Virginia Hall: America’s Most Successful Female WWII Spy

Good evening everyone welcome to the International  Spy Museum I'm Amanda Ohlke the director of adult   education here and it is such an incredible  pleasure to hold this program about Virginia   Hall I joined the museum a little over 15 and  a half years ago and that's where I was first   introduced to the amazing Virginia Hall and I've  been a huge fan of this amazing woman ever since   and we have two other really amazing women here  tonight to discuss her Sonia Purnell who is the   author of a woman of no importance the untold  story of the American spy who helped win World War   two is a biographer and journalist who's worked at  The Economist The Telegraph and The Sunday Times   her book her book Clementine the life of mrs.  Winston Churchill was chosen as a Book of the   Year by the Telegraph and the independent and was  a finalist for the Plutarch award her first book   just Boris was long listed for the Orwell prize  and our moderator for the evening is John and   Mendez she's a former CIA chief of disguise her  CIA career spans 27 years and won her the CIA's   intelligence commendation medal she is currently  a lecturer teacher and consultant she's the author   of several books with her husband Tony Mendez  including this year's the Moscow rules so before   I let these rockstars into the room with you all  I'll tell you a few pieces of business phone's   off no no looking to see if the naps have started  yet we will have we will welcome questions at the   end and we have a microphone over there for Q&A  so if you have a question at the end we'll line   up over there and I think we're in for an amazing  evening there's already this wonderful mysterious   artifact we'll hear more about so you aren't here  to listen to me you're here to listen - Thank You   Amanda it's always a pleasure to be on this stage  pleasure to see you here tonight thank you for not   going to that baseball game oh no it's a pleasure  to be sitting here with Sonia Pernell I've been   following her for some time I first bumped into  Sonia in her book Clementine I don't know if any   of you have looked at it but it is about Winston  Churchill's wife Clementine who was sort of behind   the scenes one of the most powerful women that  you'll ever read about in the book was a powerful   book thank you I'd be interested to start out  with to have you tell us how you were attracted   to the story of Virginia Hall another extremely  powerful woman well I realized from writing and   researching in Clementine that there were still  lots of stories about the Second World War that   we didn't know about important stories great  heroism a great important role in in winning   that war and I've always been interested in in  espionage my my father was for a fairly brief   time in counterintelligence themselves so I was  slightly brought up in that world and I started   looking at some of the spies in world war ii  and i realized that quite often there would be   mentioned but really quite brief mention of this  amazing american with a wooden leg who'd done his   extraordinary daring to deeds during the war and  yet seem really to have been kind of brushed over   a little bit didn't really get the attention  she deserved I started digging into her story   I simply couldn't believe how epic it was and the  more I doubt the more extraordinary became to the   point where I realized that if I had ever written  a novel saying that one person could have done all   these things people would have dismissed it as  absurd but it's all true so it's a case of fact   is really more extraordinary in fiction I think  you've proven that right the fact that Virginia   Hall is what we would consider a local girl she's  from Baltimore from a very very well-to-do family   who was raised in in in a most proper way to be  not a debutante but to be a very socially proper   young woman and the fact that she went off to  war is just remarkable well that's right we just   have a quick look at where she grew up was going  back one so that's where she grew up just outside   Baltimore that was the family farm house they had  a farm there with goats and sheep and she grew up   with all these animals they also had an apartment  in downtown Baltimore though that was only rented   they had been a very wealthy family but money  had been a bit dissipated that they weren't   as wealthy as they once had been and Virginia's  mother and Barbara mrs. Barbara hall who'd been   her father's secretary so she kind of gone up a  few rungs herself wanted the family to go back   to their previous social Heights and her plan for  this was to marry Virginia off her only daughter   off to a wealthy young man and that way the Rio  rejects money into the family but there was a   problem with with that great plan and and that  problem was Virginia who had very very different   ideas and let me just show you so as you can see  that she was a tomboy and she didn't want to get   married off to some wealthy guy in in Baltimore  somewhere because she much preferred doing things   like going hunting with her dad in the far  and rising bareback on horses and all sorts   of country pursuits and in fact on one occasion  at least one occasion I think she went into her   high school with a bracelet made out of live snake  7 and this was kind of her entertainment and she   wanted a career she wanted to be an emancipated  young woman with her own life and so she really   was that loggerheads with her mother and this was  going to be quite difficult the rest of her life   really exactly that went on throughout her life I  know she loved languages I know she loved living   and traveling abroad I think she spoke the end  six languages five or six languages that's right   she managed to persuade her father Ned she called  her father Ned to support the idea of her going to   study abroad in in Paris initially and later  in Vienna and elsewhere she studied in seven   different universities both here in the US and  and over in Europe but it was France that really   she fell in love with and I can just show you how  she looked when she went to although she is with   everyone she does love those animals on that farm  and here she is and actually those animals will   come in very useful later but this is what she  looked like when she went over to Paris in the   1920s in 1926 when she was 20 and this was during  their zani full and it was the most exciting time   there were you know poets and writers and artists  and intellectuals of all sorts there was no racial   segregation there was no prohibition and she loved  Paris that she felt totally emancipated there that   all these also these women could they guess on  women who wore men's clothing and lived exactly   as they please and this was something she never  ever fell out of love with France really and to   her France and Paris in particular meant a freedom  that she cherished forever I know that she started   out working overseas for the State Department for  the American State Department and she had several   assignments several tours in different countries  well that's right so with all these languages and   all this knowledge of European politics and she  was she was a ring had a ringside seat for the   rise of nationalism in in Austria in Germany  in in Italy so this made her want to become an   ambassador that was her great dream of course  women weren't American ambassadors at the time   but she applied to the State Department we know  she did extremely well in her oral examination   she got a hundred percent everyone thought with  those five languages those all his qualifications   that she'd be a shoo-in but the letter came and  the rejection was pretty brutal but perhaps she   should have known there were 1,500 American  diplomats at the time and only six of them   were women then it one of them