Using Effects Pedals With Multi Channel Guitar Amps [And A Bit On FX Loops] – That Pedal Show

hey guys welcome to that petal show and today were talking about using effects pedals with multi-channel amplifiers [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] very nice that sounds amazing that's awesome that sounds absolutely amazing hey guys today down here Mik here hello okay right interesting share today we haven't done this before no we haven't we been asked a lot for this we've hinted at it in some vc cues and some other shows before we get into it please subscribe if you haven't subscribed please do that okay right we're away we're just trying to remember to tell people to subscribe because it's really important yeah that'd do it so no it's hard to remember when there's all this finery of things happening right umm one amp today yeah normally you'll know if your regular view of that pedal show if you're not a regular viewer welcome well yeah welcome welcome to this world you'll feel warm and fuzzy here I hope yeah one M we're using one of my Mesa Lone Star's this is the 1 by 12 version yeah there used to be a head oh really I got 112 cab enclosure for it right just to make it like the you know ultimate portable thing sounds awesome yeah I'm used it for ages because I thought it had a fault and it didn't have a fault it was a cross between me storing it badly for a while and a bit of user error okay yeah okay seeing as I've mentioned it apparently the send in return on the effects loop the jacks can oxidize a little bit okay and the connection gets lost so unless you have a patch ly plugged in right when the effects loop is turned on okay so tip there for Lone Star users what I need to do is have it repaired properly right anyway it's pretty old it's good 15 years old I would so like a chassis of that amp and it was stored damp for two years okay that's boy in the bath anyway it's done glorious it is sounding magic and we're using this out because it's one of the only two channel amps that Dan and I own between us most of the amps we own our single channel amps mm-hmm or at least they are multi channel amps in a more vintage sense yes so if you think about something like a books AC 15 or AC 30 or Marshall plexi or very much yeah match person any fender tweed amp most fender tweed amps most Fender blackface amps most of those amps that you think are single channel are actually dual channels but they're not channel switching hmm right so in order to use the two channels you need to physically unplug or plug into the other one or use some sort of a B box hmm which is a whole other world which we're not getting into so it's apt for that we use the Mesa because Mesa was if not the first and I think they were the first but certainly among the very first companies to ever do a channel switching amp Wow yeah okay and yes yeah what was the core so why did they say right we need another channel in the amplifier yeah right so why have a channel switching amplifier why have a multi-channel channel switching amplifier because you either want an overdrive sound or a clean sound right so people are plugging in going I really like it here but I also like it here yeah wouldn't it be great if I could have that clean sound by came right after after we spent the last 20-something years of amplifier development trying to make it more distorted okay or realizing how brain it sounded when it was more distorted now what we would really like is the clean thing back again sure so yeah and it makes sense doesn't it and I had a quick look earlier because Dan and I as we said at the top of the show don't really use multi-channel amps no because this is our multi-channel amp yeah well we have if you have a really dynamic sensitive single tool amplifier what you can do with pedals is pretty special dynamic and sensitive singles how's it get in dirt [Music] grinder right so yeah so you know if for example I mean any gaps are used but the highlights a really great example massive loud clean Headroom and but it still has a lot of character and plucking gain stages into that you know brings to guess the the most out of the pedals look at about the fire and then you know you with the two rock c'mere the matchless we've found amplifies that we both really connect with personally and so we've tailored the pedals that we use yeah with those amplifiers but the the multi-channel thing you know it's like the overdrive channel on this sounds sounds glorious but you know there are pros and cons either way there is definitely has some things too and we discussed there are some huge questions there you know lots of people argue till they're blue in the face about whether amp distortion sounds better than pedal distortion and all that that's for the birds because it's really a it's a personal preference and you know clearly some sounds are amp distortion and sounds pedals let's not forget that when channel switching amps were invented none of this was available yeah yeah yeah so in the mid late 70s or whenever it was and really throughout pretty much the whole of the 80's and most of the 90s there weren't that many pedals around sure there was a few boss / drives there was