Would we be better off without religion 🛐? - UpFront

is religion to blame for the world's violence or is it just an easy scapegoat and in a world of advanced science and technology do we even need religion anymore in this upfront special will debate faith reason Islam and science with physicist and atheist Lawrence Krauss and reza aslan author of the new book God a human history [Music] is religion a force for good or evil a controversial question I know but one you just can't avoid in the modern world from violence and terror to gender equality to science reason and education the faithful and the faithless tend to repeatedly clash over whether religion is a net positive or negative whether it helps humanity more than it hurts it joining me today to debate all this on a special edition of the show our Reza Aslan a scholar of religion and best-selling author he just released his latest book God a human history and from Chicago Lawrence Krauss a theoretical physicist atheist and best-selling author of numerous books on science including his latest offering the greatest story ever told so far thank you both for joining me on upfront Reza let's start with you you've got a new book out God a human history you're a Muslim you're an academic someone who studies religions up-close-and-personal what conclusions have you arrived at over your life and your career dare I say over whether religion is a force for good or evil a positive or a negative it's both I mean religion is both a force of good and evil because religion is a man-made institution and human beings are both good and evil and so I don't know why it would come as a surprise to learn that the religious institutions that we create can also be responsible for profound acts of good and compassion and positivity and for equally profound acts of violence and bigotry and hatred but you're a believer yeah so belief if a world without belief a world without faith let's put organized religion perhaps to one side would that be a better world as a lot of people who say if the world if there was no religion the world would be a better place it's not view you should well whether it's a it would be a better or a worse place is in some ways irrelevant because of the fact that faith is deeply embedded in our cognitive processes it's a it's a part of who we are it's a mode of knowing it's an emotion it's an emotion like any other emotion it's not rational it's experiential to say that we can simply remove faith from society I think is to misunderstand what faith actually is Lawrence Krauss you're an outspoken writer on this issue you're an atheist yourself not all theists have a negative view of religion but the new atheists and some would put you in that camp are often seen as anti faith hostile to faith do you believe that a world without religion would be a better place well first of all let me say I hate this term new atheists I don't know what it is a theists have been not believing for as long as atheists have not believing so there's new and old thing is just some acronym that makes no sense but look I think the world would be better if we accepted reality for what it is I have to say that I I don't disagree with most of what Reza said the the religion is a man-made institution but when what I disagree this was when he said we impose upon the divine he's assuming there's a divine but it's a man-made institution the other thing that I guess I might disagree with is that when he said it's a way of knowing it's not a way of knowing the only way of knowing is to is to test the world and the scientific method is the way to learn about the world to revelation has never revealed anything true about the world but whether religion if we look at the history of things is that he's absolutely right religion has done good things religion has done bad things one of my favorite lines comes from a colleague of mine a physicist Steven Weinberg a Nobel prize-winning physicist who said there are good people and they're bad people good people do good things bad people do bad things when good people do bad things it's religion is there a sense to in 2017 with all the science scientists all the science technology education we have now is it your contention that we've you know we have or should have outgrown religion well I'm so I was surprised by when I was a young person I thought by now we would have outgrown religion because let's face it the evidence of science is that there's no evidence for anything it's very any purpose to the universe any divine inspiration there's no evidence and and well that's and therefore actually it is surprising and if you look at and if you look at the first world at least it is true that whatever the noise that's happening in Congress or the President or anything else the number of people who define themselves as having a given religious faith has been decreasing monotonically over the last 30 or 40 years and most people and I think maybe Reza will agree with this most people to define themselves as religious actually don't buy any of the doctrines of their quote religion they just like to think of themselves as good people in fact my friend Richard Dawkins Foundation did a study of people who declared themselves as Christian and in England after a census and most of them said exactly that religion is user morality and my big problem with religion if I have one is that and I get letters every day from people who say I feel like a bad person because I question the existence of God and the people around me make me feel like a bad person okay because religion has user / morality and if you just say look I don't accept it you're viewed as a bad person and I think both Reza and I would agree that's not true certainly not true in fact poll after poll shows that the most moral community in the United States is atheists but I do think that both Lawrence and I being professors and academics need to do something first and foremost before we can continue this conversation and that is define our terms because first first of all we're not talking about religion we're talking about faith and those are two separate things we we can have a conversation about whether it's right for people to replace scientific fact with mythologies and legends of course it's not but I do think that it's important to understand that that's not where the debate lies the debate lies in something more fundamental with something that Lawrence said and that's that science has shown science has proven that there