was not going to  be Virginia that would be a big clue and then   she found out I think when she took the last which  she took the test the last time didn't they quote   to her from some rule and regulation well that's  right because when she joined the State Department   actually but only as the secretary just just as  her mother had done you know just by having all   these qualifications all this experience and  what happened was one of the postings she was   given was in Turkey in the consulate in Izmir  and her father had died by this point he'd had   a heart attack off the Wall Street Crash they'd  lost yet more money and it was it was tough for   him and he worried greatly but he'd given her this  gun and she went hunting with it in in Turkey in   the marshes there and they were shooting snipe  and what happened that day when she was hunting   was something that was going to make her a truly  great agent although what I'm about to tell you   what it is you'll be amazed that this would be  something that would make her just the person for   a Secret Service so she was out hunting with her  friends in Turkey it was a beautiful crisp sunny   day December they were shooting snipe but they  have a very erratic pattern of flight apparently   and I guess she wasn't looking where she was going  she was always competitive probably wanted to be   the first to to hit the target she tripped over a  wire fence that was running through the reeds in   the marshes and and as she as she fell she grabs  her gun and she hadn't engaged the safety catch   and she literally shot herself in the foot in the  left foot at point-blank range well initially they   thought she was okay obviously they rushed her to  the local hospital they thought she was okay but   then within a few weeks her legs started to change  color and they realized that she had gangrene and   she was on the point of death when they you know  they decided the only possible way of saving her   was by cutting her leg off below the knee and she  nearly died a couple more times after that from   septicemia the fact that she survived is a miracle  there were no antibiotics then of course and a   lot of people thought that she would just kind of  give up go home to Baltimore you know have a quiet   life sitting in the corner but I think people just  didn't understand for ginyan you see that accident   she's always been an adventurous soul a free  spirit but that accident made her into something   quite quite different no longer so naive perhaps  but absolutely determined that her life would   still be worth living that she would be a useful  person someone who would play a great part I think   it drove her in a way that if this hadn't happened  she might have actually had a quieter life I know   that's kind of slightly surprising but I really  believe that that's the case where it would have   been game over for a lot of a lot of young women  oh yeah I mean who had ambition who had plans who   had dreams of ambassadorships or you know see in  the world look quite right and prosthetic legs in   those days I've managed to track down a prosthetic  historian so that I got the because there is such   a person I got the absolute details correct of  what her leg would have been like it was made   out of wood it was Hollow there was a metal heel  which a little slot in it very handy later on but   it was held on with leather straps thick leather  straps of big buckles that chafed rubbed away her   skin in hot weather she couldn't flex her ankle  or bend it so going up or down was very difficult   and from that day onwards till the day she died  she was in constant pain I was doing a literary   festival in London a couple of weeks ago and it  was run by a guy who'd been in Afghanistan and   had lost both legs and he had incredible modern  prosthetics extraordinary nothing like hers and   he said that their cushion now was silicon but  I noticed while we were talking he was leaning   against the wall and I said do they hurt and he  said yeah even now they they hurt even with all   the modern technology so imagine the pain that  she was in forever and I think you get some idea   of just how determined that she worked through  that she was absolutely determined as it would   not contain her life there is a picture of a an  article in The Baltimore Sun you see it describes   her as a victim that's not Virginia's idea that  she didn't want to be a victim at all and so she   said to the State Department I'm coming back to  work and I reckon the State Department weren't   actually all that excited about the idea because  junior aware they posted her next the remedy   couldn't flex or bend her ankle can go up or  down very easily Venice so there are 400 little   bridges that go over the canals her job in the  consulate was to go around town the whole time   she was a new amputee in a lot of pain but this  is where we start to get to know the Virginia   who became the great agent she became because she  was now a hugely talented problem solver and she   came up with an ingenious idea how would therefore  was she going to get around town and how she got   around town was she brought her own gondola and a  wonderful gondola you can't see it in this picture   but I had a huge lion emblazoned across the front  and she Angelo her Chum there talk to how to you   don't I thought you punted the gondola don't you  row it and it's everybody ever been to Venice but   those canals can get quite choppy so he was often  there to catch her if it looked like she was about   to fall in because believe me that's difficult  enough for two good legs but if you're a new   amputee it's very difficult indeed but Virginia  was Virginia and Virginia was going to make it   work and she did and she did extremely well on  her job her bosses were amazed she stood in for   all the diplomats when they were busy or away  she retook the exam to become a diplomat in her   own right she passed all the exams and then she  was told no you can't become a diplomat we have   a rule barring amputees that you cannot join the  Diplomatic Service whereas in fact I was in Boston   a couple of months ago and a gentleman came up  at the end of the lecture and said my grandfather   lost a leg in the first world war and he joined  the diplomatic service at this point and there was   no problem so I think we know what's going on here  they simply did not want a woman and particularly   a disabled woman joining the diplomatic service so  I think you can imagine if if that did not deter   her and if if losing the limb did not deter her I  wonder if you can if you can speak to how she how   she decided that if State Department the American  State Department would not have her perhaps the   British SOE would have her and there was an  ambulance involved in that in that transition   can you can you speak to those well yes I mean so  as the world was now spinning towards war and she   wanted more than ever to play her parts and so she  resigned from the State Department went to Britain   as war was declared and offered her services and  and over to the British Army afraid they weren't   interested at this so she then went back to France  and offered her services there and it was at this   point that things began to change because the the  French army said okay yeah will you um will you   drive an ambulance for us up on the Maginot Line  don't worry there won't be any fighting because   the Maginot Line is impregnable and nothing will  ever you know go wrong there and so they recruited   her to work for the service just on today's army  and I'm absolutely thrilled to say that that's   her jacket their mayor of bonesaw who's joined us  this evening where Virginia ended her days it was   her last house has brought it so SSA you can see  on the sleeve of the jacket with the cap there as   well the museum have her tag too and she drove  Nana's