#ZeeJLF2017: The Colour of Money

you have just say good afternoon back okay I am the moderator for this session not soil s so all of you have to listen to me not to any of the other men on this panel typical feminist thing on this happy note ladies and gentlemen let me introduce you all to my eclectic panel Ashwin sangi with 13 steps to bloody good wealth on my immediate left recasting India by hindol sen Gupta who's an editor at large at Forbes are you still at Fortune are you still with them I am okay the unmentionable soale Sate right in the middle have you ever written a book I've written lots of stories they sold lots of stories Beno Chri Nepal's perhaps Nepal's one of Nepal's richest men and on the Forbes list of billionaires welcome to India and remember even after demonetization he's still the richest man in Nepal and Sanjay Agarwal I'm not sure you've written a book but Sanjay is the owner of a bank called the small Finance Bank am I the Au small Finance bank so all of you who don't cannot withdraw money from the ATMs you know where you when where you have to go okay ladies and gentlemen our panel this afternoon is called The Color of Money 50 Shades of Gray or any other color that you can think of across the Spectrum and I'd like to just start by by saying that until so in if you can just look at India and divide India into three phases the first until 1991 called by many economists and and some of these panelists a sluggish slumbering elephant an who responded only to the Hindu rate rate of growth after 91 the Manan Singh era begins Nimar atal bihari vaj where you have the animal spirits of the Indian economy are Unleashed and you know whatever animal you'd like to to think of whether it's the tiger burning bright or or others and then stage three after November 8th the Narendra Modi LED demonetization or note Bundi I'm wondering what animal you'd like to ascribe that to so first first comments what animal do you do you think the notebandi or Manmohan Singh sorry Narendra modi's demonetization should be called all of you please think of your opening comments okay not sorry go ahead uh I think uh the demoralization is one of the only populist measure you know and uh for me uh I think there would be more better way to do this cashless transaction or whatever way and uh so very well I think the thought through was very bad and and the implementation was even worse okay bod your comments the rupees legal tender in Nepal what do you think of the demon demonetization well thankfully uh in our country there is money has only one color you know there is nothing called Black or White we are bordering with India as you all know 1800 long so we do trade in Indian currency we've seen the hardship that the people are going through whether I mean how far this will continue is anybody's guess I would say that it is many of you may not like it may it is it was needed at some point of time but whether the government RBI was best prepared and it was done in the right manner is a huge issue soill what do you think about what you're not paying attention young man no because everyone has spoken on anything but your question what's your question so my question is what is your view on the Narendra Modi LED demonetization drive and do you think that this constitutes stage three in uh India's economy in the unleashing of the animal spirits what is your view I don't know about Animal Spirits because I'm used to the other kind of spirits but I have to say this that I'm a deep deep advocate of demonetization I think Narendra Modi has done a splendid job we needed to get black money out of the system we needed people uh some of whom are journalists other than you who also had black money to be weed out and I'm glad people have gone through pain Because unless you go through pain you don't realize how you've illegally gained so I think Narendra Modi his people have done a splendid job a everyone says it could have been managed better you could have married better you could have had better children you could have gone to a better school there is no such thing as better in India you can't manage things when you have 1.2 billion people I think they did what they had to do of course it could have been better it was not perfect there's no such thing as Perfection okay and I don't want to ascribe any animal spirit I think India at its growth levels is continuing to be the world's fastest growing economy to help with the IMF and the the other Journeys and I think it's a great place to be in thank you since you asked about animals I think and since Nicholas nasam talb was at this Festival I think it's a classic black sworn event you know everybody who's read the book and understands the concept it's something that was unforeseen and you know economies need these shocks to you know Revitalize themselves or cleanse themselves there has been pain I mean there is no doubt that there has been pain this sort of this sort of shock and there's one point that I want to make in spite of all the columnists who's written you know all these articles about this there hasn't been any real Mass protest on the ground now we have to consider why that is true and I collectively all of us needs to consider I just want to make one more point about a phrase that you used and I've mentioned this in many of my lectures but this is a great Podium for me to put a dissenting note to that phrase this phrase called Hindu rate of growth it's the most utter that I've ever heard in my life there was nothing Hindu about the rate of growth if it is truly Hindu rate of growth after 1991 we Remain the population of Hindus in this country remained the same we showed that we can grow at the fastest Pace ever so there was nothing there was one silly you know Economist who came up with this weird phrase I don't want to name names name him yeah name him forget it no no no anyway whatever so I mean it's ridiculous that we've accepted this phrase it's a it's a stupid phrase we should not accept it okay there are young children in this audience so I'd like you to moderate your language sure sure but I mean it is a stupid phrase anyway you know okay so black swor event you think the the the pain was worth it Ash uh