is no that there is you know nothing beyond the material realm there's no purpose right what science has shown is that we don't know whether there is any kind of purpose but there it happened there hasn't been any evidence that there is purpose but of course that doesn't mean that it is particularly useful right I'm not an anti theist and I think many quote Anu atheists are not atheist what if anything I'm I'm an apathy because religion never comes into the question the language we often hear in this debate is we hear about religious fundamentalists sure bad religious moderates good well maybe they're not good either I'm just wondering first of all Reza do you identify with either of those terms and how would you unpack you see a distinction between moderates and fundamentalists we have our fundamentalism well look fundamentalism is a term that was created about a hundred and twenty years ago very specifically to speak about movement within American Protestant Christianity that in response to the Scientific Revolution and the the sort of definition of truth being that which can be factually verified and the response to that was to say well if truth is only that which can be factually verified then the only way scripture can be true is if it can be factually verified if it's literal and so there we get the terms literalism fundamentalism nowadays when we use the term fundamentalism what we mean is sort of ultra conservative expressions of religiosity religiosity that is dependent upon a literalist reading of text that actually believe it or not despite I think what most people assume is a minority opinion about religion Lawrence is absolutely right many many in fact I would say the majority of religious people do not take their their religious doctrines you know and in fact view the Pew Forum of Religion and Public Life discovered that anywhere between 10 and 12 percent of self-described atheists in America actually believe in God so this is an important point to keep in mind all the religious believers who are not literalist we call the moderates do you identify yourself as a moderate no I mean words like moderate and literalists and fundamentalists unfortunately have lost a lot of meaning because of the way that get they get thrown around as pejoratives as value judgments I'm a person of faith I look I have an experiential understanding of the universe experience that's what that's that's what amazed me because what you just said it seems to me as an oxymoron faith involves believing things for which there's no evidence and only tell me you have an experiential that science is an experiment experiential understanding universe faith is most certainly exactly the opposite which is why that's a most scientists are mostly let well let me let me let me just say the point is that most scientists are atheists or and most atheists are eight simply because God is irrelevant God has redundant we've not been a scientist for 40 years I've never heard the word mentioned at a scientific meeting we don't need the idea to understand the universal maybe so maybe you can have faith in a define you can have faith in a divine purpose to the universe but it doesn't help us understand anything about the way the universe actually works so so I don't care about it's on that note I mean you mentioned science obviously I think you're right the Soviets do show a majority of scientists are atheist but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of prominent scientists are believers in God who have done a lot of great work I like to say there's some scientists there's some scientists or Republicans people aren't always rational okay okay but here's my question on that note about the religious folks because I mentioned fundamentalism is your problem as an atheist with the religious fundamentalists who kind of Reza outlined who is he he says our minority or is it with all religious folks because a lot of prominent atheists have come and said that moderates are worse than fundamentalism because they they act as apologists for the fundamental sectors cover for the fundaments your position I don't like labels either as well as Reza I think the point is my problem with religion is I generally think that fundamentalism are not their religious institutions have not only usurped of the notion of morality but on the whole promulgate ideas that are not useful and often harmful for people and take many people many many many people who simply want to ask questions about the universe and make them feel bad and moreover elevate certain ideas as sacred and without question and there should be nothing sacred in a Democratic Society true everything should be subject to question and ridicule from from religion to sex to politics and science okay and what I would say just chance and science but that's what science is based on we all question each other we don't before I don't go we all wear roads as an agreed you didn't quite onto my question which is when I say to you kind of religious folks in general richest people in general do you see them as less culpable for the kind of sins or crimes that you ascribe to religion or do you see them as just as bad as everyone else as the quote-unquote fundamentalist literalist extremists whatever word you want to give I'm just going to nail down what you think of religious people as a whole point is you think I'm complaining about people I'm not complaining about people I'm complaining about ideas there's a very different thinking about wonderful religious people there are crappy religious people my question Bible you can't generalize I don't think you could generalize individuals individuals act in a certain way and and as I say we all believe ten impossible things before breakfast just to get you believe you love your wife or you love your job or you love coming on this program or whatever it is I'm sure you bow that much you someone I do and I really do but what I'm saying is that you know I think to generalize about people because of what how they identify themselves is kind of naive and facile you say not even fast I'll just to be clear I'm only mentioning it because a lot of prominent atheists new atheists I know you don't like that phrase haven't in fact attacked people in said moderate so-called moderates are apologists for the extremists so I'm just talking about a lot of time with Richard Dawkins I don't know put any words in your mind I think you're let you're putting what people know I think you're putting words and