World Over – 2018-11-01 – Full Episode with Raymond Arroyo

[Music] there's been a recent change in leadership at a diocese in the southern United States Bishop Martin Holly is here exclusively to discuss his sudden removal as bishop of Memphis Tennessee and the possible reasons for it the youth Synod in Rome is now history what should Catholics be concerned about in the Senate's final document the papal posse Robert royal and father Gerald Murray are here with analysis finally an update on the suffering Church in India with one of its bishops the world over begins right now [Music] now from Washington DC Raymond Arroyo a warm welcome to all of you joining us in the United States and the world over Bishop Martin Holley Robert Royal father Gerald Murray and an update on the persecution of Christians in India are all straight ahead if you'd like to comment on tonight's show send me a tweet I'm at Raymond Arroyo I'll be live tweeting throughout and now to our newsmaker to discuss his abrupt removal it's the Bishop of Memphis and his thoughts on this abuse scandal and much more please welcome Bishop Martin Holley exclusively to the program your excellency thank you for being thank you sir I wish you were here under happier circumstances tell me what happened in the reporting on your removal we are told that you were removed because there was concern about major changes you had made in the diocese you moved about 26 priests around and there was naturally some discomfort with that is that why you were removed well you know Raymond I wonder if that is the case because how can you you know not move you know you have seven people who five people who are retiring to or going away that creates you know seven vacancies and then that creates you know another seven and it just begins that tumble effect you know this visitation you know to me was to assist me it said in the operation of the diocese yeah they sent in apostolic visitation which is a formal visitation by the Vatican but you were told what about that visitation I was told nothing at all about the visitation whatsoever I have no report whatsoever nothing in writing nothing in writing whatsoever I was just told I was given an envelope and all of a sudden I had 24 hours or less to prepare for the visitation I was told that I can also get a list of people that I wanted interviewed so I had to go about trying to do that and apparently whoever it was had already gathered the names of disgruntled clergy you know the people who instigated this investigation because usually it comes after a petition to the Holy See absolutely someone had petitioned it probably there were letters yeah and I would think you know Monsignor you know Peter Bell Kanani because he had met with some of the disgruntled priests at the time you know but I think this is laden with you know some racism privilege you know you know people who were used to being in place and so forth and not wanting to move you know my senior you know Mecca author as well you know I mean I'm edified you know that people love their pastor but as Bishop I was doing only the things that a bishop wouldn't do yeah your excellency you were an auxilary here in Washington DC yes you were for 12 years how many years were you in Memphis I was in Memphis two years two year only two years right before my anniversary I get this information Wow tell me how you learned that you were being removed did you get a formal letter from the congregation of Bishops what happened I received a letter you know from Archbishop Christian Pierre who's the new NCO there was an is this summer at the bishops conference and so I read it and I was given the opportunity again to you know to have 24 hours to be able to gather the people who would speak on my behalf that's about the investigation how did you learn of your removal oh I learned my removal when I was on a plane I touched down here in Washington actually I was on my way to Baltimore and I received you know a email from the nacio wanted me to acknowledge you know the fact that I was going to be removed I met him previously the week before in Chicago in an airport and he said to me that the Holy Father wants me to resign I was shocked and I said why Ivan done anything wrong and so he mentioned your vicar general meaning father Machado I said he resigned he's away studying and in law in law and I said you know he says he wants you to become Bishop emeritus I said but there hasn't been any canonical process in at all hmm so I that didn't understand that I was shocked and you still have no explanation I have no explanation whatsoever I said to him I said you know I have a right to appeal he said there is no appeal and I said why you know I said I want my voice to be heard well you have a due process that you should be afforded like any or the bishop or priest or lady in the church I wanted to be clear I never said no to the Holy Fathers requests at all what I said is I feel that my voice has not been heard yeah I would never do that so how do you explain your removal you believe that this may be an act of revenge it could be I believe because Monsignor Peter bakunano and maybe even bishops type you know and it may be also immature predecessors yes in conjunction you know with the nacio for whatever reason it may be is is that Monsignor Burke and Annie and Cardinal Wuerl have been friends ever since they were in seminary together uh-huh it goes way back and I think somewhere along the line because I you know was making progress and doing the things that I was supposed to be doing that he didn't like that world didn't like it I don't think Monsignor Peter in bukidnon II I don't think he liked it at all as well as because you invited Cardinal Wuerl who you served under here in Washington DC I did as an auxilary in Washington you invited him to Memphis I speak on several occasions I did but you believe that there's an event that happened in 2012 that might have soured his perception of I was asked I was asked my the Holy Father Pope Benedict at that time as I said CAF a news agency I was asked to give a testimony as to the suitability you know of his being considered for secretary of state at that time and I provided that and of course it didn't happen I don't know if it because of my you suggestions of recommendations but it didn't happen what was your relationship with world as an auxilary well you know I you know I've already