- Dr. Shabir, welcome
to Let The Quran Speak. - Pleasure to be on. - I wanna talk about
the Tablighi Jamaat. They are are a
movement that aims to call Muslims, followers,
back to the faith. And there are millions of
followers all over the world, mostly in Southeast Asia. Dr. Shabir, can you tell
me a little bit about what the goals of
this movement is? - The goals are actually
identified in six points, which are regularly preached. But if we summarize
those six points, we can say that
the overall goal is to make Muslims better Muslims. And the thought is that,
behind the movement, is that, look, Muslims
as they are now, we can see that Muslims
overall as a global community, as an ummah, do not have
that kind of status and glory that we used to
have in the past. So how can we
recover that glory? Some people think it's
by going into politics and getting political power and imposing Islam as a way
to be followed, and so on. But this movement, it takes a
different approach and says, no, even if you have political
power, if you don't have people who are sincerely
devoted to the faith, like what are they
going to impose with their political power? It won't be Islam.
It'll be something else. To them, the most
important thing is to develop the individual, make the individual
Muslims good human beings. They're devoted-- - So spiritual development. - Spiritual development, yes.
- Okay. - And make them
sincere to the faith and good servants of God. And then, if they
get political power, then they will be able to
implement political power for the benefit of humankind according to the
dictates of God. Otherwise, you give
them political power,
they'll misuse it. So, to them, the main thrust
and the unwavering focus is on the spiritual
development of Muslims to say it in Arabic,
(speaks in Arabic). - So how do they focus on
that spiritual development? What do they do? - So I mentioned the six points. So let me just
elaborate on that. And that will explain a lot. So, the six points that
they always emphasize in their preaching
and in everything, is that first, that we must
get a clear conception of and attachment to the
pronouncement of faith that makes a person Muslim. That, simply put, is
the Kalima of Islam, which says there
is no God, but God, and that Muhammad is
the messenger of God. So we should be thoroughly
committed to that. We're not gonna worship
anyone other than God, we're gonna be intensely
devoted to God. And also, we're
gonna follow the way of the Prophet Muhammad,
peace be upon him. Because just simply pronouncing that he's the messenger of God is not the end of the matter. By making that
official pronouncement that makes a person Muslim, we are actually committing
ourselves to, you know, act as if he's the
messenger of God. So he brought a message from God for us to follow and practice. So we should follow him
as an example that was set from God as a human
being for us to follow. So that's the first point. The second point is the prayers. The daily prayers of
Muslims, according to them, is a paramount importance,
trumping all other obligations. And we may as well
get this one right. And if we get this one right, then other things
will fall into place. So, be sincerely
devoted in your prayers, do them on time,
regularly, without fail. Do them in the mosque, if you have the opportunity
to do so and so on. This is all emphasized. And then have
sincerity and devotion within the prayer itself. A person may be praying here, but his mind is wandering
all over the place. Be devoted in the prayer. So that's the second point. The third point is actually
a combination of two points, which they say go hand in hand. And one is 'ilm, knowledge, and the other is dhikr,
our remembrance of God. They say that the two
are like two wings and you need both to fly. So if somebody has
knowledge of the religion but they don't have
the attachment to God, then that knowledge can get
them puffed up with pride. That would be harmful to them. And if they have the
remembrance of God they're attached to God, they wanna please
God in every way but they don't
have the knowledge, they may do something wrong, thinking that they're
gonna please God, thereby. So you need both
to balance it out. The proper knowledge and the attachment to
God, going hand in hand. So that's the third point,
which is a combination of two. And the fourth point they say, is that we should
honor other Muslims. They call this (speaks Arabic). And of course, we should all honor all
human beings, as Muslims, but there is a
particular emphasis within this movement
to honor Muslims because they are
your first call. They're, you know, this is where
the charity begins at home. If you can't be good
to your fellow Muslims how can you be good
to anyone else? So, you know, recognize
the value of Muslims. These are people who,
like you, are saying, the Kalima of Islam, there's no God but God, Muhammad is the
messenger of God. These are dear to God. As long as the person
remains saying Allah, Allah, the God will keep the
universe in establishment. And so you see how valuable
the human being is, the Muslim in particular. So honor the Muslim, respect
and serve other Muslims. And the fifth point
they is (speaks Arabic), correcting the intention. One might be doing
a lot of good work. One might be giving charity, but he wants to
do this for show. Don't do it for show, do
it for the pleasure of God. And always keep
correcting your intention whatever good deed you're doing. Check yourself at the beginning. Am I gonna do this
for the sake the God? Check yourself in the middle. Did my intention change
somewhere in between? Did Satan cause me to
veer from the right path, and suddenly I'm doing
it for my own sake, for my own name, and
fame and personal glory? And then check yourself
at the end as well, after you've done
everything, you know, don't say, okay, I've
done a good job there. But ask yourself, did you really do it
for the pleasure of God? So, this is emphasized a lot. Check your intention
and correct it, you know, along the way. Finally, the sixth point is that you should set
aside time, dedicate time to learn and preach
the religion to, to learn, to develop
your own self, really. So this entails going out in
what they call (speaks Arabic), going out in the way of Allah, to use the Arabic term. And that would entail that
you are giving at least 10% of all intervals of time. So, in a day you might wanna
spend two and a half hours. You've done your daily routines. You've gone to work
eight hours in the day. You've looked after your
family and all of that. So two and a half
hours, go to the mosque and see how you can
serve the mission within this two and
a half hours' time. Three days within a month,
of course it's piling up. So it's now becoming 20% because three days
in a month is 10%. Two and a half hours each
