Why is this the right time to invest in Hybrid Funds?

i've always maintained that keeping a diversified portfolio with investments spread across varying asset classes and securities is sacrosanct diversification ensures that your portfolios risk do not get concentrated because of lopsided asset allocation now decoding the right balance between risk and reward can be a game changer in your investment journey and maintaining that balance is a constant process now both these variables undergo changes at different stages of life and are closely interlinked with such circumstances including your income and your goals however finding the right diversification formula can seem like a complicated puzzle it is common for investors especially those new to the game to either over diversify their portfolio or give too much weightage to their preferred asset classes now this is where hybrid funds can plug the gap these are a category of mutual funds that have a debt component and an equity component in a specific ratio now these funds provide diversification and can act as a cushion against risks posed by asset concentration with the investment being spread across two or more asset classes now if you're struggling to find that elusive proportion between asset classes of varying risk levels hybrid funds can be the right fit for you i'm your host gotham srinivasan and today in this special presentation from mint we'll take a deep dive into the gamut of hybrid funds and hear from the experts on how their addition to your portfolio can be advantageous joining me on the panel are swarup director and ceo of mirai asset investment managers india private limited yasir varavala director of abacus corporation and arun kumar head of research at funds india gentlemen great to have you on board to help us all understand more about the world of hybrid funds let's start by looking at the charts for the market swarup swaroop it's been quite an eventful journey from the march lows of 2020 of sub 26 000 to over 60 000 in closing hit a few days ago for the sensex and of course over doubling of fortunes for the nifty as well during that period now not every investor might have participated in the hybrid funds journey during this time what would they have missed out on during this period actually the hybrid funds are a very interesting bunch of funds where you know it's a classification of six different funds and they stand very good on the merit of their fund specifically on on the way they are managed on both equity and debt and sometimes they are multi-asset invariably in the past we've seen that the merit of the allocation of the portfolio is not looked at and that is reflected on the flows that has seen and especially in buoyant markets like this one works completely to the buoyant asset class which is equity so sometimes in in buoyant times like this the merit of these products gets missed a bit but what i really appreciate about the hybrid funds across the various types of hybrid funds that they are very solid in structure and something which we'd like to discuss today because they range from the equity savings which is low in equity to the aggressive hybrid which is high in equity and and it caters to every type of investor and and that's that's something which has to be kept in mind and the whole objective of investing is to marrying your investment objective with the funds objective and in the hybrid category there is a fund for every investor all right a flavor for every investor a product for every investor will expand on that and understand a what are the categories and what are the profiles of investors they are suited to but dialing back to the conversation we are having asset your response where does risk-taking appetite or lack of importance given to asset allocation feature in this context of not taking the hybrid funds route during the time markets are soaring yeah gotham first of all thanks for having me here and uh you know particularly on this point uh regarding the lows of march 2020 reaching up to say the recent past or let's say yesterday uh definitely i think universe investors have missed out this particular space and if you want to you know think about what was the reason was it lack of appetite risk appetite or lack of asset allocation i think it would be a mix of both now if you go back to march 20 we all know that you know the pandemic was before us shaking all of us we didn't know what was coming forth lockdowns people losing jobs sad stories you know and i would say it was it was a very depressing kind of situation not the whole thing so i think the first reaction of most of the investors was to de-risk or risk errors and i think many of them decided to either switch out totally some switch to certain funds some switch to uh i mean liquid or they just went down so what so i think that initial phase was a lot to do with the risk-taking epidemic like like you have just did and you know there were very few who really you know had seen such cycles before and decided to hang on and say things could be normal but you know we have even heard of investors who have been through cycles and yet they decided to move out of the markets so ideally what should have happened is that probably they should have not moved out entirely but maybe dearest a bit by coming into one of these six six uh categories that six schemes that you have within this category so so i think that was the first initial part of the whole pandemic when it started and then when you and yes uh you know to add to all of that even the experts didn't know what was happening and you know there were a lot of zoom calls and a lot of media coverage where people were saying you know you need to be cautious and over a period of time and then you came across a phase where markets were doing something which which uh one did not want to believe or one couldn't comprehend outside okay why is this happening i mean today questions are raised why is the market at a level when the economy is somewhere else so then and what about the lack of priority with regards to asset allocation how much was that our driver yes i think in the next