Hello, my name is Mike Morris I'm one of the co-directors at Writing on the Wall an arts organisation and festival based in Liverpool I'd like to welcome you all to WOWFest Lockdown - our 20th annual and first-ever online festival. Which runs throughout May Tomorrow at 3 o'clock We've got Life of Grime - a showcase of a work of a new generation of spoken word poets Rappers and grime artists . At 6 o'clock tomorrow in partnership with La Violette Società: we present A Barely Believable Bout of Beautiful Avoidance - a night of poetry storytelling from one of the gems of the liberal arts scene. Future guests include Nikesh Shukla, Rosie Jones, Stuart Maconie, Sharna Jackson, Phil Scraton Francesca Martinez, Levi Tafari and to end the festival a Special call to the arts from the former Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn All events are free but donations are welcome and they'll be split between Fans Supporting Food Banks, the South Liverpool Domestic Abuse Services and Writing on the Wall Tonight, we have a very special guest who first appeared at WoWFest back in 2003 Noam Chomsky's interests writings Academic work and activism are wide-ranging He's written over 100 books, is regarded as the father of modern linguistics was voted in 2005 as the world's leading public intellectual and in 2011 was the most cited academic in the world Booker Prize winner and activist Arundhati Roy called him one of the greatest, most radical public thinkers of our time He was in the news again this week when speaking at a launch of the Progressive International Which aims to unite progressive forces around the world Noam Chomsky said that Donald Trump was culpable in the deaths of Americans due to the coronavirus With the rise in populist governments and the antics of Donald Trump and as the U.S. Remains the dominant global power We feel there's no one better place to shed some light on the current situation If you have any questions, please post them in the comments box and we'll aim to get through as many of them as possible When we contacted Noam to appear at WoWFest Lockdown He said that he'd been turning down hundreds of requests for interviews and appearances but felt that this one was special and Therefore it is with a great sense of pride That I welcome Noam Chomsky to WoWFest Lockdown to present 'A Letter from America' Do I exist? t I can't tell You exist? Hello. Noam okay, so I'm very pleased to More or less be with you. I Wish it was in person. Of course, that's quite different. But this is the world in which we live I'd like to begin by saying a few words about current crises if there's time we could move on to broader issues that are taking shape will remain Will have to be dealt with even after we overcome the current critical circumstances Right now, of course Attention is very naturally focused on the pandemic. It's very serious costs will be severe but there's a Few things to remember about it. We will recover a terrible cost How serious a cost depends on how governments react Need not be as serious as it is in Countries like the yours and mine which are particularly bad Others much better, but we will recover Butt we're not going to recover from other things that are happening right now so as we speak the Polar ice caps are melting The melting is accelerating Nobody's exactly certain how it'll work, but it could be that within decades Much of the world will simply start becoming uninhabitable the, one of the latest scientific studies predicted that - this is the first study to carefully investigate human habitation over the millennia That's in a pretty narrow band of the world surface where the temperatures are Relatively moderate - that's changing visibly. In fact, the prediction of this study is that If we honor our current course in about 50 years much of the World, much of the world in which people now live, will become uninhabitable South Asia, Middle East, large parts of Africa large sections of China parts of the United States and major changes everywhere else -
organized human life will probably collapse or Turn into some form which we can scarcely imagine the melting of the ice caps, it carries with it the threat of a very significant rise in sea level - We take a longer view, we're now approaching the warming of the global heat of about 125,000 years ago And we're of course approaching it much more rapidly than at that time which has consequences that aren't understood. But at that time the The oceans were about six to nine meters Higher than they are today You can't even imagine a world like that So that's happening while we speak other things as well. Now the threat of nuclear war is being escalated It's very severe It's getting worse. In the next couple of months may get much worse - if there's time, I could talk about that So that's in the background. You should not forget it, while we're focusing on the pandemic that Now, quite naturally, occupies attention. So let's take a look at the pandemic First thing to bear in mind is that After it is mitigated and declined it will very likely Recur.A few years down the road, there'll probably be another one. That's the prediction of Scientists who've been studying these things for years. It's Overwhelming consensus on this. So if we want to prevent the next pandemic we have to start now and It's known what we should do to start now, if we don't do it, there'll be another one more severe than this one because the effects will be Exacerbated by global warming. So how do we figure out what to do? It's not Quantum physics We ask how did this one come about? Obvious question. Well, let's take a look - go back to 2003 when there was another major coronavirus epidemic SARS epidemic Coronavirus very similar to this one, but that one, fortunately, was contained, barely At that point scientists warned right away that other Likely, coronavirus pandemics are coming Here's what we have to do to deal with it - work on explore the nature of corona viruses And work on the background for vaccines and treatments and so on; if we do that we'll be in shape, in shape when the next ... when the next one comes well, it's not enough to have the knowledge - somebody has to pick up the ball and run with it Who could do it? Well the most obvious Candidate is the huge pharmaceutical corporations they've got profits overflowing thanks to the neoliberal programmes, the so-called free trade agreements, which are in fact very remote from free trades and have highly protectionist elements designed to provide essentially monopoly pricing rights to major corporations Drug corporations and media corporations and others, so the drug companies are given exorbitant patents Way beyond anything that existed in the past? If they had existed in earlier years the ...England the United States, other countries would never have developed but Now they're there to make sure that the major corporations are overflowing with profits So they have plenty of funds They have laboratories. They have resources. They could have gotten the work right away and Prevented this pandemic, but there's a barrier The barrier has a simple name. It's called capitalism the drug corporations respond to market signals How can you make profit? Ok, you can't make profit by working on preventing a catastrophe that'll come down the road in several years and if you have a vaccine Doesn't amount to much anyway something that people take once, maybe the next year, but you don't make a lot of profit on What you want to do is other things - drugs that people are constantly using That rich people use so they can pay for them. That's where profit is. So they're out Drug companies couldn't do it Can anybody else pick up the ball? Well in principle, yes there's something called government. If you look at the history of development of vaccines drugs so on That's... almost all the serious work is done under the public funding in the public sector. I won't go through the details, but most vaccines They may be finally marketed by private corporations, but the basic research is typically difficult creative work - it's almost always done in government institutions That then hand it over to private corporations to modify for marketing and profits so the government could easily take over. In the United States the National Institute