What We Learn From Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Conversion to Christianity

this is not about bandwagoning um this is about a precious Soul who is discovering truth and somebody who is emblematic I think of a certain movements we've gotten tired of the new atheism and we've recognized that the question whether God exists or not is much less important than the question which God actually exists because we're all believers we all have a Transcendent we are all theologians we just need to return to the true word of God who is Jesus Christ in my last video we spoke about ion hery Ali's article called why I am now a Christian actually two weeks before she wrote that article she appeared at the conference called Arc the alliance for responsible citizenship she was on a panel discussion Jordan Peterson was chairing she was flanked by two prominent Christians John Anderson former deputy Prime Minister of Australia and Oz Guinness a Christian and the author of many many Christian books and yet on this panel discussion who is it who names Christianity it's Aon hery Ali and that's what's fascinating to me is because ion hery Ali has copped a little bit of flak from Christians who are saying she is not sufficiently clear in the the heart of her Christian convictions when she says why I am now a Christian um and sure um perhaps she has not articulated the Christian Gospel as clearly as an evangelist like myself might have wished And yet when she is asked to publicly identify the better story at the heart of Western Civilization she is the one who names Christianity and the two Christians on either side of her do not let's see how she talks about Christianity when Jordan Peterson first asks her about it so I would ask you Ian like how how do you now we haven't spoken for years how do you now conceptualize the difference between let's say the truth that Oz is pointing to and power itself you accept that there is a power Transcendent above us and that idea that there is something above us a higher power power I think that that is rooted in Christianity it's rooted in the judeo-christian Traditions it's interesting she says it's rooted in Christianity and then she sort of corrects herself and she kind of does the does the cultural civilizational Christian speak it's rooted in Christianity it's rooted in the Judean judeo Christian Heritage but her first instinct was to say it's rooted in Christianity which I I think is interesting and in many ways it is superior to the nihilistic init type um atheistic theology atheistic theology she's absolutely right so you you have to have a a power that is transcendent of the human that gives the human worth and dignity or you descend into an atheistic theology interesting she uses that that phrase that is like nature because if there is nothing above man that gives man dignity well then man gives himself dignity it but then you've got to ask the question well which men give themselves dignity and you end up being well the elite ones right and they become the over men and the weak can be cast off you need to have a higher power transcendant source of value that that gives to humanity its inviable worth and dignity without that you do descend into into nature fascinatingly Steven Pinker wrote once about how you could construct uh a morality from merely looking at the human person and he once wrote look if virtue is equated with sacrifices that benefit one's own group in competition with other groups then fascism is the ultimate virtuous ideology and a commitment of Human Rights is the ultimate form of selfishness we're just looking at my tribe competing against your tribe so that we can out compete you and evolve um then why wouldn't you plump for fascism and why wouldn't you identify human rights as the problem rather than the solution if we are just looking at the human person we do not get to a sense of the humanism that we all prize so aan hery Ali is absolutely right that without God you don't get humanism so I I think she's outflanked and outmaneuvered Stephen Pinker I don't I don't think I don't think she has failed to grasp what humanism offers I think Steven Pinker has failed failed to grasp what humanism is grounded in it is superior to the nihilistic init type um atheistic theology um that human beings can do and they can create everything and they can they can manipulate and it's also Superior I would say to the faith that I grew up in um with a God and a Theology and a story that gives individuals a sort of onedimensional purpose go and do this make everyone a Muslim and if they refuse kill them and then the day of judgment will come and life will be over that's a simple story but it's it's an abiding story it's been around for, 1400 years the judeo Christian tradition that it is not up to the human being to do that but all we can do is civilize and continue to civilize and question so the whole Islam thing so she's doing exactly the same thing she did um in the article I wonder if she even had written a draft of the article by the time um she went to the art conference it's only two weeks in advance of the unheard article being published but it is it's the same thing like are we going to go n are we going to go with Muhammad um actually Jesus stands Upstream from both of those perversions right and he is he is the source of the values that we prize but then what what do you do if you don't actually believe in God um 10 minutes on in the interview and Ian Hy Aly addresses that very question yeah I think that the the in the west we made this mistake of having a debate about uh is there a god is there a God and then having everybody weigh in and twisting ourselves into pet Souls there is no God there is a God which is I think and and I've come to realize over time that is a waste of time it's not in the least helpful I think what we should have done instead what we should do instead is compare the different concepts of God that Humanity has come up with and the different stories that humans have told each other about that what is transcendent that is fascinating to me now you might hear her saying that and think oh okay so she just wants to be a cultur civilizational Christian and she doesn't want to be a theist in any sense she doesn't actually want to encounter God I she's not saying that remember she's just told you that n was a theologian she's just told you that um you can have a kind of an Enlightenment humanism that has its own theology because it has its own concept of what is highest in life and what is