatever so the biggest win for Space Marines for me the thing that it's one of the things nice spitball is a way to buff them back when they were having issues was changing combat doctrines I love this because this is so much closer to how the ninth Edition rules for every Army have been for these turn rules it's a lot less Draconian than it was it's you start the game in Devastator Doctrine you may choose at the beginning of turn two and every turn after that if you want to change to Tactical when you're in tactical at the start of turn you can choose a change to assault it's so simplistic it's so correct it is it is this is how this should be now we could argue this now moves the internal balance for sub-factions towards the ones that want to be in Devastator because you can have five turns of Devastator you only get three of assault if you're in a melee based Army and it starts on turn three unless you spend CP to force something in early stuff like that yeah I mean it's just the the upsides of it being a clean rule that you can everybody can understand and play around it's so much better for that reason alone and I don't see it being that huge of a downside that like you can only be an assault for the weight game like I guess turn two it could be problematic turn two is the big one if it was so if this was a 9th Edition Rule and it wasn't like the eighth edition rule that kind of began the ninth Edition rules it was like the beta test version if this was like the custodies one with the katas don't get me started on katahs but if it was like that it would basically be you start with Devastator tactical assault put them in order at the beginning of each churn you start with the first one and you can move to your second choice and then you can move to your third choice and then you're locked yeah but if it was custodies then you'd be able to choose one of them and have both of them at the same time you can already do that in Space Marines with the current ones it's just not being necrons helps that's true yeah and I know they fix necrons but I'll still be salty forever so this all came with Point changes right and most of them were Point decreases yes and Shout out while we're working on this and doing this episode to tabletop tactics the greatest battle report YouTube series thank you for collating this data into a what it was what it is now all in a nice beautiful format thank you for doing the work the company selling us this product didn't do so yeah it's nice to go through here and check things out for what changed one of the patrons brought up the funniest thing to me so with the new Arc of omen Detachment this is the one trick for Space Marines for this episode I hate this assault intercessors dropped because they lost hour of contempt to 17 points barely more than a one Moon tactical Marine was yeah it's pretty cheap with The Arc of almonds attachment you can have up to 12 troops and troops don't suffer rule of three assault intercessors come at 17 points a model you can have a hundred and ten assault intercessors split over 11 of these troops for 1870. [Laughter] we have 130 points left to burn you still have to have to have your HQ oh boy it sure is great that you could have a chaplain you could even have a super chaplain let me introduce you to guard 2.0 [Laughter] to 111 chaps and ass wow I hate it I hate it but that is funny it is interesting that a lot of the special weapons were decreased to free I'm going to have a minority opinion here especially knowing how many people play Space Marines I like the free War gear for the most part okay a lot of people pointed out how especially if you play Old Marines how this causes problems where hey but I can take everyone with a thunder hammer and a storm shield and a jet pack and an electro wizzy dick and all of these other things I I can take all of these fancy features for zero points now but none of my models are modeled this way and none of my kits come with these because these were options in 19dickety 2 on a kit that's not in existent anymore right the problems all come from the old Marine kits that should have been retired a while ago but still exist and will not soon is my hot take there I think that's probably wrong but there's no way in 11th Edition they exist LIVE inth edition is a 10 years of Labor ad no 11th edition's two years away Eric maybe three yeah keep telling yourself that I mean 10th edition is June additions are approximately two years I I have my doubts that 10th edition is going to be on schedule correctly welcome to hot takes where we're gonna tangent a lot and back to my original point when we get there we know that 10th edition in all probability from the leaks that have been pretty reliable for years now we're going to get the primaris equivalent of the jump pack units which is one of the two last things that don't have have new Marines the other being gravis is kind of a poor equivalent to Terminators which is like the most beloved old Marine thing left right they'll probably do gravis 2 Electric Boogaloo which will be more terminatory it could be possible that in 11th they kill off the old Marines just because like that's enough time that like they could do some major like there's a new part of lore that's happening and something needs to like you know the old stuff like isn't working no no they don't have to do any of that every book since the introduction of primaris has had a page or more dedicated to staring the reader in the face and saying old Marines are dying out there will only be Primera soon old Marines are a thing of the past stop [ __ ] playing with them do not assume old Marines will be in 40K forever yeah I I mean it's you bring valid points if they just said stop playing old Marines it would fix the problem with this change and it would be better for basically every other faction yeah and I honestly that's like one of the big things is like this change is the change to War gear where a lot of it's becoming free is like kind of universal and generally good for many factions and it's good for players so specifically not competitive players but they don't matter there's like 150 competitive players on Earth and even then it's like if you're that into it you have to mag things that sucks and that's always been the case for people who are more competitive and anal like us and eventually you get over that fact and learn you don't care that much and you just glue it anyway and then just buy more models like you were intended to but uh back to like the why I actually like this change of the free War gear that everyone got and Space Marines were talking about it here because it it's huge here when little Timmy and little Jimmy put together their first combat patrols They're Gonna Wanna put the cool stuff on their models you don't want your player to feel guilty about doing the cool thing when I put together a combat Patrol that I've got I'm like I want the coolest [ __ ] weapon and making the cool thing the correct choice is good in-game design yes many lectures will teach you this yeah Mark rosewater famous yes players will optimize fun out of the game players will do what's best to win the game even if they hate it your job as a game designer is to make the best thing the most fun thing which if you have the ability to choose whichever word you're is cool that means that for you the best thing is the fun thing the only problems that exist list with this idea when you're like oh well that makes sense for death guard because they get one of each of these weird special weapons if you equip a whole Squad with them they're not overpowered they're just kind of cool and you can equip them basic Loadout and it has a point but like you want the correct thing to be for him to have that giant flail you want it to be interesting and unique and fun and it helps because the death guard kit comes with one of each of those options and you can tell them in the book you can equip one of each of those options but then we get to Space Marines and everybody can equip something there's only one of In The Box and there's problems with this for all over Space Marines that are nowhere else obviously with Drew Cary I can point to we have our Devastator Squad equivalent which would be the scourges the scourges come with one of every heavy weapon which is a problem because that's stupid because you would never have a heavy weapon Squad where everyone has one unique weapon that's a problem where that kit probably could use an update I was like there's a general issue of just having Devastator squad has 20 something options cool that's too many hell blasters have the option of do you want the fast rapid fire one or the shorter stubby assault one that allows you to run and shoot but is slightly weaker or do you want the big heavy one and you just equip your whole Squad with them and you're done just fundamentally it's a change that I agree with even though there are problems the old Space Marines kind of exemplify and show it very obviously like but I'm still on board I still like the idea of War gears free and I'm I'm fine with War gear that cost points if it's costed correctly and it's like it needs to be unique and interesting if it's going to do that it needs to be like oh this is something wild you know like this is the Death Scythe and it's it does something cool and is weird it's not just oh it's a melta but it's got yellow flames so I don't know that's enough of that man that's enough of that yeah and and all the problematic lists people are