of Health has very sophisticated labs; there were research laboratories in universities - the University where I spent most of my life - MIT has wonderful laboratories. The drug companies know it Take MIT or any other big research institution - take a look at the buildings around it. The buildings around it are Pfizer Novartis Genetic engineering corporations. Why are they there? Basically to ripoff research that's done under public funding at the research institutions Like MIT So the government could easily take over but there's a barrier In England, it's called Thatcher in the United States, It's called Reagan It's 40 years of a savage version of capitalism Neoliberalism, it's called magnified in the UK and the continent by austerity programs which had no economic basis, but Were derivatives of the neoliberal savagery. And the this particular savage form of capitalism has a principle It was in fact enunciated by Thatcher and Reagan right at the beginning in Reagan's words Government is the problem not the solution Translated into English, that means that Decisions should be taken out of the hands of government which has a flaw it's Partially at least - under public influence. So we overcome that flaw and transfer decisions, planning to private tyrannies Huge Business Corporations Tyrannies, basically, which are unaccountable to the public - so we transfer decisions over to them but that's called... That's the meaning of Government is the problem not the solution So government is ruled out That leaves nobody So we're left unprepared. Then comes the question of how... individual governments respond. That varies quite a lot so Take the United States... they're the most important country in the world - by far the most powerful Europe just follows behind it, whether it likes it or not, What happened in the United States? Well... first came the Obama years Obama made some slight efforts to try to do something. So it was known that there's a shortage of ventilators - now it's a severe crisis, but it was pretty common knowledge in the healthcare circles. So Obama did Contract with a small company in California that was producing the high-quality, low-cost ventilators The company that was bought up by a bigger company to standard property of neoliberalism's leading to an virtual monopolization in sector after sector of the economy The big fish swallow the small fish. That's the way it works under Savage capitalism with no antitrust regulations. So this small company was bought up by a bigger... a bigger company - Covidien - which makes High-quality ventilators, but very high cost So the first thing they did of course was put the small company out of business Now they don't want competition from low-cost ventilators - so that one's done. Now, there were a couple of other efforts and for example The United States at the time - it did have programs ... government programs which were working with Chinese scientists to try to determine the nature of coronaviruses . Most coronaviruses come from bats - a bat may bite a mammal the mammal gets in touch with The human then it's transferred and it happens that there's a huge concentration of bats the deep in caves around the Wuhan, the region in China So there are Chinese scientists who were venturing into these caves. It's quite dangerous some have died collecting coronaviruses the Wuhan Institute of Virology is the main center for the virus... for coronavirus research and there were American scientists working with them Carrying out programs they had collected thousands of Coronaviruses to try to determine which ones could be harmful what you could do about them. So what was done with that? Donald Trump came into office - the program was cancelled Okay We don't want to waste money on that ... businesses don't make any money out of that The Trump administration is.. has one major constituency extreme wealth - corporate power That's its prime Constituency. For the Republican Party generally, that's true. But with Trump, that's extreme. He does wave some populist banners and rhetorics, but that's for show You look at the programs, the legislative programs it's Every single one is devoted to that. So he canceled the program ... of working with Chinese scientists We know - it means we know less about what's likely to come Every year that Trump was in office he defunded the Center for Disease Control the main government institution concerned with potential health hazards so every year cut it back- no profit for private business. I mean , it happens to Benefit the public but who cares about them? They're of no significance? The... er... in fact this continues even after the pandemic right now as you can see Trump is clawing around desperately to try to find some scapegoat to cover up the Serious crimes he's committed against American people Tens of thousands have died because of the way he's been handling. So you gotta blame somebody Now the main idea is let's blame China. Okay. So a lot of Yellow Peril hysteria There is a program that... there was a government program Continuing to work with the Wuhan Institute. This is after the pandemic broke Working with them to try to find ways to mitigate it and control it Trump canceled that because we have to hate China. So therefore American scientists aren't allowed to work with China. Okay That's Now, let's see what there were plenty of warnings. In fact, you know, you know in ...last October October There was a major Simulation of what would happen if a coronavirus came? nobody paid attention Okay, finally comes last December, December 31st China informed the World Health Organization that their doctors are finding pneumonia like symptoms with unknown aetiology about a week later Chinese scientists had identified the source of the Epidemic that was then growing Coronavirus. A couple days later they had sequenced the genome handed over to the World Health Organization - distributed to the world. By mid-january every Serious virologist in the world knew exactly what it was Then comes the question of how governments react. It varied. In East Asia in Oceania, Australia, New Zealand they reacted very quickly They now pretty much have the virus under control If you look look the way it was done, it's very interesting But take South Korea which happened to be hit first by a very serious outbreak of Covid19 epidemic. They reacted instantly -they didn't have a lockdown They had massive Testing and then they carefully traced each individual who had symptoms checked their contacts quarantined those who were contacted - the rest of the society continued They continued to do this. This was assisted by civil society the unions played a major role in ensuring that it proceeded properly NGOs in South Korea participated and the community organizations formed To try to make sure that in their own communities the proper procedures were followed with this vast civil society participation And a government that cared about its citizens that was contained in the most dangerous place Other countries in the region did pretty much the same - Taiwan, Singapore, Vietnam New Zealand's practically eradicated with a lockdown in that case - Australia. Well, what about Europe? Europe didn't pay much attention to what these Asians are talking about, so Europe dithered Finally the European countries kind of got their act together one way or another UK enough to talk about wasn't very brilliant United States is at the bottom of the barrel. It has the most extreme business oriented government that exists and furthermore I will not mince words ... the White House happens to be in the hands of a sociopathic megalomaniac who cares about nothing but himself and What's of benefit to him - if people get killed doesn't matter - this we see every day So in in the case of the US intelligence agencies were banging at the door of the White House all through January and February Trying to get somebody to pay attention to the fact that there's a major epidemic coming Couldn't break through - that Trump has... is preoccupied with his TV ratings and the stock market which he believes may help him Win the election if it's fight well in March the stock market did take a deep full Trump noticed it finally noticed, you know, something's happening then come a series of Extremely erratic actions - I won't run through them But they're basically designed to deflect attention from his criminality so the latest one a couple of weeks ago is to tell the governors of the states that We, the federal government, can't help you We have all the resources that we have the capacity to deal with other countries for needed Goods, and so on but we can't help you You have to do it, even though you're... you have balanced budgets You're not allowed to go in debt, you don't have any resources, but you do... do it It's a very clever campaign tactic. If things go wrong, and they ... will Trump can blame the governors - your fault Particularly democratic state - it's your fault ... if anything happens to work by accident, Trump can make a speech about Oh, he's the greatest genius who ever Appeared on earth - take a look at the success and it'll be echoed by the Fox News echo chamber They'll say yes the greatest Thinker in world history and so on... and a lot of the population and almost all the Republicans in the country That's what they tune to one day and so there's a Beyond that what else do you do? If you're trying to find a scapegoat? China's an easy one the Yellow Peril - easy to arouse people about that for over a century but international institutions are disliked by much of the More nationalistic Xenophobic part of the population which happens to be Trump's voting constituency. So let's blame an international institution the World Health Organization So let's defund the World Health Organization and move to destroy it As they've already announced that they want to do Is there an effect? Yeah, a lot of effect. It's interesting that they're not talking about So this place called Yemen? Which is the worst humanitarian? catastrophe in the world The United States and Britain have a very large share of the responsibility in that they've turned the place to... helped Saudi Arabia turn the place into a humanitarian catastrophe but there are medical services functioning that are Helping people saving lives - the World Health Organization So let's pull them out and kill the people of Yemen. It's much worse in Africa. In Africa There's many diseases; when the corona virus hits hard, as it will that'll just be another one There are doctors medical workers, health services in Africa dealing with the Epidemics - the World Health Organization, so let's force them to pull out and kill unknown numbers of Africans It's perfectly fine because it might improve my electoral prospects What we're witnessing is a kind of sadism Megolmanic sadism That is very hard to describe ... hard to find words for it and This is a small part of what's happening Let's go back to the coming environmental crisis If you're not living under a rock, you know, it's serious and severe. Now, we don't have much time to deal with it - Couple of decades maybe- after that things become irreversible May be hitting tipping points in the near future where it becomes essentially irreversible We're toast essentially Every country in the world is doing something about it Not enough but something That includes the United States, which is also doing something about it under Trump. Namely dedicating massive efforts to make it worse Okay, the United States and Brazil That's the other one are working hard to ensure that we go over the cliff sooner and more dangerously The United... the Trump administration is greatly encouraging the use of fossil fuels opening up new territories for exploration subsidizing the industries Removing the regulatory apparatus that provides some mitigation for the lethal effects of fossil fuel use Perfectly conscious of what they're doing - easy to demonstrate that but it's understandable But an extreme form of savage capitalism and megalomania That increases profits for a major part of trumps corporate constituency Okay It'll destroy civilization Coupla generations down the road, but it's not a concern. Okay nothing, if you want the clear illustration of the thinking if you can call it that that guides the administration Take a look at Trump's budget. Every year the president presents to Congress a budget for the coming year - That's February So this February - February 10th Trump... sent Congress his budget - the pandemic is raging but Trump is still saying Oh, it's just the common cold but health Specialists at hospitals, every one know it's raging What's in the budget? Well? Funding is cut back in some areas - funding is increased in other areas Funding is cut back for the Center for Disease Control Let's cut it back even further than in the past four years And other health related parts of the government Funding is increased for subsidies for fossil fuel Industries - the ones that are laboring to destroy prospects for organized human life That's in the midst of the pandemic. Okay tells us about the mentality I'll just say a last word about International planning, it doesn't stop, you know continues through the pandemic Those who run the world They continued to try to ensure that The world that emerges from the pandemic will be in their interests so out of the chaos of the Trump administration You can discern a geopolitical strategy It's not deeply hidden the basic idea is to construct a reactionary international International of the most reactionary harsh states run by the White House Who were the candidates? Well Bolsonaro's Brazil is an obvious one demolishing what's left of Brazilian democracy? Racing to destroy the Amazon The pandemic response Is captured in a word when Bolsonaro was informed by health officers - who he then fired right away - informed that His policies of doing nothing are causing enormous damage. Lots of people are dying His answer was so what? They're poor people mostly Dark-skinned, indigenous, black So; so what? The rich will make it. So he'll be a member. Well, he moved to the Middle East a leading member is el-Sisi's Egypt - as Trump puts it, his favourite dictator - the worst dictatorship in Egypt's history. That's there. The family dictatorships of the Gulf, of course, they joined. Then MBS and Saudi Arabia and the rest A core element of it is Israel, which is moving very far to the right it's had kind of tacit connections with the Oil dictatorships in the past - they're coming to the surface. So they'll be integrated into it moving farther east Modi's India is a perfect candidate. Modi is working hard to dismantle Indian secular democracy The instituted ultra right Hindu nationalist regime, crushing Kashmir Suppressing the rights of couple hundred million Muslims. He's an obvious candidate - he'll join. Now move to Europe Orban's Hungary turning what's left of Hungarian democracy into a dictatorship. He's a member in Italy people like Marius Salvini - perfect member... His chief joy and life is helping Miserable refugees fleeing from Africa make them die in the Mediterranean. So he's a candidate nearer to home for you people like Nigel Farage is a fellow who would obviously join but in general make a reactionary international - the most reactionary forces you can find in the world now there is a counter force a Couple of days ago, that's my commission a couple of days ago. There was the first Announcement of a progressive international which is being organized to try to counter these tendencies. That moves the world in a different direction It was initiated by Bernie Sanders in the United States Yanis Varoufakis in Europe has organized the DM25 movement - Europe -wide movement, which is seeking to salvage what is valuable in the European Union -there are valuable elements and to overcome the serious deep flaws in... Europe-wide That the Progressive International is bringing in as much as they can of the global self leading figures in India and Africa and Latin America and they're trying to forge - to become a people's Organization for the world to try to Make sure that what emerges from this pandemic will not be what the Powerful forces are trying to create but will be designed in the interests of people not profit not private power, not state power, not massive surveillance; not controlled but rather in the interests of Populations. Well, this looks like a pretty unequal constant - contest - at the level of state , certainly,at the level of people Not so certain.. ah.. people are very different. They want