Maxon there was Dodd there was you know the classic brands but there wasn't this plethora of pedals that are available now so it was absolutely entirely sensible to get a multi-channel channel switching versatile amplifier so you get really awesome distortion made with valves yeah or not if you didn't have a valve amp but but times moved on there are lots of overdrive pedals and other pedals available now so what happens when you take your pedalboard and you stick it in to a multi-channel amp it's actually a two channel amp hmm what happens when you go from that clean channel to an overdrive channel what you need to look out for what are the opportunities for you and what are the pitfalls alright great Chris is interesting for us because it's it used to be my world sure and isn't really anymore so it will be interesting to walk through it okay well let's have listened to the the amp then so listen listen to the clean Channel and the daily Channel yeah and just so we get a reference point cool so here's the clean Channel [Music] I'm Matt Sam reverb reverb qualia we might turn that down in a bit this guitar needs a set up damn bit of fret buzz okay no worries um and here's the dirty channel his that wasn't telling [Music] [Applause] [Music] and the clean Channel [Music] you same with some humbuckers [Music] [Music] that's pretty righteous quite you know how many guitars do we play three guitars I am just gonna turn the reverb down a little bit okay um massive range of sounds and we haven't even touched the amp it's set in the game channel it's set to kind of gain enough right it will go a bit gain in there in fact it will go quite a lot gain you than that but I think that's enough overdrive isn't it I think for what we're gonna do yeah yeah yeah yeah so this is and when you get to like them the multi channel like the three shell amplifiers you're setting different levels of gain so if you wanted that sound but then another ones that's because what's that there's another mess abou yep it does the there've been lots over the years right yeah so the mark Falls and mark fives have lots and lots of extra gain rectifiers quite often the later ones with three Channel in fact I think they were all either three mode or three Channel right and then on on through the on through the years P V 6505 you know so many amps are multi-channel channel switching amps Marshalls whatever they're mid-range 1500 watt is now I guess it's worth pointing out the difference between a multi-channel amplifier and an amplifier that puts like another gain stage in yeah off of the the normal channel so like an app like this they're completely separate preamps two separate channels yeah so so then perhaps a voice differently yeah you know this is feeling the same power section yeah as opposed to you know it's like a you you know some professors that has a switchable boost yeah on it that just puts another like a gain stage into the same preamp yeah this has that actually it has a switch on the front panel there where you can switch in an extra bit of oh cool extra half a valve I'm guessing it is right which is usually the way it works in Apps Victor do that as well where you go from like one mode to another mode and what's doing exactly what you just said switching another but these are two entirely separate channels cool okay yeah so what are the pitfalls what are things to look out for when we're doing it well why don't we just start by demonstrating some stuff again we're gonna run through boost overdrive delay and reverb and a little bit about modulation and then we're gonna talk a little bit about effects loops which will come up in that discussion okay shall we start with boost yes do it let's do it um some of this information will not be in any way new to you some of it might be so um however that shakes down okay what we've gotten here is the metropolis super boost which is an FPT based booster with something similar to a Marshall tone stack in it nice it is designed as a clean boost so if we stay on the clean Channel okay [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] that is absolutely gorgeous beautiful all of the getting up and sitting down was about this is going to be the the central topic of our whole discussion was about gain yeah so the clean channel of the Lone Star was set kind of on the edge of the point where when you push it with the level in the front it starts to overdrive a bit okay so what you heard was a moderate increase in volume but not a huge increase in volume when we turned the boost on I then turn the gain down in the amp so it's cleaner right does the master volume up and then what happens is the boost makes a much bigger difference sure so the air isn't limiting yeah so you know as you would expect it's called a boost you step on it it gets louder right now watch what happens when we do exactly the same thing in the gain channel [Music] [Music] delicious sounds great mmm sounds really great but doesn't get much louder right and it's an increasing game yeah so it even though obviously said Chris and get in the clean channel but that went from driver to a bit more fuzzy feeling under the fingers yeah and you just feel the the app