What Is True Endurance? | Rich Roll Podcast

Adam Skolnick, are you ready? It doesn't matter if I'm ready, I'm here. You are, and it's happening. We are back with a hotly awaited new edition of Roll On. We are in, Mr. Skolnick and I blather and pontificate on matters. That sounds- Both pertinent and possibly irrelevant, depending upon the mindset, I guess. Good news and bad, a little show and tell, we answer some listener questions from our voicemail. If you're interested in having your question fielded by us ring us up at [phone]. Quick reminder, before we get into it, if you enjoy all the free content that we diligently toil here to create, it would be very meaningful if you could take a second to hit that subscribe button on YouTube or wherever you enjoy the audio incarnation of the show, leave us a comment, share the show with your friends or on social media. Also another reminder that we recently created a clips channel on YouTube. So if you're into sampling the show or wanna indulge in just the nuggets, including we put up a discreet short videos of all the questions that we get and answer. So you can find those there. We dropped those videos pretty much every day. So check it out, link in the show notes and in the description below on YouTube or you can just search Rich Roll Podcast clips on YouTube. Also "Voicing Change" update, this is the podcast coffee table book that we created. Some of you might know that we ran out of stock just before Christmas, right in the midst of the gifting season and we- That's great timing. And suddenly didn't have enough to ship, much to the chagrin of people who were looking to gift this. It is a great gift. That is one of the lessons learned when you're self publishing. How many books do you order? But we have re-upped and the new stockpile is on roots and should be here in the next couple of days. So we'll be shipping in the next week. Second printing. Second printing, that's right. And you were just signing a bunch of other books this weekend, right? I saw on your Instagram. Yeah, the cookbooks. The cookbooks. So if you want signed- How many printings have you done to that? I mean, well, those are with major publisher so it's different. Okay. They always seem to have stock on hand. Okay. Yeah, we were signing those. We offer signed copies of all our books, "Plantpower Way," "Plantpower Way Italia," "This Cheese Is Nuts," "Finding Ultra," you can get signed version of those through my website, richroll.com. And "Voicing Change," you can learn more about and grab your signed or unsigned version of that book at richroll.com/vc. I owe my wife a subscription to Julie's Cheese. Sri mu? Yeah. You owe it to her. I told her I was gonna buy- Have you promised her? I promised her and I haven't signed up yet. Have you guys tried it yet? No. Oh, you haven't. No. Oh, remind me to bring a couple wheels next time. Okay. You should at least try it. Yeah. It's fantastic. No, I know she wants it. She's killing it right now. That's the one thing she misses the most. Growing this company, she's got a lot of excitement around what she's doing. A lot of momentum, so it's pretty cool. It is cool. Yeah. Is she gonna be in retailers at some stage? Well, you can get it at Erewhon right now. Okay. That's the only retailer. She just did a kind of collaboration with a monthly wine subscription service where they kind of combined a package but it's mostly a direct to consumer subscription box model. There'll be some retail outlets at some point to be determined. But the focus of what she's trying to build is that direct to consumer model. It's a great model. Yeah. Cool. So good to see you. Good to see you brother. Been two weeks since we did this. How's it going? It's going good, yah, life is good. Just been busy and we're deep, we're doing so brewery in my house. Oh, you are? Yeah. It's always so brewery at my house. (Adam laughs) I know, but I'm not sober, but- You picked the shortest month of the year to do it? That shows how not sober I am. Okay. How's it going? It's going good. We're on day 15. Yeah, no, it's fine. I mean, I'm not, I don't, we don't indulge too much. Although the, you know, just a cocktail or a glass of wine here or there. So it's not like it's a big lifestyle change for me. Right. But it is like empty calories change, which is nice. So I do feel like I've gotten a little bit lighter. Well, this fits nicely into this fitness challenge that you brought upon yourself. So let's talk about that. Let's do that. How do you wanna talk about it? Well, tell me what you're working towards right here and we'll dive into it. Well, it's funny. I mean, I don't feel like necessarily, wasn't necessarily working towards it but we know David Goggins is doing his four by four by 48. I don't know if you listeners have not seen Goggins Instagram. It's a challenge he does once a year. It's from March 5th to March 7th, starts at 8:00 PM on a Friday, ends, the last run, I believe is 4:00 PM Sunday or 8:00 PM Saturday, I forget how it works. But every four hours from 8:00 PM Friday to till it ends on Sunday for 48 hours, you run four miles. And so at the end of that two day period, you've run 48 miles. And so I saw it happen last year. I was not gonna get involved in that. I think we had just done ÖTILLÖ and I just, I wasn't gonna do it. This year, I've done a lot more running and I decided I thought I would do it. And then I kind of casually mentioned to David and he he basically locked it down. And so I'm doing it and you know, the way I talk about it is I'm not trying, I don't say I'm trying to do it, I say I'm doing it, so. Yeah, you can't just casually mention it to David. Like, I'm thinking about like, No. You know if you do that like, he's gonna hold you to account. I think I wanna do this. So, so far haven't been training in any specific way. The last month I ran 110 miles. So this month, you know, it's been about 25 mile weeks basically for me, just in general. And I feel like I'm capable of doing it. I don't know, I mean, my weeks the way they work is there's typically a longer run on a Sunday and you know, four to five mile run. Some of them with intervals, some of them just zone two during the week. So I think I plan on adding a little mileage, going, leading up maybe doing a couple of 10 mile runs and stuff like that. But we had talked about something. So I want Rich's training. Well, first of all, you are working with a coach, right? Yeah. This Enval guy. Oh, yes. So I'm working with Nicole- Swimrun champion. Yes, the swim run champion who owns Enval. And let me make sure I have his name correct before I screw up. You don't know the full name? No, I know, I call him Nicholas. This shows me, this is telling me a lot. That's called a character reveal. Is it, really? I just know, now I know how deeply emotionally invested you are in this. Wait, I wasn't ready. Nicholas Ramirez. Okay. And he's French actually, and lives in Sweden. And he's been talking to me, but he has not come back with a training plan yet for this. He's just been giving me like, runs to do and show up in my garment and I do them. And he so far has not been like personally coaching me hardcore on anything. 'Cause I don't have anything on the calendar. I told him about this, he has not given me anything specific other than just say the main thing is in, most people want to lay on the couch after you do the four miles because you think you need a lot of rest. But he's saying don't do that. Don't let your legs get heavy, make sure you're not doing that. And so he's told me that. David gave me some advice on nutrition. Like, you know, what he does anyway, smoothie, you know, before you run, you know, then meals after you run kind of thing to make sure and making sure you get ahead of your nutrition, you have stuff prepared ahead of time. The second day he says, it's very exhausting. So, you know, that's when people like take more naps on the second day. Right, right. Meaning I guess Saturday to Sunday. So I don't know, I mean, I'm just, I am kind of wing, like I do, like I did in ÖTILLÖ kind of wing. You're kinda like, well I kinda doing this, but clearly there's no, there's no succinct plan in place right now. So I have lots of thoughts about this. I've winged my whole career and it's working out. Right, but what, Adam, what are you capable of if you actually formulated a plan? Like how to write a five-year plan? That's the growth opportunity. It is. Well, there's lots of growth opportunities here. I mean a few thoughts. Right, okay. I got plenty to say about this. I think what's great about talking about this is that we can talk in a more meta global way about the power of endurance and endurance challenges and talk a little bit more at length about how you plan for approach and participate in challenges like this which I think is something that a lot of the people who are watching or listening, you know, spend a lot of time thinking about as well. So I think it's a good opportunity to do that. First, I love this challenge for lots of reasons, not the least of which is, you know, it's led by you know, by commandant David Goggins, right, so he will hold you to account and, you know, I love how in the little sign-up area, it's like cost, $0. You know. Yeah, yes. Like this is all about you and you, but also this sense that like David is peering at you from on high and is not gonna let you get away with anything which I think you know in general, is a lot of excitement and- Any checks in before each run with a motivational kind of- It's a social media driven thing. It is. With a lot of engagement on his behalf. And, but you also, you can sign up on his website so specifically get involved in it. You can raise money for a charity through it but you don't have to sign up. He's like, it doesn't matter if you sign up, but it's the whole point. Like you could do it your way. Right, it's not about that. Yeah. The second thing is that I love about this is that it's hard, but it's also accessible. Like it's very hard, but also it's extremely doable. It's similar to the 29029 thing. Like, what do you just, you just hike up this mountain and you take the chairlift now? Like, it doesn't seem that hard, but because you're trying to achieve the elevation of Everest, like you're going through the night and you know, it's not until you're like 2/3 of the way into it that people realize like, oh, this is harder than I imagined. And I think this is similar in that regard. You're essentially running an ultra with breaks. Right. It's a 48-mile run that is like an interval workout. Yeah. On some level. But because it's only four miles at a time, it just feels doable. Like how hard is that? I've run four miles, like, I can wrap my head around. That's exactly how I got suckered into this. Great, but I also think that it's worth taking seriously and looking at it as an opportunity to more deeply connect with yourself as an athlete. Yeah. And to figure out like how you approach these things. And I think, so when is this, in early March? March 5th. March 5th, so- So my overall plan, by the way, the reason I'm doing any of this is because I am an older dad, right. And my plan is just to, is to, you know, train for that, like to stay around and stay and stay active and be able to chase him down and not like have my late game fatherhood impact him in any way. That's like he's gonna even notice. It's a highly laudable goal. Yeah. Like that should be the goal for you. That's my goal. It's a great goal. There's only so much that we can do at this point given that this challenge is only three weeks away. So it's not like you've got six months to prepare for this thing, you've done what you've done leading up to it, you've put in some miles. So you're comfortable running distances, but you've never done anything that involves sleep deprivation or anything that involves this number of miles in such a compressed period of time. And so when I think about how you can best prepare yourself for this, there's a couple things. First of all, nothing about this involves speed or power. This is all about resilience and persistent motion. You don't need to go out and do intervals, you don't need to run any faster than a conversational pace. And I would go so far as to suggest that a great method to start to rehearse is a walk-run method going into this. And you know, for people that are runners talking about walking feels like a weakness but when you do it properly, implementing a strategic walk run strategy into your training and your participation in the event, will actually provide dividends beyond what you can imagine. Because if you're training your walk, you can actually walk faster than a jog, like over time. And it provides your heart and your lungs the ability to get these mini recoveries within the runs. So I would suggest to you that the overarching kind of philosophy right now should be how do I get my body ready to be in a state of persistent motion when it's very fatigued? So that means that you don't need to go out and do 12 or 15 mile runs. You're better off going out for maybe an eight-mile run where every, every mile or half mile you walk for five minutes. And the idea is getting through all of these workouts feeling fresh and then perhaps having days where you're doing short runs, and I use the term run, you know, very broadly. Like these can be very easy, runs, light jogs but you're doing two or three throughout the day. So you're getting, you're acclimating your body to kind of always being moving. And it has nothing to do with being fast or being winded or anything like that. It's really about can you keep moving forward when you're tired? Which brings up of course- How many days a week should I do, that this weekend, next week- Well I think in a broader context. I would approach this from a perspective of creating a periodized training program where you're building your base, then you're building strength. Then you're, you know, getting a little bit of power, you're having easy weeks and then you're having harder weeks. And then you enter into the phase where you're really getting race specific and you're doing periodic simulation days which I think you can still do and we can talk about which is where you kind of mimic the actual event. Like 42-mile run? So like, yeah, like when I was training for Ultraman, like two months out I picked