since you mentioned animal let me again just take off from there I I think it was probably a monkey uh and uh the the reason I'm mentioning that is because uh uh if we look at Hanuman ultimately when he wanted to set Lanka on fire he first had to burn his tail so I mean that's the way at least I see it that there's been a lot of pain in order for some game so if Hanuman needs to burn his taale to achieve um the the goods in Lanka would you say that that this phase that we're going through even though you believe that there is very little protest on the ground and soale has just rubbished IMF projections of the economy um doing uh sort of losing 1% of GDP would you say that so how long is this going to take do you think and you know we're not going to go into the elections that are around the corner and whether the people of India or at least middle India are going to vote against or in favor of uh Mr modi's drive but are you saying that this is that that this is worth it in the end I I think it's an excellent question I didn't rubbish IMF I said IMF is known to get their data wrong as even India today your former organization is reported on many an occasion there are three things that we must be cognizant of here there will be short-term acute pain especially amongst the working classes who were thriving or perhaps existing on a cash driven economy I don't only refer to the workers in a bavari or I don't refer to workers only in Aur but even if you look at the Tea Gardens there is short-term pain number two when an economy recalibrates itself in the manner in which currency is transacted there is an economic cost that you pay in the short term but the gains in the long term are manifold so how long is longterm I would say since I you know deal with Brands and marketing and chairman and cosos I would say at least two quarters including November including well October November December but November December the Fallout will be in Jan Feb March I would say until around September having said that Joi and I I don't want to get into this argument about you know did all the money come back blah blah blah what has happened is 3 and a half lakh crores which was not part of the accountable economy is today part of the accountable economy to my mind that's a great step forward I'm not interested in whether black white and finally I will say as a taxpaying citizen I'm delighted that people are being raided I want people to be arrested and I want people to be locked up because these people were evading taxes these people were running a parallel economy they were funding Terror in some parts funding whatever in other parts I think it was worth it and I'm delighted we've had the courage as a 1.28 billion people to take this pain for the sake of the larger National CA so this approval of class Warfare that soil has just given us would you say ashin that U you know you're talking about making money uh the 13 steps that you talk about in your book and I'm just trying to connect all your books now to the debates uh that we're all uh part of would you say that in the next eight or nine months or the two or three quarters that you can still make good money in India oh absolutely I would agree 100% with what soel just said the the the fact of the matter is that the moment one is talking about wealth creation and frankly I'm there are many better people to answer this uh on at this panel uh particularly the ones who actually made wealth or created wealth but from my perspective based on what I have understood uh I think uh it was the one the the Nobel uh prize winning Economist Samuelson who said that uh creating wealth is like watching paint dry or watching grass grow in other words it's a very very long-term process and so to that extent this in the final scheme of things will count as a blip MH it will count as a blip uh having said that obviously the immediate effect is uh on on several people uh and it's probably a little easier for us to sit here on stage and say well you know it's it's it's a perfect step there are lots of issues uh but I think I think net net you can't ever have a decision in this country which is always going to have uh you know there's nothing like a perfect balance sheet okay there will always be pros and cons hindol yeah I'm actually coming to you hindol and in your book you write about over the last 25 or 26 years now since the economic reform was Unleashed in the early 90s that India has that there is a middle India of entrepreneurs that has emerged right and but you've also said that that this economic reform process has created islands of California in the middle of subsaharan Africa so now this iniquitous wealth that we see in our country yeah yeah so that's of course am and phrase Omen and JRE wrote about this uh my larger point in the book and in this debate is two things yeah number one just to connect to what both of them were saying we cannot forget that two of the main problem areas of India and I was astonished even as a you know veteran journalist to see that the Ina which we were being told is being Unleashed in Kashmir suddenly vanished you know it was the miraculous Vanishing of the no I don't agree with that you cannot link the father with demonetization different things have happened no one second one second one second there there is no doubt now whether you want to call it inter father whatever you want to call it there is no doubt that the protest in Kashmir quote unquote the Protestant Kashmir really bettered down once this demonetization happened that has been extensively written about that's one view that's one that's one number two again widely reported the lack of quote unquote or the stopping of naxal activity in central India without question came down extensively again widely reported what has happened in the last 25 years is this we were always an entrepreneurial Nation I mentioned this in my book you look at the wide span of Indian history 5,000 years we were always an entrepreneurial Nation this socialist bit is going to be a blip in our history we are going back to being socialist bit the post Independence the Post Independent socialist blip is going to be a blip in our history if you look at the large span of