phase when markets started doing well and you know people started realizing that you know it's better to be art at least participating in the market then i think uh this uh asset allocation played a part or lack of asset allocation really played a part and you know many investors and probably new investors also flock to the pure equity scheme like swarup was mentioning because obviously the returns were far higher category was probably missed out by by everybody now if you see i was just trying to do some data crunching and the aggressive hybrid category had an au for about one lakh cross in march until obviously one like 40 000 crores so you know there is no real addition in fact i would believe there's a net outflow because the markets have done better than that even considering that it has only 65 or 70 percent equity so surely people have missed this whole piece of the hybrid space you know either they flock with the probably the fear of missing out or whatever it is and looking at past returns and short-term returns and they all flock to the equity category when they've re-entered or the new investors who have entered the markets for the first time so i suppose it's it's a mix of both actually all right well what's past is past let's look toward the future and understand the use cases where hybrid funds fit in a portfolio there are six categories within the hybrid fund segment as per the sebi classification now all of them offer a rather differentiated investment proposition from aggressive conservative and balanced to balanced advantage multi-asset and arbitrage so how should investors decide which is the right type of hybrid fund product for them in the context of the mix of debt and equity linked instruments within them thanks uh about them for inviting us to the show so uh broadly if you really look at the category obviously as you said there are six different subcategories within the common hybrid tag so the simplest one is the arbitrage fund category now it is classified under arbit under the hybrid bucket because there's a mix of arbitrage and debt funds but from a very practical point of view most investors look at it as a as a debt kind of a category because if you really look at the the six month or one year kind of a time frame for this category more or less the returns kind of are very close to liquid funds where the volatility is a little higher on the on the one month or a weekly basis but over a six month one year period uh these funds give you returns more or less similar to liquid funds so more or less it's it's considered to be like a very similar to that the reason why people prefer this is because of the taxation advantage because after a year this category is tax that gets the equity taxation so for people with maybe one one and a half years and at the highest tax bracket uh this sometimes makes a lot of sense because given the the taxation differential between a debt fund within those time span of one to one and after so that's how the we would look at the arbitrage category fairly simple category uh you have a one to one and a half year time frame you want the taxation advantage and you want a liquid plus or minus half a percent kind of a return profile so that's probably at the the bottom end in terms of risk profile and then the other categories are where you really get the proper mix of debt and equity and obviously there's the mighty asset category where you get the third asset class in terms of world but pretty much all the other categories you you normally tend to see a mix of equity and debt and generally the higher the equity the higher is the return potential but at the same time you also get higher intermittent declines for that particular segment and hence the the broad concept of the hybrid category is that there's one asset class which gives me longer term returns but is volatile there is the other debt asset class which gives me a lower returns over long run relatively inflation plus kind of a return but but is far more stable so however i combine i i get to do different solutions so if you start with the bottom most i think would be the conservative hybrid category where you have close to around let's say 20 25 is the range at which most mutual funds have their equity exposure so it's fairly a good starting point for somebody uh trying to move up the ladder from let's say fds because you're getting some bit of equity exposure but it's not too high that the volatility will kind of become too much of a surprise for you and then if you want to slightly increase your risk profile and you want to go slightly up then you go to the equity savings category where you generally the industry runs at around 30 to 40 percent in equity allocation so this is slightly a slight higher risk than the conservator and then you have the aggressive hybrid which is close to around uh roughly maintained around 70 percent equity so this is for people with slightly longer time frames they understand equity but they don't want to go all in they just want to try it out try out equity at 70 and then you have an interesting category called balance advantage fund where essentially they say that i'll i'll manage your equity allocation in different ranges so again uh different mutual funds have different ranges roughly it's between 00 to 100 so based on some valuation parameter or momentum so every fund house has its own uh model but this is again uh this is probably in between equity savings and uh uh an aggressive hybrid fund so net you can assume this fund to sometimes play like a an equity savings sometimes become like an aggressive hybrid it's a mix of uh all these three categories that we are talking about the last category would be the multi uh asset allocation category it's a it's not a generic category because each and every fund house has a different variation of how they are interpreting this so very difficult to paint uh the entire category with the same press so we'll have to look at each and every fund in terms of what is their strategy and how they but i think the other five categories are fairly simple and we have to be a little more cognizant that the