[♪♪♪] [♪♪♪] >> WELCOME BACK TO POWER-PLAY. SINCE BEING SHUT OUT OF AUSTRALIA, THE UK AND THE U.S.s TRILATERAL SECURITY PACT WHEN IT WAS FORMED BACK IN 2021, SPECULATION HAS BEEN RAMPANT THAT CANADA COULD GET AN INVITE FOR THE SECOND PHASE OF THE PACT, BUT JOHN KIRBY WITH THE WHITE HOUSE'S NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL THREW COLD WATER ON THAT PROSPECT THIS WEEKEND ON QUESTION PERIOD. HAVE A LISTEN. >> WE'RE FOCUSED ON MAKING SURE THAT THEY CAN GET NUCLEAR POWERED SUBMARINES. THAT'S WHERE AUCUS IS FOCUSED ON AND THERE REALLY AREN'T DISCUSSIONS RIGHT NOW OR PLANS TO MODIFY THE AUCUS ARRANGEMENT IN THE FUTURE. >> HERE TO REACT IS RETIRED GENERAL TOM LAWSON, A FORMER CHIEF OF DEFENCE STAFF FOR THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES. AND FORMER DEPUTY COMMANDER EVERY NORAD. HI, GENERAL, GOOD TO SEE YOU AS ALWAYS, THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME. >> HI, VASSY, THANKS FOR HAVE ME. >> I REMEMBER SPEAKING TO YOU NOT TOO LONG AGO WHEN THE PROSPECT OF CANADA JOINING ANOTHER PHASE OF AUCUS WAS INITIALLY BEING FLOATED, AND YOU THOUGHT AT THE TIME IT WAS SOMETHING CANADA SHOULD AIM FOR. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE WAY IN WHICH IT'S FRAMED NOW BY THE WHITE HOUSE THAT THOSE DISCUSSIONS AT THIS POINT IN TIME ARE NOT EVEN HAPPENING? >> WELL, I THINK IT'S REALLY INTERESTING. WHEN WE GO BACK ABOUT 20 MONTHS WHEN THEY STOOD AUCUS UP, I THINK THEY WERE ON GOOD, STRONG, SOLID GROUND WHEN THEY SAID THE PRIMARY REASON FOR THIS TRIPARTITE GROUP WAS TO ASSIST SUGGESTION IN THE NUCLEAR SUBMARINES, A BREATH-TAKINGLY EXPENSIVE AND VERY COMPLICATED VENTURE. WHERE THEY STRAYED A LITTLE BIT I THINK WAS IN THEIR INDICATIONS THAT A SECONDARY AIM WAS IN AREAS LIKE CYBER SECURITY, ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, HYPER SONIC, THINKS THAT CANADA AND MAYBE OTHER NATION BUS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CANADA ARE VERY, VERY INTERESTED IN, CUTTING-EDGE DEFENCE ISSUES. SO THAT CAUGHT OUR INTEREST. AND, YOU KNOW, WHILE CANADA HAS ONLY EVER FLIRTED WITH NUCLEAR SUBS AND WON'T BE GETTING THEM, I DON'T THINK, IN THE FUTURE, THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS BEING PART OF. SO COME BACK TO US AND LET US KNOW WHY WE CAN'T BE PART OF THAT. AND ADMIRAL KIRBY IN YOUR INTERVIEW LAST WEEK REALLY SEEMS TO INDICATE THERE IS NO INTEREST AT THIS TIME. >> Vassy: YEAH ANDY SEEMED TO REALLY TRY AND SAY THIS ISN'T A BIG DEFENCE PACT, IT'S A CONSORTIUM AND IT'S VERY FOCUSED ON SUBMARINES. BUT THE TRUTH IS THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF DISCUSSION IN THE LAST NUMBER OF MONTHS ABOUT WHAT THAT NEXT FACE PHASE OF, YOU KNOW, SHARING CUTTING EDGED TECHNOLOGICAL INFORMATION FOR EXAMPLE WOULD LOOK LIKE. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHY THE U.S. WOULD BE KIND OF HEDGING BACKWARDS AND TRYING TO DOWNPLAY THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE PACT? >> WELL, THERE'S -- THERE ARE A COUPLE OF POSSIBLE REASONS. THE FIRST IS THAT TRULY THIS PACT WAS FOCUSED AS HE SAID ON ASSISTING AWES IN MOVING AHEAD WITH NUCLEAR SUBS. AND THAT THE OTHER THINGS THAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT, AT THE TIME, THE THINGS THAT REALLY INTEREST CANADA WERE TRULY SECONDARY AND HE'S TRYING TO WALK THAT BACK. BUT ANOTHER WAY OF LOOKING AT THIS, I THINK, IS A WAY THAT CANADIANS TYPICALLY LOOK AT THINGS, IT'S MY EXPERIENCE WE TEND TO BRING OUT OUR INFERIORITY COMPLEX ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE WHENEVER IT LOOKS LIKE WE'VE BEEN SLIGHTED IS THAT WE ARE BEING CUT OUT FOR SOME REASON FROM THESE THINGS. NOW, THE PROBLEM WITH HAVING A LITTLE BIT OF AN INFERIORITY COMPLEX IN CANADA IS THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO SO, YOU'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ANTI-ED UP ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE. YOU KNOW, NOT ONLY DIPLOMATICALLY, ON A TRADE, BUT IN DEFENCE AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE THREE NATIONS, ALL THREE HAVE SIGNIFICANTLY ANTED UP. AUSTRALIA WILL SPEND $400 BILLION IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS, WE ARE ALREADY AT 2% OF THE GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT, SO IS THE U.K. AND OF COURSE THE U.S. IS AT 3.5%. CANADA'S AT 1.3% AND REGULARLY TAKES A DISCOUNT ON DEFENCE. SO IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO ANTE-UP, THEN I THINK WE SHOULD GO A LITTLE BIT EASY ON THIS SENSE OF SLIGHT. >> WELL, LET ME ASK YOU PRETTY BLUNTLY THEN, GENERAL LAWSON. DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS -- YOU KNOW, THAT THERE EXISTS A POSSIBILITY THAT THE FACT THAT WE DON'T ANTE-UP CONTRACTS TO THE FACT THAT THERE IS NO INVITATION ON THE TABLE AND THERE WASN'T BACK IN 2021? >> I THINK IN THIS CASE, AUCTION STOOD UP WITH THE IDEA OF NUCLEAR SUBS FOR AUSTRALIA. I REALLY DO. WHERE THEY STRAYED A LITTLE BIT, GOT US INTERESTED, BUT I THINK IF WE GO TO YOUR LARGER POINT, WHEN NATIONS THAT WE HAVE LONG CONSIDERED FRIENDS WHO HAVE ALWAYS, WHEN WE HAVE EVER DEPLOYED SHOWN ONLY THE GREATEST RESPECT FOR THE EXCELLENCE OF THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES, DECIDES TO SEEMINGLY CUT US OUT OF THIS THING OR THAT THING, IN THIS CASE, AUCUS, THE QUESTION IS WHY? IS IT BECAUSE OF THE EXCELLENCE OF OUR MEN AND WOMEN IN UNIFORMS IS IN QUESTION? ABSOLUTELY NOT. TIME AND AGAIN, NOT ONLY DO WE SHOW HOW GOOD WE ARE INTERNATIONALLY, WE'RE ASKED TO LEAVE ON INTERNATIONAL VENTURES TIME AND AGAIN. THE FACT IS, HOWEVER, THAT WHEN WE AIM FOR SUCH EXCELLENCE AND SUCH A SMALL MILITARY BUDGET, WE HAVE VERY, VERY SMALL NUMBERS. AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S RECOGNIZED ON THE INTERNATIONAL SCENE, EXCELLENCE BUT VERY SMALL NUMBERS. SO IF THAT'S THE CASE, THAT CANADA IS NOT GOING TO BE ONE OF THE FIRST NATIONS THAT'S GOING TO BE ASKED TO TAKE PART IN REALLY SERIOUS VENTURES LIKE AUCUS WHICH IS AIMED AT CONFRONTING CHINESE AGGRESSION IN THE INDO-PACIFIC. >> YEAH, I THINK THAT LAST POINT'S SUPER IMPORTANT, THE CONTEXT THERE, THIS IS ALL ABOUT COUNTERING THE THREAT CHINESE
