World Over - 2017-09-28 - Pope Francis Given Formal Correction with Raymond Arroyo

[Music] welcome back to the world over a year ago five questions or Dubya concerning the Pope's teaching on marriage and communion were submitted by four Cardinals the papal teaching amoris Laetitia is what raised the questions and though they have gone unanswered they are not going away this week a group of international Catholic theologians laymen clergy and papal critics went public with a filial correction of the Pope such a formal correction of a Roman pontiff has not occurred since 1333 they accused Francis of propagating heresy due to ambiguities in amoris Laetitia and subsequent comments made by the plaintiff himself joining us tonight from Edinburgh Scotland is one of the signatories of that filial correction and its spokesman moral philosopher at Oxford University dr. Joseph Shaw thank you for joining us okay I want to start with why now dr. Shaw why do something like this and why did you all decide it should take this form as a filial correction well we we take our stuff from the the role of the the Pope in the Catholic Church which is as Christ said to confirm the Brethren in the face so that's what the Pope is for if you like that's what that's why he has the power as he has that's why he has the teaching authority that he has so we want to see the Pope teaching clearly the things which need to be taught clearly they're things about which there's confusion where things where the people are disagreeing with each other when it's important that the truth be be made clear so we've seen a moister tit SIA and of course the the endless arguments about the the nature of the document and what it might mean and the various efforts have been made to ask the Pope to make it clearer but what's become evident over the last months and a couple of years is that the Pope is he actually encouraged a certain interpretation without actually making that interpretation his official teachings he's not using his teaching office so for example when the bishops of Malta the two bishops of Malta published their guidelines on how it should be applied now these guidelines were quite quite difficult theological II there that raised many difficulties but they were published in the Vatican's official newspaper now that's not an act by the Pope that's not an exercise of the papal teaching ministry but it is a pretty heavy hint that you know the people in Indian charge in Rome want to understand the amorites yeah in this way so we're no longer dealing with the ambiguities all the moss that hits here itself we're now dealing with yeah lest we confuse people I want to make sure we're not circling the issue without explaining it to the viewer what we're talking about here is one chapter chapter 8 in amoris Laetitia this papal exhortation of papal teaching document where it is suggested that a clergyman may accompany a divorced and remarried person and that person without an annulment may go to communion that's the suggestion you that's the pastoral application that some are applying to amoris Laetitia now I want to run down the seven charges you all offer and I suppose you you charge the Pope with encouraging these what you call heresies refusing to answer the Dubya the five questions by the Cardinals forcibly intervening at the 2015 Synod of the family and inserting in a midterm report a proposal to allow communion for adulterers in a proposal that pastors should emphasize the positive aspects of lifestyles the Church considers gravely sinful including civil remarriage after divorce and premarital cohabitation then it goes on endorsing an interpretation of the exhortation by Vienna Cardinal Christophe Shawn Bourne that allows for communion to be given to adulterers firming a statement by the bishops of Buenos Aires that would lead to the same end and it goes on what do you think the reaction to this is what have you heard anything official from the Pope no no the Pope has not made any any reaction at all in line with his his non reaction to the dubia from the Cardinals and indeed to the petition the figlio appeal that raised eight hundred thousand signatures in relation to the Synod so and the purpose is deliberately not responding to this and that's that's something which he's free to do but he what he is doing is is giving these indications that one particular interpretation of amorous is to be preferred to the others and that's what some of those things you just mentioned they add up to that so okay you know the insertion of that I need to I need to get into this before I run out of time before a noted theologian at Boston College Richard Gaylord debts told National Catholic Reporter the prominence given to the number of signatories masks the fact that these are really marginal figures I also read another report I think it was Catholic news agency suggesting that you all are all Lefevre soar sis Mattox is that true no it's not true it's not true these this suggestion sits rather oddly with the same response that that was made to the four Cardinals Juby oh so the four Cardinals are obviously not as massive they're obviously not the febris they're obviously not people without any qualifications or or standing but the you know the people will say the same things about them as they're saying about us so it's obviously not a question of