brainstorming right now involve hey did you know that in this random sub faction you can equip this obscure data sheet with 75 points of options all at once because they didn't write the rules around that the kit doesn't come that way but you could do it legally overall it doesn't really matter because all of these changes thrown together my hot take is still Space Marines are going to be barely scraping 50 win rate because they lost armor of contempt I would completely agree on that so with that I mean let's move on to one that I'm interested in let's move on to gray Knights gray nights how do I start this okay I'll I'll start you off Eric I've got you the first thing you guys need to know about Eric's hot takes for gray nights is he had a really bad work week yeah I'm I'm more positive about gray nights than Eric I think is going to be a running theme for the person most negative is the one who has to play with them but then they look at everyone else and they're like that's not so bad guys right it kind of is and like you lost armor of contempt we lost armor of contempt and we didn't really get anything to fix it we got some point reductions most importantly free War gear which I am a big fan of hammers are not free that will never be free that is a perfect example of the last Cannon the hammer the thing that would lose its identity if it was free or would have to be limited to one per Squad and have the base price of the squad know that the Thunder Hammer is going to be the last guy living yeah and I I do bring it up in like a kind of negative way but I I agree with you like the hammer is a good example of like this is the special thing it's okay to be point cost it and gray Knights those old Marines have the awkward issue of there's one hammer per five but you're allowed to run five hammers per five man it's almost like the problem is old Marines alright so walk me through your actual thoughts on great nights you lost armor of contempt you are very tanky psychic Army who has AP zero Weaponry which didn't care about armor of contempt which puts you at a net positive against other armor of contempt armies while you got the benefit against their AP minus one stuff right one of the biggest things with armor of contempting grainites is gray Knights is a psychic Army the longer your units stay alive the more psychic things they can try and cast the same would be true for everything else but yes but it's one of those like every Granite unit is a psycher and is priced like they have psychic powers yeah exactly so like if you're only alive for one turn and you get to use psychopower once you're probably not getting full utilization out of the point cost if you're able to stay alive for four turns and get the ability to do it four times you're probably higher and taking advantage of the point cost you're getting more than what you've spent armor of contempt made it tankier so it meant that you were able to generally live for two three turns extra armor for temples not two three turns extra against any amount of AP that's not zero and is not four plus where it doesn't matter you're hitting involves are dead against APS one through three armor of contempt is one-sixth of the damage you take you don't it's a lot of people overvalue armor of contempt the points decreases should help offset armor of contempt for the most part I disagree particularly in the armies that are trying to focus on Elites because they don't have the wound count so each wound is more important so that 1 6 you're trying to bank on essentially especially if you're able to buff it with additional defensive layers you know it's just one of those you've got layer upon layer upon layer that you're banking on essentially to get those points out of it so while I I do understand what you're saying and like General troops strike whatever yes because the wound number is where you're getting your value and defensive kind of thing but Eric may I please try to sell you on the great night changes as some of my most hyped changes sure okay so I'm actually very excited for your changes so the little stuff is cute like it's nice that you can just say all my Nemesis dreadnites have the teleporter keyword you don't have to pay 10 points for it sure that's nice that's that's the like cool should have been that way it should have been that way and Nemesis strides being 10 more points was fine they're still good so like whatever a forsy Canon purgation Squad is down 20 points purgation squads aren't great right now but I love them sure so that's already a win in my book for purgation squads there fast attacks you got the generic undo the Nerf that all of the strikes got where it's like hey interceptors went up two points previously to Nerf them because they were a problem we'll undo that Nerf because they lost armor of contempt you take one-sixth more damage within the window of the damage that cared about it and you lose 10 points to counteract that yeah then we get to your Elites paladins is kind of the low point for me I I won't lie and I know you're a paladin man that's why I'm here do you know what gray Knights are supposed to be I know and and paladins are the low Point here because they did not get a point drop which with armor of contempt gone is essentially saying Paladin's got a point increase there are 45 points they were already bad yes now the plus side for paladins is free War gear you get two heavy weapons per five so it's it's a cute little upgrade but yeah it's not it's not great like honestly you you don't care about that on like it's just a cute little thing on your Paladin squads this is the one data sheet where I would say the buff I would give it is give them the free nemesis Steam and hammers let paladins just be the guys who run around with five hammers so yeah paladins is the low Point here however however let's move to your troops this is the big win for me which is the Terminators Terminators were awful when the book came out we talked about this in an early episode that has never been on YouTube where we talked about how a faction can be competitively good by the people playing it can still dislike it because the fantasy of the Army is not being met the classic example at the time was gray Knights the Terminator Army the people who are coming here to play with Terminators paladins who are Terminators whatever we're stuck playing the strike marine Army the ugly 511 short King Army yeah we are finally mathematically to the point where defensively Terminators and Strikes are nearly equivalent I mean strikes are still better they're still better offensively yes but defensively it's finally correct to have either one playing D on a point cool I'm happy about that it's such a good step in the right direction I know it doesn't totally solve it but it's a huge win it's just like I see what you're saying it it is correct for the Terminator to be cheaper 35 it's probably still a bit too much but it's about where we're looking at but just like mathematically the strike is still the right option because defensively it's about the same but offensively it's better let alone the fact that you're able to manipulate your list easier because it's less Point per model so you can have more of a granular option in your list building strategy also why am I doing any of that when I can just take the interceptors I'll just take all the [ __ ] interceptors and I'll take some Nemesis dread Knights I'm gonna max out anonymously stride Knights and I'm going to max out on interceptors yes because you're no longer required to take troops so the Terminator increase doesn't really help it's [ __ ] stupid I'm I want to play paladins I don't want to be this [ __ ] weird kind of army that just has a lot of fast fly boys and like no man I will say the interceptors are like my favorite version of the strike because I like the idea of your fat heavy Terminators and then guys with teleporter packs to make up for it I enjoy that balance the problem is that balance isn't there because there's no reason to take the fat guys standing on points I was like yeah it's if that balance existed that would be cool you're right that would be cool Brad I I actually think one of the things is a Nerf or interceptors to not be able to be taken in tens because the whole stupid you can because you're a Space Marine you can split in half for some reason when no other Army can do this even though you're like cavemen tactically compared to all of the xenos oh I hate it like I said I I have it's difficult for me to talk about gray nights because I think competitively this might be a buff but I don't want to play that list and and it's a list that you've been playing for like a year yeah and when you don't play that list you get punished you get punished less now is my big win is like when you take your Terminators that you know are wrong they're at least less wrong than they used to be then like I'm not taking paladins I'm taking Terminators which I guess is fine because like you get the Brotherhood stuff which is kind of neat and that's never been like previously that wasn't enough to benefit over paladins I would argue previously paladins were always the somewhat defensible options Terminators were never defensible right and the correct option was always to just ignore them both play strikes constantly yeah but like now Terminators are cheaper and you get the Brotherhood stuff so like I guess it's not insane and I really think Terminators could have used more of a point cut Paladin could have used one at all