Urban Air Mobility Noise Working Group Industry Panel on “Perspectives of Noise"

thank you okay uh welcome back to uh the UAM noise working group meeting um very happy to have with us uh this next uh panel session with a number of uh great panelists representing the industry both in the U.S and uh and outside the country uh just briefly as we'll go through uh our panelists are uh Ben Goldman from Archer Jeremy Bain from Joby yahia Ishmael from supernal and then online we have till heinemann from lilliam and JD Terry from Textron e-aviation and so we'll be hearing from those folks in in just a few moments uh if you recall the way this is going to be structured is we will have a opening remarks about five to ten minutes from each of the panelists and then go into a moderated q a session in that q a session we have solicited a number of questions from each of the four subgroups and those will be the uh questions that will be asked of the panel each panelist will be given an opportunity to answer those questions um and then following that we'll have a open q a session uh for about 30 minutes or thereabouts um I would like to uh just uh make it known that there may be some members of the press in attendance either here or virtually we will be recording this session for later viewing hopefully that'll be posted on the NASA YouTube channel and uh you may post your questions at any time but please if you do so direct them to a particular panelist so that each panelist can have an opportunity during that open q a session to uh to uh speak to a question directly towards them finally while we are taking questions all along uh online I will only ask the audience here to participate in the open q a if you do see something online that that is of interest to you please upvote it with a thumbs up and we'll be able to uh uh get the most relevant questions I asked and so I think that covers my opening remarks and uh without further Ado let's go ahead to uh Ben so Ben is here representing Archer Ben has had quite a uh interesting career first starting out after graduating from Purdue my alma mater and uh and then Penn State uh with a Bell Helicopter first and then a couple of years at Joby and then at uh Archer presently and uh that that speaks to a lot of experience in this area and we're very happy to have him his uh role at Archer is uh he's responsible for the design of the vehicle noise from both interior cabin perspective and from the external environment which I think is of most concern here and uh that directed toward the production vehicle which we'll hear about in a moment uh the the midnight and so without further Ado uh Ben if you would give us your presentation we'll cue that up yep yeah I don't know what to say mostly just what's in the slides okay all right I guess I'm speaking to it so there's been a lot of video a lot of imagery put out about the vehicle in the last few months this is our production vehicle we are planning to certify uh 2024 uh we are intending to be the first company to commercialize evitel travel there's certainly a number of companies that are competing for that same timeline uh but uh in fact just this morning we announced a new route we've already announced our route in Newark but just this morning we announced that we are also establishing a report out of the Chicago hub uh next slide please so we are designing certifying manufacturing uh an electric vertical takeoff and Landing aircraft EV tall our mission is to unlock disguise and we are trying to reimagine how we live and spend time so uh we are trying to provide a transformative travel experience the bike this vehicle takes off and lands vertically it allows these operations to integrate more easily into cities uh certainly don't need runways in the same way that conventional takeoff and Landing needs uh the all-electric powertrain means we have fast charging capability uh lower direct operating costs maximizing utilization and of course safety based on redundancy uh both at batteries Motors and zero critical uh points of failure right so as I mentioned uh our Target timeline is airworthiness certification in 2024 and Commercial Ops in 2025. so as I mentioned a couple slides ago we are targeting safety that is our number one priority uh safety and Community Trust so no single points of failure we have a distributed electric propulsion system uh multiple redundant propellers multiple redundant Motors multiple redundant batteries all powering the systems uh quiet that's why we're here we are trying to integrate quite closely into communities obviously we're trying not to increase the uh the ambient levels based on these operations and during typical operation at 1500 2000 feet these vehicles will blend entirely into the background uh sustainability is is also a huge Target the ability to produce zero emission uh helps Advance Global decarbonization we're certainly not trying to add to a footprint that drives up that pollution and of course affordability is also key because if we're not able to provide something that's lower cost than what's already available there's no sense in transitioning so these electric powertrains allow for a reduced maintenance lower energy costs uh lower overall cost of operation so uh just evaluating the industry as a as it currently stands I don't remember the current count of how many companies are currently in the running it's is it 100 is it more than 100 maybe not many it's a lot um a lot of different ideas um certainly a number of them are being boiled down and there's certainly a number of common platforms that are being at least currently recognized as as high-level contenders when you filter that through in terms of available Capital looking at fixed-wing aircraft which allows for increased range lower lower noise higher speeds uh the ability to integrate into a you know Mobility market so looking at City centers as a focus and then pilot operation which is what is currently available through type certification that really boils down to just Archer and Joby so um the the business case uh we're looking for a four passenger vehicle uh typical 20 mile back-to-back missions uh certainly the the vehicle is capable of large longer ranges than that but a common Mission our standard mission is about 20 miles back to back uh we are targeting over a thousand pounds of available payload uh it is laser focused on certification so everything we are doing is you know trl8 and up we're we're not looking to design anything that uh you know the FAA is going to gawk at this is all what's already off the shelf um the the in-house development of a couple key enabling Technologies so um commercial off-the-shelf powertrain is not something that is currently suitable for for our power needs so we are developing our own powertrain systems but we're looking to bring a safe sustainable accessible aircraft to Market uh via an efficient path to certification um I think I mentioned all the key requirements already all right so uh we're looking at a data driven model uh we are using data modeling to predict the UAM demand that helps us inform uh locations obviously the design of the vehicle and the mission um so the sizeable market opportunity and 10 to 15 Mile routes is key ground transportation in those areas that we are targeting takes upwards of 60 to 90 minutes so that allows us to offer an incentive in terms of uh Time Savings um optimizing production aircraft uh it will allow us to provide these rapid back-to-back 20-mile missions with minimal charging time in between that enables us to keep profits up while you know minimizing downtime of the vehicle and again Lower direct operating costs in order for us to actually make a profit so uh widely announced we are we are partnering with United Airlines they are our Flagship customer at this point uh we entered an agreement with them two years ago 2021 so they they are offering a one and a half billion dollars in aircraft sales obviously pending the delivery of our vehicle through type certification um so enable we formed a joint EBT advisory committee to support those operations and that includes both the maintenance and operational standards um we've gotten some pre-delivery payments which is great it just indicates that Archer is confident in our uh in our progress and and how we're developing the aircraft and uh November we announced the first UAM routes uh that is the downtown Manhattan heliport to Newark route that I mentioned and just this morning so not uh included on the slide we've added Chicago to that list as well so commercial Ops I mentioned the 10 to 50 mile distance is our is our Target uh within you know pretty dense City centers where ground transport usually takes about 60 to 90 minutes uh early early markets are going to focus on utilizing existing and retrofitted infrastructure not trying to build out uh verto ports directly but use what's already there and then build out as as we can so highly congested cities New York La Miami obviously Chicago um and these routes will be a a trunk from airport to city center where we know there is a demand and thus a willingness to pay for those routes and then follow a branch route once we've established those hubs um all right so we are working our way through certification we started in 2018 uh we're making very good progress on that side so we are we are optimizing business uh midnight for a business case uh intending to type certify in 2024 the early operations from 2024 to 2028 will build up those operations based on as I said a trunk and a branch Hub and spoke however you want to call it um using existing helipads and and ports as they are currently available and then building out as uh you know the design and land use becomes available uh scaling up for manufacturing targeted about 2 000 Vehicles a year long term and then Mass Market looking at volume manufacturing High rate of operations uh certainly moving towards autonomy as that becomes available but starting out with a piloted aircraft as I mentioned and then continuing to to improve on the design I mean we say internally that you know this first vehicle will be our worst and then all the rest of them will get better from there so improving on the engines on the battery performance on the acoustics and that's all I got all right thank you Ben Brenda turning it over to you all right let's move on to our next panelist analyst which will be Jeremy Bain and Jeremy started out at Georgia Tech getting his master's there he stayed on for a few years as a research engineer he then moved on and consulted for a few years after that and he joined Joby in 2017. he now is involved in the design and Analysis of that vehicle Jeremy welcome and I will not take any more of your time so you can talk all right thank you very much all right so glad to be here this morning um Jeremy Bain I'm working with Joby for quite a while um really looking at trying to introduce this new technology to as many people as possible so we do have a nice lawyer uh disclaimer um different layers different groups but it's kind of funny um but yeah lawyer disclaimer um move on um so Joby you know is another one of these companies what makes us a little bit different is we're very vertically integrated we're trying to do almost everything ourselves um from the motors propellers airframe Electronics the batteries the battery packs we don't make the battery cells but make the battery packs almost everything we're trying to do ourselves so that's I was a little you know Big Challenge and that's part of why we have more than a thousand employees well more than a thousand now spread across you know various locations in California Washington DC and then uh Europe we have a growing group there so we're trying to do an app-based uh aerial aerial ride sharing where you can book it through our own app so we're going to try to develop it test it and then operate it ourselves so here's a nice uh below plate you can piloted aircraft four passengers vertical takeoff and Landing all-electric 150 mile range which we have demonstrated in flight test 200 miles per hour which again we've demonstrated in flight test this aircraft's more than 10 years in development and then last year we flew over ten thousand miles um there's a pretty neat animation on LinkedIn of all those flights a lot of flying circles in the sky some clockwise some counterclockwise some probably inspired by you know NASCAR race tracks but um we you know we flew our logo too but really just trying to fly as much as possible to prove out the aircraft its endurance you know make sure that the life cycle and the maintenance is reasonable all the parts can fly as much as we can I think so um so again in our Partnerships um almost all these companies are partnered with a automotive company which I think is great which really speaks to how we're trying to mass produce these aircraft in operations and numbers that you know company like we haven't built aircraft like this and these type of numbers since World War II and really that's where the automotive companies really come in with their supply chains and their Mass manufacturing capabilities our go-to Market strategy is Partnerships with both Delta and Uber so that you could book our aircraft through the Delta app or through the Uber app or you can book it through our own app but Partnerships with those companies help really revolute you know get you an early partnership and really help build up your volume operations we've been partnering with the U.S Air Force Through the agility Prime program that's been really wonderful provides us with great technical expertise testing and really a unique partnership to you know for our aircraft so again you know we do plan on having an app so go through our nice uh app and you know the first leg or the last leg might be an Uber or it might be you know another ride sharing and then you could book this through our own app or in select cities you might book through the Delta app or through the Uber app so we do have this is our acoustic slide that we share to non-technical audiences um so you know trying to get people some understanding of what noise levels means what does 60 DBA mean what is you know 80 DBA mean so in cruise at 500 meters over Flight 45 DBA which we've demonstrated takeoff and Landing operations at 100 meters away 65 DBA which again we've demonstrated um so that really tries to blend in with the environment really it's Quantum Leap difference from helicopters and then also in order to get mass production you have to have economics and so this is you know typical operating you know 25 mile flight closer to a