Women Struggle With Pornography Too w/ Rachael Killackey

[Music] ah good rachel g'day how are you hey i'm good how are you i'm fantastic i got in from texas as you know super late last night yes yes quite the journey quite the dream american airlines all like all i wanted to do i didn't know if you were going to be allowed to drop the actual name of the airline or not but yeah i think so yeah delta's the best no southwest why because it's the chick-fil-a of airlines no you can't do that that's uh it's uh what do you call it it's uh it's circular you're assuming they're the best and well southwest you can like get the app you can change your flight at any point you get the free carry-on and checked bag get better snacks and drinks do they still do the thing where they joke up the front with you i do not like that yeah they did that yesterday when we were flying here they don't need like a comedian flying my plane i don't i just need you to be very professional mm-hmm really was the joke good where the jokes get yeah they were they were fine it was an older lady flight attendant but the the other flight attendant was really intense and got very mad at me for not paying attention during that really the demonstration yeah you have to wear a mosque i think all flights right uh yeah it's like a federal but i think people are gradually like pushing limits like i don't care what are you gonna do and i think people are doing less yeah i saw a bit of that yesterday i don't think we pulled that off but i saw a bit of it so i was in tyler and i was there for fourth of july mm-hmm it was fantastic so good living in america yeah texas for the fourth of july would be fantastic yeah we're like 700 acres of property mm-hmm what did you do for fourth of july we actually caught what i heard was the largest uh fireworks show in the united states this year nashville had i think the largest because new york canceled theirs because of cougars covenant yeah yeah so we were stunk if they if they'd set them off and everyone had to watch it on live stream yeah no no they just they just straight up canceled it so nashville kind of took the stage on that one so we went downtown we were stuck downtown in traffic for like an hour an hour and a half or something like that but it was well worth it and when did you move to nashville about a year ago a little over a year ago have you seen the daily wire guys yet yes yeah a couple of them go to my parish or the parish we went to for a while yeah so we don't they go to the earlier mass apparently so we haven't seen them a ton because we go to the later mass but you like living in nashville i love it i love it it's so fun it's just like vibrant and uh the catholic community out there is actually kind of steadily growing so it's beautiful it's really interesting but everybody's just very artsy and you know it's just like it's a vibe nashville has a vibe yeah and then you just got married congratulations to tommy who's sitting in the corner over here congrats that's beautiful was a lovely day lovely oh yes yes it was it was awesome it's just so good it's like yeah it's perfect right now i mean at least i think so i don't know what he thinks he's nodding but yes it's been beautiful awesome well thank you for coming on the show and thank you so much for addressing this issue with women and pornography because i've been talking about this topic for about 10 12 years right and i'm so i'm not i'm not embarrassed i suppose i think it was just what everyone was saying like when i began this ministry like 12 years ago kind of traveling and speaking i would say just what i heard other people say yeah i would say well you know men struggle with pornography and women struggle with like romance novels or something and i don't want to fully abandon that because i don't know how many men are reading the shades of stupid or the real equivalent right there's clearly a distinction going on but obviously it's not true that women chose pornography and i began seeing that as i would travel around and speak and encounter every time i speak i encounter these lovely women who who tell me you know they're hooked on porn and stuff like that so first of all thank you for doing something about this of course thank you for encouraging me to do it yeah yeah so i'd love maybe before we kind of talk about how women can maybe overcome and your particular ministry we'll have to hear a bit about your story yeah um so i was raised in a very devout catholic family and um my parents were very careful with technology and stuff so i you know unfortunately found some loopholes but i was exposed to pornography through social media actually um it was fan fiction on pinterest which actually is interesting and it's interesting that you mentioned romance novels because that's actually the gateway for a lot of women is that fan fiction or just reading material we typically don't start with videos um it's typically audio or reading is what i've seen what i've seen um so i was 14 or 13 when i first was exposed to it on pinterest and then i was hooked you know um it just kind of pulled me in and i remember thinking that it was wrong like knowing you know maybe this is pornography and then kind of convincing myself that it wasn't i was like no this is just a story that's like a little more adult i guess you know and i i kind of had my my reasons um but it became kind of this secret crutch um typically for just emoting you know like feelings of loneliness or boredom or anger that was a huge one if i was hurt or angry um that would be where i turned and so it steadily got you know more and more difficult and i moved beyond that reading material um i remember getting into this argument in high school with this guy in my class who said um i just remember him saying like pornography is okay you know like every guy needs to you know watch pornography or whatever and i like let him have it i mean i was 16 and i laid into this guy um where did that come from where did that come from like passion uh you know i think it was partly like my own disdain with myself oddly enough like reflecting yeah it was like a um a knowledge that what i was turning to in those secret moments was was wrong um but it also was yeah just a passion against the the concept in general you know like it's it's awful it's deplorable um and i was just very angry with his passivity towards it and his justification of it so we got in this massive argument and i think after that is when i started to take ownership of okay if i'm going to speak this way if i'm going to get this mad at people i i have to start doing something for myself too and at this point in high school are you watching visual pornography or are you still just reading yeah so when you say your parents were really careful about technology what did that look like um i did not have my own computer until i was late high school and i was working on college courses so my parents had kind of a lot of yeah a lot of proper censorship of what we were looking at but i did when i kind of started falling more it was when we got a shared laptop amongst me and my younger siblings and i had more time on it and they probably locked it down did they with covenant eyes or something no they didn't i don't think they were aware of it yet okay yeah um which i think is a huge part of you know working in ministries like this is exposing parents to um what they can do and kind of empowering them like you because it's terrifying yeah yeah as a parent yeah yeah yeah you can just be crippling you just do nothing you don't even get your kids technology you don't and i think that's probably a good thing in some cases but it just sort of um yeah scares you into just passivity you don't do anything right but then of course there's going to be interaction with technology and if you haven't done something proactive then stuff like yeah interest stories thing oh gosh yeah and my i think you know my parents thought pinterest was you know entirely innocent if they knew that i was using it at all you know yeah um and i wasn't allowed to get a smartphone until i was about 16. um and then my senior year when i started really kind of owning i need to make a change i actually got rid of my smartphone so i woke up one day and i was like i'm done i'm done with this and i like went to the verizon store and i stood behind this grandma who was picking out a phone with her daughter and she was like i just want something simple i want something with not too many buttons and with a tiny screen yeah yeah exactly like i looked at me he's like what are you looking for i was like i'll have whatever she's like just give me something with less access so i had that for a year and that was super helpful like into college um not having a smartphone was hugely helpful and even now i still have my smartphone like locked down i don't have internet on it i don't have apps i don't i mean it's it is a phone just a quick shout out not that they're sponsoring us but they should um have you seen the uh what is the gab phone yeah yeah the gab phone i think that's um gosh like i tried doing the light phone yeah my husband has life dude i hate it so much i hate it it looks cool you look like a hipster and you're a cooler person than i am to own that but you know what i realized when i got the light phone is that people like obviously the technology changes the way people communicate yeah people don't text expecting a one-word response anymore they text in paragraphs yeah and then you're like this it's still really hard don't you find it hard to text on that thing yeah yeah yeah so i it looks awesome but i just found that so difficult that i went back to this and just locked it down but i'm thinking the gab phone might be the way to go for many parents out there and i think it might be the first phone i get my kid and so for those who are aware of it it's basically a smartphone that you can't go on the internet you can't receive or send photographs wow but you can text like a smartphone you know someone texts you you can text a full paragraph back wow i don't think it has directions it has music but it's like really hard you've got to plug it in yeah it's like the light phone i like that yeah yeah that is music now podcasting oh yeah that's kind of cool so gab phone i think is the way i think i used to say get a flip phone i used to tell persons but they're just so stupid and they're so hard to use these days well you kind of have a pendulum swing too when you get people who go from the smartphone to the just a regular flip phone yeah and they'll end up going back immediately yeah because they don't know how to function on something that doesn't feel quite as smart i would recommend parents checking out gab i think it's a mormon company everything the mormons do regarding family and safety is incredible like vid angel fight the new drug good pictures better that's amazing so gab phone i think yeah yeah yeah i recommend that too but that's cool so yeah okay so but now you lock it you lock it all down which is just a beautiful thing to do for your own internal life oh yeah oh yeah i recommend it whether or not you struggle with porn because i i feel like i'm a better communicator because of it in many ways like i would still prefer phone calls over text um the screen is still it grabs you a smartphone screen is still really attractive but and it's designed to be addictive so you can have your little shortcuts like i'm gonna make it black and white and i'm gonna but you often go back to it yeah you have too much power okay so you're 16 years old there's an old woman in front of you you say i want what she wants so what phone did you get was it i got a flip phone yeah i got a flip phone um and i kept that because that was my senior year actually so i think i was 17 when i did that and then i went to college at avi maria and um i was still wrestling a lot and i think i had made some headway because of getting rid of my smartphone but when i got to college um first of all did your parents say anything about you getting a dumb phone they were proud of me and did you they know why you did that no no no they didn't um my parents kind of figured out slowly i mean they would know better than i when they figured out um because i can't remember i never directly told them i never said this is what's going on right this this interview will be their first uh introduction they have never no never heard of no i wrote an article for an outlet that i write for sometimes called the young catholic woman um i wrote an article my senior year about women struggling with pornography and i think that was when they kind of were like oh that's a clue um that's a clue our 18 year old daughter is right you know yeah but they were they were always so gracious um so gracious about it and they've been so supportive parents sorry i didn't mean to throw you off track you were in college no you're good um i yeah i got to college and i think being in an environment like immersed in catholicism i had started my theology major i was just excited and surrounded by so many good catholics and by the faith all the time i mean there were like five adoration chapels on campus and like mass every day and stuff i think that really convicted me to kind of take that final step but um what was the final push over the edge of the cliff was this really nice guy was actually pursuing me and um i was like so ashamed of myself because i was like he has no idea that i'm dirty that i'm just like damaged and somebody as pure as him does not you know deserve somebody like me so he was actually that final push and we dated briefly but he was a very good friend of mine and um it's interesting because i think a lot of women run into that too it's that call to relationship that or a higher relationship that ends up kind of being that push over the edge i think it's a different kind of motivation than men which is really cool but i