something else and I think the... what emerges from this pandemic will substantially be determined by how these competing forces which are kind of Symbolized by these organizations. There's much more how these competing forces How the conflict between them emerges in very simple terms. It's a kind of class war Class war goes on all the time One side is always Bitterly ... relentlessly fighting the other side sits there passively and watches We're finished. That's the message that we're facing Noam,thanks very much that was absolutely fascinating you've covered a huge amount of ground there and I'm going to kind of pick up on a couple of questions From people that they've submitted to try and get through quite a few of those if possible To say to people that our time would run until about half 7:00 and we'll do what we can to Try and answer all of your questions. One of the first ones that came in, Noam was and I know you've talked about this in the past and recently in relation to how we've been lucky to avoid the dangers of nuclear war and one thing that You said there which is you know, Trump has to hate somebody and at the moment, it's China So a question was do you think that Trump will go to war with China? Either before or after he's re-elected in November - if indeed he is re-elected Well, there's one prediction that it's possible to make with Certainty that it won't be disproven. So I'll make that one. He won't go to war. I Can't be wrong. I can't be refuted Because if I'm wrong there won't be anyone around to care. Okay, so I'm sure to be right That's nuclear war - a nuclear war between two nuclear powers is essentially terminal even if only one of them strikes So say suppose the United States carries out a massive strike against China and China doesn't retaliate The US is finished just because of the effects of nuclear winter - now the effects of a massive nuclear strike essentially destroy everything Including the ones who carried it out. No, the people are in the business, you know, the strategic analysts planners they know all this Then, doesn't mean they won't do it. You know, that's a separate question But they understand very well that the the threat is very great to them We know that they take enormous risks It's kind of amazing for me and many others who almost everyone in the arms control community that people aren't terrified about this William Perry former Secretary of Defense a couple of months ago said he's doubly terrified Terrified by the increasing threat of nuclear war and by the fact that nobody's concerned you take a look at the Campaigns in Britain and the United States, political campaigns, in the United States was never mentioned As far as I know it wasn't in Britain either It's just not on the agenda.If you look at the... except for people concerned with arms control Terrified - the threat is rapidly ... the threat is extremely severe - if you look over the record Seventy-five years. It's kind of a miracle that we escaped We've come within minutes of nuclear war - often by accident, a failure of computer systems reckless acts by government Last-minute intervention by some humans to stop it. If there was time I'd talk about some of the cases which are mind-boggling It's kind of a miraculous. We've gotten this far The Trump administration is dedicated to making it much worse what they're doing is step-by-step Dismantling the arms control regime which has limited the threat of nuclear war. So last August they dismantled the INF treaty The Reagan Gorbachev treaty, which Significantly lessened the threat of war in Europe which would immediately explode the global war Next on the chopping block is the Open Skies treaty It's an initiative of President Eisenhower Which has given both sides information about the other, which Reduces the danger that there might be some, you know Mistaken first strike because of bad information. So let's get rid of that The next one - the last one is the New START treaty Which has sharply cutback missile ... nuclear weapons in Russia and the United States the two main countries -China's way behind the That's coming up from... for renewal early next year the Russians have been pleading with the United States to negotiate a renewal Trump administration is not interested. It's getting to the point where it's probably too late So that'll..one'll go. That just opens the doors If you look at the ... military industry publications they're delighted Euphoric, they're getting huge government contracts to build weapons that can destroy everything even more Rapidly, and they understand that a little bit down the road They get more contracts to try to develop a hopeless means to defend against The weapons that we're encouraging the Russians and others to produce That's part of the world in which we live and you can't get people to pay attention So going back to the immediate question There are There's a lot of ... provocative acts going on in the periphery of China. Some are by China building up the Islands in the South China Sea to arm them with Defensive weapons and so on. The United States doesn't want that. They want control of all the oceans. Notice that this is not happening in the Caribbean It's not happening off the coast of California it's happening off the coast of China and that tells you something about who rules the world, but those could into dangerous Confrontations, it's not the most dangerous most dangerous ones probably in the Middle East when Trump tore to shreds the joint agreement with Iran which was working extremely well to contain any Possible Iranian nuclear programs - the US intelligence confirms, everyone concerned that it was working perfectly Trump dismantled it. Europe doesn't like it They hate it But Europe doesn't take a stand against the United States - could but it doesn't It has to observe what the master wants - another part of the world so Europe abides by the US sanctions that they hate them, they ... keep talking about ways around them but never implement them That could be very dangerous some like Trump's murder of Soleimani Second top figure in Iran now. That's as if Iran had Murdered Mike Pompeo the Secretary of State at an airport in Mexico ... now, we'd have had a nuclear war But when we do it to them, it's fine. It's the right thing to do because we're the masters of the world We're The Godfather everyone else is Subsidiary, but any of those things could blow up confrontation Gulf of Hormuz could blow up suddenly so that's extremely dangerous with all kind of Terrible consequences. There are these dangers all over the world and if we don't do something about them they're very likely to blow up and remember a nuclear war - a major nuclear war is terminal. I should say - I'm talking too long, but one last thing about this to keep in mind The glaciers are melting all over the world They're melting in the Himalayas That's the source of the rivers, the main rivers for India and Pakistan Not in the great, in the distant future It will be seriously affecting water supplies in Pakistan and India Pakistan already has droughts. In India. There are hundreds of millions of people who don't have potable water But this is going to escalate - these are two nuclear powers They're not going to sit by quietly while the water ... while one or the other takes the water by building dams and so on. Something like that is happening in Africa between Ethiopia and Egypt, they don't have nuclear weapons, but these things are happening - all exacerbated by global warming. All of these threats are interrelated We have to deal with all of them They can't be allowed to continue or human society is essentially finished I've got a question which, erm... The question is how can we explain to the privileged that a pandemic is not a leveler but instead affects the marginalized Disproportionately, but I just wanted to add to that that I remember what the the hole in the ozone layer Opened up probably about 20-25 years ago now because of the CFCs That we're in a lot of fridges and freezers and stuff like that and the world Finally moved as one really to ban CFCs and to try and close the ozone layer because it realized it was an existential threat, you know, but it Rich or poor you're going to be affected by this and you might think the same about this pandemic