day is already more than 10%. So it's a combined right? Overlapping. But three days within
a month, you go away, you can leave your family,
your business, and all of that. You're gonna go, as they
say in the way of God. And you're gonna be during
this, these three days, you're gonna be
developing yourself, immersing in worship
and reading the Quran, and also in preaching the
message to other people and finally, or not
necessarily finally, but penultimately, 40
days in every year. So, you know, 40 days
times 10 would've been 400. So it's at least 10%. And then, at least
once in a lifetime, one should go for four
months altogether. So in a four months stretch, one, they say, would have
a life-changing experience. You would be firmly then
placed on the mission. You would have, now,
everything clear to you as a result of spending the
four months, all at once, detached from all of
your worldly commitments, your job and all of that. But you've gone out in
a kind of a sabbatical. I should add that, you know, this idea of 10% is
my own take. I've-- - Okay. - I should, and maybe this is a good point at which I can
mention that though, the mission is dear to me because I am actually one of
the products of that mission. And, you know, I used to go out, but I didn't do the four months. - Okay. - And what I did, I
didn't do so very well, but you know, may God
forgive me for that. - But, you know-- - So what did you learn
from that experience? - Well, there were
a lot of good things that I learned from
that, you know. One thing that I hope I
still carry is humility. In the mission, like
no one, as a preacher, like, I spoke about
these six points. You can see, I was
able to almost rattle
them out, because-- - Yes, I was surprised by that. - Even though it's
been decades now, but I mean, I had a
refresher, but still, I spoke about it many
times, but you know, when as part of that
mission and its work, no speaker is introduced. Nobody comes at the
beginning and say, you know, I'm a master of ceremonies and I'm now gonna introduce
you this great speaker, because the idea in
the mission is that, well, God is great. And we're gonna celebrate the
greatness and glory of God not the glory of any individual. We're not gonna say that here
it is, this great person. The person doesn't matter. What matters is the message and is the message about
God and God matters. - I think I was reading
also that, like, people have different
responsibilities and these
responsibilities change, and it could be like,
someone could cook and someone could serve and
someone would do something else. And those are shared. And that same cook could
be the one standing up to advise the rest of the
congregation about something, right? - Exactly, exactly. Now you've asked me, you
know, what would they do? So I, you know, and I got
caught up with the six points. But if we have time, I will
mention that, you know, when we went out, like
for the three days, so what would we do
in the three days? So in the three days,
within the month, we would go out to,
to another community. We would go and
stay in a mosque. And that would be our living
quarters for the three days. Of course, we would
wrap up our beddings and put them all aside
nicely during the daytime, especially when people might
come to people a mosque. But at night, you know, we
roll out our sleeping bags. We'll sleep there in the mosque. But then how do we eat? You know, one nice idea would've been
to say to the community, okay, we are here as servants
of God, bring us some food. But no, the idea within
that mission is that you must be self-sufficient
and relying only on God, not on people. So actually you're
building reliance on God through this whole
missionary work. And so you have to
cook your own food. So typically, mosques
would have a kitchen. Not every mosque does, but of course we
would choose the ones that would have a kitchen. So that we can go there,
cook our own food. So we would gather, let's say
we're 10 persons in the group. So we'll sit down for a shura, a council meeting, a
mutual consultation. One person is already
designated as the emir, as the leader of
the whole group. The leader will be
consulting with others. Okay. So who will buy
the rations for us? So two persons might be
assigned to go buy the rations. Who will do the cooking for us? Two persons might be
assigned to do the cooking, maybe the same two persons. While the cooking is going on, somebody has to be
connected to God. That's how this whole group
is gonna be connected to God, you know, through
remembrance of God. Who is gonna be assigned
for the remembrance of God? So two persons might be
assigned just for that purpose. That's all they do. They're gonna remember God by
praising his name, you know, (speaks Arabic), Allahu Akbar, glory be to God, praise be
to God, God is the greatest. Repeating this over and
over or reading the Quran, or something like this. So, you know, these
acts of devotion that will keep the the
group connected with God. And two persons
would wanna go out to connect with the community. So they would go visit
Muslims home to home and tell them, look, we have a group here
visiting from X, Y, Z place. And we're talking
there about God and our responsibilities to God about the same Kalima
that we all believe in, (speaks Arabic),
there's no God but God, Muhammad is the
messenger of God. We'd like you to come out
and be part of that activity, you know, for the three
days that we're here. Please come out and join us. So we're inviting
others to come. And when they come, we're
gonna preach to them, you know, after
one of the prayers. So we're going to assign
somebody to do the preaching. And you're right. One of the persons who
was doing the cooking may be the same person who goes
and does the speech as well, without any proper, any introduction that
celebrates his qualification, he doesn't need
any qualification. These are such basic
points that it is thought that almost any
Muslim can, you know, with a little bit of
experience with the group, start to speak about
the same points. And of course, during the day, as we are staying in the
mosque with nothing else to do, no job, no family to look after, what are we gonna
do during the day? So maybe 10 o'clock in the
morning, for two hours, we have each a learning session. And in that learning session, we might be studying some
of these same points. So by the time one
has gone through some of these study sessions, eventually one is
equipped to give the talk. So, so far I've said a
lot of positive things--. - It does sound like, you
know, Boy Scouts or something, like a fun camp,
in some respects. - I mean, it does involve a
certain degree of adventure. I mean, you're
going to a new town. Maybe you haven't
seen that town before, and its people and its
mosque and all of that. But it's not their...
