>>ANNOUNCER: TODAY ON THE JOHN ANKERBERG SHOW: WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU ONE MINUTE AFTER YOU DIE? STATISTICS TELL US: ONE HUNDRED AND SIX PEOPLE DIE EVERY MINUTE. FIFTY-FIVE THOUSAND PEOPLE DIE EVERY DAY. FOUR-AND-A HALF MILLION PEOPLE DIE EVERY MONTH. AND FIFTY-SIX MILLION PEOPLE DIE EACH YEAR. IF YOU LIVE FOR SEVENTY YEARS, OVER YOUR LIFETIME, CLOSE TO FOUR BILLION PEOPLE WILL HAVE DIED ON EARTH. AND EVENTUALLY DEATH WILL COME TO YOU AND TO ME. NONE OF US WILL ESCAPE IT. WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY EACH OF US WILL EXPERIENCE ONE MINUTE AFTER WE DIE. MY GUEST TODAY IS THEOLOGIAN AND BEST-SELLING AUTHOR, DR. ERWIN LUTZER, SENIOR MINISTER OF MOODY CHURCH IN CHICAGO, ILLINOIS, WHO HAS WRITTEN THE BOOK, "ONE MINUTE AFTER YOU DIE." WE INVITE YOU TO JOIN US FOR THIS SPECIAL EDITION OF THE JOHN ANKERBERG SHOW. >>JOHN ANKERBERG: WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM. I'M JOHN ANKERBERG. THANKS FOR JOINING ME TODAY. WE HAVE ONE OF THESE RARE TOPICS THAT APPLIES TO EVERY ONE OF YOU THAT IS WATCHING. WHETHER YOU'RE HERE IN AMERICA OR CANADA OR RUSSIA OR EUROPE OR INDIA OR AFRICA OR SOUTH AMERICA, THIS TOPIC APPLIES TO EVERYBODY THAT IS WATCHING. WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT DEATH AND WHAT YOU WILL EXPERIENCE ONE MINUTE AFTER YOU DIE. AND MY GUEST TODAY IS MY GOOD FRIEND, DR. ERWIN LUTZER. HE IS THE PASTOR OF THE HISTORIC MOODY CHURCH IN CHICAGO, ILLINOIS. AND, ERWIN, WHY IS THIS SO IMPORTANT TO EVERYBODY THAT'S LISTENING? >>DR. ERWIN LUTZER: WELL, JOHN, FIRST OF ALL I WANT TO SAY WHAT A DELIGHT IT IS TO BE HERE TO DISCUSS THIS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TOPIC. AND WE WELCOME ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LISTENING. BUT, YOU KNOW, THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT GOD ACTUALLY HAS PUT ETERNITY IN OUR HEARTS. I THINK ATHEISTS EVEN WHEN THEY COME TO DIE ARE WELL AWARE THAT THERE IS SOMETHING ON THE OTHER SIDE. AND THE BIBLE SAYS, "IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MAN ONCE TO DIE, AND AFTER THAT THE JUDGMENT." AND TRY AS WE MIGHT TO PUT DEATH OUT OF OUR MINDS, WHEN IT'S OUR TIME TO DIE I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT OUR MINDS WILL BE VERY FOCUSED ON WHAT LIES ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CURTAIN. >>ANKERBERG: YES. YOU WERE ASKED AS A PASTOR TO DO A FUNERAL, AND IT WAS A VERY KIND OF STRANGE CIRCUMSTANCE. TELL US ABOUT THAT. >>LUTZER: YES. WHAT HAPPENED IS, I RECEIVED A CALL FROM A FUNERAL HOME, AND THEY ASKED ME TO COME OVER AND TO SPEAK BRIEFLY. NOW, WHEN I GOT THERE THE SON WHOSE FATHER HAD DIED TOOK ME ASIDE AND SAID, "WE WANT YOU TO BE VERY BRIEF." AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHAT HE SAID IS, "NOTHING THAT YOU SAY WILL BE TOO SHORT." HE SAID, "WE DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD. MY FATHER DIDN'T BELIEVE IN GOD. WE ARE ATHEISTS. AND THE ONLY REASON YOU'RE HERE IS BECAUSE A RELATIVE THOUGHT THAT A MINISTER SHOULD BE PRESENT." SO I SAID, "I'M GOING TO MAKE AN AGREEMENT WITH YOU. I'M NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT YOUR FATHER." BUT I SAID, "IN THE FEW MOMENTS THAT I AM GOING TO SPEAK, I'M GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT JESUS CHRIST