waste respected him but you know we've had our moments you know but agreement yeah in private you know there was a particular moment you know when one of our priests you know said that he made a racist statement and so you know the Cardinal was very upset and he says I'm not a racist in the priest said you know I didn't say that I said that was a racist statement so he in it the meeting and clearly he was very upset and he said I've never been accused of being a racist and no one came to my defense well he looked right at me when he said that later on we had a meeting with this priest I didn't want to be there the priest wanted to be there you know as support for him but I was there in a neutral position yeah you know and I'm not saying the Cardinal is a racist but you know what I'm saying is you know the relationship you know could have been better than what it is what about McCarrick you served under Cardinal McCarrick he he ordained you to be a bishop did you ever see any of the abuse that we're now learning of any signs of that no idea whatsoever I feel so bad for the victims you know it is very very sad for them I pray for them I pray for their healing yeah yeah I should never go on since you've made these allegations that perhaps your removal was retributive and and that Cardinal Wuerl might be behind it there is come forward these allegations from 2009 a blog where a seminarian said that you invited some kind of sexual favor upon him you have denied those allegations so you know it was after I made you know a testimony against same-sex marriage here in Washington DC to the City Council that that blog went up I find that quite interesting you know that something like that would come out and did you you claimed you took those allegations you informed Cardinal world yeah Bishop berry nest out of those they claimed they were not informed of that well I did inform them yeah I wanted to be totally transparent because when it came to my attention you know I went immediately to them because they were my superiors are you surprised that here you sit having attempted and look I've spoken to people I will tell you in full disclosure people in Memphis people in Washington some of your conference at the bishops conference too near as I can figure it out you were trying to write a ship that was a little off course in Memphis let's be honest I see a lot of quote if you ask me yeah there are quite a few things especially in the tribunal was my major concern you know because of the fact that it was understaffed and that was a reason why I found Machado I brought him in because he was in canon law studies father you know James Clark was sent away father Donato studying online and I Machado our audience will know him he's been on television here for a number of years an exorcist somebody who's you know very outspoken and you brought him in from Canada and there were some noses out of joint in Memphis that you brought a man in from cash sure but I want to focus in on the other cases the cases in the tribunal you know they were just given out I think you know in terms of their sentences and so forth I felt you know as I just looked at a few of them that they probably should not have been granted and I was concerned about that as a matter of fact I I had someone to consult on that area and I put a hold on everything because I needed to do a further deeper examination of the tribunal itself might that be part of the reason that you will remove that you were on the precipice of discovering something there that in other things as well in the diocese in the diocese why are you coming forward now bishop Ollie this can't be an easy I've known you for a number of years you're not a showboater you're not somebody who likes to know you you know run around the media why are you coming forward now what do you hope to accomplish I just want my story to be told I want the Holy Father to know the truth because I don't feel that I have been given justice I don't think there was a you know the process was fair I think it's unjust you know and so somewhere along the line I feel that the communication has not really gotten to the Holy Father and this is the only way that I can get to him I love the Holy Father I pray for him I will do whatever he's asking me do and I did exactly that I was asked threw that letter through the nose feel I've gotten out of the way I would never do anything I love the priests who are there I have no animosity I pray for them but you need to be given you need to be furnished as a as a as a bishop and as a man what are the charges why am I being removed now and give me due process I mean that that I have to tell you just the the the bit I know about this case it offends me as a Catholic and as a as a man that this is happening to anybody I mean look I've know I've known priests who been charged some have turned out to be guilty of things but they demand and we need due process for everybody here then if you're guilty bye-bye but if I was a bishop I'd be concerned exactly the bishop I'm concerned my brother Bishop should be concerned we should be concerned right now a due process is only fair tell me what is what is it that I've done that I should be abruptly you know kicked out of my iced tea and told the resign and become a bishop emeritus do you find it curious at a time when we're talking about accompaniment having a spirit of mercy walking with people who need our assistance that none of that was afforded to you well you know my Episcopal motto is His mercy endures forever okay and again I have no animosity against my brother priest any bishops or anyone Cardinal Wuerl on senior balcony any of them but I want the truth to be told that is why I'm here I have a reputation and the people who know me know that I am that type of person that is being portrayed and that is why I'm here this is why this whole case something smells fishy and and and your you deserve answers and at this point so do we and the people of Memphis do you hope your brother bishops will speak out and I would lead your case as you would plead theirs I would hope so because I think this an injustice you know at this point you know I don't feel that I've been given to justice due process canonical metal you know you Polly thank you for being here for being so candid we'll keep you in our prayers and we'll check in with you soon and next the papal posse Robert royal father