in that very jacket is extraordinary and   well they were wrong about the Maginot Line  weren't they the Germans invaded and a few   days after she went up there and she drove the  ambulance to and fro from the battlefield under   machine-gun fire under bombardment kept going  with a lot of the French army were deserting by   this point it was clearly hopeless but she kept  going and she called her her prosthetic leg her   wooden leg Cuthbert I mean Cuthbert was hurting  a lot because she had to keep pressing down on   the clutch it was a European gearshift ambulance  she kept going for weeks it was extraordinary she   had to weave through millions of refugees fleeing  in the opposite direction and somehow though she   would keep going so that was her first brush with  fighting and there was a pretty dramatic one she   was under fire a lot and she kept going when  France eventually capitulated only after about   six weeks she decided that she do you read me she  came back to Baltimore at this point for a quiet   life okay no she didn't she's like that she would  go to Britain again offer her services again and   she had to travel down of course you couldn't  just cross the English Channel to Britain now   because of the state of war you had to go right  the way through France now the Third Reich bandit   country credibly dangerous a woman on her own all  the way down through France over the Pyrenees into   Spain in order to go to Portugal and catch a ship  up to Britain and it was in doing that a really   perilous journey in Spain in a railway station  a billion to one chance she was approached by   an undercover British agent who just noticed her  and her attitude has kind of force of personality   was obvious to him and this is the only time he  appears in history his name is George bellows   and he gave her a piece of paper which he said  was the phone number of a friend when she got to   London why don't you call him he said it wasn't  a friend it was a senior official at the Special   Operations Executive Vincent Churchill's new  Secret Service the Ministry of ungentlemanly   warfare as it became known which was sort of part  James Bond part chin faint it was part spying the   auto sabotage subversion incredibly creative but  dangerous idea and the interesting thing was that   after six months of trying they hadn't been  able to try to infiltrate a single agent into   France the France was still dark there was like  North Korea as to us now but even more so and   then Virginia Hall a disabled American woman from  Baltimore rocks up and says I'll go in I'll do it   for you and this is just one of those moments  in history where you just wonder what are the   chances of that happening but it did that's what  happened so she phoned that phone number went to   dinner and was recruited on the spot and the  story then really begins she went to France   she was documented I believe as a journalist as  a reporter she had the language skills she had   the personal skills speaking of personal skills  I told Virginia when when we met earlier before   we came out I said you know I want to talk to you  about how Virginia Hall what did she to this war   effort what did she bring to the resistance in  France that made it work so well I said when I   was thinking about her characteristics they just  they line up exactly with the characteristics that   we have been looking for at CIA when we hire  officers today so in my book which I published   in May I made a note on page 38 about the kind of  person we wanted today it's CIA we're looking for   personality we're looking for some ego a person  who is competitive a person who is curious maybe   with a little bit of charisma with a lot of  self-assurance they needed to be adventuresome   problem-solvers these were the hallmarks of  a CIA case officer they also were gregarious   outgoing and amiable and it's like someone it's  like I wrote a description of Virginia Hall when   I wrote my book the Moscow rules the fact that  she was able to to use that cover as a reporter   that she was able to recruit resistance fighters  all kinds of people came to her most of the men   and she was able to manage them and command them  an American woman in France in wartime is just   remarkable no matter what year what generation  that happened in it's just such a tribute to   her I mean it is remarkable I mean I think you  can see from her face this is how she looks now   what this is a wartime picture for you kind of  wouldn't mess with her whoa cheering she looks   pretty pretty determines I think so yes she went  in undercover as American journalist of the New   York Post and she was given a 50-50 chance really  of surviving the first few days so the Brits were   utterly astonished when an article appeared in  the New York Post underneath her byline that was   the only way initially that she could communicate  with London there was no backup things went wrong   there were no contacts when she arrived she  started from scratch with no way communicating   with London apart from writing articles for the  New York Post that contained coded messages and   they couldn't contact her at all but they were  astonished when the first piece of appeared in the   paper that she was alive she was writing articles  already and from that blank piece of paper a very   little training before she went out because they  weren't quite sure what they were training her   for this kind of thing hadn't been done before she  was going into enemy territory to set up networks   at a time when everyone thinks that the resistance  just kind of lept into being when when France was   invaded that's not true that's absolutely not  true most people were to count too frightened   to do anything they were denunciation is the  whole time though collaborators and spies and   and people just wanted to try and keep their kids  alive just as survive and so that really wasn't   any kind of network at all when she went in France  was dark completely dark but she went in and just   started this the flame of the resistance she  started these networks slowly slowly expanding   them across France and she recruited all sorts of  unusual people she was an American woman America   wasn't in the war this is before Pearl Harbor and  yet she recruited the police chief people in the   French government nuns the local brothel owner  railway workers people working in the town hall   businessman all sorts of people somehow her force  of personality was having totally wholesome and   trustworthy about her and just sheer hutzpah and  charisma meant that people signed up even though   they knew they were caught that that would be  curtains they would be that they would be executed   she persuaded them that it was worth it and you  know what when you think to that the German and   Vichy government propaganda was that Britain had  also surrendered her capitulated that their work   there was no one who was going to come and rescue  France it was entirely on their own and she had   to keep saying no that's not true Britain is is  fighting on and one day they will come back but   in the means we must prepare so you imagine the  force of personality she had to have to persuade   people that that was the case when they were being  repeatedly told otherwise and so from those sort   of very minor beginnings this incredible Network  spread across the whole of France and and the   downside of that of course is that she started to  become noticeable and well-known with the Germans   and the Vichy police and they knew after a while  initially they thought it must be a man who was   doing all of this they knew that something was  going on then they heard it was a woman and then   they discovered it was a woman with a limp which  of course made her conspicuous and vulnerable   and the fact that she wasn't caught is almost  unbelievable but I think her