Worshiping Ignorance - The Thinking Atheist Radio Podcast #61

sir laughing branch bald-faced blasphemy question everything find it extremely hard to imagine open your eyes it is quite all right to be an atheist fosters growing group of people in the country has been measured as being this you have no belief or atheists you don't have to be apologetic or quiet about a challenge the opposition you see religion on 100 fronts losing the argument and start thinking this is the thinking atheist worldwide I have failed you I am I am a failure this week time and again I get emails from people where they call the podcaster they make mention on the Facebook page how much they appreciate the thinking atheist community and the overall tank I take with it which is an everyman kind of a thing I love to laugh I love people I really enjoy the you know the the idea that we could come together and exchange ideas and even disagree and somehow still get along like people we can be opponents without being enemies right they say Seth I love your sense of humor you love to laugh and you're so jovial and you seem like the kind of guy you who would you know I'd like to go have a beer with would listen to you in the car we listen to you when we're home I listen to you between study breaks I listen to you here I listen to you at the office wherever and we really enjoy the fact that you're so accessible and so easy to listen to you don't have that thing that so many atheist shows have that makes it angry and acerbic and us just toxic and you just I've failed I failed this week because I am NOT myself I feel a little bit of that that that just you know I'm saying I always talk about people who say they made me this way whenever they are a certain way they made me act this way they provoked me huh and I always feel like that's a cop-out obviously you are in control of your own actions and you control your own mindset and you are the one who is ultimately responsible and I still hold to that which is why I am a failure because at this moment I'm just livid impatient put out frustrated sick to death let me back up when I finally came out to my family it was after a period of searching I had found the answers that religion was providing me unsatisfactory so I started to you know test the boundaries a little bit and see well maybe all this religion maybe this Christianity maybe the scripture maybe God maybe well maybe I just need to test it a little bit to make sure it's solid then I go and I start asking questions to members of my religious family some of who are actually quote-unquote theologians educated theologians the answers I get back are not satisfactory now when you start asking questions and you start hearing the wrong answers I mean not just hmm that sounds odd but really or odd really wrong really bogus and you do a little digging and you realize wait a minute so you start asking more questions that's exactly what happened I started with my family just asking questions ask a few questions here or there let them know I'm have some concern so I'll pray for you I'll here read this book here try this scripture you know what you just need the leading of the Holy Spirit you know what we're either I went through a time in my life when I just I test I had it I went through the valley but I just know God is going to use this time to bring you back into the fold and it's all going to work together for for good to those who love God and who are called according to his purpose let me get a name ma'am three years it was over three years ago I finally came to that point of critical mass and I told my family I am an atheist said the word big step for me those who come out of a devoutly religious family probably feel the same I'm an atheist actually said the word and because many people are well you don't we don't believe you're not religious oh that's one okay whatever you are you but if you say atheist there's a finality to that word I had someone actually send a Facebook message say if I knew you were going through a tough time put in put an atheist the words set off alarm bells ding ding ding ding ding ding ding Oh houston we have a problem he said he was in eighth yes three years ago I think early in the year I told a blur right now but I want to say it was January February ish I finally just and what's funny is that in the background I was already putting designs together for the thinking atheist calm website hoping to take some of the stuff some of the research that I had done and put it in a palatable form to perhaps help others so I was really jumping out into the deep water and I began to get the arguments back the long emails right many of you know exactly what I'm talking about he didn't ask for them I actually sent um because I was worried about hearsay in my own family did you hear about Seth the cheer about him I think he's gone through some kind of a crisis I don't know what's wrong with at least I feel like I failed as a parent I don't know we need to pray for him I say this in love I say it enough but I mean he's really gone wow I mean I just don't know what we're gonna do I did what you've got to do something someone's got to intervene instead of letting that go on and on and on I took the bull by the horns decided to get on the front end of it and I sent a long email and I said everybody in my family and I'd ride it I included everybody loved all of you and want you to know I'm the same guy I've always been and the Sam still Seth the same guy I've always been but I want you to know you've probably heard that I have had some challenges with my faith and I believe it's important to tell all of you at the outset that I no longer believe in God and I actually went through the basic reasons why obviously it's impossible to go through all the reasons after 18 months of questions and answers searching but I included as I'm trying to remember it now I wish I'd save the email I didn't I wish I'd saved it but I talked about the in a cure historical inaccuracy in Scripture the contradictions in the Bible many of those contradictions you can see on my website taking an objective and fresh look at the true nature of the Christian God Yahweh no longer seeing Yahweh is a moral character to be admired and worshipped I included tidbits about science talked about the Hubble constant being able to trace our universe 13.7 billion years back to a singular event which took place talking about the fossil record I mean I I included specifics that stood against the scripture I was supposedly it's supposed to adhere to right and the science that made more sense I thought I laid it out pretty well for a first strike he was the first time I'd really put it all out there like that you know send it out to everybody big family big family big family I come from I have five siblings they got kids everybody's procreating in this we got kids everywhere people everywhere brothers and sisters and uncles in every one I got one email back the following day it sounds to me like you're just religious about your atheism sounds to me like you're promoting atheism nobody else ask any questions nobody else apparently wanted to know it that weird even a morbid curiosity really sad how'd you get there what a huge 180 this is from what you you were on hue would you wish to used to speak from this from the stage she used to baste when you were in youth group you led youth day and went out and actually gave the sermon in church which I did you were a spokesperson for youth for Christ he loved Christian music you were on Christian radio for so many years you've done so much