transcendent even if it is not God in the classically scriptural sense or God in the classically quranic sense everyone is dealing with faith therefore we all need to interrogate what is transcendent and we all need to have a look at the stories people have told that actually give us a sense of what is transcendent she's not saying you can be a Christian atheist okay she's showing up in church Sunday by Sunday she is very aware that everybody has a God she's telling us do not have a discussion about is there a god she's telling us which God is there right which God are you going to have cuz cuz you got to serve somebody and what I find appealing for instance about the judeo-christian story is that it that Transcendent power ends up being a story about Freedom about tempering power about establishing institutions and establishing teachings that give unto Caesar what is seases that you know don't matter don't basic Maybe univers so human decency then becomes um that that's your religious that's how you worship your Transcendent that story is superior to a number of other stories that I know and I think that's the story we should be having and if you have that story and if you have that Legacy and you've inherited that then then you not only appreciate it but you also fight to preserve it so I think she's on a journey and she I think I think there's more to come on this journey because I she is saying okay if you can't wrap your head around the Transcendent well what is the story in which that human dignity is preserved and it is really only preserved in the story in which God takes flesh okay the story of God the human is the story in which you have a Transcendent value to for Humanity and in no other story and if you think that you don't have a concept of transcendence you're wrong everybody has a theology everybody has a Transcendence but here is a way into investigating the the various stories rather than having an abstract debate about whether there is some kind of Creator out there or not um and and to that degree I would I would agree with her I found it very interesting um Dr J Richards on Twitter um kind of formulated this argument um as a philosophical argument and he said on Twitter um just the other day um imagine walking someone through the steps of this argument you just say number one I'm far more certain of the truth of my moral convictions a b and c then I am certain that atheism is true so like if you believe in human worth and dignity equality that compassion is a virtue um no people are property there freedom of the individual The Arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards Justice you believe in progress like whatever it is okay come up with these um moral convictions and I outlined seven of them in my book um the air we breathe but take any three let's just just take human rights okay I'm far more certain of the truth of my moral conviction in human rights than I am certain that atheism is true okay like what what do you think is more true are you absolutely certain this is a Godless Universe right or let's try on a different conviction for size um every human being is valuable and just because you're rich doesn't make you more valuable which are you more committed to like which do you which which do you believe more strongly I'm absolutely certain this is a Godless Universe are you can are you certain of that or or or what about what about the belief I think we are all the moral equals of each other no matter your race class ethnicity religion gender sexuality no matter no matter what we are all the equals of one another are you more sure of that or are you more sure that this is definitely a Godless Universe I think most of my friends even if they're not Christians they they they are they are more sure of th those moral certainties those moral convictions so then here here's the argument from Dr J Richards he says well let's take let's take that these moral convictions as given okay all right if that's the thing you're most certain of and you're not going to you're not going to get mathematical certainty about any of this stuff let's just take that as given step two a b and c don't make a lot of sense given atheism you're the moral equal of everyone else why because we're all just clever chimps in the struggle for survival ah it doesn't really work right we are descended from apes so we must love one another no it doesn't make sense okay so a b and c these moral convictions don't make a lot of sense given atheism step three A and C are consistent with and seem to follow from the truth claims of Christianity historically that's where I think they did come from logically I think that is the only place where they are properly grounded then step four ab and C historically emerged from a broadly Christian culture they did and if you don't believe me just read Dominion okay get Tom Holland pilled and that will help you with step four and then five given 1 through four the truth of Christianity seems more likely than the truth of materialism and Atheism now interestingly like on Twitter I like I said to him look I I love that that argument what's step six like like even if you get to step five okay the truth of Christianity seems more likely than the truth of atheism now what well now I think you do what ion her Ali does and just go to church Sunday by Sunday to discover more or you crack open the Bible or do both of these things crack open the Bible and and get to know the Jesus who is the root of all these other things but that's that I think I might be misreading things entirely but that I think is the kind of Journey that iron hery Ali is on and you have a mirror to hold to the other the other gods that are presenting themselves as omnipotent and I I just I just really I really enjoy that as a way of thinking about don't don't think don't think whether God exists think which God exists that is a far more interesting and fruitful line of inquiry and she's absolutely right that the new atheists just just had the wanted to have this argument and then a whole bunch of Christian apologists agreed with him that that was the argument to have about whether God exists but actually let's let's all recognize that we're all theologians we all have a concept of the transcend which God is it who is really God interestingly Jordan Peterson points to a a similar kind of Route towards some kind of religious devotion anyway let's let's let's see how he puts it at about the 38 minute Mark our civilization is predicated on the assumption that we have