three days or my coach, Chris and I picked, you know, okay, this week on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, you're gonna do 70% of the Ultraman event. And then we're gonna have kind of a rest week. And then we're gonna build up towards over the next couple of weeks to a second race simulation weekend where we're gonna do 80% of the distance. We're gonna repeat that, have a rest week, and then build up again and then do 90% of it. And that serves many masters. First of all, it's giving your body a sense of what this endeavor is gonna look like and feel like. And also from a mental perspective, once you complete those simulation weekends you're like, oh, I can, now I can wrap my head around this crazy thing that I never thought I could do before. In your case, I would say we're three weeks out. So maybe you can do two or three sim days between now and the event where you do, you know, 60% of the four by four by 48 where you're running like two miles every four hours for, you know, 24 hours or something like that. And you're like, okay, I did that. And then maybe, probably just, you are only three weeks out. So I would suggest maybe two sim days and then a second one where you do three miles but maybe you do it every three hours for 24 hours. Like I don't think there's a lot of benefit beyond the mental component of this to beating yourself up too much between now and then, you've kind of done the work. Like the work that you've done today is pretty much gonna dictate how you, you can't cram for an endurance race, this is the point. So there's only so much you can do now. And the worst thing that you want is to be tired on the day that the event starts, you wanna be as fresh as possible. So making sure that you're, you know, for seven to 10 days before this, you're really keeping it light. I think it's gonna be super important. And I don't know that there's any real benefit to subjecting yourself to a sleep deprivation which you're already experiencing because you have a baby. Yes, I have a baby that now has just popped his second tooth and has learned to screw in his- Yeah, so you are already not sleeping, so- No. But those are the, you know- I think that's gonna help me. When you wake up in the middle of the night and you've got to put the baby back down, you might as well go out the door and run three miles before you go back to bed. Like that would be a cool experience just for mental resiliency to like, be like, oh, it's three in the morning and I went out for a run. Well, let me, like, I actually think Zuma is gonna help me with this because I have been going on on fumes for awhile sleep-wise. And when I was reporting on the K2 thing, I had, two or three days in a row where I was up at four in the morning to like talk to Pakistan. And it was so easy 'cause I've been getting up at that hour, right. That's one of his hours that gets up. And so I've been getting up at that hour and I was able to do it. And so I think, I do think that's gonna help me, some odd way. I think that that's a mental hump in the sense that you go through a training regimen to prepare your body. So your body, you know, is prepared for the physical endeavor that you're doing. But interjecting sleep deprivation into your training program doesn't create the same benefit, at least in my experience. It's not like, like, oh, I did all this sleep deprivation training. So now sleep deprivation is not a problem for me. There's something about sleep deprivation that it's gonna, it's gonna, no matter how much you've experienced that, it's still very hard. And for me, like in my own experience, that's the hardest thing. Like I, you know, when I did the Epic Five, like the sleep deprivation component of it was really the most challenging for me personally. So I don't know how much benefit you get from subjecting yourself to that unnecessarily other than like I said, like the mental strength that you garner from having whether that. So this is gonna be like three weeks is a tricky time because you wanna get some interesting training in that's gonna get your head and your body right but you can't do too much 'cause you don't wanna be tired. And I think that you could wake up tomorrow and do this. Like, I don't know that you need to, 'cause I do think this is, this is mostly a mental thing. You think my base- If somebody put it, you ran 100 miles last month. Yeah. So, you know, you have some fitness with running. Yeah. And I don't think that you need to be that fit to do this 'cause you could literally walk all of these four miles for this whole thing and still get it done. Yeah. It's really a mental thing. And I think it's interesting that the first run starts at like what, like 4:00 PM or something like that? No, 8:00 PM. Oh, 8:00 PM. Okay, so what's cool about that is that you're gonna go through the evening and sleep deprivation aspect of this on the front end of the experience. Like if it, if the first run was at eight o'clock in the morning, then you're dealing with the nighttime and all of that when you're much more fatigued. Yeah. So I think that was smart that he set it up that way. And that caters to, you know, new people who haven't done- Indicators to the nine to fivers mostly. Yeah, exactly, so that they can do it and still, you know, be in their job or whatever. Yeah. So I think that's cool. I think, you know, in a broader sense, talking about endurance, true endurance, you know, everybody knows who's listened to this show that I'm a giant proponent of zone two training. And I think what you get with that, it's really, to really be effective with this zone two philosophy, you have to play the long game. It's not something that you can develop in a short period of time, literally to reach your kind of potential and capacity with that philosophy, it takes a couple of years. Like you can't even do it in a season. I was wondering, 'cause I'm like at 11, 20 a mile now with my zone two and it started at like 1215. And I'm like- This is why people burn out on it. 'Cause they get frustrated- When I'm gonna get fast? They just wanna feel, yeah, they just wanna feel fast so they abandon it, you know, before they get the benefit of it, which is why it's a very particular type of discipline, the kind of discipline that requires you to hold back. So you think like, excuse me, you think like in another year that 1115 could be 1030 or something like that? I can guarantee you that it would be at least that but it requires very strict adherence and it demands consistency. Like you can't train three days a week in zone two and expect to get a great return. It's only when you're doing it day in day out, day in day out 'cause the whole idea is you're not really wearing yourself out so that you can get up and do it again the next day, again the next day, again the next day. So is five days a week okay? Yeah, and what that program would look like wouldn't mean that you're running every single day, but there would be some multi-sport activity that would contribute to you developing that endurance capacity which then in turn creates greater mitochondrial density and your ability for your cells to produce energy at a lower like burn rate and it helps enhance your body's ability to like utilize and metabolize oxygen for fuel and fat for fuel, all of these things that contribute to the true endurance so that, this is something that Chris would always say to me, when you're truly, truly fit in an endurance context, and I look at your Garmin data, and I look at your heart rate graph, it should be flat all the way across. Like if you're doing a 10-mile run, like how straight can you make that heart rate graph line such that it's wavering as little as possible. And he would say to me, I shouldn't be able to tell whether you're running uphill, flat or downhill because that heart rate should always be the same. And when you have that zone two fitness, let's say you're running on a flat and your heart rates 142, you should be able to start climbing that grade maintain that 142 heart rate. You're gonna slow down a little bit but the idea is keeping that heart rate as flat as possible like right on point. For me it would be like 142. For somebody else, that's gonna be somebody else. And to maintain that on a descent as well. And when you have this, then when you get into some speed work and some tempo work, you can dial it up like, okay, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna run 20 minutes, in zone two, and then I'm gonna do around of intervals where I run you know, two minutes at a 160 heart rate and then bring it back down for a minute and then go back up again. When you're really fit in an endurance context, you can ramp up for that tempo effort. And then your heart rate will quickly settle back down into that zone two range. When you don't have that true endurance fitness, it's gonna take a long time for that heart rate to come back down. And that's how I can like internally, just being connected to my body when I know I'm not fit or yeah, I'm in a really good fitness place right now. Interesting. But it is playing the long game, you know, and it does require a certain kind of discipline and an unbelievable amount of consistency to get there and adherence to a well thought out periodized schedule, like ideally when you're gonna tackle a big challenge, something that intimidates you, that scares you, something that is outside of your comfort zone that you've never done before, you do wanna pick a date on the calendar that is, you know, six to eight months out and then you can really create and craft a program that will maximize your physical potential and what you can achieve in that specific period of time. Like a longer swim run or something like that. Yeah, if you were gonna do a full ÖTILLÖ. Right. You know, the 70 kilometer or something like that, like do you have a year to plan? Well, if we have a year, like we can really, you know, get into the details of it. And if you take it seriously and prioritize it, then I think, you know, people are always amazed at what they can accomplish. I think so my strategy, I do have a course, kind of in mind and there's a little gradual. I mean, you would, you would call it flat, but there's a gradual uphill and a gradual downhill just in the streets all around me. So I thought like when I get tired I could walk the uphill and then jog the downhill and walk uphill and jog the downhill as my kind of safe. Yeah, you told me about this the other day and I thought that was, you know, ill-advised. I think that you, you do have access to some pretty flat terrain around your house. We talked about specifically what that course would be but I would just keep it as flat and as simple as possible. Like, there's no need to add a complexifier into this with all kinds of different grades and try to figure that out. I would just, I would keep it on the flats. Well, these are, like I said, you'd call it flat. But like those streets have like a little bit uptick. Like you gain like 50 feet one way and you lose 50 feet the other way. But what is your thinking in terms of why that would be advantageous for you? We're just running them regularly because it's become like the pandemic run because when you couldn't go on on the bike path and everyone was like clogging all these streets, these are very wide streets that you can get away from people. So it became like close by- And would that be the course that you would use for the event itself? Yes, yes. I don't think that's smart because the downhills you think you're resting, but those can be like especially late in the game, those are treacherous. Like it's the downhills that can beat you up just as much as the ascends. Okay. I think you would just be better off keeping it really simple and on the flats and you build in these like walk periods, and you pace yourself out and understand that, you know, whatever four mile leg that you're on, it's not about that four mile leg, it's about the four mile leg that you're gonna be tackling six hours later. Okay. So you're in a state of constant motion but also constant conservation, right. You're always thinking about what's coming several hours later. You're mindful of what you're doing in the moment but it's all about like, how can I, there's an equation that you have to run. Like what is the minimal amount of output in this moment so that I'm not spending too much time on this four mile leg, because the more time it takes you to do that, the less rest you're getting, right? Right. But you don't wanna overextend yourself because you're gonna, you know, meet the reaper six hours later and crash and burn. So constant conservation trying to be as efficient as possible. Yeah. And that's why I think the walk-run method can be super beneficial. So every mile- You can just start building, like I would say like, you know, like it does this, doesn't have to be for all your runs leading up to this. But if you start practicing doing these intervals where yeah, I'm gonna run for a mile and then I'm going to walk for 30 seconds or something like that and then run. And when you're walking, be mindful of how you're walking, like you can train your walks such that the walk can be almost as fast as your jog and you're not using nearly as much energy and your lungs and your heart get a chance to rest. But it's something that you train like anything else. So I think paying attention to that will be huge for you getting into this. I've doing those, like I said, these intervals where it's 30, 60, 90 seconds, two minutes up to five minutes at a tempo. And then either back to zone two or a walk and this is stuff that Nicola has sent me. And I do like those, and there's always a 15 to 20 minutes zone to warm up in a 10 minute zone to cool down on the end. Right. Do you think that that is helpful with the zone to development? I think it's fine in the broader context of developing you as an athlete and as a runner but with respect to this event, I don't know that doing tempo runs at this point 3 weeks out is gonna benefit you in any meaningful way. Okay. And in fact, it could just wear you out and make you tired. And I don't want you tired going into this. Yeah. So there's that aspect to it. Let's spend a few minutes talking about food and feeling strategies. I think David's advice is solid and very good in that before you run you wanna be intaking calories that are easily metabolized and are not gonna cause stomach upset or require all your blood to go in your gut when you have to go out and run, that would be bad. You get that food coma and you get lethargic and it's very difficult to move. So smoothies in the period leading up to run and then getting, you know, more bulk calories, you know, maybe 30 minutes after you finish your run, I think is a good strategy. And I also like what he said and I believe this whole heartedly that when you're fueling you're not fueling for that next four miles, you're fueling for the four mile interval that's coming six hours later. You're always thinking about getting ahead on your nutrition. When you're gonna be, you're looking at 48 miles of running. So chances are you're gonna be running at caloric deficit no matter what, no matter how many calories you put in, you're probably gonna end up burning more than you eat. Maybe not, depending upon the athlete, but given that you wanna be ahead on your calories. So it's not about that form mile, like I just said, I'm repeating myself, but this is the point that I wanna make. The instinct will occur like, I'm not hungry, I feel good. Like, I feel light, I don't wanna feel heavy when I go on and do this four-mile run. So I'll just eat later or I'll just I'll bag that smoothie or that like rice bowl or whatever it is. And I'll just do it, you know, after the next one. That happens to me 'cause I don't like to feel weighed down. The problem is then, you know, for two more intervals down the line, you're gonna you're going to bonk out because you didn't fuel properly all along. So you wanna test this in your training and figure out, everybody's different. Like how, you know, what is the right caloric intake for me that won't upset my stomach, that will fuel me and allow me to feel good and won't weigh me down that I can metabolize. 