last category alone has its own nuances in terms of each and every one so that's how we would broadly uh see this bucket of hybrid funds all right that's quite a comprehensive explanation and considering uh yeah you touched upon this considering the galaxy of options on offer does it surprise you that folks missed out on the hybrid fund story you know i'd like to understand from you from your perspective the use cases where hybrid funds fit in a portfolio from here on let's assume that well people have come to their senses and they want to approach hybrid funds as an option where do they go from here so you know so as the room pointed out you have a total letter in front of you you know you choose what you want and obviously you choose keeping in mind your risk appetite your your time that you can the time horizon that you can give your investments to remain invested another important factor would be the cash flow requirements i would sense you know other than the risk appetite and the investment investment horizon a lot of investors need regular cash flows coming to them and if you see these investors some of them who have migrated from the fixed deposit category so to say you know who are getting the quarterly interest etc and you you migrate them slowly into these conservative and et cetera you move on the ladder they yet require the cash flows coming to them so depending upon the amount of cash flow they required you know relative to the amount they've invested so you know if you've invested 100 and you say i need 10 every year now that's that's a little tough right you're probably eating out of your capital but uh so relative to that depending upon the investor's need for cash flow i think all that would then decide which particular fund he would fit into which particular sub category are so to say you would fit all right the cash flow use case for determining the product that you would choose when it comes to hybrid funds valid point there are coming to you and expanding a bit more on the tax implications which you support spoke about you know we hear investors or advisors talking about deciding asset allocation on their own while it has its merits is there any tax implications one needs to watch out for and how does hybrid fund make investments uh tax efficient yeah so uh so broadly if you if you really look at it there are two choices right one is all these hybrids are net net uh the fund house trying to bring together different allocations you the obvious choice is that you can also replicate it on your own and and obviously that gives you a lot of choices in terms of what all equity funds can i participate in what all dead funds can i participate in well this works great the the only uh thing that we'll also have to realize is that all these both these asset classes do not perform equally well right at some point in time equities are disproportionately giving you higher returns and when there is a fall equities might disproportionately do uh relatively lower compared to that one so what happens is that while you start with let's say a 70 equity and a 30 debt allocation you will find that as uh equity markets go up and down your allocation ranges don't stay static so sometimes you might end up at 80 while you started with 70. so this requires a simple act called rebalancing which is nothing but when when my allocation from 70 becomes 80 normally you you keep a band let's say plus or minus 5 because otherwise there's a tax implications let's say it goes to 71 and then i again want to cut it back then i have to sell some bit of equity it might be under the the one year exit load period or it might incur based on on on the timing of when you bought the fund and when this happens so usually what people generally do is they they give a plus or minus five percent bank but if it goes over and above beyond that you don't want to let it run because at some point in time it might what started off with 70 might end up end up at 80 85 90 if left unaddressed so what we would what generally is being done is that you try something called rebalancing where you reduce the equity allocation back to your 70 and it can be the other way when markets fall sharply instead of 70 you might be at 55 so then again you get it back to 70. so both these will require you either to sell equity buy debt or sell debt and and buy equity now there's a taxation angle to it especially if you're selling that because there's a three-year taxation period below which you get only the short-term capital gains and so there is always an inherent tendency to delay this decision because you are like let the taxation be and by then you you realize that the markets have already started so what happens is that by ideally it is it is better to do it without thinking too much on this but these taxes are a little bit of a add a lot of friction and sometimes people delay these decisions so hybrid solves for this when net net you don't incur these taxation because it's done at the fund host level as an investor you don't need to worry about the time as long as you don't sell the fund your and whatever allocation you you've chosen based on the hybrid spectrum that you've chosen hybrid category that you've chosen you will be able to maintain the same allocation and it's more like a fillet shuttered kind of a product and as long as you spread it out across let's say three or four different fund houses uh and and and you don't want to be involved in this uh rebalancing process this works fine so i think this is the major uh taxation advantage for a complete affiliate forget it and let it run kind of an advisor kind of an investor the other small nuance is that you also have to remember that for certain categories let's say like a conservative hybrid there is a small equity portion and and the whole category might be looked at as a debt a taxation so that your 25 percent or whatever 20 25 percent might also be taxed as a debt company so that might be a disadvantage but the same thing flips on the other side where for an aggressive hybrid category the 25 30 debt you have will get the equity so there are nuances to it but broadly