Why Modern Men Look Elsewhere for Spiritual Wisdom

be harder not softer be more demanding not less demanding go against the Instinct that says oh God get the kids or get the the young high school kids we gotta really bend over no no backwards I'd say no on the contrary challenge them welcome back to the word on fire show I'm Brandon Vaught the host and the senior publishing director at word on fire at a time when many men are leaving the church why are so many young men gravitating toward books and podcasts promoting stoicism or the Frank talk of Jordan Peterson or the numerous bodybuilding training types on Instagram and what can the church learn from all of this well that's what we'll discuss today with Bishop Barron who joins us from our interim Production Studio in Rochester I'll get to why I said that in a moment but Bishop good to see you hey Brandon always a joy to you we have been working long and hard to develop a more permanent Studio solution there in Rochester and I'm happy to say at the time of this recording it is almost finished can you tell us a little bit about it yeah so we had a nice studio in Santa Barbara and we had to pick all that up all the equipment and lights and cameras everything else and move them out here to Minnesota and then we um rented some space right in downtown Rochester right near the Mayo Clinic and beautiful space but then we had to get it ready and you know rework it and all that and finally it's there and it's it's wonderful it's beautiful so all these um podcasts and sermons and programs will be coming now from this new studio right in the heart of Rochester fact he walk out the door and you're looking up to your right if there's the giant main building of a Mayo Clinic uh so it's in a nice spot so very excited about that it's going to allow us to revive the bishop Baron presents series which I know was a big hit it's going to allow us to produce a lot of our own Institute shows and much more so this is really a key that's going to unlock a lot of new content for us one little teaser to people uh you know the table we've used for the bishop Aaron presents we had a wonderful opportunity to spot a month ago I won't tell you it was but it was uh it'll be a really interesting pretty prominent people I talk to and we ship the table down to where they were so we did a bishop Aaron presents it'll be coming out in a couple months but uh watch for that but you're right now the table is going to be in our in our new studio speaking of building and developing you also have inaugurated a new project as Bishop of Ramona Rochester you had the groundbreaking for your new pastoral Center tell us about that real happy about that uh this was plans were underway when I became bishop and then once I I got in the saddle I realized this is really a good idea so we're moving our pastoral Center the Chancery office from Winona where it's been since the beginning of the diocese 1889 in different buildings but it's always been in Winona and we're moving it now up to Rochester for all kinds of good reasons I think and because of the generosity of a particular donor it's staggering generosity who gave us the land and the money to build it we broke ground and it'll be ready um I hope in less than a year from when you you broadcast this uh this podcast and then we'll be have a new Center of pastoral activity for our diocese the chapel is going to be really beautiful uh I brought in a Catholic architect to kind of catholicize the designs a bit I thought they they were they were functional but they didn't have kind of a Catholic character and the chapel especially will be gorgeous so I hope a year from now we'll be up and running in the new building well today I want to talk about a recent article that was published over at the website The Gospel Coalition it was written by a man named Shane Morris and it was titled savior or stoic why modern men look for wisdom outside the church in this article Morris observes that a growing number of young men are filling a moral and spiritual void in their lives by turning to Modern self-help books based on Ancient stoic thinkers such as Marcus Aurelius Seneca and Epictetus now we've done an episode in the past on stoicism and Christianity that was episode 219 where we compared those two World Views but in this discussion I'd specifically like to focus on why stoicism has become so appealing to many young men today and what lessons we might learn from this Dynamic so let me ask you something you've raised many times why has it been that contemporary Christianity has failed by and large to reach young men we're facing attrition across the board you and I talk about it all the time but we do seem to do somewhat better with young women than young men why is that why do we have such difficulty engaging young men we haven't made it hard and challenging I agree with Jordan Peterson when he and I had a conversation oh probably a couple years ago now he made that point and you know I came of age in the period after Vatican too when we did you know for different reasons I'm not blaming those who did it but uh we kind of softened the operation in many ways we did rather feminize the the language and style and Men I think respond to being challenged they want hard difficult things to do they want a sense of mission and purpose and I think we got pretty