field craft was   such and her her foster personality her contacts  were so extensive and so she was often tipped off   when they were closing in that she managed to  evade capture which is really extraordinary of   those who seem much more conventionally suitable  to be agents either gave up broke down or were   caught you know when I was reading when I was  reading the book I know from from my background   that that what she was doing she was collecting  information on where where the Germans were their   order of battle how many tanks how many men where  are they going now what are they up to she had to   communicate that back to London to communicate it  back to London she needed some radio operators at   some point a lot of intelligence is it's really  really timely if it takes too long to get it to   the people that need it it's not intelligence  anymore it's news intelligence is kind of of   the moment so she was going back to London they  were sending in some radio operators and that was   also a very dangerous job those radio operators  right then she had them to take care of to hide   to cover up for she was orchestrating a kind of a  small Symphony and the work that they were doing   was incredible can you describe that some of the  results that she was getting what was happening   because of her reporting yes America ball some  songs her intelligence went to Churchill himself I   mean almost certainly she managed to find out when  petal was having meetings with Goering Hitler's   deputy she managed to get that back to London  when Mussolini son-in-law was having meetings with   peasants deputies she was sending back as you say  troop movements the construction of a submarine   base all sorts of vital information but she was  also starting to create sabotage cells they were   going very easy on sabotage but gamers because  they didn't want you know the German reprisal   reprisals were brutal so they wanted to go slowly  on that until they knew that they could sustain   the sabotage campaign but she had to get those  sabotage cells ready but the other thing was that   other agents were now coming in and joining her  in France and they were radio operators sabotage   experts all sorts of people but it was dangerous  I mean anyone you talk to any one of you in the   crowd like this could have been a collaborative  collaborator you had no way of knowing and a lot   of those agents coming in didn't seem to have a  genius Sixth Sense and she certainly had that some   kind of antenna that she seemed to have again  I think maybe her accident had given her that   she's had to become so self-reliant but a lot of  the men who'd were sent in but were a little more   careless and actually not so self aligned and 12  of them broke the cardinal rule of security and   met up they wanted comfort it was scary being in  the field and they wanted comfort in camaraderie   and they met up in a villa in Marseilles but it  was a trap and they were caught and that pretty   much left Virginia Hall as the pretty much the  only allied agent in the whole of France so she   carried Allied intelligence by herself for a while  while all these other guys were caught but do you   think she just left it like I mean you know it was  desperate they had to get these guys out of jail   she didn't she became the most extraordinarily  accomplished and ingenious jailbreak ace and   one of the things that she did and and became  so good at that the secret documents SOE secret   documents called it stupefying how good she was  at this she came up all sorts of ingenious plans   to get men out of jail at the other agents out  of jail and I was one in particular a very sort   of famous within SOE but totally unknown to  everyone else was the breakout from Mo's AK   which was a prison camp 12 esily agents in there  awaiting execution she'd managed to persuade her   contacts and the French government to move them  from a stone fortress to this outdoor camp but   still they were expected to be executed and then  she put together this astonishing plan so I'm not   gonna tell you all the details of you'll have to  find out in the book but those 12 guys in there   she got every single one out of a camp I mean you  know great escape eat your heart out because they   all basically didn't make it these guys she got  them out she got them into the safe house she got   the Mo's of the Pyrenees into Spain and she got  them back to Britain him John have a have a look   there you go there's the camp and it was named  G she had all sorts of ingenious plans including   the help of a priest with no legs who smuggled  in a radio set underneath his cassock but see   a little clearer I'm gonna give you she got them  all out July 1942 and there they are and she was   recommended for the commander of the British  Empire very very prestigious honour in Britain   for this but because she was still in the field  they couldn't actually talk about what she danced   the citation was simply she'd done extraordinary  things and so she was turned down because they   couldn't really say what she'd done but this was  astonishing that Hitler himself went berserk over   this he knew that they someone and they now knew  bull or suspected it was the limping lady had made   a fool out of them out of the Vichy police and the  sort of Nazi occupiers so she was hot property by   this point and the Gestapo put out a command of  1942 that she was the most dangerous of all our   allied spies we must find and destroy her and they  now knew exactly what she looked like they thought   they knew where she was and they they unleashed  the most wicked double agent to infiltrate her   networks he was a priest and a remarkably evil  man who did in the end infiltrate our network he   did indeed I'm I'm not sure whether we want to  talk about walking over the Pyrenees at this at   this point she had gone back to she had gone back  to London on the radio and this is a famous story   within CIA she had told London that Cuthbert was  giving her a problem a London came back and said   if Cuthbert is giving you a problem eliminate  him they thought Cuthbert was a guy it was her   leg of course nevertheless she knew that she  had to move out of there there was just too   much scrutiny around her at that time right yeah I  mean when she had London had asked her well they'd   ordered her to evacuate several occasions and  she's always found some kind of way of avoiding   obeying those laws but now was quite clear that  they were the Gestapo right on her tail she had   to get out there's November 1942 well in the worst  winters for 200 years the only way out for her was   to go over the highest pass that no sane person  let alone a disabled woman in the heaviest snows   in 200 years I'm contemplate unfun foot yeah  with Cuthbert being tiresome the rivets were   coming loose imagine that remember she couldn't  flex will bend her ankle she went over an 8,000   foot pass in heavy snow that's no shoes really  basically suffering from starvation there's very   little food in France at that point was a Gestapo  on her tail of the aid of a guys those guys were   hard-bitten guys and if he'd ever found out that  cuff was existed he would have pushed her in a   ravine or shot her in the back of the head because  he didn't want to get caught and he thought he   would have thought well you know someone's gonna  slow me down I'm I'm you know gonna get rid of   that problem so somehow or other though she got  over those mountains she made it to Spain again   the secret documents say that this was a record  all in itself and yet that's only part of her   story also imagine a pen blood was pouring from  her stump while she was making that claim that   time is his let's do all sideways because of the  problem with her ankles so she went down to Spain   and she got out she went what Portugal she caught  a ship she went to