What You Don't Learn In Film School - Shane Stanley [FULL INTERVIEW]

Film Courage: Shane by the time you'd finished  what the fifth grade you'd already had   a hundred films and commercials under your  belt do you remember those days? Shane Stanley,   Author/Filmmaker:: i remember those days um as a  youngster working in in hollywood i got my start   and i was born in 1971 and the same year century  21 became a thing it was a big real estate company   and a friend of my father's uh was producing  a series of commercials for them and he said   we're trying to appeal to young families looking  to buy homes we need it we can't find a kid that   can sit and behave long enough to get these takes  done and you know i was literally sitting in the   corner chewing on something and my dad said won't  you take him so i started as a baby actor in front   of the camera those days i don't remember my first  memory of working on set was with june lockhart   you know from lassie and i worked with june  on some projects that my father was producing   and then lloyd haynes from room 222 uh ron masak  who i'm still very dear with who's ron's been in   everything from harper valley pta torre tortora  he was a velocic pickle stork murder she wrote   and then was on um whitney in a robot with david  arkin back for nbc before i was seven years old   um so i grew up doing a lot of on-camera work as  a youngster and what was really interesting is my   father got a contract with encyclopedia britannica  to do all their what they called burns and poisons   and general safety films the educational films of  the 70s why was that kid i was that kid that was   riding his bike across the street without looking  both ways and got hit i was the kid who ran out in   the street after his frisbee or his baseball  and got hit i was i was getting hit by cars   in my dad's video um you know the kid that got  electrocuted because he put the paper clip in the   in the socket and what was weird was this was  mandated viewing in all the schools growing up so   we would have these assemblies and it was kind of  weird because you were stuck with 500 kids in this   auditorium watching your your video and they'd  watch you get electrocuted i got to drown a couple   times i was the kid who got in the pool and you  know went after something when nobody's looking   and drowned and yeah that was that was how i  started my career it reminds me of scared straight   do you remember that i know it well i remember it  just kind of reminds me of that was also mandatory   viewing yeah that's right it was it was so so  long story longer is my father he had been a   successful actor in the 70s you know and fell in  love with filmmaking so he went all out and bought   a moviola flatbed a couple of re-16 cameras  that he had and at a very young age i started   learning how to splice film run the moviola use  an ra16 and be an assistant you know whether i   was doing the slate or assisting the editors that  would come in to sync sound or splice film and   i actually enjoyed that kind of work a lot more  than showing up on a set sitting around for six   hours to get 20 minutes of work in very  young so i retired in front of the camera   probably before i was 11 or 12. those days were  behind me but then by the time you were 19 you   had won two emmys yeah i was nominated for four  emmys before my 19th birthday and one and two okay   blessing or curse um you know it sure was a  blessing that night you know i was the toast   of the town i remember going to the after parties  and hitting all those restaurants being that that   16 year old kid walking around with an emmy in the  restaurant that was cool but you go back to school   life goes on and i was not sure what i wanted  to do with my life i was very fortunate to   have the opportunity to work in the industry but  i i wasn't passionate about it i wanted to be   a drummer for a season i wanted to race dirt bikes  for another season and and my interest kind of   followed that and i'd always get back into working  in our industry because dad was doing a project he   needed help um you know hey somebody needs an ac  that guy that worked on our last film needs to   hire an assistant cameraman i want you to go work  with him for the day so i always got pulled back   in and didn't try and i think the curse was here's  somebody who didn't put much thought or effort   into what i did and had four emmy noms and two  wins before i had really been a year out of high   school before i was old enough to drink i was i  was that deep and when i finally decided to pursue   this industry i made a decision to put the emmys  in a closet i got rid of them out of sight out of   mind for probably 10 years started at the bottom  my father had a wonderful assistant janet stone   who uh used to work at castle rock for allens with  belle and larry david and i called her one day and   said i want to get into this industry i want to  start from the ground up i want to start over   and and re re pave the way to where i need to go  and she made a phone call for me and i had taken   a couple interviews and was working at castle rock  uh shortly after and got fired from them after a   year and uh was the best thing ever happened to me  because i learned that you know what i thought i   knew didn't matter i learned how to become a good  listener didn't matter what i had achieved or done   before fortunately there wasn't the internet or  imdb so people didn't look up their pa to see   what my history was so i started from  the ground up and worked with castle   rock for about a year and a half on shows like  seinfeld seaquest all-american girl roseanne   and then after getting fired wound up working for  entertainment tonight for a year and a half until   viacom took over the studio and then from then  went freelance and figured it out just started   working wherever i could doing whatever i could  what did getting fired teach you what it really   taught me was is you know you can still put the  emmys in the closet but you still have a sense of   belonging you still don't feel like the bottom guy  in the totem pole even though i was i was hired as   the office pa at you know 447 at universal  studios during taping of a lot of these big   sitcoms so i was nothing and i think because of my  upbringing and because of what i had experienced   i naturally felt like i had a sense of belonging  that may have not been warranted just because of   my own history and that was on me i knew i was  in trouble when they had a very famous director   by the name of john rich come in to direct  one of the episodes john had done the brady   bunch he's been around um i think he did sound of  music um wasn't john rich it was another director   bobby wise forgive me forgive me and um i was told  nobody's allowed to talk to him he's a legend if   you're below the line you don't look at him you  don't talk to him well i walk down the hall to   deliver my smart and final run and bobby wise is  in the cafeteria making himself a sandwich or a   bowl of soup and i said mr wise how you doing  he looked at me and he goes what's up kid and i   said wells roots my uh my godfather lee stanley's  my dad and he stopped everything gave me argues   what are you doing here let's let's hang out and  i think because i did what i shouldn't have done   um it showed my bosses that i don't listen well i  didn't care what they said i wanted to do what i   wanted to do and i only did that because because  he was a true friend of the family my godfather   and him had done three movies together and  i knew who he was and i got fired over that   wow so i learned quick uh follow directions  it's interesting though we won't go too deep   into this but how sometimes it's not actually  that if someone's ego was offended but anyway   that i could i could tell you it was the  showrunner's husba showrunner's wife was   my boss and uh when i got fired it was pretty  interesting i got brought in by the upm who was   a wonderful human being who worked for castle rock  he said look you did nothing wrong technically   it's just a weird dynamic man he goes you know  you're not supposed to talk to a guy and you   end up knowing this guy and i mean this guy  had been out of my dad's boat three times i   mean that's how i knew i mean why not say  hi to him but i was told don't talk to him   i should have told my boss look he's an old  family friend and i didn't but and those are   the yeah the unwritten rules of hollywood that  sometimes we learn unfortunately hence your your   book that you will go more into thank you yeah  okay do you think if you had been in your 40s   and had won those two emmys or been nominated for  four that it would have been a sweeter victory or   you don't really think about that it's just  been your life you know that's a great question   i think at the end of the day i often i i i went  through a phase where i assumed up until i was 40   that i had peaked at 16 or 17 or 18. i think  that's a dangerous thing i mean i talk about   i was very fortunate very young to be a part of  something that was successful it wasn't me it was   the team and i was just a lucky recipient i mean  we had 33 emmy noms in five years when i think we   won 13 or 14 emmys so i was very fortunate to be a  part of that because of my camera work or the the   other production work that i did on these shows  but you know you get to know childhood actors   growing up like macaulay culkin or adam rich was  a friend of mine or you know working with charlie   sheen for many years and we talk about peaking  at a young age you know charlie's great success   obviously he had tremendous success through many  years capping it with two and a half men in anger   management but you think about platoon and wall  street how that all happened before he was really   before he's 22 years old um you talked to  adam rich about the success he had as a   youngster gary coleman and i i always felt i  could connect with those guys because of that   i understood what it was like to be very lucky  to be very fortunate to be a part of something   i never took it for granted i never used  it i don't think to my advantage but   i couldn't help but think as i was going through  my 20s and 30s as i was trying to find my way   and create and write and produce or direct  or edit films i i got to get this this kind   of success i got to achieve this and though i  had success through those years it wasn't until   i was about 40 or 41 maybe it's that midlife  crisis they all tell us that you get at 40.   that i i realized that i was chasing something  that i was never going to never achieve again   it didn't mean i'd never win an emmy again but i  wasn't going to win another one at 16. i was 40.   and you know so you see people go through it  every year hundreds of people win a statue   that could be me again it might not be um but i  think the excitement of it was the fact that i   was so young and that's what made it special and  you can't go backwards you can't go back in time   does the film industry make people  crazy and if not why that perception   yeah i think there's a a lot of crazy that  comes hand in hand with being an artist   anyway there's an eccentricity with creative  beings we're dreamers i think any time you you   live your life based on kind of playing the odds  of the lottery how does it not make you crazy as   i talk about in my book what other business do  you know of really you know music film dance   art where you could literally be homeless living  on a friend's couch and get an audition for that   one role and become the next gal gadot you could  become the next you know jason bateman you can be   anybody and you know you think about doctors  lawyers successful business people they they   have a path they still may be trying to figure out  that path but they usually go to college they'll   often figure out a plan and a road get get their  eye on a prize and work their way to it you know   medical school being six years and then residency  that's that's a game plan for artists for what we   do the game plan is bust your ass you know make it  you'll fake it till you make it you know it's it's   never give up it's i can't quit because my break  may come tomorrow and i think a lot of people uh   coming up that way and trying to find their path  uh in their place it can make you crazy i've found   trying to find my path has made me a little nuts  sometimes as i say a little south of sanity um i   also find once we get in a position of authority  it's i think no other industry is as uh is unkind   as ours and i know everybody says there's horrible  people in every industry i've been around every   industry you can imagine because of what i do  and the things that i've experienced and shot   and i it it's mind-boggling how people are treated  and yeah the i think the me too movement and then   the aftermath of that and people and how we talk  to one another was so long overdue but it's it's   amazing what people get away with and i still  think they get away with it know how they talk   to each other and treat people i and i that that  can make people crazy you know i think it does   sure what about people's reactions to artists  you know there's all these sort of stigmas that   artists are selfish or whatever can we talk about  other people's reactions can i swear uh okay one   swear word one f mom okay i i have a brother who  i i love more than anything he's very successful   and he has a motto that he's always kind of looked  at what with what we do and he's always said look   you want to be an artist go paint in a [ __ ]  park on saturday get a job life's a business don't   don't you know life's life goes by fast you don't  want to look back when you're 40 or 50 and wonder   what happened you know he's the smart squirrel  that always stashed away during the winter   you know for the winter months and i i see that  i i came from a my mother was from manhattan uh   from new york a very successful lawyer was her  father she was a very successful real estate agent   her brother is a you know was the  director of primary care for kaiser   and the fact that i didn't go to college  the fact that i just wanted to be a dreamer   uh figure out what i'm gonna do with myself and  you know the three choices i picked were were   music dirt bikes and films so you don't need  a college education for either and all of them   are pretty pretty big shots in the dark i think  people look at artists and uh as i call us um   you know people who who express themselves for  a living a lot of people don't understand it i   i find when i talk with different schools  different institutions a lot of parents   um are more supportive now than they  were when i was growing up because   you have things like you know somebody like  mark zuckerberg coming along and creating   facebook you have somebody who created twitter or  pinterest and all these things that one day they   they wrote a code for something that made him a  billionaire overnight so i think we have a little   more leeway and a little more grace from  people who look down at the dreamers and the   the creative beings but i still i still get sad  when i talk to a lot of the the youngsters coming   up and it's like they don't have the support from  their family especially the ones that are going   to community college because they don't have the  financial means to put themselves to a good school   and they certainly don't have the support of  parents i actually encounter some very well to do   people in the community colleges whose parents are  like i'll write the check to go to usc tomorrow   you want to go to yale we'll make it happen  but you're going to go down this path you're   on your own and i think that's unfortunate um  so i think there's a little bit of a stigma   still um but i don't think it's as bad as it was  when when i was coming up do you think people and   community colleges i know we're going off on a  little bit of a tangent but are less competitive   with one another i mean i went to a community  college at that time the internet was just   starting up so you couldn't look somebody up and  say oh what's this person's deal so you could be   more anonymous but i felt like it wasn't like uber  competitive and i was able to enjoy myself there   i've gotten to the point where whenever a  community college says would you could you   can you the answer is yes because there's a purity  there is a drive there is a determination without   prejudice i find a lot of the people at community  colleges now are on their second their second wave   of life they're often parents they take buses and  public modes of transportation to get to school   they're putting themselves through you know  paying a few hundred dollars a unit to try to get   to something and i enjoy that crowd a lot um  i do work with a lot of universities and i   appreciate and cherish that time too but the  mindset is different um i can tell you without   naming names there are universities that accept  the fact that their students will not finish their   thesis film after having three years to do it and  they still get a beautiful diploma and march down   march down the uh the stage and i i don't  understand that our business will not   hire you if you don't finish a task if  you don't show up and you don't deliver   you don't work so i don't know why you'd reward  them and and i had a chair at a very prominent   film school university tell me once we don't  want to deal with the lawsuits so we passed   them and if i'm breaking protocol by coming out  and saying that i don't care that's how it is   and that doesn't happen at community  college you have guys like dan watanabe and   chris rossiter and some wonderful teachers who  have been that and done there and spent more time   on a set than most university professors have and  they are very happy to fail you uh if you don't   do the work and i appreciate that because that's  how it is remember alex p keaton from family times   he was always marty mcfly he was always throwing  community colleges under the bus that was his like   go-to thing but i i think they are salt of the  earth and i and i i it's funny i will tell you   when they first when i first wrote my book and a  few of the universities were getting excited and   a few blacklisted me and just by the title of  the book because i used to be welcome to give   lectures and workshops and speak and then as  soon as they read the manuscript it was oh   well the title of your book you're out and  it's like i have no problem with film school   if you didn't grow up around it you need to learn  these things all i want to do is teach you what   they don't teach you there's the business of the  business of distribution and how to get financing   you know not french new year or what angle to put  the camera and the lights at there's so much more   to learn doing your own deals production deals  distribution agreements actor agreements how to   approach talent how to approach money you don't  talk about that in film school that's what i   that's what i teach and when i first got people  excited about the book and it started like well   you know there's there's nine community colleges  out where you are and we'd really love to get you   roped in with them i at first was a little  kind of like what am i getting into here   and i went and spoke for my first time at a  community college and i never looked back i   loved the passion these people had and they're not  kids we have people our age there i mean there's   i go to some of these workshops there's people in  their 60s and 70s trying to figure out their next   chapter and i love that they've been that done  there they're old souls they've lived they've   scrapped for everything they've got they've  fought for every piece of real estate they own   usually and i i just think that makes for better  artists i think it makes for better human beings   shane in your book what you don't learn in film  school you say you've been rich and you've been   poor you like rich better what did each experience  teach you what happened how did you get from point   a to point b and back you know i've been rich i've  been poor and i of course you like rich better you   want to be able to take your loved ones out to  dinner you want to be able to take a vacation   you want to be able to pay a mortgage bill or  a phone bill when it comes in without breaking   a sweat and figuring out where that's going to  come from um you know when you when you start out   you know i was very stubborn i wanted to  prove my independence maybe it came from   being unlucky enough to win two emmys before my  19th birthday but you know for my 18th birthday   i graduated high school on my 18th birthday june  15 1989 i was in my first condo living on my own   within a couple months after that i moved right  out and my parents didn't want me to leave they   didn't they weren't saying hey get your life  together you need to get a house or move out i   just was like wanted my independence and you know  it was amazing you don't when you're not educated   like me in the fundamentals of life  sense i was an old soul when it came   to dealing with the things that i had seen  and experienced and witnessed as a young kid   but i you know really taught me how to  balance a checkbook nobody taught me about   where to put money or how to how to manage money  so i was that kid that would make five grand and   spend 10 you know the next day just assuming and  then forgetting there were taxes and bills and   you know so i um i learned very quickly how fast  money goes i learned very quickly how you have to   promote yourself to work we're we're sales people  in this industry we're we're selling widgets which   are ourselves we're selling a product whether  it's a script or us as an actor or a filmmaker   and i learned what it's like to file bankruptcy  when i was in my 20s i learned what it was like to   be evicted when i was in my 20s i learned what it  was like to have a car repossessed when i was in   my 20s and then another car repossessed when i was  in my 20s and another car repossessed after that   in my 20s so you know finally a light goes on and  say okay this isn't working and then you learn how   to manage and then you know you have success you  work hard you know it's fortunate i was a part of   some successful projects and i liked rich better  because i wasn't getting my cars repossessed   and i was able to go to nice dinners when  i felt like it and i was able to you know   pay rent or mortgage and not sweat um plus those  are some big guys repossessing those cars there's   some big guys and i learned at a young age not to  fight them either i learned the hard way when they   don't collect no they don't mess around those guys  because they don't get paid unless they bring a   car back and you know i didn't know that you know  and those crowbars they have that they they they   don't mind swinging at them i mean they'll they'll  hit you with them but uh anyway um so i when when   it came around again i learned to be a little  bit more responsible not to live outside my means   and i i i'm not rich or poor now i i make  a living being a filmmaker i'm comfortable   um i don't ever take anything for granted i  don't regret any decisions i've made or what   i've experienced um sure we'd all like to to be  able to just thumb our nose and only do what we   want when we want but that's not what life's about  i've been in those chapters where you know you can   go four or five years and not worry about work and  it's easy to become complacent it's easy to become   put things in cruise control and lose the edge  lose the venom as i say and i find when i think   of myself in a situation of needing to provide  for my family when i think about needing to keep   a roof over my head and wanting to be able to  have a nice dinner once a month or to take a   little road trip with my wife it reminds me i  got to keep my my nose to the grindstone and i   never get complacent i'm always grinding can we  can we hear a story about a great time where you   you had the 5 000 payout and spent 10 and then  maybe times when yeah things were really bad and   i'll give you a better one i remember the 25 000  days those were the fun ones you know when you get   a phone call out of the blue it's like hey we need  you to do a commercial it only pays 25 grand but   we'll only need you for five hours can you come in  sure i'll be there and you know and i had a loan   out company so they'd take out taxes so you know  you're getting a check for 25 grand and that's   for like four hours of work that doesn't it's not  a bad day you know or i remember selling a script   um my first screenplay i ever sold i got 125  thousand dollars for it i wrote it in two weeks   it doesn't happen often but you forget about  agents managers lawyers business managers taxes   that that 125 grand turned into about fifty one  thousand dollars really quick i had already bought   two new cars four jet skis two motorcycles  and took a bunch of friends to vegas so you know stupid is easy come easy go right so  you know that happens um as far as being broke i   i remember uh renting a house and knowing deep  down inside i couldn't maintain it but boy it   sure looked good at the moment and made me  feel like the king of the mountain because   it was on top of a mountain in the valley and i  remember after three months getting a call from   the landlord he's like i'm sure you know but  you know you're check bounced and i was like   okay and i'm looking at my bank statement i  got 320 to my name i just bounced to 2600 check   yeah you know and then you're you're robbing  peter to pay paul to to make rent and uh   next thing you know you're you're living with  a buddy in his two-bedroom apartment paying him   300 bucks until he could figure it out again  and you know because of this crazy business   i got a phone call and went off and did a  five million dollar movie six weeks later   and i was back at it again you know making good  money all in the unions and it's crazy business   so what i've learned to do is is to just just  be and treat every every job as your last   and every dime that you get that you may never get  another and i'm not stingy you just become more   prudent as you get older you know i'm going  to be 50 next year you know i don't want to   have to keep hustling when i'm 70. i'd like to do  only what i want to do when i'm 70. and i've been   lucky i get to do what i want to do but there's  still the desire to get out and work so i don't   have to worry those friends that you took to  vegas do you still talk to them incidentally no no   no so when the money went away those friends  went away it's like you hear about all the   sports athletes and rock stars and the  actors that when it's good it's good and   when it's bad it's bad it's the same for us  behind the scenes guys you know when you're   19 20 21 years old and you're burning through  250 300 000 a year living on your own without   any responsibilities you're the life of the  party and then when you got to start telling   your friends you know that's why i bought so many  jet skis because i wanted my friends to come out   and jet ski with me they couldn't afford their own  so i'll buy three or four let's go out together   and then you know they call you and say hey  let's go jet skiing this weekend and you're like   yeah i sold them well those group of friends fall  away and then you know hey i need to borrow your   your truck this week i i got to do something well  i don't have the truck anymore i've only got my   you know my my two-seater right now or my  four-seater cars like oh and then those people   go away you know it's just like fairweather  friends sure i i have some great friends i've   known all my life but the people that went to  vegas back then no i don't see them anymore   shane in your new book what you don't learn in  film school was there a chapter or section that   sparked controversy oh absolutely um i think the  most controversial chapter in the book is the one   that's the most important and that's to get out  dig