ended up going to this healing retreat or this healing adoration night early on in college and my favorite book is the great divorce by c.s lewis or it's a tie between that one until we have faces by c.s lewis both good um but there's a scene in the great divorce about this red lizard or this ghost trying to enter heaven with the red lizard around his shoulders are you aware of that yeah um and i had reflected on that a few different times and that had been coming to my mind um a lot just in my own struggle and then i went to the ceiling retreat and i walked in feeling like this is what i'm going to confront at this adoration night um and there was a panel still going from a previous talk and i kid you not i walked in and the mic gets handed i didn't even hear the question the mic gets handed to one of the speakers and he said there's this scene in the great divorce by c.s lewis about this ghost with a red lizard wrapped around his shoulders and i was like what um and yeah for people who don't know like basically this ghost is trying to enter heaven with um with this red lizard wrapped around his shoulders and an angel is trying to kill it and the lizard represents lust yes louis wanted the lizard to represent lust um so i just kind of knelt down and that night was the night it got dealt with where like the agreement was kind of broken and i just i felt the lord very clearly say like you are not leaving this room until we address this um and so like just yeah that was one of the most beautiful nights of my life because it was me finally kind of wearing that in front of god and being like this is what i've been doing and i'm so done i'm so tired of this i want to be a woman deserving of the attention of this kind of man this is what i want um and i just remember like confessing it and then getting prayed over by a prayer team and then there was like a blessed oil or something that somebody anointed me with and then you got to do individual exposition so you went to the front of the room and you knelt and the priest would come in front of you with the monstrance and i just remember sobbing as i'm like kneeling and waiting for my turn and the priest comes in front of me and i'm just asking him like lord do i really get to be done do i get to be done you know please let me be done and then like he comes in front of me and i look up and like at the eucharist and all i hear is it's finished it is finished and i'm a wreck i was like sobbing on the floor um but after that yeah it got easier it got much easier it wasn't completely done i don't think necessarily those spiritual transformation moments thank you for being honest about that oh yeah because it's yeah i think there is a temptation especially when you have something of a platform like yourself and myself when you do have a powerful experience yeah and then it isn't done in a sense right you're like well okay to make my testimony more powerful i won't share that i still am tempted or still struggle or struggle after that but i think it's so more important and more helpful for people when we when we talk just like you just said that it's it was it got easier it was a process yeah because we're mind body and soul so i addressed the soul piece of it and then i had to enter into battling it from the mind and body angles so it took a few more months and then i had my last fall december of that year and have not looked back since glory to jesus christ yes and there's been i think isolated moments um of you know temptations or falls but it's never been uh regular ever again so i was 18 19 at that point yeah i was 19. so that's kind of my own um encounter with it um and dealing with the shame was like a whole nother you know aspect healing from that took years um was that the first time you went to confession for it or had you gone to confession prior and what is that like as a woman going to confess that sin it's so hard yeah talk it talk about that because i'm sure we have a lot of young women watching who are like yeah i haven't confessed it and i can't imagine doing that yeah i think it's hard because um i used a different wording for a long time i would say you know i did stuff that was harmful to my chastity i did something yeah like i was disrespectful to my body yeah and you're like did you eat 20 doughnuts yeah one day you clarified yeah no i i used different terminology which i think a lot of people do at first um but i'm a big advocate for just name the demon just name it um i think and i think so first sin not the other things you're less ashamed of yeah you know what i mean like i lied i i spoke badly to my friend or no just late looked at pornography this many times masturbated so many times fornicated whatever it may be just lay it on the table and the the priest's response have always been super gracious um i yeah i had one where i remember going in and i was like he's gonna you know how priests will talk to you after your confession a little bit and they'll kind of be like so why are you so angry or why did you do this you know and kind of help you dive into it i always thought i was like this is going to be the thing that they dive into i've got you know i'm a woman confessing looking at pornography they're going to focus on this and they always chose something else which i thought was a testament to that this isn't you don't look at pornography because you just want to you look at it because you're angry because you're lonely because you're scared because you're ashamed you know you um it's it is an outlet for something much deeper and the priest that i confess this to always focused on where this was coming from and i'm super grateful that they had the grace to do that and the wherewithal to do that but i think it is as a woman it is i think twice as hard to kind of take that step when was the first time you actually confessed it without beating around the bush or using different terms college yeah college yeah it was in college and i think that was part of the ownership of healing you know is um yeah naming the demon for what it actually was i heard a talk and i'm sure you have two by audrey assad it was a fantastic testimony very the first one i ever heard yeah yeah and she had this great line that when men struggle with pornography they're imprisoned but at least they're all in the same cell talking to each other encouraging each other how many days has it been for you and she's like when us women struggle it's like we're in solitary confinement and we don't believe any other woman has ever struggled in the history of mankind yeah speak to that a bit i mean i think this was evident and i didn't really tell any of my friends i didn't feel like i could i finally told my best friend in high school i think my senior year she was the first person i told um i ended up telling my older brother at one point too but when i told my friend she had never struggled with anything like it and thank god she was super gracious and merciful but you women don't tell each other you don't really tell your friends where men can easily find an accountability partner women can't find that that's part of why you know i started something so that they can find accountability but i remember when i started speaking about it in college because a couple years after i kind of stopped i started giving talks at retreats or just different events on campus or local parishes and what it takes for women is somebody else standing up first and saying hey you know this is me um otherwise they will never speak up that's that's why i i don't mean this is sound patronizing that's why i am so proud of you thank you i'm so proud of you for doing this because i i travel i speak i'm always encountering women who come up to me and say things like i want to start something for women but like i'm afraid and i get it right yeah and maybe i don't get it i don't get the shame that they may feel to come out publicly at a university or whatever to start a woman's group but god bless your courage and the power you know the lord's given you to start something because as you say we need someone to step up forward and step forward and say this is me yeah and i think there has to be a calling and a grace to do that i've i've known some women who definitely have the testimony and the carers and the power to do that but they don't feel called um to put themselves out there and for some reason people ask me if it bothers me or if it bothers my husband or different things it's never bothered me and it never bothered him which is a huge grace but i've literally never been bothered and i think that's and one day if i am bothered then i need to examine whether or not i'm still called to do this um but i think that's a grace is that no like i'm the same as you that happened to me people would always ask the same thing i'm like no and part of me part of why i don't care is i'm continually talking to people who this is their secret struggle so i'm like okay maybe you think no one struggles with this and that's why you think i should be embarrassed about this but i encounter everybody struggling yeah exactly exactly it's a great so was there a woman who did that for you who stood up and shared her story that gave you the courage to do it no no i saw audrey assad's talk at some point um during my more heavy recovery and that was huge for me because i loved audrey i loved her music so i saw that but i had already kind of been putting in a ton of legwork at that point so it was encouragement to keep going but no there there was not um there's not anybody in particular who you know really kicked me off if that makes sense so when did you share your story publicly for the first time how did that go and what were the conversations like afterwards yeah so the first time i ever publicly shared it was actually this thing called a cardboard testimony at a young life camp so i worked for young life which is an ecumenical kind of youth ministry for a while in college um we took our kids to summer camp and you're supposed to do this thing called a cardboard testimony where on the front you have your sin and then on the back you have how jesus redeemed you so you hold it up and then you flip it um and they pick leaders to do that and you were like asked to submit your thing like what you would put on the cardboard on a sheet and turn it into the camp directors and i put mine on i was like okay lord if it's time you know you'll pick me and this is uh close to a year after kind of that experience in adoration so i was i was a little bit out of recovery but not entirely um like a year clear or something i think that year mark is a huge deal for people so i wasn't quite there i was still very nervous um and the next day they throw the list up on the screen of like who's getting up there and my name was first and i was like oh okay it's time um and i my friends were there and actually the guy i dated briefly was there um and their all of their compliments were just beautiful they were so affirming and um just like my my young life team was so affirming but one of the camp directors actually came up to me afterward and he just took my hand he was like thank you thank you and he's like i have talked to so many people so many young women who refuse to tell anybody this like thank you you have no idea what you've done and um and i had this like group of teenage boys come up they're like we just want to hug you and they like glory and it was yeah it was so sweet so that was the first time i got out there and then six months later i did my first women's retreat and uh gave a talk on it and shared my testimony so it slowly started building what a blessing from our lord that he and he allowed that providentially to be the first experience of sharing your story and the incredible encouragement you got from your friends yeah yeah and people didn't even know right right and i think having that affirmation from my team from strangers from this relationship i had had you know it just like put closure on the whole thing in a really beautiful way and i think that experience definitely gave me courage to share more so i'm very very grateful for that experience at camp because it was also i didn't have to talk it was just written on a cardboard and because i think i said caged by an addiction to pornography flipped it over and said set free by christ's love i think that's what i said and it was just very simple and straightforward but they put it out there hmm um how i was going to ask you about like how do girls tell their parents but i suppose since most girls don't have a public ministry doing this they may not need to tell their parents so maybe we can begin with how important is it that a lady find an accountability partner if you want to use that language and what does that look like i think it's crucial i think part of why i've started speaking about it and started something is because i want nobody to go through it alone like i did and some of my magdala team also recovered alone and they all say that they're like i don't want to have to recover or i don't want anybody else to have to recover the way i did alone um i think it's crucial i think having people you can trust and turn to is crucial um and they can go about that through something like magdala but i encourage women to find somebody close in their life whether that's you know a sibling or a trusted friend i don't recommend significant others um as accountability partners and some of them do have accountability in their relationship and i think that works for some people but very occasional i recommend finding a female and why don't you recommend someone's got a boyfriend right now why would you say he can't be your accountability partner or it's not optimal it bogs people down is what i've noticed um in my ministry in college i also talked to a lot of women whose boyfriends were addicted um and they would make try to make their girlfriends accountability partners