What's in a Name? ft. Kwame Ture (1989)

next tonight we look at one of the most vigorous internal debates in the black community in the past two decades it's the issue of changing from black to african-american it had only been 22 years since the last major name change had occurred it happened just after a white racists shot James Meredith the first black graduate of Ole Miss the shooting occurred on a southern highway as Meredith was leading a voter registration march from Memphis Tennessee to Jackson Mississippi it's so enraged student activist Stokely Carmichael that as he emerged from a Greenwood Mississippi Jail where he had been held for his voter registration work the first words to emerge from his mouth were black power it was the beginning of a major new phase in black confidence and self assertion that captured the imagination and stirred the consciousness of black people all over the world now according to some polls a majority of black people have said they prefer the term african-american but the issue is far from settled I prefer to be called african-american because african-american reflects the true nature of my cultural heritage and I think the better for you liquid black it's different black black it's black we're spending you know black is beautiful that's what I have to say I'm Donnell American well I'm a black American Oh what don't make any difference I'm just an American you had on Dukakis in the election they kept calling him Greek Americans so being a most every black person over here has African heritage you know we should be called african-american editorials in both black and white publications generally supported the call to use African American the New York Times called it healthy archeology arguing that blacks may now feel comfortable enough in their standing as citizens to adopt the family surname American and their first name African conveys a pride in cultural heritage that all Americans cherish said the Chicago Defender as the world continues to shrink Americans who speak to their African s with the african-american title will likely find the cultural education and economic relationship with others much smoother opinion also varied among the guests we interviewed in our special Black History Month series I always thought that afro-american or african-american was the appropriate designation and there is some beneficial effects and acknowledging the reality the African heritage and the American presence but that's not the critical issue the critical issue is gaining power I believe that it is important for us as a people to think that we are connected to the world because the African Diaspora was for real we were sent to different parts of the world so naturally it's our heritage but all of us here are really educated and exposed to American life so is that we really are we have to dig back the father's ancestry I mean I'm not an African it's a very complicated question so rather than argue of it let's not give up black that's not give of Africa so in all the work that I do the essays all right I use both interchangeably for more on the story we turn now to four other people with different views Kwame Toure is an organizer with all African People's Revolutionary Party a group attempting to politically unite African people living in 113 countries all over the world it was his call for black power in 1966 when he was known as Stokely Carmichael that catapulted the term black into popular usage Leon winter is a copy editor for The Wall Street Journal and last week wrote an article that appeared on the journals op-ed page called this african-american still feels black Jay Bruce Llewellyn is a businessman who owns the eighth largest coca-cola bottling company in the country he also owns television station WK BW and ABC affiliate in Buffalo Ramona Edelen is president of the National Urban Coalition she proposed the name change at the Chicago meeting of black leaders last December and to you MS Edelen the current initiative is largely your brainchild why is it important to use that term and not black Sharlene we have an opportunity to renew values such as mastery and learning the importance of the family unity which is of the utmost importance right now at a time when our children couldn't be in more distress and turmoil when we face a new century and it's up to us to be sure that the problem of the 21st century is not also the problem of the color line as Dubois prophesied in 1903 this century would be but how does that excuse me how does African American affect all of that well we see going back to African cultural ties to the land base that is our mother as crucial in this process and what I'm hoping is that we can recreate some of the spirit of the movement years particularly for the children by going back to values which were stripped systematically from us as we all know when we were enslaved for 250 years in this nation mr. winter you don't want to change from black no well I don't disagree that it is important for us to be cognizant of where we come from and the depth of our history that began before slavery I just don't see the particular need in calling for a renewal of the movement to leapfrog over the 400 odd years of history and of proud accomplishments that we can point to and indeed need to reacquaint our children with here in this country first so I believe that it is important to teach the children and to in general in view black America with the knowledge of where it comes from but to focus this effort on claiming what is ours here as Americans which is the country that we are citizens of and will we pay our taxes as well you prefer the term American well I guess um I use all my years on this earth I've been called about five or six different things I've been called black I've been called afro-american I've been now we're talking about African American we've meant I've been called Negro I've been