hundred dollars in the next slide um so I did want to share a little bit some of our technical papers that we published um we've been trying to be more openness you know as we've gotten on so this is a fun little paper but we ended up for this paper we didn't have access labels so it's kind of hard to see what was actually going on but this is a cool wall of different blades that we tested so all these different geometries we tested we built ourselves we tested ourselves for Acoustics and for performance and really what we were looking for here is you know how low of Tipsy can you go what you know the difference in solidity so if you look on the far side there's a really skinny blade that obviously in order to get the required thrust had to rotate a lot faster and then there is a very large solidity blade which could spin a whole lot slower but you're at areas where you're didn't get the acoustic benefits that you really could get so you had to compromise between cruise and hover performance and Acoustics but obviously you know the blade we chose is pretty high solidity and it's a five blade design um so then last year at VFS we published uh actual flight test measure noise so this is a flyover at 95 and 100 knots and we did just at uh our remote Test Flight Facility we were able to obtain various other aircraft and we flew them all one after another at uh 1500 feet 100 knots and really it sort of gives you the feeling of what the aircraft means and what the noise levels means and how it feels and how here how you hear it so the that obviously is a very remote location so the background noise was pretty low although if you notice that the after like 20 seconds on one of our flights it went up that was because of a commercial airliner in the area which bothered me at first until I figured out why it was but going over to the Spectra you know the background noise is obviously very low here if you compare it to a more reasonable background of an urban environment like a cafe we've all been eating outside at restaurants and during cobit and so you know it's not an incredibly loud environment but you know there's people talking there's people moving around and when you compare our Spectra the over the overflight were below or at that level and it's very hard to hear our aircraft distinctly and then when you compare it with a helicopter it's obviously much more tonal it stands way out um and then now I think we'll try to play a video if we can so this is on YouTube but this is sort of just the flyover noise [Music] [Music] all right yeah so I mean that's flyover noise which is great um and that's why we're not as concerned to fly over noise because we've we think that's you know flies over a city um most people aren't going to hear it we're much more focused on takeoff and lightning noise I'm so pick a next slide or I think that's um we did have a paper uh by Alex at the VFS that really showed some of the design evolution of our aircraft this is a really cool picture I was glad we were able to make and show so in the center is this quarter scale model that flew in 2016 which you think back is actually a pretty long time ago and then on the other side the all-white aircraft is our first full-scale prototype aircraft that flew in 2017. and then on the side is our pre-production prototype which is started flying in 2019. we're still flying um every day pretty much and then I'll yesterday there was three presentations that mentioned our data um Alex posted or Austin showed some results of our computations comparing to the flyover noise and then you know Kyle and Mary showed some results of our data and some use of their data from the national campaign flight test I do highly recommend reading that paper and getting it it's available on the internet just everybody can get it but we're you know we showed not everything obviously we flew for a week there's a lot of data in that flight test and you know we're trying to be open but we're not showing everything but we're showing some real numb real numbers so here's here's a one Landing that was in the paper um just a ground Contour of La Max next line uh we also showed uh hover noise levels both in-ground effect and underground effect shown you know we're below 65 DBA at this is 350 feet but 100 meters is pretty darn close and then we do show some Spectra at 50 knots you can see you know at 50 knots you're a little more tonal because you're a little more like a helicopter because we're at like 40 tilt or even 40 50 tilt but still it's dramatically different from a helicopter um and that's really what we're trying to to focus on is more blending into the environment and our takeoff and Landing noise uh next slide um so future possible papers um right now we're in nfac um this was image was released um there are microphone test stands uh in there right now um so we're gonna gather uh performance loads and Acoustics at the impact and we're going to publish some of our validation data some other organizations will probably publish validation data too but we're not going to openly provide all the geometry to anybody who asked for it or you're not going to provide it openly to Academia for example but there are some organizations that will get access to data to validate our tools and trying to understand what the tools do well at and what they don't we showed flight test data the other day and a lot of questions about different noise sources so hopefully this test will help us understand better and then we do plan on publishing more about the national campaign and our validation efforts to try to show what the tools do well what the tools could be improved and really what we hope uh other organizations will develop Future tools and improve the tools um so I think that uh just another great picture of our aircraft um yeah thank you very much all right we'll move on to our next panel member yeah Ismail he did his PhD at Old Dominion he then did his post doc following that at Notre Dame after his time at Notre Dame he moved on to Boeing following Boeing he worked outside of the Aerospace industry working on a lot of Acoustics and vibration problems he also worked at Aurora flight sciences and he joins the colonel in 2020. so yeah yeah welcome to the panel thank you Brenda good to be here with you and they would be glad to share with you some of the supernal story um and from supernal as I mentioned first before we get into what is the where we are let us see what is the challenges we are facing now the could you good next slide please what is the ground the transportation challenges we have in some areas is very like LA area or Chicago probably New York City where it's very hard to move from one place to another especially in the during the congestion very traffic times and the the problem is getting no way is getting resolved in the near future and it's getting worse and worse so um Urban Air Mobility is one of the um solution for ground transportation challenges so luckily we we are living in a technology era where electrification in the automotive side automation and the big data and the ride sharing is everywhere around us which are very basic elements in Urban Air Mobility or Advanced Air mobility in general so several companies are racing to provide new Mobility Solutions and those are some of those companies so air Mobility is a key piece of this new reality we are facing helicopters as we all know is very loud it's not really a good solution and is not available for everyone very expensive to to use and they actually in fact the only 11 percent of the world population is using current uh like uh flowing on aircraft in 2018 so there is a very big opportunity for us to use air Mobility as in the market um to fill this Gap and there is a potential very potential high potential growth for the Advanced Air Mobility from now until 2014 40 that's what the [Music] I would say forecast very massive potential for that market so many companies of course are leading the efforts in this new era of Mobility and those are subset of the companies are working in urban or Advanced Air Mobility there is multiple use for Advanced Air Mobility many of us maybe think about Urban Air Mobility are just one use there is some other uses like Regional Air Mobility and the non-commercial services so average Transportation user is likely unaware of Advanced Air Mobility whenever I ride like I was upper or left driver and I ask people ask me what do you do I say like I'm working in the air Mobility he will be surprised because the more familiar with the ground transportation but still not familiar with the air Mobility so where what is the target for Urban Air Mobility or Advanced mobility of course Urban and Suburban communities where is the problem exists and the demand reliable efficient multimodal Transportation kind and they of course they couldn't the constraint the prospective users construed by the congestion and rising cost of living what are the perception largely unaware of as I mentioned the Advanced Air Mobility likely has never been inside a small aircraft frustrated with their limited Transportation options what does it mean for oems people cannot support what they don't understand so we need to educate the people and the people cannot understand what is not tangible so we need to show them what is the what is available and there is significant demand for Reliable efficient transportation so that was good the introduction before get into a supernal so supernal is part of a Hundai the mother company as you know Hyundai Kia and Genesis process like cost-effective high quality mass production of vehicles from the automotive industry and there is a at the same time diverse capabilities for Urban Air Mobility infrastructure and financing through Hyundai and the movies recently Hyundai acquired the Boston Dynamics and motion which is very important pieces in the Advanced Air Mobility solution so the result of these unique senses and capability is a full fully integrated Mobility solution provider that is well positioned to build Advanced Air Mobility Market so what is supernal what is the longer term supporter is making longer term commitment to advancing their mobility and these are the mission um for supernal and the what is supernal vision so when what is our entry into service the timeline 28 is our entry into service Target date despite the progress in the industry all companies will need a clear pathway for uh in infrastructure development which is vertices of course one of the verticals is a part of this infrastructure public awareness and acceptance especially in the noise polluting these communities so we have to have some sort of awareness and acceptance and Clarity on multi-jurisdictional governance and the coordination and the roadmap for multimodal integration how we will move the people from one point to another for the verti port within the urban community or Suburban cities so what is the supernal design pillars we have four design pillars safe quiet affordable and the passenger Center so these are the main design drivers we are building our vehicle based on those four pillars so of course it would require the building a whole ecosystem for Advanced Air Mobility which will seamlessly integrate with the cities starting from the vehicle going to the verteford hub and the modular ground transportation moving the people from one point to another point so in order to achieve this we have to continue engagement with partners and the stakeholders advancing their Mobility Market will require some sort of Engagement with The Regulators government agencies travel and tourism Industries Airport federal state local lawmakers Academia research institutions and of course other suppliers and the integrators so Focus now what is the focus now on addressing the needs of a diverse group of stakeholders there are a group of stakeholders um and they have some concern what is the concern of course funding is one big concern in the Advanced Air Mobility regulator our regulation in general public acceptance conflicting timelines roles and their responsibilities and customer demand so what is the value of proposition we are offering a mission free environment and we congestion we we can solve the congestion problem in some Urban environment in infrastructure costs and lost the time of the people moving to their commuting to their work or moving from point to point at the same time we the we are increasing the social prosperity of people by providing this alternative transportation system and the capacity in the network productivity of the people and of course economic value from the advanced and Mobility so lastly I would like to talk about the collaborative partnership which will enable to achieve these goals and so all this is very important to work together is a very big Challenge and without this collaborative partnership I think it will not be easy to get into the market whether it is the regulatory pathway like FAA like or yes we were talking about the regulation certification kind accessibility Advanced Technologies development affordability and the scalability so these are the goals which we try to achieve and that's all and thank you okay thank you yeah uh next turning our attention uh to uh our online panelists uh we'll uh uh introduce till heinemann from lilium till uh hopefully you can turn your camera on in a moment after I get through the introduction here studied mechanical engineering at erlangen University and was working in uh industrial fans for quite some time at the beginning of his career uh even as a postdoc uh then transitioning to a German power plant engineering Bureau and joining lilium in 2018 and at lilium uh he engages in a number of topics including uh commercial and certification to noise development plans technology or technical strategies design model development and validation experimental strategies and B B activities so with that until if you would come on camera and uh and give us your overview presentation yes hello can you see me I'm not sure we cannot see him from there but you can see him those that are joining uh we can see you through the teams and then we'll bring you on during the Q a so please continue that's fun yes um hello and greetings from Munich I'm very happy and honored to represent Lillian on this panel and I was just going to give you a very quick overview on our aircraft our company and our recent um our own General activities in terms of noise certification and noise emissions um can you go to the next slide yeah thanks as you see and many maybe some of you are familiar with the design of our aircraft this