a certain set of Rights let's say and you might think of those as resting on the assumption that were're of intrinsic value right but if you don't hypothesize the ex in some some Transcendent domain in which ethics itself resides that's a good way of thinking about it then you're stuck with the problem of trying to understand on what do those rights rest and if there's nothing that's outside if there's nothing Transcendent and nothing outside the state then your rights become dependent on the state and then it seems to me that the state de facto becomes God that's right now I think that's a fascinating theological point at the end he sort of makes it into a political point and I think this this this certain um political points that might flow from it but first and foremost it it is a it is a theological and an ethical Point um either human rights are trans Transcendent and belong to the realm of the Transcendent in which you're basically giving a Transcendent value to the human and like you you literally can't do that unless you've got God the human like like if you if you like those human rights do you you like them you need Jesus right you absolutely need Jesus and it's Jesus or the pit it absolutely is Jesus or the pit I mean that that that is the the outcome of all these kinds of of arguments what's fascinating is that this um panel discussion was was all about the better story what what is the better story that we should tell and the arc conference was entitled a better story because um it was run by Philip estrad who picked up this phrase from Evangelical Christian Glenn Harrison and his wonderful book the better story right um it was an incredibly Christian Conference like like 8 5% of people there when they were asked like are you a Christian they put their hands up and yes they were like um and yet on the platform there are heck of a lot of Christians I mean probably predominantly there were people of faith on the platforms but so often when the story was meant to be articulated we just went back to a kind of a classical liberal like idea we just went back to you know secular humanism and a rights-based international order okay and there were missed opportunities and and interestingly Oz Guinness in here you know he he talked about like why are we in the position we're in well we're a cutf flower civilization and it's a phrase he's always using where a cut flower civilization but he doesn't talk about what the root was doesn't name Jesus the Bible the scriptures Church Christianity were a cutf flower kind of civilization and and so I was getting us another out andout Christian and yet he's not really naming what the true root is and the problem problem without with with when you don't name what the true root is then you're you're always going to invite people to come back to the fruits as though the the real way of coming back to the source of the the values that we love is to get back to the 18th century and to get back to but that is the fruit that's not the root we need to get back to the root and and what was fascinating is after Oz Guinness said we a cut flower civilization which like if you don't round out that thought you might imagine that all we need to do is just get back to the 18th century or even if you might just think we just need to get back to the 15th century you might even just think we need to get back to the fifth century um but it's going to be a a a conservative project if you don't round out the thought well what have we been severed from we've been severed from Christ but what did Christ give us he didn't give us a a cut flour and say make the best of it he gave us seed seed to sew and I hery Ali finishes with a beautiful extension of that analogy an extension that is far more Christian than the analogy that the Christians on either side of her used so you early in your life relatively early in your life you moved away from a um a totalizing religious view of the world and I don't exactly know into what you then moved whether that was a secular humanism but what I'm hearing from from you now and and I I believe this is also the case with your husband that is amazing okay so basically Jordan Peterson has outed her husband Neil Ferguson who is a very um famous historian and a great public intellectual in his own rights you and your husband so when you imagine iron helli like sliding into a Pew on Sunday morning like probably imagine her husband Neil Ferguson with her this like something's happening don't you think something's happening so amazing you have come to to a new understanding of the existence of the Transcendent per se and also of your relationship with it now first of all do I have that right and second of all like is that is that the movement that you have made and if so why so I rebelled against a Transcendent a concept of God of a God that now manifests itself in you know the Iranian regime um Hamas Isis that was the god I grew up with that was the story that I grew up with I rebelled against that and then when I uh was bold enough to say and this was in the Netherlands um I I don't want any of that I didn't convert to Christianity I didn't convert to another religion or another God I carried with me this idea uh the you know the three letter word of God stands just for evil and my best friends became Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchins and Richard Dawkins these are people I still love and adore um and I think over time I'm now 53 and so when I made this when I was in this state of rebellion it started for me when I was 32 years old over time I've come to realize and I wish Christopher was alive today to comment on what we are going through was we were actually having a conversation about in my view The Wrong conversation does God exist you know it was the world built in six days uh do we believe in fairy tales and that was the wrong conversation to have the right conversation to have as I said earlier was to compare what we as human beings the Transcendence that we have imagined and developed over centuries and so now I can say I am proudly of judeo Christian religion without having to waste your time about do I really think that the world was built in six days do I really believe everywhere in the Bible no but I do believe that that judeo-christian tradition and what it has brought forth is those are the values that I aspire to the values by which I live I was called a Christian by Roger Roger scrutin in 2008 and I said Roger no I'm not a Christian and he said but you act like a Christian and