WHY PLOT HOLES MATTER - A Response To Patrick Willems "Shut Up About Plot Holes" | Cynical Reviews

now I know it seems impossible to watch movies wrong but you're watching movies wrong you're watching movies wrong you're watching movies wrong I'm not overly fond of plot holes contradictions or poor story writing in general you know what I'm less fond of being told that those things don't matter but you know what I'm really really not fond of what really rustles my jimmies being told that I'm wrong for caring about them there's a video which has made it to the trending page on YouTube right onto the Logan Paul Kerr site fight it's inescapable isn't it sake it's by Patrick Williams and it's called shut up about plot holes basically he argues that plot holes in films don't matter and that we should stop talking about them and the titles in all caps so you know he's serious wait why is it only in 720p it's 2018 get with the times man even when I filmed something on a potato I still upload it in glorious 1080p so you can marvel at how awful my camera is jokes aside this video annoyed me not because I disagree with his points I'm perfectly capable of disagreeing with someone without being a cop about it but apparently he isn't not only does his video have this snide condescending an arrogant tone that I quickly found insufferable but he crosses the line between offering his own opinion and being a gatekeeping douche and so I have no desire to be respectful there's a lot wrong with his video a lot of bad arguments about examples and ironically enough some plot holes and I can't cover them all because otherwise my video will be really but I will be fair because even though I disagree with many of his arguments and with the message of the video I do agree with some of the points he makes so we'll start there and apologies if I repeat myself I've tried not to but some of my counter arguments are applicable to more than one part of his video one of the main points he's trying to get across is that too many people have become too nit picky about films and other media to the point where they pick up on very surface level flaws exaggerate every little imperfection and even create ones where they don't exist they focus on things that don't matter instead of trying to enjoy the story I think this is true to a certain extent there is a significant community of moviegoers who in my opinion care way too much about tiny details and Patrick points to cinemasins as one of the main parties responsible for this and claims that they have had a negative influence on the way a lot of people now watch films I'm an agreement that cinema sends his total trash that picks up on or makes up incredibly minor issues for the sake of adding to an arbitrary sin counter I think it's completely unfunny ridiculous and not a valid source of serious criticism I mean the films called cowboys and Aliens for [ __ ] sake what did you expect but that's kind of the point they're not being serious they themselves admit that the ridiculously over-the-top deconstruction of films is done purely for entertainment reasons we're not reviewers or [ __ ] and while there are definitely some people who do this purely to prove how clever they are at the expense of others I think most people who nitpick or take issue with plot holes do it either because they find that way of looking at films entertaining or because they appreciate how satisfying a well-constructed narrative can be and therefore believe it's perfectly legitimate to point out flaws that affect storytelling or characterization and while I personally would never insult people who nitpick all those who don't Patrick is not so noble now I know it seems impossible to watch movies wrong but you're watching movies wrong you're kind of watching movies wrong from the level of contempt this guy expresses for people who care about plot holes you'd think one of them had forced him to watch the entire cinema since back catalogue while they shocked his mum I'll address that later but for now I want to talk about his next message no one seems to actually know what a plot hole is and all those plot holes people complain about they don't actually matter and to do that we need to talk about what a plot hole actually is Patrick offers his definition a plot hole is a point in which a story breaks a previously established rule about its own universe basically it's when a story contradicts itself by itself this definition is too narrow more generally a plot hole is a literal hole in the plot a gap in the story normally a narrative progresses through a series of steps where it is possible to see how each one followed from the previous one if on the other hand something happens the story beat moves along or events jump from A to B but the gap in the middle is not filled with a plausible explanation which makes sense according to the universe's established rules or which completely defies the audience's expectations for how things work then we have a plot hole you may think I'm being too broad but I think this definition more accurately encapsulates what most people mean when they talk about flat holes in this sense the holes in the plot can be caused by events which either directly contradict previously established facts about the story or setting all which are very unreasonable or impossible in the context of the film's internal logic an example of the former is the Karate Kid in which the hero wins the tournament