Gerald Murray are here but first some news to share with you Archbishop of New York Cardinal Timothy Dolan announced on Wednesday that one of his auxilary bishops has resigned in an allegation of sexual abuse of a minor here's cardinal Dolan I got some sad news to tell you and I want you to hear it from me before it goes public because I owe it to you I'm your pastor and you need to hear it from me Bishop John genic one of my artillery bishops and a longtime beloved pastor up at Our Lady of refuge in the Bronx he's stepping aside today because of the credible allegation of sexual abuse the archdiocese and a review board has examined the allegation against bishop john genic and found it credible bishop genic denies the allegation but has stepped aside from active public ministry but Francis wrapped up his month-long Synod of Bishops for youth this past weekend in the end the Synod father submitted a hundred and sixty seven paragraphs final document joining me now to discuss this and much more his editor and chief of the Catholic thing dot org Robert royal and from Manhattan Canon lawyer and priest of the Archdiocese of New York father Gerald Murray the papal posse thank you all for coming together again two weeks in a row we hardly ever do that but we're making an exception this time now let's talk about this dance party at the end of the Synod there was a rather bizarre scene of Cardinals bishops and young people dancing together we'll roll some of this video I want you each to respond to this not that anything untoward was going on but the optics of this Robert Royal well Raymond I got that for Ally didn't I I know it is not edifying on television to say I'm speechless but I have to say I was utterly shocked by this I was there for every day of the Synod and I followed you know in close detail when I saw this at the end I said you know we're supposed to be showing the young people of the world how the church can lead them through the various uncertainties and difficulties of being a young person in as a culture that's falling apart but I saw this and I said no this is maybe the traffic is going in the wrong direction yeah father Jerry what did you make of this and then there was Cardinal Baldassare who was the Secretary General of the Senate he sat at the piano and tickled the ivories playing loves story of all things your thoughts well this is the trivialization of this whole effort here youth culture should not invade the church with this sense of what really counts in life is entertainment dance parties and the light it would be much more appropriate if they had had said the rosary or did a prayer service a gave thanks to a mighty God it really is a not a good sign that we kind of surrender to this notion that the church is only relevant when we adopt youth culture as our modus vivendi it should be the other way around we should inform young people of the riches of our our efforts here which is to bring people to God through prayer look I don't have a problem and some people on Twitter said you know you're stuck up and you're please I'm from New Orleans I celebrate Mardi Gras a Halloween we do the whole thing second line with with umbrellas I'm all for that the question is at a time when you're dealing with a sex abuse crisis are the optics right in having Cardinals and bishops dancing with young men and women or you know with the strobe lights going I'm not sure if that's the greatest image nonetheless I want to move on to some substance synod ality really took center stage in this final document now this is a form of governance in the church the Synod fathers had considerable opposition to the the the lines that dealt with the Synod ality because it was kind of sprung upon them tell us what is this mean Robert royal what is Synod ality and why were so many bishops and Cardinals upset that this came up so late in the game yeah well I don't know exactly why this was introduced late it may have been that all along the Holy Father wanted this to be an element because it's clear that what happened is that he appointed two bishops to do those sections on Synod ality which are basically the last quarter of the doctor document I just finished reading the whole document finally no lucky you and look synod ality could mean just a kind of a loose acceptance of everybody being part of this walking together which is one meaning of sin autos in greek but it seems to be something more than that it seems to be more of a kind of a democratization a sort of horizontal move that everyone is going to be together in the church almost on the same kind of level even though they keep saying though there will be people with higher authority and and certain they'll occupy certain office but the strange thing about this is the way that this was inserted itself runs contrary to synod ality because synod Elleni means you and i have a dialogue dialogue in which we come to agree and you know what we're gonna take the next steps and instead this was just inserted in Italian which a lot of bishops do not even read let alone speak they were given a very short period to either approve or not approve this so it was it was imposing sort of equality by tyranny or an authoritative yeah imposition of something that is supposed to not it's supposed to dissipate the centralized I've seen it as Synod ality as I say not as I do father Marie your reaction to this what do you think it's the intention here I mean clearly no young people were saying you know we need a chapter on Synod ality Holy Father that's what the young uns are really crying out for why was this here in your estimation well I think this is what's become the experience now of now the third Senate during the reign of Pope Francis which is that the document is used to further an agenda which is really not part of the discussion that went on on the floor of the sea young people are not interested in Synod ality they don't know what it means quite frankly I'm not quite sure what it means because it's rather diffuse you know we're talking about a Synod of Bishops this is supposed to be bishops getting together but the focus here seem to be on Synod of everybody you know the instrumentum laborious was prepared with young people's suggestions nope there's no problem in doing research but you know if the bishops don't talk about Synod ality on the floor why is it in the final document it's obvious it's it's the