Why God Reveals Himself to Some & Not Others | Tara - NJ | Atheist Experience 21.40

I noted here that you specifically had some kind of response to why God reveals himself to some people and hides himself to others yeah my name is Tara basically it's a little bit complicated but it's related to the problem of evil I want to go into that a little bit basically if we go back to the Garden of Eden know you had a Satan had convinced Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil well and I will let you get through this just for clarity we have no reason to believe that happened and Genesis doesn't say it was Satan it says it was a serpent it's only later revisions that apply that to Satan but sure we'll go with the mythology okay so basically in Genesis 2:16 and 17 God said that the punishment from eating from the tree was was basically death and Satan said you will certainly not die for God knows that in the day that you eat from it your eyes will be open and you will be like God knowing good and bud so basically Satan there was accusing God of withholding something that was good from his creation seems that the circum was the one telling the truth there don't you think because they didn't die that day lookey lookey this is what i'm gonna get into because the bible admit that when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad that so their eyes were opened yeah which affirmed what the serpent said well this this begs the question does this imply that the tree had magical powers and I would say no the tree doesn't have magical powers it was actually symbolic when Adam and Eve decided to eat from the tree they were essentially deciding for themselves so I could I could see the whole story as metaphorical or symbolic or whatever else on the other hand if you think this actually happened then I don't know how you can write off a magical tree when you're talking about a serpent that spoke to Adam and even told them what to do I mean where do you draw the line on I mean is the whole story just did this not happen and it's just a metaphor for a fall from grace or no I so there were two people was there also a talking serpent there the serpent that Satan was using what doesn't matter who was using it there was a talking serpent right so we're already in the realm of magic so what if you're if you're in the realm of magic why do you get to say that it's unreasonable to say that the fruit was magical I'm not saying it's unreasonable to draw that conclusion what I'm saying is from my own personal opinion that is symbolic okay so that's a book symbolic but the the people in the snake weren't symbolic correct and the reason why the name of the tree was involved the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is like I said the tree symbolized Adam and he's decision to decide for their own what was good and evil then rather than relying on I've heard a hundred different interpretations of this story and you know Thomas Paine made a very good point in his age of reason that that God would never use text to convey a message and and I think that this this you're sort of playing into his argument that that yeah you can interpret this or interpret that or spin it this way and spin it that way and and try to try to get to whatever conclusion you want to reach but but you know the story doesn't stand on its own very clearly because we're having to debate about interpretations right and so it's a failure right whoever wrote it failed at conveying the message they intended to to fail because it's opened it so much interpretation I'm not trying to prove that the story is true and actually this plays a part into it too is that it's not our job as Christians to prove things we're here to plant seeds and it's God's job actually it's your job to give a reason for the faith that you have so it is your job to prove things right exactly so and and the reason why God God doesn't reveal himself to everybody yes actually has has to do with the fact that this whole system the reason why we have all the evil now is because that incident essentially what Satan was doing was calling into question God's sovereignty his justice his right to rule so so what side have to do with whether or not it's a God reveals himself to some people right right does it are there some people that he doesn't reveal himself to yeah so why is God playing favorites does he not love everybody and want everybody to be justified in believing it he's not playing favorites absolutely no no no no no if I have two kids and I want them to pay attention to me and listen to me and do what I say and one of them I never ever interact with and the other one has actually met me that's me playing favorites yes but the situation isn't the same okay the reason the reason is because in order to prove that Satan was wrong and what he was saying basically Satan was calling me the question whether or not God's Way of rulership was correct and this goes back to I don't see what that has okay I still see what that has a with wanky let's say that let's say I'm God and Satan dares to call into question whether or not my way of ruling was correct if I wanted to convince everybody that I existed and that I was real and that I was just the best course of action would be for me to interact with all of them directly because then they'd have first-hand experience exactly so if I was a God and I chose to interact with some people and not interact with others how could I ever condemn the people who I chose to not interact with he does not necessarily condemn everybody that he doesn't interact with and the reason for this whole system right now isn't for God to prove that he's real that he exists ideas power because if Satan had called into question God's power his his existence that would have been easy to prove that's not what Satan called into question so the so the question that God has the answer is whether or not his rulership his direction is the right direction yeah in order in order to do that first he'd have to demonstrate that he actually existed but second of all even if the God of the Bible were to come out and demonstrate to me right now that he was real he'd still have a lot to answer for before I could ever respect him right and he's going to do that the Bible says that they're going to be a father okay you're right the issue though is about whether or not belief is justified and until he does that belief isn't justified and certainly reverence and respect and adherence isn't justified so call me back after he does that okay because until then I don't see how anybody could have good reason to believe the only people that really have good reason to believe are those to whom God reveals himself and how do they how do they know that God's revealed himself because I was a fundamentalist Christian for more than twenty years was studying to be a minister if you'd have asked me at the time if I had experienced the Holy Spirit I would have said yes but I now understand that that wasn't the case most people who are Christians who have faced God hasn't revealed himself to them God reveals themselves to a very very select for ease even in biblical so they're saying that most Christians believe for bad reasons correct okay and how do you know that any Christians believe for good reasons I mean I can't prove that to anyone how could anybody create my purpose isn't here isn't to prove