London mm-hmm she had some   meetings they had some conversations and she said  well she said I'm going back in going back in and   SOE said no you're not you're completely brulée  which was the term they used meaning compromise   I mean that their Gestapo had photographs of her  now all units had a photograph of her they knew   that her name they knew everything about her so  the Brits said there's no way you're going back   in but Virginia being Virginia said okay I'll  go and work for the Americans then so she just   moved over to OSS the American counterpart of  SOE and said I'll come and work for you and they   were desperate to find anyone with the kind of  experience that she had pers there wasn't that   many Americans who did she was a kind of a one-off  and so they said okay well we'll send you listen   doing but obviously you can't look like Virginia  hall anymore for very obvious reasons and so she   went back in disguised as a milkmaid and she got  Hollywood makeup artists to teach her how to draw   wrinkles on her face that were convincing enough  that German officers will come right up to her   hair into her face and not realized that she  was Virginia Hall you got a London dentist to   grind down her beautiful white American teeth so  that she looked like a French president remember   this was the only protection she had was that  they wouldn't suspect who she was and those days   childhood days on the farm the goats the Sheep the  cows meant that she knew how to cope with animals   and and Jonah who was the CIA's great chief of  disguise expert I think Virginia Hall came up with   the best disguise I ever heard of she's the lady  who limps so she got a flock of goats she dressed   as an old peasant woman she's out in the field  she's surrounded by these animals moving about   she's got a staff she has every Bush it's not  just a disguise it's a cover also she couldn't   have been less alarming she couldn't have been  more dangerous because she could watch what's   going on in the road she could see them when the  trains were coming over the bridges she still had   the capability to call in airstrikes she had the  capability to call in they were dropping money in   these big canisters she was distributing it to of  the various resistance groups that she was working   with she was hell on wheels except she wasn't on  wheels she was on one leg and had about 40 goats   and it was just brilliant she also listened into  German conversations so there were troops sort   of you know by side of the road cause she knew  German from way back and she would listen in to   what they were saying and then by this point she  had trained as a radio operator on her own night   that in her own right and every night she was  transmitting this intelligence back back to London   because the OSS were headquartered in London  as well so she was absolute dynamite but those   radio transmissions they made her situation more  dangerous in Grasse Germans were they could tell   there was a radio in a particular region and they  would they would put huge effort into zeroing in   on where was that radio what farmhouse was it  in what attic wasn't in so she had to be moving   all the time she couldn't be static in one place  she was yeah I mean radio operators were given an   average of three weeks yeah survival in in the  field so the fact that she volunteered knowing   that she'd be in the field she knew how dangerous  it was not just volunteers she demanded training   as a radio operator in that way that she could  send back this intelligence so we're now leading   up to d-day things are getting very very tense  indeed and the Germans are putting huge resources   into tracking down radio operators because  the radio operator became this almost sort   of mythical creature that radio operator was the  only link between France and this idea that they   would finally be liberated that help was coming  so it was it was a practical thing obviously   sending intelligence receiving orders but also an  emotional link it meant so much to so many people   and for both of those reasons she wanted to train  as a radio operator but things were really really   dangerous and she was bringing in these parachute  drops she was recruiting for the resistance now   beyond the organisation stage now she was training  people to fight in the lead-up to d-day so she was   bringing guns and ammunition and explosives and  uniforms even and food because often they were   starving money as John has said and trying to get  these people into kind of like a ragbag army in   preparation for for d-day but it was unbelievably  dangerous and she had to keep changing farmhouse   and then finally she was ordered to go from  central France up to just go through food other   people will come out to that Spanish oh look there  she is earlier on so this is how she knew what to   do with goats and sheep and things but she was  ordered to go to the only word with any of you   know that but it's some just kind of quite remote  part of southern France we are big plateau but in   the valleys below they knew that there would be  huge German convoys going up north to Normandy   to reinforce the defenses because the Allied  lot you know d-day is now happening but these   guys on the plateau before Virginia ride they were  fighting the Germans with broomsticks and kitchen   knives pretty much and there was an uneven battle  obviously and they were desperate because they   felt completely ignored and forgotten Virginia  arrives and says ok you take my orders as to what   to do and I will bring in everything you need and  she organized 22 parachute drops on this plateau   and here's one of the the Maquis with one of her  guns on the plateau looking down in the valleys   where the German convoys were going past and  they started ambushing those convoys and making   it difficult for them to reach Normandy you know I  know this story but to hear it again it's just it   just makes your heart beat a little faster she was  she was absolutely something she was in charge she   was a woman an American woman running basically  the resistance in South France and and these the   resistance was not one monolithic group of people  it was it was splintered it was political yeah   very fact with all kinds of all kinds of tension  and and they were vying for money they were vying   for food for all of that and she kept it together  yeah when they were desperate and often dangerous   men and there she was it's one foreign woman  trying to keep some kind of order trying to   get them to take her orders it wasn't easy believe  me she had no military rank they had no idea who   was this foreign woman just you know coming out of  nowhere saying do this and I'll give you the guns   and bullets to do it I mean this was tough and  it's the only way through it really is her sheer   force of character I mean there were hundreds of  men they were farmers and vets and booksellers and   laborers and all sorts of people and they were  desperate a lot of them were starving they've   been living in the mountains in hiding for some  time often didn't have shoes didn't have food   didn't have much to wear she brought in uniforms  for them she washing shoes for them food money   vitamins all sorts of things and gradually she  became known as the Madonna of the mountains   because when she turned up it was like a miracle  so did great big Halifax bombers and instead of   dropping bombs they've dropped parachutes with all  these things that they needed and if you ever go   to the outlaw and I really urge you to go you  go up to the plateau there where the parachute   drops take place it's one of the most atmospheric  spots I have ever been to in my life and there   were two curious shaped mountains and the pilots  without GPS or anything obviously had to use those   mountains as navigation guys and that's when