our standing or qualifications it's it's they just ain't like what we're saying so they're trying to distract attention from that I'm not I by all means you know ignore what we're saying but it's caused a result it's caused an effect on the Catholic world because people are interested in this and people are saying to us well thank goodness someone is saying this at last and this is something which other people can into and other people can talk about and what are you looking for what are you hoping the ultimate reaction will be ultimately what we want is an exercise of the papal Magisterium indeed the teaching of the church in general and that's what we're looking for we're looking for the church to tell us you know the sons and daughters of a church we want to know from the church them though that the teaching church which isn't us it's it's then it's the bishops and the Pope it's to what we should believe to confirm us in the faith mm-hm now we know what we think we know that you know the church has talked in the past certain things now I know I'm a fallible human being and I may be wrong but I would like to someone to explain why I'm wrong you know be happy to accept that and that's not what we've had we haven't had a discussion about this from the Pope even the Pope's supporters and they there tend to be rather evasive there's a lot of appeals to Authority dr. Joseph Shaw I thank you for joining us and now for analysis I'm joined by the papal posse editor-in-chief of the Catholic thing org Robert royal and from New York father Gerald Murray Canon lawyer and priest of the Archdiocese of New York I thank you both for being here I want to start with you Bob how credible is this effort how important is it some are dismissing it and saying all these are just a couple of Fringe people writing a letter there are bishops now signing on well look you could argue that since the Pope did not respond to the four Cardinals putting out another appeal like this even the 800,000 that dr. Shaw mentioned earlier right it's not going to really produce any result inside the Vatican or from the Catholic hierarchy why not well some of the reasons that dr. Shaw manche and then I think that we know at this point that the Holy Father wants to leave these questions open he says he wants them discussed but then some of his supporters get very agitated when some groups some some scholars raise these various emissions so look you could argue it either way whether this should have been made public but these questions will not go away and there were a lot of nervous Catholics in the world I hear from them you hear from them I'm sure bishops around the country and around the world are hearing about this because marriage is something that touches everybody virtually so when this teaching that had been so firm is so clear in Catholicism unlike other Christian groups seems to have been put in doubt by this particular papacy but then again also not put in doubt because we don't know exactly what it hasn't been clarified people get very nervous and then also as we know unfortunately some get angry yeah father Jerry some are saying these people the signatories to this filial correction are out of line they don't have rights to do this who do they think they are and they're acting like Protestants I've seen that in some of the commentary canonically what is the position of a filial correction where does that fit in and what do you make of bishops like renege receipt of the former bishop of Corpus Christi signing on just this week to this correction the laity have the right according to Canon Law Canon 212 to make known to the pastors of the church their concerns and when the concerns have to do with the questions of Catholic doctrine to cite teachings of earlier Pope's and councils in presenting their position is not an act of effrontery or disobedience or disrespect rather it's a plea from the sons and daughters of the church to the Holy Father to reconcile what he is saying in amoris Laetitia with those previous teachings and as bob says this is not going away we've been talking about this on air for at least a year and a half now because central questions are at issue is it legitimate for someone to be living in an adulterous state and receive Communion at the same time Morris at ETA says there can be exceptions to this rule the bishops of Malta say that and wrong the church has never taught this and asking the Pope to make that clear and reaffirming what his predecessor said for me that's a good act of loyalty to the papacy on the behalf on the part of those laymen and and priests and bishops even because we can't leave this up in the air and say well it'll sort itself out over time know what so what happens over time is you have more dispersion more confusion and more fighting hmm Robert Royal some of the critics of this a professor of theology at Boston College said this will only create more division and you are attacking the Pope I think that's not true I think if you look at the document and I would encourage all our viewers to read this and to see what it is that they're bringing 25 pages and it's very reasonable particularly the lead-up they pledge fidelity to the Pope it's very gentle sort of in the late there's a summary and you can you know you can kind of go through it but you can't dismiss people simply because you