the rebalancing part is taken care without the taxation issue and it's more or less automated by the hybrid fund and second leg is there are some nuances which you may also have to uh it may or may not be an advantage depending on which category that you are choosing so that's the broad way in which we would like to look at this sure that's the tax efficiency overview for different categories of hybrid funds but to boil it down to a single point on uh you know what do new investors do uh yeah sir i will come to you for this do you think hybrid funds are a good fit for new investors and if so why is that yeah i think uh surely they are like you know we just spoke a lot of new investors are the ones who are migrating you know from uh fixed income or let's say fixed deposits more so more conservative products and first time they are really getting into something which is market linked you know be the equity side or even the death side and that could create some kind of shock for anybody so yeah you know that there are two kinds of uh new investors in my opinion one is those who are sitting on the fence and waiting waiting and waiting you know so and probably they miss the bus so definitely this is a good entry point you know you start and then as and when you get comfortable you start moving up the ladder of the risk you start earning returns which are far better post tax and real returns you know you beat inflation also so so that's one side so for them i think it's fantastic uh on the other side i think probably what we've seen in the last few months there are a lot of new investment you know scores of new folios being added new unique uh investors coming into the thing and you realize that most of them are straight into those funds which have given near-term past past returns near terminal and obviously those would be the pure equity funds and if if at all they go into a bad cycle they'll probably never come back and you know their their whole scheme of things where they decided to save invest build wealth wealth creation it would just just stop and uh so that would be a disaster i think so definitely for new investors i think this on either side you know whether you're too aggressive or you are too conservative this is a good start and then you you build yourself up as and when you experience it if you have a good experience you move up the ladder if you don't you stick to it because anywhere you're getting you're supposed to get better returns than the bank fixed deposits and that's how it's all you know made so i would uh say that it would give a very smooth entry and a smooth initial passage in the investing in in the funds or in the market link instruments rather than having a roller coaster ride and getting him out of this space forever absolutely kind of like training wheels on a cycle it allows you that stability to be more confident in the market and figure out your investment goals and then deploy it smartly deploy your resources smartly and considering uh hybrid funds offer a galaxy of options uh for differentiated profile of investors your right yes sir it offers them the option that they want to take which that which they feel fits their investment profile i don't know any thoughts to add to this on you know hybrid funds as a fit for new investors yeah i i tend to agree with you that more or less this is a very good entry product where like you just want to try out market for a lot of them are fd investors and it's a fairly simple instrument where very stable and you know what to expect from that but this is volatility as a as a concept is a little uh difficult to intuitively get it so i think uh this whole gamut of hybrid funds give you the perfect stepping stone so you you try it out with probably the equity savings or the conservative hybrid and then once you get comfortable with how it works maybe you go up to the balanced uh advantage category or or maybe the aggressive hybrid then once you get a fair sense of how this whole thing works and probably you see the whole cycle in terms of thankfully you've seen the entire cycle in the last two years you've had a 40 fall you've had a hundred hundred and fifty percent kind of like so somebody looks through this and then gets it and then they're also comfortable so i think it's a fairly a good way to start it off and then they can take a call maybe after five to seven years they'll get a fair sense of how this works and then they can take a call saying hey does this work or or should i should i do it on my own and then build it but i think this is a fairly good category to start and then outsource the entire intake to the fund managers and then uh and then like you know relax and then get done with life and yeah some people like complexity but but i'm just saying that take the first five seven years outsource it and then decide whether it's worth spending your time leave it to the experts and then become the expert let me come to uh the expert here sarupa the value of hybrid funds for new investors your point of view and that and also you know what kind of time horizon long medium or short is best suited for hybrid funds if you could give us the highlights on both of those questions i think both arun and yesterday have said the right things i just wanted to add the mutual fund side to it you know when you come from a fixed income kind of an investment background to a mutual fund mutual fund is a pass-through vehicle and it passes back the market returns to the investors and then markets are volatile because that's how markets are any market and then it's a very good entry point for for investors because one has to get accustomed to the volatility and then over the years understand them in volatility lies the opportunity right that is a great uh you know position for the hybrids funds to come in for an investor and make the investor not only used to both the asset classes that is the debt and equity but also you know acclimatize yourself to the volatility of the capital markets and over a period of time like aaron said you know then graduate to becoming a better investor so it's the first point for new investors