same thing that happened at the first extraordinary Synod where the notion of giving respect to homosexual couples in the church suddenly appeared in the interim document had never been discussed on the floor and there was a rebellion against it so I think what we have here is the use of a document to further an agenda that is not really reflective of what was discussed at the Synod I want to ask you Robert royal this next question in this Synod chapter this part of the document there's a line about certification of websites I want to put this up on the screen it says the Synod hopes that in the church appropriate official bodies for digital culture and evangelization are established at the appropriate levels to manage certification systems of Catholic sites to counter the spread of fake news regarding the church and looking for ways to persuade public authorities to promote increasingly stringent policies and tools for the protection of minors on the web your thought on this are they asking for a certification board if you will a Good Housekeeping Seal on Catholic websites well look in the past we used to have an imprimatur that the bishop would give his approval that this can be printed that there's nothing contrary to the castle right I thought cats who's not broadcast look as the editor of a an online column series right and you as it as an active broadcast journalist we certainly want true Catholic doctrine to be transmitted and the false ideas not to be transmitted but what we hear here seems very funny it seems like there are certain voices that we're hearing that we don't like and that we would like to find some way to be able to rein in I don't think first of all that's possible in the age of the Internet but it's it wouldn't be worrisome if I knew exactly who the the sensor would not with you or me we would you know we the love a monarchy where I am I think you know we're just in a world where you're gonna have to allow a wide variety of opinions to to to play out in the public sphere however I mean the Vatican has to respond to fake news to false actually false or false your deal by will you deal with false news by putting true news out and you know I hate to bring up old memories but you remember it was the Vatican press office that cooked that picture of Pope Benedict's endorsement of Pope Francis's theological virtues it turns out they they edited the letter and took false pictures of it that's called fake news who's gonna approve that who certified that so I worry about this if you want true news give true news be transparent respond in the moment they're doing a better job of that but hardly I think that passage that you read it like many passage house in this document is very vague and then they tack on the end of course we want to make sure that young people are not you know accessing harmful material that's on objectionable but it but it gets snuck in there as a way I think of validating which what is a very vague and not a very appealing idea I want to open this up in the Synod allottee section paragraph 150 is the most unpopular passage with the 65 Synod fathers who voted against it it's being criticized as vague language dealing with sexuality here it is there are questions relating to the body effectivity and sexuality which require a deeper anthropological theological and pastoral elaboration to be carried out in the most appropriate ways at the most appropriate levels from the local to the universal among these emerge those relating in particular to the difference and harmony but Queen male and female identity and sexual inclinations father Jerry Murray your reaction to that I thought there was already a clear Christian anthropology anthropology what else do we what are we missing here this is bureaucratese I don't know how they think that this language is going to appeal to young people you know this is talking in a way that is abstruse and then talking about sexual inclination Christian anthropology teaches that we are sexual creatures male and female God made us so therefore any inclination that varies from that is not really an inclination it's a diversion or a perversion even so vague statements of saying we must accompany people the question is where are we going what are we talking about where are we preventing people from going and if it's in a bad direction if a young person says you know I want to start taking up drug use because I think it's gonna help me liberate my mind we don't walk with that person and say gee have you really thought it through no we say look that's a dead end don't go there it's the same thing with homosexuality in the church there's there's too much of this a notion of people are made by God to be homosexual therefore we have to walk with them just so they can learn they can deal with it that is not Christian anthropology God made everyone heterosexual and anything else is a perversion we have to stay away from it that's the liberating message that's that will restore confidence there's another paragraph here I have to share with you it reads this way Robert Royal I want your reaction to this the Synod reaffirms that God loves every person and so does the church renewing her commitment against all discrimination of violence on a sexual basis so all discrimination and violence on the sexual basis are you concerned that that might prohibit schools or businesses from firing individuals that may not be living in a moral lifestyle that comports with the owners of that business or in the in the with the values of that business yeah that passage actually echoes the passage in the cat mechanic Church which uses the phrase all unjust discrimination and this is of course in in developed countries a very sensitive legal distinction that has to be made because as you rightly say if if you know if a teacher in a Catholic grade school marries her girlfriend and the church says what we're sorry you know you're living a lifestyle that is not consonant with what we believe is a church our own Supreme Court is upheld by and large has held up the the right of religious institutions to have to hire people who are in harmony with their their um their values this passage is very worrisome to me in the sense that I don't know why that word unjust discrimination is without but but as father was saying that this you get you just get the sense that there's a kind of a softening of what the teaching is