great work for churches how could this happen what is it that drove your decision to reverse everything and start a new course not one person not one nobody seems to me I mean I would be I would be on the edge of my seat um what happened to you let's get some coffee and I wouldn't I don't think it would be that condescending you Tim you would happen to you with no meet him you're probably I will counsel you back to gauge it III honestly think I'm curious tell me a story I'll buy dinner come on nobody early 2009 and then and then the emails start to come in the emails each one having a different argument talking about first of all they equated evolution with atheism which is a huge mistake it doesn't even make sense if you believe in evolution you must be an atheist knew but I heard him on both sides three hitler's name out every once in a while just for variety talked about the evidence science is discovered that proves that all of humankind came from a single mother that's almost a direct quote by the way came from a single mother it's been proven by science where do you get your morals from you just want to go out and act any way you want you know what you're in rebellion right now and because you don't want to be accountable morally you have rejected the moral standard this is a midlife crisis how old are you you're 41 mm-hmm time in the I would receive these and I got better and better at it as we went along because I was hearing some of the same arguments in my own circle outside of family and I was listening to some of the input starting to come back when the thinking atheist comm YouTube page and the dot-com website went live in May of 2009 and people started to have dialog we had a few hundred people that were participating and I started to hear I'd get the emails you know Adolf Hitler was an atheist I would have to go and do a little homework and decide well wait a minute wait wait was he an atheist I need to go and get some backs imagine that he wasn't by the way talking about morality talking about the fossil record transitional fossils Einstein had a deathbed conversion I heard so did Darwin that's what they said and more often than not I got these long general emails that just said scientists is largely walking away from evolution mm-hmm they're not in fact there's a revival going on in America right now just these broad unsubstantiated unsighted undocumented statements they just throw them out they're like candy there's a revival going on in America right now and you know what you're you're in the minority right now science legitimate science it knows evolution is bogus well every time I would get an email like this at the beginning I would obviously go off on my quest to find legitimate information is what they say true and the more I would see the legitimate information the more frustrated I would become but then I would refute it and send the email back and say well this is wrong here's some sources here's a book here's this here's an evolutionary biologist and if you don't like him here's five others you know here's someone who's actually a an astronomer who can speak about the Hubble constant and cosmologists here's someone who can here's a scientist here's a here's an actual historian who went to the Holy Land and is is convinced Bart Ehrman or otherwise is convinced the evidence it proves that you cannot trust the Bible as historically accurate you certainly can't use it as a document for living blah blah blah I refute refute and we finally got to a point I think it was almost a whole year just one volley after the other always laced with will you know what I love you I love you and I'm stumped I'm praying for you I just pray for you I'm praying for you after a year I finally started to say enough this is no longer a dialogue you're not listening right I've refuted everything you've tossed at me and I've documented I respect your desire to believe as you wish I honestly I did not once go knock on anybody else's door in my family and say you got to see this here read this by Carl Sagan or Neil deGrasse Tyson or Daniel Dennett or Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens Richard Dawkins Dan Barker anybody knew I left him totally alone I'll in fact I created the online community so that I could have people to talk to and interact with without having to worry about making any of my relatives uncomfortable I wasn't on a mission to convert them they have been on a perpetual mission to convert me after a year I was like enough look enough enough it's been a year it's time to respect boundaries ok let's be a family we have so much else we can celebrate together we have so much else we can enjoy together we can agree to disagree on this issue and we can still be a family that's all I want that's been time together doesn't have to be the elephant in the room it doesn't have to be this way let it go and the emails keep coming and the calls is the non-stop day after day week after week and the end they're paper-thin arguments paper-thin arguments that have been long ago debunked so you go from alright look I know you love me I know you love me I know you're doing this out of love I know you're motivated by love I know that you want to fix me I know that you are operating from a very high degree of sincerity and I appreciate that in you I love you so much yes I do I love you so much please just stop let's talk about something else no I don't want another email no I don't need you to bring this book to so-and-so's birthday dinner no I don't want a link to the Christian answers website I don't need I don't want I don't agree I think I've made my position clear I am done arguing please let's move on let's be a family two years pass two and a half years passed three years pass yesterday I get another link and I became the person I did not want to become just freaking snapped the article was listed in World Net Daily W in d.com which is a conservative publication and the article is titled evolution to fall in 2012 question mark three trends suggesting Americans rejecting Darwin's theory I'll just read part of the article to you it says proponents of a theistic evolution have been hit with some bad news lately which has one leading author proclaiming 2012 may be a tough year for Charles Darwin's theory of human origins a Gallup survey google.com search trends and some amazon.com sales numbers all suggest evolutions ideological opponent creationism is on the rise in America the article continues last week for example the Gallup polling organization released a survey indicating that the percentage of young earth creationists in the United States is not only increased in the last two years but also remains the most common explanation for humans orange UNS believed by americans the article states quote 46 percent of americans believe in the creationist view of the god created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years sorry I choked on that hmm the prevalence of this creationist view of the origin of humans is essentially unchanged from 30 years ago when Gallup first asked the question then it goes on to promote a book by Carl gallops GA ll UPS author of the book The Magic Man in the sky effectively defending the Christian faith Carl Gallup's goes on to talk about some scientific sounding gobbledygook like this quote chapter 18 when we ingest other living things the DNA of those living things fruits vegetables nuts meals etc just happens to be compatible with our DNA so that cellular respiration can take place if it were not for the fact that our DNA is so akin to all other