Indian history we were an entrepreneurial Nation we are going back to being an entrepreneurial Nation chandran Prasad the great dalit Economist who I mentioned in my book has done extensive research with dhh Kapur again I mentioned in my book about the impact of Li economic liberalization on dalit communities in utar Pradesh how the entire cast system the one of the biggest and Chandra ban Prasad argues which I mentioned that one of the best ways to fight cast discrimination is by using the power of the markets right so I think that momentum is is completely sweeping this country and if if as we hear and I'm sure you have heard too that the next thing that the government is probably going to do is the entire bami property thing extremely welcome if it happens extremely welcome if it happens the entire NCR economy is a black economy largely fueled by illegal real estate if we can get a benami real EST property the public policy going it would be extremely welcome so this is Delhi coming to japur he's hindol some of you may know and some of you may not the NCR refers to the national capital region around Delhi but it doesn't extend to jaur certainly doesn't extend to Chennai or TY anantapuram but bod to come back to to you now Nepal and India like you said in your opening have an open border an 800 800 18800 kilm long open border where the rupee is legal tender it's perhaps the only nation in South Asia where the rupe is legal tender uh you are dealing with this crisis but my question to you is is slightly different so apart from the fact that you're a self-made billionaire I also want to ask you as a as a citizen of Nepal would you say that what happens in you know we are a very inward looking people and even this debate sort of shows that we're so focused on what's happening within India but how how does it play out in in a neighboring country like Nepal well uh before I come back to this question just two short comments on the previous two questions you asked I'm tempted to answer you know I'm a great supporter of demonetization I've said in the beginning however let's not forget get that overnight 83% of the currencies vanished from the market we're still paying a price the market suddenly people had no money in Nepal no I mean in all b l 1800 kilometers is what forms More than 70% of the Border okay I mean 70% of the country's population that's the most populous lowland the taray of Nepal but more importantly you know to bring the attempt the core ethos of demonetization is to wipe out the so-called black money and bring the system into the formal part of the economy if I'm not mistaken even in India less than 50% of the people have access to Banks okay okay or even post office so this is a journey which is going to be extremely painful but in the end India will win there will be far larger investment but will Nepal win interest rates will come down will Nepal win if when India wins when it snows Joy when it snows in India we get the cold Fe fever so don't worry I mean we are you know there are leave leave aside the political boundaries the south Asia is so closely integrated with India particularly when you talk of the bordering Nations like Nepal you know we have our 80% of the trade and Investments are with are with India Okay so I think the Indian we are anything that happens in India which is positive is going to have a positive Fallout on Nepal we are anxiously looking forward to Indian interest rates coming down okay taxes coming down we have a fair amount of presence in India now at least for our own for our well-known YY brand you know we produce all over India we like that to grow so we will win in the end India will win I'm glad you say that but the pain is going it's going to be extremely painful for quite much longer than what my friend soel mentioned here so much longer than two or three quarters but I'd like to I'd like all of you to Now respond to this connection that Beno talks about between India and the rest of South Asia bod you have a lot of business in the Maldives in um in Sri Lanka of course you the the Taj group in in Columbo in Mali you have a couple of islands uh hotel resorts and in the Maldives Ashwin soil I I just want you to answer this this connected question about India and the neighborhood in terms of wealth creation do you think that we should have free borders for the movement of goods and people's for example the movement of goods what do you think Ashwin well frankly I think this is a time when there is almost a certain sense I sense a certain amount of fear which has been created by demonetization and I would simply say that probably we need to take a leaf out of Warren Buffett's book who said that it's time to be greedy when others are fearful and it's time to be fearful when others are greedy so probably when you see a lot of fear around you that's probably the moment when there are opportunities waiting whether it's within India or whether it's the bordering countries of India whether it's in terms of that entire Global engine uh so I would simply say that listen at the end of the day this is an opportunity more than a threat okay what about you sanay do you do you want to expand your business um you know expand your Banks or whatever else that you know you do in in the money-making business to to other neighborhood yeah so we are governed by RBI so as a moment we are not allowed to go out of India but you know I would just want to answer the previous two questions where you know we're talking about the benefits of demoralization for a longer term but my own own perception is this when money comes back you know maybe 80% 90% time you know which may been February or March you know then what happened you know people will take the money out from the system and again the cash economy will be there right so how you stopping that you know so my my own point of view is this the government has to put the infra fast they have to put because it's easy to say in jaur or Bombay or Delhi all about the debit card and ATM card card but you know I work in the ruler belts you know where even the Posh machines are not there connect is not there not what is your so tell us a little bit about your experience with working in