ditches get your hands dirty and make yourself   available and whatever it takes to get on a set  within your morals values and ethics parameter to   go do it and when i came up as we talked about how  i made phone calls and hustled to get work and get   on sets i worked for free i brought my own lunch  i showed up first and left last i was sweeping   floors when it wasn't in my job description and  i have close friends that our generation grew up   you know i have a friend whose father won two  oscars and his mother has nine emmys you want   to talk about nepotism and when he got his act  together like i did he said hey you know yeah   i want to work in this business i want to be an  editor mom picked up the phone made a phone call   okay he'll be there tomorrow two o'clock perfect  thank you click you got a job you're sweeping   floors it color deluxe you're getting paid nothing  pack a launch deer and he swept floors deluxe   for two years i think it was deluxe and he didn't  have a problem with that he thought that's normal   i had won emmys at a young age and started over  and we talked about not being able to make rent   well there was something called crew call back  when i was coming up and you would literally   subscribe for like 50 a month you would call  an 800 number and you would say you know press   one for camera press two for sound press three for  you know electric and you would press these things   that you could do and then you would hear about  jobs and you would write it down and it would give   you a fax number and you would fax your resume you  would spend a day a week doing that and pray your   phone rang and sometimes it wouldn't so a friend  would call and say hey i need a i need a swing   in the camera department tomorrow i pay lunch  you enter out and i was like yeah i'm there   the biggest problem i have today is when i talk  to film schools or when people read that chapter   about having to invest in yourself and build your  resume you know so many people are in my opinion   in film school are sold on hopes and dreams and  um being the next tarantino or damian chazelle   and my advice is well if that doesn't happen  what's the game plan so get out and learn   camera learn sound learn editing learn  grit learn gaff learn ac whatever you can   and if somebody can't pay you to do something  and you have an opportunity to make new contacts   learn and be on a set something good will come  from that do you would you rather sit home and   play on your phone or play xbox or watch repeated  streaming shows that you've seen six times you   want to get out and make new contacts and i find a  lot of people uh think that's not the way to do it   and i also think okay well over 85 percent of  people who spend money and graduate from film   schools never earn a dime in our industry and  there's a reason for it and that's because they   are uneducated on how to make their lives work  and how to build a career base and contacts and   become steady earners in our business and the way  i did it the way i know a lot of people who did it   was they got out there and proved their worth  by hustling and some of the best workers like   we just felt finished a film called break even  that comes out some of the best workers on that   film were the interns from lake pierce  college there's a kid that stands out   he worked so hard every day never said a word  head down he anticipated everybody's needs he   was the guy that was cleaning up everybody's  trash at the end of the night showed up on   days he wasn't supposed to be there just because  he wanted to check in say i'm coming in tomorrow   does anybody need anything you know what i always  tell people is when you make a movie and you're   trying to carve your way make it so the decision  makers don't want to make a movie without you   and every time you do a film you sure meet a  lot of people you never want to make another   movie with but it's nice when you see those one  or two diamonds in a rough that you say god i   i want to bring them back and they were they were  somebody who was a pa they were an assistant they   were a runner and i think if people take that  approach as as i say in the book um whenever   you offer somebody a job it's what's my credit  what's my pay it's always the first question   what's my credit what's my pay and i think it  needs to be okay you know take a breath and think   about what the experience can do for you i mean  i talked in the same chapter i talk about the the   best thing i ever did for my career was say yes  to something i knew nothing about i did it for   free and it took up a month and a half of my life  and that was going to bali indonesia with zalman   king when he directed in god's hands solomon had  seen my work ethic around a sound stage he owned   in canoga park i was sweeping floors and he's  like he walked in and he goes i thought you were   producing or doing something more important  i said yeah everybody left i wanted to leave   your studio the way we found it and he says what's  your name and he came over and he talked to me and   we befriended each other and he came and visited  the next day on set and next thing you know he   called me up and he said hey what are you doing  in november or december and i said i don't know   what do you got and he said well i'm doing a  film in bally i think i think uh you should come   i said do what he said shadow me learn he goes  i'll offer you free education working with me and   and we'll feed you and travel you and you figure  out the rest you didn't pay me a dime and it was   it was like talk about film school you're sitting  next to zalman freaking king as he's directing a   movie for a major studio and i was on his hip for  a month and a half doing that and i learned more   by just saying yes and then ask what  i get a credit and what i get paid   you know and they limited me to the airport and  first class me round trip gave me my own bungalow   and in a five-story resort i didn't ask for any  of that i didn't i probably know i'd be sleeping   in a tube tent on the side of a mountain you  know but they took care of me and uh i think   that's the attitude obviously you don't want  to be taken advantage of you don't want to get   into a situation that's not healthy but there  seems to be such resistance in getting out and   experiencing work without worrying about pay  there's too many people that'll do it do you   think that's because for you know our generation  gen x that there wasn't the term intern you know   and some of the let's play the devil's advocate  yes interns can be taken advantage of in terms of   absolutely people using free labor and and not  stringing them along and not giving them a job is   that what they're afraid of i don't know i think  honestly um i think as a society we would become   pretty tender i think we become very sensitive and  i think people are afraid of exploitation which i   think is something we all need to consider but  you know i i know i've got a nephew who worked   as his you know what off working for a financial  institution in arizona and scottsdale working 18   hours a day getting their lunch cleaning up  their mess getting them coffee you didn't get   paid much at all but now he's an actual worker  in that industry and he used that after colleges   wasn't for college credits he graduated college  his dad made a few phone calls and said you're   going to go sweat you're going to wear a tie and  you're going to go you're going to go ride their   their wave you're not going to get paid you're  going to learn it happens in other industries but   it's just seems in ours i think it's because  the hours are abused you know and if in a normal   workplace it's an eight-hour work day with an  hour break in film it's 10-12 if you're lucky and   i think people are afraid they're going to  be working 16 18 hours a day as free labor   so it's hard to say why but i never questioned  that i maybe maybe it was just the fact that i   could be on a set and make connections and learn  and i always figured well i could sit at home and   wait for the phone to ring or i could be on a  set and meet a director or a producer who may   find my my job skills necessary to bring me to the  next journey and then make a great connection and   say by the way i have a script by the way you  know i also do camera can i get an opportunity   and it doesn't happen by sitting at home it  just doesn't great okay excellent at least   i don't think it does i mean you can upload  youtube and vimeo until you're blue in the face yeah but working with you know being around  people is is a different experience absolutely   there's good and bad best gigs and best  opportunities i ever had in my life were   showing up and working hard and proving myself  as a worker who was competent and the people in   the decision-making capacities going out of their  way to say hey you know appreciate your work today   thank you and then you know we've got something  coming up next week i want to get you on that   and then they start to appreciate you and  you work these gigs and next thing you know   you have an audience you have an ear with the  decision makers and when you want to move up in   the world or they know people that will benefit  by knowing you that's all it is in this business what caused you to leave the film industry for  what two years two years i did to do some soul   searching i i i needed a break i you know i i got  my first national commercial i was nine months old   i had gone through the highs and lows the  riches and poor's been through a divorce   marriage and a divorce rather quickly and you  know as i used to say my life was trying to have a   like having a picnic at the runway  at that time in my life it was very   just very a lot going on it's very turbulent and  i i was approaching 30 i was in my late 20s and   you kind of hit rock bottom emotionally i  wasn't you know suicidal i wasn't destitute   but i was emotionally done i had been doing one  thing and one thing only for so long even though i   i dabbled in other hobbies or career paths suggest  you know ideas coming up i had only done one thing   and i i needed a break i just needed you know it's  one of those things is this really what i want to   do is this something i want to continue doing  is this something i want to pursue and put the   next chapter or the next 30 years of my life  into you know when you start coming up on 30   you do a lot of soul searching you're  not a kid anymore you know your 20s are   coming up being over and you got to start thinking  you know things haven't gone as i thought they   would or i hope they would is this something i  want to keep doing and it was the best thing i   ever did i actually went and sold cars i went  and sold cars for a ford dealership for galp   and ford and it happened by accident i was having  lunch with the owner's son we were good friends   and his father came in who owned a dealership he  came in he looked at me and he said you look like   you don't look too good and he said you look like  your soul's been bought and sold down a river   a half a dozen times and i said yeah it's been a  rough go i'm going through a divorce going through   bankruptcy and i'm just you know business closed  down one of my partners went a little cuckoo   and he said well why don't you come sell cars  and i said what are you nuts i sell cars and he   looked at me and he said you've been peddling that  crap you call art for the last 20 years you made   a living doing that you got the number one ford  dealer in the world cars sell themselves you never   went to college you don't know how to do anything  other than what you do why don't you learn and get   an education learn how to listen learn how to  sell he goes i promise you when you quit here   if you decide not to stay you will take what  you learn here and be better at what it is   you think you can do and boy was he right  that was my college education selling cars   what was that first morning like  getting ready to go to galpin   well they stuck me in a four-week training  course so i went and learned how to sell   for four weeks under lou brown who was a  very world-renowned car sales guru that   used to tour the world and teach salesmen  getting ready to hit the floor how to sell   i could i would always been told i could sell  ice to an eskimo and we had 18 graduates in my   class and i was the last one to sell a car it  took me three and a half weeks to move a car and   it got to the point where my boss pulled me aside  and said if you don't sell a car today i'm gonna   tr i'm gonna request you to be transferred  or fired because you're you're not you're not   moving anything and there was a cop that used to  drive by the dealership he lived in palmdale he   worked at lapd nicest guy in the world he used  to stop by and visit me every other day and you   know he would just he i encountered him one day  on the lot and we hit it off and i you know i   have a heart for cops and he was a neat guy and  i thought he wanted to buy a ford explorer and he   would talk to me about it every day and finally  you know at that time my boss yelled to me said   you don't sell he showed up the guy showed up that  he said you don't sell him a car today you're done   so i walked out and he wanted to see me and i'm  walking around a lot with him and i he looked at   me and he said you seem a little like something's  up what's on your mind you know he's a cop they're   intuitive right he was a detective he's like  what's going on you see him a little i said   sir if you don't buy a car for me today i'm  going to get fired and he goes you're kidding   me your boss said that and i said yeah and he  goes well we can't have that happen i like it   in the blue let's wrap this up never saw him  again he bought the car and never saw him again   the cool thing is i sold another car that day  and then i started to become a good salesman   it was just about doing that and that's what  i try to use in teaching a lot of the kids   about writing their first screenplay uh going on  their first audition working on their first show   shooting your first project even if it's on your  phone until you do it you don't know what it's   like and once you do it it gets easier and you'll  fail you'll make a lot of mistakes do it again   fail again but every time you do it you're not  going to make the same mistake twice it's like   i've been at this a long time i've been  a producer filmmaker going on 30 years   and i make mistakes every time i i make a film i  make i make mistakes but i don't make them twice   so every time i make a movie i make a new  mistake and then next time i know i won't   make that mistake again and you grow you grow  and and that's what i try to encourage the young   the young storytellers coming up is it's okay  to fail fail often get it out of your system   when did you feel you were ready to go back in you  had sold some cars maybe you got your confidence   back up i worked i committed to do a year i ended  up working 18 months with galpin and it was the   most incredible years of my life i'm still very  close to the ownership i'm still very close to   a lot of people i sold cars with and i'm still  close to some of the customers i sold cars to   i was in 18 months there were some issues with a  manufacturer that was not ford but that was very   public when they had tires that were ripping  off of cars and i had sold probably 300 ford   explorers over my 18 months there and i came into  the office one day and had over 300 messages on my   my phone after taking a weekend off and it was  customers freaking out and i realized that this   is probably a bit more than i this is this is  it's time and and it that i had been nurturing   that i had passed on two movies that had come to  me during the time i was there because i wanted to   commit to to the family that that brought me a job  and provided me a very good living working there   and an opportunity but it was the it was the fire  debacle with the ford explorers that was the end   for me that's when i turned in my uh my name plate  and turned over my sales books and said it's i'll   give you two weeks and they said we don't do that  here you know we don't and that's just a policy   because they don't want you taking customers in  case you sell cars elsewhere which i never did but   i that's why i left i was that was it was time and  i stepped right into a great film that i did with   my father and uh never looked back and that was in  1998 99. have you ever thought about taking that   story of working for the car dealership working  for galpin and turning it into a screenplay   i've thought about turning my experiences into  working in the car sales business many times   um there was a great film done years ago called  suckers which shows the dark side of a dealership   now the cool thing about a dealership in gallpin  is a first class organization i mean they're   the best in the world at what they do but there's  still the the people that work there that make it   interesting the family runs a tight ship they're  the best in the business they sell more cars than   anybody but you still have the riffraff's and i  say that with with with fun because what i what   i learned is in lou brown's class he said nobody  sells cars for a living because they said i want   to sell cars for a living people if you think  about it everybody who sells cars didn't grow   up single and sell cars they failed at something  else they they went through a divorce they they   had hardships they lost to business and and it  was so true i remember in our class that we had   18 people graduate 35 of us started everybody else  had a story about a career that failed or a job   that closed down or a divorce or a circumstance  so you have these unbelievable people from all   walks of life from all nationalities all different  classes of financial and background and pedigree   but there was a film called suckers that i  watched and it it was so scary on the nose   when it came to the business of the  business that i thought you can never   you're never gonna touch that so i developed a tv  series that when i was working with david madden   at fox i got very excited about i was developing  tv shows for fox when david was there and um   everybody loved the concept they thought it was  great but you'll notice there's a reason that   car sale shows are not on tv and that's because  the number one sponsorships of your ad dollars   are usually car sales car manufacturers  you know you've got mazda you got buick   you got honda you got chevy you got kia it's  endless and they take those prime time slots to   show families what they could be driving so if you  are going to tell the true story of the business   you're not going to get those ad dollars  so i found through some really high up   connections in in television sales broadcasting  and decision makers that you're not the first   who's come with the idea it's a great idea that we  can't touch because that's where our dollars come   from so but now that there's a streaming ability  i should recircle that you know that's something   worth thinking about because you know if you're  doing a show on netflix you're not worried about   selling cadillac commercials this is off topic a  little bit but then glenn gary glenn ross was okay   wall street wolf of wall like so it's okay to see  one sector of sales yeah but that was in car sales   right it's it's the fact that  buick if you watch a network show   watch this as us i know you're probably doing what  i do and skipping through your commercials on dvr   i guarantee you a third of the ads you see on  any show are going to be from car manufacturers   if you show a show that shows the dark side of  that business how do you get a car company to   pay for ads of that show you're going to have a  hole in the advertising but you're right but those   were films glengarry gun ross was a great film  wolf of wall street great film but wall street   is its own thing they're not buying ad dollars  they're just you know pulling the strings of our   globe any way you like but i i just thought of it  as we're sitting here talking is you know you can   do series for amazon you can do them for netflix  you can do them for all sorts of different outlets   that don't require ad dollars coming in so  maybe it's time to dust off some of those and   and it's also nice because you can kind of  cross some lines and push the envelope on those   platforms too you could do an ensemble thing  like with crash where you you focus different   different stories people getting ready to go to  his training class anyway best thing i ever had   happen is i remember taking a family of six  i remember taking a very nice conservative   family of sex on a test drive in a uh i forgot i  think was the wind star ford windstar family van   and i remember the father was driving and  the mother was sitting and i'm sitting in   the next rows with all the kids and  all of a sudden the father he's doing   like 55 60 miles an hour down to poverty  boulevard he looks up slams on the brakes   and what happened was one of the salesmen  had taken a nap in the back of the windstar   and woke up during the test drive and father's  driving all of a sudden this guy with his   hair all disheveled it could have been a  porter or somebody popped up from the back   i mean that's kind of that happens at dealerships  i mean you're dealing with crazy people walks like   they're party animals i've partied with you know  poison guns and roses motley crew and van gaal and   all in the same night with charlie sheen on the  side and i will tell you the people that work at   car dealerships they can drink them all under the  table i kid you not that's a whole different breed that's awesome sorry no that's really funny that's  really funny that's a great story without naming   names can you tell us a story about how a studio  took was it your script or one of your ideas which   time um i i'm really a big proponent on protecting  your work i will go on record to say don't waste   your 20 or 30 doing wga west it's a waste of  time doesn't do any good um it's not going to   do what you want it to do spend the extra 25 and  do it with the usco the u.s library of congress   u.s copyright office is what that  stands for the process is just as easy   the copyrights last forever not five years  copyrights cover your legal expenses to defend   the fact that you got ripped off and as we're  young and naive coming up in hollywood we tend to   really love to share our work with people and i  always tell people don't you dare send a script   to anybody until it's finished and copy written  because it's too easy the person you're sending   it you could steal it the person that you sent it  to could send it to a friend who needs an idea or   hey i'm thinking about getting into screenwriting  do you have any scripts laying around i can look   at and kind of use as a model the easiest thing  to do for a new writer is to look at somebody   else's work and just copy it what happens i've  been ripped off over the years i actually had a   script get produced by a studio who i'll not  name they actually went out made the movie it   was a 9 million dollar indie low budget film that  they they put the money behind to make and they   were dumb enough not to even change the title  of the film or the character names so i guess   whoever brought it to them took my work and  just put their name on a cover sheet and just   did it as is i gotten wind of this when they  were in post and what you're supposed to do   when you get ripped off is you let the film come  out like let it get on the books and let the   trailers start hitting and then that that monday  before the friday is when you drop your bomb   because they are so vested in this with the 20  million in p a or whatever it is they're gonna   work out a deal with you and instead stupid here  knew somebody who knew somebody who worked at the   studio when i heard it was in post-production  i made noise about it and then the film just   disappeared it never came out it was never  finished but they indeed um my friend got   me a copy of the script there was a polish on the  script but they kept the names the same they kept   the title the same i go on imdb it's still there  unreleased 15 years later but uh it's just kind   of funny this movie got made that never never even  got finished no release so that was one i've had   agencies uh take projects and give them  to show runners days after we meet on them   sometimes hours after i've had a project that  was packaged by a major agency and an 07 when the   crash hit my investors backed out we were three  weeks away from rolling film and you know when the   the 07 recession hit my investors had to back out  so the project never got made and then weirdly   enough two years later the packaging agent got a  new client who shot pretty much the same script   wound up making it into sundance and doing  quite well and at least they changed the title   they changed the character names and the best  part was they changed the opening scene but the   rest of the movie was pretty much in step so you  know i don't make noise about that stuff anymore   i've learned and that's probably why  i become an independent filmmaker   if i have an idea i'm passionate about i'm not  sending it to you i'm just going to go make it   that's where i've gotten is i just don't share  my work with anybody if something i believe in   and want to do it stays in-house and we'll do  it so that's usually how a lot of people do it   if they feel their ideas been stolen they wait  till the week of well you'll often hear about a   film that comes out and you'll hear writers are  making noise they said their idea was taken and   that's usually when the film is coming out and  what happens is you get the studio or the network   so vested in the project they've completely paid  the entire process now they're going through the   marketing and pa and they've committed a  good year a year and a half to the project   and then all of a sudden it's coming out and you  know it's not common but it's not rare where you   hear this movie's coming out and there's a couple  of writers who say that they were ripped off and   more often than not those stories disappear and  go away and i think if you're able to prove it   i always say you know you have to take copious  notes i always say i have a backup email address   so anytime you send a script to somebody  send it to another address you have and   keep those things print them out save them on  a cloud so you have a track record if you send   a script to somebody you have a conversation with  somebody keep a journal hey i spoke to this agent   at this agency on this day about this actor  and this project because you know it's just   if you're gonna ever make noise that you were  ripped off you have to have you have to have   chapter and verse copious notes on everything  that that you've done or there's just no   you know ideas don't cut in anymore you  have to show that there was an interaction   well it's kind of like the guys that pointed  the finger at zuckenberg for ripping off   facebook i mean they still probably got  two three four hundred million dollars   it was an undisclosed settlement but they were  able to prove this guy took their platform and did   something else with it and that you have to think  of it the same way you have to have the blueprints   for your work you have to have detailed journal  you have to have your communications and when   they were what they were and who they were with so  yeah and copyrighted with the library of congress   so was that is that true that it's easier for  hollywood to just deal with the lawsuit than pay   i think everybody likes dealing with a lawsuit  than going through the the painstaking uh it   seems everybody today wants the easy way out uh  it's easy to rip off things it's too easy to take   advantage i know a very prominent producer who  since passed away so i'm gonna tell the story   without mentioning a name you know he found a  script he was he was a very