living things we could not eat if we would not eat we would die is the process of eating and cellular respiration the result of the mere fluke of evolution alternatively could it be that a common designer made certain that the process of eating and cellular respiration would function in such a precise and perfect manner which answer appears to be the most probable to you I'll spare you the rest of the article but I unlike my family member who sent the article the little homework can found out who the author Carl gallops was and big surprise he's not even a scientist his own website biography lists him as pastor conference leader evangelist talk radio host commentator and a former law enforcement officer so my family member brandished a defiant bold and yes authoritative argument on evolutionary biology written by a cop now if the cop had written a book on local law enforcement wonderful but why is the religious community denying and discarding all of these amazing works by legitimate evolutionary biologists and experts in their fields so that they can listen to this guy and why do I have to again receive something in my email box that is completely worthless so you receive an email like that and you have a conversation in your mind you say well I'm not gonna reply I'm not gonna respond it's been three years it's been three years I'm not gonna respond I'm not gonna respond what a waste of time I'm not gonna change anybody's mind wasting let's waste my time I'm not gonna respond I'm not gonna respond and you know what happens you look at something like that and you say on some level I say this has to be refuted if I don't respond then this argument does not get refuted in this inner circle here I have responsibility to refute it so I do it I replied so you sent a link to a Gallup poll which reveals that 46 percent believe in the creationist view but if I may quote James Randi quote no amount of belief makes something a fact so what 46 percent of Americans believe anything they believe it and that proves something no it doesn't no amount of belief makes something effect a Harris Poll from 2009 showed that more Americans support evolution by natural selection 45% than creationism which at the time was 40% and while 90% of Americans supposedly believe in God and you hear the religious throw that statistic out all the time 9 out of 10 Americans believe in God you know something's going on I know no 10 people can't be wrong well if you go a little deeper you find out that the definition of God is all over the place of those nine out of 10 42 percent believe in ghosts 32 percent 1 in 3 believe in UFOs little green men 26% believe in astrology 1 in 4 believe their destiny is written in the stars 23% believe in witches 20% 1 in 5 believe in reincarnation yet all of these fall under the God Briella which reveals just how splintered and subjective people are on the issue of what God is who God is why God is where God is evolution so overwhelmingly documented that even the church with its back against the wall has to endorse it and I know many churches do not but I mean the Pope the Pope says there it says evolution is true how exact Francis Collins founder of the human genome project evangelical Christian says not only is evolution true but that the Adam and Eve story in Genesis cannot account for the origin of our species that's from a believer finally I said you want to learn about evolution from somebody educated and experienced respected in their fields try Jerry coins book why evolution is true included a link donald Protheroe evolution what the fossils say why it matters richard dawkins the blind watchmaker why the evidence of evolution reveals a universe without design michael shermer why darwin matters the case against intelligent design Niles Eldredge Darwin discovering the tree of life Stephen Jay Gould the mismeasure of man there's a lot of wonderful material out there why would someone read about their science from a guy who has no science background on a website that has no credibility in real science are they worshipping ignorance I wasn't the full response I told Natalie I said I'm I'm in the state of conflict the nice guy thing just isn't working I wanted to work I beg I plead stop stop with the emails just stop stop stop with all this to stop I know it's hard for them they're true believers and I am at the helm of a community of non-believers with at this moment 75,000 people part of it on Facebook our Youtube subscriber count is just about to hit 90,000 people videos have been seen by over 13 million worldwide I understand their consternation I get it I understand but three years is plenty don't you think so I was kind of a dick I thought I study well you know what being sweet and happy isn't working out so great and I just lowered the hammer huh even now I'm in conflict over part of me thinking you just do whatever you have to do do what everybody x2 get some peace and quiet part of me thinks maybe I shouldn't have responded at all I don't know tonight all of you you're like my bartender somebody gets all worked up after a crazy day at the office and they go out and they sit down and they go I may tell you about my problems son after they're done they vented they've got that release and it all feels better I am using you tonight because I don't want to be that guy I don't I I really don't think it is largely I don't think it is effective but I also don't think I'm required to sit around to be somebody's doormat just because they decide I am their pet project 36 months plus of you can't be moral without not I've had it I am not required because I share DNA with somebody else I am not required to be a dartboard they destroy a scripture on him and let him fly they're going to fix me so if the calm and quiet and friendly and warm and happy assertions of well you know let's just agree to disagree haven't work and slowly we ramped up in intensity stop sending me emails look I'm done I'm done I'm done finally turned into a dick I've failed I failed and I'm sorry I'm speaking at an event in two and a half weeks in Tulsa by the way if you are anywhere near Oklahoma for the second annual Oklahoma free thought convention please come it's like ten dollars for the ticket ten bucks and david silverman of the american atheist is going to be there Hammond from the Friendly Atheist will be there Teresa McBain of the clergy project she was their first female graduate we had her on the show I had her on the show I want to save his last fall or summer before she actually came out she called under a pseudonym she was totally anonymous called herself Lynne and she said I'm preaching every Sunday and I don't believe and she was at that moment working to get out she's gonna be telling her story and many others it's gonna be an amazing day and during my speech I'm the keynote no pressure I'm the keynote I'm going to vent again in fact the first 12 minutes are going to be a well I'm just saying if you've ever been frustrated by the kind of thing I'm talking about and if you've ever been in the debate arena and you literally grab your face because the you here this long debunked freaking argument over and over again if you've ever wanted to just leap across the counter and shake someone and say google it the first 12 minutes of my speech will be like sweet nectar for you and actually the last 12 we will come together as one we will be one you have my you have my word a heavy part of it was therapeutic when I wrote the speech I wrote it specifically for that reason just because I thought I have dropped to get this out and I know