- So, Drew, I just got back from Mexico and I spent my birthday down
there with some friends. It was a great time. I have three takeaways. The first is that Mexico City
punches way above its weight in terms of food and history. I always knew the food in Mexico was good, but holy shit. The tacos, the guac, the tortillas, man. I could bathe in tortillas
made in Mexico City, hand padded and baked by
the hands of the Aztecs. It was phenomenal. Long-time listeners know that I set a goal of running a marathon on my birthday. A lot of people texted me, said, "Hey, how's the marathon going?" My response was, "I'm
running a marathon of tacos and it is going quite well." Literally, the second we
turned on, hit Record, there's a lawnmower outside my window. (Mark and Drew laughing) It's like he was fucking
waiting for us to hit Record. Why does this always happen? I feel like someone is paying a yards man to follow me around and
wait until I record anything and then turn on a lawnmower
the second I start. God. - [Announcer] Bro, do you even podcast? Like, bro. This is the "The Subtle Art
of Not Giving a F*ck Podcast" with your host, Mark Manson. (upbeat music) - Second takeaway, I got
robbed for the first time ever. - Okay, I've been dying to hear this. (Mark laughing) What happened? - First of all, I was long overdue. I spent many, many years
living in developing countries, and I resigned myself very early
on of like, "You know what? One day, I'm gonna get robbed. That's just the cost of
living in a place like this." And ironically, I never got robbed. So I was always just like
mentally prepared for it and then it never happened. Well, of course, I go on
this quick three-day trip. It literally happened on my
birthday, had my phone stolen, but I gotta give the guys
credit 'cause they did it well. This was no-bullshit job. Like, this was well-coordinated,
well-thought-out. So we went to a soccer
game at Estadio Azteca, and we were huge crowd of people waiting to get into the stadium. And I had my phone in my front pocket, and I felt like I was aware,
knew what was happening. And it's so funny, dude,
like instinct kicks in. About five minutes later, a group of girls breaks
out in a fist fight literally right next to me. Like, three Mexican girls pulling hair, just wailing on each other, closed fists. And the crowd starts getting
pushed around and I'm like, "Holy fucking shit," and my immediate instinct is
to reach out and grab my wife, and put her behind me, and
make sure like she's okay. And then two seconds later, I realize, "Oh, shit, that's the mistake." And as soon as I put my hand
in my pocket, the phone's gone. And so it's... Clearly, the girls were in on it. Clearly, there was somebody behind me who was in position and ready to do it. Of course, I'm like the only
gringo in the whole place so I stick out like a sore thumb. So after it happened, I was
like, "Okay, well-played. You got me." There is a lesson here, which is, I think, and I apply this in a
lot of areas of my life, which is most good things
in life have some sort of, I just call them a tax,
like a lifestyle tax, right? Like, when you buy your dream home, you're gonna be responsible for the upkeep of that dream home. Like, stuff's gonna break,
you're gonna plumbing problems. Your neighbor might be an asshole. Like, that is just the
unspoken lifestyle tax of owning that dream home. If you want to go on vacation on the other side of the world, you're gonna deal with long flights and lots of layovers, and there's more opportunities for unexpected things to happen. That's just the tax of booking
such a epic, massive trip. And if you're gonna spend a lot of time in developing parts of the world, you're gonna put yourself in situations where you can get robbed
and/or pickpocketed rather. And I accepted a long time ago that that is simply a
lifestyle tax of loving and being in these parts of the world. So they finally got me, I
made it to 40, unscathed. And then the day I
crossed the finish line. - You got off pretty easy, too. You weren't like robbed at knife point or anything like that, which you hear stories of that, - It can get a lot, lot worse. Yeah, there are some real horror stories. Third takeaway is travel is this weird way of building intimacy. It's interesting. So we went down there
with a group of friends that we've known here in LA for a while and we've hung out with them a bunch. But even though we didn't
spend any more time with them than we would in, say,
a typical weekend in LA, there's something about
the context switching, the foreignness of the environment, the intensity of the experience,
the cultural experience. It makes it feel much more personal. And we actually talked about this the last night we were there, which is like, it's so weird 'cause we literally did the
same things that we do in LA. Like we went to a game
and went to a restaurant, but it feels more intimate
and more personal, like it's a completely different vibe. That's a good segue into
this episode's topic. One of the most common questions that I get from readers these days is about adult friendships. How do you maintain them? How do you make them? How do you find good ones? How do you grow in them? This seems to be something that a lot of people,
say, over the age of 25 are struggling with right now. And we've done a lot of episodes on things like social