honestly interceptors should have either stayed the same or gone out by one they are honestly still even like I get oh they cut it because armor of contempt is gone but like and this is where I have trouble saying that just for your health as a faction externally gray nights when you abuse every rule in your favor we're having trouble hitting 45 percent you were falling out of the bottom of the gray area we're not in a good spot and like saying we should Nerf interceptors to make other things useful is not the correct answer because interceptors are holding you up at 40 something percent the only reason why I I have that concern is because of the changes to Arc of Omens that is drastically going to change how one of the things with gray Knights is even the skewed lists were still not that insane they were like okay you're you're taking a bit much you've got too many Nemesis dread Knights but the rest of the army still kind of a cohesive thing I don't think that's going to be the case now it's going to be dreadnites and interceptors the other thing that irritated me is like they did bring down Keller Drago 15 points great he was overcasted even with armor of contempt he's still overcast it and one of the things with Kel Rodrigo was like with armor of conduct and his Buffs it was really [ __ ] difficult to get rid of because he had so many stacking defensive layers I have no reason to play Calder Drago now he's killable now I don't Hannah spends 160 points 165 points on something that's killable the real problem is goddamn Terminator is moving five inches is such a downside and I mean this doesn't even get into like there's the secondary changes and like why would you increase the warp charge of that it's just annoying like why would you increase the warp charge for purifying ritual it's already one of those you have to do multiple times and the downside is you're not using those casts defensively or offensively why so they fixed the Demon Slayer warlord trait yes they finally fixed the thing that we had already fixed ourselves but thank you yeah I hope I'm wrong I hope there's healthy lists for gray nights that are fun all right we're through two of the longest factions for two unrelated reasons [Laughter] uh so let's real quick stop by Adept a sororities to laugh because hey at least you're not sisters right now I'm sorry if you play sisters because God damn yeah so what did they get back from AOC removal um they got nerfed sisters repent should cost more in addition to the Army lost armor of contempt congratulations your tanks that no one was playing are slightly cheaper foreign that is hilarious [Laughter] we all got together and gifted one of each of the sister tanks to our player who plays adepta sororitus because who doesn't like the tanks specifically doesn't want to have to paint the tanks yeah so we bought them all the tanks Merry Christmas but yeah I don't I don't think he's going to be playing sisters for a little bit no especially because death card's more interesting right now in my opinion and he plays both so to keep going here it is time to move on to what I think is probably the biggest winner of the factions that existed before this which is adeptus custodies yeah custodies good Lord did you win in this data slate guys everyone else is crying and custodies players are basking in the golden Glory I'm happy with almost every change except one I do not like that they unnerfed esteemed amalgam uh Emperor's auspice and the Marshall discretion thing I kinda hated that they made them once per game instead of just point increasing esteemed amalgam the one I want nerfed is Emperor's chosen I really despise when so much power is in a single sub faction that there is never a reason to choose a different one and the you get to be every sub faction you want to be on every turn of the game is [ __ ] it's annoying yeah it should just cost like three CP so you only blow it in an absolute emergency and then if you're like you know I'm blowing this every turn I should probably just play the damn faction that I'm blowing it for but when it's one CP you're just gonna do it especially now that you get one CP on your turn one on your opponent's turn you can just do it forever that yeah it's true I I actually hadn't really thought about the fact that like because the CP stuff you get to do it whenever you want assigned chili it's my only downside huge winds across the border than that and that's not a bad thing for you guys it's just a bad thing for if you don't want to play Emperor's chosen there's very little reason not to play Emperor's chosen right I mean it is a buff I'm so happy that the Terminators got back their absec yeah so now all infantry core infantry and troops it's all of the custodies core infantry also only the anathema saikana troops which means only the pergregators I don't remember the the sisters that are troops prosecutors prosecutors basically custodies got abstract back for all the stuff that matters they still don't have it on their bikes like an 8th Edition but that's how it should be that was dumb but they got it back on their Terminators which I call a huge win as that is like my favorite part of that Army those big bulky tournaments well and it was it was honestly really dumb that custodies didn't have that like when like my faction does in Thousand Suns my Terminators get upset but a [ __ ] custody doesn't yeah I so very happy for custodies and you got Buffs you didn't get nerfed you didn't lose armor of contempt you got my favorite trick the witch Seeker flamer bus got a buff and I love that now it went from my favorite toy to I actually think this is competitively viable along with the prosecutors as well I guess that makes sense given the absec stuff and and well they already were opsec that part is just how that rule was written it's oh just elongated back to what it was there the reason they got a point decrease is because they were used to fill out a Detachment you would take two custodian guards and one of them because you had to take a one-to-one ratio to fill out a battalion that made it cheaper than taking three units of custodian guards you no longer need to do that so you might as well make them cheaper so that someone might play them right yeah I mean not many point decreases because like you didn't lose armor of contempt the rest of the game did you won so hard when everyone else is crying about things hahaha yeah there's there's not really any negatives there which is no so Henry cavall's trip to Warhammer to secure them with a new show got rewarded hell yeah dude now I just need him to get into gray nights there we go all right let's move on to guard guard is the actual biggest winner of the data slate and I think it's going to be a problem uh but they didn't exist before it so they don't really count yeah that's my thing is like guard is just weird because like they have new stuff we'll figure out what that means they have new stuff that basically everyone who has read it has gone this is probably going to be problematic for being incredibly oppressive and it got buffed instead of nerfed like they received like better secondaries and stuff competitively like none of our local play group plays guard so I don't technically care about them one way or the other I'm gonna keep those real short but I am with the people who are like hey if you care about competitive play guard are gonna be a problem probably but that's okay it's guard they need a little bit of they need a little bit of love after the [ __ ] that they've gone through so you can be the one everybody else despises for a short time get your time in the sun bask in their anger it's great okay let's move on to adaptist mechanicus edmac's an interesting one man like they're another big winner from this yeah so core to the breachers and destroyers which they should have had the whole time but whatever and the bionics is a five up in Bowl instead of a six up which is again huge and that's actually like you can start making tactical decisions on a five up like a six up you're like I'm just fishing for a six up because I did something dumb a five up you're like I can make some statistical ideas here there's the other thing of the whole Army got minor Point drops everywhere just like Marines did admac didn't lose armor of contempt now admik was trash but it's a big win that you might be out of the dumpster finally there's going to be a lot of interesting things for ad Mech short term until things get figured out just having troop options again because like destroyers and breachers being a thing again is wild because they got destroyed by the 9th Edition codex yeah well and they are heavy Point costs compared to skatari skataria cheap as [ __ ] so you better be good to compare to it I am very interested for the admac changes like I have concerns that I think it's going to be another one of those like to be good you have to jump through a bunch of Hoops so you have to be a good player kind of thing and know all the rules and all this is and that is that's guaranteed because of the ad McKnight Edition codex it's over complicated as hell because the guy who wrote it could not stop writing rules for ad Mech so it's one of those like I don't see these changes making it so it's oppressive I'm worried that the floor and ceiling of admac are Everest apart yes and like your local ad Mech player is at the floor I do feel like more of the War gear could have been just like free instead of because there's still a bunch of other like five points