bad at doing that we you know friend I'll tell you exactly what it was the Instinct you know we better be as kind of nice and inviting as we can otherwise they're going to run away we're going to lose the young people unless we you know make it as easy for them as possible well of course it's this irony that it had the absolute effect that's in a way why they ran away that we didn't make it hard and challenging this goes back many years my mother I remember saying this uh we were at Mass we were kids at the time and it was the um the passion reading right and the priest got up and said you know everybody don't feel obligated to stand during this whole thing if you want to sit you know it's I know it's long and it's a lot to listen to so sit down if you want to and we got home my mother said it kind of shaking her head and she said when when I was a little girl we were told stand and don't move during the past reading because you're meant to participate in the suffering of Jesus and so to try to be as still as you can now okay it's a silly example but it was the Church willing to call people to something more challenging and say look this thing is meant to be hard something we you know in my experience we've I don't know if it's true for you Brandon but we've kind of done away with a good Friday when we do the petitions there's that rhythm of of kneeling and then standing well you know it's hard I don't want to over dramatize it but there's a lot of these petitions I have about 20 or so I think we do and Neil and then Stan and then kneel and then stand but of course the whole idea was you're participating in the suffering of Jesus it's good Friday you know it's meant to be hard but very often I'd say people oh well you know that's that's a little much let's not have people do all that kneeling standing stuff that's too hard for them I think that instinct pushed a lot of young men away still does as Peterson said correctly I think make it harder make it more demanding and young men will find it more enticing you mentioned already Jordan Peterson a couple times I want to ask you about the so-called Jordan Peterson phenomenon and here I'm not specifically talking about his political or cultural activity we can disagree with him on all sorts of things but I want to focus specifically on his biblical lectures on YouTube and his philosophical self-help books such as 12 rules for life which was a massive bestseller millions and millions of copies sold both of those things the biblical lectures on YouTube and his books are very very popular among young men he's clearly struck a chord he's discovered a way to present the scriptures and basic moral philosophy to many people why do you think he's been so successful as a spiritual guide to young men what does he do right because in a not total sense because you know the Bible has so many different dimensions to it and and uh I don't know if Jordan is there yet when it comes to the kind of deepest or highest kind of mystical dimension of the Bible but when it comes to the moral sense and that's what the church fathers would have called it the moral sense of scripture but it's calling us to A Renewed life he's darn good at that I think and he lets the Bible be the Bible how many times when I was growing up did sermons emphasize how good we are uh how loved we are uh you're okay you know God loves you and we're the Bible you know having again been rather immersed last many years doing all these commentaries man the Bible is a is a rough text in many ways it is a really challenging text I'm working as we speak right now on the Prophet Jeremiah you think like you know I'm okay you're okay and God loves you everything's gonna be fine then read any page any paragraph of the book of Jeremiah and you'll find that completely contradicted Peterson I think is put his finger on the Deep moral demand and I call it this the Deep spiritual honesty of the Bible is telling us very profound truths often difficult truths to take in about ourselves and then calling us to something really heroic well look who comes to his lectures people are running away from the churches they're running toward people like him uh and please don't the people on the left drive me crazy on this that always some kind of fascist you know Neo-Nazi that's that's all um self call it exculpating nonsense it's their way of making excuses for their own failure no no Peterson is naming something very real and very true and young people are responding to especially young men and I'm not I'm not surprised by that they like call it spiritual honesty and moral Challenge and he's providing both of those the author of this article I'd referenced Shane Morris highlights three figures that he thinks represent this movement so Peterson is one of them the other two are Ryan holiday and Jaco willink Ryan holiday has become well known for popularizing the stoics he's written several books that are used by NFL coaches and Executives and upstart CEOs and then Jocko willink is a former Navy SEAL who has written lots of books on discipline and responsibility in life Shane Morris the author says if we had to distill the message common to all three of these figures Peterson will link holiday he said it might be this twofold teaching first the good life eudaimania is a virtuous one based on lasting moral principles that