He's President and CEO
of the foundation for individual rights
and expression and co-author of the book, <i> The Cancelling
of the American Mind</i> Greg Lukianoff! -(AUDIENCE CHEERING, APPLAUDING)
-♪ (UPBEAT MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ All right, how are you, sir? -Great to meet you.
-Nice to meet you. Thank you, sir. Well, you know why you're here
this week. This is the week
that they called the heads of the, uh,
Harvard and Penn and MIT. They could have called a number
of other colleges like my alma mater, Cornell, there a bunch of assholes
up there these days too. -(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
-(LAUGHS) But these were the three
who were called, and this is really
what you've been writing about for a long time,
this is what your book is about. We quoted you,
your organization FIRE a few weeks ago in an editorial,
because it was about campuses and where the free speech
was what-- First of all,
what does FIRE stand for? "A Foundation
for Individual Rights -and Expression."
-BILL MAHER: Okay. Yeah, we're 25 years old
this year. -(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
-BILL: Okay. Oh, wow! I didn't know
they were already that, okay.
So... So, I remember
when we did the piece, the-- at the absolute bottom
of the list. Th-- They got a negative score. -BILL: Was Harvard?
-Harvard, yeah. And right next to them was Penn? GREG LUKIANOFF: Yep. So, these are two
of the colleges -who are now on team Hamas?
-GREG: Yeah. (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) Is that a coincidence
or what is the connection? (CHUCKLES) Well, this is--
I mean they kind of got what they had coming,
because they-- they had to go in front of Congress
and convince them that like, "Actually
now were good on free speech," and nobody believed them. Harvard, you know,
it earned its position
at dead last. And I always give the example. You know, when it comes
to Harvard, Carole Hooven for example,
she's someone who was on a show, she was promoting
a book about testosterone, she made the point
that we should be kind and compassionate
toward trans people, use their pronouns, but we can't pretend
that biological sex isn't real. And the D.I. administrator
at Harvard, you know,
started complaining about it. Suddenly students
were boycotting her class and writing petitions. And she was-- She left Harvard
because of the environment. And so nobody could actually
take seriously the idea that they-- they believe
in free speech. Meanwhile, the president of Penn
after her disastrous performance comes out and says,
"Oh, you know what? We're not actually going to have
our policies match constitutional
standards anymore." And it's like, no, you've been
letting administrators clamp down on speech
for decades now, this will only make it worse. Okay, but the connection
between... -GREG: Yeah.
-...supporting Hamas... -GREG: Yeah
-...and the lack of free speech. -Yeah.
-Let's get into that, -GREG: Yeah.
-...because I want to read this is what the congresswoman,
who was grilling-- Elise Stefanik. (SCOFFS) Who has her own issues
with speech by the way. -(GREG CHUCKLES)
-(AUDIENCE LAUGHING) Okay, "New York State used to be
a normie". Okay, but she loves Trump now.
She's asked the Penn person, "Does calling for the genocide
of Jews violates Penn's rules or code of conduct, yes or no?" Now, I'm a free speech person
like you are. -Yeah. Yeah.
-BILL: And I'm also team Israel. -GREG: Yeah.
-So let's just get real
about this. GREG: Sure. Calling for the genocide
of Jews, one of them I think it was
the Penn person said, -"I've not heard that."
-GREG: Mmm-hmm. In other words,
"How explicit is it?" Because when I break down
the phrases that I hear. -First, there's the "intifada."
-GREG: Yeah. There are a lot of people
who say "You shouldn't say that," -I disagree. Free speech.
-GREG: Yeah. Yeah. Intifada, that's one of those
vague terms like "Jihad," it probably means violence,
but you know what, -it's just-- "uprising..."
-(ALL LAUGHING) ...whatever,
give you the benef-- Okay, then there's
"From the River to the Sea." GREG: Yep. Okay, that's a little more
genocide-y. -But, you know.
-(LAUGHS) (AUDIENCE LAUGHING) Let's give
the benefit of the doubt,
it could be, "Well we just want
the Jews to move, not die" -(LAUGHS)
-(AUDIENCE LAUGHING) Where they're gonna move to, I'm going to address that
next week, in our, for our-- Our season finale is next week,
by the way. -It is true.
-(GREG LAUGHS) -(LAUGHS)
-(AUDIENCE LAUGHING) As you can see
the excitement is building. -(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
-(GREG LAUGHING) And then there's a phrase,
"by any means necessary." Okay, now...
now I'm kind of peeing my pants. -GREG: Yeah.
-(AUDIENCE LAUGHING) Right, and I'm not even Jewish,
but come on. (LAUGHS) "By any means necessary," that-- So, where do you draw
the line here and what do you say
is free speech, and what should not be allowed? Well, w--
The First Amendment actually
gives a lot of guidance on this, and one thing that's been
horrifying over the past month is seeing a lot of unprotected
speech on campus. We're seeing things that cross
the line into true threats, discriminatory harassment, we're seeing things
that actually aren't protected. But merely expr--
offensive expression
like saying "intifada", that is absolutely protected. But can saying things like that
be part of a pattern of threats, or harassment? Of course, it can be,
and it was kind of embarrassing to watch
these university presidents of the top institutions
in the country not being able
to answer that clearly. Right, see what irks me
is that, look, I'm always gonna be
on the side of as far as you can push
free speech. -GREG: Yep.
-And of course, as you say, there's already limits to some--
speech, violence and stuff, or you can fire
in a crowded theatre-- Okay, so it's not absolute. What bothers me
is the double standard. -GREG: Oh, my God, yeah.
-That. can you imag-- I mean, okay, say they don't want
to say, "Kill the Jews"... -GREG: Mm-hmm.
-...but I certainly have heard -chanted "Fuck the Jews."
-Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. "Fuck the Jews," can you imagine
saying "Fuck the--" and any other-- I'm not
gonna say any other group because they'll clip the tape
and I'll live with that forever. -(LAUGHS)
-(AUDIENCE LAUGHING, APPLAUDING) I just-- I cannot think
of any other group... -GREG: Oh, yeah.
-..that you could say, "Fuck the blank," and have it
be acceptable. The double standards on campus,
we talk about this in canceling, we talk about this at FIRE
all the time. The double standards
are astounding, but you have to have them
when you have policies like this because if they actually enforce them against everybody,
they wouldn't last a second. Yeah, I-- you know. I honestly think the kids... I think they're...
You know that phrase, -"Useful idiots".
-GREG: Yeah. (AUDIENCE LAUGHING) The bigger scandal here is
that these are the biggest, most esteemed colleges
in the country, and they've raised
a bunch of fucking idiots.