others can relate and it's gonna be awesome free ok org is the website address by the way for tickets on that deal it's gonna be awesome and I'd love a chance to meet you I'm also working on a brand new video that I came up with the idea for last last year I'm not gonna really tell you really too much about it I'd like it to kind of hit you fresh but I hear another argument a lot and I'm sure you've probably heard a version of it as well how can you have any meaning in this life if you don't have an afterlife if you don't believe in heaven why bother why bother Kandra might have been a time in my life when I actually said something like that I don't think I ever did but I had that mindset we're laying up our treasures in heaven you're gonna just die and turn to dust what's the point why not just kill yourself of course now looking at it differently I see I see life is even more precious because it's our only shot and I'm working on a video now which I think I think will be unlike I haven't seen anything like it is unlike anything that has ever been produced for or posted to the Internet and I will debut it at the Oklahoma free thought convention on June the 23rd as soon as I get home that night I will log on and I will LA release it to YouTube so that you everyone else who can't make the convention can see it I'm nervous about it I'm excited about it part of me is using it therapeutically to deal with the fact that I'm producing is one of those things that it helps to break stress a little bit and I'll tell you religious families can freaking stress you if they say sometimes the most damaging things are done with the best of intentions 44 year old man and I'm being pawed at all the time can't leave it alone I can't imagine if I had kids which I don't but had children my family was maybe going after my kids I guess I get letters from people right they're non-believers and they raise their children in a free thought environment teaching them critical thinking skills teaching them a love love of science teaching them to be skeptical teaching them factually what different religions of the world do and what they mean what they have in common and encouraging them to figure it out for themselves but also saying I as your parent must tell you I don't buy it we are atheists and then the grandparents who are a church every time the doors open believe it is on them to rescue the grandchildren from Hell so they make the grandkids a pet project get them out of the house whenever they can just so they can Swiss per in their ears and say hey your parents won't tell you this but you need to get saved jesus loves you with all of his heart and he came to earth 2000 years to go to Dappy or sin so you won't go to hell now your mom doesn't want me to tell you all that but I'm just saying it be your own benefit God if I was a parent and my folks did that oh man boundaries they exist for a reason and if you're gonna come into my circle and you're gonna make a claim you're gonna come into my circle and you're gonna make an assertion you're gonna present evidence do some freaking homework please please how to parent give me a book I think I mentioned this a couple of times forgive me but it it's relevant here when they talk about Richard Dawkins they don't say his name they say that Dawkins idiot they say like it's a proper now you need to read you read this other book by Steven Mayer or reread somebody else Michael Behe somebody like that do you don't want to read anymore that Dawkins idiot you're reading the wrong authors what kind of point of view is threatened by another point of view then that tad did that just tells us something you don't feel even if you know what your worship you worship that Dawkins idiot he's like your God no he read this book your dad and I got it for you it's by Alister McGrath it's called the Dawkins delusion mm-hmm what's in the book well I don't know I didn't actually read it you're kidding me you didn't actually read the book it was enough that in the title it said the Dawkins delusion unbelievably lazy reasoning is this the worship of ignorance al Stefanelli is a retired journalist and author of free thoughts a collection of essays by an American atheist and a voice of reason in an unreasonable world the rise of atheism on planet earth the volunteer sometimes as the georgia state director for american atheists he also does some radio co-hosting he co-hosts the weekly internet show called reap so radio and American heathen radio he's been on atheist perspect as on news and events he's been on the god' discussion show yesterday he posted a piece on free thought blogs called willful ignorance the chosen mindset of the religious community and how Stefanelli joins me now thanks for being here man not a problem Seth glad to be here you have an article on free thought blogs it's called willful ignorance the chosen mindset of the religious community now let me ask you did you come from religion I was raised in a secular home did not actually embrace religion until I was in my late 20s and I spent 10 of the 15 years after that actually as a pastor I was something Baptist minister so you've seen it from the inside out right I have attended from I've seen it from both ends as they say do you look back at yourself and see some of the arguments you made some of the statements you made back when you were a pastor and now shake your head does that happen absolutely not only does that happen but it happens with great regularity because I'm involved in debates and involved in discussions and whatnot yeah it does and as a matter of fact I carry a certain amount of weight with me for the the preaching and teaching I did on things like homosexuality and women's issues and why not then they come at you and say well you were never a true Christian to begin with you're a counterfeit right if you'd had a real relationship with Jesus Christ there's no possible way you could have rejected him I'm sure you've heard that particular song and dance before yeah yeah actually that's that's one of the most common was that that a lot of us get not not just former pastors but as yeah anyone has really had a background in religion or even was a believer they get that you couldn't possibly believe if you had known Jesus Christ the way I know Jesus Christ there is no way you could have rejected him you ask almost any of us I'm involved in the clergy project and that comes up quite often if you ask any of us will tell you the same thing that particular throwback to us is actually insulting we've blow off as you do to just about everything that rolls off onto us you know we've got retorts and then what have you but that particular one affects former clergy a lot because it completely negates everything that we had at work for had gone to school for it's basically saying that an entire segment of our lives was disingenuous why not marginalize this right they're gonna try to take the teeth out of any criticisms we have against our former faith and many of them honestly enjoy the fact that they believe in fact I have heard many people tell me you're thinking too much death you know what you're thinking you're trying too hard you you've got to go with it you've got to allow God to guide you so what they're telling me in different words well not necessarily all that different is turn off brain and turn on my spiritual tuning fork right allow the Holy Spirit to guide me don't overthink we are not meant to understand have you ever heard somebody say that winner we're just insects his ways are higher than always there's a reason for everything