but admac overall solid let's move on to Imperial Knights yeah so let's let's just do ik and CK at the same time are you ready sure GW forgot you okay the changes aren't in the data Slater the points the changes are in Arc of Bowman the secondaries are tertiaries whatever you want to call them the mission secondary those ones now mention like war dogs can score extra points War Dog spam did not get nerfed running avadon with War Dogs doesn't work so the best CS or the best CK list is gone Imperial Knights didn't really care about soup at all because we never got to live with Gilman working with knights so they don't care about the change the big one is knights's soup is huge now because all Imperium can take Imperial Knights all chaos can take chaos nights essentially for absolute free and like because of the way the new Detachment works like you don't have to worry about like oh I have to warp my list around this it's just like yeah well it's you only get a single unit because it's it has to be a super heavy Ox so it's only one unit that you get to Splash in so big winners here are people who need ranged heavy weapons or big tanky thing to Tango on Mid so sisters sisters honestly could be a winner here another one that I know someone pointed out is technically they're like one of the cheaper things you can throw into custodies oh no no oh God no custodies with Imperial Knights might be like better ranged Firepower for custodies than any custodies model from like a rule of cool that's awesome but it's gonna look real dumb after the third tournament yeah Thousand Suns on the CK side of things have debated doing it before but it's never worth the CP now that it's essentially free we may end up doing it I've always thought it was worth the CP but then again like no we have to spend all of our CP the characters have to have everything and then you have to have two CP available turn one to not have 400 points destroyed right right yeah so like CK and ik changed in weird hard to see ways okay let's move on to chaos based Marines so chaos based screens up first here you got nerfed for creations of bile we all knew that one was coming least surprising change kinda thought it was correct to do last time but we knew it was it was figured out too late to be in that right it was one of those like we all knew it needed to be changed but we knew it two weeks before the changes were made public which isn't enough time to really test and like put it out there so now is when it happened okay and you lost armor of contempt another kick to the balls yeah I mean that's honestly kind of annoying and you suspiciously got a lot less Point decreases than Space Marines and Terminators went up you talk about less Point decreases Terminators are up three what and slanesh is up another five so technically the the Terminators everyone was playing are up eight that's crazy great night Terminators are 35. [Laughter] you can't say the same thing though because like when you had slanesh Terminators and you were playing like Emperor's Children there were some sweet lists doing that but internal balance wise I understand some of the changes the armor of contempt changes don't really get compensated by chaos Bay Springs chaos-based Marines was and above 50 win rate faction and you did get a little bit like legionnaires do get all of the free stuff so like you can you can do your heavy weapon for free you can do a power ax on your sergeant or whatever for free I I don't know the Legionnaire load out too well I'm just guessing based off Marines and that yeah that's nice it's little stuff it's not making up for the loss of armor of contempt you're just getting an indirect Nerf and your two sub-factions that were out of control good both got direct Nerfs right and the rest of them I don't think they were good I really don't no there there are several I worry that now CSM is going to fall to like a 45 win rate Army and they won't be fine anymore but like most of their sub factions were hitting 50 win rate like apart from like the two really bad ones but okay I mean I think chaos Space Marines are in a bad spot right now Abby did eat a huge Nerf though just to double grind in that uh he's plus 50 points you can't play him with knights with the way the rules are actually written raw oh geez and they just increased his points by 50 as an extra [ __ ] you for trying part of the problem is like when you put him next to one of the large frame Knights it becomes very apparent why those are unplayable questarus frame Knights are pointed so heavily for no reason but yeah moving into death guard you lost AOC a lot of your stuff got cheaper and it it's basically the wash like like we talked about AOC when it matters you take one-sixth more damage you lost 10 percent of points it should about come out in the wash against like infinite different variations of Firepower hitting you in exchange you got a bunch of cool War gear changes uh Terminators get to play with all of their fancy toys yeah I mean I I honestly don't know because like the point stuff for death guard it probably will work out yeah the big thing for me is like all of their vehicles got decent Point drops for what they are well I don't think they touched the no they didn't touch plague burst crawler but I kind of get that uh but like methodic blight hauler bloat drones options are now free so you can run your flesh mower or whatever your blight launcher for free there's some interesting point assessments it really will be interesting to see what people decided to take on this one just because like basically all workers free for the most part because the War gear on the troops was already free uh there's a few like twin last Canada's 10 now on hellbrew so like I guess I was like is it just literally death guard is the faction that we can point to and be like everything's free but no there's still a few that you have to pay for yeah and again I'm okay if it's like the twin Lads cost some points everything else is free pick what you like all right so we uh move into my annoyance okay let's hear what you've got for Thousand Suns all right so thousand suns it's kind of funny in a sad way where I checked my other armies I talked with the patrons in the Discord and like an hour later I was at work and I remembered I never even checked thousand suns well nothing will have changed and I was right that's not true so we lost armor of contempt I would argue we were one of the best armor of contempt armies because all his dust combined with armor of contempt made us very tanky boys yeah and again you're psychers a little tankier you are the more efficient you become and we got [ __ ] by flamers flamers existed we could sue flamers for free our win rate went from 40 to 50 and they took that as time to Nerf thousand suns even though it's the flamers holding this Army up so we lost armor of contempt and we did not get the points drop every other Army got you did get some Fair number of War gear options uh on Eunice no one used but yeah so things things that quote unquote matter in Thousand Suns let me run through them real quick hold on did they make zangos cheaper no I I wish they had that's the real problem is like I wish there was a reason to tell someone go buy his encore so it's so bad dude I hate I hate sliders this is the problem we've talked about this in a couple episodes now I I don't think I've talked about this on air very much zangor were my favorite part of thousand suns I started as a demon guy I got thousand suns so I could soup in you know I love zinc so I might as well play the other Zen Charmy and I was like oh they've got these demon guys in the Army who should just be chaos demons it's kind of weird they're in Thousand Suns but whatever oh they don't have the demon keyword that's also weird that's also weird they don't have a lower reason to exist we could get into that discussion and they just randomly got pooped into the Codex so that they could add units to an eighth edition when they didn't put any investment into the new Army from seventh edition uh I I do enjoy hearing your rants about and then in ninth Edition they nerfed all interactions so that zangor were never correct to take but uh to go through a thousand Subs real quick the things that changed that matter exalted Sorcerers you can take a copesh for free now so it's just assumed you have a copesh cool uh all of the pistols that do not matter you can take whatever pistol you want they still don't matter you can take uh Inferno Combi melta for free now on your Sorcerer And Terminator armor that gun that I never cared about okay troops the two options on zangor are now baked into the 70 base points which is nice I guess they're like demons again uh cultists the weird five extra point things that cultists can wear are free I guess but it doesn't matter they're not going to deal any damage the whole game the hell brute's options are cheaper the twin Lads is the only thing that cost points now the hell brute is 105 points that doesn't give you any cabal points so no one's going to take it still which sucks because I I do actually think the hellbird's cool if the hell brute could cast one spell deny one spell and gave me a cabal point I would take hell brutz I don't think it would be like good I I would take my 3D printed hell brute which looks more like it should belong in Thousand Suns because it's just a Dreadnought but whatever [Laughter] Scarab occult Terminators got untouched which is a Nerf again because they lost armor of contempt they were