'Cause everybody's a little bit different with this. And then also paying attention to your electrolyte balance. Like what products are you gonna be using, are you gonna be using like a, like a performance calorie drink? Like UCAN, something that's like a carbohydrate-based. Drink that you can take calories in while you're running. Are you gonna be taking in electrolytes, what does that look like? Is there a product in mind that you have for that? Like all of these things you should test because some people they drink Gatorade and they're throwing up- Coconut water? Or other people have no problem with that. I think coconut water is good. Like I like coconut water. I've started using this product element. They've sponsored the podcast. So they sent me a bunch of this stuff and that seems to work really well as an electrolyte. Just a powder that you put in your, in your water. It doesn't, it's a lot of those electrolyte products are super sweet. There's too much sugar in them, they causes stomach upset. This doesn't have that, it works really well for me. I can give you some of those samples, but you might wanna check that out. Okay. And I just know for myself, you know, when you're cycling, like doing ultra training and you're, or racing, you can, it's easier to, it's easier to taking calories. You're sitting down, it's a different posture, running very hard, right. But there are products that are very calorically dense in liquid form that you could start to experiment with. Like I mentioned, UCAN is one, Carbo-Pro, like these products are pretty good for that. It's a maltodextrin product. Sorry, when I was doing the 10 or 11-mile runs more regularly, like in the hills I would bring like a lemon water, maple syrup-based kind of thing that I'd make myself. (Adam laughs) Yeah, I think this is good. So I'm not gonna do that, I guess, you're saying, don't you? No, I would start, I would get a couple of different products and try them out and see what suits you. Element. And I can help you with that. Yeah, but Element and UCAN would be two that I would suggest for that. Okay, what about smoothies, like before, or- I think that's good. You know, I think you should, you know, if you had, and again, it goes back to what's gonna upset your stomach. Like if you have a green smoothie, that's too green, your body might revolt, you know, chances are you're going to get some diarrhea, that just kind of happens with this sort of thing. Right. But you've got to figure out what works for you. But I would, you know, I would suggest foods that are nourishing and easy on the stomach and calorically dense. Like I would have baked sweet potatoes, which are kind of like nature's gels. Like you can chew on them, they go down really easy. Bananas are great. I mean, just your average, you know, Yukon potatoes, pretty good as well. Cooking some of those things. Almond butter, you know, almond butter- I love almond butter. You know, stuff like that. Avocados work well too. These are my favorite foods. You asked me the question when I'm looking to learn about myself. Like, why are you doing this? I feel like a couple of things come to mind. One is my feet are not great. Like I have orthotics. I still have a mild plantar fasciitis in my left foot. I had an ankle sprain at high ankle sprain. I took a week off and then got back to running. I've taken this year, and especially since Zoom was born and looking at how injuries affect me in a very different way than I had for a long time. When I first had a foot, like I hadn't run I had played a bad case of plantar fasciitis in 2012, yeah, 2012 and I could barely walk. Like I was walking like an 80 year old man after a six-mile hike, you know, it was like it was really, kind of scared me. I'm like, how bad is this? And gradually, so I stopped running completely. And then I found, you know, my swimming became my main thing but it never really had the, it was zone zero, like you said, the way I was doing it. So I got back into running, actually my wife when we first started hanging out, she got me back into running and I was surprised I was able to do it because I was worried about my feet. And then I ended up having a tendonitis and broke a bone in my left foot after a run and didn't realize it and walked on it and like had to go to Argentina for work and was walking on it for like a month. And by the time I got back it was so bad that like it quiet required PT and it required these orthotics. and, but gradually from a treadmill, from a treadmill to a trail, I was able to start running again. And it was ÖTILLÖ that got me running on the street again, off a treadmill. And so that's kind of recent history, had me always really worried about my foot. If it hurt at all, I take two days off, you know, like I was very much babying it. And then just like, not knowing what David goes through with his body and it doesn't stop him talking to you, you know, you don't, you don't get stopped by much. So I just have taken a different view on it. And so, yeah, when I sprained my ankle was a bad sprain. Like I knew it right when it happened it was a terrible sprain. I've had a million times 'cause I played basketball my whole life. And I was like, fuck, you know, right. When I'm getting back in shape after the baby came, like no way, no way am I gonna stop running 'cause of this ankle. And I gave myself, like, I didn't even take a day off. I was in the water swimming the next day and I took a week off a running and I went back to it taped it up, just started doing it. And so I'm kind of, I'm kind of interested to see if I can pull this off with two wheels that aren't tiptop, you know, at my age. And so I'm interested. So here's what's interesting about what you just said. Yeah. I asked you, what is it, why are you doing this and what is it that you wanna learn? And then you just recounted your history of injuries and your tenuous relationship with endurance sports. But what you didn't do is tell me what it is that you're seeking to learn about yourself. Like you, you made a general statement, like I wanna see if I can do it? Of course, but that's on the surface level. What I'm saying is you have an opportunity here. You're gonna go deep into the hole at some point, you're gonna have moments where you're gonna wanna quit, it's gonna be dark, you're gonna be tired. So what is it about this that you're drawn to and how can you look at this as a lever for growth in some area of your life? Because I want you going into this challenge thinking about some blind spot in your life, or some aspect of how you're living, that perhaps isn't working in the way that you would like it to because you can problem solve here. You're gonna go through something very difficult. You're gonna come out the other side of it. I have full confidence that you're gonna be able to do it but what's most critical is how you evolve and grow as a result of this. And what is it that you can learn about yourself. And I'm not saying that you should have an answer to that, but I think that you should be asking yourself those questions because this is the gift that keeps giving with endurance challenges. They are this lever for personal growth. And I think to just do it and say, well that was fun and cool. That's fine, but you're missing the broader opportunity to do a little bit of personal inventory here and all of that solitary time in the training and in the participation of the event itself gives you that space that you just don't get as a young dad with a baby when life is kind of coming at you really quickly. So understand that alone is a gift, and then what you make of that experience, how it sets in motion, some level of momentum or create some type of foundation upon which you can build, I think is really, you know, the blessing of these types of adventures. Interesting. Yeah, I guess I don't have a deeper meaning answer just yet, you know, I just, I don't. I mean I was looking at it as just, you know, I'd like to do it. I'd like to, I feel like I get some power out of accomplishing something like this, you know, a 50-mile run, basically. I was thinking of actually adding 0.18 or whatever, to every run to make it even 50. Let's just do this and get through it. Like you're gonna make it more difficult early on and then you jeopardize like capsizing the whole ship. It is do for it. Just do it. Yeah, and if at the end of 48 miles, you're still like, I feel awesome. Then go do another four miles but don't make it unnecessarily difficult early on. Okay, I'll stick with this. Look, I feel pretty good. Like, I keep things pretty simple in my life from an emotional standpoint. Like I don't try to overanalyze my life, I really don't. I don't try to be optimal in any way. Like, I'm not trying to optimize things. Like, that's not how I live, so- I get that, I'm not encouraging you to do that. No, no, no. But I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't really because of that, maybe I'm not as introspective in some areas where maybe other people might be more introspective because I just don't feel like it helps me in my life. Like I like keeping it pretty simple like kind of in a Daoist way, like keeping it balanced, keeping it simple, trying to enjoy the beauty of the world and take one step at a time. And that's how I approach basically everything I tried to do. And, but that does come as a cost of introspection. Like when you're taking it from a Daoist perspective of like, you know, Chop Wood Carry Water, there's not like Chop Wood Carry Water and then tell us what you think about that. (Adam laughs) Right, and, and from that perspective, that is the more enlightened path, right. Like I'm doing it for the sake of doing it and I'm so immersed and present in the doing of it that it doesn't have to mean anything more than that. I'm only, and I get that, and I think there's tremendous beauty in that. I'm merely suggesting that that accomplishing these sorts of things will undoubtedly leave you with an elevated sense of self-efficacy and a sense of personal possibility in your life. And then the question becomes, well, how do you channel that newly energized Adam Skolnick? Like in what direction should you, should you aim this like newfound sense of what you're personally capable of. Yeah, that's a good question. My wife's answer will be, he'll buy us a house. He won't be afraid to buy the house (laughs) You won't be afraid. You don't be afraid to pull the trigger on- Well, we could unpack that a little bit. I mean, so basically she's saying you could buy a house but you're afraid. Well there's a couple of- What does that fear about? There were a couple opportunities. I guess, I mean, I've been slugging away at this job for a long time as a reporter, a freelance journalist and a writer. And more recently because of "Can't Hurt Me," did did better than I ever thought I would financially. And I mean, at 40, I was wondering what was like, like this whole career, like it could evaporate in 10 years or less, and I could end up being really wondering what I'm gonna do. Obviously I got through that before "Can't Hurt Me," but then, you know, this has come with a windfall and with that came you know, some tax bills and all that. And so you ended up looking at this account and you have already put out all this money that you didn't get anything for, 'cause it's taxes, 'cause that's the way it goes. And then also put out a down payment, it just like was a lot to go out the door. And so I was like, can I just enjoy like a year where I'm not, I never have to think about anything I buy. And I think it's like a little bit of just having lived through hand to mouth for, you know, doing this job for 20 years. So there's a little bit of trauma. There's a little bit- Yeah, yeah. There's a little bit of trauma because of your history. Yah. And perhaps it might be worth examining whether or not you have some fear of large house, like a discomfort with- Well, here's no question about that. No question about that. You know, it's like, oh, this windfall, it was a one-time thing, it's never gonna happen again. So I better hold onto this very tightly and not let it go because I'm not deserving of it happening again or this isn't, you know what I mean? Yeah, I was more like- This is great because I think these are the questions that you should be ruminating on when you know, it's three in the morning and you're you know, out in the dark. Well, I wasn't even thinking about like, do I feel like I'm worthy? It's more like, although that's the deeper underlying meaning when you're afraid, like knowing I could come up with all the logical reasons like, you know, Mark Twain had just declared bankruptcy when he was basically after he wrote these great books. I mean, you know, like I could, Herman Melville ended up working at the customs office after he wrote "Moby-Dick." You know, like I can come up, I could give you 100 reasons why it's a bad career decision (laughs) long-term. And a lot of them are financial. I wasn't thinking of it as am I worthy, although that's probably the underlying thing. But what I was thinking about is, I've never been comfortable. Like I've never, I've never thought like living in the best house on the block was cool. Like I've never thought, like I've never wanted to live in the best building. Like for some reason I've just never wanted that for myself. And I think it's because there is something there about wealth and the way I see myself and I think there's definitely some cobwebs there. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's not about like having the best thing, and I know you well enough to know that, you know, your perspective on the material world is rooted in you know, a very heartfelt desire to see everybody flourish. Like you have a sensitivity to the underprivileged that I think is, is a beautiful thing. And that's where your your kind of focus lies. But it's also okay to, you know, live your life and enjoy it, right? Yeah. And to the extent that you're like, you don't want, I'm not saying you're martyring yourself or anything like that, but is there some guilt attached to the fact that suddenly you had some success that you didn't expect and does that create some weird new emotions for you? I mean, clearly, you know, if April's like, you know, like she, she might be seeing a version of you that you can't see, right. Yeah. And so I, you know, I don't have the answers to any of that, but I just think those are interesting questions to ask yourself and think about. I like that. Yeah. This is great. So I'm excited for you. You'll report back- Yes. And we'll see how this goes. Well I'll report on my, on some of my next time, it'll be a sim before we even do the event. Right, right and we'll sort that out. Yeah. Cool. Sort of the sim. All right, well, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with lots of cool stuff to talk about, including listener questions and more. (whooshing sound) Right, and we're back. Before we get into a new segment, we're calling the buzz. Is that what we're calling it, the buzz. Like what is the big story? Well, the big story we didn't, we're not doing a big story this week. We're doing a shorter we'll call the buzz. Right, I like that. Yeah. I'm tired of the big story. The big story is draining. It really is. As you, as you might've imagined we've pivoted away from politics today. There's a good reason for that. I think we're all fatigued of that. And we wanna get back into the heart of, the kind of stuff that I love to talk about. So this is fun. Before we get into the buzz, though, I do wanna mention for people that are watching on YouTube, they can see this. I'm wearing my Legion, Legion of Los Angeles T-shirt today. Yeah, yeah. That's Justin Williams, Justin Williams is a cycling team. He was a great guest on the podcast. And I ran into him yesterday. I was, I was headed over to the studio here, Sunday late afternoon to put a couple of final touches on the Adam Grant podcast, which is up now. And I spotted him riding in his red, white and blue Legion kit pulled over, chatted with him. He was all fired up. He's got all kinds of good things going on with the team. He's very grateful for the podcast and all the people that reached out to him as a result of his appearance here. And it was a reminder that I got in this t-shirt and I wanted to rock it. Is a great t-shirt. I think what he's doing is really cool. So if you go to his Instagram, if you dig the t-shirt and you wanna support his team and what he's doing in the community of cycling, probably the best place is to go his Instagram. And you can buy, you can contribute- He's got some schwag and gear and stuff like that. I got to buy one of those t-shirts, I love it. That was kind of show and tell, we have more show and tell to do. We do. Anyway, get into it, the buzz. The buzz. What are we buzzing buzzing about? We are buzzing about Clubhouse, the future of audio. This is a- Is it though? Well, that's what we're wondering about. Right. The pros and cons of using it. So Clubhouse is this new social media platform. It was, it's kind of like this thing where you go into different, you know, you become a member, you get an invitation, you enter this house and the all in this house are an infinite number of rooms. And each room has its own kind of topic or moderator going on, and you can wander into the rooms and hear these interesting discussions. It is, to me, it's kind of part user-generated talk show platform, part like salons of the digital age, you know, those salons from like Gertrude Stein's Paris Salon is probably the best known version of it, with Hemingway and Fitzgerald and all those great writers. This is for everyone to have a salon. So the, it was a tiny San Francisco startup, with about a dozen employees founded by two entrepreneurs, Paul Davidson, and Roohan Seth. And basically, I think one of them is I think, what is it? They both went to Stanford Davidson and created some social networking apps, including Highlight which allowed users to see and message people nearby. Seth was a Google engineer and co-founded a company called Memory Labs which built apps. So they had this experience in the app space and they were kind of pinballing around trying to find something and this is the one that has taken off and they've raised a hundred million dollars in the last month. And then it's now- I believe Andreessen Horowitz led that funding round. I know they're, they're pretty heavily invested in this platform. Is that right? And it's now valued at a billion dollars. And this thing just came out of nowhere. Like I heard about it for the first time a couple of months ago. When did you, you were on the first- I was very early in. Yeah. Yeah, I got invited into Clubhouse at the very, maybe not at the very inception, but very early on. I think there were only like 100 people on the platform at the time that I got invited on. When was that? It was, it was a while ago. Like I don't, I can't remember. Year ago? No, maybe not that long ago. I can't, maybe a year ago. I'm not quite sure. Maybe nine, 10 months ago, I'm not sure. So 10 moths, a year ago there were a thousand on it and now it's- There was barely anybody on it. That' crazy. And I've dropped in and listened to conversations from time to time. I can't say I'm like a power user. It's interesting like now everybody's talking about Clubhouse. I think a big part of that is because Elon Musk was in a room the other day with the CEO of Robin Hood. and that was a big kind of like pivotal moment in the evolution of this platform that introduced it to a lot of people. Because that was around the whole- It's interesting, like I've never, but I've never done a conversation there. I've got like a bunch of followers there, but I've not, I've never used it really, but I kind of check in on it from time to time. And I I've been thinking about what this platform means and what it presents. And I do think there's something interesting about that salon aspect. Yes. And having conversations that aren't just two people but there's a variety of people that can chime in. 'Cause you can quietly sit in the back and listen, or you can participate. And sometimes there's like 12 or 15 people that are all kind of like jockeying to have their point heard in these, in these rooms, in these specific rooms, it's sort of like eavesdropping on a party line or something like that- Right. 'Cause it's happening in real time, these conversations are not recorded. They're not recorded unless somebody is, you know, recording them using something else but they're not intended to be recorded. So it's an ephemeral kind of thing. And I think- Right, like an event, like a festival. Yeah, so that spontaneity, I think, you know, contributes to a different kind of conversation than maybe you would have on a podcast where there's cameras and lights and a little bit of fanfare around it. Historically, my sense of Clubhouse is that there's been two camps that have grown there. One is very much a Silicon Valley, perhaps, you know, Bro/philosopher kind of ecosystem where there's a lot of conversations about the future of tech and it perhaps has a little bit of a libertarian bent to it. And there's some controversy surrounding particular aspects of those conversations. And at the same time, there's also a very robust community comprised of people of color having interesting conversations about diversity and the future of the workplace. And now I think it's mainstreaming a little bit as more and more people are finding out about it and more and more people are onboarding onto it. And I've thought a lot about like my own personal relationship to this platform and whether or not I wanna make use of it. And I think there's something interesting to be explored there. Like I'm not averse to having a conversation with an interesting person on Clubhouse or participating in one of these broader talks. And I think it could be an opportunity to expose this podcast to an audience of people who perhaps are not familiar with it. So there's a growth potential there, I think. But at the same time, you know, I already do that here. You know, this is where I want the focus of my, you know, my audio content to live. And I think to jump onto Clubhouse and participate in conversations there is really contributing to the growth of that platform. And I'm more interested in growing my own audience and perhaps even, not perhaps but definitely my own platform outside of the social media apps we're gonna be launching, and I've mentioned this in the past, a portal, a membership portal for people that are like super fans where we're gonna have exclusive content and a lot more connectivity and interaction with myself and other people. And we're working on that. We're gonna be launching a pilot, sort of beta version of that pretty soon. And I've got a lot more to share about that on future episodes. So I guess, I think it's super interesting and it will be fascinating to see how this develops and grows over time. Well, especially since like Facebook's already got a room thing, on Instagram and they're building- Yeah, it's like they can easily copy this thing and launch their own version. You're gonna see that pretty soon and I think that's inevitable. Yeah. You're seeing on Clubhouse people who are doing these daily talk shows or weekly shows, I think that's cool, that is a version of podcasting that's unique and its own thing. But I think like podcasting people are gonna find out that it's gonna be a grind, right? So who's gonna really develop an audience and stick to it and be willing to do the kind of heavy lifting that's required to build an audience and remain consistent because the Elan's are going to pop in from time to time but they're not gonna be coming in weekly on Clubhouse. So what is it that people are going to be tuning in for? And I've just noticed when I open it up, I'll see a couple of conversations going on or a schedule of conversations that are gonna be going on later in the day, and I kinda go, that could be interesting but like I'd rather listen to this podcast where I kind of already know what's going to happen there and there'll be some, a forethought that goes into how that conversation is gonna play out. So I've listened in the background on some of these conversations and some of them have been cool, but I don't know. I don't think I'm gonna be a power user on Clubhouse. No, and then there's also the aspect of, at some point this kind of haze, COVID haze will all be lifted and we'll get back to normal life and everyone's gonna wanna go to a real salon, you know? Yeah, that's true. We're gonna be hungry for that. But the opportunity to kind of eavesdrop on, like, well what is Elon Musk gonna ask the CEO of Robin Hood? Is a pretty cool thing, right? It is cool. And I think we're also gonna see this platform pivot to a subscription-based model or a premium event platform where it's like, oh, you know, so-and-so is going to talk to so-and-so so reserve your spot for seven bucks or whatever it is. I think, I think that should be the case. Like if somebody's gonna have like a really cool thing happening there, the creators of that or the participants in that should be remunerated. Yeah, well that, I mean, you're pointing to the thing that we talked about when we were talking about the social dilemma. Right. In that what's the purpose of this platform? The purpose of the platform is not to get you into the room with- The purpose of a platform is to create - Is to make a lot of money. And have a billion dollar valuation. And so everyone is going there. They might think they're getting an experience but really they're giving power to this company. They're the product of course. Yeah, they're the product. And that doesn't I mean that there isn't value in what's going on. It doesn't, it doesn't, and I'm not, and I don't even, you know, that's entrepreneurship, it's fine. But I do think like that has colored the way I look at all these platforms and how do you wanna make your, how do you wanna spend your time? And I feel like I spend enough time on my phone, probably more than enough. So personally I am, I was invited. I am, I have it on my phone. I opened it once, like at eight in the morning just to browse like, well, like while I was lying on the couch, maybe even in bed or something like that. And two people wanted to talk to me, I'm like, wait a second (laughs) I got out of there quick, man. That happened to me too. I open it up and there was some conversation going on around plant-based nutrition. So I thought, oh, this will be cool. But it was immediately noticed that I had, like that I was in the background or whatever and I got a ping like, oh, join the conversation. And it was the same thing. I was like, I could have been in the bathroom. Like, I don't know what I was doing but I was certainly not prepared to like join in. Hey, Rich, wait, wait what? So I had like a little panic moment and I like logged out, right. I was like am live on this thing? I don't even know what's going on. Yes, yes, yes. So be aware when you first try to enter what might happen, so- At the same time another reason why Clubhouse is very much in the news and on the, on everybody's tongues and lips at the moment is because they're trying to figure out what content moderation looks like, in this broader conversation around content moderation on Twitter and Facebook, et cetera, there doesn't seem to be any effort or infrastructure around that with respect to Clubhouse at the time. I think this is really interesting. Like, like how does that work? Like, what is the, you know, what is the value proper proposition around content moderation on a platform where conversations are happening live and in real time and are not being archived or recorded? Like, are you, you know, certainly if we've learned anything over the past year that, you know, we do need to be thinking about problem but I just don't know how you implement any kind of solution on a platform like Clubhouse. Not to say that you can't. And I think even more broadly there's conversations happening right now about content moderation in the podcast ecosystem as well, which, you know, I just, I can't imagine how you even approach that issue. Why? 