squashing into it yeah just have a quick play that with humbuckers a minute on the clean channel this will probably a bit i popping but we'll see [Music] substantial according to the DB meter somewhere between 8 and 10 right lift well at that level let's try that in the overdrive channel [Music] still a lift yeah but not as much lift right now what happens if you turn the gain up right in the air so this is getting it really over [Music] [Music] I mean this this is going to be really obvious to a lot of people hmm but the boost into the clean Channel makes much louder mm-hmm and the boost into the overdrive channel doesn't make you much louder so just makes it thicker yeah so there you are with your boost on your pedal board and you're saying well ah in this channel it really works well in this channel it really doesn't work well that all compounds when we get to overdrive yeah yeah sure it's ruthlessness of that yep okay so we have [Music] you [Music] so you heard the dnm drive go from or at least the amp go from super clean and spanky to really overdressed have a bit more that day [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] we'll do exactly the same thing into the overdrive channel [Music] [Music] really hard to control us so much gain so much yeah yeah yeah yeah and again that's what the amp not set massively Gainey everyone just increased the app skating a bit more on a boy so let's just try that I've turned the I've made the preamp thicker okay let's go a little switch on it and turn the gain up okay now the game channel sounds like this [Music] like and control of it yeah yeah there is I have read lots of comments we've read lots of comments in the TPS comment listing in YouTube where people can be surprised when they when the pedal doesn't do exactly the same thing from one channel to the other yeah and of course that's equally applicable to different amps just white dan and I are always talking about the fact that you talk about how a pedal sounds but it's really doesn't make any sense unless you're talking about what you're using it with exactly I think there's a really interesting point there you know behind all the debate about whether valve overdrive is better or whether amp channels are better than pedals you know just try and put all that to one side and if it helps you get your head around it maybe think about this the gain channel in your amp like another pedal yeah absolutely because that's you know it'll become more apparent later when we start talking about where that channel sits as far as the other effects is concerned because at the moment we're playing things straight into the front but that preamp then it's plugged into the power amp phone so it's another gain stage as the other fails produces thus far I gain stages so yeah when I first started setting up rigs for people and looking at doing you know effects in the loop and all that sort of stuff just thinking about the preamp just as another pedal ya solves all those issues about routing and stuff for me yeah and if that offends you as a valve amp overdrive die hard think about it as another lovely valve preamp there you go yeah yeah yeah so before we move on because that's going to be the next topic of discussion about effects loops and delay and reverb and all of that so before we do that I think probably the useful kind of summary of that section is instead of saying ah my overdrive pedal that I really love in the clean channel of my amp I really don't like it into the dirty channel I think that just provides a great opportunity to just treat the dirty channel differently and do something else it has to be it is in the dirty check yeah because it's it it reacts so differently yeah so you you know if you're going to use the dirty channel and you want to boost it you've got to think differently about it than the way you boost your clean channel yeah I mean let's just do that for a second if you want to know more about this a couple of weeks ago we did a show pretty much entirely on boosts yeah and we talked about boosts and how they work with OverDrive's and how they work with gaining amps and clean amps and all the rest so there's a lot more information there but just to make the point what we want to do is juice up our overdrive channel right yep so I'm just going to play this with some humbuckers into a fairly gain sound and you'll get to hear what the the overdrive channel of the amp sounds like [Music] and as we proved earlier if we try and put the dnm drive into that it's just going to be uncontrollable [Music] I'm not great so let's use the boost instead yeah [Music] [Music] [Music] because it's not creating much gain it's just a level boost yeah it's pushing the amp and not not cloaking everything in but what we can do as well because there's EQ on here yeah you know perfect example of where like things like shabu stirs are so good with it stay like that so if we just dial down the bass a little bit yeah this is the bass that's the bottom and yes it yeah sure [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Laughter] [Music] [Music] great so it doesn't get you know it just tightens those that you know up a little bit because they're so with