skills, and loneliness, and how the digital life is
complicating our social lives, and our psychology, and everything. But ultimately, there are
a lot of people out there struggling with simply making and maintaining adult friendships. And so today, what I'd
like to do is get into: What makes an adult friendship? How is it different than, say, adolescent or young adult friendships? Why is it so much harder? And then what are some
practical things that we can do to get better at it? It's funny when you do
research on friendship and what causes it. It's one of those areas of research that like every paper
you read, you're like, "Well, no shit, Sherlock,
that's so obvious." But basically, basically, psychologists
boil friendship down into four variables that influence how good of
friends you become with somebody. The first one is proximity. Second one is frequency,
how often you see them. So first one's how close
physically proximate to them, like how easy is it for
you to see them again? Second one is how often do you see them? Third one is duration. How much time do you spend together? You can actually kind
of just put frequency and duration together as
total time spent together. And then the third one, which I think is the most interesting one, is intensity or emotional intensity. So there's a variety of
things that go into that. Shared interests is really important. The intensity of the
experiences you share together is really important. If there's hardship or difficulty in the experiences that
you share together, that's also pretty significant. It's like guys who go
to war with each other, like fucking feel like brothers
for the rest of their lives, even if they don't see
each other for 10 years. We're gonna go through
each of these factors, look at how modern life
is complicating them and making them a little
bit more difficult, and also just how getting
older complicates them and makes them a little
bit more difficult. And then we'll wrap up
the end of the episode with some practical takeaways. So why don't we start with proximity? And this ties in a little bit with the episode we did a
couple weeks ago on loneliness to be physically close to people that you wanna see repeatedly. - Yeah. (Mark and Drew laughing) - That was me setting you up, Drew. - That's my cue, that's my cue. (Mark and Drew laughing) Okay, so yeah-
- Yeah, we're on... We're on fire this morning. (Mark and Drew laughing) - I did... Okay, no, I did dig some of this up. And it does really a lot
back to the episode we did on loneliness a couple weeks back. But for one, especially
since the pandemic, now that everybody's working remotely or they have some sort of like
hybrid set up with their work that's starting to complicate things. There was a Gallup study that's found even before the pandemic that there's like an emphasis
on work relationships and friendships. We want to have a good friend at work, and there's more emphasis on that, and it shows a greater
impact on job satisfaction, having a friend at work. At the same time that's happening, more of us are working remotely. And one of the biggest complaints that people cite about remote work is that they can't connect
with their coworkers as well and just the larger
company culture in general. And so you kind of touched on
this with Cal Newport, too. It's kind of a we want our cake
and we want to eat it, too. We want the flexibility
of that remote work, but we also want good friends at work. And those things, there's
a tension between those. This is a Pew research study. 71% of remote workers say that it improves their work-life balance, but over half of them also say that they have trouble
connecting with coworkers. So there's this weird
thing going on right now. I think we're in this transition phase where we're just trying to figure out how the hell we're
supposed to work remotely. I don't know, what do you
think is going on there? - Well, it makes sense to me. It's the water cooler effect, right? Like when you... I haven't seen any data on this, but I would imagine if you went back to, say, the '60s, '70s, and '80s, I would imagine that
most adult friendships originated either at work or parents of other children
that your children play with, simply because those are the people that you're gonna see repeatedly over an extended period of time. And I would say it's not
even just remote work. It is people switch jobs
much more frequently than they used to. Like, I remember when we
were entering the workforce, there were a lot of think pieces written about how millennials don't feel loyal to a company anymore, they'll leave after four or five years. Now, it's like people leave after a year and go find another job. So if you are jumping
from company to company every one, two, three years, again, you're not getting that frequency and that duration that's required to build a meaningful friendship. And then of course, you throw
remote work on top of that, and it just compounds everything. People are traveling a lot
more today than they used to. Millennials, both millennials and Gen Z, spend much more of their
disposable income on traveling. I know just personally, my friends seem to always be
on a fucking trip somewhere, which I can't even get mad
about because for years, I was always on a fucking trip somewhere. As someone who just moved to a new city and has been trying to make friends, that's been a frustrating