called colored and what strikes me is a continuous theme or theorem and all of this is the fact that we never have been called full citizens of the United States of America and what I'd like to see accomplished once and for all is that we are considered as full citizens and have all the rights and privileges thereto all I see is a people and Russia people and Poland people in Nicaragua are all packing their bags and heading for the United States of America feeling it's some kind of penisy or a great place to be and there must be something here that brings all these people all I'm saying to you is it I think it's a disgrace that we have been here for well over 200 years and we have not enjoyed these full benefits that a lot of people have come here generation after generation and gotten and I think that's the key that's where we ought to go I'll be very honest with you if I had my druthers I wouldn't be worrying so much about whether you call me african-american am I not I would like very much to see throughout this country as other groups are put in museums call Holocaust to see slavery museums museums which ship would show our suffering our contribution over the years up until the year 1989 as to what we have done to give something to America I think to try and leapfrog back and take youngsters in 1989 and tell about our agrarian background in Africa is almost impossible at this point in time the other problem with this is I listen to one gentleman on the thing say well during the campaign we talked about Michael Dukakis as being a greek-american well greek-american pinpoints a country called Greece african-american does not pinpoint any country it is a continent and therefore either you're gonna play a game called European American or African American or otherwise again we still have been able to refine ourselves down to where we come from whether we come from Nigeria Kenya all right let me just go to mr toura here in the 1960s as I said before you were one of the ardent proponents of using the term black how do you feel now about abandoning it abandoning it in favor of African American well I do not even use the term African American I use the term Africans because that's what we are we're Africans in America there's nothing American about us our history has only been history of struggle in America we are the only ethnic group in America who have to shed our blood to make reform to get the vote we must shed our blood to get our children to school in my shed our blood to get on a bus and sit where we want we must shed our blood to even get in a filthy five in ten cents store we must shed our blood so I don't see how we could be American where Africans in America struggling against American capitalism and only until it's destroyed what we enjoy the rights that everyone else is speaking of well how you respond to that mr. Llewellyn well what he's trying to do is to change the name of the game or changed the rules and I'm I haven't got time to change the rules I've got a look at what is I guess I'm more practical about this may be the ideal panacea is to change the rules and make it all like kind of a equals socialistic state but Nury in the meantime let's talk about what is this is a capitalistic society we are here we are paying our taxes we are doing work each and every day and I think we have the right to participate we have sent people to war since the Revolutionary times and spilled our blood for America Crispus Attucks and the Revolutionary War all the way down through this Vietnam so therefore I want to get what you can construe as my piece of the action like everybody else has gotten and it really annoys me to see people who haven't made this kind of contribution over the years come here and feel they can claim it and get it and we have done that you have a responsive of course in the first place just because we in capitalist doesn't this because when the capitalist system doesn't mean much love it we were made slaves it doesn't mean that while you're a slave you must love slavery a conscious slave by picking cotton the plantation is thinking about how to escape how to bring freedom therefore just because when capitalism doesn't mean what's a choice we have to fight for equal society that's our history our people show that we spilled blood instinctively to advance humanity and we have this responsibility to advance America yes to a socialist state you would seem to imply from your comment that capitalism is utterly inconsistent with Africa and Africa it is but I would posit that that's not true if you look again at the nations of Africa if you look at African people in every country of the world especially and in recent times they essentially want things they want products they want the things that it's at least up to this point demonstrated that only capitalism with its imperfections and with its inequities which hopefully some people believe can still be tamed people want things and I don't somehow see a worldwide pen Africanism has also spun the death knell for capitalism at the same time it seems inconsistent there are too many people who want cars in Lagos Nigeria last time I checked the traffic jams are horrendous I don't think we can solve that one right now but let me just go back to Ramona elin because both mr. winter and mr. Llewellyn talks about how they don't think it's possible to leapfrog over a lot of history and go back it's impossible to go back to the agrarian life that you can't even pinpoint a place in Africa where black people come from if I'm if I'm paraphrasing your comments correctly how do you respond to that well first of all our culture and heritage in Africa entail far more than agrarian economies we mathematics and science were born in Africa philosophy and religion and as well as that we've been accomplished musicians and dancers for centuries there's so much in our cultural heritage that we need to recoup right