probably the best armor of contempt receiver in chaos at least probably yeah the Zango Shaman's down 10 points which is actually a thing especially Elite characters which we haven't really talked about this for all the other armies it's a minor little buff they no longer fight your Elites for slots right which is Big because Elite characters are often considered useless not just because they increase the amount of points you give up against things like um assassination or a poor the witch or whatever if you're a psycho army they also were fighting often your best slot in your list now they don't fight that so for all the armies we've mentioned previously like gray Knights your Apothecary got a buff by not fighting your paladins or your whatever else is in your Elite slot for slots it is actually pretty interesting to be able to have nine Elites essentially because three of them have to be characters but like there's some interesting stuff you could do with that yeah ancients don't cost you a slot they just just cost you their points we can still argue if they're worth it or not but right I mean I was I'm I'm more interested in it for Orcs but yeah it is good for the the armies that are trying to push more Elite slots so back in the Thousand Sun specifics our chaos bonds are down two points sweet because we basically just run a single chaos bond to hold a point in the back or these thousand Sons chaos ones can actually [ __ ] we often run them in five spawn squads to just go screw with people on midboard I'm a fan of that so it is actually a minor win there those takes no one has ever purchased or ever used all lost points The mutelith Vortex Beast my favorite doggo is 15 points cheaper nice he's still really bad it's still not what you should do but congratulations you've gained 15 points for your your stupid list when I waste points on playing the doggo you're not wasting quite as many uh Magnus the red is still 422 many points but yeah at least lowered him to 400 like he should be like if I'm being like super spiky about it like 350 360 380 something like that it might be it might be 320 but we'll say 350. it could be really cheap because I think thousand sun is in a really bad spot right now I actually do too I think this is going to be that how could we have seen this we nerfed thousand suns indirectly we didn't give them the compensation Buffs because they were doing so well suddenly they're not doing well what do you mean they were running 18 flamers yeah because honestly like without those you were fine they they were with gray Knights down at the low 40s it was the sad we were on the we were on The Fringe of like this is not great but like it was playable and then we got flamers and shot up to All-Star tier because we could just run the best unit in the game and without that and losing armor of contempt because like you took advantage of our American attempt maybe the most like there's probably a loyalist Marine who got about equivalent out of it but like the Scarab occult Terminator was like the defensive profile that you checked anti-tank against and failed essentially yeah and like you're gonna have to do some thinking on Thousand Suns because I don't think it's in a good spot and you're gonna have to figure something out it doesn't upset me that much I I am someone who plays multiple armies I own necrons I'm used to having armies get shelved honestly you're used to the these are built I haven't touched them in eight months uh so yeah a thousand suns is in a slightly worse spot than it was sadly I do think against the field it lost a little bit I think you should look into the chaos nights I yeah I I own chaos nights I can just go play them for a while and see what's going on can all the questora frames just lose like 25 30 points you have to use big numbers with knights because like if you don't hit a hole like 150 you don't get an extra model yeah like oh cool now your your list is 1920 points yeah that that could happen in nights thanks okay I guess you want to go into chaos demons because you've already brought up the flamer stuff let's talk about the demons in the room this is part of my two steps forward one step back chaos demons is two step forward one step back I'd almost say it'd be pure forward if it wasn't for a single stupid change so let's let's talk about everything else first corn the name doggo cheaper blood Crushers cheaper doggos Cheaper by a lot skull Cannon cheaper still a toy but I love it for some reason the most perfectly priced thing in the Codex the bloodthirster went up 10 points for the loadout that was most correct kind of annoying whatever not the thing that pisses me off nurgle great unclean ones across the board down 20 points good it was like it's still too expensive but a group of 10 plague bearers 20 points less good if they lost another 10 points they're probably one of the best troop choices imaginable but where they're at now is at least like a really good debating spot uh beasts of nurgles lost 10 points a model solid uh play drones down Five Points a model I honestly think they could have dropped 10 points a model but whatever it's a good start nurgle is in a much healthier slot now nurgle did not gain the thing I talked about in the whole demon codex analysis episode of like nerkle lost its identity in 9th Edition and has zero identity it's it's just ugly models the Army they're they're nothing anymore they have no no flavor in any of their rules it's just here is the cost of these blank data sheets they're like necrons really in a sad way yeah basically nurgle's in a better spot competitively they did not solve the flavor issues slinash not much changed Dre right not really fiends are a bit cheaper and fiends are pretty cool uh Seekers are a little cheaper Seekers have never been good so that might be interesting if they're finally a little bit playable salaski the twins the Wonder Twins they got dumpstered in ninth edition's codex I really liked them in the 8th Edition codex they were really cool they were like a cheaper Secret Keeper Of Secrets but they they were like a really fun you could use them to buff a bunch of demonets and there was some cool stuff they lost like everything and for some reason were 200 points okay uh so they're down to 180 but they still lost everything so it's like bellacor by some miracle remains unchanged congratulations bellacor I really thought you were screwed laughs we've we've skipped over something we have uh Soul Grinder's unchanged demon Prince unchanged I think demon Prince could have lost 10 points but whatever I really wish Wings had gone down on every chaos Army but that's a different debate the Soul Grinder stayed the same I know some people really like like Soul Grinder heavy lists that's cool for them I don't own a Soul Grinder I'll probably print one eventually because I hate that kit and and and zinc zinc hi hi yeah so Point wise zinch is pretty interesting like so Point wise uh screamers are down to 25 points thank God because that was an awful price for how bad they were uh the burning Chariot is down Five Points that's neat Master mutator went up five points I knew it was the best one and if for some reason it wasn't the most expensive one now it is uh fade skimmer went up 10 points no one is shocked it deserved it Lord of change went up 10 points we're being punished a little bit because the turkey is cool but whatever I don't think that's that big of a deal like it's already inexpensive model so like yeah you were already only bringing one the problems was niche as an army is there's no reason to bring a second Lord of change because you run out of freaking spells anyway so yeah that's fine whatever so flamers flamers they're a problem that problematic awful awful data sheet yeah the one that should have gone up at least 10 points we could argue if they never wanted to see competitive play they could jack it up 25 points and it would just be a bad unit for a while and then it could come down over time yeah you'd kind of just be like yeah ignore it don't play it when they when people forgotten about it you can get it back yeah so that would have been a nice solution if they wanted to dumpster it if they just jacked it up 10 points that would have worked it'd probably still be one of the best units in the game so maybe 15 points to guarantee it's mid okay that's not what they did it didn't change in points Eric no it did not three wound model with a three up and vulnerable save at ranged didn't change in points it's 25 points still do you know what changed what changed the flamers who are named the same as the flamer the type of weapon whose defining characteristic as it automatically hits they don't automatically hit anymore are you [ __ ] high maybe they fixed the problem this is a level of [ __ ] up this is beyond stupidity oh I think it's hilarious they just need to change the name of flamers now I if they had done it at the same time I'd be like fine that's the stupidest thing but climbers are now non-flames and they don't Auto hit [ __ ] Christ I I'm so mad this is the dumbest thing it solves the problem do you want to know the more [ __ ] up part I did the quick math this morning in my rage flamers as they were Auto hitting they got each each single model let's focus on one model okay yeah yeah a flamer has D6 plus three shots at a stupid good profile of the whole flamer profile but D6 automatic hits plus three they have a ballistic skill of three because it's written on the data sheet but it doesn't matter