the app is limiting so much already that you know trying to put bottom in frequency since that does ten to ten things to mush so you know a good thing to if you're looking to seduce that the dirty channel things like a booster with EQ or trail booster or a tube screamer something that that shapes the bottom a lawn lawn is a great one for ya a channel check out check out the video I did a few weeks ago with Lee Malia from Bring Me The Horizon jcm800 just cranked to the heavens and then he kicks the clone in and it's heavenly just just tightens it in focus yes it yep and in that respect you know then you're thinking about it not everyone wants to carry around a giant board but you know it might be that you've got a couple overdrive pedals that worked really great in the clean Channel yeah and you've got a couple boosts and other little shapers that work better showing you overdrive and it's almost like you've got two amps at that point yeah yeah definitely alright let's move on to reverb and delay then because this is I think where it gets really chewy for most people dan and I use fairly high headroom amps and we put everything in the front of the amp because the reverb and delay in that chain of events is happening after the overdrive right yep because the overdrive is here in the DM Drive and the reverb and delay is happening after in the chain before it hits a relatively clean amp yes the problem you encounter when you go to the dirty channel of the amp you're essentially taking your overdrive and you're putting it after the delay in the reverb yeah which can be a great sound but it's not traditionally considered to be a nice I mean all these adjectives don't really work but there's a there's a massive tonal difference if you have that if you have your auto sound and then you put your degree of underlay on after it you retain the essence of your overdrive sound and that the reverb ins I sort of sit on top the other way around it's a whole different thing yeah a whole other cool thing but not yeah yeah perhaps what everyone's going for sure should we have a little listen to that okay yeah yeah absolutely so if we have listened to the so got the colada d'Alene reverb and this is going into the front of the amplifier [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] really beautiful sounds lovely yeah lovely okay so we hit the overdrive Channel yep [Music] [Applause] [Music] so now that's a cool sound yeah that Steven Wilson does like that he puts everything in the front of his overdrive but what I'm gonna do now is I'm going to move the delay and reverb after the preamp ok which means in the effects loop exactly exactly so now the guitar is going into the amplify it's hitting the preamp it's coming back out is hitting the collider and then out of the collider back to the power amplifier [Music] [Applause] [Music] so yeah there we've got the delay in the reverb after the overdrive and the amp is creating the overdrive yes just for fun yes let's now make the dnm drive create the overdrive yes and we'll put the will put the reverb and delay in the loop and not in the loop and what okay watch it not make a massive amount of difference yeah yeah great I definitely hopefully great idea so here is the so now we have everything going into the front of the amplifier and where you instead of using the amps overdrive we're now using the DM drive for the for the overdrive yeah sure [Music] [Music] [Music] you what same thing with the delight now in the lid [Music] [Music] so the the when it's in the loop it still has more Headroom than the preamp that's not the difference that we heard no yeah it's yeah the differences are much more slight and now the big the differentiator is what level your loop is running out yeah right and I think the return on that loop is set relative is slightly above unity right okay because there was more obvious effect with the loop with the loop okay so I think you know as we mentioned earlier an effects loop in an amp is driven and recovered using a circuit of some description that remembers amplification and every act can be different would requires driving anyway and this one uses a valve to do that so you can then affect the level hopefully that is a fairly simple but quick demonstration of why Dan and I don't really use effects loops mm-hmm because we use clean amps and they're not really required because you're hitting your overdrive is coming from a pedal it's hitting the delay and reverb and hitting the front of an amp that's set pretty clean yeah a little bit of overdrive can be quite a nice thing but that's a whole other world yeah the minute you go to using any gain in the AM you kind of need an effects yeah you've got if you don't want that shoegaze e that particular driving in drive after reverb delay sound you've got to really think about if that's what you want then you've yeah yeah and just just the hammer that point home in apologies if this is over simplistic but just think about it in terms of signal chain overdrive delay and reverb right over dry first delay reverb verb second and by using the dirty channel in your amp all you're doing is you're taking the overdrive putting it after the delay in the