and it would just really weigh these women down um because you know this is the person they honor and love and respect and i think in our discerning of vocation with and i think having too much information that constant exposure to somebody's sin um i think it i think it weighs the relationship down and it also can become the focal point of the relationship and i think that's dangerous is when it's centered around this person's recovery from porn it's like no you kind of gotta put your focus on a lot more positive things but it's hard to do when there's that need for accountability in the relationship and if the girl is kind of in a dating relationship and bogged down by pornography should she even be in a dating relationship i've changed my opinion on this a couple times to be honest um and where i stand now is i think it's very individual i've known i don't know if you agree but i've known couples where um either the guy or the girl or both are struggling and they say all right we're linking arms we are finding accountability we're going to counseling we're doing this together and they do and it's powerful um i've seen where you know either side kind of commits to that and that's kind of always been my standard is okay is this person saying like please don't leave me you know i'll get through it eventually or are they saying hey here are all the steps i'm taking to recover you know please pray for me while i do but you are free to go i think when i've seen men or women say to their significant other who isn't struggling like you're free to go while i figure this out that's an indicator of like they're not going to depend on this attachment there yeah detachment exactly so i think it's an individual basis i don't know how you feel about it but yeah yeah no i i think it's important to point out that a lot of this advice is individual yeah um i think what happens sometimes is we experience one method working well and then we kind of universalize it we make it like a blanket response yeah and uh it's not always helpful so it is important i think to to realize that maybe this something needs to be discerned with a priest with a therapist with good friends with your significant other um so a girl girls always say this to me after my talks that i give at high schools and colleges like okay i want to find someone to be accountable to but how do i do that how do i start the conversation who do i know who i can trust what do you say to them i think um i mean i'm a very blunt person generally so i think any time i've started the conversation i try not to like try not to be dramatic about it where um when i told my own friends i wasn't like you know i've been wearing this for a long time and here this is i kind of just tried to not be casual about it as a superficial but a little more straightforward yeah be like hey i've been really struggling with this lately can you help me you know i love it um and i think kind of treating it like uh if you needed help with a problem with lying you know or overeating overeating yeah anger that sort of thing um just treating it like any other sin was really helpful when i brought it up with other women um because the response was always from my friends it was always oh yeah absolutely um and then sometimes they would be like yeah me too actually and it became a productive conversation but i think it's when you place the drama on it um is when it becomes really really hard to admit it to people but if you shift your own mindset to this is another sin and i do want to get rid of it but this is just another sin so i'm going to bring this up like i'm bringing up you know my problem with gossip you know i think that's a good one to compare it to for women is gossip because i think we need help from other women with that but yeah that's that's really cool it kind of reminds me of when parents want to talk to their children about sex and maybe they have their own baggage and wounds from the culture or society and so it's almost like you don't need to be weird about it it's actually not a weird thing to talk about you're making it weird because you've been hurt and i get it that's an understandable response perhaps but it's almost something similar like it can be as awkward as you need it if as you want it to be or as you will have it be right but just saying different hey i struggle with this and i need help yeah pray with me could we talk about it yeah you know yes yeah i like that yeah yeah and it normalizes the conversation better than the drama does it makes it more like yeah yeah makes it easier yeah just in general to make it a conversation for women um and i i'll often say something i'm not sure how helpful this is when women say how do i know who i can trust i always say you already know who you can trust so go tell them yeah exactly if you can trust them with other stuff exactly you can trust them with this yeah but that's that's important i've heard someone say that some things can only be healed by the antiseptic light of truth this is one of those things because you said earlier that gosh if he knew you know or if people knew they i wouldn't be lovable i'm not worth sticking around for but when you can share with a friend and they don't leave and they are encouraging yeah they're sticking around speaks that truth to you yeah you aren't your sin you're a lovely person creating the image likeness of god and we all struggle with stuff and i'm not going anywhere exactly and i think the worst reaction people can have is shock right when we say that you know if they're like how dare you you know or the i didn't know women struggled with that i get that all the time when i say like what i do or what i'm passionate about and people are like oh i had no idea women even struggle with that and i always correct them i say don't even say that again please don't say that to anybody other than me yeah that's right because that's not helpful did you ever see that talk i gave for franciscan i gave a talk seventh exposed about five years ago i think i i think i did i think i probably did one of the first things i said was if you have said in the past like women that struggle with this please never say that again it's false and offensive and there was a cheer that erupted mainly i think beginning from the women yeah i was like whoa that was that's cool like so i just say that every time now like don't say that again yes you should be more ashamed of saying that yes women confessing please keep saying that because yeah and i think that is even from people in ministries that i was supposed to be collaborating with and they're like well we don't know if we want to collaborate because you know we don't really think this is a huge problem and i just kind of like like every time where i'm like really okay and you just made it more of a problem so okay this is interesting so i would have thought that we're getting past this but in some ways we're not no that might be and probably is because most women still aren't sharing this in a public way yeah i think younger generations are starting to wake up because the statistics are closing in right of like men addicted versus women addicted i mean it is closing in um but no on my on my campus i had to fight perspectives when i started a support group at ave i had to fight some perspectives even within leadership and that was really hard but i also had a lot of support from leadership so i want to say there was definitely more support than opposition but sometimes the perspective of uh my classmates my peers was was definitely like a oh like how many women do you have kind of thing like a little bit like you know is that actually a thing and a little bit of doubt um and i just kind of always laughed at it like i think that was my reaction was always like like if only you knew like do you want to come run the support group because you'll see how many how many people need it um but yeah so i think i think people do that because um i think they're scared of admitting it's a reality i think you know it's a scary thing to look at it's sort of like when i talk to teenagers and principals don't want to look at it i think part of it is if i look at it i get to deal with it yeah and they don't want i think also men don't want to think that women struggle with it they want to see women as like the bedrock of purity right interesting um and so i think a lot of the opposition i got was from men because they didn't yeah interesting yeah i'm so sorry good for you for fighting through that no i mean i think it is i think it is just that that limited um perspective but also yeah the fear of encountering it you know in the women they know and love um i think that's a scary thought that that purity being and that beauty being compromised which is probably where the shame comes from it's this idea that women shouldn't struggle with it not only oh yeah don't they but they shouldn't it's this as you say like there's this perception that women should please god be different because if they're not we're all screwed or something i don't know what it is right and i think when you're struggling with it as a woman you definitely have that thought as i am i even feminine because i'm struggling with a masculine thing um and so a lot of women who come into magdala or came into the group at ave um they're dealing with literally an identity crisis of what it means to be a woman and i think that's part of why it's so necessary to not place any judgment or any like lack of perspective even like i had no idea because that's often so innocently said but women are literally having an identity crisis on like what femininity is and am i even capable of living this out as a whole because of this so so important what you just said there yeah that is so important it actually was audrey assad in her talk that said when she was struggling with pornography and didn't tell anybody and then she went to a group and they divided the women into this section the men over here and they told the women that we know you don't struggle with pornography or anything like that and she literally said am i like a man in a woman's body right now maybe 20 years ago you could have asked that question and quickly went well no that's stupid but not just today apparently you might be yeah you know it's um it brings up a lot of questions i think one of the biggest ones that comes up for women because we identify so much with our relationships is that am i capable of getting married um and i actually spoke to a professor of mine at ave dr valdstein he's actually stupid yeah he's stephenville now um he was my theology of the body professor that semester you are a blessed woman oh yes afterwards yeah it was amazing it was incredible the translator of the theology of the body and love responsibility for those who underwear yes yes three doctorates i think yeah something like that i don't even know how many languages the guy can like read and speak but um in the months following my like major recovery that first semester at college my second semester i had t.o.b with him and he does this wonderful thing where he has conversational like oral exams so you go in and he asks you just a couple questions he wants to have a conversation with you to see if you actually have mastery of the content um and he asked me a couple questions and i got through my exam and then he asks he's like is there anything else you want to talk about is there anything else like any other questions you have and i just told him i was like dr falchstein i've struggled with this and like can i ever have this can i ever have um what your what you've taught us can never have that with anybody and he looked at me and he's like well he looked away for a while i remember he like paused and then he just smiled and he said um lust did not attack you because you can't love lust attacked you because your love is meant to change the world and that was yeah literally like this i'm not crying you're crying shut up no but that's the line that i tell in in all women in any talk i give that line again yeah lust did not attack you because you can't love lust attacked you because your love is meant to change the world and i cried when he told me that and i've reflected on it many times since um and then i i say that in every talk or any article i write it's that like this is it guys like you are not dirty or shameful or you know a monster you actually were attacked by this because you love you love powerfully um and that's what actually empowers women to start to recover is like no you are a powerhouse of love and that's why you struggle with this he would not kick you like if you know if this wasn't if you weren't like running like steam a full steam ahead like into love he would not try to trip you and um i think that's that's like my crux of my ministry is just no you are made for love and that's why actually satan's just trying to thwart this um so press into that you know what you were made for and that's that's it i heard a line which i'll share with you and get you to comment on as it pertains to women especially um when we run from our shame we legitimize its claims against us yeah wow wow yeah yeah i think there's a lot of people who as you say like i don't want to talk about it i don't want to name it i don't want to say that i'm addicted to pornography because then i'd have to face whatever the heck this is i don't want to say it in those words to a priest i don't want to share it with my boyfriend or my friends yeah yeah speak to that wow yeah i mean i think satan likes to keep us all isolated right that's that's just this is wheat yes yeah and he likes to keep us in the dark um and i think as long as you yeah gosh i love that as long as you run away from your shame you legitimize its claims yeah you give power to it it's voice when you let it have power over here you turn around yeah like you're not and address it and find that you have a father who