successful producer   and he had been nominated for an oscar 3  and found a script from an unknown writer   who wasn't in a wga or anything and basically  worked out a deal to pay the guy peanuts and   wound up becoming a very successful trilogy and  you know just bought and sold the script over and   over until he got it where it needed to go and you  know it's it just seems like hollywood's kind of   copying itself anyway i mean that's what it does  right every story has been told it's how we tell   it you know shark movies are big right now let's  make a shark movie football movies are big right   now let's do a football movie i mean you know i  we capitalized on that with great iron gang you   know we had we are marshall yet invincible  yet we are giants we're facing the giants   yeah friday night lights it started it so  you had this movement of football movies   and it's no different i mean that's just what they  do incidentally what's interesting is the same guy   who took that script for peanuts it turned out  admitted to me later he was trying to make red   iron gang with another studio and he never had the  rights to do it so it goes to show you you know   it's people will just easily take an idea and run  with it and yeah he never had the rights to do it   you know how do you feel when somebody rips  off your work it's i guess the old saying is   imitation is the greatest form of flattery but  when you're reading the front page of the trades   and a big star is attached to a project that  you walked into an agency or a network you know   my dad always talks about how he had brought in  a uh a script back in the in the early 70s called   special weapons assault tactics and was told  that's not for us and then you know years later   so i uh i learned you know be careful with your  product but how does it feel when you're ripped   off it it it hurts because you have that it's  almost you know it's like if you've ever walked   into your house after it's been robbed it's the  ultimate it's the ultimate betrayal it's the   ultimate form of of uh you know it's a violation  i don't know why somebody can't just say hey   kid you wrote a script it's pretty good the idea  is there we want to take it and work we're going   to pay you i mean just the deception that happens  with these things and i i can't emphasize enough   that you have to i mean it's it feels empty you  look at that time and you most writers especially   write things on spec because one day wouldn't  it be great and then one day you have a library   of scripts that you can look back and say you  have these 10 scripts but each script takes time   whether you're a fast writer or slow writer i know  people that spend three months on a screenplay   i know people spend 10 years on a screenplay  i know somebody's actually under 30th year on   the same script i cannot imagine if that got  ripped off i mean 30 years think about it so   i tend to take things well that i tend to take bad  news well so i didn't get all wrapped up in it i   just okay lesson learned chalk it up as a life  lesson and move on did you get any compensation   for a chain i never got compensated there are  three projects that i did that i created that got   taken um one was produced into a film that  never came out the other one went into pretty   hardcore development at a major network with  a big star attached it never never did come   um there was another one that it was basically we  had a pretty good timeline and proof that there   was there was a ripoff um and what was interesting  is the the the institution the studio whatever you   want to call it that did the ripping off had also  optioned another project from us previously so   what they basically did is they took intellectual  property that they had optioned from us   and put it into another project a storyline  into another project that they already greenlit   totally separate they were going to make  that anyway they were hoping to make ours   ours didn't really come to fruition so they  kind of grabbed some stuff and threw it in there   we hired the best of the best lawyers and they  were unbelievable in how they structured this   case and their timelines and at the end of  the day nobody wants to go to court nobody   wants to sue anybody i'm a firm believer  in the blacklist i know people and i don't   mean the script side i'm talking about people  saying we're not going to work with him because   and it just got to a point where you know other  deals other options were made hey you know so do   you get paid for it no sometimes if it's handled  in a certain way and i think right you could   possibly uh you could you could entertain another  deal or two with with a with an an institution   that would admit maybe they wronged you or were  upset you felt wronged you know optioning another   piece of property for two or three years isn't  uncommon i guess if you play your cards right   basically what happened is they just said look  you know all right we did what we did and you guys   want to go through a lot we're going to bankrupt  you in lawsuits it's going to take 12 years today   do you have something else we can option and  you know they're not going to make it but you   know but that's how they do it i mean that's  how that's how it worked on the third on the   first on the studio one yeah yeah they you know  they'll come up with creative ways to make you   feel or hey why don't we give you a development  deal no not to pay anything they just take a few   gratuitous meetings with you over the course of  two years and you feel like you got yours you know   interesting it's it's weird you know it's it's  a deceptive business and i think that's what's   driven me i'm i don't i don't ever want to thumb  my nose at hollywood proper i've had a lot of   success in it and thank god for it and hope to  work again in it i don't count on it and i don't   care if i don't i went real rogue independent  in what i do because i just got tired of dealing   with a machine i got tired of developing you know  fall in love with an idea put it together whether   you've got eight dollars or eight hundred thousand  dollars and go do it what's stopping you you know   i mean the next film i'm doing we're starting in  in a couple months and it it started because a   group of us were sick and tired of sitting around  during covet and we figured we can toss 20 20 in   the garbage bin like a lot of people are or we can  show something we have something to show for it   and it was kind of like we know two guys with  two great cameras and a sound guy we got actors   that want to play i got a great writer who's got  a ton of material i'll direct produce and cut   the thing for free i don't care let's make this  year something and then it turned into something   where investors have gotten involved in better  actors and bigger actors and crew and now all of   a sudden we have a real movie we're gonna go make  and it happened because we just got sick and tired   of sitting around and started putting things  into motion we never asked anybody for money   that was the last thing we just wanted to  get busy and have something to show for 2020.   and the next thing you know we're in  full-blown pre-production on a show   you know so i think i like that there's  no development there's let's do it   but how does a writer protect themselves from  getting taken advantage of even though they   have that they they really want that thing to  pay off for them again i think i think the most   important thing a writer can do is obviously you  have to copyright your material and that includes   the treatments it includes the script and i think  you have to take you have to take notes of where   projects go um you know i look back at some of  the projects i had ripped off and if i had just   taken better notes just documented who what when  where and why i could have stopped them from being   taken or at least gotten to partake in its success  or failure from a producer or creator standpoint   and i just think it's too easy to you know  be people when we're coming up we want   so bad to have our work accepted we want to make  it so bad whether we're an actor or a writer   the problem is if you're an actor and you want to  make it you can audition you can go out and meet   people and do your thing but your only calling  card as a writer is to write and unfortunately   everything starts with the script you don't  have an actor attached you don't have a producer   a director a set financing until what's  the script it's all about the script   so you're kind of kicking off the whole project  and the most valuable thing that somebody can take   is a script it's the only thing they can take they  can't take an actor they can't take a director   they can't steal a craft service person  they're going to steal the script   so you have to really think that you're really the  the lifeblood of a project you are the inception   of the project and what you have is gold to some  people so you have to protect it you have to you   have to take as much time as you've taken to  write your script you have to think i have to   copyright it i have to copyright every bit of  intellectual property that surrounds it whether   it's your beat sheets your breakdown your you  know your boards whatever it is you just you   got to protect everything and then you have to  really really be clear on who you've given it to   why you're giving it to me and i also be careful  what you're giving it to you know hungry writers   i can't tell you how often well this this producer  reached out to me on you know facebook and uh you   know they i sent them three of my scripts i never  heard from them again it's like well okay did you   look up who the producer was well you know he he  had this ac credit on a film two years ago and   you know look if if a real producer wants to work  with you they're not going to find you on facebook   usually now i understand that as a way to find  people but how did they find you on facebook did   they read something else you wrote and facebook  was the only way to find you or were they just   trolling for people in the writing forums and  the writing you know uh what are they called the   the writing forms of facebook and that's where  a lot of these people get taken advantage of   it's really easy all you have to do is dm  one writer who's writing something on the   board that you think is intelligent gullible  vulnerable and hungry enough and just say hey   uh here's who i am i'm interested in what you got  i'd love to read your work and nine times out of   nine they're probably going to send it you know  screen cap those conversations get this guy's name   look them up start a file on everybody you send  stuff to you should have a file on every project   and a file on everybody who sees whatever project  you have and that's a big way to protect yourself   a dossier is that what that is i've heard  new words that's what the government does   what is there there's the dossier and then  there's the uh what's the other one oped i've   heard these new words since the last four years  i never knew before and in the reverse how can   someone who's been asked to read their script  vet a producer so seeing just like one credit on   imdb with no picture no contact info very little  online presence is that someone who you should   really be sending your work to i i always think  it's important for people to vet on the other   side is is you know we've talked about before the  easiest thing to do if you're a person who has a   business card that says you're a producer but you  haven't physically produced uh the easiest thing   to do is go to something like facebook and find  a writer's form and find people that are you know   all you have to do is join it's free to join  and you get to see the trends and habits and   some of the idiosyncrasies of the people that  are on that site and you start realizing their   vulnerabilities their hopes their fears their  concerns and where they are careless i find it   amazing that people will actually say here's my  latest script and throw it on a facebook forum   and you go oh my god or a guy will say hey i just  did these 10 pages last night would love feedback   okay um you know i think that's careless um but  you know producers are predatory by nature and   sorry but they are that you have something they  want so i think you need to protect your work   i think you need to think twice before you just  shotgun your material out i think you need to look   up people i still there's a lot of writers that i  respect that i know and i still try to collaborate   with that'll say oh i heard from a producer i  sent this guy my work he reached out to me and i'm   looking i'm gonna go have you even oh no i know he  doesn't have an imdb presence or he doesn't even   have but he's you know and it's like not that imdb  is the end-all be-all but good lord if somebody   has got a history in the business of being  legitimate that's certainly one way to better them   and i just it's mind-boggling how how often people  don't uh take the time they don't want to hear the   truth so they just they just shotgun it hoping  that this could be the one and i think they   have to be very careful hence you know getting  your your projects ripped off several times of   your career because you're not you know careful  and i gave my projects to people that were real   and legit but i didn't protect myself and they  know when you don't so even if someone's vetted   doesn't necessarily mean that you're safe just  because somebody's vetted doesn't mean that   you're safe i mean you know easiest thing to  do is to get a script that's not copy written   then have the power to make something and get it  from somebody who has no cloud or juice or voice   or word uh in the industry and if that's the case  then what what do they have to stand on if they're   not protected you know so what if someone says  well then maybe i just shouldn't trust anybody   then why even then why even bother doing this  well you shouldn't you shouldn't trust don't trust   anybody what you should do is protect your work  as we talked about before with the you know united   states copyright office don't waste your time with  the wga do it with the usco it's the same process   kind of costs a little bit more but it's it shows  people that are in the know that you're serious   it shows that you know how to protect your  work and take copious notes and you should   have a file on each project and you should  have a file on everybody that you send it to   that should be part of it and those  correspondences and if it's a phone call   take notes i talked to shane stanley today  it's october 1st 2020. he said he wanted   me to send a synopsis emailed shane stanley at  this email address the synopsis for this story   waiting for a call back or a phone you know an  email and then when i email her phone back print   it out put it in the file and that way if i go  off and make that movie i've got it it's now the   burden of proof is on me that i didn't rip them  off it's always on the rider to prove that i that   i ripped you off but now all of a sudden if you do  your due diligence it's now on me to show that i   have to now provide all the stuff that i did to  develop the material and that's harder to do do   you do this like in excel or award pages what i  usually do is i have a backup email address like   if i have my company account whatever it is dot  com i have a yahoo account that i don't access or   give out to anybody all it is is my overages it's  every time i email a project to somebody i bcc   it and then that way i have it safe and then when  that person replies i have a folder on my main   of each project so every time i get a hit so  i'm getting i got the send out sent somewhere   else and then i've got the reply and a whole  different other email mask so that way god   forbid one crashes one goes blank or gets hacked  i at least have half the conversation somewhere that's how i do it that's great we've imagined  that you've received your share of screenplay   pitches or you've heard about others pitching  what are some of the wrong ways to pitch what   are some of the wrong ways to reach out to someone  i think there is a right way and a wrong way to   present people your work your screenplays to  approach them i think if you break it down   i think writers need to be just as good if not  better as writing a synopsis or a treatment i   like getting those two page treatments where you  know if it's five acts it's a paragraph per act   a title a log line a brief synopsis and then  the breakdown i think if you can do that and   you can basically summarize what it is you're  trying to say i get i can tell in two minutes   that this is a story i want to read i don't need  to see a script but it's really important that   you know the craft of of writing too because uh  writing is a gift writing is a craft and a lot of   people don't understand the importance of good  storytelling and because they've spent a year   and a half writing a script doesn't mean it's  good and they have to respect a lot of people   get hit with so many scripts that they take it  personally if you don't want to read it and you   know we all have lives we're busy we have business  life personal life social life we have all these   things in our own work life and i always you  know if somebody is kind considerate and they   reach out i always try to say okay i won't look  at a synopsis but only if it's copy written i   need to see the copyright you know registration  receipt i'm not i don't take anything without that   um so make sure you have your work copy written  and be kind and considerate and realizing that   you're you know you're you're not the only person  who has a script that needs red and reading a   script does take people a couple of hours out of  their day and you know how many people do you know   that you don't know that would take two hours out  of the day for a stranger to just read your script   so i just think it's about the presentation  it's about knowing how to write a synopsis or   a treatment that can lure a reader or a decision  maker to want to know more about what you're doing   is really important how often do you receive  cold pitches uh you know it's not that often   um i get i mean i get a lot of inquiries which  i really appreciate i don't mind people asking   i'm an open book you know anybody can email me  info chainstanley.net i mean i don't care it's   how it's done and it's for me um when i just  get an email that's shotgun and i know it's   shocked i even look at it i just you know  i just write back and say i don't accept   unsolicited material and i cc my lawyer i cc  my manager and i write them back and i say hey   you know you sent this to me unsolicited i am not  interested in seeing this this is not how to do it   appreciate it if you have somebody who who reps  you if they want to reach out to my manager or   lawyer that's a different story and i never hear  back from them again that's just the end of it   people who reach out genuinely you know because  i do so much work with the colleges that you know   i'll encounter a writer three years ago and then  they'll write you know and say you know dear shane   you gave a workshop at my class in florida a few  years ago and you know i finished a screenplay   and i really enjoyed your may i send it to you  i always write back and say i'm not going to   read your screenplay right now but if you want to  send me you know copyright everything i go through   copyright everything i need to see that it's been  registered certified copywritten with the usco   once that's done i will gladly look at a treatment  and we can go from there and usually they're   pretty cool about it i don't mind reading those  i don't i'm not going to read scripts i just   don't have the time and i know that's terribly  heady to say but i just don't i'm a slow reader   shane what are the top five reasons you  will reject a screenplay let's say it's   it's well written it's formatted but there's  just something that's not working for you   you know when rejecting a screenplay the first  thing writers should never take it personally   art is nothing but opinion i mean you think  about how many great scripts got made years   after the fact after they were turned down  and rejected by so many other filmmakers   it's about first and foremost it's about the  project connecting with the person you're   sending it to just because i made a movie about  football and had success with it doesn't mean i   want to make another movie about football i also  want to evolve as a filmmaker so what's important   is is that you never take it personally um i  would hope if i do read a script and i think   there's something there that i would at least  write i would always try to make it a point to   write the writer or contact the writer and say  look i gotta be honest with you you're talented   i like what you're doing i know somebody who  i think would appreciate it let me help you   you know i have no problem with that and  one of the writers that i work with who i   use one of my favorites to work with is cj  wally he's the the guy that has group revolution   out of the uk and our relationship kicked  off by reading one of his scripts that was   beautifully done i would never make the movie  i couldn't sell the movie but it didn't mean he   can't write and i i read his words i read his the  his setups i read his you know his character arcs   and i just and i read his theory on breaking  down scripts and doing proper treatments and   synopses and i this guy had it all together and  for me it was like hey dude i love your writing   i have a project i'm gonna do i want you to write  it and then we were able to work together and like   you know we've written several scripts together  and that came because i read a script that i i   would never make but i knew the writer was good  so it's not always about the script i don't think   spec scripts get made much anymore filmmakers have  an idea what they want we have actors that we know   what they want to do we have buyers and sales  agents who we know what they can sell at the   moment and we have an audience trend that you know  right now doing a drama living in an apartment   is not going to sell we have all been locked in  because of covid for six months in our four walls   we want to be outside we want to laugh i don't  want to hear about your problems i don't want   to think about my problems so if we're selling  scripts right now and you're trying to pitch it   better be adventure it better be funny it better  have romance it better get me out on the water i   want it to get me out in the desert i want to go  on travel these are the things that you constantly   have to think about and writers don't writers are  very myopic and that's okay we we get in a box   and it's all about this and you have to realize  there's there's actors there's money that has to   be raised there's directors that have to come  on board there's um teams of people that have   to capture the vision to make this happen and  after all that's said and done is can it be sold   are there those seven trailer moments in  this script that we know we can sell it   is there an uh an output worldwide or is this just  gonna appeal to one place and that's these are   the things that a lot of writers don't think about  the business of the business it's not just whether   your script is good so much of it is about where  is it going to sell you're still selling a widget   are you selling a widget that only appeals to  one out of every 5 000 people or are you selling   a widget that everybody kind of needs and that's  how you have to look at it when making a script   and what are those seven trailer moments  i don't think they're anything specific i   think they're the catch phrases they're those  hero moments if you're telling an actions right   like you take any two-minute super trailer  that you see and you'll see those five to nine   moments that you know are important in the film  they're the the tent poles of the story they're   the catch phrases they're that huge explosion  they're that great moment in the car chase   it's it's the sex scene real quick it's  the action running it's it's those things   and they're not anything consistent but  your story has got to be able to tell   the executives who don't read scripts and don't  know much it's got to tell them that i can sell   this that's all it is it's can i sell it some  of the relationships i have with sales agents   and buyers they don't read the scripts they want  the synopsis they want mock art you know they   want to see a mock poster that me and a writer  make and in two hours on photoshop and say here   here's your kind of idea for the image here's  your here's your log line here's your title   and they'll tell you right then and there yeah i  can sell that that's how these decisions are made   wow so so what why not even forget the treatment  why not just come up with a great poster and log   well i think that's but you still have to have a  script to shoot and finance so ultimately you're   going to need the script um but i think i think  that's all part of the package because so many   people are from the filmmaker side i don't write  as much but if i have a writer who's done a script   i expect the synopsis and the treatment to be as  good if not better than the script it's got to be   because i know there's there's always  three scripts the one you write the one   you shoot and the one you cut okay the  treatment is what you're really selling   overall they executives are not going to read the  script i deal with more executives now they just   want to see they just want a two-page synopsis  and just show me some mock art so i know what   i'm selling and they'll tell you well tell me  in five minutes i can sell it or you're gonna   find somebody else i can't do anything with this  it's not my wheelhouse okay and then we make the   decision do we do we believe in this enough to  roll the dice and struggle and pull teeth and   try to get it somewhere else or do we listen to  people we trust and say this is not the one to do   that's our developmental process it's very quick  we don't go through the years of development or   months it's here's an idea i'll pitch the idea to  my buyers if they like it i say okay they like it   let's do the synopsis and then i get them the  synopsis sometimes with some mock art and then   they'll either say okay the idea is good act  two i can't you can't do this in act two this   this i can't sell tweak it this way and then  they'll go you know in act four can this happen   maybe in act five it's happening too soon or can  you bring the villain in sooner those are the   kind of conversations we have and then it just  the table is set and the writer can go do it   and i the script the spec script is very hard  to sell i think spec scripts are great calling   cards if somebody can write or not found  a tremendous writer through the community   college just this during covid who i take a  lot of pride in i not only got her a manager   she got a job like writing a script for hire  for a very substantial production company and   this is one of my zoom students from the  community colleges that reached out to me   you were asking the right way and wrong way she  reached out to me she had taken three or four of   my zoom classes with a community college lovely  woman very articulate kind no expectations just i   really appreciate it i would love to share my work  with you here's where i want to go in my career   and she's she's an older woman she's like you know  her son's like my age i mean she's been around   and has worked around the industry but never  really flourished as a writer and i finally   said let me know when you're synonymous oh my god  i know somebody who's looking for this so i said   i'm not going to read your script send it to  me i'll send it to somebody who knows this   company and the guy read the script called me  up and goes who is this woman she's really good   and we got her an agent