Forge meaning in The Crucible of suffering and two each individual is called out of nihilism and Hedonism to take responsibility and live such a life I'd like your thoughts on each of those two teachings so let's begin with the first one again the good life is a virtuous one based on lasting moral principles that Forge meaning in The Crucible of suffering what do you think about that it's right out of Aristotle you know when I was a young guy Robert sokolowski took us through the Nicoma key and ethics of Aristotle which is one of the great books in the whole Western tradition and that's Aristotle's point of view you know is that we we're all seeking happiness that's where that word eudaimonia and greed comes from it means like having a good Demon in you you demonias you have a good spirit where does it come from aerosol says comes from from the virtues where the virtues come from they come from habituation so it's by doing The Virtuous thing even when I don't fully understand it even when I'm not the master of it but I'm I'm going to do The Virtuous thing over and over and over again until it works its way into my mind my soul my body and then I become habituated to Virtue and I become thereby a virtuous person which means I do the right thing more or less effortlessly as it means to be a virtuous person um most people fall into the vicious Camp which means we tend to do the wrong thing easily right so that's what a vicious person is uh I Vice has so found its way into my body and mind and soul that I easily fall into it so it's through habituation and moral education and above all for Aristotle the example of the good man and see that's where he's different from a purely Socratic or platonic view that would say no just clarify the good and people will do it the reason they don't do good things is they don't understand and Aristotle was much more of a realist than Plato and said sure that's part of it but it's things like habituation and the modeling provided by a good person that draws me more and more into the stance of virtue so our great tradition as you know Brandon has largely accepted the Aristotelian framework we would speak happily of the natural virtues or the cardinal virtues they're called sometimes uh cardo means hinge they're the hinge virtues right upon which your life turns and they include Justice temperance Etc right so that framework yeah our great tradition says yes we affirm that now just to anticipate but we also say something else see so that's as even as I affirm what you just said there and the way it was defined I'm also as a as a Catholic bishop and theologian I'm I'm going to draw back of it too because the church adds something of enormous importance maybe we'll we'll get there I want to ask you about the last few words of that first principle that these moral principles Forge meaning in The Crucible of suffering it strikes me that that's that's answering this this quandary that a lot of young men have today how do I respond to the sufferings and failures of life and this this is giving them some sort of answer well let me say this too about suffering uh so for Aristotle I would say the hinge virtue is is Justice which is like doing the right thing or it's giving to each is due right so right now we're treating each other with respect that's an act of Justice because I owe that to you it's due to you if I start treating you with contempt I'm not acting justly well in the course of the day everything I do should be just it should be rendering to others what's due to them okay now Justice is threatened from the inside and from the outside from the inside my own disordered nature threatens justice so I know I should be kind to that person but it really bugs me you know I really got mad at him so my anger is now getting in the way of my doing the just thing or my uh my lust or what whatever it is is blocking me from doing the right thing so what do I need I need Temperance that's the virtue that controls the threat that comes from inside of me right now the other threat comes from the outside so I know I should do this but if I do I'm going to get attacked or now go on a battlefield I know I should be defending my country but if I do I'm going to be in danger of losing my life now external threats to Justice are occurring what do I need courage to face them down so do suffering both from the outside and from the inside so in The Crucible of suffering through courage and Temperance I'm now conditioned to do the just or the right thing the last virtue being Prudence which is just it's moral know-how so I mean how do I know what the right thing to do in this present circumstances that's Prudence but I would put the suffering thing under under the rubric of temperance and and courage let's look at that second key stoic teaching represented by these three figures here it is each individual is called out of nihilism and Hedonism to take responsibility and live such a good life Shane Morris the author writes later in the piece that men strongly resonate with the philosophy in which their individual choices and actions really matter and stoicism teaches this that you should do what's right regardless of how it feels regardless of of who knows it thoughts about this teaching yeah again this classical aristotelianism too and and the church affirms that and then our our choices