females I know my friend Richard Dawkins takes Richard Dawkins said and I quote I know is that there is a sense in which the moderate nice religious people nice Christians nice Muslims make the world safe for extremists is that your view there is a sense in which it's true there's a sense at which it's not true too but there's a sense by accepting look by accepting this nonsense this doctrinal nonsense and by refusing to say look I have faith but you know what you know the when someone blew a horn the earth didn't stop you know there wasn't a virgin birth all of these things you know if you when you in our society we accept this nonsense and we agree not to talk about it as if it's nonsense and doing that I do think makes the world more safe for fundamentalist and of course anyone who believes in that nonsense is culpable for that once again I think and actually Lawrence did a very good job there of differentiating between faith and religion in fact he said we believe you know ten things ridiculous things before breakfast one of them being is I believe my I love my wife that's a perfect example of what I'm talking about faith is the same exact moment I happen to love my wife and I'm gonna bring every subject and ask you ask you first of all rez on the subject of fundamentalism the religion these days most associated with fundamentalism is Islam rightly or wrongly yeah in terms of what's going on in the Middle East in terms of terrorist attacks in terms of you know issues of gender etc etc do you accept that religion of Islam out of all the religions right now being debated in the world or covered is the religion that most people are most worried about and people are kind of right to worry about it because it is intruding into everyday life in a way that other religions perhaps aren't I think that most definitely people should be worried about religious acts of violence because religion does lend itself to those kinds of acts as does any other ideology but if you're going to blame religion for acts of violence in religions name then you have to be willing to blame nationalism for fascism you have to be willing to blame socialism for communism you know these are simply man-made these are man-made ideologies I think you're making please one moment these are all man-made ideologies all of them predicated on absolutism of one sort or another and any kind of absolutism is a dangerous ideology and it can be used to respond to that point just do you think the people are right to put Islam at the top of the ideologies to be worried right so what you're asking is is there something exceptionable about exceptional about Islam that makes it more likely in the courage to in the current era I mean I think that it's certainly true I think it's certainly true that when one looks at large parts of the Middle East what you are seeing is Muslims engaged in acts of violence in conflict that's absolutely true but whether that means that there is something inherent within Islam it's texts or its ideology that lends itself to that violence more so than say Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism it's false simply by the fact that we have Buddhist violence and Christian violence and Jewish violence Laura let me let me let me jump in finally okay look I think the point is that and there's some of some of what Reza said is accurate I think well thank you yeah no you know some small percentage the point is that there's lots of religious violence and I don't think you know and I am NOT I don't define myself as a theologian although I've read the all the scriptures of both books well I think the Old Testament is full of violence and just as just as miserable as the Quran is I think I said this program before they're all equally violent and miserable if you actually read the scriptures or not they're not guides for good living but the point the real concern I think is that for one reason or other and I think it's just historical the Quran is taken by many Muslims to be literal to be sacred to be not touchable the Bible isn't anymore my big problem with with Islam right now is that people take the Quran as if it is a meaningful worthwhile document and it's no more meaningful or worthwhile than the Bible and I think many Christians and Jews now say you know what I'm a Christian but I look at the Bible and I say I pick and choose what I like it's a very very point before you made that point before you say why it's an amateur point I think it's a fair point I'm gonna ask Lawrence this question deal with the earlier rezar point which is that you can't just blame religions for war man goes to war for all sorts of ideologies and you pick unfairly on religion you know world one world war two the collared war to know how to do it put it well look I mean religion is a huge force in our society and it's a contributor to many things there are many other forces economic inequities there's so there's history yeah there's ideology as point of religion has played a role and a gun and in in various times in human history a good role either initiating or justifying violence but but I think the bottom line is that it it religion if anything is an outgrowth of something that is I think evolutionary basis which is xenophobia religion is based on in-groups and out-groups I'm not talking about faith now talk about religion religion is us versus them and it's been very effective from a tribal perspective of bringing groups together and keeping them their tribe together and I think that's probably part of the above since religion is first and foremost a matter of identity matter of Lawrence said you know he admits that he's not a theologian but he's read scriptures I'm not a cosmologists but I've looked at the Stars but I would say that's a very different thing you know I think you do not first and foremost need to go back 600 years to talk about Christian violence okay we have you know Robert Deer shot up a Planned Parenthood because he said Jesus told them to do so we you know we're justifying slavery in the United States was using that no religion was also used in order to free slaves you hear is religion can be used different religions the Lawrence's specific exact texture and literalism and infallibility price and again I think that's a very and I'm not using amateurs in a derogatory way here but it is an amateur view of what's happening with religion and what's happening in the world right now every religion every text has verses that promulgate peace and love