'Cause I don't think people really get, like if I look at my Apple podcasts feed and I see the way people frame their shows and not everyone frames them, we've talked about this before, not everyone comes correct with how, what their show really is. Why is it hard for these big platforms like Apple and Spotify and others to moderate? Well, first of all, there's 2 million podcasts. There's, let say something like 17,000 new podcasts that are being created every week, I think. And the number of hours that's getting onboarded every minute is insane. And in order to do any kind of content moderation you can't just look at a Facebook post, you have to actually listen to what people are saying and then you have to place, you can't even just transcribe it and really fully understand because it all has to be placed in the greater context of whatever conversation is happening. Yeah. There's gonna be, you know, margin cases on the outskirts where maybe that's easy. Like if somebody's basically saying we, you know, like fomenting insurrection and saying we have to kill, you know, these people or something like that, where you could, you know, immediately identify that there's a problem here. But other than that, like podcasting is all about like a nuanced conversation. And it's often about controversial or difficult topics. And I'm a believer in exploring difficult ideas in long form as a way of stress testing my own views on things but also as a service to humanity, to get them to think about how strongly they hold their own beliefs. And so I think you need some flexibility or kind of a broadness in that regard. So there's the logistical technical aspect of how you would, you know, police, for lack of a better term, content, moderate so much content. I don't know that AI is capable of that. Right. They'd have to build software- You can't, you'd have to have millions of human beings. And also some things live like how long is it gonna take you to, I just don't, I don't see how it's possible. Well, you couldn't do it within a show but could you do it within like what the show is about? Like kind of the, like the- Also, is this something we should be doing at all. I think that's a question we need to ask, you know. Should we err on the side, like free speech or not. It's like listen, and on the logistical aspect of it as well, it's not like Facebook or Twitter where there's one platform, there's a whole stack of providers in the way that, you know, their AWS is the cloud support to these social media platforms with podcasting. It's not just Apple and Spotify, it's, it's all the hosting platforms. Like we host on Acast, there's Libsyn, there's Podbean, there's Blubrry, there's a million of these little companies, so- Which are like- Where are we doing the content moderation? Are we, are we doing it at the level of Apple and Spotify or are we doing it at the level of these hosting companies? Right. And what incentive do they have? Like a lot of them are small companies. They have teams of 10 or 20 people or something like that. Like these hosting companies you're talking- Set up to be able to do this. They're like the version of web hosting for podcasts. Essentially, yeah. Like that's where the actual like audio file rest. And then you have this thing called an RSS feed which is basically a way of syndicating your content across the internet. So by definition, it's an open structure which makes it different and infinitely more complicated than the social media sites. You know what's funny is that when the internet was born it's openness, the idea of open source and open everything, and you can, you know, it's a free for all was kind of seen as it will end up being, it's like evolution. It will be a good. The end product will just automatically be good. And now we have we're in this kind of dark middle phase where it's clear turning out,- We're in our early adolescents, we were- Right, we're not sure that that will turn out that way. We're stumbling around in the dark trying to solve problems that humanity has never had to face before, which makes it really difficult. But moderation and and censorship it's like, there, it's it's kind of a, a fine line, right? Between the two things like, and then you can't, like, we didn't talk about this before, but this is a good time to talk about it. Like everyone is so prone to outrage right now, that like anything said now might be construed in a way that five years from now we look back and laugh at or five years ago, we would think what? Like why are people outraged about that? You posted you and you went on a hike with Alexi Pappas and you posted yourself at the top having fun with masks on, and what happened. Yeah, so that was interesting. Alexi Pappas and I hooked up for a hike the other day. We had a great time, super fun. And we're like, oh, let's take a picture. You know, when we're at the top of this little climb and we had masks, so we took the picture posted it and a lot of, look, to be fair, a lot of people were like, oh, that's so cool. You guys talked about like, you know, getting out for a run together and you actually did it. But there were a lot of people who were very angry that we were wearing masks in the great outdoors and people, you know, hurling epithets at me and saying that, I thought you were about wellness and you should be, you know, drinking in the biosphere and you don't need to be wearing masks outside. And you've bought into the great hype and- Yeah, you were in a face diaper. But it was less like, all right, fine. There's anti-mask people and there's people that have strongly held beliefs about the efficacy of wearing masks. But it was more the tone, like the vitriol of the whole thing that really bummed me out. It was, it was disappointing that so many people felt so strongly about that when I was like, just trying to share a fun picture of Alexi and I on a hike. And I guarantee you that had we taken the photo with masks off, it would have been the same thing, just a mirror image of that, you know. Yes. And I think it speaks to that level of, you know, outrage that we're seeing in general at moments. And where people are more focused on stuff outside themselves, on this little screen than what's, than their own self, and even better, like now it's more important to, it's more important what you say or how you set it, than what you do and how you live your life in a way. It's like the perception has shifted, you know, like, you can be misconstrued so easily. And then there's also, the thing is a lot of those people who are making comments on what to do with a mask or not, they're not necessarily qualified to make those comments. No, and it's like, listen, you know, I'm not virtue signaling because I'm afraid of losing followers or anything like that. But I didn't think like it's better to like put a picture up where we're being safe than on the other side of it. But that's really all the thought that went into it, you know. Well I agree with you, it's okay to be safe. You know, and then at the same time people, I was wearing my Ons, my On running shoes. So then there were people who were like, well, I guess, you know, Tony riddle in the minimalist thing, didn't stick with you, you abandon it already. Like the Vivo barefoot. I was like, I wear Vivos, I wear Ons, I wear all different kinds of stuff. Like I'm trying different things all the time. On this day, I happened to be wearing my On running shoes. Like, it's really nothing more than that. You can't do, well, listen, you can't- And it just makes me think why am I even posting on these social sites? It's like, I don't, it makes me really disinterested in engaging on those platforms at all. Is that right? And it's more reason to create my own platform where the people who are interested in what I'm doing wanna participate and, you know, be connected to the work that I'm doing. Interesting. Like what, you know, what's the benefit? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, there is a benefit for you to build the podcast through that platform since you've put so much effort into building your you're kind of fun. Yeah, I mean, they, they have a utility in that regard, but at some point it's like, if I can't post a picture of me and a friend out on a hike without it being controversial, then you can say- It's weird time we're in dude. People are so like, it's very, like, they're like hair triggered to fucking launch because we are just in some weird time. And listen, you know, to take a cue from Adam Grant and all of the amazing work that he's doing and how he speaks- That podcast is killing it by the way. Oh, it's unbelievable. How he thinks about, you know, engaging with people. It's like people, you know, how can I, how can I look at that particular instance from a perspective of curiosity and empathy, and like people are having a hard time, we're all stuck at home. Maybe, you know, there's snow storms everywhere at the moment and it looks like a nice day in Los Angeles and I'm out with a friend and that made somebody angry and they lash out because they're having a hard time or they got laid off or has nothing to do with me. No. So the more that I can inhabit that space, it doesn't bother me. I think I just wanna see your pretty face Rich. And they were really pissed off they had to look on- I don't know what it was. Someone called it a face diaper on your pic, face diaper. I haven't heard that one. Anyway, moving on. moving on, show and tell. Let's do it. All right, I forgot something, I'll be right back. Are you gonna go get something? While you do that, I'll share one thing that I have right now which is this mug. If you're watching on YouTube, you can, you've probably been looking at this red mug thinking like, that's cool, what is that? So I had the wonderful Steven Pressfield on the podcast the other day. People will know him as the author of the "War of Art" and "Turning Pro." He's had a huge influence on me as a creative person, perhaps the most influence of anybody that I had never previously met. And it was a super honor to have him on that show. We had a great conversation, I'll be sharing that soon, but he came bearing gifts and he brought me this mug, which was made by this artisan potter called, called Joel Cherrico. And essentially what it is, it's called cothon and it's inspired by the ancient Spartan warriors who fought in the battle of Thermopylae like 2,500 years ago which is a subject matter that Steven writes about in some of his military novels, and he kind of discharged this potter to craft this cothon, this drinking cup, which was valued for its use on military campaigns with the Spartans. Nobody knows exactly what they look like specifically but Stephen challenged his potter to come up with the design based upon historical records. And this is what he came up with. And I absolutely love it. So you're drinking your coffee out of a Spartan chalice right now? I am, yes, apparently- Well it's long as what the 100, like that great movie "100," right. Well, the battle of Thermopylae was 300, right? 300, great movie. It's basically the same thing. Yeah. And this cup was, so the way it goes, the way it's written here, visibly off putting elements in stream or river water, which had to be drunk were concealed by its color while the dirt in the liquid was trapped in the lip so that it reached the mouth, so whatever reached the mouth was was cleaner. I guess that's the design aesthetic to the thing whole thing. Yeah, essentially 2,500 years ago. And it has this cool seal on it, which is like the Spartan seal. It's cool, I was wondering about that. Anyway, I just thought it was great. They're beautifully rendered. And I wanted to shout out Joel Cherrico for his work. So if you guys wanna learn more about his pottery, go to Cherokeepottery, it's C-H-E-R-R-I-C-O pottery.com and get your own mug, I suppose. So thank you, Stephen and thank you, Joel for the gift. And you have some shoes on as well. Oh yeah, I do. So back to Alexi. So when Alexi came on the podcast, she was wearing these shoes called Atreyu that I didn't know about. She's now sponsored by this running company. And I thought those are really cool, they're unique. I hadn't ever seen shoes like that before. So I looked them up on the internet and I bought a pair to check them out. And what I learned was pretty cool. So I'm wearing them right now. They're kind of dope looking, right? They are. They're pretty minimal. They have this, like on the inside, it says fear, "Fear Only Regret," each one of their models has like a different little saying on the inside of 'em. That's cool, I like that. But what's unique about this particular brand is this subscription model that they have, and the shoes are incredibly affordable. Like you can buy a one-off shoe for 75 bucks, but if you go on a subscription, there are $55 and they come to you, you can set how often they send you new pairs, like two months. I think it's the suggested interval because these are very kind of like lightweight. If you're running a lot, they're gonna wear out more quickly. At 75 bucks a year, you're saying? 