thing is you meet somebody, you really like them, you
hang out a couple times, and the next three times you text them, they're in Europe, or they're in New York, or they're at a work conference somewhere. So that is complicated things as well. I think it's just... Again, it comes back to this tension between freedom and connection
that you alluded to. It happens within the workplace, it happens between workplaces, and I think it also happens
outside of the workplace. The more freedom and
optionality that we have to be wherever we want whenever we want, the more difficult it is to
get that frequency and duration and that proximity that is necessary to build meaningful friendships. So that's the first one
is just the transience, the greater transience
of people these days. The second one that I marked
down is partners and kids and how they add exponential
layers of complexity. This has definitely been
a huge factor in my life. I think one thing that
happens when you get married, I think it happens a little bit
in a committed relationship, but it really seems to kick
in when you get married, which is it's no longer just
about finding one person that you get along with. You need to find a couple
that you get along with. And that is exponentially
more difficult because now, both of you need to sign off on two people instead of one person
signing off on one person. And you get in a lot of situations where I'll meet a guy that I
really enjoy hanging out with, and then my wife will meet his wife, and we go home after dinner or something, and my wife's like, "Eh. Yeah, no." (Mark and Drew laughing) - Yeah, yeah. - And I imagine a lot of single
people are listening to this and being like, "That's absurd. Like, you shouldn't
have to need your spouse to like sign off on their spouse." That is correct. If I just wanna like go surf, like have a surf buddy or something, like that's one thing. The problem is, is just that you have a very
limited amount of free time, and you wanna spend a
very significant amount of that free time with your spouse. And so if you can combine spending quality time with
your spouse with socializing, like that's a two-for-one. And so if you do find a couple where you like both people and the couple and they like both of you, they're always gonna get priority over the people that you
don't like both people. And so what happens is the people that one of you doesn't
approve of both of them, like they just slowly get
weeded out of your social life over time. That creates a lot of complexity. It's just a much higher
bar for people to clear. And then I think when you have kids, from friends of mine who have kids, it adds a whole another layer to that because, well, if the kids like each other but the parents don't get along, well, then that kind of sucks. Whereas if the parents get along but the kids don't like each other, that also sucks. So it's like every variable
you throw into the equation just ups the complexity even further. And it's hard. it's really... It's disappointing, a lot of times, so... Like, I can't tell you how many times where Fernanda will meet
somebody that she really likes, and she's like, "I really
hope you like their husband." And we like go somewhere with
them, and within five minutes, I'm like, "God, I cannot stand this guy." (Mark and Drew laughing) - [Drew] Yep.
- And I'm just like, I look at her, I'm like,
"I'm sorry, I'm so sorry." (Mark and Drew laughing) - The kids thing, I've been dealing with for
the last few years, too, and it's definitely... It definitely changes things
in a lot of different ways. I don't know, there's... I like kids. I'm weird, I guess, I don't know. I like kids and I'm good with kids. I don't necessarily-
- No, you're a good human, Drew, that's what you are. (Mark and Drew laughing) - I never thought of it that way. (Mark and Drew laughing) - You're not an asshole like me. - Yeah, yeah. (Mark laughing) You like kids, don't you?
- No, I don't. - You don't?
- Get them away from me. I don't like your kids,
keep them away from me. (Mark and Drew laughing) - Really? Oh, okay. I didn't know, I thought, I don't know. I thought you like kids.
- No, I don't... Let me put it this way. I don't dislike kids.
- Okay. Okay. - I've never hung out
with a kid and been like, "Wow, that was so cool,"
like, I've never... Like it's just like a, I don't know, they're just there. - I mean, I'm exhausted by the end of it, and usually I'm like, "Yeah,
go back to your parents, I'm done with you," by the end of it. But like, I don't know,
I'm pretty good with kids, and-
- I'm like that, too, but after like five seconds. (Mark laughing) - Oh, okay, now. I can do a few hours,
I can do a few hours. - I'm like, "Oh, cool, nice toy. Go back to your parents." (Mark and Drew laughing) - Okay. No, I'm not that bad, no. I've got the phone uncle
vibe going really well, I think, for me. So that helps with-
- It sounds like it. It sounds like it.
- With my, yeah. So I've had a few friends who've had kids over the last few years, all kind of had them... Like started having kids
around the same time. So they're all kind of the same age and they all kind of get along. So I don't know, I'm just
lucky in that regard. But I also, like, I'm good with kids. I can entertain them and they... I think we're probably on
the same emotional level for at least a couple hours. (Mark and Drew laughing) - You relate to them.