they  had to Bank around come around and they come down   to 600 feet and Virginia would have got the men  to make a whi out of burning twigs and then later   on car headlights so they knew how to come in  and at the center point of the Y was where they   opened the hatches and the parachutes would come  down but initially the first drop was late and   if it hadn't happened I don't think perhaps she  would have escaped with her life I think they were   desperate enough that they might have thought that  she was an impostor or a believer I feel something   and it's just as well that they did turn up on the  night that they did and then with those supplies   of course she was able to organize direct equip  train the most astonishingly successful campaign   as a guerrilla leader you know I'm reminded  my husband Tony when when he wanted one of the   operations that he did that turned into a movie  that looked like very dangerous operation and   it was a very dangerous operation but he said the  hard part of that operation it was not the doing   of it it was the dealing with the bureaucracy at  CIA headquarters in state department Honor I think   what another thing that you do talk about in the  book that's interesting is the fact that she was   being directed from from outside the country  by men originally British men that eventually   American men who might have doubted even when  she's in the thick of it they're not there with   her she had to rationalize all of her orders she  had to convince them as well as the resistance   that she was in charge and that she was perfectly  capable of running the show thank you very much   oh yes I mean that was always a struggle and  they never gave her that military rank that they   gave the male agents and this was always a problem  exerting her authority she had to do it in lots of   ingenious ways it you know it was never easy and  interestingly one of the the Maquis who she met   early only at lawar was incredibly obstructive and  said why should they take your orders why should   that take any notice of you who are you anyway how  dare you come here and interesting you though she   won him round and showed him what she could do  and why she was there and what they needed to do   together and you up after the war he spends about  20 years of his life who's obsessed with how much   she had done for his country he spent 20 years of  his life bringing together letters testimonials   documents papers photographs anything that would  and explain what she did this is fantastic news   for me of course was it it helps me hugely with  the book his name's P fil but it was interesting   that he initially was totally obstructive and yet  realized that this was a woman that could and did   help them and this is the sort of thing that she  with her help they were able to do okay so the   plan was not only to ambush convoys going past  but to isolate the German garrison in l'épée a   big German garrison there and how they did that  sort of thing here blow up bridges then drive a   train at high speed into the breach in the bridge  to maximize the damage you jump out of the seat   just beforehand so this is the sort of thing  that she trained them and got them to do the   idea being that you would isolate that garrison  you would cut off all the communications Road   railway telecommunications making the German  garrison believe that they're surrounded by a   huge professional army when it was no such thing  was a ragbag army of schoolboys and things here's   one of them he was 17 Gabriel he was the last  one of her Maquis to die in 2017 he was then   just 17 and orphan she took him on called him her  shushu or pet and he wrote to Pierre file after   the war when he was collecting this information  that it had been worth being born Joseph works   with Virginia Hall just for two months that's it  the extent the time they were together but as a   result of the things that they did such as this  the only war was one of the first departments of   France to be liberated and it was one of the few  that was liberated without the help of a single   professional soldier and bfayolle wrote after  war we we know just how much we owe Virginia   Hall I can tell you if you go up to the 8th lawar  now this is place called the lear de memoire sort   of memory spots it's like a little museum and  and they they almost worshipped Ginny Hall she's   as legend then they have this phrase about whole  time is it $12 year stars in their eyes when they   talk about Virginia hall and and there she is a  big figure one who is revered and scenes are so   great Savior and it's so extraordinary that she  remains well-known there and yet really so little   known here but this is the kind of thing she got  up to while she was she was widely decorated after   the war she received every medal I think that  you can you know that the main medals the the   Distinguished Service Cross from the American  government the French Croix de Guerre I think   Jacques Chirac was sent a letter that came along  with it and she was she got the MBE from London   from King George she didn't really care at all  about her medals did she about her honorary no   she did the citations I mean that there is she  receiving the the DSC the Distinguished Service   Cross she was the only civilian woman in World War  two to receive it and President Truman thought it   was such a big deal he wanted to give the ceremony  in the Oval Office in the White House and Virginia   being Virginia wrote back saying well thank you  mr. president but no thank you you see I want   to go on being a secret agent off of the wall so  she received the DSC in a in a ceremony from Wild   Bill Donovan who was the head of SS you see him  there see the back of him and the only witness   was her mother and that was this it was all done  in secret no one knew really and it's interesting   because let's go back there this was with some  of her they her codename at this point was Dee   Ann and these guys were known as the D and E  regulars and this photograph is taken as a Chateau   that they commandeered at one point and you can't  see him but just behind her is a chap called Paul   that Paul was the French American who had been  parachuted in way too late to help her she'd been   asking for backup it never came until the fighting  was more or less over but he still you know   took her orders watched her back respected her  completely and they fell in love and he is there   and they got together at this Chateau but although  he went back to America whether he's not at that   ceremony for Vegas reasons Barbara hall remembered  she wanted Virginia to marry a wealthy young man   and Paul was a chef by background and Virginia  wouldn't countenance her daughter being with such   person so Virginia heytell relationship with Paul  for the next 12 or so years from her mother and   it's extraordinary you think about it so Virginia  wasn't scared of the Gestapo or the Abwehr any of   these people but she was scared of her mom and  and I tell my sons this regularly and they just   don't get it but so that's why I pull isn't there  but Paul was there in the background and in Spirit   John see a picture Paul okay so this is later in  life because eventually they do get married and   he was a funny guy and he made her laugh and he as  her niece has put it to me license her life in the   end they did get married Palmyra was this going  to have to deal with it and they they settled   down in Barnesville and I'm very proud to say  the mayor of Barnesville is with us this evening   which is a great honor and oh sorry go back one oh  there we go there they are and Goya was his name   poor Gloria she managed to get some naturalized  American he was shorter than hers you can see   younger than her but you know you know they had  their ups and downs but I think basically it was   a happy margin