75 bucks for one pair if you buy a single pair and a typical pair running shoes is like 95 to $110. Something like that. $55 for a shoe, like that's super affordable and they come with a return shipping label. So when you get your new pair, you send the old one back and they upcycle them and donate them to people who need shoes, which I think is really cool. On top of the fact that the company was founded by this guy, Michael Krajcek who's a sober dude who has his roots in the music and restaurant industry, and they're in, I think they're in Austin, yeah, he's an Austin. Anyway, I thought it was cool. They're not, they don't sponsor the podcast or anything like that, but I saw it was a cool brand and I wouldn't have found out about it except for Alexi, 'cause she was wearing them. She's rocking them now. So anyway, that's what I'm wearing today. That's my big show and tell. I like Alexi's good pain analogy. She's full of little nuggets of wisdom, isn't she? Yeah. So I shared the clip of her talking about the rule of thirds. People just love that. It's amazing. Yeah. I just downloaded her book. So yeah, we haven't commented on the fact that you're wearing a moon suit right now. Oh, sorry. You disappeared when I was talking about, I was so into the mug and then the shoe, and then you returned and you're wearing like a parka. Let's get yours on. So all right, talk and I'll go get it. Alright. So we are wearing Shackleton expedition-grade parkas, I guess. So Shackleton is this expedition grade gear company but they also have like, I guess, performance attire that also looks good and it's super high end. I think it's Italian made. This one is a performance jacket that is- I'm already hot. Is graded to minus 25 degrees Celsius. It's basically Antarctic grade, like summer in Antarctica we could wear this and, you know, Legion t-shirt and those shoes and be just fine. And it was made out of plastic recycled, plastic bottle. So they developed it in partnership with an organization called the Blue Marine Foundation. And, you know, Shackleton made his name on an expedition to Antarctica. That kinda was a failed fraud expedition but his leadership basically saved everyone's life in this crazy period of time. They live for like almost a year on ice, you know, in sheet ice in the middle of the ocean. And it kept everyone's, you know, sane and alive. Anyway, so this has been, let's see, it's made from recycled, 100% recycled fabrics and post-consumer plastic bottles have been recycled repurposed to create this waterproof shell. So all the fabrics are recycled and the shell is made out of the bottles and then it's filled with goose down. So, you know, sorry, so, that'd be- That's not so good. No. But they are not a sponsor. I appreciate, they are not a sponsor. And this is a gift, I appreciate that. Yeah, it would be cool if there was no down in it. Yeah. But I appreciate the recycled plastic aspect of this. It is, is good. So it is a beautiful jacket. If you're, if you're going to Yellowstone in the middle of winter, this will help. I was in Yellowstone, it was like minus 20. And I had like a Patagonia jacket that was graded to like 30 degrees. So essentially there's nowhere on planet earth that you can go in this coat and be cold. No, I mean, except- Maybe at the bottom of the ocean. Or the top of K2. Yeah, right, okay, cool. Well, thank you for the gift, I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. So that's cool. Talk, talk to me about this on the subject of the bottom of the ocean. Yes. This WSL, We Are One ocean campaign that we want to talk about. The teachable moment today is WSL and WSL PURE which is the nonprofit arm of the World Surf League have launched a campaign to get Groundswell support to encourage the UN to help declare 30% of the ocean off limits to development, oil exploration, gas development, fishing, commercial fishing, not all fishing, commercial fishing by 2030. And the reason being is, well, there's a few reasons for it but we are in the middle of a, you know, possible mass extinction event where species are going extinct to the high level. This is ocean is being acidified, the highest, the highest acidification of the ocean in terms of rate, there's ever been. Why's that matters because our every second breath comes from the ocean. 90% of the carbon dioxide that we've ever admitted winds up in the ocean, and that's the reason for the acidification. We have coral reefs that are dying. We have, you know, kelp forests that are going away. The water temperature is higher than it's ever been. So because of all of this, we are now worried about species collapse and total systems collapse which matters to us, you know, from an oxygen standpoint, from a life standpoint, from food standpoint. And so one solution to our problems that the scientists have decided is that if you can declare 30% of the ocean off limits to development in any way, protect it, that has proven to be a driver for climate resiliency, increased biodiversity, it protects coastal areas from erosion and it just is protecting, you know, vulnerable species. It also ends up being a helpful for commercial fisheries. 'Cause it gives, it provides sanctuary for- Right, the populations are more robust. Right, for nurseries. To be able to bounce back, I get it. Someone's calling online. Nurseries for fish populations to bounce back, so that like you just said. So the WSL has set up a website called weareoneocean.org and they want you to sign a petition that will go to the UN convention on biological diversity which is being held in China in May, 2021. And it, the petition is basically asking the UN to set this 30 by 30 standard and then let the countries to decide amongst themselves, you know, each country will take that standard and then decide how much of the coastal waters will be preserved, how much of it will be in national waters and then how much in international waters can be preserved. Because some of the problem is there's over fishing in international waters where there's nobody regulating, right. The US is very good at regulating our fisheries. We actually have great fishery regulation. I would argue I've looked into this for some stories and it's the best in the world from what I can tell. And fishery management is going up in all sorts of countries around the world. But at the same time, we have fishing boats on the very edge of the Galápagos National Park, commercial fishing boats and sharks are getting taken and everything's getting taken right at the very edge of that. So what does that tell us? It tells us two things. One is, MPAs work because there's a reason those fishing boats are right at the other end of an MPA, right? And some people are worried they're coming into the national park. That's a question that people are looking at but they tell us that these kinds of things work. But eventually, you know, if you have a nursery of fish, they will go out, they need to go into the open ocean and that's when you should be able to fish for them. And so the other thing it tells us is that we do need patrol this kind of thing. We need higher patrols in the areas that are marine protected areas. Now there is organized opposition that has popped up against the WSL. Some recreational fishermen are not happy that are also surfers that pay attention to what the WSL does. And they've been pushing back on this idea of 30 by 30 partly because in California, there's an effort to get 30% of the ocean and 30% of the land preserved by 2030. There was a ballot measure that failed, and now there's a movement in the assembly to try to get that done. And so commercial fishermen have put out talking points and are very much against that. This is not that, this is not the WSL saying California needs to do X, Y, or Z, or even the United States. This is the UN Convention on Biological Diversity. Let's set this standard and then let's the countries work together to try to figure out the best way to do it. Right, in kind of a Paris agreement type of contacts. Exactly the perfect analogy. Well, a couple of things, first of all, like leave it to the surfers. Surfers are always at the Vanguard, with respect to ocean preservation. So thank you for your service. And it's certainly laudable. And when you look at it broadly, it's like how hard can it be to, you know, our oceans are so vast, can't we set aside 30%? That should be a no brainer and very easily accomplished but I'm envisioning all of these countries getting together to try to hash out which parts are protected in which aren't. And and I can just see that being a shit show in terms of- Well it's already happened, right. So they're like in Antarctica, Louis Pugh, the great swimmer that has swum in Antarctica before. Amazing, amazing guy. He swims in Greenland and Antarctica wherever he can to raise awareness of climate change. And the reason he wants MPAs, there's one, I think Western Antarctica and East Antarctica, one of them has already been declared an MPA. What does that MPA stand for? Marine protected areas. Okay. And so in the marine protected area, you can not, some of them you can fish recreationally fish, but you can't commercially fish. You can't deep sea mine, which is a threat now, you can't drill for oil and gas, that kind of stuff. And so he was trying to get East Antarctica to become an MPA. And it would be, it would create the biggest marine protected area in the, in the history of humanity, all around Antarctica which is always supposed to be about the betterment of the the human family, right. The world governments came together and they never fought over Antarctica. It was always seen as this place where it shouldn't be about commercial enterprise, should be about science and wellbeing. And he went down and swam in a glacier melt and he did out this great thing. And he was trying to get the UN to sign on to make this MPA happen. And China and Russia held out, and so just took one no vote basically of the Treaty of Antarctica. We weren't a member of that, it's basically whoever signed onto the Treaty of Antarctica in the early days, they were the votes on it. And those two, China and Russia held out. So this isn't a slam dunk, but we do need to recognize that we have a problem in our ocean. It's so vast, like you said, it seems like nothing can harm it is suffering. So we are one ocean, what's the website? Weareoneocean.org .org, right, and you can sign the petition there. There's a video, there's also another link, the WDRV, the IT link, That was one kind of- Kind of like a video- That was kind of presentation to journalists. So it was kind of like, it's not really wide. The weareoneocean.org is the one you want. And you know, Italo Ferreira, the World Champion Surfers is on board with this. A lot of major surfers are on board with this. My friend, Reese Pacheco is the kind of brain behind it at WSL PURE. And you know, on this, he gets into the CO2. Why it matters that the ocean is warmer than ever? What can we do besides CO2 emissions to significantly reduce other major stressors like over fishing and offshore oil development, blah, blah, blah. And that is setting aside, you know, big chunks of the ocean. Cool, man, well, keep us posted. Everybody check out that petition give it your signature. Let's do it. And let's move on to listener questions. Listener question. So this one came in from Adam, from Santa Monica. Oh, wait, that's me. (Adam laughs) I am, I was gonna say this, the reason- You should have actually called in and left a voicemail and then we could play it. I should have. Adam from Santa Monica is beyond outrage. This, we talked about this. We were one to pivot away from talking about anything political that last bit aside, because I'm just like- The sort of content moderation is highly political as well. It is, but we're not really talking about like party politics and that kind of stuff. We're talking about issues that concern us all. But I'm kind of, so beyond outrage, I couldn't watch the impeachment, I didn't want anything, I didn't have any more energy for it. And I was just thinking like how do we move beyond outrage as a people? Because I've always found anger to be very powerful. It's a powerful tool. It can drive you in productive ways but if it stagnates, it can become bitterness which I think we saw on your feed, some of that. And bitterness is so counterproductive. I think it fuels almost everything bad that we see that kind of bubbles to the surface here lately. So I guess the question is, you know, how do you move beyond outrage and anger? Yeah, I mean, isn't that the $64 question? I mean, yeah, you're mine as well my outrage stores have been depleted. I feel incapable of it at the moment, but you know, I have to also recognize that that depletion of my outrage is perhaps, you know, on some level, a function of privilege, you know, because I'm not in need at the moment. And I think we have to deconstruct this question from two perspectives. From the kind of greater social community aspects of outrage and what's feeling that and what the antidote is and then our own individual behavior that we can take responsibility for. Because I think broadly, culturally, nationally, we're not gonna be able to move beyond outrage until we solve some very large problems that we face, most particularly the wage gap. You know, we're in situation where the middle-class has disappeared. The division between the haves and the haves nots have never been greater in the midst of the pandemic. The richest people have enriched themselves beyond measure when they could have used that wealth to, you know, basically confront the coronavirus pandemic for the benefit of the less well off. Like there's plenty of things that the most landed gentry class in our country could have been a service to us in a way that we didn't see, right? Yes. Meanwhile, people are losing their jobs, they're losing their health insurance. We're not seeing any real effort regarding like how to resolve any of this and that that wealth gap is only going to exacerbate. And I think, you know, over the course of history, if you study history, when that gap becomes too large, the