in rural India yeah so rural areas what happened because those customers have the cash only right they deal in cash is not a black money honestly it's a they because they have been developed like this that they have to pay in cash they have to take in cash and banking is so pathetic you know pathetic because it's open at 11: close down at 2:00 right how can you Dependable on that system and infra is not there infrastructure yeah infra means there's no Posh machine there is no connectivity there is no education half of the people are illiterate you right they even understand what is 500 what is th000 rupees right so we need to go back you know and see that whether the government would have done more in infra first put on the like you know what SEI has done over the years in 20 years to convert the Sha Market one of the best Market in India that I think the cash economy will only go away when we have a good infra good good system of contivity good system of people who can take this Authority you know now what your note of caution is is is a good one in this debate but soil just to come back to the question of connectivity across borders do you think that India and the other countries in South Asia we should should we have open borders where you can have free movement of of trade of Labor which is is peoples uh and people making money across the region see trade as a fundamental concept is based on mutuality of benefit that's the fundamental concept of trade so if we have an open border with Sri Lanka are we going to open our trade positions even on areas like tea which we need to kind of protect uh many years ago diling was registered by Sri Lankan brand diling T so there are trade Mark issues but I want to touch a larger question and taking off from what Mr Agarwal said it is incorrect to believe that demonetization and if the government has communicated that they have not done the right thing there is no economy in the world which is bereft of cash but there are economies in the world which are bereft of illegally gained wealth which you don't declare and evade taxes on but what's the what's the point What's the problem with me or my mother or my mother-in-law keeping a few thousand rupees stashed under my mattress problem not at all you can stash it where you want as long as it's legal as long as it's legal absolutely my my argument JY very simply is yes in urban towns in India there is not that much of a problem with connectivity you go 30 40 60 km out of urban centers there is a problem but the government is willing to address that you know the problem with us is we have become almost like mam banery we have a problem for every solution in India so we've got to give ourselves some time it's not going to happen overnight having said that the issue that you raised twofold about trade borders collapsing they will collapse on the strength of Market factors determining their collapse like we saw in EU but even EU has huge restrictions within I mean that's why you had mandelson perform the role he did as the EU trade commissioner the second is I'm a great believer not in just my country from a patriotic or a jingoistic or a nationalistic sense I'm a great believer that the young in this country have begun to re-engage with the politics of our country and they believe that we are ready for transparency and ethics if that continues we are doing well so I just want to make wish one small point about this across borders because I I happen to be one of the few people who's not only spoken to B Chri the richest man in Nepal and the biggest businessman in Nepal but also Mia Muhammad mansha who I spent a lot of time with the biggest businessman in Pakistan by far you know their biggest wealthiest person and their biggest businessman and there's one thing common between M Muhammad mansha and Bot Chri it's their consistent efforts within their country to engage with their own country's political systems to push for this idea of a South Asian free trade zone this is consistently happening however however and you will understand this obviously only too well there are very significant security concerns that India has so the question here is that should security concerns which are legitimate which several of which are legitimate but because India is this huge nation in the middle of huge country in the middle of his nation and therefore all of us talk about greater responsibilities would you as a Nepali bod I'd like to just come back to this question and perhaps then we can move to some other one is that do you you think as a Nepali India has greater responsibilities in promoting free trade or not free trade but the movement of trade and peoples across the region absolutely you know I I must say and uh thank you indol you know I've been personally working when I was the president of the fcci the CI etc etc to create a vibrant South Asian economic Jone so to speak and it hurts it pains to see that we are probably the world's poorest economic Community block so why isn't it happen it is purely it's it's it's you know this it's it's a long story there is Pakistan is one certainly one angle and the whole premise of the Sark South Asian Association is consensus decision making so it has it has not moved an inch you know while there have been economies who have integrated asan look at asan where asan is reached India as an economic Powerhouse and world's third largest economy in the making by 2025 certainly has the responsibility to pull up the South Asian neighbors not only by opening the borders would you say including Pakistan well Pakistan is a different story I would like to get into that if it's difficult and it is difficult to find a solution leave Pakistan out but why why should I why I should I as a nepales suffer okay because of apprehensions or relationship issues between Pakistan and India to deal with Sri Lanka or with Bangladesh there is a chicken neck next door to my country okay in the northern North Bengal which goes to Bangladesh we've never been able to have free access to Bangladesh we cannot we cannot export our Goods to lore I have to go through Dubai whereas it'll be very easy for me to go through waga B MH so I think you have to appreciate that to