and three weeks later  she actually got a work for hire on a greenlit   film that they green they had greenlit on  the concept and they liked her writing enough   to say you were you were a writer for hire  on this and she's on her last she's on her   second polish on it and they're getting ready  to go into production i think in january   it's greenland how common is that not very but  i say that to inspire because there are ways   and again it came from being kind it came from  being a familiar face it came from somebody who   who reached out with a tender heart and a gracious  heart to understand and respect my schedule and   maybe i didn't want to read it and understood when  i said i don't want to read your script but let me   let me look at the synopsis and then when i was  like there's something here i said i'm going to   send a synopsis to somebody i think would like  this and if they do i'm going to need you to have   a script ready and that's how it went is synopsis  king in this day and age of instant information   and being able to get answers quickly i suggest  that it is definitely something that is put to the   forefront uh going back to people's time and you  know we've developed this instant gratification   generation of you know getting it on the phone  and i'll get you an answer let me ask siri   i think a lot of us have put that into our  workflow um i know what my days are i i hit   the ground i am working by 5 5 30 in the morning  even when i'm not making a movie and my wife   is usually saying all right honey come on it's  getting late you've been you know this is when   we're not doing a movie i just i'm immersed in my  work so taking two hours a day to read a script   it doesn't fit i don't schedule read days so  my my feelings if you want to write and you   want to get seen by filmmakers who are busy and i  suggest you really learn how to build a treatment   besides being a good screenwriter learn how  to do a treatment learn how to do a synopsis   um there is a a web platform based in the united  kingdom called script revolution it was it was   it was created by cj wally and i find if you're a  writer i suggest you go and check out it's a free   site it's it's it's i think you will be blown  away on the the way it breaks down how to write   not only screenplay but the treatment the synopsis  the act breakdowns he's created some you know the   turn and burn which is this really cool theory  and i think once you understand that as a writer   your treatments are gonna flourish which are  going to make people that are in a position of   making movies get more excited about what it is  you're doing and what you're trying to say so   i think the treatment and the synopsis  is so important the script ultimately is   but if i read a great synopsis and a great  treatment i will be more forgiving on the script   knowing where ultimately this could go where  if i just get a mediocre script and it's   okay and done i don't see the vision that  you caught me in a page or two so i'm a   big proponent for the treatment i'm sorry  just real quickly what is the turn and burn   that's a good question that's for him to answer i  mean if you go if you go on the website if you go   on to scriptrevolution.com there is a whole sub  chapter about turn and burn and it's his theory   on how he creates the synopsis and it's a whole  it's a whole map of like 10 different sayings that   he has that i could never relay i don't write  anymore but it all makes sense and when i know   when i've collaborated with him or other writers  that are part of his platform it's it's really   it's really about the developmenting the treatment  develop the treatment so the script process is   is easy it's like as i talked about in my book  the most important thing about filmmaking is the   pre-production time i i work myself to death  during pre-production so production is fun   and easy that's how it's supposed to be you  know pro football players will tell you you work   monday through saturday and you get paid to play  on sunday that's how it should be when you write   that's how it should be when you make a movie  and what they've done at script revolution is   they have basically given you training camp hell  week and practice in the treatment side so the   writing of the script is actually fast efficient  and it's right on point and there's no surprises   and that's what most filmmakers development  executives get concerned about is writers going   down rabbit holes they weren't supposed to go  down going off track if your treatment is in order   everything is it's expected  you're just filling up the pages   with witty dialogue with fun i'll give  you an example working on this film   we developed we've got a we've got a six page  treatment that's the five acts it's the character   breakdown who everybody is what the point of the  show is what's the log line what's the synopsis   we have gotten four acts in seven days there's not  been one surprise except happy surprises because   we all know where this is there's four of us that  are involved in doing the film that are from a   decision-making capacity not one of us have been  thrown a bump a roadblock a speed bump nobody's   been like oh my god what's going on and it was  because the way the treatment was handled going in   it's it's it is so paramount and speaking  of bumps i don't know if you're reading my   mind but i was just going to bring up goosebumps  it's so funny that was the next thing i was going   to say was that r.l stein i guess the creative  goosebumps he talked about how he knows the ending   and he writes this treatment or whatever and  then once he knows the ending then he can go back   and he can fool the audience and it's it's  effortless writing but it's just getting that   that structure in place and i know  and i know in the way that they   do these treatments they often will have 17 blank  pages and start on page 17 and work backwards   it's not uncommon and it's interesting and  there's different ways for it to work for   everybody but it's kind of just basically a way to  think about it and i think once you capture that   whether you're a writer or not you see what he's  doing oh i get it and too many of us in the way i   used to write when i used to try to hack away was  i would just sit there and come up with a title   and write fade in and tell my story sometimes  i got lucky and sold a few scripts i did okay   but as i got older my mind wasn't as fast i wasn't  as creative i had kind of burned a lot of that   creative energy telling stories and then becoming  a filmmaker an editor a producer or director or i   wasn't just sitting for weeks at a time writing so  i learned later in life how important a treatment   is it's it's so important to know what it is  you're going to do and it's great when you can   surprise yourself as a writer but to know where  you're going to know the purpose of each scene   to know the arcs and the back stories that aren't  going to be on the page of each character i think   if you as a creator know all that you'd be amazed  the stories that you can tell it's just it's just   smooth sailing shane we've heard you say send  us treatment we've heard on our side people say   okay i sent them a treatment it was a 20 page  treatment is that okay is that too long oh i   think in first pass i think i think you need to  again be considerate of the reader when i say send   a treatment i would like a title i'd like to know  who it was written by i'd love to see a log line   and then i'd like to see a two-page synopsis give  me a paragraph per act that's it that's all i need   and i could either say yeah i like this i want  to see a script or i could say you know what if   you have a more in-depth treatment breaking down  some things back story on the characters cast size   i'd love to see it that 20 then i would expect  that 10 to 12 to 20 page treatment it's not that   you shouldn't have them i feel when i say you need  to be versed as a writer in writing synopsises and   treatments those are two separate things that  are equally as important because i'm only going   to read a synopsis first i just want to see a page  or two on what you're doing and if that instills   not quite enough interest to see the script but  i'm intrigued enough to say i want to know more   that's when that 20-page treatment or whatever it  is that you've done is important obviously not a   90-page treatment then just send me the script  but you know what i mean it's it's i think the   synopsis is king it's it's just let's let's ignite  that fire spark the interest and if you get that   have the treatment ready but hopefully the  script is there and tight good that was a   great question because it is because some people  send you like a paragraph you're like that's it   you know i always say here's an option should  just be a paragraph per you know treatment is a   paragraph per act and then the breakdowns anything  but a synopsis should be about a page and a half   two pages and and if you need more than that to  tell the story you gotta you gotta relook at your   story it's too confusing it's too it's too long  it's too you know it's too hodgepodgy you gotta   tighten it up what if someone doesn't know the  difference between a synopsis versus a treatment i   think a synopsis versus a treatment a good answer  at least that that i can give and what i see it as   a synopsis is usually a paragraph or two you know  a thousand words or less is kind of it's going to   tell me what this is now a treatment usually  is going to have a log line it's going to have what the tonality is it's going to have  the purpose it's going to have the message   and then it's going to give me five acts and it's  a paragraph or if it's three acts it's gonna be a   paragraph per act and then it's gonna talk about  the characters it's gonna break them down as if   you would see in an actor's breakdown it's gonna  say you know uh karen age 25 comes from humble   comes from humble beginnings loves cats it's got  a wonderful husband you know and those are the   kind of things you don't see in a synopsis  as much as you know karen mid 30s oh i just   added 10 years but i think i think a treatment  is more a real breakdown of developmental notes   tonality purpose where this can go and all the  possibilities like one thing that they do in   in what script revolution teaches is um  alternative endings i always like when they break   something down for me and i've got the five acts  i've got the tonality i've got the this and that   and then all of a sudden it says alternative  endings and it says this first what we went   with and then it gives four or five alternative  endings that are completely different that still   fit and why you could or couldn't use them it's  just really to me it's really fleshing out your   story as a writer and giving people different  different perspectives of how it could go you   know we've all heard about alternative endings and  seeing the fun dvd bonuses where this movie had   three different endings like i understand castaway  had three different endings that they shot   well obviously those were written and that was an  option it was something that was on the table well   the writer gave that gift to the filmmakers and  the filmmakers ultimately decided to go with the   one where he's at four corners and the welder who  he left the package for came up and told him which   way to go and she just went and we never know  if he followed her or not but there were three   endings apparently and i'm sure that the treatment  probably talked about those opportunities   do you think you've run out of ideas you said  just you know as time's gone on just you've told   so many stories and you've made so many films and  things do you think someone runs out of ideas oh   i don't think i would i would hate to think  people run out of ideas if you have found a niche   and you flourished in a niche and done the same  style over and over and over again i think you   got to be careful not to try to become a  one-trick pony um i've done different kind   of films in my career i've done the dramas  i've done the rom-coms i've done the actions   i've done the thrillers i've done the suspense  i've done you know i enjoy the action thrillers   a little bit more as i get older i'm gearing more  toward doing those especially the female driven   action film is really where i'm focusing the next  chapter of my life um adventure romance you know   adventure romance stories are fun too um i think  what's important is to collaborate with people   that inspire you um i don't write anymore but i  know i'm good at ideas and i know that from the   writers that i collaborate with they said oh no  you've given me something i can run with this and   that's all i'm responsible of is all i can say is  hey here's some here's a story i want to tell does   that do anything for you and they either catch the  vision or they don't um i think every story has   been told it's how we tell it that makes it fresh  right i mean you know everybody's seen mob movies   everybody's seen action movies everybody seen  you know the harry met sally knock-offs and the   scream knock-offs i mean it's all been done what  what twist are you gonna put in there what what   originality or flair are you gonna what wrinkle  are you gonna put in the story that's gonna make   audiences engage and not feel that they've seen  this over and over again i think that's important   when you start thinking about the structure of a  story key beats turning points you know i think um   i think you need to keep a reader  engaged i don't think there is a set   time but if you're you know 15 18 20 25 30 pages  in and we still have no idea what's going on   or there hasn't been that you know moment i i  think you kind of need to rethink some things um   you know there's the old saying when you watch a  movie it's that 42 to 46 minute point that usually   kind of becomes a slow burn no matter what the  movie is so i know a lot of writers and filmmakers   try to make sure that point of the film doesn't  lack a spark or an interest because that's a lot   of times where people they're not going to give up  on the film but they tend to get a little restless   it seems a lot of people take a really long time  to get to the point and i think and i've learned   that as a independent filmmaker when you sell  your material it's more about you know we have   to remember this as a business and now in days  with phones and tablets and distractions and   pets and kids and everything else under the sun  going on we're constantly interrupted audiences   when they see your film unless they're really at a  movie theater and truly turn their phones off are   never really 100 immersed in your story there's  always something there's a noise outside there's   a cat knocking over a vase it's a kid who's crying  because he didn't get his way and he's hungry and   you know you have to realize that as a  filmmaker what you're up against and i think   to just kind of lull along to tell your  story it's very rare that you're going to   be able to compete with anything so i think  to be able to throw some twists and turns   to engage your audience into some new layers or  elements or characters or what's the point of this   movie a little sooner than we used to i think  is happening needs to happen more often and i   think a lot of writers are starting to figure  that out so then you wouldn't be working some   of this out in the treatment stage it's once you  actually start the actual screenwriting process   i've gotten to the point now when i work with  writers i tell them it's got a you know it's   it's sadly um there's kind of an 11-minute rule  abroad that we kind of need to know what this   is about what's going on what we're signing up  for in the first 11 minutes of the actual movie   which is going to tell somebody that's got to  happen in the first 12 to 15 pages of the script   um and i don't like telling stories that way but  i've also learned the hard way i've had some some   projects that you know hey if you do this it'll  sell hey if you change this it will it will move   and what i've learned is the faster we get to the  point in our storytelling and i know this goes   against everything from telling great stories of  the old days but we're living in a new time and it   has really gotten to be about get to the freaking  point what am i signing up for early they they   want to know it's like you know give an example in  the film that i just did that's coming out break   even it's about four kids who find 50 million  dollars while scuba diving at a remote island and   we developed this opening and this whole thing and  this back story and why are these kids here and   who are they and what's their relationships and it  was basically yeah we need to find out 50 million   dollars by 12 minutes in it's like well wait a  minute that doesn't come in until page 30. well   it needs to come in about 12 minutes in so you  you have to restructure some things you have to   cut scenes you have to cut backstory because at  the end of the day when you're selling a movie   around the world they're signing up for something  and if you're selling an action film if you're   selling a thriller if you're selling a suspense  story you better get to it because there's too   much competition there's too many things that  are moving fast that'll hold the tension because   it moves so fast that's where that mtv generation  of cutting came from is we don't know how to tell   a good story so we're gonna cut a bunch of stuff  really fast so you're afraid to take your eyes off   the screen and that has now become it's found its  way i think it's found a balance in storytelling   with films a little better but we need to get  to the point and if you look at the older films   uh some of the most of the ones that i grew up  you know cherry it's a fire the black stallion   you know all these enchanting april you're  looking like 25 28 35 minutes in until you   really kind of have an idea if you watch  the black stallion they don't in introduce   mickey mickey rooney's character until about i  think 48 minutes in you know the kids alone at   the island for 30 minutes are crying out loud then  he gets home and he's got to reintegrate in school   and then all of a sudden the horse runs away and  then he goes on this trip to try to find the horse   and then there's your co-star and it was also  that way with on golden pond they didn't bring   you know jane fonda in until 25 minutes in  so i don't think those play as much anymore   not saying the films don't hold up is great cinema  but we want to meet the players we want to know   what the game is a lot quicker now or even the  stepford wives like i mean that was like the   original the original one yeah i mean just long  driving scenes with the music the soundtrack and   yeah there was something comforting about that i  don't know if that would work today well you know   quentin did it in once upon a time in hollywood  i think he really exploited the driving scenes   but we're looking at the back of brad pitt and  leonardo dicaprio's head so you know that makes   it a little different but what i try to tell the  independent filmmakers if you're not getting brad   or leo as your stars and i don't even get them  as my stars um your your international buyers   want to get to the point and we're at a point now  where we you know we are able to lock picture and   we don't make different cuts for different markets  or parts of the globe we've kind of learned that   what what works comfortably everywhere you know  there's 54 territories that we sell to around the   globe 100 what is it 170 countries and in that you  you have 54 territories and you want to try to do   something that's going to appeal to everybody and  it's hard to please all the people all the time   but getting to the point quickly is one that you  can really help sell that movie a lot better if   people know what they're signing up for in the  first 15 20 minutes tops well it's interesting   because people seem to get upset when we say that  or we interview people and they say you know if a   script isn't good by 10 pages in most people will  stop reading it and so then the comments are well   you're not giving it a chance right people just  don't have the patience anymore you know again   i hate to revert to it you go back to i mean  look at close encounters of the third kind   brilliant film that is a slow burn i think if that  movie was made today that would be a lot different   not taking anything away from steven who did  a great job writing the script it was based   on an experience he had as a kid and a great  job directing it but you're going to tell me   that movie today would play at that pace i don't  think so and you're right a lot of people you're   not giving it a chance and most readers will say  god if it doesn't get me by page eight i'm done   i think you kind of have to you know the  executives you know there was a trend where   all the executives are saying you got to find that  hook it's got to be edgy you know i want it to be   edgy and grab me you know shake me by my by my  lapels by page eight you know and so everybody   came up with the edgy crazy opening that just  shocked everybody i don't think i don't think   shock and awe is what make people watch a whole  movie people want to be drawn in they want to   care about characters they want to go along for  a journey and they know what they're signing up   for but you have to make that journey interesting  you want to put some bends in the road you want   to have some interesting things that they're going  to pass and i think you need to occasionally give   them a flat tire throw a rod in the engine  they're going to have to get out grab their   bags hitchhike find a ride you know i think i just  think that's where we are now people are just so   bored i mean you look at twitter twitter has  an auto feed now i don't even i can't even go   on it anymore because the second i try to read  what somebody tweeted it automatically scrolls   and i can't find the tweet i was reading and  there's no way to stop that that's just how   we're getting our information now and there's we  gotta find a balance in storytelling but that is   kind of what what's working right now and it's  frustrating it's a hard pace to keep up with how do you write good dialogue i think the  best dialogue comes from the best listeners   i had an absolute crash course in writing dialogue  years ago i used to write with charlie sheen i don't care if they don't credit him and the  sitcoms he's been in as a writer i know who's been   writing the dialogue i worked with him for three  years i i never read or heard better dialogue from   anybody than that came from him that he wrote and  i asked him one day i used to be really good at   writing scene direction my dialogue was flat it  wasn't interesting it wasn't engaging it was an   edgy or seat and i asked him one day when we were  writing the way we worked is we'd set it up and i   would write the scene direction and he would do  the dialogue unless you know it was some basic   stuff it was easy and i finally said to him i said  where do you get this encyclopedia of incredible   dialogue i've never heard anybody with it before  and he said you just listen he said you know   when this was working these aren't working and  if these aren't working you can't absorb what's   happening and how people interact and find those  gems he said most most of the things that i write   that people like i heard at a party i heard at  a barbecue i heard at an airport i heard while   i was pumping gas he said you know i'll get out  and pump gas and i'll hear a couple bickering in   the car next to me at the pump and he said that's  gold he goes that is gold man he said you know   and this is before everybody had phones we were  we weren't listening to them we were doing this   so i find the best the best advice to  writing a dialogue is listen put yourself   in a character's position that you've created  you know it goes back to the old um i think   keeping an audience interested in good dialogue i  think also the problem is a lot of people try to   outwit themselves with dialogue they think they've  got to use verbage or words that people don't use   they got to show you how smart they are i think  we've talked about it before it's like the drummer   that overplays everything to show look how good my  chops are and it's not about that it's it's about   it's about making things sound organic and that's  a lot of things that the actors have to understand   too is you know they're acting or are they  truly listening and responding with the work   but i think the best dialogue comes from the  best listeners and the people that know how to   implement those words that they've discovered over  the years and new in new arenas i mean obviously   you're not going to be pumping gas at a gas  station and you're a husband and wife every script   you write is not going to be about a husband and  wife pumping gas at a gas station so where else   can you implement that could that be a film like  sahara where matthew mcconaughey and penelope cruz   are walking across the desert or you can put some  of that bickering in different situations but it's   how you use it how it inspires you to go down  different paths that's how i've i i learned   from him to to write better dialogue i'm still not  very good but i know i i know good dialogue when i   hear it and i'm good at adjusting dialogue when i  get it and i it's about listening and now people   are on phones so you can just hear one side or one  side and i don't think people realize or they care   how well you can hear them and how dialed in  everybody no pun intended to the people are   to what i mean i've heard some major arguments  major personal and i'm like i don't think this   person realizes i can hear them halfway across  the store but that's gold too it's gold and it's   even better when they're when they're on speaker  phone so you do get to hear all of it or they're   the receivers up so loud but you're right i mean  sometimes you'll hear one half of the conversation   and sometimes that could be better because you're  able to imagine i mean can you imagine if it was   hey harold you didn't take the trash barrels in  and that's what the whole fight's about but you're   only hearing harold's side can you imagine what  you can create mod is yelling to him about i mean when you were working at the car lot did it did  you pick up anything about dialogue i realized   that's not why you were there but if i'm coming  to look at a car you know i'm probably going to   be hesitant i'm probably going to be like i don't  want this guy to sell me anything but i do need   a car but i don't want to let him know that sure  so i'm going to be very selective with what i say   i learned as i said when the owner of galpin  had said come sell cars he said you'll learn   more about life than you've ever known and it'll  be the education that you lacked he wasn't he   wasn't kidding you become a good listener because  you have to overcome all objectives you have to   address every concern and need that a customer has  so how does that happen it happens by listening   and i always i it wasn't dialogue lines i don't  think and i have a very retentive memory if i hear   something i remember it um there wasn't anything  said in those 18 months i worked there that stood   out but it was mannerisms it was quirks it was  character flaws or or neat things about people   that i that i still to this day will implement  in my characters the way a husband and wife   interact it's not about what's said it's about  how it's said it's about the posture it's about um   the the 45 year old son who's with the 70  year old parents buying the ford taurus today   and you realize the parents have a gambling  addiction they're getting a car to drive to vegas   every other week but the 45 year old son  still lives at home to help supplement the   the overhead so they can afford to maintain their  lifestyle and the kids kind