or the best one yet the best one yet is that the Bible specifically says that if you were not a believer God has made it so you won't understand the Bible I love that one that's that's great we heard that from an apologist just a few weeks ago something like it will obviously be insane to you because you're not a Christian and then a part of it's like we're hang on just a second how am I supposed to become a Christian if I can't understand the instructions for receiving salvation well you require the leading you must have a repentant heart they've got all these hoops you must jump through let me go to your article here to your blog on free thought blogs about willful ignorance you say this you say Charles Darwin said ignorance more frequently baguettes confidence than does knowledge the word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult of course ignorance is not always a pejorative if you say there many things I'm ignorant of because I have not yet received knowledge but there is an aspect of ignorance that continues to defy logic and reason that lives mostly in the realm of religious belief we know this characteristic as willful ignorance what do you think drives that is it they'd rather believe a happy fantasy than a harder truth so what do you think motivates people to remain willfully ignorant fear it sits fear and then I believe I might have covered that a little further down in the article it's a topic that I've written on quite often and it's in both of my books fear drives the human desire to believe something whether or not it's true or with them without evidence if you're going to hell the feeling of eternal damnation the fear of punishment in the fiery pit of hell pastors such as formatted but at had I been and a lot of apologists will tell you that that is is not correct that God is love and it's all about love but we look at the psychology of it if someone told me I want you to open your mouth and say that the earth is 6,000 years old or I'm going to take this shotgun and blow your head off see is powerful it's a powerful motivator it's funny I did a presentation at the imagine no religion to conference so we're going to cover a version of this at 3:00 okay which is a conference in a couple of weeks where we talk about some of the frustrations of dealing with the same old arguments in your article you say and I quote willful ignorance is an insult to the collective of human intelligence considering the vast amount of knowledge that is easily available it is unconscionable that there remain living human beings who still believe in a young Earth Creationism the efficacy of prayer the concept of original sin and the role that human sacrifice plays in its atonement we live in the information age where even a tertiary search will probably find you relatively good information we don't have an excuse for ignorance do we it's tough not hard to find you know and even discounts with non-scientific information out there you've still got a wealth of information from the Smithsonian Institute from the National Science Foundation I mean this is easy to find we need an internet connection and the ability to type Google even correct your spelling for you you don't even have to know how to spell it I would come word of advice though if if the search from Google takes you to say Answers in Genesis you might want to keep looking I browsed their site because I'm a masochist earlier today and my head still bleeds from the face palming it was unbelievable I was there 24 hours ago and I'm still dead inside you think to yourself the the claims they're making aren't even fresh it's it's the same recycled stuff part of me thinks why are we still waste having to waste our time on these there's so much new information we should be spending our energies on and instill it's how can you be moral without God it's the same old thing Saif because it's been I guess it's council of nicaea is what about eighteen hundred years ago more than 99 years ago it's been almost 2,000 years since anything new has come out the Bible hasn't changed with the exception of when the recommend when the Protestant movement came but the basic 66 books of the Prophet Protestant Bible has remained the same of those 66 books have remained in Canon for most 2,000 years now 18 or 19 years now there is nothing new for them to come up with there is no hey you know what God came down to Madison Square Garden or Jesus showed up on the Fenway Park Megatron or whatever the hell they call it and gave us some new and gave us and there is it but every day almost every day somewhere in the world a scientist somewhere uncovers discovers or reveals something that gives the individual one less reason to look up in the sky and say that God did it so science is moving forward it's evolving forwards learning brand new things and particle physics and quantum theory in every area and every angle every hallway of science there's new information every day that is making that is adding to that collective wealth of human intelligence but the Bible you know that that'll him I shall not be moved you know they're just they're not going to go anywhere so they have to get they have to adapt and dig even deeper into that part of the brain that can manufacture fantasy to come up with an explanation of every time science comes up with something and really it's almost laughable I'm reminded of that song they taught us as children turn your eyes upon Jesus look full in his wonderful way and the things of Earth will go strangely dim in the light as wonderful way whatever you do if it's of the earth don't look at it right eyes forward keep your eyes on the prize don't be distracted don't be too curious turn off brain al Stefanelli is journalist he's an author and he's got a great blog which I will link by the way in the show description of this show so that you can go and just read it but the article is called willful ignorance the chosen mindset of the religious community real fast al if you are looking for resources to combat some of these old arguments that you are hearing over and over again there are certain resources that you like that you d go to the skeptics annotated Bible or is there a website or a book the skeptics annotated bible is very good like the wife god walki Leki's calm is good the christ conspiracy but a friend of mine named Ian Murdock and a couple of her things her book she put out very very in-depth and always Ken Humphries Humphries has a website my memory serves me correctly it is called when he's not serving me correct I would will google it just don't find the answer it Answers in Genesis every never existed yeah I know I thanks for being so generous with your time and we'll be in touch okay all right you have a good night by the way if you are looking for other resources if you go to the thinking atheist com I have a resources tab with links direct links and it's a far from complete source and I probably need to update it I don't know that I have iron chariot org there which is a travesty I need to get ironed chariots up there oh there it is yeah why God won't heal amputees dot-com there's a link to Sam Harrison project reason god is imaginary calm James Randy's website is there Dan Barker atheist Nexus American atheists and much more plus you will see links to various youtubers out there and there's a lot of great information for those who just might not worship ignorance had a message from Jonathan on Facebook he said somebody just told me I was a poor historian which is what I do for a living because I didn't agree with a biblical view that the