reverb yeah it's just like exactly the same as if you were to order it that way on your pedal board yeah and that is the source of so much confusion for so many people hmm yes great that's a great example work tonight yeah really good affects loops we need to do a whole show on effects loop because it's complicated this there's so many different options there's so many different designs there's some really good ones and there's some quite poor ones yeah it's a bit like saying overdrive pedal isn't it it can be done in so many different ways and some of the things that it throws up so line-level right we got the pre app and that's sending the signals of the pedal and the signal from a preamp is high so things like analog delay is meant for an instrument level but it's not designed to take a line level input right it's a massive topic and we should come back to it because all effects loops as Dan suggested are definitely not created equal hmm what are the takeaways if you find your effects sound weak effects loop needs more level right and some like this amp have helpfully have a level control this is a very good loop in this amplifier it's exceptional but most things but we do this Marshall 1987 ex that I'm pointing to on my right hand side here has one of the worst effects loops I've ever heard that does actually have a level switch again plus 4 and minus 10 which you might recognize as professional and consumer level line right and some amps don't have any level control at all right so if your pedals are too loud or not loud enough you've got to do other things to make that work in your in your effects loop most a torrents these days our instrument level and it kind of works right but then you run 40 feet of cable and you've got a bunch of true-bypass pedals and then you need a buffer and it's a whole other thing sure that we should we should come back to yeah sure so let's that listen to the analog delay into the dirty channel but we'll put the in the dead channel before and then after as well okay yeah so it's gonna go into the front of the dirty channel and then sit in the effects loop yeah yeah yeah okay so 30 tell please sir ready yep [Music] so one of those the delay was much louder because you got on instrument level here it's actually folk normally or quite often with a line level that an analog delay won't handle line level you just sound distorted and that's the common problem that a lot of people have when you switch from one channel to the other mm-hmm the level of your delays and reverbs can jump massively because of that because they receive more signal yeah exactly exactly cool ways around that um this should be in the loop show but a lot of delays and reverbs will have a mix yeah knob where you can mix the dry signal and the wet signal run a lower mix mm-hmm and some also have instrument and line level actually on the pedals themselves yeah if you've got a loop that doesn't you know give the option you can set up there yeah yeah but it is it's a yeah that'll be it that'll be an interesting show that yeah definitely will just cringe all the way through it okay um modulation then mm-hmm we got the rig befallen here that has a phaser and a chorus in it now it's really interesting because you know I don't know if it's exactly split but there's a lot of people who prefer their modulation before the gain stages a lot of people who prefer it after the game stage so it's about finding a modulation that will work you know if you a 2-channel amp guy finding one that'll work for both unless of course you just want it in the front you know a la Van Halen yep Robin Trower likes his unified before his overdrive right so what we can do we're gonna hear it before and after the amps overdrive but absolutely yeah let's do that so if you don't have one I will actually I'm not changing guitars again kinda just I'm a press with your consistency in changing guitars well to all friends of that peddle show who moan that we don't switch between single coils and humbuckers enough I'm trying to be in the game we Genk you're doing much better minor and quite after war cool right you go yep [Music] [Applause] [Music] so we heard it there in the clean channel before the prehab and after the preamp so in the Louvin in the front basically the same very marginal difference Syria so now if we go back to [Music] [Music] [Music] quite a different response in the I could hear you know much more pronounced top ending the phase in one of their yeah in one of the options yeah the it's really funny in the when it goes to in front of the amplifier you hear the chorus more when it goes into the loop the phaser sister stand out really cool just get a bit more depth on the chorus then let's see let's see if that [Music] [Music] [Music] with both call the the big advise that we have is the loop on this amplifier right because like normally well it's just no wait quite often because the the level send is so high especially with analog effects it hits them so hard but the clever thing with this app is that you actually able to pull that back down yeah too low and they recover it yeah you know but you hit but again so what we're hearing there is the difference in the gain