matter um go back here to John Paul II you know that when I make a moral choice I'm choosing to do a particular moral thing but I'm also in that very Act helping to create my character so with each act so even the two of us right now being kind to each other that's in a positive way creating our character right we're becoming more and more of the people we want to be when I choose wrongly I'm doing a wrong thing but I'm also unmaking myself right I'm also unraveling myself producing a bad character so do our choices matter yeah absolutely um in becoming the people that that I would say God wants us to be you know uh which is now introducing another element of this thing but as far as it goes I think all this natural level yeah I affirm all that and see it's much needed because we live and that's the the nihilistic thing there are no values I just make it up as I go along uh don't tell me what to do I'm My Own Boss see all of that is just deadly as I've often said it's like saying just give me that five iron and I'll swing it any way I want to and well you'll be the worst golfer in America right uh give me that violin don't tell me how to play it I'll just I'll just figure it out unless you're a genius maybe you're a genius by the way Aristotle called that a Godlike man it's very interesting he had that category that there might be a god-like man that doesn't even need to be habituated because he just is he's virtuous off the scale but they said look that's so rare that's not even bother talking about it right so if we can fall into that sort of weird like just give me the violin because I'm just you know I'm I'm at Zach Pearlman by some miracle no but 99.9 percent of us need a lot of habituation in order to internalize the virtues of playing a violin same with the moral life which is why nihilism and all that is is a complete disaster what's Hedonism but well I just what makes me what gives me pleasure that's all that matters well yeah then you'll live like a child that's the way a three-year-old lives you know that's why we have to discipline kids and move them along you know that we're raising your own kids if we just left them to their own devices they'd be 30 year old hedonists plenty of them by the way right there are plenty of them by the way in the world that were never disciplined never brought into a moral Consciousness and so just please me whatever gives me pleasure those are both moral disasters and people suffer from both of those things I agree with that nihilism Hedonism you will suffer from that what liberates you is precisely the path of virtue and and the modeling provided by a good person you know who will tell you to shape up look at Brandon in our Western tradition Eastern too we used to look in the Buddhist Traditions the importance of a spiritual guide of a spiritual Mentor look at Virgil with Dante you know there's somebody that is guiding you along the spiritual path no no I'm okay you're okay I make my own mind I decide what good and evil are yeah good luck with that program I don't want to put words in your own mouth but it seems like one thing you're gesturing toward is that we as a church and we as a culture have dropped the the ball when it comes to providing mentors into masculinity it strikes me that these names we've already mentioned Ryan holiday Jocko willink Jordan Peterson the author adds a few more later in his article Joe Rogan Tim Ferris and Brett McKay whom you recently spoke with on his own manliness podcast all of these men are filling a gap that we have that whether you know young men didn't have father figures or priest figures or adult male friends whatever the case they lacked that initiation that mentorship that maybe past Generations receive yeah and the proofs in the pudding you know the very fact that these people are retracting a lot of young men to them that proves it you know I don't know if you remember Brandon I've ever seen this movie uh Boys Town from 1940 I think Spencer Tracy plays father Flanagan right the founder Boys Town yeah and the other star of the movie is a young very young Mickey Rooney and he's this tough straight kid you know and the movie is all about how father Flanagan this you know in a way mild-mannered priest and good-hearted priest but was a very tough mentor to this street kid and brought him to the point of virtue but it was the priest as moral hero you know not as hey you're just great his name is Whitey the kid you're just great Whitey everything you say and do is wonderful I affirm you in every way hey tell me how you feel about this there wasn't an ounce of that it was a it was a a tough demanding priest who was leading this kid and watched the movie the the great Spencer Tracy who won the Academy Award that year for uh his role watch him work watch how a mentor does his work and I think we have largely lost that want to bring this back to Christianity for a moment in his article Shane Morris tell has a telling anecdote he says quote the contrast between stoicism and the attitude common in churches today is hard to miss I think of a friend who started a Friday morning book study with other Christian men who felt they needed more than they were getting in church in terms of understanding specific ways that Christ's manhood could inform theirs he observed that the goal of men's bible studies often feels suspiciously