have disgruntled neighbors all around I think one thing India has failed in doing you know with and this is my humble submission doesn't point out to any particular government the present or I'm talking about over the years is not managing the South South Asian relationship you all South Asian neighbors are disgruntled unhappy there is political chaos in all these countries and most of these countries whenever a government Falls or whenever a government gets formed India's name comes in and you know that okay so just to come back to the book it's like our buildings no one is fond of their neighbor it's it's like say that again it's like what it's in apartment blocks no one you're not fond of your neighbor are you that depends there you are anyway so yeah we got to change that you know we got to change that and we are very hopeful that with the uh transparency that is going to come as a consequence of the demonetization probably many of these apprehensions will vanish slowly security concern are legitimate but no way by literally you know keeping the economy development of the neighbors hostage you'll be able to address that I think you'll be able to address that better by having a happy happy neighbor who also believes in protecting the Indian interest okay so just to return to the books that uh that you guys have written and Ashwin you write in your books and one of the 13 steps that that you talk about is um and and I like this phrase it says what's your hustle so what's your hustle Ashwin well I mean of course I you know it's there is the old proverb which says that those who can do and those who can't teach so I've been teaching through this book uh because probably I wasn't very successful at implementing it myself but I think the point is that I find that the vast majority of people who have actually created wealth are not necessarily people who went after wealth their wealth came as a byproduct almost so give this audience three three tips some who haven't read let me give it to you from uh through my own story that uh I started out my life as a business and uh but my grandfather is the one who introduced me to books and that's probably the reason I became a writer and uh of course he uh you know in my father's place of work there was this munim G uh who used to always see me with a book in my hand and he would say that bookkeeping is much more important than book reading and he said if you must waste your time then waste your time reading a balance sheet why are you reading a book and on the other hand my grandfather would tell me that no that's not the way it is because passion and money are related to one another so he said to my mind you need to have both Lakshmi and Saraswati in your life and when you have both Lakshmi and Saraswati in your life then uh these two daes these two goddesses they tend to actually not be too fond of each other the moment you have Lakshmi coming into the equation Saraswati tends to run away and which is so true no I like the fact that you have both goddesses on both your sides but point is the bigger point is that what he said is that if you see when both these goddesses are sitting together the only thing that can keep them together is Ganesh G okay right because he's always shown pictured in the middle and so I like to joke that probably that explains my physique in some way I was just going to ask does your size have anything to do with it s what about you but I think you need to go after I think you need to go after Saraswati lakmi automatically follows follows great so suil since Size Matters according to Ashwin what's your hustle I'm used to people asking me questions in English but I'll imagine you're asking me what works for me so I'll attempt an answer thank you we were born and raised in Kolkata money was a means never the end and it never should be I think the distinction between wealth and money is wealth is harnessed both for greater good and for personal Glory or personal satisfaction and the creation of wealth to my mind is also Legacy it's also what you leave behind to my mind knowledge is wealth this literature Festival Is wealth money would only be currency to my mind what is wealth is the anecdotes that your grandparents would would would tell you the the love that you share between between yourself and your parents wealth is Indescribable only in a balance sheet term when you start defining wealth across the same par parameters as money you cause the greatest confusion and the biggest mistake for me I think and and there was a brilliant session yesterday with be Debro and Mr Huer on kalidasa I think where this country and thanks to the jaur literature festival and and people like them we are bringing back and we are harnessing the wealth of knowledge the wealth of giving back the wealth of sharing the bookmark the 400 kids who at jaur railway station coming to this Festival to my mind the jaur literature Festival is a harbinger of that wealth that India must celebrate and I've always said the day the fortune magazines of the world and the Forbes banish the rich list and create the give list I would do my hat we need to celebrate people who give back to society so thank you that was beautifully spoken and that sort of brings me to a question about giving about philanthropy and charity what is the difference between the two Ashwin may I come back to you hindol would you like to to say something on that I think this fundamental there's a fundamental thing that we do not understand and we always had in our tradition which we have forgotten correct that anything that we acquire we have forgotten the interrelatedness of things that when you extract and if you want to call it wealth so be it when you extract something from the ecosystem something else must go into the ecosystem basic understanding of even quantum physics teaches you that that everything is interconnected and if you look at Indian philosophy Indian thought Indian culture this thought was predominant there what has happened is these days we see philanthropy also as a hustle to take the word that was coming up K philanthropy somebody you call three reporters two TV channels and you talk about the philanthropy you do that then is the