- I relate to them. - You relate to their problems. - I definitely can, I definitely can. (Mark laughing) So that helps if you can put on the fun uncle/fun aunt vibe or whatever. But I get it, not
everybody's like that, so... And it just changes. Those friends, too, a lot of... We used to do, like, we'd go
mountain biking a whole bunch, or we'd do like these outings where having a kid doesn't really work, and so we just don't do
those things anymore. And so that's a big part of it as well. I've also found, too,
what I found interesting. Not too long after they
started having kids and if the kids weren't around, and we like we went out to dinner and they got a sitter
or something like that, they spent a lot of time complaining about
parenting and their kids. (Mark wheezing) At first I was like, "Okay,
you guys are really selling this let's-have-kids thing. Like really makes me want to go have kids. Great job, guys." But then what I realized is that that was just their time to vent. That was their time to
just get all the shit that they can't say when their kids are
around off their chest. And it wasn't that they
didn't like being a parent and they didn't love their
children or anything like that, it was that that was their time to vent. And I was like, "Okay, I
can take on that role now." So that changed the dynamic of
our relationship, obviously, that way. But it also led me to like realize that your relationship with
these people is going to evolve, and it's going to evolve in
a way that you can't predict, and there's actually a lot of
area for connection there too. Like, your friends are changing as... They're parents now, and they've changed a lot because of that. And you can kind of
connect with them and like, "Oh, okay, let me understand
how you're changing. Well, how does this change you? How does being responsible
for another human being change you in a way?" And it can lead to a deeper connection, but it's very different. You're not gonna be partying,
and mountain biking, and doing all the crazy stuff
you used to do together. - Yeah, maybe this
jumps ahead a little bit into like some of the practical takeaways, but I think having that patience and openness to that
evolution is important. I've definitely found
that to be true as well. I mean, I've had friends who have kids, I've had friends get
married, get divorced, move to another country, move back. Things do change, they evolve. And the friendship evolves. Sometimes, you go through
seasons with people, and maybe you spend
one decade super close, and then the next decade
you grow apart a little bit, and then you come back together. That's actually an
interesting conversation I've had with my parents, which is they have had friendships that have gone away for decades, and then come back, and
been stronger than ever. And it's one of those things where like you don't necessarily have the whole perspective on everything when you're in the middle of it. Things can change and move at a slow pace. I would say 90% of the time that people ask me this question, they tend to be in their 30s or early 40s, and they tend to reference
how many friends they had in their 20s, and how vibrant their social life was, and how many things that they were doing. And they kind of lament,
like, "What happened to that? Why don't I have that anymore?" And my instinctual reaction or kind of the first
place that my brain goes is that when you're in your 20s, everybody's at the same level. Everybody is young, broke,
completely inexperienced, doesn't know shit about shit,
doesn't know who they are, doesn't know what they like, doesn't know what they want
to do with their lives. And slowly, as you move into adulthood, all of those things
start to get figured out. People start figuring out what they wanna do with their life, they start figuring out
what they're good at, they start figuring out what type of people they
like spending time with and what type of people they
don't like spending time with. Also, money and status
starts to become a factor. Some people become very
successful in their careers. Some people become very unsuccessful. Some people are very materialistic. Some people are not materialistic at all. Some people really crave
novelty and new experiences. Some people crave a lot of stability, and comfort, and repetition. I think this is an underdiscussed
component of this issue, which is that as you get older and you take on this
process of self-discovery and figuring out who you
are, and what you like, and who you are in the world, and succeeding at things in the world, each step of progress
you make along that path narrows the aperture of the friendships that you can potentially
connect with, right? Like it's almost like everybody is starting at the same starting place or a similar starting place, but they all start walking
in different directions, and so your pool of people
that you're gonna relate to, that you're gonna share
values and interests with, that you who are going to
understand your lifestyle and the things you do for fun, who are going to be of
similar financial security or insecurity, those pools shrink and narrow and it becomes more difficult
to find those things. And, I don't know, I think
maybe one of the reasons that this doesn't get discussed is, A, it's a touchy subject. People don't like admitting
that there are groups of people that they used to enjoy hanging out with and they don't anymore for whatever judgments
that they might have. But two, a lot of it is
just practicality, right? Like, if you're really into boating and you spend tens of thousands
of dollars a year on boats, like you don't want to hang
out with a bunch of people who are just gonna like
freeload on your boat. You want to hang out with
other boat people, right? Like, that's just like a simple example of how this takes place. Or I have a friend who literally
spends all of his money on fixing up old cars. Like, it's just his
passion, it's what he does. He goes to racetracks, he like races all these like
retro refitted supercars. I don't know shit about it. But I imagine that not
only does that narrow who he is gonna relate to and gel with, but there's also even within
that sub-niche of interest of cars, and retrofitting
cars, or whatever. He's probably gonna wanna
hang out with other people who spend all their money on cars, and retrofit their cars, and don't bat an eye of like
spending half their savings on like an old Corvette or something. That's not to say that
that's like a solid rule, but I just think it's a
factor that gets overlooked. Like there's a lot of
nostalgia for our late teens and early 20s of how everybody is kind
of on this equal footing of just not knowing, and
being open to everybody, and being interested in
everybody to a certain extent. And also if you went to college, like being in an environment where you are in constant
contact and proximity to all of your peers as well. So it is like a... It's almost from a
friendship point of view or a social connection point of view, university, in many ways, is a utopia. It's like if you were to
like sit down and maximize how to make as many meaningful
friendships as possible, you would probably design
a university dorm system. And for those of us who really, really enjoyed
our college experiences, sometimes it's hard to let that go to like realize that that's not life. Like, that's not coming back anytime soon. So, yeah. Anyway, that's... Maybe it's a little bit
of a depressing point, but it definitely is an issue. - Oh, it's a hugely
complicating factor, I think. And the older I get to the more I'm like, "No, I like these things, and I'm not gonna really deviate from them all that much too." One thing I've noticed,
too, getting older, I used to be a sports fanatic, like when I was in my teens and 20s. I just don't give a shit anymore. Like for making male friendships, I think for some people at least, that's a little tougher because sports are
basically just reality TV for men, basically.