Jews built the pyramids in Egypt lest we forget the pyramids were built 2,000 years prior to any mention of Hebrews in that area facepalm thanks Jonathan Sam said to me it seems a lot of religious people are ignorant about the fact that one does not need god or gods to be moral what are your thoughts well what they often will say is that we are moral but we lack objective morality right by what standard is it moral and religious people are by and large not satisfied with the minimize harm tack so they throw out those verbal grenades well are you saying rape is always wrong and if someone says yes they go well that's an objective standard where do you get that standard that you measure your morality by and if you are curious about morality in the evolutionary model there's a video by friends de Waal it's F isn't frank FR ANS de waa l it's called moral behavior in animals it's fascinating it's a look at morality and culture and community and family and empathy in the animal community which many people didn't realize existed but it sure does and it's like a 25 minute piece it's fascinating also sam harris if you go to youtube google or youtube the videos sam harris science can answer moral questions I found it fascinating Eliot sent a message he said Seth I was born in North East England and received my secondary education at Emmanuel College it may be the case that you've heard of the school Richard Dawkins had when he wrote The God Delusion naming both it and one of its staff members in his book in my time there I found there's an alarming level of ignorance of the Bible and that many people believe without knowing all the facts however even more disturbing than that is the acceptance of biblical atrocities I found that in a conversation or an informal debate when some of these atrocities are brought to light often for the first time for many believers context is asked for or some gibberish about not understanding God's will if pressed further a more disturbing truth comes out they will more often than not wholeheartedly accept the atrocity God says you can buy and sell slaves don't worry about it God sent the Israelites to rape the Babylonian women they must have had it coming Lot's wife had second thoughts she deserved to be turned into a pillar of salt what begins as honest ignorance then becomes a more disturbing knowledge and endorsement of some of the more gruesome tales of the Bible sometimes it's hard to know what to say to someone after they literally endorse slavery and genocide Elliot I see it all the time if I have if I had a dime for every time I've heard it was a different time it was a different time I don't mean to keep slugging my website but if you go to the thinking atheist calm you will see a tab called refuting the Bible and there's a whole section on Bible atrocities because I felt like I was taught the Bible growing up we heard about Jericho and Joshua on the walls came a-tumblin down and they taught it to us even as children and children's songs of course they omitted the part or brushed over the part where they went in and essentially slaughtered every living thing including babies just kind of left that part how you know we were busy celebrating Joshua's victory that's exactly how most people read the scriptures at the top of the Bible atrocities page I say this to set it up quote many in the religious culture insists that the God that God and the Holy Bible provide the foundation for all morality with that in mind take a moment to browse some specific examples of God endorsed atrocities then ask yourself honestly how you would feel about these accounts of rape incest slavery torture and infanticide if the acts had been perpetrated by a human being doesn't your moral code require you to denounce these acts as horrific and monstrous do you hold God to a different standard simply because well he is God and he can do whatever he wants think about it even if Yahweh existed would he be truly worthy of our praise and Allegiance or is the truly moral person obligated to shun and denounce this petty jealous cruel and murderous tyrant I won't go down the list here on this show but if you'd like to see the list the thinking atheist calm go to the refuting the Bible tab and search down the Bible atrocities it's not a complete list but substitute someone else's name under God hell substitute another tyrant another human monster of your choosing one of the worst history has had to offer just stick his or her name in there stick it in there read those stories again and ask yourself how would I react if I read this in the headlines today how would I react the beheadings the kidnapping of preteen girls to be raped by soldiers plunging spears into bodies dividing plunder to soldiers and I'm not talking about just a few thousands tens of thousands hundreds of thousands slaughter oppression slavery substitute somebody else's name in there and just let me know how that works for you area code five eight zero thanks so much for being so patient with me on hold what's your name oh this is Brayton thanks for calling the show what's what do you have for us today on the issue of worshipping ignorance what's your perspective well first of all I'd like to say well I've been trying to call the show for several weeks now and it's nice no there's another atheist in Oklahoma well we do exist I'm honestly I was amazed and I shipped a t-shirt to Oklahoma today in fact it's just like and after seeing the response at last year's Oklahoma free thought convention and knowing that they are going to have capacity for three times as many this year I'm way encouraged I think there may be a lot more non-believers in this part of the country that never felt confident enough to come forward and they're starting to get some courage they're starting to become emboldened so you know be of good cheer my friend you are not alone out there what else do you have well my main issue was a creationist mainly Christians is I'm first of all I'm I tried to go on the teen idea so I'm actually 18 years old and well I've noticed especially in my own age group is that the creationist argument is the only argument they've ever heard they don't know what the ACA what the atheistic side of the argument is and so the only argument they accept as valid is the only one they've heard and if they are blind or have been sheltered from the information they are ignorant we're not saying it as an insult right ignorance is not a crime you just don't know so what then you present them the information I will do my I'll do my best a lot of them well like I'm sure you know are not exactly keen on hearing once they don't want to hear I mean ignorant is bliss and people do want to be happy so they dismiss any information that they don't like and honestly to be a Christian in this day and age you kind of have to dismiss any and all information that science well really the science provides because nearly all of it contradicts what the Bible says do you think it's that they would prefer a happy fantasy over a harder reality or do you think it's just such a big one is such a stretch such a course correction for them that they can't fathom embracing new information at this level what do you think drives their acceptance of bad info well it's you can play it both ways really I mean what someone who's okay take it 75 80 years old who's been a preacher four five six decades they're not going to want to reach admit okay hey I was wrong for the past seven and a half eight decades of my life and this is the way it goes and I guess I was wrong that would be a very difficult