AND ETERNITY." WELL, WHAT COULD HE DO? HE HAD TO ALLOW ME TO DO THAT. BUT YOU KNOW, JOHN, JUST THINK OF WHAT THAT MAN WAS EXPERIENCING AFTER HIS DEATH. >>ANKERBERG: YES, WHILE YOU WERE PARKING THE CAR, WHILE YOU WERE MAKING THE ARRANGEMENTS, WHILE YOU WERE TALKING WITH THE FAMILY, THE MAN THAT WAS IN THE CASKET, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, WAS WHAT? >>LUTZER: YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT THIS IN MUCH MORE DETAIL, BUT IN THE SIXTEENTH CHAPTER OF LUKE, JESUS TELLS A STORY. AND I DON'T BELIEVE THAT IT WAS A PARABLE. I THINK IT'S AN ACTUAL STORY. HE TELLS THE STORY OF A RICH MAN WHO DIED AND ALSO A POOR MAN WHO DIED. AND THE POINT THAT JESUS WAS MAKING IS NOT THAT RICHES LEAD YOU TO HELL; BUT IT IS TRUE THAT THE RICH MAN ENDED UP IN WHAT IS CALLED HADES. AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DISCUSS THAT ON THIS SHOW. AND IT SAYS ALSO THAT THE POOR MAN, WHOSE NAME WAS LAZARUS, WAS IN ABRAHAM'S BOSOM. THE QUESTION IS: WHAT WAS THE RICH MAN EXPERIENCING? WELL, AS THE BIBLE CLEARLY INDICATES, HE WAS IN A STATE OF PAIN, OF TORMENT, AND HE WAS GOING THROUGH ALL OF THESE EXPERIENCES. AND I BELIEVE THAT, THAT RICH MAN IN CHICAGO, WHILE I SPOKE BRIEFLY AND THEN THERE WAS A RATHER LONG EULOGY ABOUT HIM AND ALL OF HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS, HE WAS ALSO IN HADES, IN THAT PLACE THAT IS DESCRIBED AS ONE OF ABANDONMENT AND TORMENT. AND RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING WE HAVE TO MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR: THAT THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT YOU SEE WHEN SOMEONE DIES AND YOU SEE THEIR LIFELESS BODY, AND WHAT THEY ARE EXPERIENCING. BECAUSE AFTER THEY'VE DIED, WHAT THEY FIND IS THEY ARE IN AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT WORLD, A DIFFERENT REALM. AND DEATH IS NOT A POSITIVE EXPERIENCE FOR EVERYONE. >>ANKERBERG: YES, AND YOU SAY THAT NOT EVERYBODY'S GOING TO HAVE THE SAME KIND OF EXPERIENCE. YOU HAVE THOSE WHO KNOW THE LORD HAVE ONE KIND OF EXPERIENCE AND THOSE THAT DO NOT KNOW THE LORD HAVE ANOTHER. EXPLAIN THAT. >>LUTZER: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY THAT THOSE WHO KNOW JESUS CHRIST AS SAVIOR, THEY WILL BE IN HIS PRESENCE. THEY WILL BE BLESSED. WE CAN CALL THAT PARADISE; WE CAN CALL THAT HEAVEN; AND THEY HAVE THAT ASSURANCE. AND ON THESE PROGRAMS WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT THAT ASSURANCE THAT THEY HAVE. BECAUSE, AFTER ALL, JESUS IS THE ONLY SAVIOR. NOW, WE HAVE MANY PROPHETS AND GURUS WHO TELL US HOW TO LIVE, BUT NOBODY EXCEPT JESUS CAN ACTUALLY WIPE AWAY OUR SIN AND PREPARE US FOR HEAVEN. ON THE OTHER SIDE, OF COURSE, ARE THOSE WHO ARE GOING TO BE IN TORMENT. AND EVEN HADES THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT IS NOT YET HELL. SO IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND-AND THIS IS CRITICAL-THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND. THERE IS NO PLACE WHERE YOU SAY, "WELL, I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR HEAVEN, BUT I'M TOO GOOD FOR HELL, SO THERE'S A MIDDLE PLACE." NO, THERE ISN'T. IT IS ONLY HEAVEN OR HADES, WHICH LATER ON IS THROWN INTO HELL, A VERY STARK CONTRAST. >>ANKERBERG: YES, I LOVED WHAT YOU SAID AT THE BEGINNING HERE, THAT PEOPLE, GOD