by kicking his opponent in the face a move that was explicitly banned by a referee beforehand and should have led to his disqualification it's a perfect example of a plot hole because it contradicts the film's own writing and breaks the plot an example of the latter which Patrick himself mentions is how Indiana Jones was able to survive on the outside of the submarine in Raiders of the Lost Ark it's not explained how he does this and there's no explanation according to our understanding of the way the world works so we're left going here the plot hole comes from the lack of sufficient justification for the progression of the plots from one point to the next let's not even talk about the [ __ ] fridge scene these plot holes matter because films are not accurate portrayals of real life in all its randomness they're artificial constructs with each of their pieces put together for the purpose of conveying a narrative and when these pieces don't fit together properly a film can fail but Patrick seems to disagree and all those plot holes people complain about they don't actually matter in order to see why let's take a look at what Patrick thinks are not plot holes [Music] in the Dark Knight Rises we never see how Batman gets back to Gotham City that's a plot hole we'll be tend to assume that the audience is reasonably intelligent but I guess they're wrong one of the earliest cinematic developments was the concept of montage the idea is that when two images are presented in sequence the audience understands that they occur chronologically and will mentally fill in the time between scenes so for instance if a person is in one location and the next scene they're in another location we understand that in between scenes they traveled between the locations we are aware of the concept of a montage you don't have to talk down to us we're not in five no one's complaining about gaps between sequences or events taking place off screen in and of itself they're complaining about the transition between events making no goddamn sense if we're watching a normal person going to work and coming home under completely normal circumstances because we're reasonably intelligent we'll safely assume that they made the journey in a car or something the point about the Dark Knight Rises which you've completely missed is that the circumstances are not normal Bruce Wayne has barely recovered from having his body completely broken has been stripped of his wealth and assets and means of communication and is stranded in some unspecified distant country and then he somehow shows up in Gotham just in time to save the day although it's not absolutely impossible the extraordinary circumstances mean that it warrants at least some explanation I mean that film was a clusterf anyway but its internal logic and narrative structure raises that obvious question but then just goes may deal with it movies do not have to show everything but they do have to show everything relevant oh but I guess we're not reasonably intelligent enough to figure out an explanation for ourselves movies are for the most part about human beings are at least characters who think and act play human beings and you know what human beings are not logical people are impulsive they make choices based on emotion not everyone thinks exactly the same and also people make mistakes so if everyone acted totally logically all the time only making the most logical decision in any situation no one would be acting human thus there would be no conflict which would lead to no drama which would lead to no stories and movies would be really for sure we can nitpick about characters not doing the completely rational thing it's easy to judge a situation from the outside looking in and the vast majority of plot holes that I've seen which are just characters acting impulsively or like idiots aren't really plot holes so that's a fair point but although human beings are illogical and impulsive and real life is not driven by pure rationality films are not an accurate reflection of real life and characters are not an accurate reflection of human beings in a sense they're constructs they act the way they do because of factors that have to be explained because they aren't just people they are characters in a story if a character walked into a shop and started shooting people and nothing had been shown about their character that provides a reason why and no reason is offered afterwards they are an incomplete character in an incomplete story that is lazy terrible writing and we have a right to be unsatisfied good writers create conflict and drama in their stories by having their characters act in ways that make sense one reason why Game of Thrones is so good excluding season soon of course is that its characters don't always act rationally but their actions can always be explained by reference to their personality so characters can be impulsive but they should not be random because as soon as they start acting out of character in a way that only serves as a plot device they stop being believable characters and if they act in a way that contradicts their previously established personality with no explanation then that is a valid plot hole why would the Death Star has such an obvious design flaw okay some of these can be valid complaints sometimes there's a story development that's a little too convenient like in the 2009 Star Trek Kirk just happens to get stranded on the same planet as old Spock