of a deadbeat too   i mean there's all sorts of and then you look  at that and you go well that's that's a story   you know you got this retired this retired milk  man and his wife who ran a salon and now they   are addicted to going to vegas every well what  else are they doing when they go to vegas that   we don't know about you know and then your minds  are what do they see on that trip to vegas um   you know it's the the lotto winners i sold i  sold to a few lotto winners that was interesting   i actually had a salesman i worked with who  had won 24 million dollars in the big lotto   and he left his wife and two and a half years  later he was at the point selling cars with me   and you want to talk about like having it all  and losing it and you know friends who abandoned   him when the money was gone and he said yeah you  know it's funny my wife still has her 10 million   you know and here i am selling cars trying  to make trying to make a living living in a   one-bedroom apartment you know and he was the  one who left her and was horrible to her yeah   you see a whole bunch of really interesting um  but that two years sorry to interrupt but that   two years was probably very fascinating  it was fascinating as i said i'm still   very close to the family that that gifted me that  opportunity the bachmanns i am still very close to   some of the salesmen that i worked with a lot you  know sadly some of them have perished um you know   some of the people that were in that sales class  i took patrick wellman just died six months ago i   found out and stuart sank who sold with me and i  got the most character stories out of the anybody   in the world passed uh these would be who i worked  with and i i was very close to and um it was   amazing uh just the people the experiences the the  encounters of just walking out having a cigarette   and encountering a guy whose car is in for an oil  change and that 20-minute exchange you have with   this guy those conversations will live with you  forever but you don't have to sell cars to do it   you can you can drive an uber you can work at  a restaurant as a waiter you can work anywhere   most of the encounters that i've had  in my life that i write about are about   personal experiences or exchanges or encounters  that i've had anywhere but it's funny you bring   up the car years because that was my job  five six days a week i'd spent those eight   to twelve hours a day at the dealership  dealing with no two days were ever the same   fighting between you know salesmen for a customer  or customer you know there's an old saying and   buying cars is all buyers are liars and it  was about trying to i learned something um   we used to have a salesman there that sold ungodly  amounts of cars and made ungodly amounts of money   and i used to say to him what's your secret and he  says you just got to remember all buyers are liars   and they're telling you one thing because  they think they can have an edge and the   secret to successfully selling cars is giving  buyers they got to trust you they got to like   you and want to deal with you but he said  you have to let them think they have control   but they really don't have an ounce of it  and it's almost like being a film director   actors love to be directed and controlled but  they also like to think that they they're the show   they're and as a good director will help steer  them and let them think that they can run with it   and you got to be able to rein them in without  them knowing you're being reined in it's an art   it's a dance and it's that way selling cars um  but it taught me how to negotiate selling cars and   negotiating four five six times a day sure taught  me how to go out and raise money sure taught me   how to negotiate with contracts and actors and  agents it's the same thing how much for how much   right so that's everybody should go sell  cars and you'll become a better filmmaker   what's the best screenplay someone's ever  submitted to you best screenplay somebody's ever   submitted to me wow um i've been fortunate to read  some good ones i mean um you know i got a script   i got a script called chase the sunset from  cj wally years ago that that's what turned   me on to work with him it was just again it  was a film i couldn't really make but it was   just it was just really good and then i was  sent a script by nicole fair fair brother a while back and it was a love story called the  one and it was just a beautiful pure coming-of-age   story for a married woman who realized she  had she was in a situation that wasn't healthy   it wasn't an abusive relationship it was a  loving marriage it was complacent marriage   but it was a dream of hers to be a writer  and she wanted to put a toe in the water   in the writing world and how her writing was  accepted and the doors that opened to her and it   was told from a woman's point of view it was just  a beautiful story and it was you know occasionally   you find these gems that come your way that you  don't expect they're happy surprises where you   you read it and you say god someday it would be  great to have the power to just give everybody   the middle finger and make it and who cares if  it should or couldn't be done and when i say it   can't be done or i couldn't do it it's because  we have people that we're beholden to that write   checks to make movies they expect films that are  going to be marketed and marketable and going to   work in certain markets that pay a certain amount  and you just know sometimes reading a script   this is not going to work but boy it's you know  sometimes you try to work with the writer and say   can we finagle it a little here and finagle  a little little there and see if we can and   sometimes the writers are so hell-bent on the  vision of the story they say no and they say   i don't care if it never gets made it's going  to stay the way it is or never get made and i   i have a lot of respect for that i really do  um those those two were real special when you   say give the middle finger and i realized you're  just using this metaphor but what does that entail   like what does it really mean are you really are  there people actively stopping the production or   no what it means is is you know i'm very fortunate  i i work with backers who don't read scripts they   don't know or care who's in them they don't ask um  it's usually a synopsis a page a paragraph this is   what it's about here's some teaser artwork  to kind of give you an idea of the world   and we'll usually just photoshop a one sheet  and say this is the idea this is it how much   do you need this much okay and they trust me  and know that this is something that'll sell   around the globe and that they're gonna they're  gonna make their investment back hopefully plus   and it makes sense um when i say give the middle  finger giving the middle finger would be knowing   i'm asking an investor to sign up for something  that the chances are very slim they're going to   see their money back because it's not a marketable  product and also knowing that my sales reps   fortunately we have a good relationship they'll  take it on but i know i've kneecapped them because   i've given them this as a story to sell you know  what i mean there's there's that well you know   okay well you're gonna kill half the territories  are not gonna buy it and instead of getting fifty   thousand dollars for a three-year license in in  spain they're going to give you eight thousand   dollars for five years is that really what  you want well that's not fair to your investor   but hey it's art and you know when i say to give  the middle would be nice to be in a position where   i don't care i'll write the check or i have an  investor we've had so much success they're begging   for a loss maybe this is the one you know and it  does happen it's it's it's hard nobody wants to   go into fail but there are some stories that are  some of the best scripts i've ever written and it   doesn't matter who stars in them or how who does  them you just know that this is not a marketable   product but god it's good it's a story that  needs to be told especially when you come   out of something like cobid we've all we don't  as we talked about we don't want drama right   now dramas are tough cells abroad you know  they're really tough and they're tough anyway   but right now they're extra tough but the  best the best scripts i've written are drama dramas are tough to sell because of everything  you know we've experienced especially now they're   they're especially they're especially tough but  i'd say the best scripts i've ever read are dramas   would you consider making a feature length  film for ten thousand dollars right now   i've made a feature length film for ten thousand  dollars i've made a a 48-minute pilot for 500   uh budget's never an issue for me um i think we  talked about recently uh coming out of this year   and what a horrible disappointment it's been i  think for everybody um licking our wounds you   know the great losses we've had i think it sadly  started with kobe and then neil pert from rush and   then just went into covet and just crashed and  burned and just kept burning um uh yeah we're   at that point where i think the next one uh just  to keep the risk factor down and just to get out   and shake the dust off i mean we're not going  to spend 10 grand but we're going to keep the   budget low and go out and have some fun i would do  something for 10 grand tomorrow absolutely i would i hope i elaborate on that and i just it's a  yes or no yeah of course i mean that's where   you know that's where i started you  know my first my first short was   i was told i'd have 25 000 to make it and by  the time we rolled camera i had five grand   you know what happened to the  rest of the money oh you know   [ __ ] you know oh i got 25 grand i'll give you  25 grand let's go make this and well i've got five okay so is that your litmus if they tell  you to subtract what like 70 percent   i don't work that way anymore i was  young and it was my first directory   director job and you know i had a script and  it was with uh a group of people i wanted to   work with and somebody came to me and said i  want to finance you know one of your projects   and i was like great and they said i'll give  you 25 grand and to me that was a lot of money   i knew what i could do with 25 grand and we we  went the first day and i was told after we were   two hours in oh by the way i was only able to  come up with five grand oh i still gave them the   same film they would have gotten for 25 but you  know i still got an academy award-nominated actor that's great i did it for five yeah so i'm  all for those no-budget films i love it   what's the lowest budget you would consider i  i never consider a budget i to me look you're   either going to get paid or you're not i don't do  shorts because they take as much time and energy   they just they're just longer on the screen you  still have to pre-produce them you still have to   cast them you still have to hire a crew  you stop feed people you still have to get   locations you still have to put gas in cars so  you know the first the first thing i ever did   i did a 46 minute pilot for 500 bucks and somebody  came to me once and said you did that for 500   it's 48 minutes why don't you make a  90 minute movie for a thousand dollars   and i wound up getting like 10 i think 10 or 12 to  do it but we did it and it was fun and um you know   you grow i mean you make your projects to grow  but sometimes the right thing comes along and   when you get to the point you are in my life where  where i'm at it's you're there you're gonna make   money doing this or you're not are you doing it  for the money don't do them if you're doing them   because you want to stay relevant you're doing  it because you want to keep the muscles tone   because you believe in something or someone  or you just want to like right now we've been   indoors for five and a half months i i'll go  pay to work right now i mean i just want to   get out of the house and yell action and cut  and argue with an actor and yell at a dp about   something or a pa for wearing a red shirt i  don't care you know for me it's just i mean   i've literally been sitting on my ass for five  and a half months now we've been very productive   but i still have been sitting on my ass for  five and a half months so do i want to sit   at home and not make money or do i want to go  out and have some fun with people i care about   and create and have something to show for the  year so there's there's no limits on budget or   any of that for me it's just go how much you got  what do you want to make let's do it that's how i   work what are some of the things that independent  filmmakers skip over thinking oh i don't need to   spend a lot of money on that but actually that's  dangerous for them to do that you know i always   say there's five things that really make a film  look low or no budget and it's it's cinematography   it's the sound it's the actors you choose it's  the editing and it's the locations and if you   can step up in those five arenas and get the best  that you can and then really try to get better   you're gonna you're gonna have a project that  is just a step above you know i spent a lot of   years judging different film festivals um  obviously the workshops and things that i   do with different schools so i i see it all and  when you start a film and it's shot just so bad   and there's no thought to framing or composition  or anything it's it's just you're done   and the sound it's bad sound is is so easy  to get and it's one of those things that   i i watch more people chance on and getting  a good sound uh sound recording uh on the set   everybody likes user friends and lovers and their  movies chances are your friends and lovers are not   good actors there are so many film schools there  are so many acting classes that you can call   and say i'm doing a student project i'm doing a  spec film i want actors that are good and know   their craft and you know what they will sign up  to do it because they need tape you you ask your   girlfriend or your friends either because you're  afraid to ask real talent and they may not like   your work or want to do it and that's where  you're wrong or b because you're afraid your   girlfriend will leave you if you don't put her  in your movie and that's you know i read about   that in the book um it's kiss to death i mean  if your girlfriend's a good actor give her a   roll but i would be very careful in in casting  and editorial is important um you know editing   is everything i i spent many years in the edit  bay before i considered myself a filmmaker and i   i learned what not to do in the edit bay and it  really it makes me sad when people i think about   his writing or their their cinematography  real or you know the end result without   thinking about the most important result in the  filmmaking process which is really the editorial   and also the cinematography i think they work  very much hand in hand locations are key because   anybody can shoot in their house anybody can shoot  in their kitchen anybody can shoot in their car   our job as storytellers to take people places  where they can't go where they wish to go or   where they're afraid to go and if you give them  locations that are just you know interesting and   break break the monotony of every other low-budget  film i think you'd be surprised how much more   success you can have with your film you know i  i had a wonderful drama teacher and i i always   quote him mr kilpatrick from high school and his  favorite saying was come up with three ways to   do something and go with the fourth and i wish i  remember that more often i'd probably have better   movies that were more successful if i did but  especially young filmmakers you know hey i could   shoot this at my house okay scrap that there's  one idea you're not doing it i can shoot it in   my garage okay that's even worse it's still at  the house but no you're not gonna do it shoot it   in the car why you know does i'm all for keeping  dialogue scenes moving so putting them in a car is   a good way to do that but where can you do this  that's different that's just going to make the   viewer feel like they're watching something fresh  and i think locations are key the most important   thing is um you know where people put money where  they shouldn't is it seems to be the wrap parties   i i'm a i'm a big anti-wrap party guy um it's  just money that's never going on the screen   it's money that you're more interested  in the social media aspect of people   cooing over your your you know your wrap party  and i think it's important to have a gathering   of the people that have worked hard for the  film but do it smart it's like when we do a   film we try to schedule our biggest cast days  on the last day and something centrally located   so people who aren't involved in the last day  can come visit the last day and we'll spend a   little extra money on the catering we may go  and buy 10 bottles of champagne for the day   not expensive ones but and put a simple  day for the last day so we can end early   no stress and then party right there we don't need  to go rent out bowling alleys we need to go rent   out you know all these places it's just money  that doesn't go on the screen and when you're   making especially independent films every dime  counts why are you gonna blow it in one night   that's never gonna go on the screen think about it  i know people that have spent 25 grand on a film   and they'll spend five grand on a wrap party and  i'll watch the film and say why didn't you get a   real editor we couldn't afford one really you know  you could have gotten so and so for three grand   to do that look at so-and-so's resume oh they've  cut 15 studio films that went number one they've   cut 18 sitcoms that are like tier sitcoms that on  their off time will happily moonlight and gladly   get involved and get their hands  dirty for fun for a little money   and that's always the excuse well we couldn't  afford it but it's always something else that   they can afford that just doesn't matter  and i think they just have to re-prioritize   sadly i think social media has become the  driving force but behind what people do   i look i know when i'm shooting a movie 18 months  later when the movie comes out nobody's going to   care about our set pitch look people want to post  on instagram and facebook hey we're on set look   at us great it's not going to sell one ticket  it's not going to sell one dvd it's not going   to get one download it's about how you build up  to the end and its release and there's something   you don't want to give us you know you don't  want to give people overexposure you don't want   to make people punch drunk on your pictures  of the same same same with no results or no   output you know so we try to be very careful when  we promote our films and not do it for years of   social media hype and likes it doesn't  sell any movies it's not going to work   i want to go back to something that you said that  was really interesting you said you wrote about   it in your book and that is using a girlfriend  you could also fill in boyfriend family member   co-worker cousin right whoever um how do you have  that conversation with that person because you   know you want to keep the relationship  with the person or maybe you don't but   let's suppose you do want to keep the relationship  how do you say listen do you audition them the way   everyone else does i think it's a lose-lose i say  if you're a young filmmaker don't date an actor   i'm married to an actor um and we have a great  relationship she did four years on general   hospital she's been in a lot of fun movies and  there's never a person like for me i always try   to put my wife in and and just have her there to  be a ball but she produces with me she's involved   in the post-war we work on a film together for  eight to twelve months having her be a part of it   on camera is something i like to let her flex that  muscle and have fun and she's good she knows her   crap she's good at what she does but she doesn't  have expectations for me either she understands   it's a business i don't like having her in front  of the camera as a director i just i i i am not as   gracious with her as i probably could be i could  be better as a husband to a wife who's acting   um and that's just probably my fault it's just  you know i i just it's not a dynamic that i love   but we found a way to make it work and she's  been in every film i've done over the last   15 20 years and it's worked but um to get back to  your question i think you have to decide are you   in this to showcase a whole bunch of friends  or are you here to make a career and if you're   going to become a doctor you're going to become  an architect if you're going to become a lawyer   are you going to spend all those years in college  and bring your friends along with you while you're   studying taking your tests and learning the craft  of medicine i don't think so so i think filmmaking   communities are important and yes relationships  build you're going to meet women in film school   or actors on the set that you're going to fall  in love with but i think you really have to think   above the shoulders and think what is what is  the purpose of this project and what do i hope   to gain out of it and selfishly you have to build  what's best for the project there's nothing harder   than when you've got somebody you love who's in  front of the camera that is just atrocious and   they just sink the ship what i always try to do  coming up is i would i would find ways to utilize   people's gifts in ways that wouldn't sink the ship  you know i always say to somebody well you want to   work in the industry anyway if you weren't  going to act what else would you want to do   well you know why don't you produce this with me  i need somebody to handle sag paperwork i need   somebody to handle our locations and then you  know what throw them in under five throw them   something expendable or if god forbid it's  awful get rid of it and i'm sorry to talk so   so straight the only way to get rid of a problem  is to not have a problem or to be able to get   yourself out of a problem and if you know you're  starring your girlfriend who can't remember a   line or hit a mark or understand the the craft  of the the respect the craft of acting enough   to know it why are you wasting your time it  just doesn't make sense i i don't have much much grace or uh i'm not very soft harder when it comes  to that i say just don't even don't even go there   yeah i think it's not just girlfriends  though i think if there's friendships   that are built around you know people  whatever it is being in films together   that's great and i think it could just be a  really difficult thing for people to handle   yeah i mean ed burns was very lucky with brothers  mcmullen i mean he had some very talented friends   but i mean you know that happens once in a while  shane black you know he grew up at that you know   coming off overland in west la and he kind of  lived in that famous house with writers and   actors and storytellers and these guys all kind of  helped each other out and built the machine it's   very rare uh you know the the wilson brothers  owen and um and the other one got him blinking   luke yeah i mean talented and they ran you know  did bottle rockets and all their friends and   there's ways to do it napoleon dynamite did it too  but by and large you think about how many young   filmmakers are out there and we always go for  hey mom do you want to play the mom in my short   you know when you were steven  spielberg and seven that worked   but when you're in film school you're  trying to make a career for yourself   you know again call the acting schools you know  there are a lot of acting schools that have some   decent talented people that would sure love  to be a part of your film and they will take   it seriously and they will learn to learn the role  and the craft is there and the talent is there and   you know uncle vinnie playing dad is  not always the best idea you know just you know i mean now look i'll often  use an owner of a location if i know   they're a sag actor and they're good like i  have i have friends that own locations that   are actually working good actors i'll say  hey i'll trade you off i want your location   but i'll give you i'll give you a few  lines in this movie like oh yeah sign me up   but they're working actors also you know so i  think you always have to try to put the right   people in when you can with the exception of  with locals in certain films especially if it's   like a certain region of the us or or other  part of the world there's just people that   you just can't you can't get that from central  casting it's too good you know and and you can   you can definitely tell but it works in the  film you know so we're talking about getting   some uh some people that you just you just  find just the gems oh it's you know casting   is it's interesting i say as filmmakers you want  to make friends with a lot of different agencies   uh to this day i will i will reach out to friends  that own boutique agencies you've never heard of   and say i'm doing a film i need a cashier at a  country store i need a hipster who can play guitar   at a campfire i need somebody who can you know be  a drug dealer on the corner or i'll call a drug   dealer in a corner and say hey you want to play  yourself in a movie i'll give you 50 bucks you   know i mean sometimes you got to do that um i find  the people that are the best together the people   that do what it is you want them to do if you're  not hiring an actor again it to me it's always   about getting the best person you can in front  of and behind the camera so if you need something   and you're not getting it with what you're  auditioning go find somebody who does it and tell   them i just need you to be yourself i want you  to be a part of this i'm not going to embarrass   you i just i need and you'd be amazed i mean i  learned that from my dad you know we worked with   probated youth for a lot of years and we had a lot  of of kids in our life that we knew that had done   a lot of crooked stuff and i remember one time we  got a pilot um for uh i think it was time warner   television or warner cable court tv something like  that and they wanted a bunch of reenactments of   burglaries and assaults and all that at the  end of the day we ended up i think hiring   eight or nine of the kids that we worked  with that had done time in real prison   to play parts and they did better than anybody  they knocked it out of the park because it's   who they were and look at homeboys industry inc is  that father boyle yeah i mean you got father boyle   at homeboy industries i mean we i first learned  about that when we were shooting great iron   gang half the extras you walk around you go you  just know when you've worked around real inmates   most your life like i have the swagger the way  they walk the way they talk the way they move   and i remember saying at one point i said where'd  we get all these guys because i know they've done   time and said oh this great thing going on  called homeboy industries inc you've got to   check it out all these kids have done time and i  was like that that makes sense that's so cool and   so i'm a big fan of that yeah sure yeah there's  nothing worse when someone is supposed to play   someone in the underworld let's say and  they're so squeaky clean and it just takes you   out and and there are there's there's mannerisms  there's just different signs and yeah watch a lot   of music videos from the 80s because they would  put a lot of the rock stars girlfriends in when   they were supposed to be down without homeless  girls and you'd see these like not tiny contain   on the jaguar hood but you know you would see  supermodels literally with like shoe polish   on their face digging through a you know a bin  looking for food and you're like oh come on yeah   yeah when you work with dwayne johnson and was it  2006 on