it's a great first point because it gives you this gamut of choice whether you want to be low in equity or high in equity and then graduate and the number two thing is you know if you look at it from a taxation perspective it's very interesting to look at it this way because uh in india we say that long term is debt and short-term inequity is when you look at it from a taxation perspective you're probably the only country where equity long-term capital gains start at one year and debt starts for three years for whatever reason so i would put the starting point for investments because investment should be looked at post tax to be at three years and and then along with your investment horizon match the fund investment horizon but to start with it should be three years onwards all right arun yes there any other things that investors should consider before choosing a hybrid fund any anything in your view we might have missed out on any anything to add but not really i think we've all covered the major part of it and most of it will be repetition now all right uh so we spoke about new investors let's look at retired investors as well so you know what's your take on swp from aggressive hybrid funds is it say beneficial for retired investors what would you have to say i'm very happy gotham that you are asking this question because the bane of aggressive hybrid funds has been this segment you know earlier it was sold as a monthly income solution to a lot of investors that's probably why this category has gone out of favor due to no fault of the underlying fund itself but i have failed to understand why the swp and route has not been explored more it is a far more tax efficient more number one number two when you are looking at post retirement as an investor you would want a certain amount to come back to you in a fixed note depending on your cash flows while when you take the monthly income route or the dividend route the then you are at the mercy of the dividend which the fund sort of uh declares and that is never consistent so if you took the swp route through a calculated manner you would be in control of the influence that you would have or you would want you can match that so i would be a big big proponent of the swp route in in the hybrid route the only caveat being first let the fund appreciate a bit and then start the rsa swp i think arun and i said why would be better people as to telling you how long that period will be but keep in mind that if you start your sip on your oswp on the first day then you would be taking over a part of your own capital so let the fund grow to a level and then start your swp in that way you can plan your swp is far better absolutely give time for the sapling to grow into a tree and what about static asset allocation versus dynamic asset allocations for as we wrap up this conversation i want to understand your view and you know why do you believe static asset allocation is better than dynamic asset allocation let's get the highlights from you first i think two things one is when you invest in any asset class you would like to get the high of that as a class or the growth of that as a class that you get if you remain invested in that as a class and that is what as it statical asset allocation brings it brings to the element that it will remain invested in that asset class when you look at a dynamic asset class it invariably tries to time the peak of the asset class and that is very difficult to time all of us know that it is impossible to time the market but yes the lure of the ability to time it is always very romantic you know it invariably flatters to deceive look at what's happened in the last one year and it's it's impossible to time the market and as you get into the zone when the market tries to reach the new peaks invariably it is impossible to know what is the next peak so the investor who stayed invested over a period of time has got the true value of the asset class so i am a big proponent of static allocation over dynamic asset allocation the other part is every asset class has its own journey the debt has its own journey and equity has its own journey you can fluctuate your asset allocation as per your own risk profile but then you have to stay invested in both the asset assets to gain the best of both worlds what the aggressive hybrid does is just that it it has a definite journey for both equity and debt while in a dynamic asset allocation the equity is your number one asset class and the debt sort of follows the action of the equity right while another powerful thing which arun pointed out is the rebalance part of the portfolio the power which a rebalance part brings to your wealth creation is is pretty phenomenal because the rebalance part aims at your asset allocation grid suppose we are talking about 7525 as your asset allocation grade and your assets grow to 80 percent in equity as our room was mentioned it brings it back to 75 percent which is a doable unlike the dynamics asset location which aims at getting the peak of the market which is invariably not possible so from from ascertaining what is a doable what can be a you know more effective way and gaining the top of an asset as a class this static allocation invariably gives you the best of all words and that is why the static allocated funds over a period of time get the best of the asset class rather than somebody who tries to time that asset class so rupe if you could expand on the point that you mentioned on static asset allocation being better than dynamic asset allocation if you could provide more details to our viewers that would help them come to a better decision so i'll take it i'll let you take it over from here yeah thank you gotham you know it's been a very interesting debate static versus dynamic asset allocation like i explained you know it's always very romantic to the to believe in the thought that tomorrow is the market will tank and i know today i can exit and there are you know it's easier said than done when you look at the dynamic asset allocation funds and this is not for or against both i'm just trying to put both the perspectives in front of the investor