is a um a ducted fan distributed propulsion system that we see here of 30 propulsion units mounted on in the flaps of a main wing and the Canard wing and this gives us the advantage of reducing the drag quite a lot we can fly quite far and fast and with a low noise low noise profile which is especially advantages in Cruise mode to the passengers since you are shielding your noise a lot but also you're shielding it from the environment by the mounting of the engines on the upper side of the Wings um this will be available in five-seater and seven seater configurations um and of course fully electric and build accounts to a higher safety levels the um the configuration you see here in the picture is the cruise node meaning the engines Point backwards generating thrust to overcome the drag and the lift will be generated by the Wings by the main wing and the crown art Wing obviously when we're flying like this and we transition into landing the flaps with the engines are going to rotate downwards pointing the thrust towards the ground so we decelerate and come into a nice hovering flight where then the engine will be the aircraft is um it's hovering through the thrust of the engines and we take off and land vertically um can we go to the next slide please okay the business today is two parts both a design organizational production organization we are currently employing over 800 employees and most of them here in Munich and we've obtained over a billion dollars of funding listed on the NASDAQ and I think this is a recent figure 640 pre-ordered aircraft in the pipeline so far there are a few impressions of our company here um on the top left maybe most interestingly is our one of our demonstrator aircrafts flying peacefully in Spain I believe you see our production facilities and I think that's a picture from last year uh but this is in Munich on the lower left you see the um semi-anochoic testing facility for our for our engine system for a proportional system and um yes maybe let's move on and look a little bit towards flight testing exactly so I think only two three weeks ago we achieved 250 kilometers per hour and so top velocity with the demonstrator one of the demonstrator aircrafts the two that you see there on sending on the left hand side they are a bit more than a third the mass of the top certificate aircraft that we're designing and you will have noticed that they are very very similar in architecture and Design so those flight tests do give us a lot of information a lot of benefit to support our method development our tool development not only but of course also and with respect to our acoustics and to also support certification activities to know what we can do how uh how we do it to and to to improve our current design the aircraft um and maybe I hope this works you can play this video the lower right that some of you may have already found us on the internet 's going into transition next step is 100 feet into forward planes you see with the Tufts how the the main Wing attaches to this well the Canard a second let's still detached okay speed is good you can accelerate to 95 smoothly three two one beautiful line stable standby clear to proceed level off okay that's uh next slide please um yes talking about engine level like I said we have a lot of testing also on the individual ducted fence propulsion system which helps us to validate our numerical Source prediction tools as well as give input to flight prediction based on engine data which then again we can of course validate with the flight test data we have and um which gives us a very important piece of the puzzle next slide please um talking about certification with respect to noise we're inspiring to certify in 2025 and for noise we are categorizing um with the chapter 13 of the nx16 um we are quite far I would say with Esa and um in in the in the discussion in the process to define the conditions um so it's obviously chapter 13 is epnl in takeoff including Klein over flight and approach three distinctly defined conditions which uh we are deviating to a certain degree from and this is part of the process because of our worthiness our design is as you I've seen quite different from traditional tilt rotor aircraft so there is some aspects of the definition of the operations that we cannot do or that don't make sense for us to do so this is um part of the process right now to hopefully quite soon issue a so-called environmental special condition for our noise certification so this will describe the deviations from the standard chip to 13 process and publish that it will be available then any stakeholders publicly can give feedback and criticism and any inputs to that it will then come back to the other to um be worked over and when finalized that will be the basis for our certification plan which can be defined after this special condition process next slide please besides certification of course local stakeholders are super important for our operation um I've just been in a meeting this morning with German authorities from Melbourne some so the other environmental Ministry and the other Ministry of Transport who want to know like how how do we um apply and adapt noise regulation but uh burnouts since we are on a good path with the equivalent noise levels that exist as Urban um thresholds so this is obviously an important business criteria for us to derive the acceptable distances from flight paths the number of takeoffs and landings and and derive our unmissable design targets for noise as well while these are um averaged overall metrics we also have a strong focus on on the maximum noise events that obviously occur when you when you when you take off and go into a transition I think for all of our aircrafts and the tonality of course is also of Interest um next slide please that yes you may maybe read later and that concludes my my brief introduction of Lydia thank you very much very good uh tell we appreciate your participation here remotely and that came through uh just great and so yeah sorry I hope it worked out there's quite an echo I think that I hear on from my for my speakers I hope it goes all in the room though it was fine uh thank you just for like some people in the zoom call will maybe refer to it uh yeah it might be uh feedback on our mics so uh perhaps we can duck them um so on our next and uh final panelist is uh JD Terry representing uh Textron e-aviation uh and texture on e-aviation is uh got a lot going on in in various uh sectors it is part of Textron uh it's an initiative that was developed New Opportunities leveraging both fixed wing and broader expertise in the company and as you'll see uh in in JD's presentation there are a number of different aircraft the focus here is on the Nexus aircraft and JD is uh responsible for the engineering of that vehicle it's been with Textron for many years as you can see and began his career in avionics and was later chief engineer for CJ series and now his director or was most recently director of engineering for special missions and defense so uh JD uh welcome and uh we'll get your presentation up here in just a moment first as you're pulling that up I want to say that just with the panel reading the BIOS and and all the expertise there it's just it's just quite amazing to be a part of it when Royce asked me if I was interested in doing this of course you know I don't have a background in Acoustics um but he said you know what we want a background from a chief engineer and what the chief engineer is thinking on the multiple projects that are going on right now and with the Nexus and I was like sure I couldn't do that that sounds no problem um right now I'm in Wichita Kansas and I am in The Glass House what we call the glass house for those familiar with uh product lines pretty much every Jet and prop was designed out of this building and that is where we are now designing the Nexus go to the next slide so this is just kind of what we're going to go over that gives you uh just a a good picture of what the Nexus itself looks like and we can go to the the next page so right now I mean there's lots of conversation lots of different uh questions about how does paper stroll e-aviation and Nexus work together e-aviation is is a part of tech strong and then we have Nexus which is a family group that feeds into e-aviation and then put the stroll is a family group that feeds into e-aviation um we're going to go through a couple of the different aircraft that we have going right now we're looking at certifying and and how they pertain to noise as much as we can and with that we'll go to the the next slide so the first one to go through probably most people are familiar with the velas electro it is the only type certified electric aircraft in the world um it is yasa certified I have had a chance we actually have one of these in our Flying Club for text on Aviation right now um had a chance to be around it quite a bit and for those that haven't it is quite incredible how quiet the aircraft is from a forward perspective a side perspective and when it's flying over your head I'm just incredible what they've been able to do with this this also gives us an opportunity to take a look at people's girls Technologies and share information back and forth which there's been a lot of so pretty much everybody on my staff has been to pipa stroll and gone through everything that they have and vice versa we have them over here all the time too so so far the relationship has really started off with a a positive note we can go to the next slide this one really doesn't have to do with uh you know anything electric um as far as where we're going with that right now the panther is very similar to the Cessna TTX it would be also um it's considered a hot rod as you can see with the engine in it the i o 540 which is Lycoming which is also a texture on an aviation company or Textron company um but the thing that's pretty neat here and I've had my chance to get a get my hands on it and take a look about look at it is uh it also has a hybrid um technology that they've put together where it has both uh an electric and a gas engine to power it um there was a lot of stuff stuffed in the front of that but again I think it's the first of its kind out there um and and it worked I mean I was able to get my hands on it and take a look at it we'll go to the next one so the nuva is a it's a pretty slick aircraft too um again I've had my chance to get my hands on parts and pieces of this or the major structure of the airframe um we should have one all together and hopefully First Flight before the end of this year and what's kind of neat about this is they've taken the technology of the vellus the electric engines off of the vellus and and put them on the fuselage so there's eight of them and then it has a common rotax Pusher on it which can charge the batteries and it can also be used as a pusher and it's this thing right now is good for about a thousand pounds so depending on the altitude that you fly a thousand pounds is what you get out of it um and we uh all remote um so we are looking at full autonomy which everybody is but right now the plan is to fly these from the ground and most of this project is being done from the pipestral side of the house but again expertise as far as when they come up between Arrow controllability uh the acoustic side of it um some of those experts from the Textron Aviation side and the aviation side are helping in participating in this aircraft too we can go to the next slide so Nexus is the biggest piece or the the biggest thing that I have um so I have all aspects of it as far as the electrical Aero avionics um propulsion basically everything on it we have about 60 people right now that are working it um but what's what's unique about it is you know it started off with bell uh Bell infused DNA from a helicopter into it and then as it came over to the e-aviation side which the majority of participants on e-aviation are from Textron Aviation which are you know used to either the prop side of the house but most of us were jet people we were able to infuse the DNA of the uh the aircraft airplane into it we have cut our first parts for this we're planning on having um uh the majority of it together um by second quarter of next year planning on first flight test end of next year um the other thing that's kind of neat about it is right now uh you know which makes us a little bit unique where even on our jet side we still make you know almost 90 percent of all of our Parks in-house we're able to move pretty quickly on the build process so all of our major tooling is coming together it's an all-composite airframe of course we own our own autoclaves and and all the Technologies with scorpion in some of the beachcraft um aircraft that were done in the past um so we are moving quickly on this this aircraft next slide so a timeline for certification again these are notional this is what what we're thinking is going to happen so right now I just put this up because we have a Forefront battle as far as certification is concerned so the Villas Electro um is a light sport category that light sport category um is certified in iasa but for it to be certified in the U.S the way that the U.S rules are written for light sport it says one reciprocating engine in the regs and we are trying to work with The Regulators right now to get that change to one electric motor is also acceptable so we're hoping that that will happen sometime before the end of the year or into next year the panthera which we went through the gas version should be certified we're thinking end of 25 there's work to be done on there but we've already fielded I think it's like 15 or 20 of those between uh State side and overseas or in the Europe Rome so lots of data being collected there originally it started where you could buy it as a kit again it follows the exact same path as TTX but with their expertise and our expertise in certifying part 23 aircraft we feel that we can be able to handle that nuva is again it's it's kind of out there as far as yes we're going to be flying it before the end of the year but uh there will be lots of testing and just like everybody else we are waiting on regulation and trying to understand what the regulations are going to tell us um but again it is being designed from a certification side of the house or certification thought um and then again it will just have to wait to uh to see where regulations are going and then again on the Nexus we are more on the 2030 range but again everybody on my staff pretty much we probably have over 200 years of experience in aircraft certification