you behave like a Christian therefore you are a Christian and I think that is that's exactly what I would like to say to Richard Dawkins it's you act like I've been to you know Coral music with him which he enjoys very much and he's one of the most Christian people I know and so I think we've been having this yes we've been having this time wasting debate and you know you grow up I matured here I am so isn't that brilliant that's just um a really helpful Way Forward for people who got mired in the new atheism they had a conversation about whether God exists and really they should have been having a conversation about which God exists because everybody has a theology everybody has a sense of the Transcendence she's just said that everybody has a sense of the Transcendent which God is really God the question is not is there a God but which God will be God for you and when you look at the fruit of what the Jesus revolution has brought to us then that is a a decent argument for taking seriously the root who is Jesus Christ now that is not the the sum total of what Christianity is the sum total of Christianity is not the human rights that it's given us in the rights-based international order and all that sort of stuff th those are one kind of fruit that has come off one part of the tree um the the true nature of Christianity is to go back to Jesus Christ Christ but it's it's not a bad way in by their fruits you shall know them says Jesus in Matthew chapter 7 it's not a bad way if you can like pull at those threads and find the source of them in Jesus Christ that's not a bad way to come to Faith and then at the end of this panel discussion she's surrounded by Christians okay Jordan pet I don't know about Jordan Peterson I'll do a video about him very shortly but um to her left and to her right there is John Anderson who's a Christian there is Oz Guinness who is a Christian neither of them have named Christianity in the way that she has on this panel it's all about the better story that we can tell and where the West has come from they haven't actually named Christianity um you might prefer that iron her Ali had named Jesus and said Jesus is the source of all this and I believe in God you might have preferred that I might have preferred that but the actual Christians are on on the panel with her didn't name Christianity either she actually goes further than either of them o Guinness talks about how we've come from a cut flower Society we're a cut flower civilization and we can't have the bloom without the roots now that that is true but you need to put it in its proper context what what are The Roots the Roots are Jesus right um Jesus is the roots of the of the fruits and you need to actually get connected to him rather than just conserve a dying flower rather than just get back to where wherever you think the the flower was cut and some people might think the flower was cut in 1963 and other people might think the flower was cut in 1776 or they might might think the flower was cut in the 1700s or they might think the flower was cut in 1517 or or or whatever it is but that's a that would be to put it in a radically just conservative frame and all we want to do is get back to the past I think aan hery Ali puts things in a very Christian frame because she says you know what we need we don't need to preserve a cut flour we need to scatter seed isn't that what Jesus said this is how she rounds out the whole discussion you know Western Civilization is a cut flow and cut flowers die that is true cut flowers do die but what we have in terms of Western Civilization is a lot of seed packets and I want to send you off with these seed packets which you find in libraries which you find in you know Wise people like C scrutin like all these other people that I mentioned uh in statues we have the remnants the symbols of Western Heritage and their seeds and all we have to do those of us who inherited it and enjoy it is to go and Seed them grow them nurture them water them and when they attacked fight for them and she gets a big and she gets a big round of applause okay now the seed really is the word of God According To Jesus Matthew Chapter 13 and that is the seed but that if we have that understanding that our our goal is not get not to get back to some kind kind of civilizational moment but to appreciate the Transcendent value of God the human Jesus Christ and that he's given us a living seed that has a life of its own and that will bring something else about I mean who cares about the West at the end of the day the West is not inevitable the kingdom is inevitable the West is not the West will come and go the the kingdom of Jesus Christ is forever and it's built on the seed of the word now I on her Ali I rejoice in the Journey that you're on and I Rejoice that you are um learning more Sunday by Sunday as as you go to church um keep getting into uh that seed packet the word of God keep encountering the Jesus whose Revolution that we are living in um this is not about bandwagoning um this is about a precious Soul who is discovering truth and somebody who is emblematic I think of a certain movement we've gotten tired of the new atheism and we've recognized that the question whether God exists or not is much less important than the question which God actually exists because we're all believers we all have a Transcendent we are all theologians we just need to return to the true word of God who is Jesus Christ as I said I'm going to do uh more videos perhaps about this Ark conference I'd love to do a video about uh Jordan Peterson's final talk at ARK and uh try and figure out this cultural moment and and what these guys are all on about but um if you want to find out more about the true seed that has actually given rise to uh this civilization then uh you got to get back to the Bible so I'd crack open a Bible or we've got a tool to help you it's called 321 you can go to 321c course.com and you can have a look at how Jesus planted this revolution in the soil of this world and the results of it have been absolutely breathtaking but let's go back to the source and figure out who is Jesus who is God what's the world like what are you like According To Jesus you can go to 321 course.com and uh why don't you subscribe to our Channel we'd love to see you again on the next video thanks so much for joining us bye-bye

Channel: Speak Life

Views: 7,215

Keywords: glen scrivener, speaklife, ayaan hirsi ali, ayan hirsi ali

Id: ULZ3IDmH5kU

Length: 28min 12sec (1692 seconds)

Published: Fri Nov 17 2023