step I guess wouldn't it yeah and then you can go the other way that people honestly would rather be happy and maybe be wrong than face their right and admit that this is the only time they've got well you speak wisdom my friends thanks so much for the call much appreciated and thanks again for waiting so long on hold I appreciate being part of the show get document assess take care brother two eight nine you're on the sinking atheist podcast who's this this is Nick glad you're calling Nick what's going on uh not too much just watch Sam a very very big fan I've been waiting to call in and talk here for quite some time thank you very much yeah tonight I think was a good subject because I've been having this conversation with a lot of people lately the idea of willful ignorance and things of that nature now I'm from Hamilton Ontario Canada which I'm sure has a much different dynamic than where you're from in regards to religion and whatnot pretty lacks up here not a big religious community but I get the impression as an outsider a Canadian who's absorbed and saturated in American media that there is this kind of disturbing quality of willful ignorance and worshipping ignorance in the States you know I mean what are the polls that like about 50% of Americans are at least on the fence about evolution and climate change and stuff like that I mean if this isn't unique to American prepared this idea of to quote Steven Colbert truthiness this idea of truth by consensus you know like oh well if enough people think evolution is BS then that makes it a fact like well you know science really is not a democratic process well that's exactly what the article I mentioned at the beginning of the show talked about it's like wow you know half of all Americans and that number is rising and of course you know the universe doesn't really care whether or not you believe how it works it just kind of does what it does exactly and I know I know this sounds kind of retention of me but I not having this conversation or argument it's like doesn't matter if 99 percent of people think two plus two equals five two plus two does not equal 5 and when you find people like that let's say that you find an American who is ignorant let's say that you had caught me 15 20 years ago and I had said something like well there are no transitional fossils would you bother presenting the evidence to me would you would you feel like you were wasting your time no you know what it's a very interesting question and on that matter obviously my response would be probably facepalm and then every fossil is a transitional fossil but I don't know I don't really deal with it firsthand a lot up here but but you got don't you aren't you guys heavy Catholic up yeah I I actually was just checking out the numbers recently and it fascinated me apparently most of us a conflict up here didn't really know that before um my mother was Catholic I was raised in sort of a liberal Christian environment and their churches everywhere but like I guess the best way I could say it is there's a really prominent Christian presence I'm here it's just not the kind of Christianity that would maybe necessarily be recognizable to you I mean we don't really get up here hung up on the evolution thing or the homosexual thing it's just like oh well live and let live it's kind of just you know bring bring some of that down here bring some of that south would you because we've got people tearing each other to ribbons in our school systems and our political process is about evolution and about the the rights of gays and I mean it's not it's absolutely I'll tell you these people trod the Bible out and every time they use the Old Testament to speak out against homosexuality I find myself screaming screaming mind you at the television it's unbelievable of course and then you will have some guy sitting in a Red Lobster eating shrimp with tattoos all over his arms talking about how Leviticus says homosexuality is wrong when he's wearing a shirt that's a cotton polyester blend you know that's true and you know what I do I sent him to the website God hates shrimp comm it's awesome there's a website called God hates shrimp com and these guys are brilliant it's just well don't give up on us Americans I know we've got some real major significant facepalm worthy challenges down here but the tide for reason is starting to turn so yeah and I like I don't want to stand that the American I love America I love Americans you know it's just you know you get stupid everywhere you go oh yeah honestly I would just turn in the screw a little bit I I know that that people like in Europe I get messages all the time and they're like what the Hamill's going on over there and I'm just like just I have like weird since that us Canucks might be a little more understanding because we're so close you know you go you're our neighbors man we're just we've got to make sure that we take care of each other in the meantime you know folks give us a couple of decades we're swinging for the fences here we're doing our very best to try to fix things from the inside out thanks for a great call and take care of yourself next time we're up in Canada we'll try to buy you a coffee okay thank you so much sir doc take it easy let's see I had a message in from Marco he said about today's topic worshipping ignorance I think it's a bit more complex than that he says from my personal experience I see people worshipping out of habit more than anything else my parents for example my dad even went so far as to confide in me by telling me he did not really believe in God anymore but he couldn't kick the habit of going to church though the motion to prayer at the dinner table listening to religious music my mom is more confident in her faith so he's just tagging along I also remembered that my childhood priest was uninspiring he was going through the motions at Mass and I thank him for that as it helped me make up my mind at a very young age about the veracity of the Church's teachings in the Bible I witnessed this up close as I was an altar boy until I hit 16 at which point I came out and told everyone I was through with church and did not believe had not believed for at least four years at that point actually other people worship out of fear peer pressure cultural habits or other reasons I don't think very many religious people actually do believe they're afraid to tell though fear of being ostracized being their main motivation I'm lucky to have lived the better part of my life in one of the most liberal countries in the world the Netherlands where atheists need not fear speaking publicly about their lack of faith so I suspect a majority of religious people including priests pastors rabbis and Imams are in fact non-believers caught in a lie that is larger than life and impossible to escape but then if you tell a lie often enough it becomes your truth thanks for the letter Marco I find most people believe because they don't truly know what they believe I can't tell you how often it happens but it's it's so often that it's I'm don't write this moment trying to think of the exceptions where you say do you believe in God I say yes so then you follow up which what God do you believe in and they go well I'm a Christian they don't say Yahweh or Jehovah or the Christian God they normally do said well I'm Christian I'm a Christian Baptist whatever but if you start to ask them specifics it's a real challenge and it's honestly it's a pretty easy way to empty the room but why did you choose the Christian God mean why did you choose Yahweh well I was I was