- Yeah, totally. - The way I see it. And I'm just like, "Ah, I don't know." It sucks too because I was the biggest
Kansas City Chiefs fan when I was a kid, and they sucked so fucking bad, and now they're good, and
I just don't give a shit, and I can't connect with anybody on it. Like, yeah, so...
- You're missing out on the Homes era.
- I know, I know. It's terrible. I struggle now with balancing. Like, what I want to do is I want to talk to people
about abstract ideas, and deep concept, and deep concepts, and really like dig
into that kind of stuff. And that's hard to connect with
people on quickly, at least. And so I wish I had some
kind of like just lighter, more mundane things I could
connect with people on. But I don't know. - This is just a quick
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Uncle Mark sent you, they'll take good care of you. Back to the show. All right, let's talk
about what people can do 'cause this is a widespread problem. I mean, we've covered the data
extensively on this show and- - And it's not clear what
they should do, so, yeah. - Yeah, well, and it's... I've talked about how this is something... This is an area I struggle with. I think it's something that I could be a lot
better about in my life. So I threw down a few ideas. These are a few things
that I have found helpful in my own life. First one is be extra aggressive
on hobbies and interests. I think for most of us, our default setting is we
kind of learn to socialize, and we learn friendships when we're young, when everybody has tons of time and everybody's willing to
try a little bit of something. Once you get to your 30s,
40s, 50s, you don't have time. You know what you like, you don't wanna... You've tried most of the things that you're interested in trying. So I feel like the game
shifts under our feet and we don't really realize it. And what I've... It's taken me a long time to figure out is that, really, you just
have to go really hard on the things that do interest you and kind of almost be
like fanatical about it. Those are ultimately the people that you're gonna repeatedly see. It's funny now, like
when I meet new people, like one of my first questions
is: Do you like to surf? Because if they say, "No," then I'm like, "Well, there goes like 50% of my
opportunities hang out with you," because I'm probably not
gonna do anything else. If you surf, then, like, I'm pretty much up to
hangout almost whenever. - Nice.
- I think it's finding those two or three things you really like. I've met so many people out
here who are in the pickleball. It's crazy. I'm just gonna convince
myself I like pickleball just so I can have friends. I do think that this is at our age, assuming you're not making friends at work and assuming you're not becoming friends with the parents of your kids' friends. I think this is the hack is just go really hard
in on your interests. And don't do it digitally,
do it face to face. A Facebook group is fine to
join, to like coordinate, but like ultimately, you want to get in person in
front of a bunch of people. I think joining groups pretty liberally, like I used to be really
skeptical of groups of like networking
groups and social groups. I used to be really skeptical
of them when I was younger, and I would like be like,
"Oh, am I gonna waste money?" Now, I just join them. And if I don't like them, I'll go to like one or two events, and if I don't like it, I just quit. Because what I have found is that one out of every five or six is gonna be really good, and you're gonna get a
lot of good connections and friendships from that group. But sometimes, you just gotta
get through the bad ones before you find the good one. So I've been trying to just
say, "Fuck it," and join stuff. - What do you think, though,
like with both of these, like your hobbies and
interests in the groups? I think there's gotta be some sort of... There's gotta be like
another layer to it, too. So it can't be super superficial. Surfing, like to you, sounds like there's like a
kind of a deeper underlying, I don't know, facet of
that that you connect with. That if someone else connects with it too, that's a deeper connection
that you could have with them. But like, I don't know, and maybe it's good to like
go join a kickball league, or ultimate frisbee, or whatever it is. But I also think they're like, "Don't do too shallow on
these things, either." That's maybe... I don't know, that's something I've been
thinking about as well. - Well, I think there's two layers to it. There's Level 1, which is like, "I'm gonna try this thing
and see if I like it," which, I guess for me,
would be pickleball. Like, I've played it once
and I lost horribly and... - And you're a (indistinct).