There's no doubt that the poor as you've explained and, you know, We're seeing here, a lot of BAME communities - the most marginalized, are being affected adversely by it, but it is something that travels, you know, it doesn't respect boundaries So the question was, how can we explain You know to the privileged that the pandemic is not a leveler but instead affects the marginalised disproportionately - and I'd kind of add to that - why is it with something like this that even though it affects the, erm... the marginalized disproportionately It inevitably affects all classes why is it that they're not prepared to move on this and, and maybe to sit back and let the likes of Trump and Boris Johnson in this country kind of rule the roost at this stage, even though in the long term it could also threaten their interests Very crucial question, actually, I Don't want to self advertise, but my latest book is called internationalism or extinction And I think that's exactly What you're raising those are the choices and in fact, the world is moving towards extinction and Undermining Internationalism, it's very striking to watch. I think a lot of it can be traced to the Extremely harmful effect of the neoliberal programs in the last 40 years which have had a very harshing impact on individual societies and global societies You can talk about England much better than I can but it's a much coarser Harsher society than it was 50 years ago There's a reason for that and it's all over the world, so let's take a look at what's happening You're absolutely right. There has to be an international response to this What is the Godfather doing in Washington? Tearing to shreds Every international institution. Okay. We don't want any of Pull out of the joint agreement and pull out of the - destroy the World Health Organization and on and on We're just going to run the world ourselves. We don't need any of your institutions Okay, there's something called the European Union that has the word Union in it Has a number of countries the powerhouse of the European Union is Germany, the richest country - it kind of delayed in responding to the pandemic but finally acted got its act in order as It wasn't super neoliberal like the United States so it didn't run the hospitals on a strict business mall like the United States where you can't have an extra bed because It's not profitable So Germany still had some extra capacity in the health system diagnostic capacity. They used it They now have quite a low death rate comparatively, so they're in pretty good shape a few kilometers South of Germany. There's another country. It's called Italy northern Italy Happened to be a hot spot for a severe pandemic Do you see German doctors in northern Italy? Is Germany helping northern Italy? Not as far as I can tell That's the Union - well fortunately Italy could turn somewhere else to the powerhouse across the Atlantic Cuba. okay, a country that's been crushed by US terror economic warfare for 60 years - a poor country sending doctors all over the world - not for the first time. They've been doing it for years. So there's Cuban doctors helping out in Italy with the support of China which is providing materials. So there are some examples of internationalism. Where are they? Not in the rich centers of power they're looking - they're not even looking after themselves as countries they're looking after the rich and powerful among themselves mostly ok Somebody else's job to carry out internationalism - we'll let the poor do it - the people in poor communities Who are forming mutual aid groups to try to overcome the, the threats that the government isn't meeting. That's happening all over the world poor countries like one of the worst Countries dealing with this is Brazil because of this lunatic Bolsonaro, who's a kind of clone of Trump, but in poor communities People are organizing Community groups to try to do something. Some of it is almost surreal Also in Brazil now there's a huge ... very poor population in Rio they live in these favelas They're very poor slums; crammed together, you know, no water and of course no health - no health support from the The state or federal government But a group did move in to try to provide some Assistance in the favelas - the crime gangs - the crime gangs that have been terrorizing the poor communities That are so strong that police are afraid to go - in they moved in Organizing social services - That's the kind of world we live in. Okay, do we want to let it persist like this? And we have the power, we have the choice. We have the opportunities Within our own country. I don't know the statistics for England but in the United States over... the deaths, Overwhelmingly, they're elderly but that's everywhere but aside from the elderly it's a people in nursing homes. It's People in... it's the poor black and Hispanic, not only are they the most deaths but they are the ones who are being forced to work under harsh conditions So take the executive order of the government federal government to open the meat packing plants You know Absolutely needed for survival. How am I gonna get by without my sirloin beef but Who works in that ... the meatpacking plants are horror shows extremely dangerous terrible working conditions people crammed together mostly black, Hispanic, Porto Rican So let's force them back to work so they can die - doesn't matter much like Bolsonaro said - so what there's plenty of them, that we can bring in more. Gets even crazier Mexico is trying to close the Maquiladoras, you know the factories up in the northern Mexico, which supply the US market because of health conditions bad, you, know again, poor safety conditions and so on they want to close them The Trump administration is trying to force Mexico to keep them open 'course American car manufacturers need leather seats We can't stop that. So that's the Mexican workers died. This is much like the World Health... destroying the World Health Organization because it only saves hundreds of thousands of Africans I mean we're living in a world that has turned into Astonishing savagery. No this didn't happen as you said at the time of the the ozone layer problem, then there was still a residue of humanity the neoliberal Savage breed had not yet sunk; in it now has. We see it in human relations we See it International affairs. It's a Speaking of a virus. It's a kind of a virus. That's destroying the basis of society and Consciously. You remember Margaret Thatcher. Ok,- there is no society only Doesn't exist. There's only individuals thrown into the marketplace To survive somehow Thatcher probably didn't know it but she was paraphrasing Karl Marx mid 19th century he was Condemning the autocrat... autocratic governments of Europe Because they want to turn the population into a a sack of potatoes Isolated, atomized, disorganized - subject to the will of concentrated power That's 'there was no society'. We see the consequences it's a large part of the basis for the anger and resentment A hatred of institutions that's all over the place - a very fertile territory for demagogues Who can say yeah, you're right. It's those, it's those guys who were responsible the immigrants, the Chinese, the World Health Organization - it's them. Now that we're seeing a lot of that and a lot of it is the direct result of the neoliberal plague The forces that created that are working very hard right now. They were relentless To ensure that what comes out of the pandemic will be a harsher version of that Very much the same but with harsher controls that more surveillance more control of people Harsher regulations and so on. They don't have to win but if there's no counter force, they will In recent years we've seen an alarming rise in the popularity of far-right parties and sentimentalities We've seen opinions being considered just as good or better than facts I remember I think was Kellyanne Conway who said well I've got alternative facts Which was just basied simply Her opinion. So one question that we've had around that is how do we combat collective ignorance? This is something that seems to be on the rise here, you know with Reports in the papers of Leaflets coming out for ... mass gatherings in parks this weekend, which have been now linked to the far-right again which will always try and