like replicating women's Bible studies complete with frequent expressions of vulnerability and emotional intimacy for my friend he says the problem was simple the call to be like Jesus often sounded like a call to be less of a man and as he explained at this inaugural Friday study all the men around him agreed that seems to me to raise an important question is there is there something distinct about the way men are called to follow Christ as disciples we've seen lots of men's groups conferences I think of Exodus 90 the aesthetical program in the church what else can we be doing to disciple men in particular well everything we've talked about but I think to your question yes and we should avoid you know easy stereotypes you know of course there's there's variations within this but generally speaking yes men don't like sitting in a circle sharing their feelings uh men prefer I think a challenge they like to be given something hard to do some into Mission and action I think men respond to that more readily again generally speaking all that um so I think everyone we've talked about would be valuable if you want to get men more involved be harder not softer be more demanding not less demanding go against the Instinct that says oh God get the kids or get the the young high school kids we gotta really bend over no no backwards I'd say no on the contrary challenge them challenge them um bring them on a hike in the woods or something you know and have them do something that's physically demanding um and then give them a moral and spiritual challenge I think that men would respond better to that Reid you know what's good on that is Dr Sachs um Leonard sax who wrote these books on girls and boys and men and women and um you know as articulated psychologically how men and women are very different in the way they respond to things but can I we are we Running Out of Time Brandon because I do want to make a I think a very important Point here having said all of that and not gain saying a bit of it right so I I affirm everything we've just been saying the the danger is this and it's a very old problem uh Saint Augustine wrestle with it the danger is pelagianism right so Pelagius who taught at the same time as Augustine you know I know we're all Sinners and we're all Fallen but with enough get up and go and decision and and you know do the right thing um you know we can we can save ourselves we can find our way forward just you know um pull yourself up by your bootstraps and and be a morally upright person and and you'll be okay and see Augustine one of his signal contributions was to speak against Pelagius now why because if Pelagius is right then we don't need a savior if Pelagius is right and Plagueis has a million descendants up and down the centuries to the present day and see I I'm not going to give that title to the people we've been talking about but that's the shadow that's the shadow it's a pelagian shadow is I can save myself follow these steps and you'll be a happy upright person go back to Romans chapter 7 and Augustine was deeply indebted to Paul as you know the good that I would do that's what I don't do and the evil that I would avoid that's what I do who will deliver me from this body of death Paul as answer Jesus Christ my savior see Paul coming out of the great biblical tradition understood something that none of the ancient philosophers did the ancient philosophers believed to varying degrees in programs of perfectability right so Plato just get your thoughts straightened out and you'll be good Aristotle well yeah figure thoughts out but then get yourself habituated to Virtue and you'll become virtuous but no one in the biblical framework thinks it's as simple as that so even as we affirm that moral tradition the virtues and habit and all those good things it's got to be placed in a wider spiritual context which deeply acknowledges my own incapacity my my own inability to save myself I cannot by an act of the will save myself because the will is the problem it's like um revving an engine the engine's not working just try it again just try it again just try it again you won't until the will is saved and and I play with that before you know the word save is related to salus in Latin and Salve which means Health to you right and that's like the word Sav there has to be a healing at a very fundamental level before these virtues can really be exercised and come to life um in a word the natural virtues have to be elevated supernaturalized by the theological virtues faith hope and love right see what's faith faith is now opening my life to a Transcendent Dimension to God I I can't solve this problem on my own the more I try the worse it's going to be the 12-step programs have it exactly right when they say you've got to surrender your life to a higher power now I think that higher power has a name I get more specific but uh faith what's hope well hope is something that that natural virtue won't give you Plato didn't know about Hope neither Aristotle hope is now the ordering of my life and his totality toward the Transcendent right and then finally love what's love this willing the good of the other notice how that goes beyond Justice Justice rendering to each his due okay okay love though is is the radicalization of that see my point is there has to be this surrender to Grace and then Grace