so we believe the biggest hurdle for all the aircraft companies out there is going to be certification um I'm not saying it's an easy task to make something fly but it's not hard to make something fly especially with today's tools but to get it certified is is where all the rigor comes in and and the actual pain points as I tell most of my Engineers um you know of the entire build process 25 is the engineering to design the aircraft um there's another sliver in there that's you know figuring out how to get it built and then the majority or pretty much everything left after that is how do you certify it and what are the tools that you use to certify we can go to the next slide so I threw this in here just uh just a little bit about me and what I've done in the past uh when I first started off my career at Cessna of course I couldn't afford an airplane I wanted to get something just to get myself up in the air and I ended up going in with the four Engineers or actually three other engineers and myself to buy a Benson V8 M A gyrocopter again I don't know if it was the wisest decision that I've ever made but I the reason I bring it up is because there was a story behind it where when we first started flying it we didn't have a motor yet and we would fly it in what's called Kaiden um we had a basically a big rope about a 200 foot rope that would go to the front of it and we'd stake it down to the ground in the Kansas wind when it's windy enough you could get the rotor moving fast enough where it would pick enough pick up enough speed um where you could go up you know we would be above the power lines with it and as long as you kept tension on it you could keep flying and you could move left or right but I think the thing that I learned there early on that I didn't really even realize that I had had put something together until this project came along is even without an engine on this thing the propeller was still loud um and and I think that was just you know something that again I realized that back then I didn't think it'd ever matter and anywhere in my career because I was never going to work on anything with that big erodor on it um but it did and I know that there is a lot of expertise that have to go into being able to quiet a vehicle down especially in what we're doing right now so with that I'm just saying that for the group that's on the panel for NASA and putting this together what you're doing is is of huge consequence to everything that we're putting together here and and I just appreciate what you're doing I appreciate the expertise of on our side from Belle from Roy Snyder and then also you know Scott Sanborn is another name that I use all the time uh in my previous life and on the jet side and on the prop side but again just a shout out to them to say thank you and and to the rest of the panel this makes a difference in what you're doing and especially to the industry and to other you know bigger companies like texture on Aviation so thank you go to the next slide so one of the things that we have that's quite unique from everybody else is we have McCully um and then we also have Bell who have designed all their own rotors proposers and propellers so for us when we start talking about noise we get into their databases and what's kind of interesting about their databases is is they don't look at as much at noise in the past so some of that we're having to go back and verify what we believe our databases are telling us what our programs are telling us and in the end we're going to have to actually get out and do tests just like everybody else so we are an exempt from just like hey we have the secret formula for uh noise we don't um but again on the next slide I can show you what we're what we're doing which is very similar to everything that I'm seeing today so go to next slide so on the right is is the main thing that I want to hit from this slide um that's actually almost a uh the diameter of that I think each blade on there is almost 12 feet on this one we have a bigger stand that's coming together and then we actually have a smaller test stand that we've put together two and done testing on it and kind of the idea is we can take our known props that we have again since McCauley is a basically a stone strobe from the building I'm in they can go dust off any of their props that they have they can give a recommendation or a thought of hey here's what our prediction is on on how loud it's going to be and we go ahead and put it on the test article and then we can verify now again in a lot of the test methods that I've heard today even talked about I have even more questions than I've ever had for some of the experts in our group but I I would think that we would be utilizing a lot of those standards here pretty soon too and how we're taking our noise measurements the only other reason that I'm here is just to make sure that I I mentioned again that it's 60 DB I mean the thing is absolutely incredibly quiet in what it does that motor is what's turning our small propulsor right now and that's what we're using for collecting data through the entire transition and also on uh we have it running on a truck too so we can get side loads on it too a very standard practice and what a lot of the other people are doing go to the next slide so as as a chief engineer just kind of the things that I'm looking at or I'm having my people brief me on as far as you know the acoustic side of the house um these are the documents I won't read them off you all know them probably way more familiar than than I'll ever be with them um I would say that on the very last one Rd 77-27 uh in the last two years that hasn't we the FAA is not accepting that anymore or it doesn't seem like they're accepting it as much um and and for us that does run into you know cause some problems especially if we're doing DOD or something that's not Stateside where we are doing a modification and the aircraft can't come to us for testing um as it goes now you know in the last year before I took this job uh everything when we would do you know some type of bump or you know as I say a war off of the aircraft um I would say we just need to test we're going to have to test there's no way that we can show you know that it it's not that it's not needed with that we can go to the next page and this is just kind of the last slide it had an embedded video it was my fault that it doesn't work this was one of our Booms that we have currently on the Nexus and what we were looking at is the app propulsor which is a two-bladed prop um and how it how it went over um essentially the the boom itself and predicting what we thought our noise was going to be off of it with this we are again on our big propulsory test we will be making it where we can put multiple shapes on there to try and verify the predictions of what all of our databases are telling us and that's it I appreciate it thank you okay thank you uh JD um I'll just throw in there that I had the uh a pleasure to ride in that Bellis uh last year and it was uh quite a sporty aircraft so anybody gets an opportunity uh over here in Europe catch a ride so uh we will next move into our uh the next segment uh which is our moderated uh q a uh we have given uh each of the panelists uh a heads up on what these questions are uh just so that uh everyone can be prepared and all these questions as I mentioned earlier came uh up through the subgroups uh and some of them were in common uh in particular this first question that'll that'll be asking but Brenda and I will uh switch in on the questions these are intended again to be addressed by uh each of the five panelists so given uh the time if you could keep your uh your answers uh or your responses uh succinct that will help us to get through uh all the questions so with the first question it's uh combined from subgroups two three and four and uh has to do with uh sharing data so uh it's it's multi-faceted here and hopefully you can remember it all so first the question is are you willing to share acoustic data with certification authorities to support development of an appropriate noise certification basis for your prototype aircraft and part two of that if you can remember it all is what about sharing data uh with NASA or other research organizations for acoustic model validation development of test methods and understanding public perception so let's start with Ben our position is the same for both questions regarding certification authorities and Academia industry in general we are willing to share data uh obviously there are stipulations regarding the intellectual property sensitivity so we we would you know require assurances of anonymity of the data particularly if it's going to be used in a public forum and then uh uh you know for Joby you know we we have been sharing data with the FAA and obviously with NASA for the flight test and again with that in fact test we'll be sharing data with them we're not going to provide data for intellectual property reasons you know open Forum you know completely not sharing geometry for example for validation Studies by outside parties but we definitely are showing validation studies and want to continue showing that in public forums like this the from a supernal side we don't mind that I have to treat like what my colleague mentioned we don't mind to share the data but there was some reservation or a conservation like what my colleague from our church mentioned was some probatory IP kind um like especially if you if you are still in the early design phases you don't want to share like early design details but once you have started the like some sort of like pre-production vehicle you don't mind to share some of these data okay tail or JD how about JD sure um we're just like the others we're willing to share what makes sense what doesn't make sense we aren't going to share but both with Academia NASA other government agencies DOD we are definitely willing to share yes and um like I mentioned already we are we have been sharing quite a bit data with iasa mostly a little bit with FAA in the past as well and we're as long as things are confidential Etc we are also very open and happy to collaborate on on Research activities and such things all right I'll take the next question Steve gave me instructions to do the opposite of what he did so I'm going to start doing the exact same thing Steve did and ask a compound question but they're related so you folks are going to do just fine all right considering noise regulations typically require reporting of the noisiest configurations can you easily identify the aircraft flight profile producing the highest noise for your vehicle how many operating conditions I.E General flight conditions does your vehicle have and the last part are you interested in establishing the idea of standard operating conditions this is a combined question from subgroups three and four and I am now going to reverse the order so we're going to go the remote Palace first so let's start with till okay um yes we we do know um what's what's the loudest condition this is usually always a um as I mentioned the transition from a hovering phase into a forward flight because you're still at maximum thrust and you do something crazy and dynamic with the inflow field so that comes on top of things um we are like I said um looking at um can take off and and fly over and approach with the um chapter 13 of the regulations yeah so this is as far as we're concerned now these are the standard operations that we look at and that is that's fine JD sure you know again we don't have something flying uh Our Guest right now is that takeoff for us is going to be the loudest um personal opinion and just kind of what I'm pushing within the group is you know with the battery and being able to manage the battery system and what it's doing how much energy is there we pretty much all feel that you're going to have to have standardized approaches and they're going to have to be controlled by something other than a pilot a lot of times we talk about it and we call it replay mode will this vehicle so the Nexus have a free play mode or a pilot can get in there and just kind of do whatever they want and most of the time in our debates the answer comes back is no they aren't going to ever have the opportunity to do that because you can just burn through too much energy if you stay in a hover too long so that's that's where I'm at on it where we're at on it all right we'll go in reverse order with the panel yeah in addition to the hover operation which is the worst case scenario for the noise I would add to The Descent where there is the potential for a blade Vortex interaction that would be in addition to the hover operation yeah we're mostly focused on takeoff and Landing noise um it definitely isn't easy to find the loudest configuration um but in terms of like standard operating modes I think that's very difficult for different concepts for us there's hover and then there's high speed flight and then there's everything in between and everything in between we've got six propellers they can all tilt they can all change RPM they can all change blade pitch so it's not a unique situation at any of those speeds so it's very complicated there all right uh I I would Echo what some of the other panelists have mentioned uh we were expecting takeoff to be our loudest condition overall uh the vehicle is designed to operate both as a conventional takeoff and Landing vehicle as well as a vertical takeoff and Landing vehicle uh vital as as the other panelists have said comprises hover transition Cruise um the the notion of standardized operating procedures is something we are interested in establishing for certification but not as a standard operating procedure in the wild thank you okay uh so the next series of uh questions are going to be directly from the subgroups rather than uh combined in some fashion and so we'll start at the top with subgroup one and I'll direct this first to uh Jeremy uh I think it's an easy one for you to answer and hopefully so for the rest but uh on what research areas would you like to see Academia and or government Focus to help with vehicle acoustic issues in your industry yeah so this is part of why we had the presentation yesterday is the show um the noise Source identification uh Broadband noise predictions we are also partnering with a University team led by Boston University Virginia Tech on the NASA Uli to understand the different trim States the aircraft like us can trim at any AirSpeed at different ways by changing tilts and RPMs and blade pitches and so we want to figure out how to