bowl in with their own agenda But does seem to be you know, this is kind of These sentiments rising - is it possible.? How do we... what role can we playing in combating ... what's been termed in this question as collective ignorance? We know this and you know it very well from your own experiences From the first time we met and what preceded You know, there's a way to do it organization and if you look through modern history There's one particular kind of organization which has been in the lead in overcoming ignorance bringing people together Getting the work for positive ends. It's called unions Thatcher and Reagan knew it too - their first acts - right away- was to try to destroy the unions Thatcher intelligent woman, she probably understood it, Reagan was just following the script handed to him by his corporate masters But they, first in England, first, act, let's try to destroy the Union movement Especially the more militant parts - the United States first act of Reagan Let's break a strike with scabs Scabs were illegal all over the world except for South Africa. Reagan opened the door to bring in scabs To break up a union Corporations got the idea very quickly - caterpillar big strikes. They brought in scabs to break it Clinton came in with a brilliant idea. It's called NAFTA that gives Businesses the ability to break strikes by putting up a big sign saying: Transfer operation Mexico, meaning if you go on strike, we're going to move to Mexico happens to be illegal But law it doesn't matter when you have a criminal state They don't enforce it And in fact a study undertaken under NAFTA rules found that about 50 percent of organized Activities were broken up this way illegally, of course It continues - the union movement is very significantly weakened One of the latest acts by the most reactionary Supreme Court in living history is to allow... What's called the refusal to... of It's called... Forget the exact word, but what it means is that workers can say we'll get union protection But we won't pay for it. Okay That allowed under the latest rules Well, you can imagine what that does to unions and what Trump is trying to do right now It's extremely interesting They're working hard to destroy the post office It's one of the biggest unionized forces in the country - the post office provides enormous services but to people not to the rich the rich do other things but for the general population, its enormously important. And not only does it reach everybody But it sets up human context You get to know the guy who delivers the mail and become friends; you go to the post office - You meet your friends, you talk to human beings - over much of the country. I've seen that all over - that happens So it's just the wrong kind of institution It also is terrible for another reason It's extremely efficient, and you don't want to get into people's heads the idea That something can be efficient that's run by the public - by the government. It's a terrible idea Government is the problem it's private tyrannies that have to run everything where you have no say at all not a government that might Unimaginably be for the people. We don't want anything like that. In fact take a look at South Korea, which I mentioned before How's the epidemic controlled in one of the worst hotspots? unions popular organizations Community groups. They're the ones that are doing it. That's the way you overcome ignorance and atomization We've seen it throughout history All the time - so take the United States. The United States now It's kind of like the 1920s ; there were, in the nineteen twenties The - there had been a vibrant militant union movement. It was crushed by state corporate force Woodrow Wilson Gave the final blow with his Red Scare - wiped out the unions - so in the nineteen twenties, they were essentially gone - the Depression hit Took a while but within about four or five years the labor movement was reconstituting. This is my childhood I remembered very well my family working-class the union movement Began to develop CIO was organized militant strikes got as far as sit-down strikes Which are terrifying to business - a sit-down strike is just one millimeter away from saying We don't need you Bosses get lost. We'll run the place ourselves. Which happens to be correct? But if that idea gets into people's, heads system collapses So at that point you started getting New Deal measures. There was a sympathetic administration, you know immediate if that measure is very important one that kind of Softened the harsh edges of the Coppola system, gave people plenty of benefits in the neoliberal Period there's a strong effort to try to dismantle them, but they've still existed well That's the answer to the question it's always going back to the, I mean just my own childhood memories and my Family were first-generation Working-clas,s the Union was their life.- It wasn't just a way to You know, get better wages. It was cultural activities educational activities concerts My aunt's were seamstresses unemployed, but they were in the ... Garment workers union They even got a week in the countryside over the summer. It was life. That was the union's That's why Thatcher's and the Reagan want to destroy them. People shouldn't have a life They should be subject to private power. - atomised - sack of potatoes that's the right way for people to be - none of this business of Cultural activities and so on. In fact, you take a look at the neoliberal gurus The thinkers behind all this - Ludwig von Mises Friedrich, Hayek and so on they hated unions They supported Vicious dictators because they simply destroyed unions I Give the background if you like. It's one of the reasons why von Mises praised fascism. He said it destroyed unions Same with Hayek, same with all of them.... That's why they love Pinochet's Chile Destroyed the working class was terrific. So let's go in there and enjoy it. This is the heart of neoliberalism There's a lot of nice talk about Liberty and all that stuff, but spell it out Liberty means the liberty of the rich and powerful to crush everyone else We've seen it. If you can't figure it out from the doctrines. We now have 40 years of experience See it right in front of your eyes. Talking about Liberty one of the things that has come up in America and it's coming up in the UK now is The, the groups and the right-wing group ends As they would class and libertarians - but that would be completely different from the real understanding of that, I suppose, in many senses, But is this thing about the lockdown is an attack upon Personal liberties and therefore their attitude is we should have the right to simply go out you know to mix to do all - all the things that We're doing - how do you answer that in relation to this Discussion around liberties and personal liberties that have been expressed by many of these groups Well, there are a lot of controls on liberties You're supposed to stop at a red light when you're driving. That's an infringement on Liberty. Okay, we could say okay, that's Let's get rid of it. Let's everybody kill each other. Okay be much more free This kind of Liberty. That's the lockdown - is a way to keep people from killing each other. Okay Is it worth it - you can debate You know, you can have a debate about whether that's the best tactic So for example in a civilized country like South Korea They didn't have lockdowns because they moved in time So that to prevent the need for lockdowns in the manner that I described. They didn't have to have a lockdown New Zealand they did have a lockdown It worked Diseases have almost gone You have to ask then when does the society ... how does it react to the epidemic and when? Countries like Britain and the United States, just wasted months Got way past the point where you could carry out civilized measures like South Korea, Taiwan, New Zealand others So the lockdown is almost eccentric if you don't have it, it'll be a huge I'm just going by the scientific consensus, which I think is plausible. You'll have a huge disaster So sure. It's a limit on freedom because of the... Pick the word... Failures or criminality whatever you like to say of the government's which has left us with few options - if we want to save people We're going to have to face the fact that Freedom has to be cut back