don't like what the message is I'm gonna say this again the Holy Father has chosen to allow this conversation to go on one of the things that I found quite odd as I was thinking about this is this week when that document came out is we know that in the United States and in many countries around the world in fact parish priests have been going precisely through that type of discernment without authorization you know that allow allowing people back into the life of the church without an annulment without an annulment I mean that's been happening why it was necessary for the Holy Father to kind of put this formally on the record I don't know I mean he often seems to be responding to the kinds of rigidity that he talks about frequently that seemed to be in his own personal history and in the history of Argentina so maybe that's what he's thinking of but I don't see how you can say that they are that these people are creating controversy the controversy exists and better that someone comes forward with a well reasoned very clear respectful document that says here is why we don't don't know what's going on I took very much to heart with professors charges said that we're all fallible human beings and so if we're in bringing up these issues tell us why that is father Gerald Murray your thoughts on Cardinal Willett who's headed the Congregation for bishops Canadian bishop he said today that these alarmist and unfaithful interpretations of amoris Laetitia should be put aside and then he said this we must reread amoris Laetitia in a spirit of pastoral conversion and with receptivity to papal teachings to help cultures that are far from the faith experience the joy of the gospel that emerges from faith your reaction though the greatest act of charity is to tell the truth of Christ to the people of God and to all those who want to hear that message and when the Lord said the man who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery there are no exceptions to that the Lord did not have an asterisks on that phrase and the church has never understood that we can establish a category of adulterers who will not be considered to be violating the divine law now the question of giving communion to the divorce and remarry has been treated extensively by the church up to this pontificate and it's all been unanimous it can't be done unless the people who are in validly married live as brother and sister Pope Francis decided in footnote 351 that he said that there can be pastoral company in which you include the administration of the sacraments and it seems to be referring and that's what most people think to people who are living as husband and wife when they're not validly married this cannot be treated as a minor matter that we don't have to pay attention to because it overthrows very clearly what the predecessor said you cannot be living actively in an adulterous Union and receive Communion in the Catholic Church it contradicts what Christ said it contradicts the nature of marriage and it makes mortal sin into nothing it is a mortal sin to commit adultery we cannot go by moral theology which minimizes the gravity of that offense I think that's what the Dubya Cardinal we're saying that's what this letter is saying it's for me it's just a matter of let's get this out in the open discuss it and then reaffirm Catholic teaching clearly I think that's what everybody wants in this matter Robert royal you wrote a piece on Catholic thing this week that really it took my breath away a little bit the title of which was Pope Francis father Martin and faith without reason is that where you think we are faith without reason well I was trying to be provided if they heard I got your attentional unit it worked yeah this is a phenomenon even quite before we get to this particulars about amoris Laetitia it seems to me that lately in the church we've been backing away from what everyone used to think was the distinctive strengths of Catholicism and that is as people used to say at least Catholics know what they believe because it's nerville you worked out its self consistent and whatnot I think what we see a lot of now is people looking at a situation that they would like to deal with they would like to resolve some some problem and being relatively unconcerned about the consequences one of the reasons I wrote that is because father James Martin mentioned Ross do thought the the great columnist at the New York Times said well look let's have a debate and father Martin said well you know what it seems like you're talking about Ross is a Church of propositions now this is an old canard that the the Catholic Church has replaced the encounter with Christ the spirituality of Christianity with this abstract philosophical and theological structure as I would say it's exactly the opposite that we've developed all these wonderful resources of Reason because we want to know what God said to us in Revelation we don't want to just pick a piece of the scripture and use that and then it contradicts another piece that's what theology has always been that Chesterton says the theology is the part of religion that thinks about God you know that that's what we as Catholics always thought so maybe it was shocking for me to put it this way but I think we really want to we want to pay attention to the fact that if we're going to make changes mm-hmm okay