Washington Week with The Atlantic full episode, June 7, 2024

every president confronts a dilemma in the Middle East best articulated by alpacino and Godfather 3 just what I thought I was out they pull me back in President Biden has had the same bad luck as so many of his predecessors tonight a close look at the never-ending crisis with New York Times columnist Tom fredman next this is Washington Week with the Atlantic corporate f funding provided by Consumer Cellular additional funding is provided by K and Patricia Yuan through the Yuan Foundation committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities Sandra and Carl delay Magnuson Rose hsel and Andy shres Robert and Susan rosenbom The Corporation for Public Broadcasting and by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you thank you once again from Washington editor-in chief of the Atlantic and moderator Jeffrey Goldberg good evening and welcome to a special edition of Washington Week President Biden is abroad this week commemorating the 80th anniversary of D-Day which marked the beginning of the end of Nazism but today democracy is on the back foot around the world and President Biden faces particularly difficult challenges from China Russia and Iran tonight I'll talk about the the difficulties of the Middle East and the state of play in the war between Israel and Iran with the legendary Tom fredman who began covering the Middle East more than 40 years ago over his career Tom has collected three Pulitzer prizes for his work and he joins me tonight for a one-on-one conversation Tom thank you for joining us this is uh yeah I'm glad to glad to have you here um that by the way I just want to promise our viewers that's the last time I'll be quoting Godfather 3 on this show Godfather one and two are open for further mining uh but Tom let's let's talk about uh Joe Biden and his management of the world before we do I want to watch a couple of seconds of Biden talking at the dday ceremonies democracy begins with each of us begins when one person decides there something more important in themselves that's what every Soldier every Marine who stormed this beaches decided they stood against iter's aggression does anyone doubt does anyone doubt that they would want America to stand up against Putin's aggression here in Europe today Tom how do you grade Joe Biden so far in his management of the world I think Biden's done a good job at a extremely difficult time Jee because the calendar says it's 2024 it's really 1989 what I mean by that is we are uh just as 1989 was when we defined the postc Cold War World um as set the terms and projected American power power to keep it stable and forward we're now trying to define the post post Cold War World um and what will be our relations with Russia China um and and the other uh great powers and if you if if to put the Hamas Ukraine war into this uh you know the the war in Gaza began on October 7th and I always ask myself you know what was going on in the world on October 6th the day before and October 6 uh Ukraine was actually trying to join the West uh and Israel was trying to join the East through nor iing with Saudi Arabia right now had Ukraine been able to join the West um in the form of NATO and the European Union Etc that would be the biggest expansion of a Europe ho and free since East Germany joined West Germany right um and Ukraine biggest land Army in Europe biggest bed brasket in Europe biggest one of the biggest Tech sectors in Europe you would have had uh we've been very close to a Europe hole and free Putin understood the threat of that because he would have been isolated especially if a successful Slavic Ukrainian democracy was in the EU in contrast to his Slavic kleptocracy right uh so he moved to stop it um at the same time Israel was uh negotiating with Saudi Arabia on normalization terms terms that also would have included some kind of Israeli partnership with the Palestinian Authority had Israel been able to normalize with Saudi Arabia it would be the biggest expansion of an inclusive Middle East since Camp David right and Iran understood that Iran understood it so well that the supreme leader this week Jeff told us so he said we stop stop the Israeli normalization right so this is a big moment it's a moment defining what will be the post post Cold War World um and and who will be the sort of partners for a a world of decency um and who are going to keep the world uh I think fractured divided and and um uh around less decent forces right let me ask you uh is a obviously a shared preoccupation over many years but let me ask you about Joe Biden's relationship with the Prime Minister uh Israel which is one of his most intense and problematic relations with an ally at least uh over the last several months uh you've been writing about netan for years how do you judge his management of the challenge posed by Iran and its proxy forces including Hamas and in Gaza netanyahu's Netanyahu yeah um well i' given him very low marks basically because you know Israel today Jeff is in existential danger and it's not from Hamas uh an Iranian you know um uh entity has Israel surrounded on four fronts uh from a proxy the houis in Yemen from the south from uh the West with Hamas from the north with hisbah and from the East with the Shia militias and Iran itself and um they have managed actually to shrink Israel Iran has shrunk Israel there are about 880,000 now refugees from Israel's northern border fleeing the fighting with Lebanon and another 60 70,000 from its western border they've shrunk Israel and what's really scary I'd say from an Israeli point of view is that um I don't see that anyone has the answer for it Jeff um uh because what is the answer and and I wrote about this a while