raised in a Christian home and you know we grew up with this way we learned about the Bible and we learned the Bible was true how do you know the Bible is true how do you know this who authored the book of say Leviticus do you know who wrote the book of Libman and they may have another book from Barnes & Noble sitting on their bookshelf right there reading John Grisham mother reading one of the Twilight books or whatever they know who that author is they know the publishing house they know the date it was released they know all of the information they know when it came out in paperback they know how much it cost on Kindle they know the author's biography and maybe even have a bookmark to the fan site or the official web page maybe they read about it in magazines information aplenty who wrote your Bible laughs God did now what human being wrote the Bible and then they freeze Leviticus whiticus Pittacus ah I knew this ones I think laviticus so you don't know who well no I mean well I can't think of it right now you wrote the book of numbers I know what you're going with this you wrote the book of zechariah zechariah they found a name how do you account for the discrepancies in scripture where even the Gospels give differing accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ different details different things happening at different times with different people how do you reconcile that well you know what I've got to go by they don't know and they don't want to know it's too inconvenient it's too much to digest it's too much of a headache it is too big and I'd rather be happy it's all I've ever known my whole life why muck it up why stir the pot why muddy the waters why hell Seth I look at you when I see all the stuff you've been going through for years you can't get peace everybody's trying to fix you your email inbox is one freaking message after the other and everyone's trying to tell you why you're on coming up with crap information to prove it you're irritable you're cranky you are becoming someone you do not want to be mister and I just don't want that for me I am totally understand why some people check out why do I put yourself through it why do it to yourself I'll tell you why to do it I'll tell you exactly why you should do it for yourself because I'd rather live a difficult life truthfully then live an easy lazy life with my head in the clouds I would rather face opposition for what is right then go along to make things easy it's more fulfilling trust me overall despite all the crap despite all despite the fact that occasionally I just could stink nails overall I'm happier I really am it's like being comfortable in your own skin for the first time and for years and years and decades you're putting the square peg to the round hole and you punish yourself because it does not correctly fit it doesn't fit when you find answers that do make sense then they are satisfying despite all the crap you get from everybody else I mean with a word of encouragement and this is from a blog I posted at the thinking atheist calm called atheism on the rise for those who come and say there's a revival happening in America there's a revival happening scientists by and large scientist or they've a no evolutions junk they're coming back to Jesus folks more and more people are issuing the inherited belief systems of their families and cultures according to the world Christian Encyclopedia the number of quote non religionists has skyrocketed over the last century across the planet the number listed was 3.2 million in the year 1970 years later it was 679 million in two thousand nine hundred eighteen million with eight point five million new apostates annually worldwide the national religious identification survey conducted by Trinity College in Connecticut reveals that atheism is on the rise in the United States the Pew Research Center reports that younger generations are also significantly less likely than older ones to affiliate with a religious tradition 26 percent of those under the age of 30 said they were quote unaffiliated that's one in four one in four that define themselves as atheist agnostic or nothing in particular in fact today's 20-somethings right now twice as likely twice as likely to be irreligious as their 1990 counterparts I credit the Internet and the availability of information for that by the way a November 3rd 2011 article sums it up in the sub-header how generations had changed Christian author drew dick agrees saying I think there has been a lot of evidence that they young people are dropping the religion at a greater rate than younger adults of yesteryear he's convinced enough that he's written a book on the subject called Generation X Christian why young adults are leaving the faith and how to bring them back also notable is the recent dominance of best-selling atheist books in the marketplace Richard Dawkins The God Delusion was the number-two hardcover on amazon.com with sales well over 2 million by early last year Christopher Hitchens hit number one on the New York Times bestseller list with his 2007 book God is not great sam Harris's letter to a Christian nation debuted on the same list at number seven millions are casting off the superstitions of their families and cultures and are proud to be counted as non-believers in the polls in their households and their places of work despite so often having their characters reputations integrity morality and sanity questioned questioned by the way by people who worship ignorance and as more and more people step forward those in the wings are indeed gaining but the religious will not concede they will not go quietly as the tide continues to build expect longer louder and more desperate protests like the law enforcement officer who wrote the book on evolutionary biology desperate protests from the devout as they watched the foundation crumble under their wild superstitious and ludicrous claims they'll position quote experts at the podiums and the pulpits a scour the globe for signs and wonders they'll stretch themselves to pretzel proportions to make sense of the non sensical and they'll give you that look of pity and treat you like you are broken because you don't believe in flying chariots of fire giants zombies a levitation talking donkeys and people who live to be 1,000 years of age and as the religious froth and clamor to defend their invisible father in his ancient book of angels and devils and curses and spells just remember that more and more men women and young people are instead casting off the fairy tales and checking the box under irreligious non-religious no affiliation atheist they're standing up and they're being counted and for those recently free of their religious chains they are discovering the real world for the first time I wonder what those statistics will look like in another 20 years thank you for the last hour and 21 minutes I feel remarkably better a little podcast therapy does wonders I'll see you back here next Tuesday night as we talk about the atheist wedding you're kidding in a church with the preacher details coming up next we'll see you Tuesday night follow the thinking atheist on Facebook and Twitter watch dozens of original videos on the thinking atheist YouTube channel and visit our website for resources links contact information the errors blog and more the thinking atheist calm

Channel: TheThinkingAtheist

Views: 148,154

Keywords: atheist, atheism, agnostic, The Thinking Atheist, Al Stefanelli, religion, God

Id: T_5dqgy4eJo

Length: 79min 49sec (4789 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 06 2012