- Left the court. Yeah, so I don't really
know if I like it or not, but that's something that like I would put that
in my like try-it-out bucket, and see, try it a couple
more times, see if I like it. And then there's like, there's a Level 2, which is like, "Okay, I
know I like this thing and I know I like spending time with people doing this thing, so let me invest more in it because that's probably
where a lot of my friendships are gonna develop." And I think historically,
like golf or bass, again, coming back to the sports thing, I think with guys, it's an activity. You're never gonna get a guy to like just hang out over
martinis for three hours. You invite him golfing,
you invite him surfing, you invite him to play
tennis or pickleball. - I fucking hate golf. Sorry. (Mark and Drew laughing) My friend's golfing, I'm like, "No, I'm not going golfing with you." - Dude, I tried so hard to enjoy golfing. I fucking hate it, too. - I wanna see you golf.
- No, you want to... Okay, here's a crazy story. So when I was doing Will Smith's book, I was hanging out with him. We were in Miami, I think. This was pretty early on. I think I had only been working
with him for a few months, and we're at a dinner, and he like looks over and
he says, "Hey, do you golf? I've got a game going on tomorrow." And I was like, "Eh, I'm not really... Like, I haven't played in a long time." And he was like, "Oh, okay, cool." And then a few minutes later, one of his managers comes
over and sits next to me, and he's like, "You
sure you don't wanna go to this golf game?" I was like, "I don't know
man, like, I'm really bad. I don't really enjoy it." And he was like, "If you golf at all, you probably want to
go to this golf game." And I was like, "Eh, I don't know. Nah, I'll pass. Like, I think I'd just
flown in or something." Anyway, long story short, it turns out he was playing
with Tiger Woods the next day. - Holy shit.
- And... (Mark laughing) And I was imagining like if I had gone... - Oh, yeah, no, that
was a good call, Mark. (Mark and Drew laughing) You would've fucking embarrassed yourself in front of Tiger Woods. - I'm like kicking up like clumps of dirt in Tiger Woods' face.
- Oh, God. - It would've been fucking hysterical. - No.
- But it's funny because that same manager
told me, he was like... 'cause it's so hard to get
FaceTime with Will, he was like, "If you wanna get FaceTime,
you should pick up golf." And actually, I went through
a period where I'm like, "Okay, some of the most successful and interesting people I know love golf, so let me try this. Let me like put some time into it." And I went golfing maybe
four or five times, and I hated every single second of it. I hated every swing, I hated every missed
putt and fuck that sport. - It's really no fun when
you don't drink, too. Like, that's what I found. It's like bowling, it's not
fun if you're not drinking. - Even when I drink,
I hated it, so anyway. So yeah, I think there's two
levels to the activity thing, but I think it's just like you
need to be aggressive on it, and I think you need to really pursue it. You can't just kind of like
show up to the pickleball court and expect to make friends, like pick a group, go
regularly, participate, sign up for things, et cetera, et cetera. - Yeah, be patient 'cause it does take a long
time in those settings. - Which that's another good point is I think people will go to
a group or go to an activity. Like, they'll run into the same
person three or four times, and then kind of be like, "Well, I'm still not
friends with them yet." I really think to actually
be friends with somebody, most of the time, you probably need to be exposed
like a dozen times at least. Every once in a while, you'll meet somebody and you
just hit it off immediately, and you're kind of instant friends. But in my experience, in most cases, you really need to run into
people many, many times and slowly kind of build up to it. And then the last thing
I have here is follow up, which I'm terrible at, but text people, check in on them, follow up with them, ask them. So here's what I do, and this is wrong. This is what everybody should not do, is like I'll text somebody, I'll be like, "Hey, man, I'm
doing this thing this weekend. If you're around, it'd
be cool to hang out." I'll get a reply, they're like, "Oh, sorry dude, I'm traveling. I'm playing golf with
Tiger Woods in Florida." And I'm like, "Oh, okay." Like, what happens what I
do, which is the wrong thing, is I go another month being like, "Damn, I wish I could have
hung out with so-and-so. That sucks." What I should do is the next week, I should text the same person and be like, "Hey man, how was golf with Tiger Woods? Oh, I bet that was sick." And then think of
something else to suggest, which I don't do that 'cause I don't know, I'm lazy or something. - Going back to your point
too, though, about... Like you were saying, your parents told you that
they would go decades sometimes without seeing people and
then reconnect with them. I've actually had that
happen already with me, too. There's a couple of people, like from my childhood who
I was good friends with, who I've reconnected with
in the last several years just because I reached back out. So my follow-up game was
weak for a few decades, and then I got... I got back to it and it's
great, we've reconnected. We've been able to share our
life stories with each other and what we've done since then, and we have a new friendship that's completely different, obviously, from when we were in
preschool or whatever. But yeah, it's the follow up is it can happen over decades, too. - I think the multi-decade follow up can work well with family as well. - Yeah. Yes.