and they end up in the same cave together so Spock can explain what's going on I like the movie but that's a little contrived and lazy but it's not a plot hole that depends on how ridiculous it is I think most viewers are willing to forgive stuff like the Death Star and Kirk's landing because while these things may be unlikely they don't break any rules and only involve small unnecessary suspensions of disbelief for the sake of the plot but the best stories flow naturally and relying on too many improbable events to move the story forward when you could offer a more organic explanation is a sign of imperfect writing and where the plot is constantly contrived to the point where it becomes unbelievable as in something like World War Z even if it's not a plot hole it's still worth pointing out [Music] at least 50% of the plotholes that I see people complain about are things that are actually explained in the movie if you just pay attention that's not an argument against plot holes that's an argument against people being wrong about certain things being plot holes and that's what you really have a problem with isn't it people being wrong but I guess if you're too busy live tweeting about plot holes you can miss some stuff if you want you can find plot holes anywhere they're all over your favorite movies again that's not really an argument against plot holes it's just an argument against nitpicking now comes his argument that plot holes don't matter and some of them don't there are a lot of things being called plot holes that I can either forgive or just don't care about these include narrative plot holes like why didn't the Good Witch just talk Dorothy to tap my heels together to get home when she first saw her because then there wouldn't have been a movie logical plot holes which break the laws of physics like there are no explosions in space because the alternative would be far more boring or continuity errors that don't affect the plot like the iron changing position in Forrest Gump because those are trivial mistakes are not really plot holes at all but Patrick lumps these minor things in the same category as more serious plot holes and tries to argue that they are all equally irrelevant look if you want to watch that this way you can even find plot holes in this video why am I wearing sunglasses to find inside I'm indoors in one shot and outdoors in the next but we never see me go outside plot hole do you see what I mean he tries to discredit and ridicule his opponents by pulling the world's biggest straw man out of his ass mentioning completely trivial things that no one would actually give a [ __ ] about right after mentioning some particularly famous plot holes by implication making these two categories out to be one and the same now come his actual arguments in support of his position so even though most people are using the term plot hole incorrectly all of these complaints are rooted in the same thing logic logic movies aren't about logic they're not equations they're not proofs they're not puzzles movies are not math indeed they're not and they don't have to be completely airtight but every transition from A to B has to be believable and make sense according to the film's own rules and again this is a bit of a straw man because few people are saying that films should be mechanical but all of their parts do need to fit together into some kind of cohesive structure the film has to make sense none of these things actually matter because they're not what a movie is about on the site movie plotholes calm there are seven plot holes listed for die hard the first one says that the villains plan is to stage a hostage situation so that the police will shut down power to the building allowing them to access the vault but since they would have already had detailed plans of the building you could have just shut down tower themselves making the whole thing more simple die hard is a movie about an ordinary man thrown into an impossible situation who needs to rise to the occasion and persevere so that he can reunite with his estranged wife that's the point of the movie that's what it's about some plot holes like that one don't matter because they don't distract from the story but when one does distract from the story it shouldn't be ignored and just because the movie is about a certain thing doesn't mean we should excuse writing that's obviously terrible because the overall story is focused on that thing let's explore this further by looking at his next example take Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire at the climax of the story Harry reaches the Triwizard Cup which turns out to have been turned into a port team that transports him to Voldemort so the villains whole plan a hinged on Harry being the one to get to the cup first and win the tournament but really any random object could have been turned into a port Pete and they could have sent him to Baltimore way earlier without all that hassle but that doesn't matter to pick apart the logic of the villains plan would mean totally disengaging from the story sometimes as in the Harry Potter case yes but again it's a matter of degree other times like in Superman Returns when Lex Luthor wants to own the real estate rights to an entire continent made of tonight which is incapable of sustaining life the villains scheme is so obviously stupid that it's unbelievable especially for a supposed genius like Luther again it's bad writing this is also