because they Auto hit if you have D6 shots that automatically hit on average you get 3.5 shots the math Works 6.5 shots is what they used to do per flamer at 25 points with crazy damage output anyway uh they were real good they were so if we take away their Auto hit and make them hit a ballistic skill 3. you have 6.5 shots 66.7 or 66.6 repeating seven percent of them hit 4.3 of them hit now okay you could have just taken away the three generic free hits they got made them a normal flamer the thing they're named the same as so it would just be D6 automatic hits it would be worse it would be worse than the the change they made they would be even safer but you wouldn't have ruined the defining characteristic you would have actually made it more obvious because it would have been like what's that unit with the flamer they're called flamers it has D6 automatic hits oh like all the flamers in my Army wow yeah like every other flamer oh wow this is I understand now that's not what they chose to do Brad made that ballistic skill matter it's on the sheet we're gonna use it I can't believe I cannot get this through my head I get that there's some problems going on over in Nottingham but Jesus Christ why did you choose the stupidest solution out of all the infinite solutions in the entire universe there are so many ways of fixing it and like there's a lot of ways to fix it and make sure it's not a problem like just double the point cost GG yeah you can put them in the punishment box I'm aware of how game design works sometimes we don't design for balance we design for the happiness of people playing the game right and they don't always want balance they think they do but they don't what they want is a change of the status quo when it gets tiring and you want that visceral emotion where it's like yeah [ __ ] flamers man they're they should be double points that's right this doesn't really do that this is just as dumb I hate this so much maybe when they wrote it the power was out and then I'm like scrolling it down in the dark and didn't actually see what they were pointing it to and this was a change for something else laughs I'm just so mad it's so stupid you had one job so demons overall like Let's ignore the flamer in the room Brad let's talk about overall demons ignoring the stupidest change ever I actually like the rest of the demon changes nurgle still needs an identity but whatever it's a miracle bellicor Got Away With It Bravo bellacor anyway we've we've finished chaos that means we're gonna move into let's do elves all right we can go through elves uh I'm gonna spend a lot less time on elves for the most part as your Ani uh Craft World Eldar as everyone who speaks English would say got some weird Point increases got some decent Point decreases on a couple weird things uh dark reapers are down 15 points that's cool they suck met changes all around big win uh they undid that stupid data slay thing I hated where they changed fire and fade variants to be once per game yeah which was kind of defeating the purpose of like they're supposed to be the fast agile mobile Army yeah I remember you telling me about that one and I was like that doesn't make any damn sense I appreciate undoing that one so it's hard to tell with azrani they were already one of the better factions although they had been falling pretty steadily after the last round of Nerfs they'll probably be fine uh there is a funny one for like just a little haha moment uh I was reading like right away oh wow they got a couple Point increases that's weird and one of them was wraithguard and I was like why did they punish wraiths no one plays wraiths everyone wishes you could play wraiths Apparently one one competitive player plays wraithguard with d size which is the one thing that went up in Five Points as the D scythe um oh okay so apparently they nerfed an option on a unit nobody plays because a single competitive player played a slant list around them sounds right real weird but whatever I I can't say it's going to do anything meh they seem like they were basically untouched it's too hard for me to talk about I don't have the experience to say what's good and bad in there uh harlequins I'm so sorry yeah I can't believe they increased the point cost of web wigate what what were you thinking of oh God there is the cute thing of mirror architect got unnerfed and just correctly pointed 10 out of 10 change I like that rather than trying to balance harlequins by just increasing their points to be correct for their data sheets they lost their four up at Universal and vulnerable save and had it replaced with a five up it's so weird because that's like their defining trait is zinc demons used to be the four up and vulnerable save harlequins mashed it because of the whole the two gods of Deceit playing with each other or [ __ ] around are they just randomly I guess ours changed to a three slash six which is real weird it is weird it'd be kind of cute if they ended up with an identical it'd be real dirty they probably shouldn't do this but I think it would be cute from a narrative standpoint if they ended up with a demon save that matched each demon saves just as chagorath [ __ ] her Alice inch but uh let's not do that I think that would be problematic Brad therefore up in vulum every save is a coin flip is kind of adorable and very sad rather than just properly point the damn models they decided to just destroy that it's gonna be a real problem honestly how do you play when you're so weak defensively you hide in boats like you have been doing yeah now will they be finally below a 50 win rate because they were problems I I'm not saying Harlequin players were guilt-free here we're on a third round of Nerfs here and uh they still were the highest or second highest Army in the game for most of the last round of changes but like honestly a lot of that is could be handled from points like troops don't need to be 13. things like the Galaxy brain just making this one change let them undo a bunch of other Nerfs next time so that like luck of the Laughing God says what it says in the book and like light say it gets changed back and like all that stuff I was gonna say like they get all of the fun flavorful interesting parts of their army bag I do wonder if Harley Quinn's gets dumpstered down to like a 35 win rate from this from their like 65 or whatever they were sitting at maybe that means like next go around they can rip out that five paragraphs of Nerfs and just leave this one the long game I feel like I'm giving more credit than credit is due when it comes to the company that just pumped out that flamer change yeah no matter what harlequins are not better they definitely got the Nerf you you got hit hard you kind of deserved it still it's been quite a few rounds of having to Nerf you I at the drakari player I was there I do almost hope that it does like actually dumpster the so that maybe they can unleash some of the things that they've done otherwise I honestly think the worst thing would be like if harlequins just drop in play rate a bunch but still hover at like 50 like this that'd be awful okay drukkari there's not much to talk about honestly there's one big thing to talk about which is I saved this for the show because I knew you were in a bad mood and I knew it would make you more Angry oh wonderful so you know how we're recording these hot takes that we're currently two and a half hours into this recording right now wherever you are in this episode thank the editor for how much got cleaned hahaha maybe this is the second episode who knows yeah hot takes have a history of becoming two episodes yeah so if this is a part two welcome so uh the whole update's not out yet oh in the original warcom article a week or two ago they mentioned Arc of almond showed it off for the first time the new the new list style Detachment thing right the Arc of omen Detachment got shown off and they mentioned in the article the warcom team did the very reliable warcom team that told you to buy vehicles to play with bellacor I'll never forgive them for that but the warcom team went hey don't worry about the fact that Arc of omen looks like it gets rid of all the other Detachment types because we're going to properly compensate people who require other Detachment types like Dark Angels and drukkari Space Marines can't be forgotten so Dark Angels got stuff written to fix them temporarily right okay they forgot drukkari and I got pointed out like hey you kind of just bricked a whole faction we can't play our rules prevent us from filling out a 2000 Point Army using this Detachment without playing a really bad Army and they were like oh [ __ ] we forgot I mean tell them the drukari update is coming out it'll be out in a few weeks there will be an FAQ oh no they they literally forgot oh and just said Hey in a couple weeks we're gonna bring in an FAQ that fixes it so that you can use the new [ __ ] detachments right that's awful dude it's so [ __ ] infuriating that's not great especially because they said a couple weeks and this is this is like yesterday they posted this or today a couple weeks is a long time to not be able to play an army the defense to that is technically these rules don't go live for another week and a half this is all an emergency dump of rules right because alcohol is bad for you we're not talking about that we're not talking about the drama but uh yeah so it's it's bad because a couple of weeks has passed when this becomes legal so now you've got like lvo where they were like do we use