optimize it we also want to understand when we're operating in an urban Canyon what's the condition that might be more or less sensitive to gusts so that we can make sure that we're not just right on the precipice of a bad noise event if there's a little bit of a gust so certainly research in those areas Broadband methods you know the BPM method improvements to there and definitely more you know Research into propeller noise and more details as to what you know different geometries you know we're not really a helicopter rotor we're not really a propeller um you know in terms of like a standard fixed Wing propeller so we've got a little bit different physics we got a lot lower tip speeds so there's Reynolds numbers issues transition issues so definitely a lot of areas for research that we're trying to encourage okay yeah here yeah in addition to what my colleague mentioned the I would say most of our research now in the eve at all focus more on the exterior noise Community noise side and they overlooked the cabin noise the upper rotor impact on the cabin noise which is significant you you have multi-rotors sitting outside the cabin which is very close to the skin of the fuselage and the transmitting noise into the cabin that will be very significant to mitigate how to attenuate these noise levels from the helicopter levels that will be a challenge and that would require developing technology from the passive active noise cancellation into the cabin to make to maintain like what we call right comfort for the passenger without the need for a headset like in the helicopter kind you don't want to you want to achieve some noise level similar to the conventional commercial airline like when you have like 737 or you don't want to go higher than that levels if you achieve lower than that would be great but I don't think we'll be achieved at the first generation so development in the in that regard for the cabin noise I think would be very worthy to consider thank you and how about you till um yes I think those things have been have been mentioned already um yeah new modeling approaches are very interesting that can try to capture different flight situation and um maneuversed Dynamic effects especially rather changing info conditions and and lab harping configurations how to how to physically model these things that's very it's very far out that would be awesome in JD I'm sorry go ahead uh maybe I can maybe I can add a specific thing for us uh since we have adductor geometry it's very interesting to see how on to to investigate more systematically how the cutoff Behavior can be or is influenced by a an asymmetric and and also Dynamic inflow field because that is a sensitive phenomenon yeah uh thank you okay JD I think everything that mentioned that's been mentioned so far is is worth um people looking into organizations looking into the only other one that I will add is you know that's been unique and US tossing around ideas and trying to get a better understanding uh is prop sync and how prop sync is going to work within the motors within the way that the aircraft is put together within the amount of propellers that we have and how many blades um and you know I mean for us right now a lot of it will be just we need to get the aircraft up in the air and and start figuring it out but again I'm sure there's organizations out there doing it I'm sure that you all done some research into it but that's a big one for us okay how about you bring it home Ben all right uh I think there were two a little mention on top of what everybody else said uh both of which are being discussed in in this working group and in these technical meetings uh that is the the evaluation of isolated Motors you know accurate torque driven Motors uh you know being able to to understand those noise sources without having a rotor installed is a very challenging a discipline on the other one is just understanding Community perception public annoyance the the recent environmental survey didn't do any uh any benefit to our confidence in in what the public perception of these vehicles is so understanding what's driving uh that perception and more specifically how to quantify uh that perception you know what what metrics will accurately reflect the perception of the community around the operation of these vehicles thank you Steve's testing my ability to shuffle the deck here so we're going to mix it up on the order here and let Hill test me at the end see how well I did this comes from subgroup two one of my favorites um what would you like to see included in research studies by external organizations for full-scale testing what information would be relevant and most useful we are going to start with yahia yeah yeah that's a good question and I would say the what we have followed yesterday from the the number the ideal number of microphone array that would be really good for a full scale uh like kind testing um what is the best uh like uh array kind is it the snap snapshot which it was already talked about or just a circular array which was talked about at Lin at some point two years ago and of course not many people will be afford to buy all this mini microphone array so you will have limited the you will probably go from like 50 to 70 Max microphone so is there any um I would say standard way of flying over a noise test um operation especially or transition in addition to the flyover noise a hover is not really required in certification but the FAA will require to provide them some data from hover at certain that's a just for informal communication like at some point in one of the acoustic technical working group before the the required the OEM to provide them with some noise during hover although it is not part of the certification so is there any way to like develop a standard way for uh for OEM to to provide this whether it is like of course it is a single microphone there is the commercial airline is established the standard ways of Performing flyover test but for evitol is still not well defined whether we use the existing methodology in the CFR chapter 36 apart 36 whatever it is like for tilt rotors or for rotorcraft what if you have like mixed like a separate lift Crews like tilt rotors and the lift rotors what do you use in the in the certification is it a some of them like if you are under like 7 500 pounds you only use the flyover noise point but if you are above this threshold you will have to collect the three three points the take off the approach and the flyover so this kind of questions I would be interested to know more answers about then next the largest I think gain we could we could hope to see from that sort of research is in-flight noise Source modeling uh or I should say improvements to those capabilities uh understanding what each of the the elements of the vehicle is is contributing to the uh to the noise profile let's do JD next um I think for us it's it's also materials so as a propeller goes over a different material what is that acoustic profile and then also if there's different whole or whole patterns there or different shapes where air can actually go through the structure does that actually change the acoustic signature of the aircraft and what does that look like that's it Jeremy full-scale aircraft but the challenge of this industry is that all of our aircraft looked different the aircraft that might be of interest to me isn't probably going to be an interest to other companies but definitely the more data that's out there on open geometries and of full scale or at least large scale it was definitely very valuable I would love to see more data from you know full-scale testing either in a wind tunnel or more flights flight testing until yes we would obviously have a greater interest in inducted fan uh full-scale aircraft and their a variety of light um situations of dynamic Maneuvers and different um different operations in transition okay this next question from subgroup three is actually bordering on uh subgroup four but we'll go ahead and ask it and uh how about uh we'll take it first from JD the question is are you concerned that regulatory requirements for UAM noise levels when they're established will not be relevant to the needs of communities in which the UAM Vehicles will be operating so in other words are the uh are the regulatory requirements going to satisfy uh acceptability in some way so part of you just cut out during it but I think I can answer the question so um you know I think as an industry for this industry to go forward um there's going to have to be regulations put on it for the noise because I just for a quick example I mean I live at the end of Mid-Continent uh airport at the end of the runway I'm quite used to Jets and turbo props flying over most of the time I won't even look up but if a helicopter goes over I will look up or I'll go to the front door and see what kind it is again we can't have these things flying everywhere all the time and making all kinds of Racket like we have in the past so I would say yeah definitely we need to have the ability to have a strict rule or regulation that tells us what we have to meet and I think everybody should have to meet that same that same goal okay and since uh Ben you kind of alluded to this one in in the previous question when you take it yeah we are very concerned uh that these regulations are not going to be uh beneficial or or you know practical in terms of limiting uh the noise the standard that is currently called out in the FAA part 36 appendix K references the stage two limits which were introduced in 1988 which is when I was born so they're pretty old certainly if there was a vehicle to enter operation meeting stage two limits but not with much margin on those limits they would absolutely I think destroy the business case for our uh our whole environment so certainly we need to look at establishing more stringent regulations uh than what are currently in place and until from your perspective yes one second um as we are especially in the dialogue with the local authors we are quite um quite happy about the the process and we we're very investigating in the dialogue like there's also a he also opened up this innovative air Mobility Hub where they actually integrate um the the citizens and the local stakeholders into the perception of of new uh UAM noise and possible and concerns Etc so we are always very interested in having a an active dialogue with the authorities there that will help to integrate other um other interests and balance out the interest there so um I think the for the for the um for the regulatory requirements that will be um that will be a balanced thing in it okay thank you yeah here yeah yeah there must be some sort of like uh regulation to especially when you are flying into urban Suburban environment where you are very close to the people it's different from flying from airports but at the same time I look at it from a different way that you are still New Market new technology and you you don't want to start from a very strange regulation that especially in the first generation you will start with existing and gradually you implement more stringent requirements over the time as a technology or the market mature and Jeremy yeah I think is an important challenge the question is going to be whether there is going to be a one-size-fits-all national standard or whether it's going to be every single little city a municipality and County little area I think certainly initially it'll probably be much more of a local situation and there's going to be challenges of local communities and communicating with them what's their noise sources there's a presentation the other day about the National Park Service and about how they're doing Grand Canyon operations and how they're regulating them and giving different slots to different aircraft and how quiet our aircraft get more slots and I think that's something that might happen in future vertebrates that are in more noise sensitive locations that they might say that this aircraft can fly this aircraft can't or this aircraft can fly this many times a day in this aircraft can only fly a few times a day but I don't really think there's going to be a one-size-fits-all National Standard where they're going to set some limit and that's going to be enforced across the industry um I I'm quite highly skeptical that people in certain locations are going to accept a federal standard when they're going to want to write their own or they're going to want to have their own rules for you know how many people that nearby there are complaining so it's really important for our companies and our industry and you know government to have communications with these local communities and explain to them what's going to happen in the future and so it's not a surprise and that they're involved in the process from the beginning all right question from subgroup four is somewhat related to what you just answered so this will be an easy one considering that there are currently no noise regulations prescribed for Urban Air Mobility which 14 CFR part 36 appendix Iko Annex 16 chapter do you consider a best fit for your noise certification of your product appendix FG fixed Wing appendix HJ helicopter appendix K tilt rotor so I am going to start with Jeremy uh you know we're obviously pretty far along in the certification process and we're using appendix k so the Kate for tilt rotor so that was a short answer yep uh we'll go to Ben next uh we are still in discussions with the FAA on uh Which chapter or chapters uh to proceed with as I said before our vehicle has the ability to operate both as a sea tall uh and VTOL aircraft uh thus both the appendix G fixed wing for sea tall and appendix k for vertical takeoff and Landing would apply I will add though that the the language in appendix K is quite explicitly written uh for what is now the Leonardo 609 it assumes a very common operation for that vehicle that doesn't apply to I think any of the current vehicles that are that are being designed so there's a bit of rework that has to be done in establishing a third base was based on Phoenix Sky JD Ben kind of answered for uh e-aviation even though he's not a part of it I appreciate it saying it's duplicated what he said nailed it all right then I'm going to move right on to yahia it's very easy if you have the old tilt rotors in your vehicle you choose the support key because it is for tilt rotors but if you have like mixed lift rotors tilt rotors what do you use would you use the helicopter rotor craft which is the part J or H which is not applicable so would you use the Tilt rotors because