in passages like this and the odd thing I want to make this point cuz I just finished reading the whole document the other thing is who is this document addressed to all right usually it's the bishops meeting as a synod come up with a document presented to the Holy Father however this time the Holy Father was involved in in parts of the drafting not only through the bishops who wrote the passages on this Synod ality but I think in actually in actuality in other passages so he can't be sending a message to himself is that a message to the bishops of the world is it a wish is it a message to young people his father was saying because they're not going to read the document I think it was Bishop Baron early on said look this is a big and a forbidding and complicated document young people just don't read text like this so we've got this text in which lots of this stuff has been inserted and we don't know who it's intended for I think that a lot of this is gonna have to be worked out but it just seems to me that what we've seen in the previous sentence and in some of the ways that different offices at the Vatican have become soft on same-sex attraction that it's a very worrisome thing one more passage father Jerry your reaction to this it reads again that's from that same section in this final document in many Christian communities there are already paths of accompaniment in the faith of homosexual people the synod recommends encouraging such paths these paths help people to understand their own personal history to recognize freely and responsibly their own baptismal call and to recognize the desire to belong to and contribute to the life of the community to discern the best ways to achieve it your reaction this language is very problematic because we know that there are apostolates in the church geared toward people who think homosexuality is a good thing that needs to be embraced this was dignity in United States which was reprobated by the bishops and many other different groups exist that are promoting the normalization of homosexuality there's a wonderful apostle which is now International called courage and that is an apostle which helps people with homosexual problems deal with it in chastity and in love and in integrated personalities this sentence that you just read seems to indicate that we believe that there's a group of people who are homosexual and therefore have that identity which then becomes for them the determining value of their life and that the rest of us have to recognize it and it's just not the case Christian anthropology teaches us that people heterosexual people may have a problem with homosexual attraction but that that can be dealt with through prayer penance and in the case of you know where psychological counseling is useful can help people realize what's the roots of the fact that I've been diverted from my attraction to the other sex to a sexual attraction to someone of my own and you know right now in the Western world there's a government effort to suppress that notion because they want to propagate the idea that homosexuality as normal the church should not fall into that even in a small way we have to really affirm that people who need God's grace in this particular matter will get it without being told falsely that God made you this way and therefore you should stay this way and that you should be welcomed and then if you express it in different ways that this is good I mean is it unjust discrimination to tell two homosexual men you cannot marry is that unjust discrimination of course not that's perfectly normal and but in the minds of the homosexual propaganda wing we're being unfair to those people that's where the fight is right now I want to move on to this the Pope called the final document the work of the Holy Spirit he reminded people the Synod is not a parliament and then he went on to say this I'll put it up on the screen it is a difficult time constant accusations dirty the church now is the time to defend Mother Church from the great accuser with prayer and penance this sounds like again a reference to vegan oh and the vegan OH statement your reaction to this kind of you know using the end of this Synod to take a shot at the accuser or the accusers rather than on the guilty parties aren't they the enemies of the jury there's no sense of urgency still in Rome I can tell you one of the things that is very frustrating when you spend time in Italy is that there is no attention in the Italian press or the Catholic press to the the sex abuse crisis or the questions raised by vegan oh that they just they think that somehow Americans are puritanical and the American bishops have lost control of their own people and that this story is is a kind of a false one but in fact this goes to the heart of the young people were very concerned about the the abuse crisis now I get the impression that the Holy Father does feel that there is a growing division within the church because he asked kept all Catholics during the month of October to pray the rosary the prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel to offset the tendencies toward division I think you know among us because there are are these different these different emotions now that are going on but I think we have to recognize that these emotions don't just exist in a vacuum that people belong to different factions that in fact something has happened not only in the United States but in Chile Honduras Australia Ireland elsewhere and the the uncovering of these homosexual networks and the deep pain it's been caused to the Catholic people by their own children being being abused by by clerics and by even by bishops in some cases as McCarrick and some other cases we know of this is not going to go away it's not going to go inside the church and it's not going to go away now that secular authorities have interested themselves in it so they yeah it doesn't devil try to divide the church of course he does but in this instance the church is going to have to go through a iong period because there's been such a level of corruption that he simply can't be ignored father Jerry I've got to bring us up to speed on this latest story that broke this week Catholic News Service reporting Vatican nun Co former Nunzio Cardinal Agostino Koch Avilan he was the new NCO here in the u.s. he claims he knew of rumors and Rome knew of rumors about misconduct by Theodore