that my purpose is to explain like I said why God well it's the only it's the only point of disagreement we both agree that people believe for bad reasons but you're saying that there are some people who believe for good reasons and I'm asking how you know that I I know that because I believe that you know God has touched my life and and I know that that isn't sufficient for you but it's sufficient for me and and that's why I'm not here trying to prove anything to you could you be wrong yeah I could be wrong cool I don't think I'm wrong I I know you don't think you're wrong so the question then becomes if there's something that I could be wrong about but I'm convinced of it I can usually give the reasons even if they're bad reasons I can usually give the reasons for why I'm convinced and if somebody were to look at those reasons and point out that they were fallacious that they weren't sufficient I would be able to accept that and so when you tell me that you've got good reasons all I was wondering was what are the good reasons I mean it's a matter of the things that have happened in my life my life has has been steered in a very specific direction how do you know that because I'll tell you because I know plenty of people who think that their life has been steered and not just by God but by the fates or the Stars or whatever else and surely some of the people who you and I both would agree don't have good reasons also believe their life is being steered because it has been consistent with in my life that when I deviate from a certain path I'm always brought back on to that path well that's been my experience as well when I start to behave terribly to other people my life tends to get worse does that mean there's a god steering me towards better behavior it's more than you know people treating me bad it's more like I don't know how to describe it I guess I can't really describe it well the question is how do you know that it's God I have faith that it's God okay couldn't you justify any position by saying I have faith yeah which doesn't that mean that faith is not a good reason for believing I I don't think so I think really so if I tell you that I believe that white people are superior to black people and that's a position I take on faith you're telling me that I might have a good reason No okay so faith is not necessarily a good reason not necessarily can be how can it be a good reason if faith can be used to justify a good position a correct position in an incorrect position equally how do you tell the difference hmm so let's say let's say for example instead I said I believe that white people were superior to black people because I rolled the dice and I rolled a six would we agree that that's a bad and unreliable pathway to a true can position yeah yeah so faith is identical to that you know you don't you don't get to say that faith can be a good thing any more than you can say that rolling a six can be a good thing a good way to a pathway to truth you have to show that it's a reliable pathway to truth well faith is more than rolling the dice faces also you know when applied correctly it's based on you know your experiences in life so it's it's strange that you say applied correctly I don't know how you would apply clay faith correctly and from the Christian worldview who faith isn't even something you use it's something that's given to you by God it's not like it's a methodology and how does it change the reliability of faith there are people who are given things by God and then there are people who are convinced so why would give God why would God give a useless gift to people because it serves his purpose his purpose ultimately right now is to prove his point his point being that his way of rulership is the correct way of rulership I don't see him attempting to prove any point how do you know that God's trying to prove a point the way he's attempting to prove it is the only way to prove that God's way is the correct way is by comparing it to all other ways of rulership without God so that's what this whole system is about that's ridiculous I don't I don't have to allow every sort of rulership to be able to know which one is better than others we can say right off the bat without ever performing the experiment that any rulership that cuts off the head of anybody who who is is a part of that system is is demonstrably worse without ever actually having to do it we can think about things and evaluate the consequences and extrapolate from nones to unknowns it's bizarre for you to claim that the all-knowing all-powerful creator of everything has only one way of demonstrating that he's right and that's to let everything up everywhere around so that he can come out winning well you and I can justify that neat and I can see where your comments on with that and I agree with that yeah why is her God stupider than I am that's not true he's not true so so he understands the basics of epistemology and he understands what should be convincing and he understands what's right or wrong but he can't reveal himself and explain it to people in a way that would bring understanding to people if I created a simulation game and my simulations don't understand me am I not a miserable failure actually this is this begs one of the questions that Satan had raised because when he accused god it was holding something from his creation you know and he sort of did initially yes I say he was telling the truth humans are inferior to angels angels are inferior to Jesus Jesus is inferior to gods therefore there is a hierarchy of creation and in order to prove st. and wrong one of the things that God is doing is revelation reveals that there's gonna be 144 thousand that are picked 20 yards okay now you're talking about something that isn't happening that hasn't happened that you have no evidence for you're just plucking numbers out of a book you can't know that that's happening if it hasn't happened right so this is just another exercise in you having confidence that this will happen you're weird where do women an atheist fall on this pecking order what with that where do women and atheists fall on this pecking order there have been people through history women women I I don't see you where your where your oh well just as soon as you establish a pecking order you can put yourself above everybody else I mean according to the Bible men are superior to women right do you buy that I interpret this a little differently than not my people well the man's a head of the household in the same way the crises they have the church when it comes to rights the men are the ones with the rights the women are treated around and become parts of harems and you can sell your your daughter as a slave Paul didn't permit a woman to teach in church I mean that pretty much establishes a pecking order or maybe a pecker always in order there is an order there's you know so accordingly according to the Bible when women would be at least marginally inferior to men right do you buy that we don't buy that just so you know Don okay according to the Bible I say you kill you should be killed are you ok with that no actually I'm a trans woman so no I don't okay well I've gots in my head here I wonder I wonder where trans women fit on that biblical pecking order because I'm pretty sure that from those archaic standpoints about men wearing women's clothes which is by the way I'm talking