you have tilt rotors in your vehicle so that's the uncertainty in this area till yeah like I mentioned already it's um it's chapter 13 of their Chaos on NX and with the the um concessions or deviations communicated through this special condition okay uh thank you and uh we're going to go back to uh subgroup one and uh go through another rotation here so this has to do with tools or computational tools are you using for low mid and or High Fidelity acoustic simulations and do these any of these tools affect your acoustic design hopefully so uh and if you are not using computational tools what features uh would they need for you to use them so uh how about um Hill yes um yes of course we do use computational tools on basically any every level so we do have um we do with scale resolving Source tools and the type of ldsds that we apply then there's a lot of analytical semi-empirical modeling of to try out quick design optimizations and predictions there's uh again I'm discretized propagation software that we use more focused at the cabin noise concerns so how much do our engines radiate noise towards the the fuselage and finally there's there are a maneuver modeling far field tools that will that project our measured or computed noise of on an engine level towards uh towards the flight envelope of the aircraft um sorry I can't mention more names yeah yeah that's fine um Jeremy so our blade was designed most of overflow so I was running a lot of overflow and for Harbor noise but the Broadband noise prediction stuff in those tools aren't very good they weren't enough for us to help with the design so obviously we did a lot of testing in terms of you know High Fidelity and I think we showed the other day you know we're using uh overflow and WAP WAP for fire noise for High Fidelity where for low Fidelity we use our casts mainly for structural Dynamics but there's some arrow that comes out of that but we're really trying to you know part of publishing this data and with the flight test noise is we're going to look at more tools more fidelities of tools to try to figure out what those tools can predict and what they can't predict I think in general we need to probably go to higher Fidelity to get more accuracy but it's about whether that helps us right now we're focused on our takeoff and Mining noise so we want to try to find a good tool set and a methodology for improving our takeoff and Landing noise Ben all right lots lots of uh comments okay for the aerodynamics in terms of low and mid Fidelity you know High Rapid turnaround we're using the dust tool out of polymy the I was butcher the name of the Milano Polytechnic Institute it's a Vortex particle method very very rapid Solutions high accuracy when we go to high resolution we do use overflow for verification validation but we're seeing good agreement between those two tools in general for the acoustic designs themselves in terms of broadband the the lowest Fidelity there are when you make a few limiting assumptions about you know the design there are some close form solutions that allow us to at least understand that space and where we can where we can feasibly design the the rotor the tools that we're particularly using are the Brooks marcolini method and a in-house build of UC Davis's quiet fly model um we're seeing seeing good results from both of those admittedly the the BPM model that I'm using is also built-in house and has some modifications that uh improve some things to it in terms of tonal we are also leveraging PSU pop-up uh across the board it's a very capable tool okay yeah yeah yeah we use different levels of fidelity depends on where we are in the design phase so early in the conceptual design phase we use just simple Excel sheets like based on the like earlier NASA uh based model like NASA guten kind symbol simplified models that's very early in the design phase once we get deep into the design we use some sort of like mid Fidelity like charm kind for rotor craft noise prediction we use it mainly for like tonal noise um of course with the Whopper or a piece you up if we go High Fidelity once we have more defined design more detailed design we go to cfd based like Star CCM or powerful kind simulation we lean into more star CCM especially for the higher table speed for Broadband noise we we use both an assign up to and we use quite fly as well to give us some Fidelity like mid Fidelity kind prediction and JD but we're the same we kind of use the standards of what it would have been mentioned uh the things that are a little bit unique about us is Bill having you know uh 80 years or so of uh history they have been creating their own databases and then on the Macaulay side I think actually 100 years of experience they've been creating their own databases and then also the same with Textron Aviation um so with that as I mentioned before earlier though we haven't paid as much attention to noise as we are right now so as far as what we're predicting and what we're actually seeing that's what we still need to get on the test stands and understand so we believe that our in-house databases are going to be they're going to work and they're going to work well but again they haven't been validated all right we'll move on to subgroup two what is the most important aspect of the vehicle noise and acoustic testing do you need to effectively address Community noise in the vertaport I'm going to make my life easy I'm going down the rows so yahia why don't you go first yeah I think one of the important thing regarding report operation will be the what is the acoustic footprint will be modifying the the surrounding around the verti port with the operation of this evital vehicles Jeremy um yeah definitely take half lining noise um that's why we did the national campaign test with NASA's focused on a lot of different approaches and departures um so definitely we're that's the area where we're going to have to be communicating with the communities and understanding what's the best way to operate and what's our noise levels in those situations pretty similar answer uh the the operation types so you know the Ingress and egress the number of flights the perception of safety uh of these vehicles as well as the uh the demographic both the uh the the topographic layout you know whether it's a canyon or an open environment as well as the uh Community makeup so whether we're talking uh you know industry hospitals highways each disposal affected JD so I think in the past how it used to be with airports at an airport in a major city would go way out in the outskirts of town and then slowly uh you know housing would build up around it and then from there would become complaints and then there would be new regulations what's unique about this is we're trying to start in cities uh in more populous areas and what that's going to look like with the again the perception like has been already mentioned but we're having that feeling that hey look we aren't going to be going out even further into town with these we're going to be going in closer so I mean keeping them as quiet as possible is going to have to be one of the number one requirements again to get acceptance I keep going back to that for for us to get acceptance of the industry that we're trying to create we're going to have to be quiet thank you tell yeah and of course I can only agree it's it's about acoustic footprint that we want to minimize especially in takeoff and Landing conditions but it's also about the um it's also about the feedback of perception of uh of psychoacoustic um aspects of of stakeholder neighboring communities perception of the noise nature that is of course interesting to us okay the next question uh has to do with con Ops a little bit um and that is uh from what we've seen in videos and so forth and and certainly flight tests everything has been during the daytime uh so uh this question is from subgroup three our nighttime operation that is those between 10 p.m and 7 A.M part of your con Ops and if so what can you share about differences between how you intend to operate during the daytime versus at night time and why don't we start Ben so I will defer to our con Ops designers we're using a tool that we built in-house called agility Prime that is assessing the availability you know the market uh the needs of Transportation you know hours of the day days of the week um so I I not trying to skirt the issue but uh it's it's something we are still assessing as to you know the individual needs of each market whether or not it makes sense for us to offer such operations at night uh you know if there's no demand we're certainly not gonna uh try to make it available in terms of operating at night we are sensitive to to the The increased sensitivity from the public so we are making the pretty standard assumption uh that's applied in in the DNL metric which is a 10 DB increase in that sensitivity during during that period and Jeremy um yeah I mean we definitely are looking at uh those type of operations late at night and early in the morning but again it's only where it's economical so yeah I think you can imagine that people take off and land at an airport at uh pretty early and pretty late but obviously it'll depend on the vert report whether we operate early in the morning and early tonight for economics and for noise reason yeah yeah it will definitely impact the business case we limit the operation during this night time but it will depend on mostly on the local regulations because not all local regulation will be like very strict like some areas are very strict to fly at night so these areas probably will not be feasible to to operate at night but some areas they are more no no specific regulation so it will be depends on the Where You Are [Music] and JD so we we plan to operate uh around the clock to again it all plays into what the business case looks like um again right now as far as we're planning that we would we would be a provider of the aircraft somebody else would be the operator but the intent is to operate Around the Clock okay I think we've planned this out pretty well so Brenda there's one more question uh thanks Ben from subgroup four I'm out of note cards so this has to be the last one and after that we'll open it up to all of you this is from some group four it is uncertain when noise regulations will be established for the emerging UAM aam Market are you more concerned with stringent noise regulations maybe imposed unnecessarily limiting the market or that noisy aircraft could be entered into service negatively impacting public acceptance of the market and I believe we will finish up with our remote ones first so we'll start with till uh yes um so far like I said we are in this close um interchanging process with yasa and with local uh sometimes the local authorities more with the national um regulatory authorities called to to coordinate with a with the local stakeholders and um and through this IAM Hub there should be guidance for communities and um I so for that reason because it's it's a it's a very integrative process I am we're not we're not concerned too much in either direction um at this point JD so for us um I mean public perception is going to be a huge part in acceptance of these aircraft especially initially on um if we go out there and um you know again safety has to be of utmost priority but then after that is um what where are they going where are the aircraft landing and then how loud are they if we go in and we have something where they're allowed to be relatively loud um and we start getting a lot of them out of there I think that we'll end up having quick restrictions put on us anyways so to me let's let's start with the you know as quiet as can be start getting the general public used to what we're doing as we're you know out doing test flights as they're starting to see these for the first time again to most people they're going to be quite unique anyways because most of them don't even look like a helicopter we're going to have to be working with the public a lot on on this so that's that's where I'm about with it we have to do it first if not we'll kill our own industry yeah I'm not really concerned about the certification based on the existing levels but I would worry more about the public acceptance Jeremy uh yeah I mean we're pretty far along the certification path so we're not concerned with that the levels there um obviously these aircraft aren't going to all of a sudden you know appear by the hundreds in every city they're going to be City by City slowly introducing them um so we'll be incumbent on the companies operating in those cities to operate quietly communicate with the cities I think it'll be an interesting Dynamic whether people differentiate between different aircraft or whether it's they're all the same but yeah it's going to be a challenge especially as we scale up to bigger and bigger operations newer newer cities more heliports more operations at each location so definitely will be a challenge obviously noise is very critical and that's why we've been involved in this quite a while and that's why it's been a major priority in every focus of our design Ben so the current regulations the trend and the regulations doesn't give us much concern in the way of uh you know being overly restrictive or limiting uh our ability to certify the vehicle but I I am very concerned that the the lack of stringency will allow uh people to you know operations to exist that will offset that public acceptance I think there is a a Nuance that perhaps Engineers uh apply to the difference between these vehicles and helicopters we see them as being distinctly different I think the public will see them as simply something that's loud that's flying around and so it's a very quick jump to say that well they're pretty much a helicopter doing the same thing as a helicopter almost as loud as a helicopter in a bad situation and if that is the progression in the mindset then that will almost certainly lead to you know a severe restriction of our ability to operate thank you can I add something sure yeah the what the Rob stoker actually showed in the first day about the the short skirt the perception of the people which was 90s compared to was it what is the national survey the recent one very alarming which means that the people perception to the noise is changing it's not like 65 DNL is acceptable level it is even lower than that so which is very alarming for us thank you for that comment okay so that uh concludes the moderated portion and uh hopefully there are a bunch of questions that have come up in the chat James is shaking his head over