HAS PUT A DESIRE IN THEIR HEARTS OF ETERNITY, AND THEY HAVE A DESIRE TO KNOW WHAT'S BEYOND DEATH, TO PEEK BEHIND THE CURTAIN OF DEATH. AND THERE ARE A COUPLE OF AREAS THAT OUR SOCIETY AND NATIONS AROUND THE WORLD, PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT NATIONS AROUND THE WORLD, HAVE TRIED TO USE TO GET INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AFTER DEATH. ONE OF THOSE HAS BEEN CHANNELING TO TRY TO GET A GLIMPSE OF WHAT LIES BEYOND THE GRAVE. WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT CHANNELING? >>LUTZER: YOU KNOW, CHANNELING IS WHEN YOU GO TO A MEDIUM WHO SUPPOSEDLY CONNECTS YOU WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED. AND SOMETIMES THERE HAVE EVEN BEEN SHOWS ON TELEVISION WHERE YOU GO TO THIS PERSON AND HE SAYS, "I CAN CONTACT YOUR MOTHER, YOUR FATHER, AND WE'LL TALK." THE BIBLE FORBIDS ALL OF THAT. HERE IN THE UNITED STATES THERE WAS A BISHOP WHO DID NOT BELIEVE THE BIBLE, AND HE DECIDED TO TRY TO CONTACT HIS SON WHO HAD COMMITTED SUICIDE. SO THE BISHOP, PIKE WAS HIS NAME, HE WENT TO A MEDIUM, AND THE MEDIUM PURPORTEDLY CONNECTED HIM WITH HIS BOY. AND HE ASKED HIS SON, AMONG OTHER THINGS, "DO YOU HEAR ABOUT JESUS ON THE OTHER SIDE?" AND THE SON SAID, "NO, WE DON'T HEAR A LOT ABOUT JESUS ON THE OTHER SIDE." JOHN, FROM MY HEART TO YOURS AND TO THE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE LISTENING, IF, WHEN YOU DIE, YOU'RE IN A PLACE WHERE YOU DON'T HEAR MUCH ABOUT JESUS, YOU'RE IN DEEP TROUBLE. THE BIBLE FORBIDS CHANNELING, AND I'LL TELL YOU WHY. IT SPEAKS ABOUT FAMILIAR SPIRITS; THAT IS, THERE ARE DEMONS WHO KNOW ALL ABOUT US. AND IF THAT CHANNELER, THAT MEDIUM, IS ABLE TO CONNECT WITH ONE OF THOSE DEMONS, THE DEMONS SPEAK AND THEY SUPPLY INFORMATION. BE ASSURED THAT NO ONE HAS EVER TALKED TO THE DEAD AND FOUND OUT WHAT LIES ON THE OTHER SIDE. IN FACT, IN THE SCRIPTURE WE READ IN ISAIAH, "AND WHEN THEY SAY TO YOU, 'CONSULT THE MEDIUMS AND THE SPIRITISTS WHO WHISPER AND MUTTER. SHOULD NOT A PEOPLE CONSULT THEIR GOD? SHOULD THEY CONSULT THE DEAD ON BEHALF OF THE LIVING?' " AND THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS NO. THAT IS AN UNRELIABLE WAY TO TRY TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENS ON THE OTHER SIDE. >>ANKERBERG: AND MANY OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TRIED DIFFERENT WAYS, SUCH AS REINCARNATION, AND NOW WE'VE HAD THIS PHENOMENON OF A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVING NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES. YOU'VE GOT MANY NEW AGE WRITERS AND PHILOSOPHERS, PEOPLE IN HOLLYWOOD EVEN MAKING MOVIES ABOUT THESE NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES. THERE ARE PSYCHOLOGISTS WHO HAVE BEEN STUDYING THIS. WHAT DOES THE BIBLE HAVE TO SAY ABOUT REINCARNATION AND THEN NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES? >>LUTZER: WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT REINCARNATION. I HAVE TO TELL YOU ABOUT A STORY, JOHN, THAT I HAD. I WAS SITTING ON A, ON AN AIRPLANE AND NEXT TO ME WAS A WOMAN BY THE NAME OF SHIRLEY. AND WHEN SHE FOUND OUT I WAS A PASTOR SHE SAID, "YOU'RE SO FORTUNATE; BECAUSE I'D LIKE TO BE ABLE TO PREACH TO PEOPLE AND TELL THEM ABOUT MY EXPERIENCES AND EVEN BRING HEALING TO THEM. AND FURTHERMORE," SHE SAID, "I CAN PROVE