back I called it the Biden Doctrine so because because Biden did have an answer he said look Israel you face three challenges now one is how to get out of Gaza and leave behind a better situation security wise you um uh have a conflict with the Palestinians Ono in the West Bank as well and you have a regional conflict with Iran the answer to all three questions is some kind of partnership with legitimate Palestinian Authority a legitimate reformed Palestinian Authority that gives you a partner to get out of Gaza it gives you a partner for future negotiations and it's the cement for a regional alliance against Iran because you can't Israel cannot expect that Jordan Egypt UAE Saudi Arabia are going to just indefinitely defend Israel from the next Iranian missile or rocket attack if Israel is is trying to anex the West Bank that's not those governments will not do that they won't be able to do that and Biden's been trying to say to Netanyahu you know you that that Palestinian partnership is the Key Stone of everything my my criticism of Biden would be he tends to talk about BB as my old friend BB love you pal but um uh don't agree with you no no no um uh Netanyahu is this is not your grand fathers Netanyahu this is Guy focused on his survival his political survival which is key to staying out of jail for him and I believe he's put that ahead of the interest not only of the United States but actually of Israel but what would you what would you expect Biden to do I mean one is the senior partner in a relationship and one is the small Junior partner so why you give Biden good grades overall but he's been unable to move netan in a what you would call a positive Direction yeah I mean I I Biden inherited such a bad hand you can't abandon Israel right now in the middle of a war with Hamas you know uh which is also a war with Iran was a was exactly was a proxy war with Iran that's what the Iranians want want them to do um uh you know I'm not sure what what he could do I'm I'm uh I I take your point but I I think he could have been firmer at different points along the way um and on one particular point which is BB we are not going another day with you another minute another hour if two things don't happen if I see another settlement in the West Bank another nail another brick another bag of cement okay or and if you don't come up with a Palestinian partner a credible legitimate Palestinian partner we can't help you and you can't help yourself and I think saying that over and over loudly and loudly the Israeli system needs that and that's where I would give Biden lower Mark see the Israeli Prime Minister depends on the United States and the American president so the Prime Minister goes to his cabin and says good I'd like to do all these crazy things that you you right-wing settlers want me to do but the American president broke my arm he broke my arm just I I'm with you I'm with you but the Americans we haven't been that clear and we haven't been that clear publicly you know I learned a long time ago as a journalist what BB Netanyahu tells you in English in private is irrelevant all that matters is what he says in Hebrew in public to his own people and by the way if BB Netanyahu is inviting you as a journalist for an interview here's a tip that's not a compliment okay it's because he thinks he can get something past you right and so he is still in that mode and and what we don't do enough with Israel seems I'm Rel to tell you that I haven't been years I don't think you've been either I'm not we don't exchange H cards um but it's uh the the the point is we need to speak more to the Israeli people in public ourselves and less to him um and and that's been my my the very I want to come back to something which I think is fairly shocking that you said the use of the word existential term existential danger to talk about um where Israel is and obviously this is a massive preoccupation of American foreign policy thought and America generally do you think you've been doing this for 45 years covering covering that particular part of the Middle East and the broader Middle East and the rest of the world as well but you've been on that Israel beat for 45 years have you ever seen this Israel in this much trouble no I've not 1982 the Lebanon war no it was not an existential danger it was in it it it had danger um of of losing some ground in Lebanon losing soldiers losing a global PR battle um but it wasn't facing a regional uh uh superpower like Iran that's extremely smart that um has got Israel um and in in 1982 remember none of the Arab countries around it had Precision weapons why is the fight with hisb in Lebanon so scary and why do they each go right to the brink it seems every day and then just pull back because his b now has 100 to 120,000 Rockets but maybe 20,000 of them are Precision weapons so if you think of Hamas they had to fire 10,000 sorry they had to fire 50 Rockets to maybe hit one target right Precision rocket you fire one you hit the Israeli oil refinery you hit another you hit the the air base you hit another you hit the defense Ministry you had another hit L airport in in in uh one international airport and so the next Arab Israeli the next Israeli his Bala war is one neither can afford they will destroy each other right right um let me ask you this something fascinating you wrote the other day about Saudi Arabia key player obviously the most important Arab Sunni uh country um and you're talking about um the Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman um who obviously has quite a controversal reputation in our country said you wrote Saudi Crown Prince muhammadan has put his country's worst religious extremists in jail while Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has put