loves you who isn't scandalized by your sin who knows what you want in the first place i mean one of the things that's so helpful i was speaking to a woman yesterday what thomas aquinas has to say about our desire for things blessed us so much because of course he says you know that that evil is an is an absence and whenever we sin we're choosing what we perceive to be the good yeah even the suicide commits suicide because of something he perceives to be good namely a lack of suffering you know right when we go to pornography there is a good we perceive yes maybe it's the good of being affirmed or being found strong and desired and desirable etc etc etc and so like look at all of these things and as sister miriam has said to me be more curious and gentle with yourself be curious about your sin yeah and gentle because the shameful kind of hard approach doesn't actually help it's actually counterproductive mm-hmm i love that yeah i love that i think yeah this is something that we talk about when i ran pure and hard at ave and then now in magdala the first like session i do in small groups is talking about desire and dreams um because that's the first thing i want to know about women is what do you actually desire what do you want what dreams do you have and what dreams is this getting in the way of because i think when you make women identify with their good desires and with their wants and their needs it it makes the thing an enemy it removes it from them that's a tactic i've seen work really well in my own life but also in the women that we've worked with um and also like teaching them your desires your good desires your dreams tell me a lot more about you than your struggle with porn you know struggling with porn's boring it's average right but like your dreams and desires are what make you unique it's what tells me you know what god created you to do it tells me about your vocation um and teaching women that that's what i want to know about you in this group is what do you want you know that's always the first question is what do you want and why do you think you're getting it here you know and like where can we actually all go get it and empowering them to yeah i think be more curious i like that line from system i find sometimes in my kind of dialogues with with young men especially after talks is helping them realize that they don't have to stop looking at porn if they don't want to is actually helpful wow let me explain what i mean i had a young man come up to me at a focus conference years and years ago and i won't say where even though there's tens of thousands of people there so i'm not giving away anything but he came up to me and was telling me how difficult it was to stop looking at pornography have you heard me share this i don't think so i said i i empathized at first because i agree with him this is of course a difficult thing yeah and i began suggesting things to him that might be of some use and to everything i offered he dismissed yeah i've tried kavanaugh's i didn't what it works i don't do it anymore and do you have an accountability partner no there's no one in my area and like everything i offered he just dismissed and i went okay time to smack this guy and so i said all right well just look at porn then like you have wi-fi up in your bedroom like just go and like masturbate to pornography and he looked up at me now don't worry i wouldn't have let him leave if he had went cool but i knew he wasn't going to say that and he looked up at me and said well i don't want to do it and i went okay well shut up man up and like let's make some bloody good decisions yeah i really do think that i mean you can sin as much as you like you'll see how bland and boring your life becomes and you'll see how wide the gates of hell are that's an option for you keep going down that road if you want really you have that option yeah i often think just realizing you have that option shows you that you actually don't want it yeah so it's like would you like to keep looking at porn like if the church says you can yeah would you like to and i think most people would be a god no no i don't want it yeah you know yeah i think i ask a similar question but i like the strength with which you articulate that because i ask the second question is you know what do you want and then my second question with anybody who sits down with me like a woman who sits down with me is okay what are you willing to do like tell me straight up what are you willing to do you know what do you what do you think you have to do um that's a good question yeah you're not willing to do yeah because i've i've had women who aren't willing to get covered in ice or get rid of their smartphone for a time or put blocks any kind of block on their computer um and i kind of say like okay then i i can't help you you know talking with me isn't going to help you like you you have to do this you have to choose this um i've talked with men who do that where they're like yeah i don't know i'll do it eventually and it's like okay then you know nobody can be of any help to you um it is kind of that like heaven helps those who help themselves kind of thing which can get problematic in some areas but i think in this one it's very very true you have to choose at some point now yes right now exactly and there's and if there's any uming or ouring it's like well remain stuck in your sin then yeah see how that goes for you and anybody who's been addicted knows what it feels like to reason with it i reason with it for years where it's like okay like you know i'll try oh no and finally it was that one night that i was like i am so sick and tired of this i want this out i'm done and a lot of people have to hit that rock bottom before anything one thing father sean kilculley said on my recent interview is you have to break up with pornography you have to fire it you have to say like thank you for trying to be a thing that helped me get through you know my awkward childhood and when my parents were angry at me like you were there for me like you were there it's almost like a breakup but you've got to get of course it doesn't give you what it promised but there is a sense in which it gave you something yeah if it didn't give you something you wouldn't go back for it wow it's like if sin looked like sin you'd be like no that's stupid but it's like the worm on the hook and you have to acknowledge the worm you have to say i like it like i like masturbating i like looking at pornography it feels really good like when i'm stressed out it's it's like it it can feel great and yeah i feel like crap afterwards but there's something it gives me and i think like acknowledging that boldly and then saying but i have to break up with you i have to fire you and i i'm going to need something else to take your role because this isn't working sorry i like that i like that mindset but like why is it i'm turning to it in the first place and what is it that yeah yeah that's really helpful and i think the the spirit behind it like converses with us i didn't i think lewis illustrates this in the great divorce is when the ghost is trying to say goodbye to that red lizard it starts chattering in his ear and it goes louder and louder and louder where it's like okay i'll behave i'll be better i'll be better you know like i'll do less it's fine you know and starts trying to convince him um that it's not that i'm gonna break its back yeah you literally have to snap its neck yeah exactly um and so i think i think it's conversing on both sides we start justifying but there's a spiritual power behind this that is justifying it as well yeah you have to stop talking to it that is fantastic yeah that reminds me of augustine in the confessions where he he feels this desire to convert and it was like all of these sweet loves came up and said really now will we be gone forever yeah and he was conversing with it until he had to make that final decision yeah yeah well i i want to go through um aquinas's four remedies for lust yes i don't think he calls them remedies per se but he does call them you know ways to overcome and maybe what we can do is each is quite short like a short paragraph for each of these four points or ways and then i'd love you just to kind of speak to it and maybe especially as it pertains to to women oh sure yeah this could be fun i mean this is pines with aquinas after all so we have to mention him we got it we gotta i mean he's awesome and he has some good things to say here's the first thing he says about lust and this is just awesome he says we must realize that the avoidance of concupiscence demands much labor yeah and of course concubines are talking about our disordered passions our desire for those lower things in particular in this conversation like sexual things right for it is based on something within us it is as hard as trying to capture an enemy in one's own household so maybe speak to that first of all like it i love that it demands much labor so if you're thinking that you just had to pray a rosary and decide to stop and that would be it it that may not be the case it demands much labor yeah something we do in our small groups is we did this in person at college but then we're starting to implement it with magdala is making a freedom plan where you have to talk about each location or device that you fall on or emotions behind it you lay out like okay what is basically the the blueprint of my fall where where does satan get at me and then you have to find you have to list basically two to three solutions of when i feel this thing or when i experience this thing or when i'm laying in my bed or when i'm on my computer and i start to feel this temptation i have three things laid out that i can choose you do have to choose but i think that that first that interior admitting of this is what gets me but then that interior creation of a new solution i think is i would say that's um a labor laborious thing now let me say this too i think when you've struggled against something and you keep failing first of all that's just an exhausting way to live yeah and i think we get tired of hearing the same answers it's sort of like someone who's tried to lose weight again and again and again and again and again and you say to them okay here's how you do it they want to hear something new because they hope that that new thing will help them in a way that diet and exercise didn't yeah like maybe there's like pills i could take or it's like no like it's here's you need to die like i've heard that before okay i'm sure you have but it's still true yeah so i say that because here's the first thing that aquinas is going to say and we've all heard it but still i think it's important to address aquinas says the first way we can overcome lust is by fleeing the external occasions such as for instance bad company and in fact whatever may be an occasion for this sin um so that's yeah speak to that yeah i mean i think that yeah that's probably more what i said with the freedom plan i think a big one that women experience um is rom-coms that is something like i would say i almost asked what that was and then i knew what it was romantic comedy movies yeah um because bad company you know isn't always i would say the trigger necessarily because they don't talk about it um but the media that we take in the movies the music all of it i mean that is a massive trigger for women um and books that you read is another one so i i would say like i mean placing blocks on those external resources that you take in even if that means like okay it's a rom-com but it's got one sex scene it's fine it's fine it's not fine when you're trying to recover from porn it's not fine so just stop watching them and that may take time it may take time to weed those things out you may not you know need to have a netflix account for a little while but weed those things out the bad company we keep is often on our devices and in our hands it's not necessarily the people surrounding us you know i was thinking about this the other day because i think we christians are very good at rationalizing the sorts of entertainment we wish to engage yeah and you you i almost want to ask us as christians okay is there anything that would be inappropriate for a christian to watch i'm not talking porn that's obvious but anything else and it feels like we're just so good at being like well i can i can watch this and i can watch that because you know i can discern between what's good and what's bad and i'm a grown up and i can eat the chicken and spit out the bones like this idea that everything has to be like poo that brownie with a bit of poop you've heard that analogy would you eat a brownie with a poop in it no you wouldn't therefore don't watch the office and people find that simplistic and puritanical yeah and yet uh it might be good to just stop making excuses for a moment and to say yeah don't watch the office don't watch netflix maybe don't watch television because i think and i see this in my own life not with sexual sins but other sins like cursing and sarcasm like i'm so good at coming up with defenses and arguments and like you said the lord said to you just well just don't dialogue with it in a sense like just accept me stop talking and um i think that's that's really important what you just said there so all this like you said earlier like are you ready to change or not like what are you willing to do yeah says just quit making excuses quit watching that stuff quit exposing yourself to entertainment that's leading you down this dead-end path yeah social media would be another one i suppose oh yeah oh yeah and i think i need to be careful about the soapbox i get on with social media but it is a major gateway i think get on the soapboard oh gosh no it's a long soapbox um no i i i don't see benefits to it especially when you're trying to recover like magdala does not have social media accounts for this reason fabulous yeah because i