REINCARNATION." I SAID, "TELL ME MORE." SHE SAID, "EVEN WHEN I WAS A CHILD I HAD VISIONS AND DREAMS ABOUT A HOME IN VERMONT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, THAT I'D NEVER BEEN TO. AND AS AN ADULT I VISITED THE HOME AND I REALIZED IT WAS EXACTLY AS THOSE VISIONS AND DREAMS INDICATED." NOW, I'M SITTING RIGHT NEXT TO HER, SO I SMILED AND I SAID TO HER, "SHIRLEY, I WANT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING. THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A TRANSMIGRATION OF SOULS. THERE'S NO EVIDENCE IN THE BIBLE FOR REINCARNATION. BUT," I SAID, "THERE IS EVIDENCE OF THE TRANSMIGRATION OF DEMONS." I SAID, "THE INFORMATION THAT YOU ARE GETTING IS FROM A DEMONIC SPIRIT, AN EVIL SPIRIT WHO OBVIOUSLY KNOWS ABOUT THIS HOUSE IN VERMONT AND IS COMMUNICATING THIS INFORMATION TO YOU." AND SHE SAID, "OH NO!" SHE SAID, "I DO CONNECT WITH SPIRITS, BUT I RECEIVE NO INFORMATION FROM EVIL SPIRITS." I SAID, "TELL ME, HOW DO YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE?" AND, JOHN, SHE SAID, "I RECEIVE ONLY THOSE SPIRITS THAT COME TO ME CLOTHED IN LIGHT." WELL, YOU PROBABLY ALREADY KNOW THE VERSE OF SCRIPTURE THAT I SHARED WITH HER, SECOND CORINTHIANS 11, WHERE THE APOSTLE PAUL SAYS THAT "SATAN HIMSELF IS TRANSFORMED INTO AN ANGEL OF LIGHT." AND I NEED TO SAY IT WITH EMPHASIS, THAT MUCH THAT WE HEAR TODAY ABOUT ENLIGHTENMENT IS ACTUALLY FROM THE DEMONIC WORLD. REINCARNATION IS NOT A WAY TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENS ON THE OTHER SIDE. NOW, YOU ALSO MENTIONED NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES. >>ANKERBERG: LET'S HOLD ON TO THAT ONE BECAUSE WE NEED TO TAKE A BREAK. AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY ON THAT, NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES, AND SO I WANT A FULL ANSWER ON THAT ONE. SO, FOLKS, STICK WITH US. WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK. >>ANNOUNCER: IF YOU WOULD LIKE ALL 4 TELEVISION PROGRAMS IN OUR NEW SERIES: "WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU ONE MINUTE AFTER YOU DIE?" THEY ARE AVAILABLE ON DVD FOR A GIFT OF $49 U.S. IF YOU LIVE IN IN AMERICA OR CANADA YOU MAY ORDER THIS SERIES BY CALLING US AT 1-800-805-3030. IF YOU LIVE IN OTHER COUNTRIES YOU MAY ORDER THESE PROGRAMS AT OUR WEBSITE AT JASHOW.ORG. >>ANKERBERG: ALRIGHT, WE'RE BACK, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A FASCINATING TOPIC THAT APPLIES TO EVERYBODY THAT'S WATCHING. IT APPLIES TO ME, AND IT APPLIES DR. LUTZER WHO'S OUR GUEST TODAY, THE PASTOR OF THE HISTORIC MOODY CHURCH IN CHICAGO, ILLINOIS. THE TOPIC IS THIS; WE ALL KNOW WE'RE GOING TO DIE SOMEDAY. WHEN YOU DO DIE, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU ONE MINUTE AFTER YOU DIE? AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE HAVE USED, OR ONE OF THE MEANS PEOPLE HAVE USED TO TRY TO GATHER INFORMATION ABOUT PEEKING BEHIND THE CURTAIN OF DEATH, SEEING WHAT'S ON THE OTHER SIDE, IS THIS THING OF NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES. EXPLAIN WHAT THEY ARE, AND THEN GIVE SOME ILLUSTRATIONS, AND THEN, WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY? >>LUTZER: THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TOPIC, BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS LOTS OF DECEPTION GOING