his country's worst religious extremists in his cabinet we all know that the only constant in the Middle East is sudden and dramatic change but that's crazy yeah I mean that Saudi you're saying in some ways the leader of Saudi Arabia is more Progressive on the subject of fundamentalism than the leader of an ostensible democracy Israel well it's because one is not a democracy and one is so BB needed a coalition and to stay in power he needed to bring into Power people who have never been given that kind of power before and we are talking about Jewish supremacist we're talking about a cabinet of uh in American terms you know Marjorie Taylor green uh Steve Bannon is Secretary of State you know um uh Flynn is Secretary of Defense um uh people you never imagined referring to next February by way that's right exactly we may be there stop with the science F right exactly yeah so and and that's you know I always say Israel is to wider Trends in western civilization what Off Broadway is to Broadway a lot of stuff starts there in miniature and comes to Broadway so this is I mean in some ways I was going to ask you that this is an Iranian Tri what's going on exactly and Trump and netan are brothers from different mothers you know I mean I mean netan is smarter but they represent the same political phenomena in each country right and so um uh Saudi Arabia uh basically when you talk to you know the the Crown Prince he'll tell we've basically been sleeping you know for for 20 years and his focus is economic development shake the place up and we're going to get away from this whole islamist um Trend people have to learn real subjects have real jobs right um uh in in Israel's case BB brought these people in because it was the only way that he could survive politically but as I've told my uh Jewish friends brothers and sisters um you didn't go to Jewish summer camp with these people Jeff they were not in the cabin in the Catskills next to you you've never met people like this they just walked out of the second temple they are messian they're they are they are extreme and they're extremely smart and they're the equivalent in some ways of the people who populate the Islamic revolutionary guard Corps in Iran in the in the in the certainty of their Messianic Vision you know you got to say one thing about that when I lived in Beirut um back in the late 7 and ' 80s um uh we had a landlord in our apartment my wife and I um his name was Eddie ganum around 4:00 every day not every day many days Eddie would shout down he was on the fourth floor we were on the first Thomas come have coffee come have coffee and I say Eddie I got to work I can't I got to write something these guys um the is Bala guys the Iranian Revolution guards these these settlers they don't come have coffee they they they they will take you down they will take you out and and then they will go home and quietly enjoy a Turkish coffee on their own not these are serious people so let me ask you this because it's a it's a it's a question about the approach of Donald Trump to the Middle East versus Joe Biden to the Middle East You could argue after the sulamani hit that Trump ordered you could argue that that actually scared Iran into a kind of quesence for a while my question to you is this who is the The Who are the Iranians more afraid of right now the Iranian leadership Donald Trump or Joe Biden um I'm not sure um they're afraid of either one let's remember Donald Trump did in my view in partnership with Benjamin Netanyahu the single stupidest thing that's been done in post Cold War foreign policy they tore up the Iran nuclear deal and got nothing in return um that deal that President Obama negotiated had Iran a year away from a bomb basically Iran is now weeks days away from OB bomb or it might we don't even we don't know for sure whatever but but we're we're we're talking we gave up real leverage on them that that was a disaster so that was not trumpian toughness that was just a dumb move and BB talked him out of it talked him into tearing it up I think because he thought well if the Iranians go ahead and and and enrich more Trump will bomb them well he didn't do it remember when Iran bombed up cake the Saudi oil facility right Trump didn't do anything in fact he said we'll sell you more Patriots right right so so in other words Trump is unpredictable but he's not clever well you know he's he's he's predictable in this sense and it's been something I would say Jeff that Israeli uh security people have misread all along about the United States you know um if I can use my cup Israel is here Iran is here okay America is over here we were never ever ever ever ever going to bomb Iran for Israel and that remains the case that is Remains the case today and does it remain a bipartisan case today I I believe so and the Israelis even if Tom Cotton is the Secretary of Defense in the next Trump Administration I'm talking about a obviously if the Iranians threatened us directly that's another question but the Israelis thought if they just came over and spoke louder and explained the problem louder we would understand it better speaking of which and we didn't it was a big misreading of America's strategic interest and speaking of which the Prime Minister has been invited once again to address Congress by Mike Johnson though to the chrin of the Israeli liberals yes with Democratic uh kind of approval um so so nety is coming to America soon what do you expect to happen out of that trip you know apart from Bernie Sanders boycotting the speech of all the useless things I could think of to be done right now you know I always I've often say Jeff I love Israelis and Palestinians but God saved me from their American friends you know who who who basically um uh dive