now particularly for the children and it is possible to leapfrog as they put it as a matter of fact it's not only possible it's necessary because if you begin with slavery then you will still have children looking in your eyes as they do in mind in our cities and in the streets and saying what difference does it really make to you to me or to anyone else whether I live or die whether I take drugs whether I kill another person whether I learn anything in school we have a responsibility and I think that one way we can have a cultural Renaissance is to identify with a land base that gave us the wonderful things about our nature and our culture mr. Llewellyn well that all sounds very nice and wonderful but I invite you to take a look at Africa right now and today and look at the situation and eritrea against Ethiopia and all the other things that have happened Biafra with the Nigerians and what-have-you that in my opinion is idealistic and and not the gut of the problem the gut of the problem is something called values the gut of the problem is something called family the good of the problem is something called importance what do we construe and believed I would submit that without a cultural offensive without our unifying at this particular time and saying what we believe in and who we are and how we will train our children and what our families mean to us that we will continue to have those same gut issues that's precisely the point we will continue unless we develop a cultural vehicle which will move us forward all groups move forward by strength of their culture is a myth that individuals move forward and certainly we cannot accept two or three of our group emerging year after year while the vast masses of us continue to go down let me have it responsibility let me raise the point back to you Kwame Toure when you launched this move that resulted in black being adopted as the the defining symbol for african-american people many people felt that it helped to purge them of all the negative feelings about themselves that it really represented the first major psychological break and you heard the woman and the tape talk about black is beautiful I mean there was a the most positive affirmation of blackness by black people what do you say to people now who say you simply cannot abandon the term that came to symbolize so much for black people human progress does not stand still it moves we came here as Africans when the first organizations we had fighting for us is known as the free African society the very first independent organization we had in this country was the church it was known as the African Methodist Episcopal Church so from Africans our press has changed us to colored to Negro to this to that we understand it's a step coming to black had a helpful point because the point was that we were oppressed because of this call of our skin and this was racism but this fight is not just a fight over the call of a skin a fight for powers a fight for land when mr. Llewellyn speaks about power he saw about land our land is Africa America is not our land it belongs to the American Indians and we have a right to stand and take a moral struggle with them and we don't worry about people being for things people want things is incorrect the point is not to explain the world the point is to change it if the people want material things and we have a responsibility and the things were important the material things like freedom mr. winter well I can't claim to have been there indeed when black was coined because I was somewhat in high school and I was on listening and as indeed you were doing the talking but it's always been my feeling that black was more than the recognition of where our blood comes from it has a lot to do with the experience of people of color in a larger sense under colonialism whether it was external colonialism to say in the Caribbean or the internal colonialism that we had to deal with here in the United States rather than simply a statement of Africa because the fact is we have become more than simply descendants of Africa we have created a lot of what America is in our own image when we talk you talk about this cultural based offensive I would rather see us claim American culture which is not European culture America does not mean white American doesn't mean white it means a combination of European and African and Asian and the rest of the cultures of the whole world this is what America is and if it denies the fact of what is African within it then it is up to us to continue to assert that no America does not mean white America means a melting and a combination of things that's the point we are saying African and American and not everyone is willing to say American and not everyone is willing to say African but the point is we are trying to merge the two and American society at this point in time does exclude the African reality America is an African as well as a European invention we know that but it isn't accepted widely doesn't now let me ask you this miss even what is wrong haki madhubuti said a few moments ago that in his writing and everything he's going to use both I mean is there something is there a problem with using African American for those who choose to and for those who choose to use black to use black no I think we all will use both to a certain extent first of all it's going to be hard to break old habits that were very dear to us and I certainly was along with Stokely in the days when the name was changed but it is important to continue to draw the consciousness of our people to a set of values which were positive and productive for us to call our mother's name our mothers name is Africa we are children without her if we leave that out and I think that it's fair to say no one of us is satisfied with the status quo today well what it seems that Time magazine in fact has a piece on this this week and it says it for more