can transfigure the whole of my life and I can take all the stuff we've been talking about and now it's raised up to a to a higher pitch and I can find my salvation there but the I guess the shadow of Peterson willink and Company and Aristotle would be pelagianism so yeah we want to avoid this um let's sit around share our feeling stuff um but we also want to avoid pelagianism and and it's on that in that space now read Aquinas that you want the whole treatment read acquaintance on the virtues that's the space we got to move into [Music] well it's time now for our question from one of our listeners every episode we play one question if you have one for Bishop Baron you can send it in to us at the website askbishop barron.com today we hear from a delightful young man in Nashville named Michael who was newly baptized he says thanks in part to word on fire and he's got a question about one of the other sacraments here's Michael's question foreign my name is Michael and I'm in Nashville and I was just baptized a couple of months ago thanks in no small part to word on fire so thank you for that I'm preparing to receive the sacrament of reconciliation for the first time and I was hoping you could give me some tips on what makes for a good confession how specific do I need to be with my sins is there any preparation that I should be doing any advice you have would be greatly appreciated thanks and God bless yeah thank you for that question it's a good one um you know preparing I hope too that you're a local priest so someone close the ground that knows you could also help you through this process of preparing um to go into the confession with confessional with a real sense of of Contrition is important you know that's necessary really to receive the grace of the sacrament that you contritions from the Latin word meaning crushed that you you really feel the weight of your sins that you're you don't take in the the word of our culture that you know we're all fine and don't worry about it though you know what sin is uh you're contrite you're open to the Lord's Grace you're going there seeking the Lord's Grace you're not seeking you know to to like flagellate yourself or or to take on added guilt you're coming with a real sense of of wanting to receive the grace of of Christ in terms of of preparation too I'd mention um something as simple as the Ten Commandments I find that to be a helpful way get out your scripture or find them online or whatever and find the Ten Commandments and walk through those and examine your conscience by them you know have I honored God have I gone to Mass on Sunday have I used the lord's name in vain do I honor my parents and authorities in my life have I stolen remember maybe maybe something physical or I've stolen someone's reputation you know um hope you haven't killed anybody but you know what I'm saying is is walk your way through the Ten Commandments could be a good way to prepare and then you know even make some notes there for yourself and say oh yeah you know this and that so something I use a lot what I prepare for confession are the deadly sins Pride Envy anger sloth avarice gluttony and lust um I find that's a very useful way for me to examine my conscience to look at each of those deadly sins and where have these found expression in my life so don't leave it at the abstract level that's where you think about you know how specific well without becoming obsessive there could be an obsessive you know I'm counting 17 times rather I'd say take those General categories like Pride then okay this is my last confession where is that found expression in my life Envy you know can I think of times when I really was envious of somebody anger yeah I've only lost several I believe I lost my temper I was really angry um sloth you know I I mean there are days I just kind of wasted my time and I sat around and I had no spiritual energy so use the the seven deadly sins as a way to examine your conscience and then um say hail Mary as you go into the confessional just to order your spirit to what what's going to happen I those are a few simple things I'd suggest great recommendations thanks Michael and thanks all of you for watching and listening before we wrap up I want to remind you again to pick up your copy of Bishop Aaron's newest book it's called This is my body a call to Eucharistic Revival only 31 of Catholics believe in the real presence of Jesus and the Eucharist we need your help to change that that's why we're releasing this book we're offering it for only two dollars a copy if you want just one copy you can get it for two bucks and pay for shipping and handling but if you buy it in bulk in orders of 20 copies or 50 copies the shipping is free and it's only two dollars a copy so get a box pass them out to friends and family members we're especially hoping that priests and pastors of parishes order them for all of their parishioners so we can help change this misunderstanding about the Eucharist again you can get the the new book for two dollars with free shipping at the website wordonfire.org Eucharist thanks so much for watching and listening we'll see you next time on the word on fire show foreign [Music]

Channel: Bishop Robert Barron

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Id: avROODXQlhE

Length: 35min 18sec (2118 seconds)

Published: Mon Jun 19 2023