another instance where Patrick uses a bad example Voldemort chose the Triwizard Cup and not just any old object the cose has an attachment to certain objects of sentimental value as established in the franchise whereas Luthor's plan is so out of sync with his pre established character as an evil genius that the film contradicts itself he stops being a character and he becomes a plot device but the real reason that Voldemort's plan is forgivable but Luthor's is not is that the latter is so nonsensical that it has a major impact on the integrity of the narrative itself as does his next example I can't believe he used this one that infamous plot thread from Star Wars the last Jedi Admiral holder refusing to tell Poe a plan Patrick uses this as an example of an illogical decision made for the purpose of creating conflict the argument being that if everyone acted logically there would be no drama and no story Poe would never send Finn on a mission and Finn would never grow and Poe would never grow and there would be no story no the writers would have just had to write something better because again good writers create conflict and drama in ways that make sense and also aldo explains why she doesn't tell him to plan she doesn't trust him he just stopped and got demoted she has no reason to no reasons for withholding the information didn't make sense that's the point again if you think this is a plot hole or you're annoyed because of the logic here you're kind of watching movies wrong ah okay okay soon I'll let it out soon there are tons of feature-length videos discussing everything wrong with that film this point included so I'll just leave it there and I'll repeat my counter argument characters do not always have to act logically but they cannot act randomly their actions have to be plausible this is also just another straw man made obvious by his showing a clip of community where the characters come up with a film in which everyone acts completely rationally we should call 9-1-1 and my fully charged cell phone lock the doors and then stand back-to-back in the middle of the room holding knives ha look how ridiculous these people are for caring about writing I'm in no way telling you to turn your brain off or to not think critically about movies not at all really because that's exactly what it sounds like you're doing I'm saying you should worry about the things that actually matter okay that's fair enough but the Hal DOE and Poe situation and all the other serious plot holes I've mentioned do actually matter using the example of Batman vs Superman his point here is that it's not plot holes that make a film bad potholes aren't the real problem so we shouldn't care about it but those aren't the real problems with the movie the actual problems are that many of the central characters are totally static and poorly motivated and they don't learn anything or grow through the story and the one major moment of growth is caused by a ridiculous plot contrivance so as much as I enjoy making fun of some dumb logic gaps in that movie they still don't really matter that's Bing stupid you can't say that something isn't a problem just because something else is a bigger problem you can find plot holes or logic gaps in any movie and if you want to go right ahead just don't tell me that those are genuine flaws and problems and reasons that a movie is bad because they're not yes they are are you kidding me a film's writing is as integral to the film as its editing lighting and every other aspect of its composition and is therefore a perfectly legitimate subject of critique and criticism should we not criticize a film's editing or directing or lighting do errors in these fields not impact on the quality of a film so why are illogical or inconsistent plots not a genuine floor if a plot doesn't make sense if there are explanatory gaps in the story if the characters act out of character with no good reason then that affects the quality of that film and might make it a bad one and didn't you just contradict yourself by criticizing Batman vs. Superman for its characters being poorly motivated many of the central characters are totally static and poorly motivated and they don't learn anything or grow through the story and the one major moment of growth is caused by a ridiculous plot contrivance why are poor characterizations and plot contrivance is bad but holls aren't you recognize that storytelling can be flawed by being poorly written but refused to admit that plot holes are an example of bad writing which they are you're asking us to sit down shut up and not think about these issues movies deserve more credit than this they deserve to be taken seriously as an art form and a medium for telling stories if they are to be taken seriously then they have to be open to criticism even that which we would both consider nitpicky it's not elitist to say that certain films are better written or certain narratives are better constructed than others nor is it elitist to prefer films with well-constructed narratives but you know what is elitist sayings like this though I know it seems impossible to watch movies wrong but you're watching movies wrong oh I'm sorry for expecting the characters to be fleshed out for the universe to be coherent and for the narrative to make sense ya know not cough this is by far the most insulting and aggravating part of the video the statement that goes too far it's one thing to say that you don't care