than a century descendants of freedmen have debated what name they should bear as a people and in every instance the shift in the change of Appalachian coincided with a new phase in the struggle for equality is that what's going on now in your view and and what stage is this yes and I think this is a point of evolution in our culture and it's the stage right before we cross the threshold to the 21st century I think we are saying that there's a quickening of our will we will not cross the threshold of the 21st century in the condition that we are today alright let me ask mr. winter what do you think about that I don't necessarily see this as a quickening if you will in that in that kind of direction it seems to me that that a move like business is an attempt more at a rhetorical assertion to sort of put a new name on things but I don't see where it quite takes us to getting a better handle on what is immediately in front of us maybe I should say Charlene that the cultural offensive is going to entail agenda setting goals setting working together to achieve our purposes as you well know Charlene in the movement years when you decided to desegregate the University of Georgia along with ham we were unified around your decision we were purposeful we were powerful there was a sense of destiny and we achieved our goals but we are so sadly lacking now is any sense of purpose or destiny we are not setting agendas we are not working together though we're working very hard because we don't have the right name well the name change is the first step in what we hope will be a self-conscious examination of our culture going back to our ancient as well as our contemporary strengths and pulling together a vehicle which will be more useful to us than the one that we are now engaged in if anyone is satisfied with the status quo I'm not aware of it particularly our children mr. Llewellyn just very briefly do you see this as a as a critical stage in the evolution of I swear I do not know why people keep talking about what the container is called it's what's the content of the container this won't get us into the 21st century unless our kids can read write compute and be able to compete in this country to make a living and to make progress if that doesn't take place we can put African American on and we can put Negro on and we can put anything you want to put on them but they're not gonna play the game in the 21st century because the field is getting tougher and tougher and this not a level field let me just get a about to run out of time mr. trade a final comment on that the era of the thinking here is that most people think that Africans in America came here just like other immigrant groups did all other immigrants came to America expecting a better way of life we started in hell which was a slave ship and we're still in hell can this incorrect assumption makes it appear as if we've made a contribution with our culture our culture has been trampled upon not the others any contribution we've made to America is the test of the strength of our culture in spite of this oppression we are Africans and that's exactly where we're going is that goodness is that term in your view is that where you end it is that the content the content was African the label has been changed to confuse us if we came as Africans how do we end up as Americans how do you that my ancestors came here in the slave boat they didn't they came from the island of Jamaica and they came on their own because they thought it's a better place to be did you make it they came a slice that you make I was born in Trinidad that's Johnny slaves we can't solve this with make Oh what did you decide to drop in Jamaica a white man dropped you in Jamaica and brought you to Mississippi so you don't define yourself by the enemy no I define myself as the fighting places where I'm at not where I used to be a where I thought I do so if you fighting slaves we fought on the spaceships we fought on the slave ships did you call yourself a water and you're still fighting the 1989 right here in New York City Africa is free we won't be free all right went one final practical note mr. winter you're the only editor here how do you how should the media deal with this as you can see there's a debate over the issue what about newspapers television books magazines we should they continue to you he said he was going to continue to use both I mean what kind of guidance do you think should apply there oh speaking immediately for newspapers and again while I don't represent directly The Wall Street Journal here I can tell you that they have discussed this issue recently and concluded that they will wait and watch to take the general standard of what comes to be common usage among black people in general as is least I'll call it now and moreover among academics and political and social leaders and that sort of thing and if a consensus appears to emerge then style changes will probably mean forthcoming at our paper and I imagine I believe in fact the New York Times has said similar things which is about all they can do because they to them it's well there's something going on there in the community and we don't really know what to make of it all they want to know is that they really don't want to offend anyone in the end if it becomes apparent that everybody wants this then they'll likely go along although they will use people of color in the media as sounding boards to make the decision sure you'll have I'm sorry we'll just have to wait and watch and see what happens because we're out of time MS Edelen in Washington thank you for being with us mr. winter mr. Llewellyn and mr. terrain Africans

Channel: AfroMarxist

Views: 120,750

Keywords: Kwame Ture, AARP, Socialism, Marxism, African Socialism, Kwame Nkrumah, Seko Toure, Africa, All African Revolutionary Party

Id: OGcl359SMxE

Length: 24min 59sec (1499 seconds)

Published: Sun Oct 27 2019