the gridiron gang did you have any idea   he would be the star that he is today well i'm not  surprised that he became the star that he is today   um the guy is he he goes in 150 on  everything he does he doesn't do anything   half cocked um his commitment to excellence i  think it comes from his upbringing uh and also his   you know he was an accomplished football player  in college played with the national champion   team with the miami hurricanes and then obviously  what he accomplished as a wrestler and his humble   beginnings and if you know anything about him you  know huge disappointments going through football   the nfl and the cfl and then having to start and  beg vince mcmahon for a job at you know these 150   a night barnyard wrestling tours that they were  doing and you look at where he truly came from and   and just his passion his devotion and his his  commitment to learning the craft and making it as   good as i think i think there are those few people  that you say he can accomplish anything he wants   i i think that's somebody i'd put on top of the  list absolutely do you remember anything notable   from being on set with dwayne johnson yeah i  mean sure i mean you know it was a memorable time   and fortunately i you know proud to say that we  remained good friends um you know here we are 14   years later um still can call him a friend still  in touch he's you know as i said he his commitment   to excellence is second to none he takes so  much pride and you ever talk about somebody who   when they talk to anybody it didn't matter if it  was the guy who was cleaning the toilets it didn't   matter if it was an extra it didn't matter if it  was the director or me producer or anybody when   when he talked to you he was there 100 percent  it was all about this moment with that whoever he   talked to and i think the most memorable time for  me when we were making the film was we were about   two or three weeks in we were shooting uh  during the summer it was probably may or june   and we were shooting up at the prison in malibu  where we actually my father and i shot the   documentary we went back and shot the scripted  piece with dwayne there and he got really sick   he got a flu something when it was food poisoning  or what it's something something happened and   you know it's one of those things you know  the medics were called you know just it wasn't   he was it was just you know you're star sick  you get the medic there you have a medic on set   and they were checking his his blood and it's this  and that and and it was like first thing he was   gonna say is look you know we're here for three  months dude you want to call he said no no no no   i got this he goes i just need i need 10 minutes  let me just give me 10 minutes let me hydrate let   me let some of the aspirin kick in let me we'll  do this and what was interesting it was his first   real deep scene with one of the kids where he was  interacting with one of the kids from the program   and i don't know if anybody remembers  the film it's a scene where he's   encounters the the samoan running back junior in  the middle of the yard at night the kid had a call   because it was his daughter's birthday and he was  pissed that he was missing his birthday and dwayne   wouldn't let him be part of the football program  because he had a hair trigger all he did was fight   and spend all his time in solitary so dwayne  sit down you're not going to be any part of the   team so what this scene was was the two of them  coming together and this kid convincing dwayne   that he can be a part of the program and be a  productive part of it and i knew at that moment   you know we've all seen people tough it out but  you want to talk about being able to completely   block out what he was dealing with and rise to  the occasion or accept the challenge which was   the saying on gridiron gang he did it and  i knew at that moment i said god this guy   you know he he wasn't created we'll  just say that you know there's enough   created fabricated tough guys in hollywood  or greats in hollywood and and i knew at that   moment this guy was genuine he was sincere  he was passionate and you know went all in take us back to the documentary that you  did how did that come about funny story   um we my father my stepmother and i had done a  host of reality shows before the term was a term   there were documentaries uh on probated youth  it started with desperate passage back in 1986   then became made in voyage desperate passage  was with michael landon made in voyage with   sharon glass then it was a step apart with marlo  thomas and then you know eddie james almost had   done a few of them and they were just they had got  you know these wonderful great actors to host or   narrate these documentaries about probated youth  that we did and it was basically they were done to   show america the hearts cry of  troubled youth that they are still kids   that they weren't raised they were basically  put out and often were raised by street gangs or   you know by pimps and drug dealers and that these  these were still children they were still human   beings that deserved a chance and um like you  know we learned over the years that a kid didn't   care what you thought unless you unless you  knew you cared and then once we broke through   that some remarkable things happened and we  ended up doing things about eight or nine   so we had done a slew of these and had a lot of  success and a couple of studios that optioned   a few of them to be turned into scripted  films and my stepmom linda who i call mom but   my mom was reading the la times and there was a  story in the metro section about one of the jails   that we had done a lot of filming at was starting  a football team within the confines of the jail   and the hope was that these kids would be allowed  to go out and play against the straight schools   and they started with an eight-man football  team or seven-man team the first year and then   the second year when we heard about it and it  finally made press was they were they were gonna   fill a full team so mom came into the office and  was all excited threw the thing down on my dad's   desk and said oh my god this is this is a movie  my dad was like yeah yeah we we've done these and   linda god bless her mom she was like no no no no  no this is the one this is the one so she pushed   him pretty hard so after a few days he called  probation and said hey it's lee how you doing   we want to come up we'd love to do a documentary  we saw the article in the la times and we've been   doing this with probation at this point for seven  years we've had all the success and done well   and they kind of laughed us off and said yeah  get in line like what are you talking about well   ever since that article came out every studio in  hollywood wants to do it we're engaging you name   the actor you name the producer they're trying  to negotiate the rights this is this is out of   your wheelhouse guys you know so we kind of we're  like well that's too bad that we we got excited   about it assuming it was going to be ours and we  lost it so about three weeks went by and the head   of probation called my father and said are you  still interested in doing the uh the the story   on the prison football team and my father said  well why i thought you had hollywood's elite   yeah we we do and we have and we got a quick quick  crash course on how hollywood does things and we   all decided we kind of like the way you guys do  things so if you'd like to do it the rights are   yours we'll see here they start practice in  three days and we didn't have any money and   we we ended up just beg borrowing and stealing  some cameras and got the funding after the fact   we'd like raced up to get it because i mean how  do you call somebody say we need funding in three   days we just we kind of knew what we could go to  some of our trusted investors from the past shows   but we just rolled the dice and grabbed  a couple cameras and sound and a small   crew of four of us is what it usually was and  went up and shot and we made the documentary   we got the funding and when i say the funding  i think it was probably 200 000 dollars to   to make this documentary and what was  really funny is in making it um you know   we covered the first game and what you saw in  the the film with the rock was a direct lift i   mean basically jeff mcguire our writer watched  the documentary and just wrote what was there   it's all there and it was interesting because the  kids had lost their first game cried like babies   we all went our separate ways that was a movie  it was over as far as we were concerned it was   over and my father was speaking uh for janet  reno who was the attorney general at the time   in atlanta for a big fbi conference they wanted my  dad there because he understood so much about the   youth of today and incarcerated youth and they  just kind of wanted to understand from somebody   who'd worked 20 years with these kids kind of to  hear his take on it not being a clinical psych or   a cop you know let's let's hear somebody who's  worked with these kids different point of view   so my dad goes to atlanta with my mom and they're  gone and it was like they've made a week out of it   because my uncle lived in florida and they were  going to spend time with them i get this phone   call from my father he said hey uh what are you  doing this weekend and i was like i'm just hanging   out what's up he said you know the documentary  we did on the film with the football team i said   of course he said well those little brats are  playing for the state championship i need you to   get a couple cameras i need you to go handle it  and then there's an awards banquet after that i   need you to go deal with it i'm stuck in atlanta  so i had to scramble and get a couple of great   cameramen i think it was phillip hearn and steve  elkins and chip brooks did sound and me directing   and we went out and shot their championship game  against montclair prep where they lost 13 to 7   and and then the awards banquet at the  old sportsman's lodge right after that   and then that was it and that's how it came  about and nobody wanted it it was interesting   with all the success we had nobody wanted it it  sat um was steve bell who had basically given   us anything we wanted at ktla and tribune  to launch our shows was no longer there he   had gone to start i think stars or encore so  we were dealing with a new regime at ktla and   tribune and they didn't really capture the vision  and our agents at caa at the time watched it and   said that's a that's a cute little documentary and  you know my dad went back to get the vhs from the   projectionist at caa and he was wiping his eyes he  said i heard what he said don't listen to a word   this is one of the most powerful things i've  ever seen you're going to do great with this   and we finally got it on tv it won an emmy for  uh i don't know what the heck it won for but   it was it was a big national emmy it won my dad  and uh the day after it aired on tv every studio   but paramount called to make a bid every a-list  actor you can imagine was calling i mean we went   into the office the next day there was you know  the thing ran out of tape and the next week the   phone just rang off the hook you know it was  everybody trying to get the rights so it was   an incredible experience it was a whirlwind and  then it took another 14 years to get made so can   we can we have a condensed version of those 14  years and why do you think that's really nothing okay why do you think that is well it was easy  i mean you know mark canton ran the studio uh if   they had to have it because everybody else wanted  it they paid the most and gave us the prettiest   pitch so jeff mcguire had just written the uh in  the line of fire with clint eastwood and wolfgang   pedersen and got the academy award nomination  so he was our writer so the film acquired two   million and a half i think two and a half million  dollars of studio costs against it and then canton   was out he was fired and the new regime came in  and usually what happens is all those films that   have been sitting around going to turn around  so they put gridiron in a turnaround they were   like yeah you know whatever this is the old so  after uh 18 months of development another reason   i don't like it the film sat with a two and a  half million dollar lien against it and i don't   think a month went by in 12 years where somebody  didn't call and say what's going on with gridiron   we'd love to make it and we said hey there's a  two and a half million dollar fee against it if   you want to pay off sony we can start from  scratch and make the movie and most people   would hang up before we were done with the  sentence it was like yeah not gonna happen   and uh um yeah so 14 years went by it was from  1993 till 2005. so what is that 12 years went by   and then neil moritz who we had known years ago  when he first started his career with juice and   stoned age we always had a respect for each other  and neil had become obviously quite the producer   with things like fast and furious and a whole  list of other films and just called it neil one   day when i heard friday night lights was getting  done and they were gonna make invincible they were   gonna make we are marshall they were making facing  the giants we talked earlier about how hollywood   likes to keep doing the same thing called neil and  said do you want to make red iron gang he said yes   let's do it and we had a meeting my father and  i went and saw neil and he said do me a favor   before you come to my office shane give me a  list of cast he said this thing has fallen on   its face time and time again it's about the  cast we got to make this thing cast right so   i spent the night putting together a cast that i  thought was going to change the world and put the   world on its ear and while doing that my wife  girlfriend at the time val said come in here   i want you to see what i'm watching on tv and i  ignored her i said i'm busy i'm playing hollywood   producer she came into my office and she had tears  pouring down her face and said you need to you   need to come in here she said i got your guy and i  said come on man really she said come in well she   was watching the a e biography on the rock and you  know he had been arrested i think a dozen times   before his 18th birthday football saved him and  how he thought he was going to be an nfl player   coming off a championship college team and ended  up breaking his neck or rupturing all his discs   started over from nothing and i watched and  was just fascinated and i literally hit the   delete button on the document on my on my  computer went in to see neil the next day   we caught up hadn't seen each other in person in  a while congratulated him on all of his success   and he said great all right where's your  list and i said i didn't make a list and   you can see he deflated and i said i got the i  got the guy he said kind of needed a list what   do you got and i said the rock and he thought  for a minute and he yelled to his assistant   and said when's my meeting with the rock and  she said you're having dinner with him tomorrow   he looked at me and he said i'm having dinner with  him tomorrow we're trying to figure out something   to do this could be the one he said get me a  copy of the the documentary you guys did on dvd   and let's find that original script that mcguire  wrote 15 years ago he was probably going to need   to be dusted off and modernized but i want to  go with that script just give me the dvd and   have it back here by tomorrow i'm having dinner  with them tomorrow night so i didn't have a dvd   of gridiron gang it was on vhs so i found a place  that converted it for me in literally a half a day   sunset video ran it down to neal's office just  in time and two days later neil called and said   duane wants to meet you guys and we hung out  at the jail and it was a great experience and   he he encountered the kids and saw what we were  doing and said i commit let's make the movie and   14 years later we were  rolling camera and that was it so that that meeting took place and then   he committed to it so take me on why people  were passing on it i'm confused sorry   why were people passing on it within that  time when he hadn't reached the level that he   is now at i'm confused nobody passed on it once  once he signed on and went right to sony we had a   green light picture he was very much in demand it  was the documentary that we struggled to get seen   uh i see like doing the documentary and having  tremendous success i mean we had already won 12   emmys and had 32 nominations and nobody wanted to  watch this one which was kind of part of the same   genre sure as yeah and then finally we kind of  bartered a deal at ktla to get them to put it on   and once it got on every studio wanted it so  we spent eight months getting quartered by   everybody from disney to sony to warner to  universal and then went with sony and then   canton developed it and then he got fired so then  everything just wanted to turn around so it's that   we just we couldn't do anything with it because  there was a 2 million lien against it from sony   and what was really cool maybe this will  help clarify neil because of his reputation   and his deals that he had at sony he was like  look the two and a half million dollars they're   claiming needs to be paid back he goes that was  14 years ago that money's been written off it's   done it's gone it's a new regime i will deal with  that and neil went in and talked to amy pascal who   who captured the vision of the project he  was very excited about it and said all right   let's wave the two and a half let's let's put  a new let's put this back on a fast track and   you know get a start we want we're excited about  let's do it fortunately they were excited about   dwayne and we were rolling he had to go shoot  a film i think it was doom or the game plan and   then i think it was doom and then as soon  as he got back we started ours immediately   and then off we went and then what was the  reception once the the narrative version   was finished once the film came out it did very  well it was frustrating because we finished it   in uh i think it was oh i want to say oh five or  six and in september we were supposed to come out   during the super bowl like build up to the super  bowl we wanted to give him that football movie   and at the last minute sony decided yeah we're  going to push it another nine months we'll come   out in september so it's like oh it's only  been 13 years what's another nine months   film came out it went number one did very  well it was number one for two weeks um   it did well i think the fact that there  were three other football movies out like   invincible and we are marshall and facing the  giants didn't help us but it's still i think it   did 30 or 38 million domestic in the box office  one thing that you don't hear about was we were   very fortunate with home video sony created  blu-ray as we all know and there was a race   between two mediums it was blu-ray and another  home high-def system i don't remember what it was   and sony decided when they launched blu-ray  they were going to do it on two films they   did spider-man 2 and they did gridiron so  what happened is this gridiron came back and   dwayne had become such a big star during that  time the dvd and what little vhs sales were   were very very strong and then when they recycled  it for blu-ray why it was still relevant it more   than doubled again so it had this extra boost  that nobody expected which was really special   so yeah that was that was gridiron it did well  it was fun and you know it's nice to to have that that in my resume and i don't mean that it's it's  you know a career that's now 48 years going it's   nice to have had the number one blockbuster  and it gives me we talked about chasing   that success i had as a 16 year old it  gave me that validation it hit 30 37 36   and it it it really reminds me everything's okay  you know maybe every 10 15 years i'll have one   but maybe i won't again but it's okay i  i slayed the dragon and i can just move   forward and be comfortable with what i do  and you had some people give you advice as   well that had also had success early in life  who who kind of like put things in perspective   i know i was very very fortunate you  know with some of the the people that i   run with or worked with or befriended over the  years you know people that come to mind or people   like charlie sheen or brett michaels uh you know  there's the singer from poison obviously rock of   love celebrity apprentice everybody knows brat  now uh from all different different places and   brett and i have been best friends since probably  93 or 94. and here's a guy who had tremendous   success came from very humble beginnings you know  him and other guys from poison jumped in evandro   from harrisburg pennsylvania to l.a lived in an  abandoned warehouse or an abandoned laundromat   for three years trying to make it and they had in  the 80s and 90s had so much success and then the   music styles changed and talk about a guy who  was able to reinvent himself you know brett's   had to reinvent himself three times and he's done  well every time and the one thing he taught me was   the cool thing is you know when he had every  rose has its thorn was his number one hit   so we we kind of joked about i had my gridiron he  had his every rose it was kind of funny when that   finally happened and he said here's the cool thing  about that nobody can ever take it away from you   he goes there will be another 52 movies this year  that'll go number one he goes that's fine but you   still went number one and i never forgot that i  never wore that conceitedly or with arrogance but   it was it gave me the affirmation that i think  so many artists you know you want that and that   that helped um but he always gave me  the greatest advice he always said   no one to get off the merry-go-round you know  we talked about that you know getting off the   merry-go-round at the right time there's people  that jump off it too soon and it's still moving   too fast and that's not good you know you  think about getting off a merry-go-round too   fast it'll kill you and then there's the people  that hang on it too long and it comes to a stop   and people are waiting for you to get off  he said what you have to do is figure out   how to ride certain moments of your career  and know when to step away and it's never easy   you know when i say that i talk about a  film that you have a film that does well   you can you can i'll use a very generic term  you can milk that as long as you think you can   but you try not to over milk it you try not to  hinge your your future on it you realize hey we   were fortunate we were blessed we had a moment in  time that nobody can take from us and there are   going to be 51 other number one movies this year  so we need to get moving and let the next people   come in and do what they need to do and enjoy  the moment and let's go on and go back to work   so i've had some good advice with some people in  my life that have kind of been that done there   i think that you know been very helpful to  me why not give up on the project earlier   10 years in you're talking about  giving it up why it was sitting at sony   well we did because it was in turn around and i  didn't have two and a half million dollars laying   around with accruing interest to pay them off to  get it back the one thing that always gave us hope   was as i said i don't think a month went by  in 12 years where somebody called and said hey   what's going on there was actually a time where  peter gruber called and said um i know you've got   your your deal with sony that's got to be paid  off i used to be head of sony i may be able to   make that work i really would like to try to make  this into something so we we did a deal with with   mandalay peter guber before we ended up making  it with neil um there were a few people that that   would try to do some creative so when you have  a project and it's it's generating that interest   for so long with people with that kind of juice  you never want to throw that away you know we   talked earlier about what's a good script what's  a good story what can you use to get a foothold   in this industry well when you have a product and  you've got the peter goobers or the neil moritzes   or the joe roths or the bobby neumeyers calling  you on a regular basis saying what's going on man   let's you know well okay there's something there  you don't just bury it you can't you can't so i   think there was always the hope that it would get  done one day i think my dad and i had always kind   of said you know one day maybe something will  come along maybe we'll have success somewhere   else enough where we can buy out that two million  and get it done you know um but it all worked out   and so when you filmed at the sportsman's lodge  both schools were there right for this dinner   no this was all for the kids oh okay it's all  for the mustangs interesting yeah and i don't   think it was a sportsman's lodge it was it was  a shh it was it's where it's where um there's a   sushi spot there right now it's an all you can eat  sushi place off wineca and tampa across from the   ash it used to be called the smorgasbord inn it  was a sports banquet lodge similar to sportsman's   lodge but it wasn't so you have to put that in but  it's so funny i just say sportsman's lodge because   everybody knows it but it was like the swedish  inn or something like that okay yeah it was it   was the parents and the kids and sadly there was  only a few parents you know we had 48 kids on the   team and i think eight parents showed up it was  tragic i'm sad that's just that's the way it is how much should a filmmaker pay  themselves whatever they can   i mean you know at the end of the day it depends  you know when i say filmmaker i think about me   i'm involved concept to delivery  you know i just got into it with   somebody the other day who worked on  our last film and they worked i think   four to six weeks on breakeven i just  celebrated my 27th month on the film last week   now we lost five months of covid but during the  covet time we had to repurpose our distribution   outlets what we were going to do so i ended up  dealing with a whole new list of deliverables   a whole new group of people with different qc  demands you know for quality control for release   so you know there are people on that film that  worked three or four weeks i got paid a hell of   a lot more than i did and you know here i am i'm  literally like almost two and a half years in and   i wouldn't change a thing about it i don't do it  for the money i do it because i love to do it i i   just i enjoy the process but you know i always say  be fair you're going to have an investor that you   want to be able to have an open books relationship  with if you have an investor that says i'd like to   see the books you don't want to that's not a good  position to be in there are plenty of people you   can google in hollywood who have gone to prison i  always say just when you hand an investor a budget   you live by it and you can put clauses in your  financing agreement that say hey if we come in   under budget i get to keep it or if i come  in under budget let's split what's left or   you know but i i think whatever you can  pay yourself if you're raising the money   you're creating the content you're creating  jobs for you know and break even 125 people   you know get what you can you know because  you're going to give the money back to your   investors i trust so you may never see another  dime you know so i i never try to tell people   what they should or shouldn't pay themselves i  just say if you were the investor of the film and   you your filmmaker was being paid what  you're paying yourself would you feel   comfortable looking would you would you would  you be okay looking at those books and i think   if you can answer yes that's fine i've never had  an investor