into this conflict and and sometimes exploit it for their own interests this is the case of Republicans wanting to bring netan over here Force Democrats to come out the Democratic progressives to come out against him embarrass Democratic party embarrass Biden and win votes that's all this is about I find it shameful that uh if all that B can when you think of all the things Biden's been done for Netanyahu I mean since this war started he knows this is something that that is not helpful to Biden at all or the Democratic party and he's playing along rather than say hey that's so nice of you to invite me but I really can't come right now right does he want Trump to win I think he focused on one thing his own Survival and I I don't think because he and Trump doesn't like him because he um acknowledged that that Joe Biden won the election yeah congratulated how crazy is that but I mean right no no this whole this whole situation is you know it's interesting you talk about um save us from the friends of the Palestinians and isra on the Palestinian side you've been following what's going on in the campuses and in the leftmost precincts of the democratic party you're a two-state solution guy that's your that's the only thing you could they are not the the hard left is for the eradication of Israel talk about that and how it feeds into this General tumult in in American domestic political look if you want to I'm I'm glad young people uh and old people are concerned about this war um and and the incredible number of of uh civilians who've been killed um on both sides but particularly because there's more uh Palestinians in Gaza women and children but if you're going to wait into this conflict to me you have to be morally serious and being morally serious involves three things one is you have to acknowledge how this started um uh that it started with a vicious attack by Hamas um on Israel uh out of the blue men women uh kids killed in front of their parents parents in front of their kids women raped okay so if if you just pretend that this Israel got up one day and did this that's not morally serious second in my view if you want to be for a solution guess what you know Jee it's actually even more fun to chant two states for two people two states for two people than you know from The River To The Sea and the only morally serious solution is two states for two indigenous people that's the only way out of this now a lot of people have been writing um uh two-state solution is impossible it's a pipe dream Etc to which my reaction is oh thank you very I I thought it was a slam dunk thank you very much I agree it's got about a 5% chance of success and I'm going to devote 100% of my energy to that 5% because the only alternative is a Forever War Mass death Mass death on both sides right and if you're going to be morally serious about this you have to acknowledge how many Hamas civilians detested how many sorry gazin civilians detested hamas's rule okay they they they were not popular there were too popular uprisings against them in the last few years so to think that they're um you know um the you know the the some boy scout troop in in in charge there so so again I'm glad people are involved I'm glad they care about civilian casualties I want this war ended yesterday right um I wasn't for it to begin with let's be clear but um uh you got to be morally serious about it in the minute that we have left um I need you to solve the Middle East crisis no I'm not going to ask you an impossible question I'm going to ask you a near impossible question is is there anything in that part of the world and US relationship with that part of the world that gives you any kind of cause for optimism yes um you know I covered in the year before theas War this incredible Uprising in Israeli Civil Society a democracy movement against Net's effort to quash the Supreme Court I met young Israelis who I never met before I think there's a new generation of leadership ready to take over there are ready to move into politics they're incredibly impressive um they're they're real Democrats um but we need to get this war over and I believe the same can be true on the Palestinian side you've seen that yes I believe that they're there and and and one of the things that really disappointed me is that we this is another criticism I would have a Biden we let Abu maazin the PA leader um appoint a new government not of that new generation because they're there right um and I think that's what we're going to have to get to that's my one hope Tom I wish we can go on for another couple of hours but we we can unfortunately we need to leave it there for now but I want to thank Tom Freeman for being here and for sharing his insight and Analysis and thanks to our viewers for joining us as well for more on what America's allies think about a possible second Trump presidency check out McKay coin's new piece on at theatlantic.com on NATO I'm Jeffrey Goldberg good night from Washington corporate funding for Washington Week with the Atlantic is provided by Consumer Cellular this is Sam how may help you this is a pocket dial well somebody's pocket thought I'd let you know that with Consumer Cellular you get Nationwide coverage with no contract that's kind of our thing have a nice day additional funding is provided by K and Patricia Yuan with the Yuan Foundation committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities Sandra and Carl delay Magnuson Rose hsel and Andy shres Robert and Susan rosenbom The Corporation for Public Broadcasting and by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you thank you [Music] you're watching PBS 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Length: 24min 9sec (1449 seconds)

Published: Sat Jun 08 2024