don't want women going on social media to find us and find our resources i'm so impressed with you finding it on their own yeah and it means we have less numbers it means we're less popular it means people don't necessarily know who the team is but that is wonderful i mean for those watching right now the first link in the description below is to magdaler ministries which is rachel's apostolate um and i do want to get to that of course but that is wonderful like what a humble thing to do to be like we could be much bigger we're going to choose not to use social media because well it was actually it was actually my husband who told me yeah i know go tommy who actually um kind of called me out on that because i was saying like oh i could put this person in charge of social media you know do this and this and that he was like but you don't believe in social media like you don't think it's good and he was like are you are you willing to compromise that and i was like okay yes you idiot she would never even did it but no it was it was very good for me to be reminded of my own convictions and you know be called to to place that on the screen that's wonderful yeah that reminds me of dave ramsey i don't know if he still does this or not or what he's doing these days but whenever you would buy merchandise from him you couldn't use a credit card because he was against credit cards wow that's that's wow talk about integrity yeah damn um so that's something similar it makes it tougher for people to choose to like to take that step i think you know having not having social media it's like all right if you want magdala if you want our resources you gotta come find us and you gotta make that choice we're not gonna be at your fingertip necessarily we're there you can find us but we're not gonna be you know in your scrolling feed talk to women about why they should if they are struggling we say struggle and by the way struggle means to violently resist it doesn't mean to give into without a fight yeah people say i struck with pornography and i want to say is there any struggle or are you just choosing to do it are you just giving in so we hope that women are struggling with pornography if they're tempted as opposed to just giving in yeah and anyway but for women who are struggling and they're watching this right now tell them to get off social media feel free to be as bold as you like i mean i think i think it's just too easy um i think it's been proven that it's a gateway to pornography and it is one of those things of what are you willing to do um our attachments to social media especially as women are just colossal colossal we love to identify with those pictures with those feeds with who we follow with who follows us we love to identify with it um and so i think when you say no to social media um i mean it's a much bigger issue than just being like i'm done with porn it's like i'm done with identifying with this i'm done with this comparison um but it i think it's very superficial i'm thinking of certain platforms that tend to yeah tend to cultivate superficiality um and this is pretty much every one of them degrees there's probably some that are worse yeah that's a good point like it's kind of all of them yeah um but just yeah it makes it far too easy and that's one thing that a lot of women will rationalize is like well you know but i still want my tick tock i still want my instagram you know or like i have a business this and this and that i'm like okay um then yeah don't expect to get fully free without a freak ton of effort because this is you know probably public enemy number one at this point when it comes to porn um but it also just cultivates like other issues in women that complement struggles with lust too like comparison or insecurity um so it's not just feeding you content it's feeding those fires within you that reach out for that content yeah this is really good i mean aquinas here is of course talking about near occasion of sin and things that we engage in that when we do we go down the slippery slope towards pornography yeah and i find that like a lot of the time people say we've got to fast we're going to fast from you know just on bread and water and this is a beautiful thing and i encourage it in the appropriate circumstance you know but if you're struggling with pornography you could just ask yourself when's the last time like i had cheesecake and then looked at porn and then maybe not often maybe never maybe sometimes and you should quit dessert or when's the last time i've been cruising social media and just watching shows and then looked at porn so it's like find those things that when you engage in you end up looking at porn maybe it's drinking alcohol or something those are the things to maybe begin fasting from yeah exactly it doesn't sound as heroic right like i fast from instagram i fast from social media yeah it doesn't sound as heroic as i'm fasting from all food right um but it might be the thing you're being called to yeah and i think the i i don't know what am i trying to say oh yeah when i started the group originally at ave it was um my mindset was that of like okay let's do all these extreme things let's work out let's fast let's do all these things and it was actually the quiet correction of somebody who was helping me out with this ministry they were like are you sure are you sure that's the best path because that may send people away or it may starve them to the point where they reach for the one food they know you know um constantly is there um and so i think it's correct to make your fasts the right thing but also um i think i think i probably listened to a podcast with you that talked about this where you if you swing them this way you know it'll go this way instead we want them in the middle you know you don't want to be agitated yeah necessarily yeah you want people to find balance to find you know that that mean of virtue you know yeah well the second thing aquinas says is this the second way is by not giving an opening to thoughts which of themselves are the occasion of lustful desires and this must be done by mortification of the flesh i chastise my body and bring it into subjection yeah so talk about that the you know not giving an opening to thoughts which of themselves and we've we've talked about this a bit so aquinas's first way has to do with external things right yeah and that's the internal um i think fantasizing like sexual fantasies is a huge problem amongst women especially that's when i justified for a very long time and i would say that was the tail end of my struggle i fought that for um a few years following and if i'm tempted towards anything it's probably that now um because i think it's the hardest one to get rid of it's a screen in your mind basically um but i was given beautiful advice by this one woman that i met at seek a couple years ago and she said when the thoughts come you have to have an image to replace it with and she's like so picture like the most beautiful church you can in your mind or picture the monstrance you know like make your own detailed monstrance and send your mind to adoration like literally like if you need to snap your your fingers and do it and sometimes i'll still do that like if i start to sense something coming on every once in a while i'll just be like and then you know i have a particular image in my brain um so i think you know telling yourself not to think about it is like the worst when you're like don't think about it don't you know because it's like the don't think about pink elephants and now you're thinking about pink elephants you know instead have that image to replace it with and make it something beautiful you know um for some women that could be images of their children we've got lots of married women with children in within our you know ministries um but it could be an image of somebody you love but most of all i think making it an image of our lord um in some way shape or form it could be your favorite painting but the monstrance has been super helpful for me it's like okay all right i'm there you know and these these thoughts are not welcome in this space like we're in this space now that's been probably the most helpful thing for me so mortification of the flesh when it comes to thoughts you know i don't know if that's the approach that i've necessarily seen be most helpful but there was a time where um if i started being tempted i would get down on the floor and do push-ups or sit-ups that can help too like i'm going to go for a run now and i'm going to clear my mind and maybe you're right like in the moment it's not like how do i modify the flesh i'm tempted but but i guess like if i'm living a life in which i'm eating too much and sleeping in two ways and just kind of being lazy then that might lend itself towards more and more but i love what you did there that that it like my thing if i feel tempted to fantasize or something comes to my mind i'll actually say the word trigger out loud wow yeah i like that it's something similar to what you're doing because the clicking it's like it externalizes it and that action wakes up that sleeping part of your brain that is gradually drifting into fantasy land you you need something to interrupt it yeah and something physical is the way to do that so whether it be saying trigger and acknowledging what's happening yeah well i like that the physical thing there i like saying it out loud too because it calls it what it is and it doesn't like it doesn't beat you up in the moment for having kind of that little slip i like that uh here's the third way aquinas says perseverance in prayer unless the lord build the house they labor in vain who build it and also i knew that i could not otherwise be continent except god gave it again i love aquinas he's three scriptures this kind is not cast out saved by prayer and fasting and then aquinas says and this is such a lovely analogy all this is not unlike to a fight between two persons one of whom you desire to win the other to lose you must sustain the one and withdraw all support from the other so also between the spirit and the flesh there is a continual combat now if you wish the spirit to win you must assist it with prayer and likewise you must resist the flesh by such means as fasting for by fasting the flesh is weakened i love that it's and you've probably heard the analogy too between two wolves you know you've heard that that want to fight when you want to win yeah one you don't well how do you make that one win well you feed that one you don't feed the other one oh i like that a lot i always love his analogies too they're always very straightforward after not so straightforward the entire time um wow i'm just thinking about that for a second yeah i think for i think for women just that line one more time yeah please read it yeah not unlike this is not this this battle that you're in this is not unlike a fight between two persons one of whom you desire to win the other to lose you must sustain the one and withdraw all support from the other yeah i think the biggest thing for women though is that it's very hard to approach jesus with this issue that's something that i think i probably hear that most commonly um is that in prayer it's very hard to talk about it like it's hard to bring it up in confession because jesus is a man um and so approaching a man as a woman and especially like the man as a woman is very difficult to do in prayer um but there's a line from c.s lewis until we have faces it's towards the conclusion of the book where it says like how can we meet god face to face till we have faces um and i use this all the time and i probably overuse that line but it really is everything when i and i tell the women um in our ministry is that until you wear your face before god and all its ugliness and all its glory like he cannot show his face to you you have to rip the veil off right um and so there is nothing more freeing i think for women than to finally have that moment of like this is me i am mary magdalene possessed by seven demons in front of you right now i'm the woman caught in adultery at your feet with people raising stones against me i am that woman and what do you say you know and scripture is full of it you know jesus like looks and says you know i don't condemn you i don't condemn you but you can't hear that you can't hear that from him until you wear your face you know you can't see that beauty from him until you wear your face until you rip the veil off and so i think a lot of women want to pray about this but you have to start with kind of sending that or them into that space of disdain that they have with themselves the space of shame and be like wear that and take it to them um and it's a very hard place to get but i think it's so freeing and once you get there then i think you can start beefing it up um just in prayer you know like your your fight against this i think turning to female saints who struggled with it you mentioned mary of egypt to me several times she's a good one um but our ministry is named magdala after mary magdalene because she was a mess she was a mess of a woman um and just kind of pointing out to women always that like god loves messes he loves it he loves to use people who are messy like mary magdalene was present at the resurrection for a reason because she took her mess to the right source um so i always tell women like in prayer converse with god about this issue tell him how hard it is tell him why you want it tell him how you feel after you know using these things or masturbating tell him how you feel he wants to know and he does know um but i found a lot of women find that freedom first in just owning the shame presenting it to god and then starting that conversation and then they feel like they can ask you know god please help me but it takes that first step of wearing it in front of him if that makes sense that makes a lot of sense yeah um something