- I've had a couple cousins that went 20 years not talking to, and then we reconnected in our 30s, and turns out we have a ton in common, including most of our families, so... - I'm getting to be really good friends with some of my uncles now
too, which I really like. - Oh, that's cool.
- As you get older. Yeah. I really like that. - What did you have for this one? What should people do? You always talk about how you feel like your social life's in a good spot. So what is the Drew Birnie
formula for friendship? - Well, first of all, you have to be as cool and
awesome as me, so I'm sorry. (Mark laughing) If you're just not. No, that's-
- Give up, people. Just give up right now. It's over. (Mark laughing) - I think, I mean, I
have the luxury, I think, where I don't have kids and I don't have like
significant relationships that I have to pour a lot of time into. So there's that. And so I have the luxury of leading with a lot of generosity with my time and just with listening to
people and stuff like that. And I think that's a
big one for me anyway. My friends have commented on that before that, like, I tend to lead with, "Here, I'll help you with something." At the end of the day, the way I see it, I'm like, "What else
is there to do in life but help other people out?" Like, just lead with that, and importantly not
expecting anything in return. Like, you're not doing this as... This isn't a tactic, right? Like, it's it's not a
way to manipulate people into liking you or anything like that, but just like, "Here, you
need help with something? I can help you with that." And I think that goes a long ways. I think people remember those things. This one time, this one
example that sticks out to me, and it's just a real pedestrian example, but I had a friend call me up one night, it was like on a Friday or
Saturday night, and she was sick. She and another one of our friends, they lived in the same building, the same apartment building, and they both got sick like pretty badly, and they needed some cough
medicine or something like that, and they didn't wanna leave their houses. And I was like, "Yeah, sure
I can do that, no problem." And it was like a Friday
or Saturday night, still, but I was like, whatever, that's gonna take me
half an hour at the most. Dropped it off, just left
it in front of their doors, and left. Couple weeks later,
both of them were like, "You were like the third
or fourth person I called, and everybody else said, 'No,' 'cause they were doing something else or just didn't want to, and you actually showed up and did that." And I'm like, "Who the fuck says, 'No,' to their sick friend?" But like, you just bring
them some medicine. But I guess if you just lead
with that kind of mentality, I think that goes a long way
with people, I don't know. - That is true. I mean, I think about the
friends that have stuck around. I mean, this is the
other interesting thing is that I've consistently
found throughout my life that it is hard to predict
which friendships stick and which ones don't.
- [Drew] Totally. - But I definitely, when I
look at the ones that stuck, a lot of them have been very
generous to me over the years. - I do have a question for you. What is a friend to you? What makes a friend?