there I will um just uh as we open this uh segment say for the in-person attendees please state your name and organization when you're asking a question and as much as possible please direct your question to a particular panelist or panelists so that everybody gets a chance and we can get through as many questions as possible and then lastly for those that are online I use that thumbs up to elevate the question to uh those that are most important so um with that how about a question from the audience Sandy thank you I'm Sandy Lancaster with Dallas Fort Worth airport I've been in working in noise for over 30 years obviously started when I was 12. um the one thing I've noticed you know obviously noise is subjective um and it's very difficult to predict how people will react um so number one oftentimes you do Outreach to people but they don't really feel like this this is not going to affect me so you can't really generate the interest when you're trying to be proactive but then if you implement the flight and they don't like it you know now you've got a public issue that you did your best to avoid so it's getting the right folks to the table to and help them understand how this affects you I mean that's kind of a key component the other thing I've noticed is particularly when you focus on broadband noise the loudest aircraft may not be the one that causes the challenges back in the day when they used to fly checks at night some of our biggest offenders from the community were GA prop aircraft it was the time of day they operated it was the prop noise so not loud but it was a frequency issue tonal issue and so those are some of the challenges that I've seen as a as I've worked in noise is really trying to understand how the community is going to react and be as proactive as possible and then recognizing it's not all about Broadband it's about it's about oh there are many other factors so I appreciate everybody's comments and I really appreciate the Keen awareness of really engaging the community and getting that public acceptance so that this industry could move forward thank you Sandy James All right so uh I've I've had some time to collate the the questions that came in online and uh I'm going to uh apologize to Steve this is going to be to the entire panel uh but uh lotar Birch from DLR alamoa's and Duran bogalt I'm certain I've butchered all three of their names have very similar questions uh so we understand right each UAM vehicle is acoustically unique and substantially different than other air vehicles that are out there so does the Day evening noise level or the day night level Contours appropriately capture the events from UAM Vehicles especially operated in larger numbers what do we need to capture more than just simple a waiting type things and then what psychoacoustic metrics do you think are useful for your particular vehicles so uh three questions in one and for all of the pair I kind of want Duran to answer all of those he's the expert on all these um uh so you were you asked about uh DNL um DNL is certainly A first order um we we are looking more at the time variance of the signal which is not captured by that um there there really aren't any metrics that are capturing that as a whole uh Beyond just looking at you know deviation from a mean uh to a maximum um so I would say a metric that captures the the time variation of the signal uh is certainly one that would be needed to uh give us more confidence that uh the community will be able to accept these levels yeah I would you know agree it's it's important to understand the metric um in the context of the ambient environment that a person's in DNL is not overly useful I would say and it's not we want to make sure that noises are you know how a person Hears A noise is in their environment and whether it's you know as Sandy was saying whether you know a helicopter is quite loud and it you know is disturbing where maybe it's a wave level might not be that different from another aircraft but it's very disturbing so we've definitely designed our aircraft to try to reduce the tones and try to blend in with the environment you're able to hear in a flyover noise and you know obviously we're focusing on that and trying to understand with different metrics whether it's Blend or time varying loudness and very much supportive of research efforts and Outreach efforts to different communities play the sounds and to have them introduced to what the sounds are going to be before they're getting introduced and so that we have some Community feedback and engagement early on in the process is really critical yeah I would say the their Night level is a daily average dosage of the noise exposure but it's not quite represent the annoyance so that's why in our subgroup 3 we are working in trying to come up with like a metric foreign currently for supernal we use the existing metrics in the certification just to be closed like DBA kind if it is like EPL current effective perceived noise level if we can find out whether these metrics are applicable to Eve at all or we might think about other different metrics chill or JD oh sorry we'll just I can just break it down and just my thoughts it really comes down to on the chief engineer side is it annoying or is it not annoying and is it loud or is it not loud so if it's perceived to be loud and annoying that's definitely way worse than it being you know uh relatively quiet and annoying we're in the end we're just trying to get too quiet so that's where I'll break it down but everybody else on the stage was I mean very similar answer to yeah the same for us like EPL is an interesting metric we are above um the DNA El we are interested in single noise events that that should not be excessively allowed and so the Dynamics of the um of the phenomenon plus tonality is a is obviously a a factor that we pay attention to I'd like to uh Circle back to Sandy's uh questions Sandy or or statement I I didn't hear the question so much but uh it's fine uh out of that though I I formulated one so I'm uh being up here I could take the liberty and ask it and I'll ask it of the uh those that are out front uh with vehicles so uh bent and Jeremy and uh till uh What uh kind of Outreach um activities are you thinking of as you field your vehicles uh so actually Joby and I had a I should say Archer and Joby had a similar series of presentations uh very close in in timing uh showing off the operation of the vehicles introducing the public to the vehicle itself the the concept of the operation as well as a nominal operation of the vehicle uh in an airport setting uh in terms of how we are going to introduce the the larger public to it Archer's approach is somewhat of a soft open which is introducing these vehicles in existing routes uh routes that the public wouldn't be surprised to see a vehicle flying through so as I mentioned Newark and our Chicago routes those are not going to be a surprise it will slowly introduce the public to these vehicles and then we can use that as a driving force to then uh you know engage the community further and provide more more information yeah I'll say you know we want to reach out to local organizations uh particularly local politicians local city council members one one advantage that we have is we're fly in public almost every day and almost every day we have representatives of different organizations coming to witness a flight test and to really see it firsthand and to hear it firsthand watching videos on YouTube are great watching you know headphone experiences that we can bring to different communities is an important way to reach out to different communities and sort of explain to them this is what it's going to sound like with high confidence because you know these are actual recordings but yeah I think it's important to reach out both to local communities local politicians and really try to get their buy-in from the beginning about the benefits of this new technologies going to bring yeah similar for us we are we were interacting with the the aviation agencies and also National authorities to have them with uh flight tests as possible and I mean yeah mostly work through that and obviously uh YouTube videos these kinds of things at the moment yeah thank you we have a question Jim Potter uh Department of the Air Force and chair of Defense on his working group uh I've got a bunch of questions but let's start with uh data transparency I heard all of you say that and let's let's focus on joby's uh to make Steve happy um I heard all of you say yeah confidentiality concerns but my concern is that the federal government can't buy any of your products unless we can get through the National Environmental Policy Act process which requires everybody to show their homework so what are the limits of your data sharing data transparency and when will we be able to get over that so that we can buy your products and allow you to use the national airspace system um you know so I'll say various entities of the US government do have full access to our data I'm not particularly sure if you have access to it or not um yeah I think there's yeah there's some issues with that but yeah um we're being as open as we can and you know things will change for you know that type of certification operating in the National airspace yeah it's going to be um flight test and we're gonna have to show that data when that happens but that'll happen with the certified aircraft we you know how much of that's relevant with our pre-production prototype some of it is so it's not um yeah we're showing a good amount of data I can throw in there uh on our side of course we sell stuff to you it seems like you know every every other week we're selling the government something new we train the Air Force and navy and the Marines how to fly um and we also have many many aircraft that we deliver as far as special missions are concerned our data is open and we are definitely willing to work with the government on whatever they want to see okay uh yeah I've got a question for you maybe Joey and Archer would be just a start if you want to keep it kind of small uh one maybe one's a comment is you all kind of talked about DNL not being right but you're planning on flying in and out of a lot of airports as a starting point and they're going to be going through part 150 studies so you may want to really think about airports and the DNL contour and then as you go into um those things I would say have talked to some of the groups around there there's a lot of anti-noise groups at their various airports and you'll get a very different kind of reaction from folks and you all talked about certification not really being your concern and being able to certify the airplane and it's more about public perception so I guess the question is how quiet do you think you need to get to be okay with public perception yeah uh if if if I had an answer if others had an answer I think everybody would would already know it um we we are we are working within the uh the boundary conditions that are apparent so obviously the certification standards as they exist are not sufficient right that's a that's a known upper bound uh the lower bound the target ideally would uh be ambient of course right I mean if we can if we can blend behind the ambient then there's no impact and and we're done uh the open question beyond that is how high above the ambient is acceptable uh you know both for single operation and continued use and how close is that to uh certification standard versus ambient yeah I'll say you know we've demonstrated 45 DBA for flyover noise at 500 meters height and then at takeoff and Landing noise 65 DBA at 100 meters away um that's just what we've demonstrated but obviously it's those are just DBA numbers it's important to understand how they're interfacing in the background noise of the community and how whether directly where the person is matters but you know we're working with those uh rules and those regulations and local communities and you know I think we want to be distinct from helicopters as much as we can but that's what people want to compare us to and we need to have good comparisons to those aircraft which is probably why we have that video where you people can hear and when we showed that video we didn't show Numbers it was just what do you hear what's that your perception of noise and I think that's a sound quality and I think that's very important uh when we're talking about communities is to actually play noises anyone else on the panel before we go yeah we try to design to be around the 65 DNL level but the business and the new the national survey 65 is not adequate so you have to make it even quieter than 65 which make it even harder and challenging and if we talk about single event versus multi-event how many operations we limit the operation around the verti port and the depends on the vertical selection at the same time if you are if you are very important close to a highway where your ambient is very high so that will give you some margin for operation but if you have it in near like a residential area where the ambient is very quiet of course it will limit your operation okay let's take one more from the audience and then go back to the uh online go ahead bill yeah yeah uh question now um further noise reduction uh particularly in the operation side uh like that fly neighborly uh that we see today for helicopters and so what do you see as a potential down the road to opportunities in on the operation side how can reduce the noise specific to noise sensitive points is that directed to any particular panelist uh no we can start with Ben okay cool um let's see there is sorry I'm processing the question um so our our vehicle is is designed for a pretty simple uh pretty uh low pilot effort so to that end we are designing a uh trim line that will be optimized in a number of uh regions uh not the least of which is is of course power but of course optimizing the uh the trim line to provide a quiet profile such that it doesn't take extensive Knowledge from the pilot extensive training to operate in a uh quiet manner I would say conversely it's beneficial because that means that it's actually harder for the pilot to enter into a high noise operational State whether whether knowing so or not um so providing that restriction or at least the uh optimization such such that General operation of the vehicle will maintain a quiet footprint um as well there are certainly profiles that can be flown the fly neighborly for helicopters has you know shown similarly um the the manner in which you fly in and out the you know Reigns of climb and