it's just as well because when she  went on to work at the CIA after the world this   was not a happy experience it was not the people  that were there that that I had talked to over the   years say that she was she had a desk job at CIA  sort of a an administrative maybe an analyst that   she didn't like the work that she didn't really  bond with the people that were around her then   every once in a while some paramilitary guy would  wander in with all his you know military stuff   and sit on her desk and tell jokes and they'd  laugh and they talked about stories about back   during the war and then they kind of saw the real  Virginia Hall but but other than that she was she   was not really valued by the CIA when she came  back she came back to another generation the war   was over it was all behind them they didn't want  to hear the war stories they they wanted to move   forward and her time as CIA was unfortunately  not really productive no it wasn't I mean it   was really sad I think they didn't know what with  a woman who done all these extraordinary things   and for another war yeah and you know there were a  lot of them had had never blown up bridges or you   know operated in the way that she had and I mean  I think I don't think it's too strong to say that   [ __ ] on the some occasions she was humiliated  and I mean there was one occasion when she was   ordered to report to a male CIA officer to ranks  her junior I think it was very very difficult and   how would he hunter I'm sure some of you will know  from Watergate Fame he described her as the sacred   presence and he noticed how she was badly treated  I mean I to give him credit CA now admit that they   say that we did not use her talents well well you  bet you didn't use her talents well and she was   only promoted once in all her time I think then  only slightly out of embarrassment I I managed   to get all the sort of the personnel files through  a Freedom of Information Act and the CIA have been   actually very helpful with it but is it I think  her importance is beginning to be understood and   recognized more widely but it has been a struggle  certainly well you've certainly helped it you've   certainly helped it she's become she's becoming  she's become a legend she will always be known I   think your book will well put her in the pantheon  of of women that that made a difference that   did something that mattered that exceeded all  expectations and just showed what some courage   and some determination and I'm reminded of  that famous line from a couple of years ago   and still she persisted Virginia Hall persisted  and persisted and I think the fact that we had   the the ambulance jacket arrived late this evening  is it just icing on the cake of this presentation   so thank you very much for bringing that in the  fact that you rescued it from God knows what what   heap of used clothing it it was going to go into  is fabulous it has her name embroidered inside   in Virginia being Virginia she had it made by  a tailor in Paris I mean she was a an elegant   woman and inside it it names it was actually  an English tailor but working in Paris and it   says ma'am Iselle Hall inside the pocket which  is sort of thrilling and the cat also has her   initials in it and it's a serious thing she loved  to dress well when she could and even when she was   blowing up those bridges in LA her her Maki her  Makassar who were working with her one of them   would sometimes be sent off to buy a new bottle  of expensive French scent and that she was noted   noted for for those little touches that often she  couldn't wash maybe that's why she was taking on   the perfume because there was no running water  but she she did care about how she looked even   when she was waging battle there was something  always stylish about her woman yeah absolutely anyone who asks yes please go to the microphone thank you so much for this evening I would take  this over the world series any night fascinating   I like to think women have come a long way since  this time so I'm just wondering what the analogous   or the comparison is to what that would look like  the impact that time her gender and everything   she did what does that look like today right we  hear all of this and I can't help but hear it   with the ears and the understanding of what women  can do today and I'm trying to draw the corollary   of what what she did then looks like even today  if you can even draw it well I mean I think you   have to remember that that even today the idea  of women being on the frontline in combat is   there still are controversy raging about that this  was 80 years ago and there she was commanding men   behind enemy lines it is just extraordinary and  she was a bit of a one-off and when she went in   to the field for SOE no other women were sent for  a year because actually really they didn't expect   her to survive and then she was still alive after  a year they thought oh actually maybe we'll we'll   try some more women because this one seems to be  quite good is it and ultimately sent in women to   the most dangerous parts of France of woman and  a lot of those women did not survive many of   them they were proportionately far more female  casualties than male in SOE because they were   often given the most dangerous jobs the radio  operating in the most dangerous parts of France   so but I think more was a liberation for for women  I mean this wouldn't have happened with Virginia   without war ironically war means that you don't  have the luxury of exploiting people like Virginia   anymore you have to just find anyone who will do  the job and there she was and then what happened   was that when peace came peace imprisoned her  again really it's doctor having those chances   and I think you know the the late 40s the 50s  were very conservative times for Britain it was   all about domesticity salafi women it's all about  domesticity and things it closed again for her I   think now she would be astonished and I hopefully  please that there is in fact a female director of   the first line of CIA I wonder I'd love to know  what Virginia would would think about that I I'm   not sure if she would have described herself  as a feminist but I think because that wasn't   really a term then but I think what she just  wanted was it to be recognized and respected   that women could do just as extraordinary things  as men and she was determined to prove that and   everyone who saw what she did said yeah she's  proved it okay don't you think the war allowed   this is opening for women to step forward you  know in a lot of areas that they had not been   allowed into before partly because the men were  gone partly because they needed they needed the   hands on the they needed that to produce more  machinery they needed the women that came to   Washington DC and did code breaking they didn't  know they could do code breaking because they   would never be allowed except for the war they  turned out to be fabulously successful and and   stayed in it I think women just stepped forward  in world war two when the men stepped over to   do the war and they all discovered on various  levels not on Virginia Hall's level because she   was she was untouchable but they all found  something inside that they probably didn't   even know is there I think that's right I think  it was a very liberating time when some women   talk about the war despite all the suffering  and the hardships and the the grief of it has   been the most exciting fulfilling time of their  lives certainly that was the case for Virginia   in without any - - and the reason why it's  called a woman of no importance is because   that's how she was treated before the war and  after the war and yet of course during the war   she proved how incredibly important she was  and another women did - in many different ways she answered my question I