and and what it does it tries to find the peaks of the market be it from a valuation perspective be it from a level perspective and then you know alongside that you know time the equity allocation in it does try to you know peak its equity allocation along with the peak of the market but over a period of time if you've seen the allocation of the industry it has been very difficult to sort of time it because when you look at it from a pe perspective and and you look at the market and you term say suppose just for example say 30x of the market is expensive 24 of the time the market has traded between above and 30p now when you look at 25 to 30 p the market has stated 64 of the time in that range and that's supposedly the most difficult time to sort of time the market so how do you act in this period the market the rest 10 has been between 20 to 25. so when you look at the range between 20 and say 30 35 p this is where in the market so to ascertain and pinpoint a time when it is at peak is is nearly impossible the other point is the last one here and is a very classical example because a lot has happened in last year and a bulk of the equity wealth creation has come in the last one now when you look at it from a data perspective if you were invested in the last in the entire full all the days of the year you would have been saying 46 up in your portfolio now if you missed out just 10 days of that and it's very easy to miss out 10 days your returns would plummet to 22 if you missed out just 20 days it would give you seven and a half percent return approximately now we start just 30 days of that you would go into a negative return journey and if you missed out 40 days you're see in the same period your returns would be minus 16.4 see this is how difficult it is to time the market that's point number one if you look at a static versus a dynamic acid allocation this is just industry data the blue part being the the market the deep blue shaded part and that is how the market has risen up the orange part is how the static allocation has remained invested in equity and the dynamic asset allocation as the market start going up have only reduced exposure hence the difference in returns please understand by structure if somebody is coming into a dynamic asset allocation he or she should be ready to the fact that it will invariably not catch the peak of the market if you are a downside protection person that is the fun to be but if you are invested in equity and invariably people invest in equity to cap the upside of the market it is a static allocation which catches the upside of the market some people might say that you know it comes at a certain volatility when you look at the returns between the two in in a one-year horizon and i don't recommend a one-year horizon as the right sort of benchmark uh of course there is a gap in return between the static the orange being the static and and the blue winning the dynamic but when you look at it from a 10-year horizon the static allocation has given a two percent incremental written over the dynamic estimation and you look at the standard deviation clearly they have come there's very little to sort of uh uh look at between the two and then you come to the bottom part of the data which is on a risk adjusted return clearly when you look at it on a long term horizon on a risk adjusted basis also the fully invested portfolio has has given a justified return to the to the overall investor who stayed invested when you look at the rolling returns that is the hybrid versus dynamic obviously the fund which remains invested sort of starts giving a much better return because the aggressive return again the one-year return might be a little short-sighted but when i look at the three-year return you know the backs matt baff has at or or the dynamic asset allocation has given a better return sometimes on the max return but from a median return uh clearly you know the hybrid returns have been 9.8 versus 9.06 but my really submission comes to the sip investor because when you look at mitigation of risk it is done by the sap investor which invests over a period of time hence catches the upside of the market and invariably catches the the low of the market and that is where is the biggest differentiator the static allocation funds have outperformed the sip returns of the dynamic asset allocation by five percent over five year horizon that is the static allocation has given 16.02 and this is just industry data while the dynamic asset allocation have given 11.27 so a risk mitigated approach which is the sip root has clearly shown that the static allocation has always outperformed the dynamic asset allocation of course the near term returns are far more better than the longer ones but the longer ones are the one which we normally speak of because investment in equities or for a longer horizon that is why from a data perspective and the inability of anybody to time the market the best way is to remain invested on your asset allocation and hence the aggressive acetyl aggressive hybrid which is 75 25 in nature giving the 75 percent its own journey in the market at the same time when markets invariably go down the debt side plays out with its 25 with an effective balancing rebalancing route on a yearly basis on on a return perspective is is a better proposition than the dynamic asset allocation well as the data points are showing the discipline pays off especially since as you say guessing the markets is tricky business which is where the defined allocation that aggressive hybrid funds for instance provide build a use case versus dynamic asset allocation funds which again try and time the market thank you so much for that analysis on that note it's time to wrap up this conversation around hybrid funds and their value in a portfolio i'd like to thank swarup yasir and arun for joining us and sharing their insights on the topic and of course thank you to our viewers for tuning in this is gautam srinivasan signing off [Music] you

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Length: 38min 51sec (2331 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 08 2021