I mean Dogma develops as Cardinal Newman once said but it is always faithful to what came earlier and we want to look at what are the logical inconsistencies or consistencies continuities and we brought to be carefully aware of what we're saying if we're gonna make it a change now that I think has been a bit lacking recently before I let you all go I have to get into what I think is maybe a bigger story this week that has been obscured by all this filial correction though this one has been going on for a long time it's certainly part of a big you know narrative arc here the revelations this week by the Vatican Auditor General this is essentially he's a member of the Vatican economic Secretariat charged with rooting out corruption his name is Lee Beryl Maloney well he was forced to resign in June and now he's speaking out father Gerald Murry your reaction to what he's suggesting that he was forced out that he was surveilling members of the Vatican which to my mind was his job and it seems he was getting pretty close to corruption if you read his comments and he was forced aside I'm very puzzled by this whole incident because the Vatican under Pope Francis was supposed to be a place where we were going to get rid of back dealing you know backroom type of approach to financial accountability things were supposed to be out in the open now you remember he appointed Cardinal Pell to be in charge of the high criterion of the economy and Cardinal Pell was charged with you know cleaning it up in fact as we know from wide reports and Cardinal Pell himself identified it a lot of the resources of the Vatican the monetary holdings and property were never properly counted for reported so he established an inventory of everything they had Cardinal Pell though met resistance and as you may recall he was going to bring in an outside auditor to order the entire Vatican operation that was stopped and at that time it was said that the Vatican auditor would handle that well that's this mr. Malone a well now he is forced out if you believe what he says this is not the way you handle a financial transparency and accountability in the modern world if you bring in a qualified layman who has a good background and suddenly you know he's forced out when he was when he'd left the job was simply announced he's gone there was no explanation for it he's come out and said well he was forced out and he was being treated poorly and there's all kinds of details that you know I invite our listeners to go look at the internet to find it out but let's just say this as priests as bishops those who work in the Vatican are held to the highest standard by our Lord and we should make that demand of ourselves in these matters and I hope the Vatican will you know step forward now and say look the things that Maloney was looking for corruption all the rest now we're going to someone else to do it and do it in an open way as father Jerry mentioned there was at Pricewaterhouse all did under way the Pope stopped that in spring I think of last year just stopped that audit they bring Maloney in now he says he was framed and he was also puzzled and concerned by the departure of Cardinal Pell you remember those old charges in Australia came up suddenly Pell vanishes from the scene what is going on and what is all of this say about the culture of corruption in the Vatican and the hopes for reform well I have to say the thing that I found most striking in Maloney's recent statements is that he was brought on with the understanding that he would have direct reporting to the Holy Father and to no one else this was to make sure that there would not be any manipulation and there are a lot of rumors in Rome and elsewhere right now that there are people blocking conversations preventing the Pope from hearing from people regulating what and not only under its finances manipulating what the Holy Father hears so we will find out if that was the case they whether he was not been able to speak directly with the Holy Father on top of him this began his the soap his so-called surveillance of other members of the Vatican's from what we at least think at this point began because he found that his computer had been hacked his files have been copied in someone so he brought in an outside IT company that knew how to trace back who it actually entered his private computer and then of course that was rude that was portrayed as his surveillance of other members Vatican officials so I mean in a way if anyone out there has ever seen the Godfather 3 this is sort of a real-life version of very bad third version of Godfather Godfather this is a godfather for but there is something odd about this yeah and I think you know given the way modern communications are we will know very quickly whether he ever did have direct contact with the Holy Father to make clear what his concerns Maloney is claiming I'll quote him the Pope was blocked by the old guard that is still there we'll keep watching this story Robert Royal father Gerald Murray thank you both for being here you can follow the entire papal posse Robert Royal father Jerry their commentary is at Catholic thing dot org and you can read that filial correction for yourself at correct Co fili ali's dollar [Music] you

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Length: 23min 5sec (1385 seconds)

Published: Fri Sep 29 2017