i've never had an investor ask me in   30 years of raising independent money how much i'm  paying myself i've had their lawyer ask me once   one time i had a lawyer ask me and i've never been  asked since and i was very direct with the lawyer   at the time i belonged to four unions and i said  well i'm a union member for the following guilds   i will be doing all four of these jobs on the  film i am not going to be taking my union rates   i have parked my union membership so i could do  this project this is what i normally get paid   here's what i'm doing it for and he was like  wow okay i just he was like i just didn't know   i thought he was questioning my value he just was  curious but um i i say you know you're gonna be   you know every film is a love affair you're gonna  walk away from it scarred heartbroken chipped   teeth black guys gray bald fat thin it's it's  gonna it's gonna do this to you you know you're   gonna lose 20 pounds in pre-production you're  going to put on a few pounds during production   and you're going to put on 25 pounds of post you  know so i i just say you know be fair to yourself   um realize that this is going to be probably a  year to an 18-month process and what is your time   worth and uh don't bankrupt the project because  you have to be greedy or get paid you don't budget   yourself accordingly you're a line item you know  every job you do is a line item if you if you're   writing a script you're you should be paid as a  writer if you're producing you should be paid as   a producer if you're directing it the same and  editing it the same if you're supervising music   and doing post-production and deliverables that  cost somebody's gotta get paid to do it right   so which production taught you the most you  don't have to name names or the name of the   movie or who you work with but it just taught you  the most whether it was something about yourself   whether it was something about  how you were working with people something where it changed you in a lot of ways   could be for better or worse i you know i grew  up as you know doing independent shoestring   thread budgets with my dad i mean we were doing we  were doing films that had million dollar budgets   for 20 grand back in the day when we were shooting  in film and i learned so you have to learn so much   if you're gonna make it work i mean we literally  did these films on crews of three to five   so you could be shooting a camera and you  could be also holding a boom pole and mixing an   fp32 mixer on your hip as you're trying to pull  focus and shoot and you kind of become those you   know those musicians that were the the symbols on  your knees and the bass drum and the tambourine   on their head and you kind of do a lot of that i  think i got shape doing those the first major film   i produced was a 12 million film for miramax back  in the day and it was frustrating because i knew   how to do so much and wasn't allowed but what  was really cool when we got there i still got   to do so much i had co-written the script and i'd  produced the film one of the producers of the film   and before we were done i ended up doubling for  one of the big stars i ended up cutting the film   and ended up being you know working with the  post supervisors and the music supervisors and   i got to do a lot of things again and that  was really fun and i it reminded me that   you know when you work in big budgetville  it's funny there's people to do everything   you know it's spread out so much but i come from  a a place where everybody did it so much and i i   like when everybody does so much and what's funny  is after living in covid going back to work where   the demands or the crews are smaller the people  who know how to do much are the ones who are going   to be called because i know when we're crewing  up for this new film that we're gearing up to do   everybody's got to be able to do a lot  of things i mean even my camera operators   they got to be able to do a lot of things you know  my my it's no longer hair makeup and wardrobe and   props it's one person who's going to handle all  four of those it's the only way it's gonna work   you know and uh so i learned from everything every  production i've ever done karen i learned from   and i i appreciate each experience i  learned something new on every show   what's the worst piece of advice you've  received and it actually turned out to be true   but at the time when you heard it you  thought i'm not listening to this person   worst piece of advice i ever  got that turned out to be true i think the worst advice i ever got that  turned out to be true was um was something   that my photo teacher taught me in my  senior year in high school mr ken neely   he uh he called me in after class one day and  he said i'm worried about your future he said   you're a jack of all trade master of none and i  said what do you mean he said well you're here in   photo class you're doing okay you take a decent  picture because you race dirt bikes you play   drums in a band and you've won an emmy already you  know what's your plan dude like you gotta like and   i got really concerned about that and i gave  up a lot of things in my life because of that   and what's weird is i don't know if  that was bad advice but it was true   and i didn't listen to the advice and i just  became this guy that did a lot of things   that i i do well enough to to work and  to stay relevant am i a great storyteller   no am i a great director that's  putting the world on their on their ear   no not reinventing the wheel am i a great editor  that's gonna you know come up with a way to cut a   film differently than anybody else has no so i'm  not able to put all of my energy into one thing i am really glad now that i'm almost 50 i've been  able to stay working for as long as i have because   i did become a jack of all trade i don't  think if i if if i had listened to his advice   and not pumped the brakes after a year and a half  of getting rid of everything in my life that was   important to me i would have truly learned the  craft of everything i could so i know that's not   the answer to the question you asked but that  is the one thing that has constantly haunted   me over the years was the advice did i do it  right what did i give up and then how did i   reboot myself and then i looked later and i go  well i i've actually been i'm okay so you know   did you tell other people about that conversation  and did they steer you away from doing too much it's funny every time i start a film everybody  tells me you do too much we're going to be here   to support you you do too much we're going to take  a lot of it off you and i don't know if it's me   not truly embracing and trusting  the people i work with enough to   to trust that that's gonna happen or it's  going to be okay um i'm not a control freak   i'm very hands-on but i've also been around too  many productions when people assume somebody's   going to take care of something and it's just it's  unacceptable when they fall through the cracks and   i'm just somebody that knows if i handle it it  won't doesn't mean i'm perfect it doesn't mean   i'm great it just means that i know if it's on  my list to do's it's i i know if it's on my list   of to do's it's going to get done and i'm very  hard to trust people with doing those things so   um again i don't know if i'm answering  your question properly but you know i   i have spent my entire career being told by people  well we just want you to direct and we just want   you to deal with this and i haven't been able to  do that because you know i haven't felt that i   haven't had the peace in my heart to do that and  i wish i had and it's nothing anybody has done   it's it's my own problem it's not somebody has  dropped the ball or let me down it's that fear   it's waking up at two in the morning as i talk  about in the book in a sweat scared to death the   wrong actor is going to show up tomorrow scared  to death we didn't get a permit scared to death   that we didn't order the drone or whatever and  i know if i'm handling it it's not going to fall   through the cracks it sounds like too you love  to be busy i do ambidextrous you're always doing   things adhd but same difference right or gemini  yeah so so you just certain people just love to be   they they just have certain ways about  them they love to be busy i love to be   busy i'd love not to be as busy as i am but i  always find that i'm never not i'm never still   i'm never still and i always say i'm going to stop  taking things on and then three days go by and i'm   sitting here looking at four other projects  that i just committed to get involved with   what was i thinking but somehow some way they  get done yeah you know yeah i mean i think   just certain people are hardwired differently i am  definitely hardwired differently but no i mean not   in a bad way but yeah but just wanting to to say  or they they like they have a tv show on they're   cleaning something over here they're looking  at twitter there's just yeah just some people   i don't vacation well i don't i don't take days  off i don't vacation luckily my wife is kind of   we love our little world and what we do and  there's not we're not people that take two weeks   every year to go do anything you know we take day  trips once every week or every other week go do   fun things we we're always together i mean we both  work from home so we're together all the time so   we have our time together but i never oh my god  i gotta get away and go to hawaii or i need to   jump on a plane and go somewhere you know i it's  never been in my dna no cruises no god no what are   the top five reasons an investor will invest  in your project top five reasons an investor   will invest in somebody or their  project i think number one is because   they want to help you i think anytime you go  to an investor it's somebody who's probably in   better circumstance than you are or at least  has the ability to help get you to the next   level make your dreams come true i have had  investors that get behind me simply because   there's a trust level there's a feeling of wanting  to help me get to another level of my career   sometimes it's because they feel the project's  important often it's because they want   to get a tax write-off i mean there's the  business side of the business too you know i i   believe that you know astute investors are  taught by business managers to avoid three   or four different investments one one is  nightclubs and restaurants one is recording   studios and the other is movies i mean that's  just like those are the three you don't do   so getting private equity together for making  motion pictures is is difficult we have kind   of a stigma going in there's already a couple  of strikes against us so what's important is   that we're able to appeal to an independent and  i'm sorry what's important is that we're able to   appeal to individual financiers or investors with  what it is that we're trying to achieve with our   work i think that's really important and i as i  talk about a lot in my book i think it's really   important for for filmmakers to really do their  research on people don't just go meet rich people   meet people who can identify with  what it is you're trying to do   you may have a passion project that you want to  do but you can do your research on a specific   investor and learn that they may have a passion  or an interest think about doing something that   is something that they will be more open or  interested in doing and go down that road   so when you meet with them they're excited and  thrilled about what it is you're trying to pitch   take care of business do that and then they're  going to come usually if it's successful in a good   a good journey and say what is it you want  to do and that's often been the hardest thing   because you know again as filmmakers we're  myopic we think about what we want to do   and often you have to think about what other  people want to do that are in a position of   helping us so i always say go in with an open  heart going with an open mind be willing to   bob and weave a little bit off of your plan at  the end of the day the goal is to work the goal is   to make new relationships i mean i have investors  that we've known for 35 years that have faithfully   gotten involved i have investors that have  invested one time that i've known 25 years and   we're still best of friends and they did it one  time and didn't ruin the friendship it just they   wanted to try and i have i have you know friends  that i've i've known for 25 and 30 years who would   never invest in this business and they are more  than capable it's just to each his own but i think   people will want to i say you know you always  have to remember you're under the watchful eye   if you are going to approach people to invest in  you realize you're going to become an open book   they're going to look at your social media they're  going to look at how you conduct yourself they're   going to invite you to parties where there's  going to be alcohol because they want you to drink   and they want to see how you're going to behave  people don't realize that i mean i know a lot of   real close calls friends of mine have had over the  years we're like god you know i had an investor on   the hook had this party i drank too much passed  out at the guys play well duh you know they're   they're almost saying here let me see how you  do what can i trust you with and just remember   you have to treat their money like it's your money  and i think you know some of the success that   we've had with our investors it's not always about  how much the return on investment was it's about   a trust level it's about the experience let  them feel involved you know i send my investors   emails at the end of every night telling  them good bad or indifferent how the day went   and then once we're in post production i fill them  in once a week and it's that way in pre-production   too i just feel that they they're we're doing  what we do because they trust in us and they   give us the means to do it you have to let  them feel involved and a lot of times these   investors believe it or not are a little bored  doing what they do and they see this as kind   of a neat little fun outlet so involve them you  know let them feel a part of what you're doing   that being said have you ever put money from  a credit card into any of your projects have i   ever put money from a credit card into one of my  projects um oh yeah um there's been times where   i've done uh self-funded projects you know i talk  about the 500 pilot i talk about the 10 000 movie   i mean i had an investor that came to me with 20  dollars and said i wanna make a movie with you and   um didn't account for sag bonds and the fact that  it was kind of a sequel remake to something we did   that was on sag experimental and had to repay all  the actors for the work they did the year before   so that 20 000 turned into 12 000 really quick  and the investor was cool enough to say i'll   throw an additional amount in for the bond but  that's it because he would get his bond back so   we really had about 12 grand to work with and  there was a couple of days that it was kind   of like all right you know let's feed the crew  well tonight and just you know it's part of it   um but i've never had to like max out a  credit card to make a movie or anything i i   haven't had to do that i maxed out credit  cards doing other stupid [ __ ] i know   no swearing i had to throw no more jet skis  though no more jet skis no that's over that's that's over good question though yeah no i mean  it's about we did dark side i put about 3 500 on   credit cards to feed i just the people weren't  eating well enough and the budget was so cheap   and they were all working for nothing and it  was like goddamn i gotta i gotta feed these guys   so i just i told my wife i'm like i i can't do  the subway and pizza thing for 15 days we're   gonna feed them every three days really well but  we did we did and i think we got i think we got   a good result from that you know and you feed them  well happy crew happy moving right just want to be   fed and respected you know if you invest 250 000  in a movie does that mean it's going to sell for   at least 250 000 oh hell no it's like putting 75  million into a movie and sometimes it makes back   10 million i mean there's no guarantees um  obviously the more money you have to play with   um hopefully the better the cast the more bankable  the cast the more well-known the cast but you   don't always have that i mean we've done a lot of  250 000 movies and i think again it comes down to   telling a good story it comes down to getting  a good cast that's recognizable and marketable   and it's also about those locations you know take  people places they want to go make them never feel   like they're watching a 250 000 movie you know  i take a lot of pride in in my 20 000 movie we   really did for 12 grand a lot of people don't know  the story of that and what it did for my career   i actually got more out of my career because  of that than i did from gridiron gang um and i   did it after gridiron gang what's interesting  is i had done a film i wanted to tell a story   and i um for me it was about showing people what  i could do on a dime that's as you know if you've   read my book it's about making films for a dime  that turn and make a dollar that's what it's about   so for me i went out and we made this let's  just say twelve thousand dollar movie after   i put in a few grand on my credit card to  feed um i had a friend who was very tight   with sumner redstone who at the time who you know  he just passed but sometimes they had a viacom   and friend of mine got it to sumner  and said friend of mine made this   i don't know if you want to watch it or not i want  you to watch it and check it out he's like why   am i watching it well there's pretty girls in it  you'll like it but i want you to watch it for the   production value when you're done watching i want  you to guess what you made it for so sumner sat   through this 90 minute debuckery of mine it wasn't  a great story it just was a pretty movie and he   was pleased and impressed with it and glad he  watched it and he said oh i guess he probably   put a couple million into it and my friend said  well he actually put about 12 grand into it   sumner picked up the phone called brad gray god  rest him he's dead too picked up the phone and   called brad gray and said i just saw a movie  that apparently was made for twelve thousand   five hundred dollars i could have sworn it was  made for a couple million i need to get it to you   film got sent to brad i got a call from brad  gray the next day he said yeah i need you to   start meeting with our people we want to get you  in here i met with les moonves i met with michael   balbre who was running paramount at the time  and it opened up amy powell who was running   in surge which is you know did paranormal  activity and a lot of other great films and   that film opened up a lot of doors for me because  it showed people what i could do for a dime   and it and it allowed my investors to come back  out of the woodwork who i hadn't worked with in   many years because you know you go make a film  with sony you're not hitting people up for a   quarter million dollars to make movies you're  making a you know you're making a studio movie   so it reopened those great opportunities and  kind of just reminded me okay you don't need   big budgets to make something look nice now  we just got to focus on making better movies   and it's been a fun journey but yeah we um  david bulberry was the guy at paramount but um   it it opened those doors for me that  you know having a number one blockbuster   never got me so i really encourage people to  make those low-budget glossy good-looking films   if your story sucks they better look good and i  went in on the merit of guess what i did it for   and people thought you know six hundred  thousand most people who were in the know   figured 600 to a million it was a twenty  thousand fifteen thousand dollar movie   yeah that actually ended up being twelve because  didn't you you lost some of the money what was it   20 credits 20 or 25 000 was the original agreement  but because of our previous jaw with sag and those   actors we had to repay them for their first so we  lost about eight grand of sag so that came down   to about 12 and then you know we ended up you know  probably putting in about 2 800 of my own for food   and stuff so yeah you know about 15 000 wow how  long was the shoot how many times 12 days 12 days   shoot pick did it i did a day of uh i did a day  of second unit with two of the actors because   they were friends of mine they did it off the  grid you know i wanted them in the car driving   you know drive-bys and stuff and then i went out  and just grabbed a camera and just second united   the hell out of it you know got those great magic  hour shots and just filled up the just filled it   up with some pretty you know but it was well shot  it was well acted um you know we had sean young   betsy russell from saw ron masak who's been  in everything courtney gaines from children of   the corn i mean every face in it was recognizable  jason pace ryan um oh i'm blanking on ryan's name   it's my fault there was just some really good  talent in that film and uh i was proud of it   because it looked pretty it was a beautiful movie  it was a horrible movie but it was a beautiful   movie why was it horrible it was just stupid it  was you know i did i i did the first one which   was a pure story about a story i wanted to tell  and that was the pilot that i did for 500 bucks   and somebody saw it and said oh my god you got  to make a sequel to this and that was that was   the mistake story-wise there was no sequel but  somebody was throwing 20 bucks you know 20 grand   down to make a movie i'm not doing anything  this week let's do it you know and so we did it   do you think that if you'd had more time you  guys said it was a 12-day shoot if you'd had   more time would it have been better or no the  story was fundamental it was a horrible script   no it looked good i mean you know again as  a 15 12 to 15 000 movie that some people   thought we spent six hundred thousand to two  million to make so it visually was fine it was   it was just the script was written in like  a week and it was just in no development   notes it was like oh here was the prequel just  just let's just carry on and write and tell a   story and it was it was just you know it's  more of an experiment i see yeah it was fun   what's the shortest amount of time you've written  a script i did a 36 hour fade in to the end   for emmett and furla films um project called bad  news that i wrote for them and i did it and i did   it on a tuesday wednesday thursday without sleep  no drugs without sleep and i crashed thursday at   some point i physically collapsed in my condo  and i woke up at some point friday printed it   out called them and furlough drove it to them at  the warner lot and they optioned it they called me   monday said we love it it's exactly what we need  we want it that was that was three days nonstop   the lack of sleep help you get into a mindset was  it some type of a sci-fi fantasy no no it was an   action film it was i knew the story i wanted to  tell and emmitt and furlough were friends we had   done a film or two with them and they were buying  they were working with people at the time that i   worked with in the past they were working with  avi lerner and cassie elways and mark rifkin and   some of those guys from the late 90s that i had  worked with that were just cranking out these   10 to 20 million dollar action movie so i  knew what they wanted and they were they   were optioning scripts and they were paying to  do it and these guys i pitched george on it over   the phone and he said oh yeah that sounds  cool give me a script and this was like on   tuesday i hung up the phone it was like three  o'clock in the afternoon i just started writing   i started writing and i i collapsed at some  point thursday and realized that i wrote the end   and uh did you wake up and like the room was  spinning or what happened when did someone find   you i was living alone at the time it was after my  first uh my first divorce i was back living alone   uh you know us bachelors when we find  our way back to bachelorhood usually live   it was crazy it was just i remember that time  very vividly and i remember writing it tuesday   afternoon collapsing at some point thursday  and you know every when you wake up friday   everything's still a blur and i just remember  hitting print there was 96 pages and i just   hit print i punched hold them put a brad in them  called their office and make sure dow was there a   guy at the time who was head of of development and  i said dallas shane i'm coming will you give me a   pass he goes yeah yeah we're waiting for you dude  drove onto the warner lot gave it to dow and said   enjoy and george called me i think monday or two  and said yeah dude you got a deal this is great   i i will say george has better taste than  that this was 25 years ago but yeah that was   the fastest script i ever wrote wow yeah a lot of  coffee oh yeah crown and coffee i don't know why   crown oil and coffee oh wow i don't know how an  empty stomach oh wow yeah you gotta stay awake   wow and the little purple bag yeah probably smoked  a lot too so i went through a phase with smoking   a lot i think i probably went through about  19 packs of cigarettes that week good times   they got them vegan now i'm making up you know  trying to take care of myself now that i'm old that's just quite an image i can i can almost  see it yeah i can tell you another story similar   okay yeah please i'll tell you another funny  story somewhere we did no code of conduct   uh for for dimension which was miramax um it was  a 12 million film we shot we had a green light on   a script charlie sheen starred in it and we had  written it they didn't want to tell that story so   they brought two other writers on couple of great  guys ed masterson and bill gaqwa really cool guys   we ended up becoming very good friends for a long  time actually one of them bought a car from me   and we got to phoenix and the director and charlie  read the script and they go what the what the hell   is this and i said i don't know that's what they  sent you well we start shooting in 48 hours get   your laptop fade in so we rewrote the script in  arizona two days before we shot from page one   and just about page one rewrite that was another  all same time of my life it was within give or   take a few years so i was still able to do that  and how does that work with the original credit   who cares we're just a bunch of dumb people  making movies you know i mean they paid   they paid us we were producing the film they paid  the writers it was like they had to deal with the   writers anyway so those it was like we wrote the  film charlie brett michaels and i wrote the script   and then they agreed to make the movie we went  to phoenix to make the movie and then somebody   got in the mix and said that's not the script we  want to make and hire two writers didn't tell us   anything about it and just sent us a script the  guys never came out to arizona they were just two   guys in la that were told to rewrite a script  that they weren't happy with because it was   originally written for la and then they sent us  to phoenix for a 30 tax credit so we get there and   it's just the domino effect you change the script  like what the hell is this this isn't what we   you know charlie doesn't know why i'm here i  didn't agree to do this and it was our company   charlie brett and i had a company so yeah and they  just said come on dynamo and get some jolt cola or   you know get some coffee and fire it up  let's go and we did it we did a 48 hour   two days before we wrote or rewrote the whole  script and they i don't think they ever knew it   so what was what was our 47 like hour 47 i  remember being in the homestead village they   