about what the Bible says not me you're a woman I'm cool with all that I support all of your rights which makes me infinitely superior to the book that you're apologizing for anybody who did a literal reading of the book that you're advocating for would put you even lower then assist women and then of course anybody who's slaves is lower than that I mean this is the thing is we the DA was talking about if you start if you're going this pecking order and you're doing it all without any justification other than well this is my interpretation of the holy book it's it's an interpretation I believe that I have been here to buy by God essentially okay I don't see how anybody yeah I mean I'm glad that no actually I'm not glad I I really don't know what to say because you think that you've been steered a certain direction by God and this is something that you can't demonstrate and I don't even know how you how you came to that conclusion it's not even your advantage how did you determine that it's not you steering you I I guess I can't really say that I have proof for that I mean that that that's where my face comes in and I am like I said at the beginning I I admit to you know a certain amount of hazing yeah that might be irrational but for me it's all about caring whether or not my beliefs are likely to be true and so I can't believe something unless there's not good reasons and as soon as I recognize that faith isn't a good reason then I can no longer use faith to prop up what I believe I actually have to come up with good reasons and when it comes to Christianity when it comes to the Bible when it comes to Islam when it comes to any of the religions not only do I not have any good reason believe they're true I'm not even convinced that they were true they would be good things because they advocate for so many terrible things within the holy books and we know that religiosity doesn't make anyone a better person and I must rather deal with the world here and now and how we interact and get along and what kind of how we're going to make sure that people get equal rights and the people treated fairly under the law and that no religion even if it were actually correct about some supernatural realm or what happens in an afterlife should ever get preferential treatment over any other or air religion yeah I I don't advocate for you know interfering with government and all that in fact I stay away from government because I don't believe that that you know my beliefs should be be dictated so I you know separate myself from politics completely because of that and I don't believe in pushing my religion on other people trying to force other people into my religion but it is my purpose still to you know spread the good news that that's part of you know what I feel I've been commissioned to do and and you know all about spreading the word and it's not about proving anything proof is proof is with God I can't do that well I mean you can give the reasons you can follow up 1st Peter 3:15 and give the justifications whether or not you're successful proving its different but really quickly because I'm gonna move on to some other callers was it that you think is the good news as briefly as you can the kingdom of God you know it's all about proving you know Satan was a liar when he called him to question God's sovereignty his right to rulership so God's answer answer to that ultimately is going to be his kingdom and that's where proof is gonna be available so you can't talk about so the good news is that you're convinced that something better will happen some other time because Satan who told the truth in the myth was actually lying yeah I believe that the good news is right around the corner i I I know you don't accept natural and you were just talking about the natural occurrences like earthquakes and stuff but there's there's a storm brewing you know with Trump and everything I believe that everything is starting to come to a head and and things are going to shift drastically in the near future okay thanks for the I mean no offense but you hear those sort of vague predictions every single year from all sorts of people and so basically you've called in to say you're convinced that they're good news is that something better is coming that you can't demonstrate I mean yeah essentially and for what it's worth whoever picks up on that you know you know god oh god oh I believe latch on to those seeds and do what he needs to to ultimately both my reason why he interferes it all with the system because if he if he interferes too much it's essentially him corrupting the data and it's God's purpose of this experiment not happen again oh that's garbage that's like a parent saying I'm not going to do any parenting because that might corrupt the data the fact is the fact is that a God could demonstrate to every single person on the planet that he clearly exists and what his intentions are and not actually force anybody to follow along do you believe you seem to believe that there's a Satan right yeah yeah so do you also believe the mythology that would say that Satan was one of God's angels yeah yeah so Satan in your view knows absolutely about God's power and who he is and what he wants and still chose to rebel so that means there can be no problem with the God revealing himself to all of us we would still have every opportunity to rebel and he's going to do that well what he does call back thanks okay God's gonna reveal himself what the is taking so long Jesus told some people there are some Steve still standing here who will not taste death until all these things that come to pass and thow 2000 years later now of a sudden hey there was an eclipse and there's gonna be another clips in seven years so that until the war and this I this a couple weeks ago there's a family member who because the eclipse happened in North America and that's relevant to her and that she finds out there's another one coming in North America in seven years that's the seven years that the Bible talked about except that there's also a full solar eclipse in 2019 in 2020 that it's don't happen across Missouri and there were a hundred of them in the last century there's maybe a hundred of them in the next century and oh my gosh yes we had one of the worst hurricanes ever and things are getting worse but I think the odds are more likely that it has something to do with climate change than end-times considering you can go on government websites and find out the frequency of earthquakes and the frequency of hurricanes and their magnitude and find out that yes while some things are happening that are worse shit's been bad for as long as we've been keeping track of it it's a bunch of cherry-picking to say oh look how bad everything is but it's gonna get better and then God will reveal himself well telly does our position is the only rationally justified one that we are not warranted to believe there's God if you say that later on God will reveal himself cool when that happens we will then be justified and believing it but when that happens you don't get to say you were right all along because you did not believe for good reasons you believed for bad reasons and you might as well have been predicting that you would win the lottery and then if you do claim that you are right all along getting lucky doesn't mean you are rationally justified in holding a belief thus saith the Lord a