about plot holes that's a difference of opinion it's another thing to say that I shouldn't care about plot holes that's very presumptuous but it's another thing entirely to say that I'm objectively wrong for caring about plot holes as I said earlier many people like to be as critical as possible when they're watching a film that's part of the enjoyment for them these plot holes however minor matter for them because that's how they like to watch and talk about films why are they wrong for doing this why is their way of watching a film objectively worse than yours why do you think it's acceptable to ridicule people who are so deeply invested in the law of the universe in which the film is set that they do care about the minor details and they do want to see the film take that law into account and then there's those for whom when they go to watch a movie they want to view it as a well-crafted satisfying story they treat films like they would a great piece of art or a novel they appreciate movies with solid writing and characterization and dislike those with bad writing for them part of the enjoyment comes from watching a well-constructed believable narrative unfold in a way that is consistent with the setting and characters being presented to them and who the [ __ ] are you to tell them tell us that we're wrong for thinking that way though we don't want to just switch off our brains ignore glaring issues and just stare at the pretty lights who the [ __ ] are you to completely invalidate our appreciation of the craft of storytelling if anything you are objectively wrong because saying that glaring plot holes don't affect the quality or integrity of a story is objectively wrong you can say you don't care about them that's fine but don't try and tell us that they don't matter but there's one even more important group to whom you've offered the worst insult Adam from your movie sucks made this point better than I would have so I'll just read what he had to say there are writers and directors out there who put painstaking efforts into their stories to make sure everything is as concise and logical as possible there are also writers and directors who don't put in those efforts at all if inconsistencies in plot and character action don't matter at all then how can you even appreciate those efforts made by filmmakers who legitimately care you're not just dealing it amazing those who discuss their films your dealer JIT amaizing the filmmakers themselves you're saying there's no difference between a lazy script littered with inconsistencies versus a thoroughly researched laid out thoughtful script that made every effort they possibly could to make the story characters and universe as consistent and believable as possible that's just nonsense and it's upsetting that you refuse to see any value whatsoever in filmmakers who put those extra efforts into their work yes Adam [ __ ] yes Patrick you could have just made the perfectly valid point that some people care way too much about minor details in films you could have said why you personally didn't like this and why you personally didn't watch films this way but you went too far people's tastes their sources of enjoyment and their ways of interpreting media change over time and that whole bit at the end where you complain about nitpicky videos becoming too popular and there being a cultural shift towards surface level criticism the way you go about it makes you come across as an arrogant old tosser complaining that people aren't enjoying things in the way that you enjoy them and that you're clinging to a past where people didn't hold movies up to the scrutiny that they deserve a past which by your own admission is not coming back and now for my final thoughts so look watch whatever YouTube videos you want think whatever you want about movies just please no we won't now [ __ ] off thanks for watching guys let me know what you thought about my video and Patricks in the comments down below I do genuinely want to know what you guys think about plot holes just remember to be civil I don't actually bear this guy any ill-will we're just two people who are passionate about their opinions and slightly obnoxious about presenting them and do stick around for future reviews next up I'll be talking about disenchantment so yeah until then

Channel: Cynical Reviews

Views: 840,440

Keywords: shut up about plot holes, plot holes, response, reply, comment, criticism, counterargument, Commentary, Film, Television, Media, Discussion, Nitpicks, Nitpicking, Cinema Sins, YMS, Yourmoviesucks, Movies, Review, stop talking about plot holes, importance of plot holes, plot holes matter, opinion, debate, Cynical Reviews, Cynical Reviews Plotholes, Cynical Reviews Patrick Willems, Patrick Willems, Patrick Willems Shut up about plot holes, plot holes argument, plot holes response, plot holes reply

Id: 9zx50GiqKjg

Length: 24min 41sec (1481 seconds)

Published: Mon Sep 03 2018

Reddit Comments

[u/Iknowmuhwheat]

Is it just me or do I notice a pattern of on edge cynical Brits/Americans reviewing movies or talking politics on YouTube? When did this come into fashion?

[u/danegustafun]

WHY IS IT ALWAYS FURRIES

[u/[deleted]]

Saying that solely relying on plotholes is lazy film criticism is impeding on his ability to criticize films based on plot holes! How dare they!

[u/mr_chainsaw555]

Looks like someone beat me to it :P (posting the vid here I mean)

[u/Bryaintic]

oh go who's this moron