hadn't set us up in our homes yet they gave  us homes it was a 12 million film in phoenix   in the 90s that's a lot of money they had us  in a homestead village and we each had our own   unit and i remember being in brett's at his  cabinet i probably i probably smoked three   packs of cigarettes a day and just drank coffee  it was nuts and then there was a kenny rogers   roasters that that would deliver right at the end  it was like that that episode of seinfeld and i   was like just living on kenny rogers roasters  for like two weeks we were there and his last   48 hours went through like two buckets of chicken  it was brutal it was brutal it smelled in there   and then i had a day and a half and i remember  joe lando from dr quinn was co-starring in it   he was our bad guy and he was a dear friend  he still is and i remember going to my room   and collapsing and you know the sound of a  hotel phone ringing that loud chirp it woke   me up about 18 hours later and have you ever woken  up from asleep so deep do you feel like you know   you got punched by mike tyson and you just you're  incoherent i remember the phone ringing waking up   and literally i couldn't see my eyes were open  and i was i was like mike tyson on his hands and   knees when he got knocked out and he was reaching  remember when he was looking for his mouthpiece   that was me looking for the phone i answered  it i had the upside down parts of my ear   i was like hello and joe's like shane it's joe  it's like and and he to this day he still makes   fun of me because i know the story and he goes  dude are you okay okay oh yes and he goes i think   i caught you is sleeping or something i'm gonna  call you back and i remember it woke me up and i   remember i had to call him back and i couldn't  find him and i was worried something was wrong   but yeah that's that's what that was like we  started shooting i think the next morning at 5am   with the script that the three of you had had  written yeah and then the director decided at   5am he wanted to be in the movie and he wasn't  written in the movie and turned to me and said why   don't you direct the opening scene i'm going to be  in this so that was my first directing job really   without getting a job so i shot the opening scene  of no code yeah the director decided to be in it   has dealing with kovid been the most difficult  stretch for you in your entire film career   dealing with covet has not been an issue other  than things got shut down i had a film that was   ready to go that was green lit that we were going  to be shooting the june after the march start of   covid so that was disappointing i've never had a  green light on a film and watched it completely   go away that was kind of heartbreaking i felt bad  for the cast i felt bad for the crew um i am never   bored i always find something to do and we've been  very very productive during covid i think between   two writers and i we've created over 30 pride  three writers and i've created with 30 projects   six screenplays uh i got involved with a health  and wellness documentary i've been helping kind   of oversee for pure flix that's been fun um but  as i told you earlier i just got to the point   where i said it's time to go back to work and you  know people are working there's a way to do this   and i have a lot of friends who have gotten back  on set and they're working i've got partners up   in canada right now shooting a film for hallmark  got other friends that are here in town shooting   you know at siren they're doing the will ferrell  and julian moore film and they're back to work   so we're chomping at the bit so i'm just more  restless now ready to go what do you see as the   new normal post covid whether whether a vaccine  is found whether people want to take the vaccine   it's still around people are still being  cautious god if you're going to go two years   on this interview strand then you're going to  prove me wrong what do i think the new normal is   i think i think the independent filmmaker is  going to thrive i think those who wear many hats   and know how to make films on a dime are going to  thrive because i wouldn't feel comfortable taking   my normal investors investment now i i am  working with my investors at a fraction   at one-fifth of their normal investment  strictly because i don't want to be shut   down during another pandemic i don't want to risk  hurting a large crew getting people sick i mean   like everybody else we're talking about a care a  story with maybe two actors here and two here and   maybe their story lines will intersect maybe they  won't and knock this thing out in a short amount   of time with a crew of six or eight i think  we'll generally get back i think we'll get   i think we'll get to a point where  people are going to get very complacent   um i i compared to you know we did a film in  the everglades years ago with emmett and ferla   and the everglades and there's alligators  all around and your first day on set you're   paranoid to move you're looking and there's eight  to twelve foot alligators everywhere you look and   then about by day three you stop being paranoid  and you get a little more comfortable and then by   day four or five you're throwing a football  with somebody and then the guy's like dude   you need to step forward about three feet you  got an eight-foot alligator like literally   right behind you and i think that's how  this is going to become i think eventually   i i don't see a vaccine coming anytime  soon it's just not the way it works   and if they shipped it from overseas i wouldn't  take it so i think i don't stand alone in that   stance i think we're happy to wear masks and ppe  and let's get the story told um safety first but   it's that way anyway you know you're not going to  put people in dangerous situations so you figure   out a way to stay socially distant responsible  i think if a crew can quarantine together then   they can work together it's working and you know  it worked with football until they all went home   it's worked with basketball i think there's no  reason we can't do that with making our films   i think the new normal post covid while  we have it is going to be smaller crews   shorter dates of shooting uh and just you  know figuring it out you know figuring it out   shane what protocols are you going to take for  your upcoming film in this covid reopening well i   mean you first and foremost you have to quarantine  everybody out 14 days which is important i think   everybody needs to know that they're clean going  in you have to test three times a week anybody   who's acting and anybody who's in zone a zone  a is considered the director of the dp hair and   makeup department anybody who's coming in regular  contact with the actors and then anybody in zone   b would be tested once a week but when you have  a smaller crew they assume everybody's in zone   a so everybody gets tested three times a week  so we'll test three times a week i am going to   take temperatures at least twice a day i'd like  taking temperatures every morning and then every   day after lunch unless we had something  spicy for lunch we'll do it before lunch   and we're just going to kind of stay tight and be  a traveling circus and just keep it intimate and   tight not let any outsiders and not let anybody  from the inside go out it's like hey if you're   committing and you're in you're in if you're not  that's cool we can't we can't do this obviously   everybody's going to have to wear ppe masks are  going to be mandatory actors will have to wear   masks until we say let's roll action um actors are  going to have to be comfortable doing their own   hair and makeup even though we'll have somebody  that handles props hair and makeup and wardrobe   i can't have them hovering so i want actors to  come camera ready and they can be touched up or   not doing a project that's elaborate we're not  doing mulan rouge um wardrobe is going to be   owned by the cast we're going to use our own  wardrobe we're going to keep it minimal changes   we're going to use locations that we control we're  not interested in using these locations that are   used by the general public or rented or chartered  for the day they're going to be okay we're going   to his house we're shooting at his house today  he's been quarantining there for two weeks   we're going outside to this ranch we're  going outside to this wash we're we're gonna   do stuff outside we have very minimal inside  actually the only interior scenes that we have   is an office that has been closed for months  that a friend of mine owns that he's given us and   a cabin out in the mountains that has been  vacated now for going on a year so um we   know it's clean and that's it as everything  else is exterior or in a car and when you say   no one's going out so how do you how do you  ensure that the cast and crew i mean i realize   they're going to have very little down time  but somebody could sneak down too hey you know   what it's on it's on them if if they want to if  they want to jeopardize it i can't i'm you know   i i work with people i've known a long time and i  trust we're going to have a crew of six to eight   we're gonna travel we're going to we're going  to be a traveling circus so if somebody wants to   sneak out of the motorhome i'm going to probably  know they're sneaking out of the motorhome i mean   you know we got two motorhomes they each sleep  they'll age sleep 10 but we're gonna have a   crew of six and four actors so you know we'll  know that's the only way i do it is you gotta   you gotta keep some form of control you know  that's what's happened is football why is football   getting the covid problem right now because  everything was controlled when these guys were   at training camp because they were they were kept  in a bubble just like basketball successfully did   and then as we all said let's take an office  pool you want to go four weeks or five before   the nfl starts shutting down games well people  go home then they start traveling and then they   come back from a game then they go out with their  friends and then they go to a strip club or they   go wherever and then they go play a game and then  these two teams play and these guys mingle and   then they take it all with them and that's what's  happening that's why you're seeing games getting   canceled and teams getting shut down we you  know it's happening now we're only in week three   and we're not even in the cold season and isn't  that when covert is that's what i think is going   to be the worst so yeah i mean we're going to  we're going to take all the precautions necessary   um we're just yeah that's how we're that's  the only way we can do it it's the only way   we can do it do you see yourself  flying anytime soon i love flying   but i mean it depends we  have a plane in the movie too   and somebody will be flying we got a little  piper cub but i mean in terms of commercials   taking a commercial flight yes with recycled i i  would not right now want to go on a plane i would   knowing knowing whether or not i've been exposed  to covet is the big mystery in the house but let's   say i have i wouldn't want to get on a plane now  because i think for the first time in our lifetime   we're thinking about the air we breathe and the  close contact we make with people we don't know   and i because the way we've all had to rethink and  relook at tight spaces oh the thought of being on   a plane with people right now or ever i don't  want to do it how does a director build strong   relationships with her actors director builds  strong relationships with actors you know it's   all about trust it's an actor's gonna decide in  the first 30 seconds of meeting a director if this   is somebody they can work with they've they've  sized you up it's almost like having a blind date   they size you up when you walk through the door  what can i get away with what are they going to   command for me are they going to stretch me and  make me into something better or can i put this in   cruise control and just kind of ride it out and  what i found is i i like to listen to an actor   um i like to let an actor know that i i run a set  that's very relaxed i i'm not a yeller i i trust   i said if you're here it's because i trust you now  we just got to get to the point where you trust me   so i let actors know that you know what's  important to me is i get the movie that we   need to make give me what i need and i'll give you  what you want every time if you show up prepared   and you're able to give me and the time allotted  to do the scene what i need i will give you what   you want and i know nine times out of ten what  you want is going to be better than what i need   and i find when i tell and that's true that's  not lip service i don't say that to every actor   but you know when i'm dealing with my leads  and people that i trust that have earned that   i find that barrier comes down and they start to  get excited and realize that this is a safe place   you know i i learned something very interesting  from martin sheen when we were doing a film   together 100 years ago he was telling the story  when he had a heart attack on apocalypse now   and he was being wheeled into surgery and his  dear wife jan looked over him and said it's   only an f in movie martin and he told that  story but apocalypse now is one of the most   known films in our history it's huge and i  never forgot that story and i never forgot that   it's only a movie you know relationships are  forever there's 33 000 movies a year that   are probably made through sag why is this one  going to be any more special than the next or   less important than the next it's only a movie  we're not curing cancer we're not curing kovid   what's most important is people feel better after  the experience than they did coming into it for me   and i want my actors to feel respected i want them  to feel like they can grow i want them to feel   like they can challenge me because i hope i become  a better filmmaker because of our experience you   know and i think if you go in allowing an actor  to stretch their legs keep them reined in when   you have to but trust when you make a decision on  an actor that is who you have entrusted that role   and that story to be told by through their eyes  and their vision i think it's important to let   an actor feel like they they can have the freedom  to play and to explore and experiment and then as   a as a director and an actor i think you can find  that middle ground where you're getting the story   and the performance that you need as a filmmaker  but as an actor and an artist they're being able   to to fly in a way that they don't feel stifled or  congested or condemned and i think if you can find   that balance when you look at some of the great  relationships that some directors and actors have   i mean you can look at spielberg and tom hanks or  zemeckis and tom hanks when they work together on   castaway and some of the other films and um you  you try to get one 100th of that greatness or that   relationship and and i find that i i've never  walked away working from it never walked away   working with an actor regretting the experience  didn't matter who it was or what the project was   i've never walked away from an actor regretting it  and i hope they feel the same for me do you think   um most sets are as stressful as apocalypse  now was or or what percentage i should say   i think i ever reached that point i think a lot of  sets are unnecessarily stressful it's something i   talk about in my book i think especially young  filmmakers put so much stress and pressure   they are making a movie because goddammit it's  getting in the sundance are our bust and that is   like the least thing you should be worried about  make a good movie learn and enjoy this experience   you may never do it again it's like it's like they  tell you and rudy you know you may be putting on   the football uniform for the last time enjoy it  live in the moment and i tell filmmakers that   this could be your one and only chance to tell  a story as a director before it fails and you   have to go sell stocks or become an insurance  salesman or whatever it is that you could do   nothing wrong with that but being a filmmaker is  a dream okay there's very few people who can make   a living at it so i always tell people look this  is this could be the only time you're ever going   to do it you might as well enjoy it and i think  if you enjoy it and the people around you feel   that you're enjoying it it's going to be a much  more pleasurable experience when people are happy   they deliver better things i find that people  put unnecessary stress on themselves because   they they just don't see it with the end in mind  they're so worried about what they're getting   and i think that's the importance of being  knowledgeable in editorial every filmmaker   before they want to you know before they become  a director before they become a writer i think   they need to spend three to five years in  the edit bay fixing other people's mistakes   because one reason i'm able to maintain a good  demeanor i know when i make a film it's because   i know when i nail something how i'm going to use  it i know exactly how many frames of it i'm going   to use i know exactly where in the story i'm going  to use it and it just it's not arrogance it's just   confidence it's knowing the craft of telling  a story doesn't mean my movies are great but   i look at something and i don't overshoot  i don't get a lot of takes i don't need it   i trust my cameraman i trust my actors and i trust  myself to tell the story and i think if people   can just kind of and it goes back to hiring the  right people people can just kind of take a breath   and enjoy the moment and just realize that  we are so blessed to be able to do this   i think they'd be pretty surprised with the   the outcome that they get when they look at the  dailies i think they'd be pleasantly surprised   and with apocalypse now weren't there things just  completely out of copela's control that i mean   what they were going on with the government at the  time you know with with the different locations   there is things happen there is always problems  on a film and as i as i try to stress and we've   talked about earlier i over pre-produce a film so  that way when something when a little bit you know   wheel comes off the wagon or a lug nut gets loose  it's not a catastrophe i'll give you an example we   were doing our last film i wrote a part or you  know cj wrote a part with with my request for a   specific actor i was a big fan of i fell in love  with an actor on a show i knew i could get to them   and i wrote a part for them and we made a deal  and this actor was going to be part of the film   and long story short the day we showed up to shoot  i got a call from her agent she said her father   just died she's got to jump on a plane and go to  detroit we're so sorry just reschedule it she'll   she'll be back in five six days rescheduled i  said i wish i could it's the only time i'm here   we work at a very quick pace we got  to figure this out i said i'm going   to go to you first you have another actor you  want to give me that you feel can do the role   and he was funny he was like i can't believe  you're not freaking out i said no i'm concerned   about the actor and her well-being for her dad  i will reach out to her but i said i want you   to think about somebody you have on your roster  you've got you've got 20 minutes before i start   making calls to other agents and he called me he  said i've got somebody and i don't want to name   names but it ended up being a pretty damn good cat  and it's it's about not losing it it's about just   taking a breath and realizing it's only a movie  it'll all figure itself out that's what we have   to do you know um the only way to make it work you  know our biggest day of shooting on break even i   had nine cameras i had an entire cast and half my  crew get food poisoning at the hotel from bad ice   where our call time that day was 8 a.m we're  supposed to start rolling cameras at 10.   i think people started showing up around 12 30  or 1 the ones that did show up and didn't go   to the hospital and i didn't start shooting my  biggest day of the film until 1 30 2 o'clock and   i i had a choice i could yell and scream i could  throw a fit i could kick a seagull was it the   ocean and i realized getting upset wasn't going to  make my casting group better it was only going to   let my existing cast and crew realize i was  out of control and i decided to just deal   with what we got let's make it work and you  know it worked of course when i watched the   scene back i wish i would have had more time  of course when i watched a scene back i wish i   would have gotten more angles but i'm pleased  with what we got and because of my knowledge   in post i knew exactly how we had to do this now  with a fraction of the time and it just comes from   confidence in telling a story being understanding  the editorial process so those are things that   are out of your control you know shot another  scene and there was a construction you know we   went and scouted it got a permit had a whole  scene and it turned out they started building   a house or demolishing a house right across  from it you know what do you do that's out   of your control and it's a very dialogue heavy  scene that you know you're not going to loot   so you you find the nicest person and the  most reasonable person on your crew to go   over and talk to the foreman and work out say hey  we're here for two hours can we do this can we   we go you go we go you go and they worked with  us you know it's what it's about what did gary   busey teach you about being a director gary busey  taught me so much about being a director the first   narrative i ever directed start gary busey  so talk about you know baptism under fire   um gary is unbelievably talented gary is he bro  you know he brought 40 years to the table i mean   there's a guy had done you know 75 movies when i  worked with him at this point here i was directing   my first i of course produced and written a lot of  stuff and never directed before so i learned how   to take a punch and i don't mean physically i mean  i learned how to take a punch and learn how to   to improvise i learned how to be strong because  when you're working with an actor like your   abuse you're the late dennis hopper those guys are  constantly testing you they they get more pleasure   out of trying to break you to find out how tough  you are and they're going to decide what they're   going to give you with your toughness and i found  you know when i produced a film with marlon brando   and i know his tricks and what he used to do to  directors and i'd watch him do it and he would   give two takes that were almost identical and see  which one the director liked better and if he knew   the director like the one he didn't really care  about then he he phoned it in he didn't care and   he he messed with directors and gary messes with  directors and dennis messed with directors and i i   encourage new filmmakers to go work with guys like  that because if you can cut your teeth on that   it's it's gonna you're gonna learn you're gonna  have seven years of film school in one day with a   guy like that and what was really cool about gary  is the way he helped me develop the character and   work through the character and what he demanded  and commanded of me as a filmmaker before we   started he was very involved in working this out  and making it happen and then when he showed up on   set it was so neat i remember we did take one and  i remember i said and cut and eternity goes notes   give me notes and i was like i got 25 people  looking at me waiting for me to go tell gary   busey academy award winner or academy award  nominee golden globe guy you know tell him and   i was scared to death and i walked up to him and i  realized what it was it was a show and i just went   up to i put my hands on his elbows to see gary  that was freaking brilliant i want to get it again   will that make you happy and you look at me and  goes dude come on they're all looking at us give   me a goddamn note alec i said a little bit more  pause when you go to sit down before you give   him that line that you know and he goes there we  go and that was the only noted game all day just   because he wanted a note and i was so out of my  league at the time and it's so out of out of the   you know knowing how to deal with the moment and  he covered me but he he he didn't need the note   he he showed up more prepared than anybody and  just knocked it out of the park and did exactly   what i had hoped he would and we had rehearsed  it but he tried to toughen me up and show me   that i need to be more vocal as a filmmaker in  front of people don't just say action cut that   was great let's get it again you know that was it  it's about interacting and i learned so much from   that experience and you know i've worked with some  great actors you know like jane seymour and you   know dennis hopper and you know good lord the list  goes on and on and um every one of those gives so   much to each project that we've done together  and i learn so much but gary yeah gary gary   was baptism by fire he kicked my ass right into  gear that was i knew once i once i rapped on busy   life got really easy it's amazing why would  an actor on that level of that caliber want   to test someone they it's about i think control  it's about how much i am willing to give and i'm   not it's like i look at it as a relationship if  you're in a relationship with somebody and you're   interested in taking that next level of intimacy  you're going to put some feelers out to see if   this is somebody that you can trust and go that  deep with emotionally and i think actors like   to try to break you down some of them are just  flat out [ __ ] and like to control a set and   those are who they are and gary was not that  way at all what he wanted to do is he wanted   to see he wanted to push my limits to see how  much he was willing to give back and the reason   he wanted to do the film it's a funny story i  sent the script to his son jake to play a part   gary intercepted it called me and said jake's  not available he's in miami doing a pilot for nbc   i read the script who's playing earl cooper and  i was like uh uh and there was an actor kind of   attached and he goes well i want to play it i've  done 75 films and i've never read a character   like this or been able to play this part and i'd  really like to play them i mean i i sorry to kind   of bogart the script but i i want to do it he  wasn't looking for a job he was busy and i wasn't   paying anything so it wasn't like he was getting  any money um so i went and met with him at his   house and we talked and just the first time i sat  with an actor of that caliber and listened to him   break down a script that i wrote and what he did  is he taught me the importance of what happens off   the page you know he said look you you know shane  you've given me you've given me page one to page   88. i'm more interested about what's before page  one and that's his story you know and gary went   into this guy's childhood and what made him who  he is today and it it really opened my mind as a   storyteller and as a writer and as a director  because now i understood how actors thought   so it was an amazing experience that i  would work with gary 100 times over and   you know twice on sunday it was a great experience you

Channel: Film Courage

Views: 20,232

Rating: 4.8972602 out of 5

Keywords: Screenwriting tips, screenwriting advice, screenwriting 101, screenwriting for beginners, screenwriting techniques, writing a screenplay, how to write a movie, Filmmaking tips, filmmaking 101, filmmaking for beginners, filmmaking techniques, making a movie, what you don’t learn in film school, Shane Stanley, filmcourage, film courage, interview, producing a movie, gridiron gang

Id: VBcQVQ2ZaMI

Length: 213min 42sec (12822 seconds)

Published: Sat Jun 05 2021

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