problem that is not the giving that works the giving that really works is the kind of giving you know I've just written a book on Swami Vivekananda let me give you an example of giving that is very dear to me during the research of that book The indan Institute of Science in Bangalore was created after a a journey in a ship where Jamshed G Tata and Swami vianda met each other and for several days had a conversation on what knowledge and science really means after which jamshid G Tata according to himself Swami vivanda told him if you're going to do anything please create an Institute of international caliber that will help us regain that sense of Science and knowledge that we always have had when jamshid Gata created that swam bandh was invited to be the first person to head that of course he refused but that's a great example of how philanthropy should be done not as PR thanks you know I just very quickly I'm sorry to intervene um I started my career as an advertising person with the with the Tartas with tataa steel you've got to understand the philosophy of tataa trusts from time immemorial it's about giving back in four areas education Water Sanitation and urban city smartness but not in the smartness we understand why did Jamshed G Tata want to give back because he believed as hindol said he had taken from the problem in India is we take but we want to give back only to our children the concept of sharing the Legacy with the community has vanished and I can tell you and I say it with deep difference people are willing to spend thousands of rupees on Wine and Food and whatever but the poor of this country as a percentage give more of their wealth back than the rich of this country so when that changes we'll be in a happy place the worst thing is we try and emulate and you know he refer to it it is sad that we invited the Warren buffets of the world to India Manu in manuti 3,800 years ago whatever it was talks about Dan the problem is we forget our own history in order to contemporize our knowledge and think oh we want to be like America America will never be like India because we give because we want to give not because we get tax credits so whether it's Dan or daksha and anyway dsha is a is a different uh word and has a different meanings so Sanjay this this thing about the poor giving a greater fraction of what they earn or what they um of their wealth so now I I just want to compare this with you know hindol has a line in his book about Mukesh Amani's 26 floor house in Mumbai called Antilla I think now how would you compare this so I you do you agree that with soil that the poor give uh you know you work in in rural areas and why and why do they give and um and you know and to and to sel's question is that Indians don't don't give as much as perhaps we used to correct so I think I'm 100% with Su on this because uh poor actually does not start knowing about his wealth know for him it's very natural to help to give his money or you know to share his wealth among his own people because of his upbringing right no but why is it that because they still dependent on each other I no I think it's more of their own uh condition or the living living the way they live the the way they brought themselves up you know like for example in our every case you know in every loan case we need to have a guarant right so we always want to bank upon the the existing customer who who can give the guarantee so he will give the guarantee without any you know getting money back he just give because he know the know the fellow or he's from his same Village or he want that guy to be more successful so I think I'm completely agree with so on that side but you know on the an Amani side or Mukesh Amani side my view this that if the money is legal if the money is white you know you built not only 20 30 40 you built 100 100 100 story building but it has to be legalized you know the challenge with mkes Amani all those people because we as Indian don't think as a system that the money has been earned legally right so so so you feel as long as the money is white it's okay to do whatever you want with it no I think I have the greatest admiration for liberal thinking but he almost made money seem dirty profit a dirty word this socialist hangover is something we must get her off yes if people have made money legally celebrate rather than Envy yes get them to inspire rather than get them to withdraw so why don't we still give that's the question Ashwin and then to you benon why is it that that that Indians you know you talk about Manu and you talk about the our tradition of giving of poor people giving well I I think why don't the rich give well I I think they do give but probably in percentage terms as a percentage of their wealth they obviously don't do enough why not but the reason for that to some extent I don't know I was watching this very interesting sitcom on HBO uh called Silicon Valley and in that there is this billionaire and he is lying face down on the couch and he's wailing he's sobbing like a baby and uh what is the apparent reason because as a result of stock market fluctuations uh he no longer is worth $1 billion but is worth about $968 million uh and of course someone asks him what's the big deal and he says well I'm no longer part of the three comma club uh because that's the the three commas in a billion so the point is sometimes I think it just becomes almost uh the process of earning money and accumulating it almost becomes the end in itself uh uh chanakya and his shastra told us that listen you know wealth is something uh that the way for example you're sitting for a for a Puja you also uh not only offer to the gods but then you also get prashad from the gods so it's almost that it's as sacred as that but somewhere along the way we seem to have lost that okay but you still haven't answered the question why we've lost I think I think I partially did because uh to to my mind it's all about the fact that we are almost using money to keep score or rather than using it as a way to achieve something Beyond it okay can I just give one line answer since he's talking about arastra I want to make two very small points yesterday two Highly Educated you know members of