ON WHEN IT COMES TO NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES. A NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCE IS WHERE SOMEBODY IS ABOUT TO DIE, AND THEY MAY ACTUALLY DIE, AT LEAST THEORETICALLY, AND THEN THEY COME BACK TO LIFE. SO THEN THEY CAN TELL, SUPPOSEDLY, WHAT LIES ON THE OTHER SIDE. BUT THE PROBLEM IS, DO THEY HAVE ACCURATE INFORMATION? FOR EXAMPLE THERE'S A WOMAN BY THE NAME OF BETTY EADIE THAT WROTE A BOOK ENTITLED "EMBRACED BY THE LIGHT." SHE APPARENTLY HAD A NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCE, CAME BACK AND SAID THAT SHE MET JESUS, AND THERE IS NO JUDGMENT AND EVERYONE CAN GO INTO THE OTHER SIDE WITHOUT ANY REGRETS. I REMEMBER A WOMAN WHO SAID THE VERY SAME THING TO ME. SHE SAID, "I ALMOST DIED. I DIED. I CAME BACK TO LIFE. JESUS, DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME WHERE I WAS DEAD, TOOK ME BY THE HAND AND SAID, 'HERE'S A BUDDHIST PATH; HERE'S AN ISLAMIC PATH; HERE'S A HINDU PATH; HERE'S A CHRISTIAN PATH. BUT, JUST LIKE SPOKES IN A WHEEL, THEY ALL LEAD TO THE HUB CALLED HEAVEN." WELL, OF COURSE, I TRIED TO HELP HER TO SEE THAT SHE WAS BEING DECEIVED, BECAUSE WE ALREADY MENTIONED IN THIS PROGRAM HOW SATAN TRANSFORMS HIMSELF TO AN ANGEL OF LIGHT, AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT THE DEVIL WOULD WANT MORE THAN TO MAKE US THINK THAT DEATH IS THE SAME EXPERIENCE FOR EVERYONE, A POSITIVE EXPERIENCE. WELL, IT IS NOT. BECAUSE JESUS SAID THESE WORDS, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME." IN OTHER WORDS, YOU CAN'T GET TO THE FATHER WITHOUT JESUS CHRIST, AND THERE ARE POWERFUL REASONS WHY THAT IS THE CASE. >>ANKERBERG: WE'VE ALSO, BOTH OF US HAVE KNOWN A HEART DOCTOR. I'VE HAD HIM ON THE PROGRAM, DR. MAURICE RAWLINGS, WHO WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN AND WAS WORKING ON PATIENTS WHO HAD THESE NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES WHILE THEY WERE ON THE TREADMILL. THEY WOULD DIE AND HE WOULD RESUSCITATE THEM. AND ONE GUY, WHILE HE WAS DYING, SAID, "DOCTOR, DOCTOR, YOU'VE GOT TO SAVE ME, I'M IN HELL." HE SAYS, YOU KNOW, "KEEP YOUR HELL TO YOURSELF. I'M TRYING TO SAVE YOUR LIFE." AND HE CAME BACK EVERY TIME, AND HE, WHEN HE WOULD BE RESUSCITATED, SAID, "DOCTOR YOU'VE GOT TO PRAY FOR ME." SO HE MADE UP A PRAYER, AND HE SAID, "OKAY, DEAR JESUS, I'M A SINNER, YOU KNOW, I'M PUTTING ALL MY TRUST IN YOU. FORGIVE ME. HELP ME TO LIVE. IF YOU DO, I'M ON THE HOOK TO YOU." AND THE GUY STILL HAD THESE NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES, BUT NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN HE HAD PEACE. AND WE HAD AN AUDIENCE AT THAT TIME, AND THE GUY THAT, THAT HAD HAPPENED TO WAS SITTING IN THE AUDIENCE. HE CATALOGED OVER 300 HELL EXPERIENCES AT THAT TIME AND WROTE THEM INTO A BOOK. SO WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES, IF THEY'RE GOING TO TAKE A COUNT OF ALL OF THE INFORMATION THAT'S AVAILABLE, WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THESE PEOPLE THAT END UP IN HELL? >>LUTZER: WELL, EXACTLY. AND, JOHN, YOU'VE JUST GIVEN SOME POWERFUL INFORMATION. THE FACT IS THAT THERE CAN BE MUCH DECEPTION HERE, BECAUSE NOT EVERYBODY HAS THAT POSITIVE EXPERIENCE OF LIGHT. THERE INDEED MAY BE TIMES WHEN PEOPLE ARE IN TORMENT. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT. YOU KNOW, RECENTLY I WAS SPEAKING AT AN EVENT, AND A MAN CAME TO ME AND SAID THAT HIS MOTHER WAS NOT A BELIEVER. IN FACT, SHE WAS VERY MUCH OPPOSED TO THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. AND AS SHE WAS DYING SHE SAID, "GOD, HELP ME! I AM BURNING IN FLAMES." SO IF YOU WANT TO USE NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES, WE HAVE TO AT LEAST HAVE SOME BALANCE. BUT MY CONTENTION IS THIS: RATHER THAN DISCUSSING THE EXPERIENCE THAT PEOPLE HAD NEAR DEATH, IT'S MUCH BETTER IF WE TAKE AS AN AUTHORITY SOMEBODY WHO ACTUALLY WAS DEAD, AND WAS PUT IN THE GRAVE, AND DID RISE FROM THE GRAVE, AND HE'S THE ONE WHO CAN SPEAK WITH AUTHORITY. I LOVE THE WORDS OF SCRIPTURE. JESUS SAID IN REVELATION 1:18, "I AM HE THAT LIVETH AND WAS DEAD AND AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE, AND I HAVE THE KEYS OF DEATH AND OF HADES." JOHN, AT THE END OF THE DAY WHAT WE MUST ALWAYS RECOGNIZE IS THAT OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST DETERMINES OUR DESTINY. HE'S THE ONE WHO HAS THE KEY OF DEATH AND OF HADES. AND HE'S THE ONE THAT SUPERVISES; HE'S THE ONE WHO OPENS DOORS AND CLOSES DOORS. SO OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT. >>ANKERBERG: NOW, LET'S USE THE BIBLE AS AN AUTHORITY AND LET'S USE THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW TESTAMENT. TALK ABOUT WHAT THE WORD "SHEOL" MEANS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. >>LUTZER: THE WORD "SHEOL" OCCURS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT SIXTY-FIVE TIMES. THIRTY-ONE TIMES IT IS TRANSLATED "HELL"; THE OTHER THIRTY-ONE TIMES IT IS TRANSLATED "THE GRAVE"; AND THREE TIMES "THE PIT". NOW, BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT IT IS TRANSLATED DIFFERENTLY, THERE COULD BE SOME CONFUSION. BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THE TEXTS, YOU RECOGNIZE THAT HADES ACTUALLY IS THE SHADOWY WORLD, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY, WHERE DEPARTED SPIRITS GO. NOW, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT HADES IS NOTHING MORE THAN THE GRAVE. BUT THERE IS IN HEBREW A WORD FOR GRAVE. WHAT IT MEANS IS MORE THAN THE GRAVE, BECAUSE IT IS A PLACE THAT WELCOMES PEOPLE, ACCORDING TO THE OLD TESTAMENT; AND IT IS THERE WHERE WE FIND THAT PEOPLE COME AND THEY ARE FULLY CONSCIOUS. NOW, THE OTHER THING THAT'S IMPORTANT IS THAT IT MUST HAVE TWO COMPARTMENTS, BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND YOU HAVE JACOB WHO GOES TO SHEOL. YOU HAVE THE RIGHTEOUS; YOU HAVE THE UNRIGHTEOUS; THEY ALL GO TO SHEOL. AND I THINK THAT THE RABBIS IN ANCIENT TIMES WERE CORRECT WHEN THEY SAID THAT SHEOL HAS TWO COMPARTMENTS. AND WHEN YOU GET TO THE NEW TESTAMENT I BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST CONFIRMS THAT. >>ANKERBERG: YEAH, LET ME READ THE STORY THAT JESUS GAVE TO US ABOUT SHEOL, THIS IS A REAL STORY. IN LUKE 16 IT'S TALKING ABOUT THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS. JESUS SAYS, "NOW THE POOR MAN [THAT'S LAZARUS] DIED AND WAS CARRIED AWAY BY THE ANGELS TO ABRAHAM'S BOSOM." EXPLAIN THAT. "AND THE RICH MAN ALSO DIED AND WAS BURIED. AND THE RICH MAN IN HADES, HE LIFTED UP HIS EYES, BEING IN TORMENT, AND SAW ABRAHAM FAR AWAY AND LAZARUS IN HIS BOSOM. AND HE CRIED OUT AND SAID, 'FATHER