wanted to know about  the title right okay so thanks so that that's   why yeah thank you one of the one of the things  that was most interesting to me in reading the   book because I had first been introduced to  Virginia Hall because of her role in helping   to save the Jews during the war and in your book  that that obviously is a somatic but it's so much   more that she did and I'm just curious it was  that you know how did those twin themes going   through because obviously the entire country  was being saved at the taint same time that   many of those people know in the O'Dwyer where  were you know hiding the Jews and and saving   them and so you know I'm just curious about you  know because there were many undercurrents going   on simultaneously you're right there were many  undercurrents and and you're right to point out   about the open to our this plateau is it there's a  village called devotion porcelain your and that's   the only french village to receive the the honor  of being a righteous amongst the nations because   up on that plateau it's a Protestant stronghold  it's the most extraordinary urge you to go has his   bizarre rather endearing atmosphere they this  Protestant these Protestants have gone in the   Dragunov several centuries beforehand where the  Catholics were persecuting the Protestants they'd   gone up to this plateau to escape that persecution  so when the Second World War started with all the   dangers facing Jews they took in an estimated  3,000 Jews up there hid them in farmhouses every   single building basically was hiding Jews and they  think it was about 3,000 and saved them from being   sent to the camps so that that plaster does have  this extraordinary and special atmosphere and I   think that was another reason to that it was seen  as very strategic for Virginia to go there whether   she had any idea exactly what was going on until  she arrived and realized that a lot of children so   many children were sent there to to be saved they  couldn't save all of them but they saved most of   them it that the story of that plateau is really  quite extraordinary and I think you know for for   me I think that's that's just a really interesting  piece of all this and particularly because you   know as we're talking about her becoming better  known it's sort of like she's she's had this   this persona in France as you say and this you  know the knowledge there of the work that she   did and saving the the Jews and particularly  the children and now we're getting to know you   know so much more about everything else she did  so I think it's Fitz remarkable and I think in   you know in terms of the the the artifacts that  we we brought this evening you know for for us   it's also quite interesting because she did live  a very private life and my husband and I have been   in in Barnesville for more than 30 years now and  you know until these more recent books have come   out most of the people in town never knew she  was there and or didn't know her history they   knew her husband was much more you know open in  gregarious and and mixing with people but I think   you know it's just these hidden stories and you  know and as you say you always ask yourself is   it is it more hidden because it was a woman then  because it was a man or is it just because this   was in her nature she knew she knew she survived  by by being able to she survives I mean one of the   things that she used to say the people asked well  why wouldn't you talk about what you did in the   war and she said some of my friends talked and  I saw what happened to them I mean to too many   people that she had loved lost their lives because  they had talked just been tiny bit careless during   the war I think it was so ingrained in her not  to speak about what she did but I also think that   there was a theme in people who fought in the war  and it's often those who did the most who talked   the least about her afterwards and she didn't  she didn't want glory I don't think she wanted   that so I think she simply wanted respect and I  think that was the problem with the CIA was that   that's what she didn't get there thank you for  writing it thank you and he either quit oh go on   come on um so I'm doing a project about reading  your heart and I was wondering why did she start   writing books about amazing woman in the world  war and how to get enough information to write   like a whole book about her well I started writing  about amazing women in the world war two because   there are these extraordinary stories and a lot  of people just don't know them like me I didn't   know about Clementine Churchill before I started  researching her nor did I know about Virginia Hall   but in both cases they really inspired me and they  inspire me now every every single day and I feel   that we don't really understand the war properly  until we understand what they did and we have many   lessons to learn from them such as resilience and  just that that desire to fight for what is right   you know truth freedom just as that kind of thing  and finding out about Virginia wasn't easy I can   tell you I mean it took three good years a lot  of 100-hour weeks really notifications' a lot of   traveling around France Britain coming over here  going to various places hair as well meeting her   wonderful niece he's still alive Melissa's in  Baltimore finding all those Pierre file papers   which was a very happy day when I found those  I also had the help of two former intelligence   officers which was good one in Britain helped me  deep declassify some papers which was very handy   that were very very useful so it took a long time  it's like a detective operation really and she had   lots and lots and lots of code names which made  it more difficult to so in the end what I did   was I had a big map of France on my wall and  I had little stickers and of her missions and   dates and her code names and tried to kind of  match them up fill the gaps as much as I could   and in the end I got there as sometimes happen  you know it was really frustrating so I thought   well I can't find out this thing I can't find  out this thing but mostly I got there in in the   I'm I'm really good as I did but it took a long  time lots of work but it was it was fun - okay   thank you so much all right Jonna Sonia thank  you so much for this amazing evening I leveraged   in your hall and her story and like John I was  like ah you know she's just so inspirational   and you've really done her amazing justice  I want us all to put our hands together

Channel: IntlSpyMuseum

Views: 39,339

Rating: 4.9215684 out of 5

Keywords: Virginia Hall, International Spy Museum, spy, Spy Museum, spies, Sonia Purnell, Jonna Mendez, Jonna, Mendez, espionage, Virginia, Hall, World War II, WWII, Moscow Rules

Id: yQSCJNsRJMQ

Length: 70min 22sec (4222 seconds)

Published: Mon Nov 18 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/vulcan_on_earth]

Virginia Hall was a trailblazing spy. She didn’t let a hunting accident which robbed her of a leg slow her down. A Baltimorean with an interest in foreign languages and the gumption to overcome obstacles both physical and cultural, Hall operated courageously behind enemy lines in occupied France during World War II.

She coordinated French Resistance efforts and put her life on the line first as an agent for the English Special Operations Executive and then with the US Office of Strategic Services.

Award-winning author Sonia Purnell’s new book A Woman of No Importance: The Untold Story of the American Spy Who Helped Win World War II takes a fresh look at Hall’s espionage activities and how they changed the course of the conflict. And who better to interview Purnell about Virginia Hall than another trailblazing spy: Jonna Mendez, former CIA chief of disguise and co-author of Moscow Rules.

[u/neverdoneneverready]

The book was incredible.