just like it's cut back in traffic laws to try to save people the call about talk about Liberty is as Makes as much sense as saying 'I don't want to stop at traffic lights cuts back my freedom' Yeah, sometimes if you live in an organized society where concern about others is a criterion you accept constraints on your personal freedom Okay. Otherwise, you just say the strongest guy with the most guns wins - But you want that society, okay There's a question here, which I think's very interesting We are talking now online. Whereas back in 2003 we were live This pandemic has forced everybody indoors and there seems to have been a leap, if you like... in our use of the technologies even though obviously we're fairly used to them now And we have these huge organizations Facebook, Google etc That we use on a daily basis. Well, there's a very interesting piece by Naomi Klein around the issue of the tech giants and particularly in New York and Google and their positioning of themselves to take advantage of the pandemic I doubt that that's much of a surprise in in many ways, but the question is is should we or how can we Control or dismantle the power of the non-governmental organizations such as Facebook, Google, Amazon Etc that are now they are now absolute giants in terms of the amounts of money that they make and The control that they appear to to wield. Can we and should we address that? Sure... They were theoretically, like - take, say Any one of them- picture - take your choice; take Apple's the major corporation and the Biggest corporation in the world. Now, they're very profitable. Why? - They use virtual slave labor in China They work through Foxconn Taiwanese company who organizes it - a very little of their profit goes to China More goes to Foxconn. Most goes to the Apple headquarters in the United States, but they don't have to pay taxes They have a very simple way out They set up a room in Ireland Which is about the size of the room I'm in, I suppose and they say we're an Irish company So we don't have to... we pay very low taxes. We don't pay taxes to the United States. Is that possible to control? Well, let's go back before neoliberalism Before Reagan it was illegal You couldn't have tax havens You couldn't have stock buybacks which are ways to enrich management and enrich shareholders impose the cost and everyone else. It was all illegal Treasury Department enforced the laws - it didn't happen. Okay Is it utopian to say that we can go back to capitalism before the days of Thatcher and Reagan? Well, it doesn't sound like it's pie-in-the-sky There were antitrust laws that were enforced then The new principle is no you don't do that let them grow as much as they want - want that's Liberty Do you have to have huge corporations like that? There's another question in the background. Do you have to have corporations at all? And is there any reason why private power ...you should have private tyrannies in which people spend almost there are whole waking hours under totalitarian conditions that go way beyond what any totalitarian state ever thought of So if you're you have a job say in a factory You're getting orders from the totalitarian leader Saying you're allowed to go to the bathroom for five minutes at 3 p.m You're allowed to talk to a friend for 30 seconds at 10 a.m Stalin never dreamed of anything like that That's called... now... that's most of your work your waking life - Do we really have to accept that? You go back to the early Industrial Revolution Workers bitterly struggled against that.. I mean, the idea that you would be dependent on someone else Was such an attack on basic human dignity That the working class just regarded that as slavery It was called in fact wage slavery, you know, it was common beliefs That was the slogan of the Republican Party in the mid 19th century Lincoln's Republican Party that wage labor is the same as slavery except that it's temporary until you become free or take over - the slogan of the Workforce at that time was those who work in the mills should own them We'll run them ourselves. It's taken a long time to beat this out of people's heads. I don't think it's far below the surface As I said with sit-down strikes, you're getting pretty close to it self worker owned industries which are proliferating Another way. So there's this big question in the background, but the smaller question is can these institutions At least be brought under public control? Well, they can in lots of ways .... take say Exorbitant drug prices, which is a real problem. In the United States it's horrible... well, most countries... It's horrible... erm... there's a new drug that might offer some help for coronavirus Remdesivir, owned by the Gilead corporation - they want to charge Incredible prices which makes it out of reach for anyone The government put some pressure on them, but there's a law on the books in the United States - a law Which says the government must act - not may, but must - act to ensure The drugs are available at reasonable prices if there has been any public involvement in producing the drug - every drug largely based on large-scale government involvement That means every government since Reagan has been violating the law Consciously. It's sitting right there. It's not Utopian to say maybe we can have a government that follows the laws. I mean is that wildly leftist In fact, it's kind of interesting to look at the way these things are considered . So take Bernie Sanders in the United States he's described as way out on the left, you know a Revolutionary - wants to overthrow the society. But what are his programs ? He has two main programs - One is universal health care ... Have you heard of a country that has Universal health care. I mean, can you think of one that doesn't have it? Okay, that's so radical, we can't even think about it. His other the proposal is free higher education Practically every country has that the Germany, Finland, France and Mexico It's all over the place. In fact, the United States had it back in the 1950s. It was called the GI Bill That meant that if you'd been in the army - huge number of people - you not only get free education but subsidized education Even if he went to a private college -fee paying - ...I went to the University of Pennsylvania in 1945. It's a Ivy League college Fees were a hundred dollars a year And you could get a scholarship like that. So we had essentially free education - very valuable to the country; very valuable to the people It was a much poorer country, then. Is there any economic reason why we can't do it now? So Sanders's programs basically are saying let's see if we can rise to the level of the rest of the world that even on the mainstream The left of the mainstream, the most left columnists say 'good idea. The country isn't ready for it. It's too revolutionary' I mean, that's the effect of 40 years of neoliberal fanaticism Saying let's just have what's on the book law books? Let's do what We've had ;which everybody else does, which is easy. Can't... Can't do that. It's just the country's not ready for it. Can we make the country ready for it? I think so. I don't follow British politics as closely as I'd like to but my understanding is - correct me if I'm wrong - that the Corbyn programs won a major victory in 2017 - biggest in Labour's history and that if you look at, that looking at some of the YouGov polls Seems that the policies are still very popular... a lot of reasons why it didn't happen, you know better than I - I don't have to go into them, but that means that Britain... just the same polls in the United States... ... the population is ready to become a civilized society But it's going to have to be organized; active Unions are a crucial element other social political organizations are important- but if civil society is Reconstructed around the Union base which has always been the source, then I think you can overcome this plague. I think there's a number of questions around this and I think You know, obviously we can talk about the U.S. and the UK and I'm aware that time is creeping upon us So I'll keep this brief and maybe, you know If you can answer this one there, please Noam Someone said another five years of Conservative rule in the UK This could apply to America in terms of dependent upon the November