i think we got to get better at in regards to prayer and um father sean mentioned this on our interview is lord help me find in you what i'm looking for in this like it has to be real it has to be intimate it has to be from the heart um devotionals are beautiful but they are they they are meant to bring us into intimacy with jesus and sometimes we don't use the rosary as a means to be intimate with jesus we use the rosary as like the dollar i put into the vending machine to get a coke in other words i give you a rosary you give me a porn free day that's how this works and the whole prayer life becomes about not looking at porn whereas it's supposed to be about intimacy with jesus which of course a side effect of that will be to take our yearnings and our aches to him and not to this this idol yeah that's like a line from the great divorce after the whole red lizard victory is done um there's a line that says like master overcome us so that overcome we may become ourselves wow say that again master overcome us so that overcome we may become ourselves um it's like a prayer that you know the the ghost gives i think or maybe it's the entire like land is singing at that point um but it is that yeah like i i want to become who i am i want to become who you've made me to be and but you have to overcome me in order for me to become that um you have to enter into all of these spaces that i've been hiding from you all of these dusty corners that i have in order for me to become who i am and i have a longing to become who i am um that's another thing i talk about with them often is that the women in our ministry is just like god has designed such a complex and beautiful person for you to be um and this is getting in the way and so take that desire for who you want to be and and take it to him but just understand he's gotta go into a lot of spaces first yeah how important is therapy in your experience with with women who are struggling with pornography because we're talking about prayer prayer is essential um but maybe sometimes people say well i pray so i need to go to therapy like i've gone to confession or i go to confession so maybe i don't need therapy what would you say to that i think it's crucial um whether in the midst of your struggle or not at some point you have to confront it in a therapeutic setting for me it was after it was actually after therapy was help like helpful in addressing the shame um that this had placed on my identity and just kind of helped sweep that off and i experienced a lot of freedom a couple years later when i took it to therapy um some women um like cannot get free i think without help from a counselor from a trained sex addiction therapist sometimes or sometimes even like a program and not to be afraid of that i always commend women when they they say like kind of nervously like okay i think i might need like a rehab program or i might need a therapist i'm like yeah good on you yeah go find it that's great like you you are articulating that you need help and you're gonna go get it that's awesome um but i think every woman at some point or another needs to address it in a clinical setting whether that's even just like a meeting or two with a therapist and just kind of cleaning out okay i had this and this is you know these are the mental effects from it because yes it is a sin and we need to address it spiritually first i'd say but then addressing what it does to you mentally what it does to your relationships i think is is really crucial i'm a huge advocate for for therapy did that help you in your process yeah you said yes i went um i'd say i addressed it in therapy a year later a year and a half later and then mostly two years i went through a couple different rounds of therapy um and it was exceedingly like helpful and very pivotal for me to just kind of it felt like i had you know a carpet that was like halfway clean and then like therapy was just taking the vacuum over it and like fully cleaning out the carpet and it was all gone at that point um just like the shame and the buildup of what i was still believing about myself because i had struggled with it had had to be addressed from that therapeutic standpoint the fourth way and this is the final thing aquinas says uh he says the the fourth way is to keep oneself busy with wholesome occupations sirach says idleness hath taught much evil saint jerome says be always busy and doing something good so that the devil may find you ever occupied now study of the scriptures is best of all as saint jerome tells us love or to study the scriptures and you will not love the vice of the flesh but what about that general point there to keep oneself busy with wholesome occupations because i suppose to some that might sound like avoidance like don't think about it just do good things and you'll be okay that's clearly not what he was talking about but maybe interpret that in the best possible light and how that can be a blessing to keep oneself busy with wholesome occupations because idle idleness is so much evil yeah i mean i think avoidance can note certain behaviors that aren't necessarily helpful like i think i can avoid pornography by watching tv i can avoid it by reading a book you know um but pursuing acts of charity is never i don't think i don't think i would classify that as an avoidance um and there is there is kind of an accountability in itself that comes with that i got um really involved in ministry while i was trying to recover with high schoolers um and that was really really helpful for me is that i felt like i wasn't just recovering from myself i felt like i was recovering to lead these kids closer to christ um and so i think encountering people out of love and out of acts of charity i don't yeah that doesn't feel like avoidance to me um but it feels like filling that space because in seeking pornography we're longing for love but filling that space by loving others by being loved to others i think is very very powerful um and so that doesn't mean like you have to run to the soup kitchen and volunteer like any time you want to um like watch porn but it it just means having having those spaces where you know consistently like this is where i get the chance to be loved to people that teaches addicts that um there's a possibility for them to do more than just you know bad actions than just lustful actions it's like no i do feel some of my time with something loving and i want to do that more it gives something to focus on yeah there is a quote going around the internet tribute to thomas aquinas i'm pretty sure it's not from him but i think it would sum up his thought it says man cannot live without joy therefore when he is deprived of true spiritual joys it is necessary that he become addicted to carnal pleasures now maybe there's a quote like that i haven't been able to find it but i'm sure this is i mean it's true yeah um and and i i think that goes to what aquinas is saying here as well about um filling your day with wholesome activities if i'm not going to the lord in prayer receiving his blessing his words of affirmation yeah but then also if i'm not sort of engaged in beautiful activities at all like reading a nice book with my wife say or taking your day off which means leaving your phone in the draw perhaps or something like that if i'm not actually engaged in wholesome activities then i'm just sort of like running on fumes and that's not a good place to be in if you wish to continue to avoid these carnal pleasures yeah you have to have leisure essentially yeah speak about that what's the difference between leisure and dissociating much about rest time ends up being that yeah i am i'm not the best on leisure my husband's the best on on leisure i i um i think it's the dissociation is um not recreative like it's not recreate yeah recreation um leisure recreates you so leisure is time spent in something that recreates like what it means to be human so like reading a book with your wife or you know having a drink with friends those sorts of things recreate you um i'm gonna go out on a limb and say netflix does not recreate you you know and that's that's saying you know sorry that's not to say that you shouldn't watch netflix ever but it's just saying like are you spending a majority of your downtime recreating yourself and what you know what it means to be you um what it means to be a human overall are you connecting with other people are you spending time in community are you spending time with god um yeah searching for recreation i think is at the heart of pleasure i think too a distinction between say recreation or leisure and then on the other hand what would you say distracting yourself to death or or dissociating is one takes work so like leisure takes effort effort yeah like i i'm giving up the internet in august i'm terrified actually there's a lot that goes into that i gotta work my butt off in july in order to literally give my phone away for the month of august and that's amazing yeah it is i'm pumped and i'm blessed to have a sort of job in which i'm able to do that not everyone does but i think we can do something we can give up anytime the weekend but but the point is it's not like i'm great at leisure all that means you're lazy is that no it's actually the opposite because i have to put work in to sit still with a book like it's it takes nothing to distract yourself for three hours on netflix right it takes a great deal of effort to sit down in adoration for an hour yes yes absolutely and that i mean part of that work is what it means to be human as well you know we identify with the things that we place our action into and so what are what are you pouring action into yeah what i want to do is we're going to take a quick break come back i want to talk about magdalen ministries some of the experiences you've had there and then we'll take questions from those on patreon and youtube perfect all right all right i want to say thank you to two of our sponsors the first being homeschool connections if you are a parent who is homeschooling or who is considering homeschooling you need to check out homeschoolconnections.com matt there is a link in the description below this is an amazing program it is 100 catholics so all of the teachers are faithful to the magisterium of the church and the teachers are really sensational imagine your kid being taught apologetics by trent horn from catholic answers or tim staples from catholic answers or being taught literature by people like joseph pearce it's really great they have live and interactive courses that meet in real time they also have recorded independent learning courses that can be taken on your schedule also the prices are really good so you can continue to do homeschooling on a budget homeschoolconnections.com again link in the description below please check these guys out and make sure you go to homeschoolconnections.com so that they know that we sent you yeah they have a parent community uh for meaningful connections to other parents just like you so it's not just something you show to your children it's something that you as a parent are engaging in as well homeschool connections dot com slash matt i also want to say thank you to hello hello is a really amazing app that will help you to pray and to meditate i've been advertising these guys for a few years now and they just keep getting better and better and better i actually downloaded the app the other day because i got a new phone so it was off my phone and i bought the year subscription and i've been really loving it it leads you through rosary meditations or lectio divinas or night exams it even has sleep stories from people like jonathan rooney from the chosen or father mike schmitz or yes myself but whatever you don't listen to that one um it's really really excellent and i'd encourage you to go check it out hello.com mattfradd and when you sign up there at hello.comfred you'll get a month free to everything on the app now you can just download the app and you'll get free you know free certain certain things will be free but not all of it but if you want access to the entire app so you can just try it out and see if you want to you know use this to pray with hello dot com slash matt frat that's h a l l o w dot com slash matt fradd they are the number one app on itunes as far as catholic apps are concerned you know there's a lot of these apps that help you to meditate and things like this but they're new agey you know or they they just teach false things or they just lead you into that kind of way of thinking this isn't like that hundred percent catholic really well produced hello dot com slash matt fradd hallow.com mattfradd and then finally i would just like to ask you if you would consider supporting us at pints with aquinas.com give you can give directly or you can you know go to patreon and give there we're trying to raise money for a full-time video guy we're also trying to launch our pints with aquinas espanol channel which will be called tequila con aquino so if you're enjoying this work and you want to throw us a few bucks every month that really adds up and we really appreciate it all right back to the interview i'm gonna scoot you closer yes all right good to be back um so i've as i say i've linked magdala ministries to the top of the description i hope everybody goes and checks that out whether you're a man or a woman uh whether you struggle with pornography or not please go check it out tell us a bit about it how it started how it's doing yeah so the the funny quote that i ended up accidentally saying on jason edwards podcast was it's a fresh baby ministry and like everybody's been texting me about that they're like how's your fresh baby ministry yeah and i don't know why i said that but that is kind of what it is um it's very new um i believe i mean i spoke to you in february march and kicked it off right after that i think um so we're still learning the ropes but we do have