ABRAHAM, HAVE MERCY ON ME AND SEND LAZARUS SO THAT HE MAY DIP THE TIP OF HIS FINGER IN WATER AND COOL OFF MY TONGUE; FOR I AM IN AGONY IN THIS FLAME.'" NOW, THIS IS JESUS TALKING. "BUT ABRAHAM SAID, 'CHILD, REMEMBER THAT DURING YOUR LIFE YOU RECEIVED YOUR GOOD THINGS AND LIKEWISE LAZARUS, BAD THINGS. BUT NOW HE IS BEING COMFORTED HERE AND YOU ARE IN AGONY.'" AND THEN HE SAID, "'BESIDES ALL THIS, BETWEEN US AND YOU THERE IS A GREAT CHASM FIXED SO THAT THOSE WHO WISH TO COME OVER FROM HERE TO YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE, AND THAT NONE MAY CROSS OVER FROM THERE TO US.' AND HE SAID, 'THEN I BEG YOU, FATHER, THAT YOU SEND HIM TO MY FATHER'S HOUSE, FOR I HAVE FIVE BROTHERS, IN ORDER THAT HE MAY WARN THEM SO THAT THEY WILL NOT ALSO COME TO THIS PLACE OF TORMENT.' BUT ABRAHAM SAID, 'THEY HAVE MOSES AND THE PROPHETS, LET THEM HEAR THEM.' BUT HE SAID, 'NO, FATHER ABRAHAM! BUT IF SOMEONE GOES TO THEM FROM THE DEAD, THEN THEY WILL REPENT.' BUT HE SAID TO THEM, 'IF THEY DO NOT LISTEN TO MOSES AND THE PROPHETS THEY WILL NOT BE PERSUADED EVEN IF SOMEONE RISES FROM THE DEAD.'" ERWIN, EXPLAIN WHAT JESUS IS TEACHING HERE IN THIS STORY. >>LUTZER: JOHN, THIS IS A VERY SOBERING STORY, AND EVERYONE SHOULD LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY. AND I'M SO GLAD THAT YOU READ IT. BUT NOTICE THIS: FIRST OF ALL, THE MAN IS FULLY CONSCIOUS. I MEAN, HE CAN THINK; HE CAN FEEL; HE CAN SPEAK. ALL OF HIS SENSES ARE WORKING. AND HE'S IN TORMENT AND HE WANTS SOME WATER. AND THE MOST SOBERING THOUGHT THAT COULD EVER CROSS OUR MINDS TODAY IS THAT NOW, 2000 YEARS LATER, HE STILL DOES NOT HAVE HIS DRINK OF WATER. HADES IS GOING TO BE A PLACE OF TORMENT AS HE MENTIONED. THE OTHER THING ABOUT IT IS, YOU'LL NOTICE THAT HIS ETERNITY WAS FIXED. HE ASKED THE QUESTION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT HE COULDN'T PASS THIS GULF AND WHETHER OR NOT LAZARUS WOULD BE ABLE TO BRING HIM SOME WATER. AND ABRAHAM CLARIFIED, "NO, BETWEEN US THERE'S A GULF FIXED AND YOU CAN'T COME TO US AND WE CAN'T COME TO YOU." DO YOU REMEMBER DANTE WHEN HE WROTE HIS BOOK ABOUT HELL? ACROSS THE DOOR OF HELL HE SAID IS WRITTEN "ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE." NOW, ANOTHER THING, VERY QUICKLY; I THINK THAT, THAT MAN IN HADES KNEW THAT HIS SENTENCE WAS JUST. YOU'LL NOTICE THAT HE DOESN'T COMPLAIN AND SAY THAT "IT'S UNFAIR THAT I'M HERE." BUT, MOST IMPORTANTLY, HE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE SHOULD HAVE DONE TO AVOID THIS PLACE. HE SAID, "GO BACK AND TELL MY BROTHERS THAT THEY MIGHT REPENT SO THAT THEY WILL NOT COME TO THIS SAME PLACE OF TORMENT." SO THERE HE IS. AND MORE SOBERING, AND I'M SURE THAT WE'LL HAVE TO DISCUSS THIS ON ANOTHER SHOW, IS THE FACT THAT HADES AT THE END OF TIME IS THROWN INTO HELL. SO HADES IS NOT YET THE FINAL HELL, BUT STILL IS A PLACE OF TORMENT. >>ANKERBERG: PEOPLE THAT ARE LISTENING SAY, "I DON'T WANT TO GO THERE. I DON'T WANT TO GO TO HELL WHEN HADES IS THROWN INTO HELL. I DON'T WANT TO BE IN TORMENT. HOW DO I KNOW FOR SURE THAT GOD WILL TAKE ME TO HEAVEN?" >>LUTZER: WELL, THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT WHEN JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS, HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION WAS A SACRIFICE FOR US. AND IF WE PUT OUR TRUST