things are very impactful on the footprint so that can also be a applicable approach for us yeah I'll say you know our control system is we don't have a pilot that has six arms that's going to control each tilt in each RPM and each tilt so it's going to be the software and so there's certainly a lot of research and development into the software over the next couple years to fly as quiet as possible it's again partly why we're working with academic research on trim for how to take off and land in a robust manner but it's going to be the software on the aircraft and that's subject to uh that's why we're doing a lot of flight tests and we were able to get a lot of data out of the national campaign test of a lot of different takeoffs and landings and really understand you know what makes a better one or a worse one and try to develop metrics but it's also going to have to be customized a little bit to the vertaport where you might be more or less sensitive to certain noise areas at a particular location so it's definitely not going to be a simple solution or customized to different locations in the aircraft and working with multi-disciplinary uh areas of the company further it's controls safety and Noise no matter you do to make the rotor quieter you still you will get a point where the noise will be an issue based on the operation the number of like 10 Vehicles flying at the same how many events um so that's why the the first generation of Eve at all will be more into the urban Suburban environment and then that one once the technology mature like um several years from now 10 years you can expand this operation into the the quieter communities that's my what I'm thinking like in initially you will not be able to fly in a quiet environment like rural areas you will be still very high above the ambient unless the people will complain of course yeah once the people complain which there was a cricket case in Australia Google operated like a drone like delivery and the the drones were like flying very close to the people houses and it was very very loud so start not allowed relatively loud relative to the ambient that's why the people start to complain there so that's why the focus for the first generation will be more into the urban Suburban environment and quickly uh till or JD if you want to chime in on that before we go back to online oh sorry um I I guess the the more the more knowledge we can gather and and understand uh especially transient phenomena and flight operation and maneuver details and their influence on on no specifics to together with the understanding better what what bugs people what uh people find annoying of in detail there is I believe is quite some some margin still to further reduce noise and perceived annoyance of noise in the future kind of the same as everybody else but I mean when we're starting to you know verticals out there and we're starting to put together set approaches I mean just being simple with it and you know having that approach go over a parking lot instead of a housing area are going to be the things that are going to make a big difference nothing more to add okay James All right so uh we have a question from online from lothar Birch uh DLR uh he didn't Target it directly but uh I will just to keep this going correctly uh so JD the question is uh to you um are you looking into toroidal propellers as discussed by MIT and can you provide any comments so now as of right now we're not I mean I've watched the videos and they are a lot of fun um but uh as of right now we are not doing that all right and uh I'll ask the next question came from uh Ryan bajoric uh so this one is to Ben at Archer you made a statement in your opening remarks that Archer's vehicle will blend into the environmental background noise can you share what studies archers done that supports that statement or yet to be done and at what scale have the studies been done or will be done also follow-up to uh slightly related uh are you excited to see the midnight or the maker vehicle in United Airlines app uh cleared to land and now you can play it uh yes I I am very excited uh to see that announcement come out um so the the question was about uh whether or not the vehicle or how we've established the vehicle will blend into the background is all right um So to that extent uh I I didn't mean to uh to imply that there's been a large series of studies done certainly we haven't done um any sort of community assessment of that what I was referring to was simply uh the overall levels of the vehicle relative to the ambient and as Joby has demonstrated uh already um we have we have not publicly announced any of this information but our measurements do indicate that the the flyover noise level is below ambient which suggests that uh the vehicle will not be heard on top of that we are also looking at uh you know pod probability of detection and to that extent we are seeing very low levels of probability of detection from our vehicle relative to the ambience in which we are testing thank you the discussion of of single event metrics and ambient is a little troubling again in the NEPA context because you're all planning to fly you're all planning to have certified aircraft you're all going to be flying and NEPA requires cumulative impacts so can you speculate a little bit about the value of DNL when all of you all of your aircraft are in the airspace kind of like those electric scooters that are all over our sidewalks who is that directed to Jim one who hasn't had a question yet please so um yeah that's a lot of speculation but I think this is part of the process of of [Music] finding out if and where there's new regulation needed and on the national level or even on a on a um on a local level and um like I said I think that that both tonality and single noise uh single event noise metrics are of concern and and we try to optimize with respect to those as well and not just on an overall time average approach cake of gold texberg there's been a lot of talk about um steady state and vehicle vehicle interactions but there's been very little talk about gust response or atmospheric turbulence ingestion that are particularly a problem in these Urban Canyons uh that you know the operations are designed around um what are your solutions for that either from an engineering or a con op standpoint I'll insert partially we are working with the NASA Eli with Boston University and Virginia Tech and Emery riddle and that is one element of that research is to better understand that those effects but you definitely want an aircraft that's robust and isn't overly sensitive to Gus we definitely have done a ton of flight testing in a different windy environments the operations that we do now are not at a very low wind environment the the NASA flight test was at very low wind but we do a lot of flight tests now that are in much higher wind environments to better understand that to clarify I'm specifically looking at the acoustic difference not the Control Authority of rotors make very different sounds when they're ingesting uh turbulent flow yes the NASA uoi is looking at Acoustics in those situations still would you uh you you alluded to the inflow and its effect on the uh on the noise generated in transition you want to chime in on on this uh question yeah this is a this is a key [Music] um um key topic as I think I understood also from Japanese presentation uh yesterday on explaining parts of the noise emission that our yeah on okay that do depend on on gusts on on turbulence levels and this is uh to me physically on how the the inflow hits the it's the fan this is very closely connected also to um to motions of of our flap of um and of the variations of the incoming flow field uh so that's it's an expansion of the dynamic flight Dynamics all right another question online and all from Benjamin Bernard and I'll Target this to yahia although Acoustics is multi-physics by Essence if you had to pick and focus on one single design parameter or area to improve acoustically which one would you pick and why yeah the major parameter for Acoustics in the upper rotor is the type speed or tape number that would be the decisive to impact the acoustics thank you I can expand on that actually go ahead um our experiences actually found both from our our own uh internal work and our you know competitive analysis um it appears that most of the industry is going to be below uh at least a hover tip mock number of about 0.5 um so that certainly addresses uh what you hear was referring to in terms of driving the levels um however below 0.5 you start getting some interesting interactions where it's no longer predominantly tonal now you do have an interaction of both tonal uh Broadband effect um certainly motor if there's there so there there is a an increased capability to design the Spectrum as opposed to having it fall out when it's just being driven by the tip speed all right I've got a personal question so we're done with the online one so if anybody online has any more uh please add them into the chat uh but uh I'll direct this one uh back to yahia as well so we've seen uh from Joby uh over over the years that their design has changed significantly uh we uh you know Archer has at least alluded to the fact that multiple design changes have have been made so from supernal's uh perspective do you anticipate you know we saw some images today of the vehicle do you anticipate further design uh modifications to maybe location to the rotors or something along those lines we looking for improvements we will not stop continuous Improvement in the design and we we're always looking for from the acoustic perspective to get the quietest design possible which is uh not only meet the noise certification but also to be publicly accepted so we are keeping this in consideration when we design not just to meet the noise levels which is uh like whatever existing levels but to to have a certain margin or to make sure that the public will not be annoyed by that noise level I'll ask one to keep things going here a little more futuristic uh thought I suppose so uh retrofitting for noise is a challenge in the commercial subsonic transport area for sure I think we in Acoustics get excited when there's a clean sheet kind of starting point for this industry which is it's wonderful having noise is a driving design factor in many respects and coupling that with the Schultz curve changes that we've seen over time is there any concern ghost the panel members that you might see that stair step down and and while certification regulations might be comfortably met as the industry grows 10 years from now you see that stair step down and are you able to maybe additional noise technology on existing aircraft you go back to another clean sheet has has there been any thought or concern in that Realm yeah I'll say you know continual improvements um you know the 737-200 and dash you know 400 and 6800 like I don't think these aircraft are going to have those small marginal improvements over time I think there will be uh different configurations over time and pretty major changes to configurations so definitely you know aircraft right now you know is quiet and the goal is always going to be to get quieter get faster get more manufacturable get cheaper there's so much improvement that we can have in the future and it's really exciting to be you know a part of this industry at this time where we can have lots of changes and where it's very Innovative and lots of new ideas that are tested and tried all right so uh James Stevenson I'm gonna uh Channel my inner uh Krish Ahuja with a question he had uh Monday to the liner folks I'm going to ask it to you guys slightly differently so if we could reduce the noisier vehicle by xdb right how much thrust penalty or top speed uh range payload would you be willing to lose to meet that quieter acoustic metric the the first question I think from a design standpoint is what do I get for it so I I get X number of DB reduction but what is that do for me in terms of the operation of the vehicle so sort of back to you know does that does that enable further operation right I mean are we already at a point where further reduction of the noise doesn't you know greatly affect the annoyance if that's the case then you know certainly we wouldn't drive toward it um but if there is if there is a means to increase the operation uh based on lowering those levels then uh from from where we stand as long as it doesn't destroy the business case right as long as we're still making a profit um we have shown that we are willing to sacrifice on the performance uh efficiency of the vehicle if it means lowering the acoustic footprint to add to what the um mentioned there will always be a compromise between performance and the noise so performance people will will always ask you to increase the tip speed but we will tell them no let us keep it within the 0.5 Mach number to keep the noise levels to Affordable or acceptable levels so we will there will also be a battle like they want to increase to have more performance but is for Eve at all I wouldn't go excessive in the Mach number in the Deep speed or the noise levels because if we bring a vehicle into the market sooner with a very loud and the Community start to complain it could kill the technology so we don't want to rush and they get some allowed vehicle into the market into the urban environment and people will start complaining and then no more evito like what happened there like in several other communities so we don't want to be the noise to be the the decisive factor to to make this technology um like going nowhere okay I'm going to interject at this point as we're getting close to the end here uh I'd like to thank all the panelists to my knowledge this is the uh the first time that we've had uh a variety of uh companies uh coming on at the same time and giving at different points of view and uh both Brenda and I and and hopefully you all really appreciate that fact we've tried to make it interesting for you and hopefully that's been the case if there are any uh remaining uh questions that are in the uh chat I don't know that there are but maybe we can get those out to you and and you can address those and again I'd like to thank you all for a Illuminating conversation and hopefully we can do this again thank you [Applause]

Channel: NASA Langley Research Center

Views: 2,401

Keywords: NASA, Langley Research Center, aeronautics, exploration, science, research, technology, engineering

Id: WPODSoaESTw

Length: 149min 53sec (8993 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 31 2023