McCarrick going back as far as 1994 does this seem to your mind and I a vindication of the viga no testimony and how damaging are these latest revelations do you think well this is showing what many people suspected and what we've discussed that the matter of Cardinal McCarrick was known and was not acted upon now Archbishop Koch Evelyn said that he spoke to Cardinal O'Connor about the matter because Cardinal O'Connor was in the neighboring Diocese of New York and he figured that he would be the person look into it O'Connor reported back to him that he didn't find the matter to be verified and then catch up Allen also said that he did not bring this to the attention of his superiors in Rome and quite frankly that was negligent on his part I'll say it right now if you have a report going on about sexual abuse by a sitting Archbishop in the United States and you simply handle it as a matter of I'll converse with a neighboring Bishop see what he thinks that's not enough now when the Vatican announced that they're going to study all the archives of of the Vatican about the mckarrick matter that was a good move it wasn't sufficient but it's a good move because undoubtedly there have to be other correspondence related to mckarrick that needs to be made public and I think Bob's point is absolutely correct this matter should not be handled as a sideshow that will be slowly drips and drabs coming out the Vatican should set itself a very high standard and say we will make public all that we know about the McCarrick matter so that we can be held to the same level of accountability that we hold individual diocesan bishops to if there's a problem the bishop in Wheeling West Virginia was retired and put under investigation because of a report similar what McCarrick did okay he is out and he's being investigated the mckarrick thing is dragging on and on and on this is not good yeah yeah Bob I want to pick up on this because there's another story this week I mean we heard about Bishop Holley earlier and something is clearly off in the church's governance as it concerns bishops transparency we're seeing some people get passes others who are engaged in heinous crimes are allowed to sit in power and continue to ordain people and appoint people and suggest people as if nothing's going on something is clearly amiss 60 minutes broke a story this weekend a whistleblower the executive assistant of arch of Bishop Malone in Buffalo and one of his priests also spoke on that broadcast she printed documents copied documents her name is Siobhan O'Connor and and she felt she had to come forward and share those and then a father Bob zillio here's what they both had to say the reality of what I saw really left me with no other option because at the end of my life I'm not going to answer to bishop long I'm going to answer to God a lot of cases should have been handled differently they were not a lot of cases probably should have gone to Rome at the time they did that how many of those priests should have been taken out of the priesthood I would argue at least eight or nine how many of them still are in the priesthood here in Buffalo all of them your reaction to this what are we seeing here put this in some wider context well I look I would say that this is the same sort of of conscience matter that vegan Oh felt that vegan knows near the end of his life these people are young younger but still there are things that happen in your life and you have a certain loyalty to the people you work with and they probably expect certain confidentiality but you don't use that personal affection that you have or the fact that there should be some confidentiality in the church to hide a crime when a crime has been committed you have a moral responsibility to come forth I mean you first go to your your your superiors and you write something to do something about it but if they don't do it or they over themselves active in the covering up of something I think that their this is a conscience matter that we may start to see more and more occurring a church and you you can't say that this is just people attacking so-and-so because they belong to a faction or another we're getting down to the nub of a very serious abuse in inside our own beloved mother church that has frankly something to do with homosexuality the people keep denying that that's an element in it but this if this is clearly tied to some some elements of homosexuality in the church that haven't been dealt with sufficiently in the past and are going to have to be dealt with in the future now the father it seems Bob's right we are seeing these people coming forward out of conscience whether it's Bishop Holley vegan oh these whistleblowers in Buffalo it there seems to be a pattern here and it all points to the negligence of bishops in many cases and the misuse of power where does this go Raymond I'll repeat what I said in your broadcast a few months ago the Holy See needs to appoint a tribunal to come in and investigate every archdiocese and diocese in the country to go in there with the power to compel the production of documents to compel testimony from witnesses and then to produce reports which will identify precisely whether or not these charges against the bishop in Buffalo and in other places are true because quite frankly after the Boston scandal in 2002 the Vatican did not do very much to investigate whether other diocese at similar scandals it was left up to the Attorney General in Pennsylvania in the various District Attorney's in that state now we have investigations going on in many states in my own state here in New York there's an investigation going on the Holy See should have gotten ahead of this this is not the way the church needs to operate we talk about communion in the church we talk about a church in which we learn from each other well the Holy See needs to understand the people the United States are absolutely fed up by getting up every morning and reading about another priest of Bishop accused because whistleblowers or some civil authority revealed that why didn't the church own up to these things originally this is what I'd like to know and basically we need canon law to be fortified Cardinal Burke has spoken about this others canon law has to be fortified and mechanisms such as a tribunal to try bishops that is not ad hoc it's permanent and it's known these things need to happen because right now we