staging yeah well the game saves you before or after that's all it is isn't it yes again we were at the risk of repeating things all of those debates about whether amp distortion sounds better than pedal distortion and all of that is is not the question the question is signal chain yeah and whether you like your effects before or after overdrive yeah and that's what the effects loop brings you that those are the issues you face when you use a 2-channel amp because all your pedals here at the front into the clean channel everything is going into clean your delays and reverbs remain after overdrive because all the over drives on the board you switch to the dirty channel all of a sudden all your delays and reverbs are before ya overdrive unless you put them in the effects loop not quite sure why we've been struggling with it for so long done because it is that simple isn't it it is it is the I tell you is droning because if the black hole of the effects loop yeah because there's you know they're so vastly different yeah when the designs of stuff and you know this with Grant was at that that's great anything David Freeman puts a yeah effects looping is great but there's some ones that you that you know you're gonna have any issues like this times yeah Lots you will struggle yeah I think the opportunity here for anyone struggling with this is to just view the overdrive channel of your amp as another pedal as another amp or another pedal yeah or your or if you're predominantly using the gain channel of your you don't really use the clean channel very much you know just view the other one as a whole almost like a whole other amp yeah right and think about it in those terms so that you can apply effects likewise and maybe just accept the fact that your dnm drive doesn't sound great into a heavily distorted gained app in your opinion it works for some people but in your opinion and go what okay I need to shape this in another way maybe I can use something else too to do that hmmm I think the reason I stopped using to channel amps was because I just found I could get everything I needed off the board yeah and maybe that the overdrive channel in the amp itself I preferred something that I could get from a pedal yeah or it was more switching or sometime say whatever I'm similar I never found I found apps that had great clean channels of a not great overdrive channels and then vice versa I never found the perfect urination but then when I discovered you know AC 30s and things I found that like get exactly what I was after with the curved amplifier but the other thing is when I was you know played around with putting things and loops I found that I liked the way that the first game stage of a plant amplifier you added us added a little bit more warmth yes and sort of integrated things a little bit more closer than things going directly into the power stage an amplifier yeah you know but some people loved that some people loved that really HiFi type thing you know if you know but for me I really loved that for the game stage does the first game staging to clean up to everything yeah yeah it's about reframing debate isn't it yeah from what is better to what's going to work for me and can I understand why it's going to work for me sure in the great traditions of TPS no answers only better questions right very good very good one last thing to say on channel switching amplifiers we won't demonstrate it doesn't really need demonstrating is sometimes in your amp when you switch the channel it can flip the phase so in in the clean channel you're in this phase and in the overdrive channel you're in this phase mm-hmm if you're running wet dry and you are using two amps and you switch channels that's going to cause you a massive problem yes because all of a sudden your amps are going to be out of phase so just bear that in mind for anyone running two amps herbs or wet/dry if indeed your amp does flip the phase when you change channels but if somebody look out for very good point these guys have you enjoyed that please don't forget to subscribe if you haven't subscribed also a massive thank you to everyone that's gone to that pedal show store calm and grab t-shirts and pencils and hats and string strings and mugs pedals and t-shirts all they're also our preferred retailers in the UK in Europe is Anders's music of Guildford and Surrey and in Australia pedal Empire of Brisbane Queensland and if any of these things look at R active to you and you decide to check out those guys or check out the links in the description below and that helps us fund the show yes click the links perfect geez guys I have a great week for see you soon bye you [Applause] [Music] [Applause]

Channel: That Pedal Show

Views: 82,356

Keywords: Guitar effects pedals, effect pedals, two channel amps and pedals, pedals with two channel amps, effects loop, guitar amp effects loop, Metropoulos Boost, D&M Drive, Chorus in effects loop, Jam Pedals Ripply fall, Source Audio Collider demo, how to use effects loop, pedals into overdrive channel, Mesa Lone Star demo, Mesa Boogie Lone Star classic, guitar amps, electric guitar

Id: K-YbjgNcMQ4

Length: 49min 20sec (2960 seconds)

Published: Sun Feb 23 2020