small groups they're currently closed because we don't have enough moderators so if you are a woman and you have experienced this um this addiction and are in a state of recovery in which you can mentor other women please also go on to the site and you know fill out the form because you could be a small group moderator and we need you um but we have small groups you can join virtual small groups so we're about to start doing them over zoom but then we also do a lot of activities on patreon so i'm about to start a book study of the four loves for our patrons on patreon so if you want to support us and join in for stuff like book studies or exclusive podcast episodes join us on patreon um we also have the podcast the magdala podcast that just finished season one and we're gonna start season two yeah and then um our last thing is just blog posts so we have several writers who will write on different um different topics and within obviously this sphere of like sexuality and pornography and whatnot um and so we try to regularly post on the blog but again we're like really getting geared up so we need support we need excitement we need people to join us and again how many women are currently coming to you guys for advice and support i think we have 185 who have filled out the form of vienna we're so happy yeah that's incredible yeah and then we have um i think between we have i believe six moderators right now for small groups i think between all of us because some of those are still on the waiting list i think we're serving over a hundred in those small groups um so we try to keep them to you know a decent size like maybe six to eight tops but um for the most part yeah we're trying to chip away at those at that number but again we need more more manpower all right so what happens today there's a woman watching she wants to get connected she goes to magdala ministries how does she get connected what does that look like there's a little tab at the top that says um you know it's like the home about or whatever there's one that says join a group so she can go and she can fill out a form and it will be sent to me right now i'm the only person who has access to the form if that's comforting to anybody um but she can fill out her name and just contact information and then she can kind of tell us where she's at a little bit and that helps us kind of see maybe what kind of help we can recommend if maybe a small group isn't the best bet right now we've had a couple women who maybe need a little more time or maybe need some therapeutic help before a small group would be beneficial to them but that kind of gives us an idea of where to put people another big one is that if they're married we tend to try to put the married women together so they can have very open conversation with each other um so that's that's been kind of a qualifier i guess but then you can also say like i'm not ready to join a group and i would like to know more and then we reach out to you via email just with more information on you know what magdala does encouraging them to listen to the podcast join us on patreon read the blog um and then just say reach out to us whenever you're ready we're here for you we're praying for you um or you can select you know i would like to join as a moderator so there's a few different options on that form yeah but it's very easy to find and then we have like little buttons all over the site being like join a group join a group join a group which again we are on a wait list i just want to warn everybody but um but yeah you will get back to them even if there's a wait yes yes before the wait's over yes and we don't have like a i would love to say i get back to you the day of right now it's yeah it takes you have a life you have a husband be good to him first yeah it takes a while yeah yeah yeah okay that's that's really cool um i mean that's i remember you reaching out and us chatting in february i can't believe you have that many women that's that's so beautiful because yeah i mean it's so easy like send out a post and get like a thousand likes or something but you're dealing with like 100 plus human beings who are admitting their desire to change and something they find probably embarrassing yeah that's beautiful oh did you ever think it would get this big so quickly and um i couldn't tell i kind of dove in i mean i spoke to you and then i think you told me like think about it for a week or something and so um my husband and i did a novena and we were just like all right let's let's see you know how i feel and then by the end i already had he was like slow down because i already had the website created i was like on squarespace like you know i'm just like going crazy yeah good for you but i think like yeah i i didn't know what it would be it was definitely like a stab in the dark and i was like you know yeah god bless it or block it like if women need this if this is what women need right now then send them you know so he's sent them so far yeah i'm thinking of that scripture you know he who is faithful in small things will be put in charge of more things and i think the fact that you've prayed about this you know that that's beautiful the fact that you are choosing not to be on social media though you could reach 10 times the amount of people because you think that's one of the ways in which women get hooked on porn just how yeah that's beautiful that's that's glorious and i think our lord will not only continue to bless you because in a way who cares about you who what we care about is these women coming to you who are looking for life yes and that's who you're serving and yes you're beautiful for doing it thank you so much well let's take some questions if that's okay with you we haven't seen these questions ahead of time um so if you're in uh if you're in the live chat feel free to at points with aquinas and send us send us a question here uh jessica foster i just want to be careful of reading people's names i told people say you want to be anonymous if you do but this person didn't so how can i charitably correct other catholic women regarding matters of purity i have several practicing catholic friends who see no problem sharing a bed with their boyfriends having long make out sessions but i have no idea how to address it or whether i should especially since i don't exactly have a saintly past ah bless you hmm i think it's a great question um i think this is hard for women and i'm very opinionated so this is a hard one for me that i'm trying to put into practice um don't like try not to have an opinion about something unless somebody has entrusted you with that information right um so like if a friend is saying something in passing you know um the level of correction you give them needs to be very small right but if you have a friend coming to you saying i think this is okay this is what we're doing or this is what we did last night then you get to have more of a response right so like the response has to fit the level of trust given to you um i think when we give our opinions in spaces where we're not super trusted it just comes across as judgment um so if there's only been comments in passing i would say like facilitate a deeper conversation with these friends you know um just talk to them about their relationships talk to them about like you know how they're living out virtue in general you know how they see the relationship going and then these things will kind of naturally come up i found and then address it from there um but i think and charitably speaking to it is just kind of i think kind of asking that question of like you know what are you looking for when you do that or like do you find that makes it harder for you to not do other things are you just asking those um those questions instead of just being like well you know like the church says x y and z don't hit them with that immediately ask the probing questions i like that yeah and what would you say to the last thing she said there about um especially since i don't exactly have a saintly past she wonders whether she even addressed it at all what do you say to people like that who like i'm no one to speak none of us have a saintly past yeah none of us have a saintly past nobody and i think nobody has perfect chastity especially we are very marred by the world we live in so i think yeah if we believe that about ourselves like you know i can't speak on these truths because i don't have a saintly past and none of us would ever speak at all you know or none of us should ever speak at all basically that's right i think it's important to remember that hypocrisy doesn't mean failing to live up to your own standards yeah in that sense if that were true we're all hypocrites now a hypocrite is somebody who demands something of everybody else that he doesn't demand of himself yes so if you're saying to your friend stop having long makeout sessions with your boyfriend while you're choosing to continue to do that yes you are absolutely a hypocrite but you're not a hypocrite you're not on behalf of the truth yeah exactly okay uh joseph uh let's see i can't dis des chennai zes i'm sorry joseph he says he's a new patron he's going to quit being a patron after i just mocked his last name or messed it up sorry not sure how let's see here uh i'd be curious to hear you address couples who make the argument that pornography helps them with their love lives would they take a different approach towards a couple versus a single man or a woman on pornography use thank you that's a really good question and this is actually something i think about often is that particular line the you know this helps us um but i think that kind of goes at the what you think the definition of pornography is it's like you're you're welcoming somebody else into your bedroom that's very private would you want you know to live people in front of you like demonstrating what you should be doing you know no not necessarily so why bring a screen like featuring something in yeah like you wouldn't go to like a whorehouse and sit for a prostitute and a john right exactly um but i think that kind of gets at what couples actually think pornography is if they don't think it's that if they don't think it's that equivalent um you can't necessarily answer that question very clearly for them you have to like make sure you're acting on the same first principle here and talking about the same thing um but i'm not i'm not sure do you have a designated response to couples who think that well i would say like i said earlier pornography offers us something and sometimes it's helpful to acknowledge what that something is yeah and so it may be the case that a couple says well when we watch pornography and engage in sexual intercourse it's far more pleasurable um and you could you could say okay but it's gonna destroy your marriage so it's not that it's not giving you something yeah it's that it's perverting what you ought to be engaged in yeah as jason everett has said uh pornography is not the fulfillment of marriage you know it's it's it's the distortion of love yeah um i've heard intimacy described as into me see but if i'm in that most intimate of acts while turning my gaze from my beloved to this thing yeah this this is clearly a severe violation so i would say if a couple is watching pornography and they're watching this right now i would say um yeah it's a grave sin which will not only harm your soul but it will destroy your marriage um if you're interested in seeing the stats on that go check out my friend gary wilson's website your brain on porn.com you ever check that out oh yeah gary was a good friend do you know he he passed away about a month ago and he's done such great work um and he was an atheist you know or at least agnostic you know he is this man who's like leading the charge in many respects but you know he documents that like if you would like to be sexually dissatisfied and frustrated porn is the ticket yeah according to these 70 plus studies etc so yeah people might want to check that out just because something gives you something initially it doesn't mean it won't [ __ ] you in the long run that's a good answer um let's see here uh emma k says do you have advice for a husband or boyfriend of a woman who once struggled or does continue to struggle with sexual sin so what's your advice to a man here i think he's saying is he yeah yeah yeah yeah thank you for that question yeah i'm glad i get to talk about this um i think men you know because women hear it from men right but i think men in that situation have even more of a chance to be the face of christ to the woman who is talking to them so i would entreat any man who's in that situation to really really think about that in the moment and ask for the grace to be the face of christ because your reaction could make or break this person's journey um another thing i would say though is that you are allowed to be hurt you are very very allowed to be hurt by this um if this comes up in your relationship you have a right to that pain even that shock but that doesn't mean you have to necessarily portray that in the moment you know or throughout um luckily enough like all of the men that i have had relationships with or including my husband but um even guys that i you know pseudo dated or something like that their reaction has always been extremely gracious i have never received um i've never received a reaction from a man that i was in somewhat of a relationship with uh that that hurt me um they all lifted me up and i think that was extremely powerful and helpful um as i journeyed through this is that like there most of them um struggled with it as well but a couple of them didn't and then um yeah and they would just kind of look at me and just say like wow like thank you and most of them would tell me i was brave and that was really helpful too um so tell them they're brave you know tell them they're strong and um yeah but just look