Channel: The Atheist Experience

Views: 493,737

Rating: 4.8519111 out of 5

Keywords: atheist experience, the atheist experience, theatheistexperience, atheist, atheism, atheist vs christian, atheist debate, religion debate, atheism debate, Matt Dillahunty (Broadcast Artist), belief, faith, reason, rational, proof, evidence, logic, fallacy, religion, religious, science, secular, Skepticism, skeptic, questioning god, doubt, is god real, agnostic, agnosticism, evidence for god, Christianity, Islam, morality, evidence for jesus, Jesus, Jesus Christ, debate, Bible, Bible contradictions

Id: u1YpgFcW0pA

Length: 24min 30sec (1470 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 18 2017

Reddit Comments

[u/FadedGenes]

The caller claims to be a trans woman, so I'm skeptical that she is a JW.

[u/RoscoeJuniper]

Either she's never been honest about her gender identity with the Borg, or she's not technically in the Borg... either way, she had a real 'come to Darwin' moment there.

[u/peterblair4u]

This is amazing where the respectfully and listen and use examples to prove their point. It’s a shame the mass RandF just get stuck in a loop or say that they don’t know as they aren’t perfect and then ask an elder to come back and follow up

[u/not12listen]

oh, i've had a truly shit day... this has genuinely put a smile on my face. :)

oh, i want to cry from the joy i feel from watching this. :)

[u/Trouble_in_red_dress]

I really needed to watch this. All these posts about shunning was triggering me. This however, gave me joy.

[u/itshonestwork]

There’s never any debate between atheists and Theists. It’s one side showing the other side just how little they’ve even thought about what they’re centering their lives around. You can pick apart every argument in as much detail as you want, and it always eventually comes down to a form of “I just believe anyway” and a shrinking away from the conversation as it’s allowed to be realised on one level, before it’s all buried to keep the faith secure.
If I could have spoken to these blokes when I was a kid, they’d have helped me very quickly spot my errors.
These are good people.

[u/PowerliftinMetalhead]

She should have been admitted to the burn ward after this phone call!