- Hmm. - Especially in adults
because, like, kids, I think we have an idea of what that is, and it's probably a little simpler, or maybe not, I don't know. What makes a friend to you? - It's an interesting question. I wrote an article years ago called "The Levels of Friendship." And I would say 'cause I really see it as
like they're kind of layers, and they're not... They build on top of one another, right? Like, I would say the lowest layer, the most shallow or superficial
is just an acquaintance, somebody you bump into either at work, or church, or whatever you do. I'd say the second layer is somebody who you like have
some really shared interest in and that you just
genuinely enjoy talking to or being around. It can be something as simple
as like a drinking buddy, or a surfing buddy, or a golfing buddy. But it's like somebody where you're like, "Oh, yeah, I like that guy." Like, you can go spend
a few hours with him and enjoy your time. I would say the third level is when it starts to
get a little bit deeper and more intimate, there's genuinely a little
bit of emotional attachment to each other. Like, you actually care if something good or bad
happens to them, like deeply. Like, if their mother dies or something, like you are genuinely upset for them. I think that usually comes along with understanding a little
bit more about their lives, their history, their personality. You probably need to have
been friends with them for at least a couple years,
at least for me, I don't know. Like sometimes, I watch my wife, and she seems to become like
best friends with somebody in like two weeks. And I'm like, "What is that? (Mark laughing) How does that happen?" But it's usually her with
other Brazilian women, so I'm like... I think they're just like playing a completely different game
than I'm playing, for sure. But yeah, I think that third level is like a real kind of
emotional attachment. And then I would say
there's even a fourth level, which is rarely gotten to, but it's somebody who you
have so much history with and have known for so long that it's almost like honorary family. Like, there are a few
people that I grew up with that I don't talk to frequently, but when I go home and I see
them, it feels kind of like... It's a very similar feeling
as like visiting my brother. I can like not talk to
my brother for a year, and then I go visit him, and it's like, "Oh,
yeah, it's my brother." I have a few childhood friends that have kind of are at that level, which is interesting because I think when
you get to that level, you don't necessarily need
the shared interests anymore. Like one of those friends, he and I have completely
different lives and interests now. We have like almost nothing in common, but there's still that feeling or like that sense of brotherhood, I guess you would call it,
for lack of a better term. - Yeah, I think what
really fits in with that, I kind of came up with this, or I've kind of been toying
with this for a while now, and I think friends, they... Like real friends, when you get to that level
that those upper levels that you were talking about, they hold contradictions, your contradictions maybe even too, in some sort of balance for you. It's like they'll call
you on your bullshit and they'll hold you accountable, but they'll also be there for
you when you royally fuck up when nobody else around
you wants to be around you. Like that kind of thing. Or the one I thought of recently too was that they expect the most of you, but they don't expect anything from you. There's this weird, like they can hold these contradictions and all of your flaws
and everything like that, they're way more forgiving. They know your flaws probably
better than you do, even. And yet they're more forgiving of them. There's this weird kind of like place where you get with a select
few friends that, I think... It's what you're talking about,
it's beyond shared interest. It's beyond all of that kind of stuff. - I would call it unconditionality,
which is really... I would say it approaches a form of love, which is kind of like the
honorary family member, right? Like, you reach a point
with very few people where you can actually not like them, but still feel a lot
of affection for them. Whereas, like, if you kind of the earlier
stages of friendship, if I start not liking my
golf buddy or my surf buddy, I'm gonna stop surfing
with him, it's that simple. I'm just gonna stop
responding to his text. Whereas there are a handful
of people in my life that even if I think they're annoying or even if I think they're
doing something really dumb or self-destructing in some way, like it doesn't really
change how I feel about them. The same way as if like a
family member is annoying or self-destructive in some way, it doesn't change my affection for them. So it is almost like a platonic love, which the Greeks argued was actually the highest form of love. I don't remember if it was Plato
or Aristotle who said that, "The love of two friends
is actually the highest, the most pure form of love because it's not tainted with baggage that we get with our family
members and romantic partners." - Definitely, and people, when you ask them how
important friendship is to a fulfilling life, people say it's very, very important. Like twice as many people will say that that's more
important than marriage, than kids, than your job. It's friends.
- Absolutely. I mean, and the mental health
data bears that out as well. Like, there are millions
of people in this world who are single and perfectly happy, living very happy, healthy lives. There is almost nobody in this world who has zero friendships
and is happy and healthy. It is more fundamental to
our psychology, I think, romantic partners or marriage partners. Yet, I think if you look
at people's behavior, most people tend to sacrifice friendships for their romantic partnerships or their pursuit of some
sort of partnership. So I do think people have it backwards. I think they tend to
underestimate friendship and overestimate romance. But-
- Agreed. - That gets into another episode. Any final words of wisdom, Drew Birnie, so that the rest of us
can be as cool as you and be invited to
children's birthday parties? (Drew laughing) (Mark laughing) - I'll leave you with the wisdom
of Old Man Birnie, my dad. He said, "If you want
a friend, be a friend." - Doesn't get any simpler
or profound than that. All right, everybody. Be a friend to the podcast. - Please. - Follow and review the show. Drew and I are hoping to move
the two episodes a week soon so you will get more of
us in your ear holes. But following and reviewing the show is the best thing you
can do to support us, helps us get better guests, it helps us with the algorithms, it just makes our lives much
easier and makes us feel loved. Which ultimately, aren't we all just trying
to feel loved, Drew? - We are, we are. - I'll leave you with that. (Mark laughing) - Thank you, friends. - I'll leave you with
that, fellow listener. Until next week. See you, guys. (upbeat music)