are wallowing in this mess and the only answer seems to be coming from outside the church right now ya know it seems to be coming to a head and Rome is going about business as usual you know the Synod I think was a kind of glaring into American eyes shocking visual of complacency passivity father Boniface Ramsey who was one of the early whistleblowers against mckarrick by the way came out this week and in an op-ed in commonweal he said the mckarrick thing was a failure of fraternal correction but I think he's underplaying that honestly but he also talked about a glaring lack of initiative in the face of horrible terrific tragic events unfolding in the United States and Rome is doing very little they have to clearly step up and do something soon or they will lose so swathes of the Catholic people the confidence of those people in the United States and that's not being an accuser that's simply stating reality and wanting to save the church as it stands today and its moral voice yeah I I think that in one way Rome could at least deal with some of these earlier problems that cropped up in the mckarrick case what you know what kind of mechanisms took place and this predates Francis this you know the the controversy is swirling around France yeah how can be put this obviously goes back to the reign of john paul ii right these can be bracketed a little bit for the time being but there's something I agree with Father entirely we need a structural change we need an institutional change that is going to recognize that there's an internal dynamic that has gone wrong and it is gonna find some way to hold people accountable in the future and we we know that there are many other cases that are gonna be coming out and this is got to be an embarrassment unless the church makes a move right now I see almost no desire to do that in Rome I talked with a lot of people while I was over during the Synod about these other questions right well and it's it's utterly shocking to me that they don't recognize how important this is for the future the church and the kind of impact that this has about the view that people have of Pope Francis here in the United States and elsewhere it speaks to the moral credibility of the moral voice of the United the church in the United States and the world it's that important my worry is again we're focused on the dying ember of Theodore McCarrick when you have major infernos underway in Buffalo and other parts of the United States and the world and everybody just looks the other way and they're having a dance party and ratifying documents in Rome I think to the Catholic people that visual is unacceptable and I don't know how much longer they will accept that without ramifications before I go we have to address a very disturbing development in communist China authorities destroyed two Marian shrines this week extensively because they were lacking the necessary building permits now this is just after a month it was only a month ago the Vatican signed a deal with Beijing over the appointment of Bishops there seemed to be reproach mom father Jerry what are we seeing here welcome to the world of communist duplicity communist China has a zero interest in the promotion of Catholicism in that country they have total interest in controlling the Catholic Church the Holy See and sad to say the Holy Father have fallen for a typical communist trick which is to pretend that they're on your side and that to do the exact opposite this is an absolute disgrace this agreement that was made with the Chinese communist government precisely because it undercuts what we have taught people for years that fidelity of the Holy Father comes before anything else and Catholics in China were faithful to that now that these churches have been destroyed where is the protest from the Holy See about this where is the vigil in st. Peter's Square to pray for our Communist Chinese Vick the victims of Communist Chinese persecution among the Catholics and others I mean where is the urgency here this we've seen this trick so many times in history was done in Eastern Europe and now in communist China we are subject to that the Communist Chinese government that just destroyed two shrines they're the ones nominating the bishops that are gonna rule the church in that country and the Holy Father has a veto power over that is one of the worst possible ideas you come up with and I rely have to say Raymond I'm glad you have covered this story so well the Catholic media should wake up this is what's happening at Cuba Venezuela Nicaragua when these type governments persecute the church we lose big time and it's not good we should resist this with some prophetic force yeah no well we've featured Cardinal Zen over many years and have been focused on this I'm just a heartbroken that we're seeing this play out Robert royal you two have covered this in the sad history the martyrs in China what does this tell us and the fact that we had a Chinese bishop invited to the Synod you were there for this and he comes in he's fed it we find out after the fact not only is he a bishop he's a voting member of the the Communist Party he actually votes in the in the Parliament there against his own people that he's supposed to represent morally and spiritually your thoughts well you know there's an old phrase that we used to use during the Cold War father Murray and I actually were together in Cuba land when John Paul's was there and we saw this live ourselves we used to talk about the DNA of communism that it's and it's the same absolutely everywhere they they destroy churches there's this duplicity you know and and whatnot now the funny thing about that there were two Chinese bishops yeah it seems from what we can we can gather that the Chinese government told the Vatican that it was gonna send these two guys to the Synod and of course the Vatican had to say well yes well as and they can only come if they're invited so then they were invited we're told but one of the then they both after a week or two decided they had to go back to China because of prior commitment so you know how much they're engaged with the fact of the church and how much they're at they're doing the bidding with the government it's pretty clear they already they already got there they already got their orders and listened to the room enough back to back to the mainland I'm gonna leave it there Robert Royals coming to as