IN JESUS, HE'S THE SAVIOR WHO WIPES AWAY OUR SIN, DECLARES US TO BE RIGHTEOUS, AND BRINGS US TO THE FATHER. SO IF GOD IS WORKING IN YOUR HEART TODAY, WOULD YOU TRUST CHRIST RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE AND TELL HIM THAT YOU WANT HIM TO BE YOUR SAVIOR, YOUR SUBSTITUTE? HE GIVES US THE AUTHORITY TO BECOME HIS CHILDREN. >>ANKERBERG: TREMENDOUS WORD. FOLKS, WE'RE JUST GETTING STARTED. NEXT WEEK WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE IMPORTANT TOPIC IN CONNECTION WITH THIS OF HOW TO OVERCOME THE FEAR OF DEATH. SOME OF YOU, YOU FEAR DEATH EVERY DAY. HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT? HOW DOES GOD GIVE US ENCOURAGEMENT ABOUT THAT? THAT'S OUR TOPIC NEXT WEEK, SO I HOPE THAT YOU'LL JOIN US. >>ANNOUNCER: STAY TUNED FOR SCENES FROM NEXT WEEK'S PROGRAM. >>ANNOUNCER: IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION IN OUR NEW SERIES, "WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU ONE MINUTE AFTER YOU DIE?" ALL 4 TELEVISION PROGRAMS ARE AVAILABLE ON DVD FOR A GIFT OF $49. WHAT INFORMATION HAS GOD GIVEN TO US SO THAT WE CAN OVERCOME OUR FEAR OF DEATH? WHAT WILL HAPPEN THE MOMENT YOU MAKE THE TRANSITION FROM LIFE, TO DEATH, TO HEAVEN? AND WHAT ABOUT THE DEATH OF INFANTS? WHEN WE GET TO HEAVEN WILL MY CHILD KNOW ME? WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THEM NOW? ALL 4 TELEVISION PROGRAMS IN THIS SERIES ARE AVAILABLE ON DVD FOR A GIFT OF $49. THEN WE TAPED A SECOND SERIES CALLED, "WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU ONE MINUTE AFTER YOU DIE?" PART 2, WHERE WE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS: FOR THOSE WHO ARE CHRISTIANS, WHAT WILL HEAVEN BE LIKE YOU'RE FIRST HOUR IN GLORY? FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT BELIEVED IN CHRIST, THE DESCENT INTO GLOOM: WHAT WILL HELL BE LIKE? IS GOD REALLY IN CONTROL OF HOW AND WHEN YOU DIE? WHAT ABOUT CHRISTIANS WHO COMMIT SUICIDE? WILL THEY BE IN HEAVEN? AND HOW CAN YOU HAVE COMPLETE ASSURANCE YOU ARE GOING TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE? ALL 4 TELEVISION PROGRAMS IN THIS SERIES, ARE AVAILABLE ON DVD FOR A GIFT OF $49. THEN WE ARE MAKING AVAILABLE TWO OTHER SERIES WITH DR. LUTZER. FIRST, "WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?" IN WHICH HE DOCUMENTS 5 DISTURBING CULTURAL TRENDS THAT MAY BE IRREVERSIBLE UNLESS GOD STEPS IN; AND SECOND, "FAITH AT THE BREAKING POINT" - 5 UNSHAKEABLE BIBLICAL TRUTHS CHRISTIANS CAN HANG ON TO IN A WORLD OF CHAOS AND DECLINE. EACH OF THESE SERIES IS AVAILABLE FOR $39. AND FINALLY, IF YOU WISH TO ORDER ALL 4 OF THESE SERIES, CONTAINING 14 HALF HOUR TELEVISION PROGRAMS, THEY ARE AVAILABLE TOGETHER IN A SPECIAL PACKAGE FOR ONLY $100 U.S. THOSE OF YOU LIVING IN AMERICA OR CANADA, YOU MAY ORDER THIS PROGRAMS BY CALLING US AT 1-800-805-3030. THAT'S 1-800-805-3030. IF YOU LIVE IN OTHER COUNTRIES, YOU MAY ORDER THESE PROGRAMS AT OUR WEBSITE AT JASHOW.ORG. NEXT WEEK ON THE JOHN ANKERBERG SHOW: >>DR. ERWIN LUTZER: I REALLY DO BELIEVE THAT WE GO FROM THIS LIFE TO THE NEXT LIFE WITHOUT A BREAK IN CONSCIOUSNESS. >>ANNOUNCER: AND TO LEARN HOW TO START A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST GO TO OUR WEBSITE AT JASHOW.ORG AND CLICK ON: "PRAY TO ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOR."