or Indians of Delhi Society told me and it's not their fault don't misunderstand me that they didn't even know that something called the AR shastra even existed no no listen that's not the point no one let me make the point one of the you keep asking why we have forgotten to give because we a d race we've been cut away from everything that we held here that was that's one point hold on a second no one second no no hold on a second you cannot generalize on behalf of the two people that you meet no no no I'm not some Indians may be derated no hind one second sorry there is a country that's fine that's fine they are from Delhi they can be forgiven let's move on okay I think I think I think J my VI yeah we are insecure we are insecure yes because you know people generally because we are just 70 years old country right people haven't seen that kind of wealth they have seen the wealth in last 20 years right so I think people are getting now mature you know if you see 20 years before even this kind of philanthropy was not there right in my opinion next 30 40 years you will see very different India that's that's that's a good point bod last words to you and then we open the house first of all I'll urge that let's get our facts right okay and let's not generalize yeah f to my friend here FES and Fortune they run some of the biggest world's biggest philanthropy P which which recognizes people who are deeply involved and engaged in that okay number one number two people who made their money through the hard ways they are no fools not to realize okay that today people care for those who engage with the society nobody cares how much of money you own how much of money you've made why has Bill Gates given up everything and driving this giv fled Mission all over the world I mean without any disrespect to any other business house why does tata's name comes at the Forefront when it comes to philanthropy in India okay so just the so so what I'm saying people are conscious okay they may not everybody may not like to advertise or talk about it and I think in our part of the world the culture of giving is much more than in the waste if you ask me okay so we don't like to talk about the fact that we give and to who we give I'm going to open up this debate so if anybody'd like to ask a question go ahead no no the the gentlemen there G another minutes uh my question is in a way related to the comment by Ganesh G regarding Ganesh G as s uh there are three types of people in India just ask your question G yeah lakmi Putra Saraswati Putra and DTI Putra two have been taken care of by Narendra Modi G steps and now it's the turn of DTI putas those with the Land part of it uh my query is that generally uh the general tenor is or in the debate or in other sessions also that this person is doing wrong and it gathers a lot of can you just ask your question please coming to the question part only thank the general tener is that we just ridicule the system is wrong this people are taken off care of we are not futuristic looking we are not saying where we are going we should be planning more for the future where does the economy go from here maybe we have taken care of the black is that your question where do economy Go From Here Ashwin I don't is that your question what's the question sir where does the economy go from here where do we go yeah where does the e at 1:5 for lunch okay okay any other questions okay hi uh my question is directed at hindol good going so uh you made a lot of unsubstantiate uh claims today including the things going down in Kashmir or maybe so my question is like uh of no actually I would tell you in nagaland the things got woren if you look at the facts but that's not my question uh my question is regarding the most outrageous uh comment you made that was that uh India was always an entrepreneural Nation yes and that is the way to for Del upliftment so my question is like if you look at chra Prasad says this the economy let him ask the question let him ask the question so I'll complete my question so in the last 2,000 years or maybe 3,000 years of Indian history I'm asking you to give maybe one or probably two instances of a successful delit Enterprise please okay no no one again once again once again one second hold on you I don't know whether you heard what I said I said in my book there is an entire chapter which quotes some of the most prominent dlit economists alive in India today doing extensive research for the last 10 15 years research that has been published not only in epw but in University of Pennsylvania and around the world which shows that in the last 25 years because of economic liberalization cast has the the worst excesses of cast in places many places and pockets of States like utar Pradesh has really come down I urge you to look at that research I have named places where you can find that research sear please look at it then come back and ask me a question okay so that's a good question uh to the to the young boy um that's a good question about theit entrepreneurs and in one of the books that these gentlemen have written there is um there is this uh description of kalpa morara right I don't know if which yeah now she is a dalit and she is a very well-known wealth Creator kalp s kalp s I'm sorry she's a she's a very well-known wealth Creator so her example is actually quite uplifting and many many others I mean several others yes the lady here I think she wanted to ask a question g a lot of you have spoken about uh our culture having been one of giving would you then say that with the Advent of capitalism and the celebration of the market economy one of you mentioned we like to see the numbers tarting up that that could be the cause of reduced giving no would you want to answer that no no but what is the question the question is the question is keeping score keeping score and uh the Advent of the market economy leading to less of sharing because you're basically wanting to T up your accounts and see them grow like the example of those minus three commas and depression ET you give less so what's the question so the question is do you give less now now that you started now you're allowed to make more money I don't think so I don't think so I