well as for the Jerry Murray's commentary is always available at the Catholic thing dot org papal posse thank you both for being here there is a rising tide of violence against Christians in India by Hindu nationals what is happening and what's being done to stop it joining me to discuss is Bishop George Polley perrineville he is from the Diocese of Miao in India if your excellency thank you for being here I want to start with this persecution in India what you are we seeing now are these merely Hindu nationalists that are the the agents of this persecution I would say more than nationalist we should use the word fundamentalist because nationalism is something very broad and it could also be something good fundamentalism is something that confines itself to a very few people and makes it negative and what is so taking it's taking a very subtle form of infiltrating into the all the aspects of life so that the thinking itself is influenced and they have the machinery and the ability to reach out to ordinary people's thinking and so that makes the difficulty that causes the problems so it normalizes it yes he normalizes the persecution and the marginalization of people of faith yes marginalization would be more right than persecution because actually when we speak about persecution per se that's not there because there is no destruction of churches there is no attack on persons right those have not there but subtle ways of making life difficult I've read reports where there are up to 1,200 cases of persecution in the last two years or maybe this marginalization that you speak up to what do you attribute the rise you know over the last couple of years that's because there in the recent past these fundamentalists have gained a lot of control over the over the situation in the country and so the administration in general is either silent or just letting it go no administration is strong enough to tell them enough is enough one of the things you keep hearing from these people that you your persecutors are that there are forced conversions you all are forcing particularly people in tribal areas to convert is that part of the narrative that they're trying to create that is a description that they give but far from the reality because I live and I walk among some of the remotest tribal areas of the country mm-hmm and you can ask hundreds of thousands of people who have become Christians no element of force no element of firm incentives are some would say none of these people have seen that there is something a noble about Christianity something uplifting them and so they accept it it is not conversion at all but it is a transformation aha tell me about this history of your diocese you've been there for 40 years now tell me the sense of what you've seen I mean it really has exploded from 9,000 to now 90 thousand yeah believers yes Catholics I would say it is just a natural growth of people because earlier till they came in contact with Catholicism they had no way of going to a good school they had no contact with the outside world there were small tribes can find it their village not their little area right but getting in touch with the church they found that they were becoming by members of a huge family worldwide and that gave them a sense of greater dignity and also their accessibility to schools not only in that state we did not have any school but in the whole region they had easy access to schools to medical facilities so this made the bond deeper are you having trouble maintaining keeping those facilities open or are these individuals now in charge starting to impinge upon your right to run these for so that I have to answer it in with a yes and no okay because we get full understanding and support from the the state government they've been could they see the good yeah in fact in one of the talks our previous Chief Minister he said we are very grateful to the Christians because these tribes who are so quarrelsome and wild by becoming Christians they're become so peaceful and so we are really grateful to the church the Chief Minister mr. dodgy canto of happy memory he was a Buddhist but he acknowledged this in public so that is the attitude that the local administration has so where is the difficulty coming from so the difficulty comes from the the bureau's bureaucracy that deals with the external from outside the state like maybe permissions registrations on the national level some problems but the state government is trying to and to help us out of that what can we in the United States do to help you and your people and why have you come here to the United States I've come precisely because the aid to the church in need they facilitated some of these meetings and they asked me if I could come under share my mission experience with others and that's my purpose in being here because we have a church that I would count as a miracle of the 20th century it is very much alive and active and that did not come out as the result of preaching but it is a result of our sharing our gospel values it sprang from sharing and so the our church is led by planted by and nurtured by the lay people particularly the youth and I won't share this experience with others hmm very good your excellency thank you for being here pleasure to have you on the show and our prayers go with you and hope you can rely on yours you can learn more about the suffering church around the globe and how you can help by visiting aid to the church in need at church in need dot org that's all the time we have for now until next week the show continues on Facebook and Twitter you can like me on Facebook you can follow me on Twitter the links are at Raymond Arroyo comm and get ready for book three in the will Wilder series it's coming in February will Wilder the relic of perilous Falls and will Wilder The Lost staff of Wonders book one and two make fantastic Christmas gifts and then everybody will be ready for the big release on February 19th they're all available at the ewtn religious catalogue and at bookstores everywhere get them now be sure to join us next week until then we'll be starting the world over for all that is seen and unseen on behalf of the staff and crew of EWTN news thank you for watching I'm Raymond Arroyo for Washington I know [Music] you

Channel: EWTN

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Length: 56min 37sec (3397 seconds)

Published: Sat Nov 03 2018