foundations upon which that culture are embedded begin to fracture and either revolution or some other force intervenes and that's how changes in government occur. When we have so many people who are suffering at the moment we can't begrudge them for their outrage. Now that outrage gets stoked by the new cycle and social media apps that, you know, provoke that outrage and, you know, exacerbate it to some extent. And I think we all need to be aware of the extent to which our anger gets triggered. But I'm sympathetic to people who are outraged right now because their lives are not what they should be or what they could be in this moment. On an individual basis, when I look at my own, how I can support myself and how I behave and how I deal with people who are outraged or I'm in a context in which somebody is angry at me I have to think about the conversation that I had with Adam Grant, you know, and how he talks about and how the science, what the science reveals about how to have more productive conversations and how to ameliorate tensions. And again, it's not like I haven't talked about this before. It all goes back to leading with empathy, you know, entering these conversations with humility and with curiosity, as opposed to a need or a desire to change somebody else's mind. If you ask somebody that's interesting, that that's how you feel or that's the way you see things. Tell me more about that, or walk me through the process of how you arrived at that conclusion. I think that's always the way in but when you come at it aggressively, then you're in a position where you're butting heads, nobody's mind is getting changed and you're just basically doubling down on the difference and the acrimony that lives in breeze between two different people. Yeah. Further to that, what is the solution? If you enter those conversations with that spirit of empathy, humility and curiosity, well, you have to be willing to sit down for a while, right. And that's where I think long form conversations come in. That's why I believe in podcasting so much as an antidote to all of this. You know, podcasting because of the open nature source of it, the fact that it's an RSS feed and that it's not about clickbait titles and, you know, trying to, you know, game the system, not that the system doesn't get gamed in other ways, but there's something unique about it. There is no, like podcasting suffers from a discoverability problem. Like, unlike YouTube or other things like you, it's difficult to find new stuff and it's difficult to kind of game, you can't do it with a clickbait title, right. So I believe that the best stuff eventually rises to the top and my hope, and my belief is that, you know, these types of long form conversations are what people need right now and we crave it. Nobody wants to live in a place of fear, anger and acrimony as familiar as it might feel right now. And I think that's a reason why people are courting on to these long form podcasts, because there is it is self to that in some regard. Yeah, and I think, you know, there's also, individually we have to kind of solve our own wounds as well at the same time, because outrage, you can't run on outrage no matter what. It's not a sustainable fuel source, right. It's just not, no matter where you are in the world and you know, how rightfully outraged you may be. You gotta figure out a way to fuel yourself some other way, you know, from some other inspiration, because really the only solutions like you said, are some structural changes. Some changes for us to like figure out a way to live better together. It's a unity really is the only answer. Right, and recognizing that not everybody, you know, is on the same starting line. There's so many of us, myself included, you know, had tremendous advantages and we have to reckon with that. And we've got to, you know, create social systems that provide greater opportunity for people that, you know, you know, weren't blessed with what I was blessed with, you know, growing up and we need to address that. We need to address the, you know, the wealth inequality, there's so many problems, right. So I guess what I'm saying is, you know, it's not a simple matter of like just comport yourself better. Like we have systemic problems that we have to solve. And so to be outraged, at the outrage is not the solution either. No, but you know, I guess the biggest problem with the outrage level that we have to me is it's not, that's outrage is not a path towards solving those problems. Right. Ultimately, you know, it's a path- It's an understandable reaction but ultimately it's not a path to solution. It might be a path to garnering some sort of political power that can put you in onto the path of actually making the change though. So, you know, we're done with outrage for a little while. You think? Well, I don't know, you speak too soon my friend. I would not- I'm fueled by rage, okay, it's okay. But I'm just tired of the familiar, the familiar tune. All right, let's move over to Redondo Beach. This is a out of the box question for you. It is a little bit. I know, how do you feel about it? Well, we're gonna play it first, right? Oh, that's right. Hi, rich and Adam. This is Madeleine, I live in Redondo Beach. I just have a question about romance. I recently went through a big breakup. I was living with my boyfriend and I had to make kind of a life shift and so now I'm dating again. I've been going on the app and it's kind of hard to find someone with a similar mindset. I've been a vegan for 11 years. I'm a long-time listener of Rich's podcasts and my ex was an Ironman athlete. And so because of that relationship I got really into endurance running and I ran my first marathon last year. Anyway, going through the app, swiping through, I try to look for pictures of runners, but they're just not coming up. I don't know if it's because it's LA and I'm getting a lot of actors or so on. And I was just wondering if you guys had some advice of where to find these guys? It's also kind of hard with COVID because I can't really like join a running club right now. Anyways, thought this could be a fun question to answer in your podcast. Love the show. Thanks so much, bye. Wow, well, thanks Madeline. It is a fun question. It is a very fun question and it brings up all kinds of emotions in me because on the one hand, let's face it. I am a defacto relationship expert, Adam, by pure dent of being in a relationship for 22 years, all I to do is be in a relationship for a long time. and now I'm a relationship expert. You're an expert but the thing is you're an expert of your relationship. Yes, this is true. On the other hand, I have no idea how to give advice on dating. I haven't dated in decades. Particularly dating advice in a pandemic or anything having to do with dating apps, 'cause I've never been on a dating app in my entire life. Were you a serial dater? No. I'm the guy who goes from relationship to relationship. I've never been able to date like multiple people at the same time. I don't know how people do that. So essentially I'm very ill-equipped to help you out here. And one of my kind of core things is that I always root any advice that I give on, you know, I based it on my personal experience. I have no personal experience with dating. I wasn't trying to date in a pandemic or having to date, you know, in any recent decade. Your only date is like since the '80s So with that, you know, I feel like, like DK or Davey should sit here 'cause they know well- Dvey? Much more about this than I do. But I will say this, you know, obviously the instinct to connect with like-minded people is a good instinct and that's certainly compromised in a situation in which personal interaction is so compromised. And I can say generally that I think there's a lot of good in dating apps and helping people figure out how to connect with people that are like-minded to them but they're not an effective stand in for what is, or is not real. Like, I have friends that are on Raya. Have you ever seen Raya? No. And people- What's Raya? They spend like tens of thousands of dollars on like, like basically these show reels to basically you know, like it's crazy. What goes into like creating profiles on this app so that people can look- Is Raya like the high end one, that can be like a cool. Yeah, it's like a crazy high end and you have to get invited on it and all that kind of stuff. I have a friend who's been digitally dating somebody for weeks that he had never met. They spent like countless hours on FaceTime and texting and stuff like that. And then they finally met in person the other day. And he was like, he knew immediately that he didn't wanna date her. But even though he was like a (mumbles) with this person on FaceTime for umpteen hours, the minute that he met her, he was like, yeah, this is not gonna work. Wow. Which I thought was a really interesting testament to the, you know, the fallibility of- Digital. Of trying to interact with somebody digitally. That or he needs to run the four by four 48. Maybe he does, yeah, I don't know. I dunno, I mean, I, you know, I think there are no running clubs right now because of the pandemic. But what you can do is you can still go running and you can go running where people go running, even though the clubs have canceled their get together. And you can do like digital networking in those clubs, like Facebook group, kind of staff. Yeah, you can do all of that and you can trust in chance encounters and double down on your, you know, analog experiences. But I also think because we're being restricted from interacting with people in this moment, that it's a unique opportunity to do the work on yourself that maybe you have been reluctant to today in the sense that you reconfigure your focus, rather than chasing a mate or trying to find that person that you think is gonna make your life better, that'll make you feel better or fill some whole, instead, try to work on becoming the person that your ideal mate would want to be with. And I think when you shift that focus in that manner you in turn, over time, become like this magnet who then attracts the right person to you as opposed to being the person who's out there fishing or chasing all of the time. So it's like a power differential and it's kind of a spiritual equation, but I think it's, I think it it's, it works and it's effective. Like I just know so many people that are just like, they're unhappy in their lives and they're like, if I just could date this person, if I could just find this person, like my life would be better. But they don't have what that person they aspire to be with, they don't have the qualities that that person would find attractive, right. And they think that that person is going to complete them. When in truth, you have to become complete yourself, right. And when you can focus on that, on that personal growth trajectory that you're on, you become this more attractive person to the mate that you seek or the world more broadly. Yeah, it's great advice. You know, going on the apps is overfishing and tuning into yourself is sustainable fishing. Is that? Let me think about that. That's my that's my- Turning in yourself is sustainable fishing. Yes, you tuning yourself to overcome- Is that the title of his podcasts episode? You become- Tune into yourself- You become the- Sustainably fish your soul. You become the fish they all chase. All right, I can live with that, I got it. I like that one. I don't know if that was very helpful to Madeline, but- Well, it's disappointing 'cause no one wants to be told just tune into yourself and forget about dating 'cause when you you're out of a relationship- But I don't have the answer, like, oh, you should call this number or go to this website. And here's where all the people are hanging out secretly. No. Well, there are those secret parties though. I know there are. There was an article in the LA Times about the secret gyms. Yeah. Did you see that? No, I saw the secret parties one. Yeah, I saw that too, but there was one about like people who've set up gyms in their garages and there's like a whole underground network of where, 'cause all the hardcore fanatic gym rats needed a place to go when all the gyms closed. And so they're like speakeasies, right. Like you got to know somebody and a password and then you can get into this. That's what these parties are. And like, like the parties are getting shut, then Garcetti shut down like the power to some of these houses. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they had it all done. Yeah, maybe, I don't know Madeline, I don't have the, I don't have the password for any of these eyes wide shut, you know, running speakeasy situations. They probably exist somewhere. They probably do and you don't wanna go. Right. But you know, you're gonna be all right. That's a fun question. You're obviously a fun person- And you live in Redondo Beach. Go run on the strand, go run up to Manhattan Beach and back. There's so many people out there. Exactly. I'm sure that you can find somebody. And I'm not saying avoid actors, but avoid actors. Yeah, that that's definitely, I love that. I'm getting a lot of actors on the apps. I think if I had to go on, if I ever was single and had to go on the apps again, I would like my bio would be like says the wrong thing and mixed company or (laughs) Well, there's a lot of tongue in cheek with that too. Again, I'm speaking out of school. Cause I don't know, it's all anecdote and from my friends that dating- I was on the apps like about five minutes and it was so bad. Like I met one person and they didn't look anything like their picture. And then I got traumatized and I couldn't go. I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go and unlog. You know what I say to that? Okay, boomer, You know, what's funny. That's a good one. And then we'll pivot to the last question. And I think there was an article in the Atlantic about this but we were talking about it at dinner the other night. In this whole conversation around Gen Y and and Gen Z and millennials. And how like Gen Z doesn't like the millennials and like all the kinds of like- Zoomers and boomers Right, the zoomers and the boomers and all of that. Yeah. No mention of Gen X. It's how we like it, we are stealth. It's just my generation. I know, fully stealth slack. We'll never have a president? Won't you slacker to even participate in that cultural discussion. We'll listen, the, the Gen X-ers, we don't want cancel culture because it's just like we wanted to be like the iconic classic culture, like the iconic classic generation. Like we, we liked people that said the wrong thing. We kind of like, we liked punk rock and things like that. And now that's turning out that our tastes in like pop culture and didn't save the world. So now we're gonna have to siege the stage to people who have better ideas. Right, but why does Gen X get lost in this conversation? I think, I feel like we just get lumped in as boomers. Now we're getting lumped in as boomers. Because everybody who's not, if you're Gen Z, anybody who's not Gen Z and maybe slightly millennial is a boomer. There's that great overheard LA thing on Instagram where it was like overheard in a coffee shop. Okay, boomer. And then the parent, the daughter said, okay, boomer. And the parents said something like, I'm not a boomer, honey, I'm Gen X. Okay, boomer. Right, yeah, that's what I'm saying, it doesn't matter. We're lumped in. It doesn't matter. We're just, we're boomers. Which is too bad, because I shared my the skepticism of boomers as well, well-documented. Right, and boomers are nothing like Gen X. No, they had, they had the summer of love, we had the AIDS epidemic. It's basically just a way of saying you're clueless. Being a boomer? Well, okay boomer just means like you're, you've tapped out. Like time to see the stage, old man. We don't have to see the stage yet. This is what I'm saying. Yeah, so you want Gen X to be factored into these discussions? I like Gen X being ignored. You like it being ignored? I like being ignored. Right. It surprise them from the side. It probably is better that way. But I don't like being accused of being a boomer. You know, who does? That's it's like being a Karen. Is it that bad, I don't know? It's just that bad. All right. We digress, final question. Elizabeth from the Nanaimo British Columbia. My friend, Justin Chatwin's from there. Hi rich, hi Adam. My name is Elizabeth and I am in Nanaimo British Columbia. Firstly, I want to say how much I enjoy your Roll On conversations. Rich, I also wanna thank you for providing a platform to educate and challenge listeners to expand their perspectives and their awareness. I credit you with encouraging me to consider a plant-based lifestyle for myself and also through your guests and your own perspective. I've made that change in my own life, to great benefits. I'm really interested in getting your perspective on leadership. Something I value and treasure about your podcast and perspective is your self-awareness and your willingness to examine yourself and your life. I'm curious what your perspective is on leadership. How do you show up to lead your team? Do you have any advice for spiritual self-aware individuals that value doing a work on themselves on how to show up in a professional setting and/or perhaps ideas on how to blend self-awareness and personal growth with leadership and encourage your team to do the same? What a cool question, Elizabeth. I know. Thank you for that. I don't know if anybody's ever really asked me about leadership before. It is, it's fascinating. I will admit that I haven't spent a lot of time pondering leadership and probably less time studying it over the years. But I have started thinking about it a little bit more and shouldering this mantle more recently because I now employ people which is something I never thought would happen. So I guess I would, I would launch into this response by saying I'm a reluctant leader. I don't consider myself a thought leader or a leader of teams. I think of myself as a solopreneur somebody who relishes quiet alone time. I'm fundamentally a writer in disposition. And I always kind of consider myself suited to doing my own thing and wanting to be left alone. I mean, that's still my greatest desire, just to be left alone, right. Yes. But I recognize that I've created this situation. (Adam laughs) That places me now in the context of having to lead much more than I would've ever wanted to realize. And with the growth of the podcast, like I said, I have people that I employ now, I'm a boss. I am a subcontractor, you don't employ me. You you're not. Yes, you don't report to me. (Adam laughs) I'll double now on you. I am a boss though, which is weird. And I admit it's a little bit uncomfortable for me but it's forced me to kind of wrestle with some growth stuff because what I say, how I say it, and more importantly, like what I do, how I comport myself, how I handle myself matters to other people in my immediate orbit. And so I have started kind of thinking about these issues in a more meaningful way recently. I won't say that I have any kind of specific philosophy of leadership, but I do have a few touchdowns. And, and many of those, I have to say I credit to my business partner, Greg Anzalone. Like I've learned so much from this guy. I just think he's an exemplary human being and leader. Greg is the CEO of Sideshow, Sideshow Collectibles. That's really, you know what, like he's my business partner but really his business is Sideshow which makes limited edition collectible figures from pop culture, like all the Star Wars stuff and Marvel stuff, like these limited runs of like beautiful, you know, the "Baby Yoda" is their product, stuff like that. And Greg is somebody I've come to really deeply admire and respect as one of the most effective and compassionate leaders that I've ever met. And somebody who in so many ways mimics the findings and the research of Adam Grant who's the guy in the podcast this week. A guy who studied leadership deeply for many, many years. And so some of those touchstones are, and this is coming from Greg, it's about the people not the product that the employees come before the widget, right. Like the organization is set up not to make widgets but to empower people's lives with meaning and purpose. I've learned that it's wise to approach every situation with a giving mindset. It's not about what you can get out of a situation but how you can better support the people beneath you. I've learned that it's about action and behavior. What you say is important, but that must be aligned with your actions, which obviously speak louder than words. And if your actions are misaligned with your words, then you faltered. So I think that's been super helpful to me. I'm a perfectionist. So learning that progress is better than perfection, is a lesson hard wrought for myself. Something that I'm getting used to because your perfectionism might help you create something that will get you to a certain level. But if you wanna create large S in a sustainable way, you have to empower the people around you. And those people have their own ways of doing things. And that's not always gonna meet up with how you would do things. So holding on too tightly to your ideas I think becomes an inhibitor to growth. So learning how to let go and empower other people I think is super important. I think anticipating the needs of the people that you work with is really powerful, like creating solutions to problems before they arise because you can see where things are headed before they even get there. One of the things I've seen Greg do is just surprise and delight the people that work underneath him and alongside him by showing up in ways that others in a position of leadership don't because they're thinking about themselves and Greg's always thinking about other people and he'll just show up and do the thing that nobody would have ever expected. And sometimes they're big gestures and sometimes they're little gestures, but they're always very meaningful. Like Greg will, you know, find housing for an employee or do something that like a CEO or a person in a position of leadership just wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't think that they would be thinking about the people who work beneath them in such a meaningful way. And that's been, you know, really kind of amazing to see him do that time and time again, and has impacted me. I think in terms of leadership, thinking about how to play the long game is super important. Not over-indexing for short-term profitability or productivity, but rather thinking broadly about creating and establishing sustainable systems that allow people to flourish and do their best work, not in a highly pressurized environment, but giving them a little bit of bandwidth so that they can feel secure in their expression. I think is huge. Adam has this great quote, Adam Grant, which is the most meaningful way to succeed is to help others succeed. And it seems simple, but I think it's powerful to not perceive the world as some kind of zero sum equation but to look at things from a broader more spiritual perspective, that the universe is infinitely abundant. So with that give freely of yourself and service to others. And not only does that come back in your direction tenfold, it engenders amazing trust and loyalty in the people that you work with. See we are back to the Dallas philosophy. I mean, that's really the whole, like the middle way is the Dallas philosophy is. If the few have much and the many have little, that's totally completely anti the way the, like the nature of the Dow and the idea is to, is to have everyone sharing the abundance. And so like the fact that, that you're citing that as a driving philosophy for your business, well, for your business. If countries worked out that way, like, you know, in Scandinavia, countries who have expanded social safety net and are able to, you know, yes, the taxes might be higher to have healthcare and public education at a high level and X, Y and Z, but if you actually look at everyone's bank account, everyone has more money. The rich and the lower, lower working class and the middle-class, there is no lower class. And so if you look at it that way, everyone does better when there's enough for everyone. And the way we have it in our mind is, well, if I have to pay this as less for me, you know, that person should get, should get more themselves, you know. Right. But that's just not how it works, you know. If everyone did better, everyone would do better. It's very simple but unfortunately, you know, we do have a leadership, I love this question, because we have a leadership vacuum in this world right now. There's not a lot of effective leaders you can point to that are getting the job done on a global or national level. There's a few that we sometimes identify, but it's hard. And I think the great leadership everything's, like the best leaders, it's all happening local, in people's homes and people's businesses and I think Greg's amazing. It's been so cool to meet him and learn from him so well, said. Yeah, 100%. And just, and, and having a moral compass and having your actions aligned with that perspective, right? Like, isn't that what leadership is? It's not, it's not just, you know, bending to whatever is in your self-interest in the moment which seems to be the hallmark of current times, but rather, you know, heating a greater call and being willing to sacrifice yourself first in the interest of that. And I think when you demonstrate that as a leader that's very powerful for the people that are following you. Agreed, well said. We did it, dude. We got to the end. Right on, how do you feel? I feel good, man. I feel a lighter and also like that I have to be a little more introspective as I approach this weekend of hell awaiting me. You do. You got some work to do for yourself. I do. On the subject of feeling good, we should say that our buddies, Giorgio and Arthur and their "Feels Good Man" documentary did not make the Oscar shortlist. I'm sad to say, but if you have yet to check out that movie, please go to Apple Plus and make a point of watching it and let's support those guys. We need more cool indie filmmakers out there. We do. Their work should be celebrated. How do you feel rich? I feel good, man. I feel good, I love talking to you, man. This was super fun. And it was nice to kinda pivot back to more of my sweet spot in terms of things I like to talk about. Yeah, there was no, you know, giant social political explosion this week that forced us to focus on something that is a little bit outside of, you know, what are the things that I enjoy most talking about. Hopefully this is the new normal where we don't have to say attention. Like I said, just stop it right there. You know, we'll see we're taking it day by day friend. It is 2021. Cool. All right, let's wrap it up. Thank you, Adam. Always a delight to share space with you. You can follow Adam @adamskolnick on Twitter and Instagram. You can leave us a message at [phone]. As always, check the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com where you can dive deeper into all the things we talked about today. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, all the good places. Again, we created a clips channel on YouTube. So if you like short chunks, you can check that out links in the show notes and in the description below if you're watching this on YouTube or you can just search Rich Roll Podcast clips on YouTube. What else? I think that's it, man. I appreciate everybody. Yeah, thanks for- I worked hard to put on today's show. Yeah, and thanks for all the calls, guys. All the questions- Yeah, we appreciate that. We really appreciate it. I wanna thank Greg Anzalone for his leadership as always. Yes, Greg. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering production, show notes and interstitial music. Blake Curtis for handling video duties. Jessica Miranda for graphics. David Greenberg for his beautiful portraits. Georgia Whaley, for copywriting DK who is in the house right now, for advertiser relationships and theme as always by my boys, Tyler Trapper and Harry. Appreciate the love you guys, see you back here in a couple of days with another amazing episode. Until then, peace plants- Namaste.

Channel: Rich Roll

Views: 39,315

Keywords: rich roll, rich roll podcast, self-improvement podcasts, education podcasts, health podcasts, wellness podcasts, fitness podcasts, spirituality podcasts, mindfulness podcasts, mindset podcast, vegan podcasts, plant-based nutrition

Id: CSXgpgQDQ-8

Length: 119min 15sec (7155 seconds)

Published: Thu Feb 18 2021