them in the eye don't look away i think that's a big one look them in the eye hold that gaze and just tell them what you like what you think they are that they're beautiful that they're brave start affirming them and thank them for telling you that's a huge one too um is when people express gratitude like thank you for sharing that with me or thank you you know it feels like you gave them a gift and not just like crap on their day you know like telling them that you had this addiction um thank them i would also point out that you as the partner have a self-interested reason to thank them namely yeah if you would like your partner boyfriend spouse to continue being honest with you yeah if that's something you would like yeah then it it will help you if you thank them again it doesn't mean you can't be hurt angry shocked but to say i am so grateful that you told me this yeah thank you i don't ever want you to hide things from me even if you think i'd be upset this means the world to me that you'd be dishonest like if you want your spouse to be honest with you say those things because if if i say to my spouse or somebody says to their spouse i look to pornography and they freak out um again i'm not diminishing that because i understand it's it's an emotional thing and people have a right to be angry as you say but i'm i'm gonna be less likely because like i don't want to like upset you and i don't like having conflict and i don't like feeling but i don't like feeling like crap so i won't tell you if i you know yeah and i would say too if you've had that reaction like say your girlfriend or spouse has told you this and then um you did react that way just apologize you know try your best to rectify that situation um a heartfelt apology goes a long way but just saying like i'm so sorry i reacted that way i was hurt and i was confused about how to react let's talk about this again let's revisit just know that if you did react out of shock it's not over basically that's good it's a good answer now this question is very similar let's see here um i just just had it here had to do with how we bring this up in a dating relationship there you go so how like let's say there's a lady um and she's like yeah i just started dating this guy like how do i bring this up hmm i think there's a couple similarities to what i said about telling your friends um you know just like show your own ownership of this problem um but i think it is a little more dramatic when you're bringing it up in a relationship my policy because i also along with this question i get the when you know when should i tell my significant other um my policy was always like honesty is best about this and i i kind of would put it out on the table like on like a second date i think my husband knew i think you knew before we even started dating it was like our second conversation you knew because i was running a ministry and so i was like yeah by the way you know but um and then i shared my full story later but i think honesty is the best policy um and it's going to be difficult i i don't think i should lie to anybody and say that that's like not a difficult conversation i think it is easier to tell other women um but start with yeah with the i would like to be honest with you um about how this is going to affect our relationship i have this piece of my history or i'm struggling with this presently and i want to be honest because i want your help um i want you know you to know me and i want you know i want this to be a good relationship um so i i would always take the angle of like i yeah i want you to know this about me like for our sake you know um taking that angle instead of being like here's just like this emotional dump instead saying i think you need to notice so we can be as virtuous as possible um and placing the focus beyond your addiction and just placing it on the relationship itself if that makes sense um but the when i think is individual again i brought it up quickly because i was running a ministry and um just wanted to be honest but i think you know some people it takes time and give yourself that time you know like i think don't take too long obviously but um one thing i've found helpful in speaking to men and i wonder what you think about this is maybe saying to your significant other you've started dating them because i think the fear is you don't want to like bring this up casually no you want them to know that this is a conversation that's going to require your attention and there's a there's a weight to it uh so i've suggested saying something like hey would it be okay if we met tomorrow and i just have some stuff i'd love to share with you oh yeah because you're kind of preparing them yeah yeah they go home they go to bed they know that there's some kind of conversation coming yeah yeah it's not just like hey wanna get a coffee and oh by the way and that can take somebody off guard yeah we're not always the best when we're taken off guard but be intentional about just kind of helping them yeah it gives it help that plays them but yeah i like that a lot uh emily anne lucy g says how would you deal with triggers that come up while ministering to others also does mag magdala help those with issues around emotional chastity um we don't i don't think we address emotions people keep explaining it to me and i keep not understanding what they mean um i'm not sure i'm the best to ask about that definition either i think my assumption is it has to do with maybe engaging in relationships that might be emotionally uh inappropriate given your relationship i think it's that and the emotional progression of intimacy i think this is a woman problem largely you know i think the emotional progression is huge but that was an excellent question about like look you're you're somebody who's struggled with in the past as i am how is it we deal with people's stories without being triggered ourselves um it's so interesting yeah i've had a lot of people ask me this and i would say this is kind of part of that grace too um is there's only a few times i can think of where i was like all right i might need to exit this conversation you know or i'd and i've had to tell a couple people like hey like i love you i love that you're sharing this with me but i maybe need to i don't need to hear so many details you know um and then if it gets to a certain point i think saying you know this is this is a little bit triggering um but i've had i i mean i can only think of like a couple times that that has happened i think that's part of the grace of that calling where if this ever got to the point where it was super triggering for me i would know i need to step down um but i think any moment that i have had it's just being honest and asking for what i need um i have other leaders who do that as well very very well just set those boundaries um but i tell women in the groups like i want you to be honest i want you to be forthright i want you you know to say what you need to say and get it out um but please don't share explicit details of maybe where you found content what was going on in the content um feelings that you got from it like you know be careful with those details um and a lot of the women in the groups are so respectful of other people's triggers it's really awesome um and so they'll say like hey i'm about to share something a little more detailed or like you know share something a little more vulnerable you know if it's triggering for you let me know um so i would say yeah i haven't encountered that too much um i think it's part of the grace of doing it but when i do it's just set the boundaries be clear yeah be honest i don't know about you but uh yeah i mean it's probably like you i mean when i'm working with people who porn has devastated yeah i don't find that terribly appealing or triggering it's almost for me it's like a reminder but why don't we go down this road again yeah same is true when i get up and speak about it yeah it's like oh yeah i'm right good job man that's that's a great question anymore yeah yeah morgan sims thanks being a patron morgan says what advice or at least words of kindness would you give to girls and women who are haunted by what they have seen and or experienced even if they have been freed from the daily habit hmm wow this kind of makes me want to cry um i would say first that i know you i know you really well um yeah i think one thing you've said i love this word but you've said this before is god is not scandalized by you um there's a line in a worship song that says like your love is proud to be seen with me um i would say that like the lord is proud to be seen with you the lord is proud of you um he's proud of how far you've come um but i know that haunting so well um i know how it like can talk to you and bog you down over and over and i wouldn't i'm i'm lying if i say that doesn't come up on occasion still you know where it will still whisper like oh but you you know remember this um and so i just i would say like you're known um you're not alone i think that's a huge one for women to hear too you're not alone in this but just that like think of how far you've come like this is haunting you because you're not looking at it all the time anymore you know it has it has to keep trying and this is how it's trying now but um it's kind of like the israelites when they went out into the desert it's like why are we starving it's like because you're not a slave anymore you're not a slave anymore you are you know you're out in the desert maybe and you're still really struggling but you're not a slave anymore and focus on that praise god for your freedom um that's what gets the haunted or the haunting voices to go away is praising god for the freedom and the healing that he has brought so i would encourage them to do that but first just know that they're they're known beautiful let's see here um man there's so many wonderful people asking questions in the chat they're all coming very quickly this person says i quit porn 12 years ago as a single woman and now married i struggle with disordered fantasies while having sex with my husband sex feels dirty how do you go about healing from this huh yeah as a as a newlywed i don't have much experience in this um i i would encourage you first to have honesty with your husband um i think there's a couple moments where i've struggled with something like that and telling my husband has been what kind of stops that um but also not being afraid to pray i'd say during you know sex i would say like not being afraid to yeah to pray to say the name of jesus to ask for help you know you don't have to stay silent on this um but ask your husband um for his help too and like receive his response to you i would say is what helps send those things away um because yeah sex is a trigger for people when they've struggled as single people you know and like they can have this part of a relationship now it definitely can bring up those images and those like words and stuff um but i say like make it you know what what how am i trying to put this basically what that's trying to attack in the moment is your unity right it's trying to attack your sacrament so how do you respond you respond by uniting you know you respond by saying like no you know you don't get to come between this you don't get to come into this marriage you have no place here uniting together as husband and wife praying against this talking about it being aware of it together um that sends the devil packing because that's what he's trying to get at um that's great yeah that's really good advice i'd encourage people to check out christopher west's youtube channel because he's putting out a lot of fantastic content recently well a lot of last year or so but um yeah as christopher has said you know the devil doesn't have his own clay he can't create he can only distort yeah um and so one of the things he says like if you find yourself reflecting on some sexual image or person that you have seen in pornography as opposed to don't think about it he says say something like lord i thank you for the beauty of this person you know like oh wow it's almost like in your prayer you're untwisting what sin has twisted and so i think for that reason it is important to sort of say thank you for the beauty of sexual desire and delight this was your idea i thank you for it i thank you for orgasms and i thank you for sex and you know praising god for that yeah so as not to throw the baby out with the bath water yeah but of course that only takes you so far and i would highly recommend people check out christopher west and the work he's doing at theology of the body yeah because they're putting on excellent conferences for people um in pennsylvania that you can go to i think they're also online yeah so that's amazing out i like that a lot yeah yeah yeah awesome anything else you want to address before we begin to wrap up i think i'm good thank you for the work you're doing um i would ask everybody to please pray for rachel and magdaler ministries and to go check them out link is in the description below top top there so as you say if there's a woman out there right now who you're watching this you've found a good degree of freedom from this yourself and you might want to be a moderator for magdalen ministries go to that link and and and suggest that you become a moderator because yeah this is good work you're doing thank you appreciate it thanks for having me yeah yeah joy cool all right thank you that's it how was that for a crash landing yes thank you [Music] so [Music] [Applause] [Music] so [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] do [Music] you

Channel: Pints With Aquinas

Views: 60,515

Rating: 4.9513335 out of 5

Keywords: aquinas, catholicism, catholic, pints with aquinas, matt fradd, theology, debate, religion, st. thomas aquinas, thomas aquinas, philosophy

Id: LFtn6oaY7iQ

Length: 105min 51sec (6351 seconds)

Published: Sat Jul 10 2021