and I I don't think there's a univers universality about that rule it is uh incorrect to assume because you need Capital to run your businesses you will ignore what I would call the Social or the moral compass uh within your ecosystem bod referred to it I've actually written about this for policy uh papers especially when we were doing the CSR thing and I was personally against the 2% uh tax which the government mandates because it made a lot of companies accountable to their shareholders and forced to bring down their spends when they could easily afford to spend more I don't think it's it's apples for apples there are companies which continue to diversify their portol and I'll say one last thing and this is why I think the imprint of the tatas is is the most definitive when you build schools and hospitals around a steel plant you have to because your workers need them your vendors need them blah blah blah it is when you go beyond business and do stuff that has nothing to do with your immediate ecosystem is when true philanthropy takes place so I'm much happier with the Tata Medical Center which is a cancer facility in Kolkata catering to the entire East including the Northeast rather than just the hos Hospital the tataa main hospital in jamshedpur I think that distinction we need to bear in can I add yes absolutely uh I think there is fundamentally in our country We There is you know we we excel in dualities uh there is this wonderful Udu share and obviously every share has to have two sentences the first goes and the second sentence that immediately follows so the point is that that Duality will always exist and and that's the very nature of India so you will see a lot of giving happening but you will also see a lot of hoing happening which is probably the case in every society okay the in this may I chip in sure you know I think there is we are all giving too much of emphasis to money you know you can find and particularly now you can find huge uh people huge amount of entrepreneurs with no money made it really big within the shortest possible time today is the the age of ideas it's about ideas it's about I mean you know the whole business of disruption that we all keep talking about startups that we talk about I mean you know I mean I see a lot of young faces here I mean the times are changing the largest hotel company in this world doesn't own one hotel room the largest taxi company in the world doesn't own one taxi okay it's about Connecting People okay somewhere someone was standing and he found he didn't find the cab and he said look my God you know I mean there may be somebody next door and who who's passing this way and if I if there was a way to communicate that's a good point that's a good point since we're talking about young people there's a man in a green sweater at the back yeah go ahead sure just ask your question they can't okay okay just wait for the M good morning sir sir don't you think the inefficiency of the government often compels people to aade tax and that is the primary reason for tax evasion you know I have to say this that's your question this is the most commonly heard excuse in our country avoid taxes because where is our money used if everyone starts behaving like you we'll have nothing to spend on so I think it is a it is a very factious and dangerous argument it is actually the fundamentals of a weird kind of civil unrest we need to improve efficiencies we need to compel governments to become accountable we don't need to become illegal or convic or corrupt and then justify it by saying oh the government is inefficient that's why I want to evade tax I think it's a very very dangerous argument okay last two questions the the gentleman and the striped M Muffler and the bald gentleman yeah okay he can okay you can ask I mean not bald but you know let this guy you you get the last one yeah go ahead d i this is a land of Dharma so I agree with Mr Chri when he said that there is a lot of giving without people telling there is a temple not too far from here where there's a free food for everybody okay could you just ask your question ask question ask the question the gentlemen other gentlemen there said no I'm sorry I'm not going to let you no no no you have to ask your question the question is yes should the Civil governance be allowing the tax breaks that you mentioned fostering that so that the more giving happens because there are lots and lots of people who are giving but more people will be encouraged to give if the Civil governance allows that structure you can ask just give the mic to this young man you can ask your question too uh good noon uh my question is to Mr vinod Chri yeah I just want to ask about when we are talking about the good Pari and all that stuff now the CPAC is there and we have the sck since 1986 87 now sofa is never been a reality now CPAC in China do you see that sofa will be our a realy in future okay s is too little too late it has lost its relevance okay no the comparison with China the comparison with China is the question well India had chosen to deal with each of the neighboring countries without promoting a community the whole Sark structure that's fine likewise China has taken that as an opportunity okay China is far more aggressive today in most of the South Asian economies it sometimes worries okay so I think uh there is a lot of thinking deep thinking that needs to go okay last question go ahead I think that that gentleman's question never got answered Su sir managed essential just the last question on civil governance do you want to take that hind one example which is he has a point in one aspect which most of us understand which is philanthropy in art our regulations are so bad that not enough private money is going into funding art in India because of government regulations so there's a point there thank you uh ladies and gentlemen and thank you all to all my participants excellent moderated and S thank you so much

Channel: Jaipur Literature Festival

Views: 6,365

Keywords: Zee, ZeeJLF, JLF, Jlf2017, Jaipur Literature Festival, Festival, Literature, Litfest, JaipurLitFest, books, Jaipur, ZeeJLF2017

Id: 2rLUR4pH5X0

Length: 57min 17sec (3437 seconds)

Published: Mon Jan 23 2017