it's not fun and games. - Yes, I know. - [Dr. Shabir] It's, you know-- - So let's say, Dr. Shabir, somebody was thinking of
joining this movement. What advice would you give them? Are there any sort of weaknesses that they should be aware of? - Well, yeah. So far
we've talked about, you can see how
excited am I about it. - Yes. - But that doesn't mean that
there aren't any weaknesses. I mean, any human movement is
gonna have some weaknesses. - Of course. - God is perfect.
Human beings are not. And what we devise as human
beings will have some drawbacks. And, you know, sometimes, we
don't have that full vision. We don't see the whole picture. So because of how the movement
began, where it began-- - Began in 1926, can
you believe that, almost a hundred years old. - Yes, in India, in the
region known as Mewat, by a certain scholar
Maulana Muhammad Ilyas. And yes, it's grown,
as you have mentioned, it's now in something
like 150 countries and with many followers
numbering in the millions. So are there some drawbacks? Yes. One drawback is that it does
not involve women that much. There is a way for
women to also go out in the missions, but, you know, they stress
the seclusion of women to such an extent that
the women's movement will not be seen. And, you know, with all
of the restrictions, so one wonders to what extent
the women do actually benefit from going out in
these missions. So it's mostly a
male-centered mission. A lot of things are
done by the males and the women are
usually left at home, caring for the family. And sometimes they're
left to, with, you know, with insufficient attention,
to all of their needs, and the needs of the family and
the children to take care of and so on, because the men
are psyched to the idea that, yeah, I've gotta
go out and do this. And then they go out
and, not enough hindsight of how the home situation
will be left behind them. Now, because of their intense
devotion to, you know, the way, like the stories
which are being read. Remember I talked
about those two hours of learning session each day. Well, one of the books
that is being read and was read for a long time is, includes a portion called
stories of the Sahaba. And these are stories
of companions of the
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, who lived through very
difficult situations where they were being
attacked by others who wanted to decimate
the Muslim population. They had to arise in
defense in battles. And some of them, their stories of their
bravery and heroism and valor in battle and
all of that are recounted, and their self-sacrifice and
how many wounds they bore, and how they kept fighting
despite the wound. And somebody had
one arm cut off, but he transferred the
flag to the other hand, holding it up. Then the other hand got cut off, but he held the flag, you know, even with the stubs
of his arms remaining, and, you know, holding
it with his teeth. So, you know, somebody's
struck with arrow after arrow but he kept on
fighting and so on. So all of this may have
produced, you know, some Muslims with a mind
that says, you know what, I can go out and, you know,
sacrifice my body and, you know, go out in a sort of a
battle nowadays, like, why aren't we doing that? So the movement itself
doesn't do that. And it's not encouraging that. And it's against anyone
enacting violence against anyone else. The movement itself is
thoroughly apolitical, but some of the adherents, just as I have emerged from it and I'm doing
something different, some people may emerge from it and do something very different. And in this way, it is noted that
some of the persons who have been implicated in
modern times with, you know, connections to
terrorism and so on, have been traced back
to this movement. Again, the movement
doesn't encourage that, but I would encourage
the leaders to look back at some of the stories
that are being read and ask if it's necessary,
really, to have those because you can have
the learning session without that part
particular book necessarily. And in fact, the book
itself has a lot... A lot of these stories
are, you know, hagiography, as you know, people write great
stories about their saints, and the stories are
not necessarily true. Not only that, but the book
contains many narratives of other subjects as well, which are not
necessarily authentic. So it's important for them to
produce some authentic books which will be read and which will be free of
this negative element in it. And indeed, recently, they
have produced a book called (speaks Arabic),
something of this nature. So selected hadiths to be read. And that has a greater
degree of authenticity than the previous
book that I mentioned, but how widely it is
being used nowadays, I have not investigated. And the book too, I have not started...
studied in great detail, because by the time
this book was introduced I was out of the movement. I actually bought a copy
of the book, but then I... before I could study it, I gave it away as a
gift to somebody who was still in the movement. - All right. We'll
leave it at that. Dr. Shabir, I can see that
you have so much to talk about on the Tablighi Jamaat. It really fires you up. That's really interesting, but we'll pick it
up another time. - Sure. Our videos
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