and compassion and verses that promulgate violence and destruction that's the whole thing about religious Scripture is that it's infinitely malleable I understand why a lot of Americans particularly liberal educated Americans would say well Christians read their scriptures differently because I feel that's the case because of what I see in the media but it's not true the truth of the matter is that how you read a scripture has everything to do with who you are and very little to do with the scripture itself Lawrence let me ask you this question it's very very fast it's show that most of doesn't we don't believe the doctrines of the religion and that I don't think those studies are the same in a country Lawrence you also live in the United States where there are a lot of Christian literalists who did help elect the president stage there wouldn't be a president United States without this Christian evangelism but we're running out of time which shows that they don't by the way which shows they don't believe in the Scriptures because they did they wouldn't of elected Donald Trump okay yeah Reza you you're clearly someone who has no problem signing up for what modern science believes about evolution absolutely all sorts of other controversial G but the reality is that a lot of religious leaders don't sign up to things like evolution don't have a problem with a lot of core tenets of modern scientific theory how do you resolve that should we here resolve it and you know people can people believe what they want to believe people say you're good thing good thing yes before the entire generation of people bring up their kids to believe anti scientific things somebody in the name of religion that's not a good thing you wouldn't you wouldn't be Pro though absolutely look believing anti scientific things I think is incorrect which is a reality in the religious world but but the thing yes it is it is a reality in the religious world but it's not the reality most Americans believe America is the greatest country in the world it's not look that's just believe it's what begins our pounds but what I would say is this I think what we need to do is provide greater religious literacy greater education about the religions of the world about the way that religion is a historical and phenomenological thing to discuss and and and experience we also need to have conversations that separate religious belief from just faith in itself Lawrence is right that religious identification is on the decline but you know what is not on the decline is actually belief in God spiritualism is not in decline religious identification is I agree with you about literacy I think literacy is a great thing we should all be literate about many more things for almost I'm more concerned about skewness do you agree with Reza on the spiritual point Reza made a point that you know the belief is not going down because it's interesting as you mentioned polling earlier I do want to I do want to end this by asking you know which of you is on the right side of history regardless of whether God exists or not well anyway humanics much spirituality you know what I like I love the spirituality of science because that has one significant advantage it's real and so when I look at a Hubble Space Telescope picture I experienced one wonder about the real universe I hear people tell me you know I'm not religious but I'm spiritual and usually that means that they haven't thought about the issue and I think the important thing is for you to essentially figure out a way to reconcile what you see as real with your subjective experience of what that real thing is and so again and know what we are I love being wrong that's why I'm a scientist no but but but I love being as it is me wrong hold on as an atheist you never said I don't know whether there is a god or not you said there is no God because there's no evidence for it in a yes so I said there's no evidence yes an agnostic says no evidence an agnostic says I don't know I am the show and what's another atheist or agnostic I do want to end the show by asking you to look in your crisp clean there is a divine purpose to well there's not divine purpose fair enough let me ask you both to look in your crystal balls and say this 10 20 30 years from now are we going to have fewer believers in the world do we think do we think belief is on a downward trajectory do we think religion is quote unquote dying are we outgrowing it or not no we're not outgrowing faith we're not outgrowing belief because here's the thing is I think a lot of people and perhaps Lawrence is one of them seems to believe that science can replace faith that if we can prove certain things then people will stop believing in them but the fact of the matter is is that religion has always been in a state of evolution when we discovered that the earth was not the center of the universe Christianity didn't go away it just absorbed that information and continued if aliens suddenly appear right now in front of us you know and say you know hello we're from another planet it's not like religion will simply go away we'll accept that knowledge and we'll move on last word to you Lawrence okay well first of all I generally don't pretty to make predictions about anything less than two trillion years in the future for many reasons not least because none of us will be around to talk about it so I don't claim to have a crystal ball but I think that it one thing is true religion has been ubiquitous part of human history it's not going to go away easily but another thing is true is that the more scientific literacy there is the less of the intellectual basis will will be there to support religion and we'll see more and more people finding other ways to add meaning and purpose to their lives they'll create it they'll find spirituality and reality and I think that is a good thing right but whether but I don't think the religion is easily going to go away it's been around for as long as humanity has been writing I think scientific knowledge is going to change rely had the last week I had the last word scientific knowledge is going to change religion religion it's going to alter religious people but it won't make it go away Lawrence Krauss Reza Aslan will have to leave it there thank you both for coming on this special edition of upfront that's our show upfront we'll be back you

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Id: PdKuyZZcZts

Length: 25min 14sec (1514 seconds)

Published: Fri Nov 24 2017