the old dead rules or do we use the new rules that everyone will have like a week to figure stuff out with if you were planning to play dracari You're not voting for new rules when you may not be able to play your damn faction is there a way to like play even if it's not great there's a bad way to play yeah you could play it okay it's just you're not winning a [ __ ] tournament with it right you're not winning against casual Space Marines with it to explain it for those who don't know how drukari work usually you have three patrols you have patrols and you can use one two or three they're all zero CP for drukari you could also play a fluffy list in a battalion playing one of each with a whole bunch of extra rules for how you have to construct your army and play this like super balanced list that would be the way that you could still technical play okay I didn't know that that was a thing it's not used as a faction you just run patrols because you don't get punished for running a bunch of patrols and then there's a whole bunch of restrictions in the Army to make you run a bunch of patrols with how hqs function and stuff and how they have to be everything is like I will never work with anyone else so they have to be alone in their Detachment there's a whole bunch of stuff that just doesn't work rules wise with one Mega Detachment that everything has to be jammed in when everything says I can't play with anybody so yeah it's pretty funny to me I I got a good chuckle it's pretty funny dracary players we've been the bad guys for half the addition and like we're rolling with when we get hit it's fine it's pretty funny man once you get the ability to play correctly again Jakari you'll be fine no one cares let's keep going though leagues of otan you got some Nerfs you were a really good army I don't know if you got enough Nerfs but man good enough it's so new that I don't really know but necrons you're happy about the necron changes aren't you they're not bad okay two step forward one step back again [Laughter] the the mixed feelings Eternal conquerors change I have set it a hundred thousand times that the Codex is held up by obstacle we all know we know I don't like it the Codex should have been written right and that should not be a thing unfortunately the Codex wasn't written right so it kind of has to be a thing that is the reason you were existing for a while currently necrons has been in a better spot recently they kind of fell back to like 50-ish percent win rate near the end of the season as everyone figured them out and then they nerfed absecall to be the equivalent of indrukhari what we call all consuming it means that Eternal conquerors you can't take a circumstance of Awakening when you take it uh you only get one of your two custom sub-faction rules if you take it this would be not that much of a Nerf in my opinion a correct Choice overall for the balance of the army except it is such a stupid way to write this the correct wording should be remove Eternal conquerors it should just be delete it because you've made a rule in the book that is always wrong you should never ever ever ever ever pick Eternal conquerors you have left it in the book you have written an extra rule talking about it to ensure that it is a trap it is now bad game design you have written a purely worse rule that serves no purpose because nihilic Dynasty exists treyson's Dynasty tracen's Dynasty gives absec all it also gives armor of contempt if you're fully within your deployment Zone which makes Eternal conquerors useless so why are there rules about eternal conquerors written not only in the Codex but then in a data slate to balance it to balance it to a point where it should never be used just write the sentence remove Eternal conquerors from this list this this is something that most people won't understand why I'm so mad I am mad because I care about game design stuff this is infuriating to read when it's like this is the stuff that you get told never do these things and then you watch successful companies do these things and it's not like one of those like every once in a while you have to do the wrong thing as a designer because that's like I've figured out where it's correct to bend the rules this isn't one of those this is just dumb but the vast majority of the necron changes I'm in favor of like overall this is a happy feeling for necrons uh necron Warriors down two points model thank God they're terrible death marks I just made fun of them last episode as the worst [ __ ] model they're so bad for their points down two points a model still probably bad but at least math wise they're a little better doomsday Arc hilarious ghost Arc also hilarious uh the Doomsday Arc at the beginning of the Edition I believe was 190 points and the strictly better Forge World one was 10 points more and it was way better so then they lowered it to like 170 and people still pointed out that the other one was better then they lowered it to 160 and then I was like okay what the hell is the point of a doom stalker because for 30 more points you get a doomsday Arc doomsday Arc still aren't coming off the shelf because it's a terrible model in my opinion but I'm going to assume they're filling up a warehouse somewhere because they just dropped them to 145 points an Annihilation barge is 120 points a canoptic doomstalker is 130 points for 15 more [ __ ] points you get an entire doomsday Arc why are you taking anything else it has to be that the arcs are filling up warehouses and someone in sales is like lower that thing make it move I'm sick of seeing these on the shelves yeah I don't know man like I'm not saying it's completely wrong that that should go down but in relationship to the other things it's like what the problem is the data's sheet is terrible like the problem with most necrons they could cost 20 points less and it's still it's a bad data sheet at a certain point we're just trying to figure out what the minimum Point cost a tank that can randomly blow something up is worth but like really statistically unlikely to do it but it could happen so then Lord of Wars monolith got Cheaper by 30 points the death rays are free which is good because the death rays are correct and this gets into something that affects a lot more armies but I haven't gotten into the Lord of War slots you no longer need to run three of them to take a super heavy and burn CP on it or run only one of them in an AUX and lose the rules on the unit right like they're a lot better than they were and the model is cheaper the monolith still sucks because it's really hard to move it's essentially terrain because it lost fly so it's it's too fat to go anywhere I'll be honest I didn't think it could move it it it's a flying ship Eric it's just a pyramid but it's a flying pyramid never seen it move every art of them they're never on the ground doesn't mean it can move so they had flight they would be flyers and then you couldn't put it on the battlefield start I'd be fine with that at least it wouldn't be Terrain in the back line stuck but yeah the model is still probably a trap but it's an enticing trap Tesseract Vault went down 40 points and I'm a sucker for Katan so like maybe so it's time to talk about something that I was also sandbagging because it affects necrons the mo well it affects other armies equally as much but I know necrons well enough to describe the problem here okay the silent King hey it's a silent King do you want to put a silent King in your arm Eric um sure you can't why not uh two reasons one do you want to play his dynasty no then no one ever does and no one ever did you would have to because he's in the detachment bright and he has the dynastic agent keyword which means he can be in any Detachment he doesn't have to be in his Dynasty's Detachment except he also has his own keyword for flavor reasons because they don't know how rules work and because he has that there is that obscure rule at the beginning of the rules for the necrons that says you cannot put two dynasties in the same Detachment if you do lose all your command points you can't gain any ah right the Monopoly rule you lose battleforged which is what the game is based off of in the core rulebook you are not a battle forged Army anymore so there's that problem that only affects silent King because necrons has the extra issue the more important problem is he's a supreme commander Eric they can only be put in Supreme Commander detachments the rules aren't there to put them in the Arc of omen attachment it doesn't matter how many points mortarion Magnus and Silent King are I completely forgot that that's what that is that's hilarious you can't play any of your Supreme commanders by rules right now for some God forsaken reason wow I think you can still play the little ones who can be played in like a patrol like the ones who don't have to go in Supreme Commander like I think you could play bellicor and I think you could play the Tau one Shadow Sun because I think they don't and uh belisarius call I think can be put like in a normal slot they just happen to also be Supreme commanders but they don't have the rules saying like must go in the Supreme command attachment cannot play outside of it yeah to just give you the long and short of it by raw right now you can't play your 190 silent King for two different reasons well that's good because silent King is dumb to be honest after all of the fixes go into place you could play him again I think silent King's going to be propping up necron's at a healthy 35 win