election or four years How can we influence Change quickly to ensure there's something left at the other side of the pandemic? And I think just an addition to that is We're all locked down even when it eases there's going to be social and physical distancing measures in place Which, you know, makes it if you like it feels a bit difficult to organize in the traditional way Somebody said, you know, how can you keep going despite setbacks? So maybe to sum that up: what can people do You know, that's positive and meaningful And has a legacy at this stage? Well, you know organizing isn't the same as when you're talking to somebody face-to-face obviously You can do it the way we're doing That's possible to carry on organizing activities planning the future with whatever contacts are available ...some or... direct people can get into groups where they stand, you know, a couple of metres apart or they can do it virtually But it can be done and the forces that are trying to create a harsh brutal future they are doing it Right now - they're not stopping - they go on Everybody else can do it too and it's very critical. In the United States There's an election coming up. If Trump wins another four years We may be finished. Another four years of destroying the environment, increasing the threat of nuclear war, destroying international organizations, crushing the poor, Staffing the judiciary ... one of the main tasks of the Republican administration. This is Mitch McConnell the Senate ... The Senate Majority Leader's in charge of this ... is trying to pack the entire judiciary top to bottom with young ultra-right Mostly incompetent lawyers who will make sure that whatever the public wants will be blocked It'll never get through the judiciary Republicans understand that they're a minority party they have to resort to one or another tactic to try to steal elections or to make sure that nothing can be implemented if they Win an election - a lot to say about this but one of the devices is to Pack the judiciary so nothing will ever happen, but we're facing a real really dangerous moments in the United States and Unfortunately, it's not a - it's not a simple matter, in fact, to my distress, parts of the left or helping to elect Trump Now there's a movement among Former Sanders supporters saying that both sides are so rotten I'm not gonna vote Against Trump. I'm not gonna vote for Biden. I'm gonna vote by my conscience What does that mean? If you understand arithmetic, that means I'm going to give an extra vote to Trump Take a vote away from the opposition Puts Trump one higher We've been through this before in my lifetime many times 1968 in the United States a choice between Humphrey and Nixon Was a big difference - the difference you could count in several million corpses in Indochina to take one a lot of the young people on the Left said I'm not gonna vote for Humphrey. Not for me. He's a corporate Democrat I can't sully my hands on that so I won't vote Which means I'll help Nixon win, which means I'll kill a couple million people in Indochina plus a lot of other things It's happened before Go back to my child.... my young childhood... I was born in 1928 Germany was a flourishing democracy at the time the Nazis got about 3% of the vote Totally marginal party. The next election was 1932 they were Happened to be the largest party, but if the Social Democrats and the Communist Party had gotten together They would have won the election We wouldn't have had Hitler Couldn't do it Communist Party line handed down by Stalin at the time is - they're all social fascists - can't co-operate with them Social Democrats weren't that much better. So you break up the labour movement They undermine the opposition you get Hitler. I mean can't we learn? If you can't think can you at least learn? It's very frustrating This is constantly happening But it doesn't mean you always ...sometimes it makes perfect sense not to vote .. They're both so terrible it doesn't make any difference, but sometimes it does - sometimes there's a... in this case....here's a colossal difference Pressure from the left from these activists young groups has moved the official Democratic Party - the Sanders movement and others had a big impact Now you take a look at the official program now, it's not my program It's not your program, but it's far to the left of any democratic program since Franklin Delano Roosevelt That's public pressure. It's not that they suddenly had a conversion It's because people are constantly at them - that can continue but not if you say I'm gonna go away and sulk All right, Noam, I think we've come to the end of our time there. So many questions and you'd be here all night answering them I want to say it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for a thorough and enlightening talk and for your responses to the questions as well And obviously thank you a million for agreeing to take part in this lockdown festival.The feedback that we've had, just in general to the festival but to yourself coming on has been phenomenal and you know, people are looking for and enjoying listening to an alternative to the narratives that we tend to hear day in and day out You've obviously got Fox News. We've got Sky News, but even the you know, a lot of criticisms of the BBC and others for not really representing an alternative narrative to what is taking place at the moment and I feel that your talk has played a key role and I can see from the responses We're getting already how much people have enjoyed it. So, thank you very, very much for taking part you are always welcome back at the Festival and who knows once all the lock downs have eased, we might even get you on a plane over here But either way, we want to thank you and wish you all the very best for the future and we always pay attention and will continue to do so Of the... of your writings and your appearances and your commentary on the current situation. Thanks very much Noam Okay, I've obviously said thanks to Noam and like to say thanks to you our audience for taking part in this event and for supporing Writing on the Wall. Thanks to all those who submitted questions Really sorry they can't all be answered and the event will be posted on Facebook and YouTube in the coming days and We at Writing on the Wall are more than happy to be taking part in that discussion and to try and... with everybody, else find some answers to the questions that Noam has addressed - all the ones that he was able to address in the time that he was given I want to thank everybody who made a donation. If you'd like to donate and support Writing on the Wall, Fans Supporting Food Banks and the South Liverpool Domestic Abuse Services You can go to our website writingonthewall.org.uk or follow the link in the comment section below this on Facebook You'll also find a link to a feedback form and we're always very interested in what our audiences have got to say - it helps us to shape our festival and other events as well Special thanks to our sponsors And our funders the Institute of Creative Enterprise at Edgehill University Unison Northwest, The School of Writing at Liverpool John Moores University, Arts Council England, the Esmee Fairbairn Foundation, Granada Foundation and the Paul Hamlyn Foundation. If you'd like to be one of our sponsors our contact details are on the website. As I said earlier We have a full program which runs right until the 31st of May and you can see that at WoWFest.uk Huge. Thanks again for taking part. Please stay safe, but keep connected. Good night
Neoliberalism is just the last stage of liberalism before it completes its inevitable devolution into fascism.
Quote is at around 58.00-58:30
Finally some push back against the neolibs on this sub.
Was hearing too much pro biden
for anyone who wants to know the rationale behind Chomsky's voting: https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-brief-for-lev-lesser-evil-voting/
It's a proud moment to listen to Noam Chomsky. Despite his language works, his political orientation makes the problem of understanding a real problem for the humanity to tackle. What is language activity if everything is politics,motivated .Can we think of language freed of politics make its supposed better contribution to let the human civilization a longer lease?