rate oh yeah net clearance necrons are [ __ ] like it's gonna be loose I'm not gonna lie so Orcs Eric let's move into Orcs Orcs actually not too many changes there uh a few changes to equipment so like your big choppas and stuff like that are cheap I love that the rocket launcher is still five points they downed it from ten to five they remembered it it's not that they just forgot to fix Orcs right which is more annoying they were like the rocket launcher you know that thing that fires on and hits on fives because it's on an orc that's the thing we're worried about not a Space Marine with a multi-melta in a tactical Squad and all of his friends can have one and a storm shield and a dick Whistler 5000 No 1 in 10 boys with a rocket launcher needs five extra points though on a similar thing custom Jobs still cost points I would be a fan of seeing what would happen if custom jobs went free I'll tell you that right now it won't break anything especially because the one thing that might be concerning would be if a flyer had them if a flyer had it but guess what happened to Flyers they got nerfed and then they got grounded oh I did have someone point out when we posted the episode today that the Stompa is way less embarrassing in Arc of Omens because it can be in your main Detachment now kinda spicy especially for like gorkonaut Mark or not that's exactly where I was going I was like Orcs I would have been disappointed because of the custom jobs that should be free just because it's interesting the Flyers man I just want to play some of those cool Flyers but whatever okay gorkhana and Morgan both went down 35 points they're still very expensive 330 315 but we're like okay I'm interested it's like the monolith it's the enticing trap now exactly I know it's wrong but I'm going to play it yeah and because arcs of omen Detachment lets us do Lord of War stuff dude I'm I'm having fun with that stop-up this is for later you don't tell me right now we don't have to read The Stomp and analyze it for an hour how bad is a Stompa um can a Stompa beat a knight in combat maybe if I put her in a canoe will it float maybe that's where it becomes problem is like it honestly is like probably but it's only probably and it's 675 points I think the gorgonaut marconot is kind of cute I I actually am going to try gorking on a mark not now I don't think stompa's actually like I might do it just because rules wise I can on the plus side as I learned when I was looking up all the stuff for last episode they're pretty cheap to buy especially if you go with a proper sales place and not MSRP yeah so not much has changed even before the point change just seeing the Arc of omen Detachment I was like I'm gonna try gorking on marking up here's a bonus for you as an Orc player don't all your boys in attacking have minus one AP like don't they have that um Choppa is -180 big chop is minus one the choppa's minus one as well yeah yeah that's pretty good with AOC gone that's a big buff for Orcs if you want to play boys yeah and Commandos Etc anything that hits honestly like all of my interesting thoughts are because of the Detachment dude I can go Elite heavy with Commandos oh yeah but there's some weird stuff that I saw about like boss Nick rot because he's tied to blood axes and blood axes has some weird stuff because it's part of the whatever supplement thing that doesn't make sense because blood axes is in the Codex yeah but some of the rules is oh I think some of his rules or something like that I don't I saw somebody post like oh this is weird does that actually still work and I was like oh no my plan of Commando spam with Snick rot is in danger I think we're safe because of the preview video last week that like very clearly showed we're getting a new Snick rot I hope I hope all of his rules stay of like we get to have the fun with it yeah so I I do think oryx probably a slight buff but all right let's uh do a towel quickie here okay so Tau sorry guys especially if you play Far Side enclaves they hate you I'm sorry guys like Crisis up another five points a model Commander's up for 10 points a model each uh because you only have one Detachment farsight enclaves is capped at two commanders just like everybody else because they can all pay a CP to be Far Side enclaves because you can get a second of a rule of one unit in an attachment that's their defining characteristic special thing isn't one additional it's if a rule limits you to one you you may take too so Fireside limits you to two it can't use the rule to get a third so far farsight enclaves could really use an FAQ change now crisis suits costing more I'm kind of behind because you don't have to run crude anymore to fill out a Detachment right okay and that's basically why anyone rank root it is kind of funny that they're like they made it so they're not required anymore and also they cost more points why [ __ ] crew people must have been 3D printing them or something and they're mad hahaha towel for the most part is is okay minor issues though I'd argue it was in the correct direction in towel but it upset people that it was at all and then it's rough yeah I I think Tao in general mostly got a minor Nerf to compensate for the new Detachment being good for everyone but Far Side enclaves but Far Side enclaves kind of got [ __ ] on I suppose it's time to hit the final two so let's talk about nids first you got nerfed everyone else is getting free and discounted options they made yours cost points Checkmate correct me yeah I mean like they did get hit pretty hard a bunch of things are up points options cost points you were the top faction it's kind of crappy that you get hit from every angle like if you were thinking about using a unit it got hit um but at the same time you were top dog we knew what was happening I I can't say there's much surprise here Zone throws up [ __ ] 20 points a model so my God you'll still run three of them because you kind of have to they're so good but then you'll never run more than three nudes gotta hit and it wasn't really a shock that's what happens when you're Top Dog even with the changes and the the point changes nizz is still gonna be fine there's gonna be some changes that they need to figure out but I see no reason that they won't still be good on the other side of things Jean Steelers did they get forgotten again no this is the first first time GW remembered them they went two whole point changes being forgotten yeah I mean it looks like they got a bunch of Point decreases their hqs are super limited on how they can be run so the point decreases can't be like abused there in any way the kit stuff on neophytes and acolytes I don't know the army that well but I know people were pretty hyped about them yeah it followed where like a lot of the War gear is cheaper it seems like it could be good yeah the big thing for me is abern's going down because again it's the part of Gene Steelers that calls to me but then this is the one that I told you about when they came out where I was like I kind of like this one section of their army but here's the problem I describe an aberrant and then I describe grotesques and I describe the biophages and then I describe homunculus and then you realize that it's just covens in a different Army yeah I mean I'm I'm with you it's it's nice to see Everett's prominence down jackals are up three points that's the only list that Gene Steeler Cults ever saw success with was spamming them it was like take Max legal amount of jackals which I guess like with the new Detachment and stuff like that maybe they're scared it's kind of plus minus because like they were spamming the Min Loadout if you want to play them where they can actually like attack in combat and be pretty good as little harassers like a lot of other armies fast attack equivalent things you can give them power weapons for free now which is just how it used to be Point wise you lose nothing compared to how they used to be essentially okay so if you're playing them that way they're a wash if you're playing them the abusive men load outweigh they're more expensive okay I mean that makes sense then I know the big one when I was reading up on what Gene Steeler call players were excited about everyone's very happy to call icons correctly are like 10 points down because they were insanely expensive even though it's just is that GW really overvalues reanimation yeah and I I get it to a point but like there's a certain aspect of like it's so bad why does it even exist that wraps up every faction we made it to the End Eric we did make it to the end this has been a pretty long record I mean it's a hot takes but yeah I mean I'm dude I'm excited for the changes yeah I I summed it up 15 times now I have mostly positive but everything has that taint of problems but overall pretty happy thanks for sticking around if you enjoyed this uh I'm very happy to hear that if you like our stuff do the YouTube pleasantries a lot of work probably had to go into this after we hit stop here in a few minutes so thank the editors for us and thanks to our patrons for keeping this show running and paying the editors because we couldn't afford it alone that's it everyone play that music and get us side of here [Music]

Channel: Poorhammer

Views: 90,233

Keywords: 40k, Warhammer 40k, Warhammer, Factions, Codex, Necrons, Space Marines, Tyranids, Daemons, Votann, Arks of Omen, Hot Takes, Balance Dataslate, Update, Points

Id: pyg0caa9BPc

Length: 96min 56sec (5816 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 11 2023